For the ___ people still invested, Shandy released a video today thoroughly responding to Birdman’s response: th-cam.com/video/V9ncg9ADHWc/w-d-xo.html Given how ill-inducingly awful Birdman’s counters were, along with completely misrepresenting my video and my character, I didn’t feel like making one myself was a good use of my time. But Shandy decided to do god’s work and give our winged friend a long overdue ego check. Give it a watch if you somehow think his video holds up.
Not true, public does ignore actual evidence but that happens when things fit their propaganda. Between Mysterio and Spiderman, the public has no need to take sides especially when there is overwhelming evidence against against one of them
@@taherkagdi2781 I mean the same group that wanted superheroes to follow laws and procedures in civil war would benefit greatly by slandering one of those superheroes using tech to mass kill civilians- even enough ti get certain news outlets to gloss over some evidence
Its because they couldn't talk about how Doctor Strange: MoM was supposed to be released first and how America Chavez was the one supposed to be casting the spell (as we see her learning magic at the end of that movie), but she doesn't know the consequences of altering it, then screws the spell up, which mixes with here universal powers which causes the variants to show up. But the writers talked about it lol. There's a whole other comment thread about this somewhere on this video.
@@CodiusRed and then the ending was her using Multiversal portal powers to bring in Tobey and Andrew. But MoM got release date swapped and the whole story for that movie was rewritten.
What's really funny about the Tobey-Peter talking about Harry trying to kill him thing, is that Ned could have just asked Andrew - who could have been like "Well... I did... Until he took a goblin serum and tried to kill me." you could even have had Tobey go like "Huh... My friend Harry did that too, whaddya know."
@@gabrielbarros493 yeah rereading it now, me too haha. If I can remember correctly, I think I was referencing something in the video about the way Tobey talks about his Harry and how it was contrived and didn't really match how Tobey would have viewed their relationship. I think I was providing an alternative where Ned asks Andrew about HIS best friend instead, and when he explains about the events of ASM2, Tobey could confirm that something similar happened to HIS best friend. That way Ned would still have his fears compounded, so we could still get the joke in the movie, but the characters wouldn't feel miswritten.
@@Doddser This makes way more sense It's feels more natural to have Andrew Peter talk about how Harry tried to kill him after taking a serum and then Tobey Peter said Harry shared the same powers similar to the Goblin (I'm not sure if he knows Harry went into Norman chamber) and then you have Ned be worried that he'll end up to be a super villain for his Peter and promises he won't do that Fixing the contrived scene, referencing the old films and fitting in with the past films a 3 in 1
@@SoulKrimsonThe entire point of that was just to set up the awkward I promise I wont try to kill you joke to Peter, there would have been no need for a whole conversation because we know the meaning.
I think adding the scene where Peter defeats Strange with "geometry" in the "You can't expect Peter to use his resources reasonably under stress" part would've added a little more kick to the point.
to be fair that scene was also pretty bullshit. The obscene mental boost you'd need to pull that off would make Peter the smartest man on earth by a fucking landslide. It'd be one thing if it was "oh, shit, I know these geometric patterns, I'll let my intuition take the wheel since I already know a bit of what's going on here and I'm betting strange isn't anticipating it" but he was actively talking as if he was doing the calculations in his head. Even if we accept that that is *_possible_* as a result of his enhanced spider-senses (which would be an entirely new power we never otherwise see) it would still mean he has the mental capacity to do near-any arbitrary mathematical operations at *_least_* including complex real-time trig & calculus (since the numbers would be changing in real time) several dozen times parallelized (since each individual webbing would be it's own set of calculations) in a matter of seconds with a mere superficial understanding of the fields. (since he would only be a highschool graduate by the time of this scene implying, at best, he has just taken Calculus 1) If the scene was written so that it was just him intuiting and approximating that would be one thing, but the scene is written as him actually performing these math operations in his head which is just obscenely OP.
@@robonator2945 to be fair, in universe it makes no sense, but out of universe peter implies that hes constantly doing physics and math calculations for proper webswinging. so i guess its believable like that? but yeah in the movie no.
@@robonator2945It’s not a new ability. It’s always been established that Peter uses his intelligence to calculate the trajectory of objects he tosses and him swinging around. Some of it is Spidey Sense, but mathematics have always played a part as well.
@@JosepiThe13th ah yes, calculating trajectories, that thing that literally every human ever does everytime they throw a ball, is the exact same as processing dozens to hundreds of simultanious multi-variable calculus equations over trigonometric functions in real time accounting for both radial and cartesian changes over time to tie precise self-closing nets within seconds while flying through the air. This is like arguing that it's totally reasonable for timmy to make a quantum super computer because they make cheap DIY Calculator kits for children. Saying this is off by orders of magnitude would be an insult to the very concept of measurement. Tesla could just about compute moderately complicated integrals in his head because he had a very very *_very_* rare case of synesthesia that made his brain excellent at on-the-fly approximations and he is still remembered as one of the worlds greatest inventors. ( a condition which had serious downsides mind you because it meant he was relying on his gut rather than actual knowledge, this is why he got so fixated on things like wireless power despite them being infeasible; he *_felt_* like they were ) Peter isn't even 20 and is doing math so much faster that is so much more advanced I'm genuinely not sure if there is even a phrase to describe it. If Peter actually could compute data as fast as shown in that scene Tony Stark was already last century's model before he was even born. The fact that he can climb on walls, has precognition, has superhuman strength, senses, etc. isn't even a rounding error in comparison to just how ludicrously fast and inteligent he would have to be for that scaling to be consistent.
The inconsistencies with Strange are actually something I have a degree of sympathy towards the filmmakers on. Multiverse of Madness was supposed to come out before this movie, and established America Chavez as a character. She was supposed to be the one who cast the spell, which would've made her not divulging all of the details to Peter and subsequently messing it up make much more sense. After MoM was delayed to come out after No Way Home, the writers had to hastily write America out of the film, which explains why Strange acts so out of character. He was never meant to cast the spell in the first place.
the issue is that it is still problematic from the persetive of why not her using that magic on wanda and everyone else include any thing that happens in the future.
@@gon720 well at the end of MoM She's learning Magic so she didn't actually know any until the end of the movie she just had her personal powers which is only portal opening and super punch at this point
Along the same lines, she was originally going to actually open her star shaped rifts to the present-day Raimi and Webb verses to bring in Tobey and Andrew because they knew how to beat the villains, rather than the other two Spideys having just... been there the whole time without anyone noticing.
I feel these inconsistencies would be fine if they showed a court scene with Matt Murdock explaining all this and proving Spider-Man is innocent but is still outed as Peter parker
It does make sense for him to use it because it's their, but it almost always becomes a repeat, "Too over reliant on tech." Lesson. I think Pete should have already learned that with stark, but it recurs more then it should.
@Greg Elchert I disagree. The only necessity for it was him being in open space for a couple minutes in total. Just making him get inside the ship faster and killing Voldemort in a different way would've completely removed the necessity of the Iron Spider suit. He didn't even use any crazy web shooter tech or anything like was shown in FFH, which had a much less advanced suit.
A simple throwaway scene with Fury telling Peter that SHIELD will scrub the digital video/photos from everyone's devices, computers, and the internet using a virus would solve all this. Peter could then complain that it doesn't help people forget what they already know to which Fury replies "That's the best I can do. It's technology, not magic." This then puts the idea of asking Strange for help into Peter's head.
To be fair, Harry DID try to kill Peter in Spider-Man 3 TWICE. However it’s still a huge omission on Tobey-Peter’s part not to mention that he died saving his life. I guess Harry would have had to die TWICE to save Peter to be fully redeemed in his eyes.
Well obviously he didn't want that thought to cross the fat kids head cuz imagine being a teen and hearing that comic book or not it'll get ur brain thinking...guess urs wasn't thinking
@@robobrain10000 theres levels to it im sure. Arent there movies you love that you can admit arent the best? And likewise, movies that are very solid but you just dont enjoy? TL;DR, liking something and it being good are two separate things I think (Not attacking but just vomiting oit my thoughts while i have a chance to type em)
I'd love it if you tore into Multiverse of Madness. I was so disgusted by how completely ruined Strange, Wanda, and to some extent Wong had been that I wasn't really paying attention to how broken the plot was, so a breakdown would be helpful.
If you were that disgusted by it why even bother watching more content about it? Hate watching is very unhealthy. MoM was a victim of the virus causing cancelled shoots and a million rewrites to compensate for what they could shoot.
But he clearly omitted the one other scene that does have super speed implications, he did however show the lead up to that scene just not the part that has the super speed implications
Spider-Man: Fighting with the avenger’s to stop Thanos & save the world twice. J Jameson: “He’s poisoned our water supply, Burned our crops, And delivered a plague onto our houses!” Earth: “He did?” J Jameson: “No, but are we just gonna sit around & wait until he does?”
@Jordan Sharpe I know that, my main criticism was how easily people in NYC were convinced spidey was evil. That was the joke. I just included Jameson because it would fit his character.
In the finale, the spell seems to only affect this Peter Parker, just because he says "have everyone forget, me." This explains why it doesn't have to affect the other ones. But it doesn't explain why Strange can't just point to MJ and Ned and let them keep remembering.
@@matthew_373 Or maybe just making everyone realize that Mysterio and his crew are the true bad guys. Why did the film keep forgetting that Mysterio’s crew are still out there?
I love how the whole problem started because Peter wanted too many changes to the spell. He could've prevented everything if he had just mentioned everyone in a single change because Strange was legitimately willing to slightly alter the spell so that Peter's friends would remember.
Ok? The parallel universe characters don’t know THIS Peter though? That makes the situation worse. Why are they even here? And why does only this Peter solve the problem? Does that mean this may still happen to other universes? That’s far worse
I know the writers don't want him using the Iron Spider all the time and I'm okay with that (even tho it's my favorite suit) but if we are being realistic he should be using that suit all the time seeing as it's his strongest, most advanced and most useful suit.
An easy solution would've been an extremely slow recharge rate, an issue coupled with it being connected to a normal socket instead of one of Tony's arc reactors. Also, it can't be repaired without Tony's workshops. So he has to use it sparingly.
I always thought he didn't have the suit because Dr. Strange took half of it, but I didn't realize that other than the chest piece in Doc Ock's arms there's also the controller in the apartment. Also the integrated suit didn't do anything except stop a single bullet after the apartment fight.
My biggest annoyance with the movie was Sandman He should NOT have been opposing them If they needed an extra villain, they could have just had Goblin punch Doc Oc in the neck and break the fix again Rather than Sandman, the guy who's entire motivation is his daughter, and who very much doesn't want his power
I think Sandman was getting really anxious and impatient about everything. He was, by all accounts, in an entirely different universe with people he does NOT know, not being able to trust anyone, and he’s already picked up that most of them want to stay and cause havoc… And might kill him too. He was opposing Spider-Man, but he wasn’t exactly friends with the other villains either. He was just going along with the villains to get to the button faster and just go home as quick as he could, as if he stayed any longer, he feared his life would be in danger. He already mentioned out loud that he did not trust Peter at all. His main concern was getting home as fast as possible, to his daughter. At least, that’s what I believe. And there is still always a different way to write him more properly.
@@Сайтамен That’s a very good point, though he probably doesn’t know if that really is his Spider-Man, or how the multiverse works. Compared to all the other characters he’s in every right to be the most scared, as he has no scientific background at all, just a criminal, who’s trapped in an another universe, one that wants to be with his daughter. His end goal will always be his daughter, and while both him and Spider-Man ended on good terms, it makes sense he would still fight tooth and nail to be with his daughter, even if it meant suffocating Tobey. The borrowed CGI from the old movies supports this theory a little more, as Sandman looks like he’s basically shitting himself, learning that his chance to quickly return home might be over because his powers are now gone. He’s clearly anxious and terrified of the whole thing underneath all that tough exterior and sand. Even when he returns home he has no clue what is happening.
My 2 biggest problems with NWH are Sandman and Lizard: 1. Sandman wasn't just underused bus misused. They turned him from a reluctant criminal with his heart in the right place to a selfish guy who only cares about him and his. In this movie, he doesn't even feel bad about attacking the good guys (which shits on the ending of Spider-Man 3) or condemning the other villains to die, which doesn't make sense since that's what he attacked Peter over. I know they had to get him on the bad side, and I admit that that's a challenge, but what I would've done is made him just seem like it was painful, like he really didn't want to do it, but he just can't stand never to see his daughter again and couldn't be sure a villain wouldn't destroy the box instead of being like "I just wanna go home! I don't give a shit about anyone!" Something to remember is that Sandman is supposed to be a sympathetic character, and when you take that away, he becomes far less likeable and interesting. Imagine Spider-Man 3 but without the parts where he says he doesn't want to hurt Spider-Man and him saying he didn't want the final battle and his confession scene. His turn to the dark side doesn't even make sense. So he attacks Spider-Man because he thinks he killed Electro (which shows he has empathy for and will fight for even villains being abused), but then he gets teleported, so you think he would see Electro and be like "Oh, Peter didn't kill him." It would also be safe to assume every Spider-Man is good. And then he sees Peter fight Dr. Strange to stop them from dying. Then he sees Peter making cures to help them. Then he sees him succeed with Octavius. All avoiding using the box. But he still doesn't trust him and belittles his efforts. I'm also not entirely sure why he just left when shit went bad, instead of, you know, helping. He couldn't have stopped Electro, but he would've stopped Goblin, saving Aunt May. Goblin, Doc Ock, and Electro all get story arcs not just for this movie but that continue the stories in their original movies. Which Sandman's introduction to this movie perfectly does. While I do think him attacking Peter for killing Electro is in character and noble, this is where the movie takes a wrong turn for me. It was awesome seeing him protect and team up with Peter, and then that gets cut short and goes in a completely different, underused direction. It's like his story stops after he gets shot; he says little and doesn't really do anything and then bails and then shows up at the end to fight alongside all the other villains where he only says "I don't care!" He gets a fraction of a story frontloaded and then a bunch of dead space. 2. I'm not even sure what the Lizard's motivation is. Does he want to get the box to go home not cured and try again, or does he want to destroy it and live in the new universe? Lizard doesn't even know if he dies. He just knows that he fails. I can't even say that they wrote him wrongly because he's barely even in the movie. We don't see him get captured, which Peter isn't part of or there for and barely gets interactioned with. He has no connection to Peter. They should've had a story arc continuing his belief in helping people and science. That would've been interesting. Lizard is by far the least cared about. But I feel like both of these aren't the result of apathy or laziness because the writers kind of had no choice. Because of reasons unknown to the public, those actors didn't show, so they couldn't do anything with their characters resolution for when they turned back human. And coronavirus caused VFX shortages, so they were also limited in what they could do with their CG forms. This is why Venom was actually going to show up to fight in the final battle but was cut and why Lizard didn't go in the apartment. So both human and super forms were handicapped. The movie couldn't do anything more.
Yeah Sandman was wasted, I feel like they could have had Osborn make a threat like “If you don’t join us, Uncle Norman will give little Penny a visit!” Or something but I don’t see why Sandman would want to Join them also he didn’t die to my recollection with Lizard I suppose you could maybe make the argument that Peter curing Connors kills the Lizard side of Connors but unlike other media where the Lizard is clearly another personality, here he is just Curt Connors as a giant lizard!
One thing that I will say about the Mysterio scene at the beginning is the fact that even though it is largely believed to be fake by the authorities, the general populous is usually pretty clueless when it comes to issues like this in real life. Perfect evidence doesn't mean squat to people who want to be right. This story can still continue after what Mysterio did because no matter what the verdict is on Spider-man, he will still be considered controversial.
And I got mad because I thought the way spectacular Spiderman predicted this exact thing was bad, but Man this is much worse! Not to mention the fact that a memory spell for some reason needs to tap into the multiverse!
@@n1ghtglare 1:he's visually sketchy. 2:who do they instantly believe it or wonder how he knows it? 3:venom is on a scale of one to ten is one place away from number 11-"BLACK DOOM"! 4:it's he's final appearence and a really underwhelming one.
Imagine how many problems with Phase 4 would be solved if Writers actually watched the previous films according to their respective characters so there won't be so much continuity errors. Not nearly as time consuming as reading every comicbook.
First. If the multi-verse is infinite that means that somewhere out there someone else messed up the spell and everyone from every universe is coming meaning that everyone should constantly be getting pulled into new universes. A spell that affects other universes in the multi-verse can't exist otherwise every universe in the multi-verse would be affected because the multi-verse is infinite and that means someone out there is using that spell.
I’ve been in the middle of making my Bioshock Infinite video and this is a very similar problem I came upon as well. Once you start thinking about it for even a second, the whole thing completely falls apart. I had a headache for a week just thinking of all the ways interacting with the multiverse completely fucks up everything.
Not necessarily, sure there are infinite possibilities but there are not *all* possibilities. Wanda is lucky that there are universes where her kids are 'alive' in MoM, Peter is lucky that there are not infinite villains coming to get him in this movie, but it's still possible for a configuration of universes to exist that makes this make sense. Also a funny thing, if there are *all* possibilities of universes in the multiverse, then the universes cannot be numbered because each universe has uncountable configurations.
@@MagicGonads I'm not grasping what you are defining and meaning of this. The first comment is right. If there's infinite multiverses... then some or alot of multiverses are going through the same phases or situations. Bc we can't count infinite, then all ideas count such as his and or yours. Infinite is a contradiction in terms tho. It's like a square circle. It means to continue but have no start. Now for something to exist infinitely wouldn't exactly be the same thing. Bc it wouldn't be multiple of that thing but it would always be there and forever more. But multiverses is more than one thing, a continuation of things, in other words. So multiverse wouldn't exist if it continues but nvr start. For you to be right, which I do agree with if I read correctly. Is if multiverses were potential infinite meaning having a start but does not end. Which in that case, the fabric of reality would be completely different on the view of possibility. Possibility wouldn't necessarily be about one situation and multiple outcomes... it'll more likely be multiple outcomes in generalization. To not even be counted
I so appreciate this video; there were so many inconsistencies and I wasn’t even aware of many of the ones you identified because I hadn’t rewatched the original Maguire trilogy yet. What was blatantly obvious to me and something you didn’t mention was Strange’s feelings towards Peter. He swung on a pendulum from showing ambivalence to compassion so inconsistently during the movie, it was jarring. On one hand he showed zero interest in keeping Tony’s unofficially adopted son safe and happy, and then at the end acts like he’s family, which zero visible growth between those positions during the film. I felt like I was watching a Strange stand-in at times, he was so OOC. So happy you brought up the spell work- that was so hard to watch, launching into such a dangerous and permanent spell with zero directions or introduction to Peter was nonsensical.
To add to the part about Strange not discussing the cons of the spell to Peter, Strange is a Surgeon, a Doctor, he should know all about sitting down woth a patient and explaining all of the details of a procedure before throwing them into it. There are things that make people not want a surgery done so he should've figured that thered be things in the details of the spell that would make Peter apprehensive about going through with it
@@kseriousr but he’s also a perfectionist, with nearly no failures in all of his surgeries. So why on Earth would he allow someone to disturb him while working?
@@abpdev True. And the final nail for me was, why not just erase the Mysterio's accusation instead of just erasing Peter's identity, or maybe erase people's memory of Mysterio ever existing. His arrogance stems from confidence and competence. For a guy who looks through fourteen million iterations to find the best outcome, he sure couldn't think of much better alternatives.
I want to agree with you on the idea that nobody should believe Mysterio, but man I've seen the lies people will swallow whole in real life so that part feels like a documentary.
It should’ve been more divided between people that believe in Spidey and others that believe Mysterio due to conflicting pieces of evidence and…media narratives. The last part could’ve been expanded on for an entire movie. In fact, the first part of NoWayback Machine drags this movie down because the writers wanted to BS some potentially great and relevant plot points. This trilogy at worse disappoints me because it has good ideas but bad execution on a higher level than other superhero movies. This movie should be two movies instead imo since it feels like two different movies pre and post Stephen Strange meeting.
It's just that - while people are stupid, they're stupid in a different way than the movie would want you to believe. They are familiar with Spiderman, so they would irrationally disbelieve evidence _against_ him, not for him. Mysterio is relatively new and all they need to do is show how the drones created the fake images and how the video is obviously edited (because they have access to the whole thing) to show him as a liar. People defend the familiar irrationally, and when they question it irrationally, they will seek out any gaps of ambiguity - but there aren't any in this case. There's too much evidence and absolutely no emotional investment for anyone (except maybe J Jameson) to hate Spider-Man, so it just wouldn't play out like this.
Every second that Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield and Tom Holland were on screen was an absolute treat. I felt like I was 10 years old watching my first Spider-Man movie again
So after double-checking a few details, No Way Home managed to get something right about the Mirror Dimension. A sorcerer enters it (or sends an enemy through it) via the fracturing mirror wall, but a sorcerer MUST have a sling ring in order to cast a portal and escape it. However, this brings to light several more problems... 1. Doctor Strange shouldn't be able to control the Mirror Dimension. The Ancient One and Kaecilius were only able to do so since they were drawing power from Dormammu and the Dark Dimension. For everyone else, the Mirror Dimension is used as a safe space to practice spells or to trap enemies within it. 2. If the counter-argument to that is Doctor Strange can do it because he's the Sorcerer Supreme, well no... According to No Way Home, Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme because Strange was dusted for five years, a technicality that they made up. 3. "Well, he can control it a little bit, or maybe he wasn't skilled enough yet to control it that much." Again, no. Mordo was there with Strange running around the Mirror Dimension at the end of Doctor Strange (2018). He seemed quite certain that they were going to die in there since they couldn't affect the Mirror Dimension. And if he could do anything at the time, he simply didn't. 4. Wait, hold on... How was Spider-Man capable of pulling two portals together within the Mirror Dimension? Not only is Spider-man not drawing power from Dormammu, but he's not even a sorcerer! And don't even get me started on Ned... He never should've been able to access the Mirror Dimension at all since he wouldn't have known what it was and because he opened it accidentally via the sling ring and not the mirror wall. Thanos (via the Infinity Gauntlet) and Wanda Maximoff can escape or negate the Mirror Dimension despite being non-sorcerers, but it's rather obvious as to why they can. 5. The Mirror Dimension isn't a seperate physical location, it's an ever-present fragment of the existing universe. If you presume that Ned can somehow unintentionally open the Mirror Dimension with a sling ring, the Mirror Dimension would've only opened up at the Statue of Liberty. Doctor Strange was at the portal a mere two seconds after it opened, so he would've needed to know where it was going to open in the randomness of the Mirror Dimension and flown there within that short amount of time. He was dangling over the Grand Canyon when Spider-Man left him there... 2,348 Miles away... 6. Sure would've been nice to have a safe space to practice that memory spell... You know? Somewhere where casting it accidentally wouldn't have affected the real world...
About green's goblin change in personality, in the first movie he didn't remember killing his assistant which was an isolated case maybe he developed a resistance to it or just subconsciusly blocked it out, we can also assume that gobly was in charge the whole No Way Home movie (I know pretty convenient) and was just pretending to be poor fragile Osborn (you can see the goblin persona leak out when he was supposedly pretending to be Norman when they tell him that he died, like "wth, I died by the hand of this pathetic runt?!" with an expression of disbelief and anger + goblin voice to booth). Hope I'm not reaching too much.
You should totally consider being a Profesional Script Supervisor. Picking not only simple continuity errors but also pointing out the effect of the errors and how to correct them is not an easy task to do. From a fellow TH-camr, good job mate.
I think all Marvel and DC needs is a team of comic book fans as advisors on their movies, but instead they hire people that don't even read comic books and expect everyone to just put up with their bs.
DC and MCU doesnt use that its literally easy to pick apart most of these movies by using plain and simple logic. Dr. Strange shouldve soloed this on his own and shouldnt of even needed Peters help. Strange messing up the spell because of Peter made no sense this is a Strange who fought Thanos and was casting spell literally in life-threatening moments but Peter talking knocks him off makes no sense.
@@dethpooldeadpool6203 nah he might retcon himself just for the fun of it. I think it would be and interesting video to make, but I suppose I’m not Madvocate so who knows what he wants to do
The part about Peter's friends being the only ones to survive drone attacks makes sense. kind of. If the drone decided to attack everyone they might have gone for his freinds before Peter realized and called then off. If they tried to come out about they could be labeled liars by mysterio supporters because they have ties to peter. Great video, keep uo the good work.
Spidy is one of the people who stopped Thanos....... That would give him so much popularity that people wouldn't just not believe the obvious lies of mistyrio but also not care if he killed him
"A herald of Galactus" In comics we also have what's called an outlier, in simple terms it's used when referring to a feat a character has accomplished that is way out of the normal level the characters are at. an example of which being Batman kicking and managing to stagger/damage eternity, a being which can stand up to a serious Superman, while he's in a regular Batsuit with no buffs. Spidy is regularly portrayed with struggling against foes who the firelord would win 10/10 times against without trying. Also also spidy has the black suit in that panel, something which buffs everyone of his physical stats and makes him far more aggressive, which is a big thing since in comic canon Peter is always holding back. this on top of the black suit means this feat isn't comparable to MCU Pete fighting strange. And if he really wants to use comics for this fight, Peter shouldn't be able to use his precog since it doesn't work on people he subconsciously views as friends/part of himself/not a threat to his being (its why Venom can sneak him sometimes since the spidy sense views the symbiote as part of Peter). Actual bait
I agree with everything, though I have to make one correction. Peter didn't have a Black Suit power boost in the comics. That was something for the Spider-Man TAS cartoon that was then utilized in future cartoons aswell as Spider-Man 3. The only thing the Black Suit did was: A. Repair itself B. Have peter instantly wear it C. Have peter take it off easier D. Give him nigh-infinitely generating webs. 'side from that, pretty good-
Regardless of its obvious writing issues NWH was probably one of the most exciting movies I've seen in the theater in a long time. Had a lot of fun watching it, and it made up for the pretty obvious plot issues for me
@@loganscott814 It is nice to see Actors getting more respect for iconic roles now, even if I hate the nostalgia cash grabs around them. Same goes for hayden christensen in his role of Anakin. Sure Obi Wan Kenobi was so SO bad, but people are finally realizing that acting is pretty hard and Hayden Christensen worked hard to play the role of Anakin even of the dialogue and script writing was just bad in places.
@@vullord666 those short scenes of Anakin and Obi-Wan training might just be some of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars now tbh, just sucks the show itself wasn’t very good ):
About the Astral Projection, in Doctor Strange, they mention that "Your [Strange's] body hasn't even hit the floor yet", implying that there is a bit of superspeed implicated in that one scene. Other than that, this is a pretty valid video
@@yasso222 yeah its listed under 'my response to madvocate' And in that video he debunks his statements in this one and he makes it clear that he was dragged into this argument without prior knowledge
As much as I loved the movie, it does have its flaws. Sandman didn't need to be cured because he was no longer a threat and he didn't die, and Lizard was already cured at the end of TASM (Electro should have told him he didn't die). The only ones who needed to be cured were Norman, Otto and Max. Also, why did they never include Topher Grace'd Venom and TASM 2 Green Goblin? They also knew about Spiderman's secret identity.
To be fair, mysterio’s video doesn’t hold up in court, it’s push through with hype and then gets dismissed. The people who believe Spider-Man did it are stuck on a hype train thinking he’s bad because they believed the first source they trust.
@@hinamatsuro1908 just this particular one because it prayed on nostalgia without giving an enjoyanle movie as compensation. Every Time I see mcu Spiderman I feel the Percy Jackson fandom's level of pain át the butchering that went town.
You have a great point about the sling ring. If you can just imagine someone like that and easily use it, then coupled with Strange's abilities to pour a glass remotely, teleport a gauntlet, and teleport people instantly, he literally has the powers of the space stone/ tesseract.
the part where ned talked about not turning into a villain and trying to kill peter could've been both a heartwarming reminder of tobeys friendship with harry, and then also a joke after. all they had to do was say something like "I had a best friend, we fell out of touch for a few years, he eventually became a villain and tried to kill me, but when i was about to die, he chose to jump in front of me to protect me." with ned still saying the "Peter I promise to not turn into a supervillain and try to kill you." but the writers decided to do le funny instead of caring.
@@FazeRustyNuts These are 90% nitpicks. I t's a movie set in a universe where a purple alien snapped his fingers while possessing some shiny rocks and it made half the universe vanish. The movie has a talking 8 foot tall lizard, a wizard who's travelled through time, a guy who is pure electricity, a guy who is made of sand, a dude with metal hentai tentacles that he controls with his mind and a teenage kid with parental issues who can run up a sky-scraper and hold a yacht splitting in half together with his bare-hands. Who cares if there's some inconsistencies with concepts that don't exist in real life. There needs to be a movie at the end of the day and IT IS A VALID EXCUSE. You can't expect a movie to be entirely consistent with a concept that we can't even grasp. Half the shit Madvocate was criticizing had valid rebutals that would explain some of the "inconsistencies". For example: It's 100% implied that most physical evidence that peter existed is completely removed, not just people's memories. He's in the process of a GED at the end of the movie so the fact that he graduated high-school is I guess retconned or whatever the word for it is. All or nearly all evidence that he existed is now gone.
What y’all call nitpicking, I call criticism and it’s why films like this, MoM and D&W don’t work Multiverse ruins storytelling, not only that, these writers are just lazy and not even trying to make sense
@@ninjanibba4259 bro you’re watching a movie about shit that doesn’t exist if it isn’t entirely consistent who gives a fuck, the story is the important part
@@d3va383 I give a F, cuz I want good movies with good storytelling Since when cuz something isn’t real, mean that standards should be lowered for content? That’s not how any of it works, we wouldn’t have cinema if people thought like you
The best part about having Peter leave his iron spider suit behind for the final fight is they could've just had it be destroyed by the villains during said fight. It stays consistent and further builds the villains up as legitimate threats, destroying the suit that essentially made Peter invincible
I think the writers went all in and did a bunch of things that were inexplainable because they knew it would get overlooked because of the nostalgia. -Half of the villains shouldn’t even be in the movie -Strange offering Peter an alternative to the spell only after casting it is dumb -Flint finding out how Norman died because it was on the news makes no sense The list goes on. I will say the movie was pretty fun though.
@@tobsonasanya4765 Venom told Eddie that 80 billion years of hive knowledge across universes would blow his tiny brain. You could argue that as an explanation but if the Sony Venom really did know Spider-Man why didn’t Strange detect him as one of the villains that got teleported in.
I'm glad to hear your criticism about Mysterio's narrative, as it matches mine almost one-to-one. The entire tension of the second movie could have been resolved in one press event. Dump bystander phone footage, give context to "execute them all" referring to some protocols rather than bystanders to show it's a lame out-of-context cut, play the actual recording, demonstrate the drones' tech. Within 5 to 10 minutes Mysterio's integrity is so demolished that nobody should believe a word he said. With subtle (manipulative) wording, Spider-Man could present Peter Parker as an unfamiliar stranger (refer to him in the third person, calling him "Mr. Parker" or something), distancing the two identities, while also reminding the people it's still an underaged child that shouldn't be harassed because of an unreliable narrator.
57:00 thank you for including that segment it was funny and it brings up one of the biggest issues I had with the movie, nothing major that affects the movie but Harry and Peter reconciling working together and being friends again was my favorite part in spiderman 3 and having that "he died trying to kill me" bit bothered me
I personally feel having all those magicians kicking around is a huge issue for the MCU in terms of writing. It's like saying "We have an army but we can never use them because.........they're busy practicing making circles."
One of those films that has a few neat high points, but it's dragged so far down by the logistics of how everything works, and by its inability to keep many characters consistent. There's like a disease spreading through the MCU to assassinate Strange at every possible opportunity. It's a shame, the first film to feature the three Spider-Men deserved better. Fantastic video.
I really love how Doctor Strange gets completely assassinated in this film and Multiverse of Madness. Benedict Cumberbatch must be so happy about his character
@@SuperDababy2 really though? In Ragnarok he became a comedian he never really was that way that was a completely different character suddenly he didn't even need his hammer anymore.
@@thephoenix4093 Ragnarok explains over the course of the whole movie how and why he doesn't need his hammer anymore and he wasn't even comedic, he was very serious in comedic situations which was the funny part. I think the movie was trying too much to be funny but I don't think Thor himself was
glorious video. i love how you manage to thoroughly explain the plot holes and logical inconsistencies that burden the plot while still acknowledging the thematic goodness at the core of the story that makes it a solid spider-man experience. after so much cinema sins and people arbitrarily yelling at their screens both on youtube and twitter it's great to see some good-faith critique
Given the world they live in, everything that would be considered "conspiracy theories" would probably be taken seriously given how crazy life is for them.
Cuz t.h.c. is good actor/Pick for sandman but the credit goes to raimi because Spiderman vase the final ingrediant the comicbook superhero movies needed to explode in popularity and thus turn cinemas into burger stands.
Madvocate, you’ve done it again. Your rational discussion and logical criticism has made me realize some reasonable flaws in a movie I like. Thanks man, this is a great video
"Dr Strange makes mistakes about magic since the very first movie, thats who he is" the first Doctor Strange came in 2016, so Strange hasnt learned ANYTHING in these 7 years? why is he allowed to have access to such powerful magic?
FR. That argument only works if you pretend Strange’s recklessness and impulsiveness weren’t flaws he wasn’t supposed to grow past in that first movie. Sure, they were weren’t completely gone but I thought he’d grown past being THIS reckless and impulsive. This is the same guy who took the time to check if a spell needed to be modified for Asgardians but he DOESN'T take the time to plan out the spell with Peter before hand? It's not like they're on a time limit.
Madvocate, I’m glad you made this video because I had a lot of the same complaints, but missed all the critiques regarding the other movies due to not having seen them in a long time.
When he played the toby music. My entire body got goosebumps and didn't even think about it. The idea that you can't criticize something you enjoyed is so stupid.
What I always considered odd is how quickly people jumped on the “Mysterio was a real hero, Spiderman bad” bandwagon. Spiderman was a well-known superhero, particularly known for saving lives and playing a part in defeating Thanos. You’d think that would get him a huge deal of public trust. Like, Stark’s business used to be considered questionable, but people loved him anyways --- and Spiderman gets shat on for one half-assed accusation? Meanwhile, Mysterio is supposed to be “literally who?”. The dude appears several times to fight elementals -- and suddenly he is everyone’s favorite and his word weighs more than Spiderman’s? Also, Mysterio spun an entire backstory about being a traveler from another world -- which is easily shattered by a simple DNA test and forensic dentistry procedure identifying him as Quentin Beck, former Stark Industries employer. IIRC, this body was intact -- and given that people thought that Mysterio “mysteriously disappeared” after the battle in London, I thought that the S.H.I.E.L.D picked his body up to learn who the guy actually was -- especially given that he obviously had associates who can still be dangerous. I doubt that Mysterio destroyed all the evidence of his existence as Beck -- to the point that no trace remained. So, revealing that he never was a lone warrior from another dimension in the first days after London attack and bringing up the fact that he was actually an angry Stark Industries employee with expertise in holograms would have rendered his post-mortem reveal useless.
I feel it was actually a very loud minority, boosted even further by JJJ's podcasts and news. Haters seem numerous when you see them everyday. Tbf it was left vague so anyone can come up with different ideas to this
As much as I love this film I can’t deny that they butchered Tobey’s story with his villains. He is my favorite of the three and it’s a shame that Tobey was done very wrong in this movie which is suppose to be a kind of endgame for the Spider-Man franchise
@@ollytherevenant1653 how him and Norman never interacted once. Although he did save Norman he never spoke to him once. Sandman had no reason to go against the 3 spidermen and almost KILL Tobey in the process. The only one they did right with was otto but I wish they did more with his relationship with norman, and sandman
I’d have to disagree on the Otto front. In SM2 the arms spoke to him at his lowest, his wife was dead and his dream crushed. They spoke to a man with nothing left to lose and advised him to pursue his original goal, which Otto decided to do no matter the cost, thus the darker aspects of his personality came out in full because why not. He regains control of the arms and destroys his machine by his choosing after seeing the error of his ways. In NWH they just give him a new chip and he shuts off like a robot and regains consciousness blissfull and happy as if the arms were in complete control of him the whole time, negating the nuance of his character in the original film and completely glossing over that his reactor still failed and his wife died as a result of his own creation.
@@danielwood6833 Thank you! Something didn't quite sit well with me in regards to how Doc Ock's character was handled in NWH, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. After reading your comment, I realized that that's what it was. Just like you said, it took away the nuance of the character and totally dismissed the trauma he went through that allowed the tentacles to take advantage of him. Well said. I do love the movie, but it did some things wrong.
The fact that Doc Ock knows Norman is a plot hole, but I feel like it’s only a result of the fact they had to cut down this film a ton for the run time. Let me explain this theory, the scene where Green Goblin first appears is already very short and weirdly put together, and as we know from previs, there was an extended fight on the bridge scene, and presumably that’s where Green Goblin’s mask originally would’ve been destroyed and Norman’s face would’ve been revealed on the bridge, with Otto discovering then and there that the Goblin is actually Norman. This was presumably cut due to not having the resources the complete the full bridge scene, instead they had to film a scene later with Norman destroying the mask on his own, which is also why that scene seems very last-minute visual effects wise.
Danny Elfman is my favorite composer. He has a way to convey emotions through his scores like no other. While I do believe John Williams is probably the best composer of our time, his scores are more catchy and earworms that you memorize for the simplistic medleys. Danny Elfman has a way to convey emotion and wonder. A few scores that really sell this are Edward Scissorhands, the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy, the Nightmare Before Christmas, and even some tracks from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Darkman.
You know, I have a lot of problems with the Iron Spider suit and "Iron Boy Jr" stuff. But I totally agree with your assessment. I was wondering at the start of the final fight where his Iron armor had gone, and then started wondering that again when you was trying to kill Goblin. I can understanding them to just want to do things classic Spider-Man style without extra frills, but that stuff's already such a big part of his MCU character and so strong that it honestly makes no sense why he wouldn't use it.
I never minded it, but I don't like it if that makes sense. I think that's the consensus too, it's powerful and it makes sense that Hed use it, but him using it takes something away from the Spider-Man we know and love. It makes him less of a lone wolf underdog hero who makes and does most things on his own if that makes sense
Basically: it's a symbol of the narrative issues a lot of fans have had with these movies. Peters reliance on Tony stark is logical but not what people want from this established character
One way the movie could've ended is that Peter tells Strange to make everyone forget that Spider-Man exist. If everyone forgets who Spider-Man is than no one would remember who under the mask and what his identity is. The ending would make more since cause now Ned and MJ would still be one of Peter's friends and Spider-Man can always go to Strange and asked him to erase all footage of Mysterio revealing Spider-Man's identity. Yeah Peter would no longer be part of (whatever left of the avengers), but at least Peter would have a fresh start, Aunt May would still have a nephew, Peter might get into MIT, and then we can still have that scene where Peter moves on and learns how valuable keeping his identity is. Edit: To be specific, before Peter became Spider-Man.
1:05:29 I love how his description of becoming ragefull and no longer pulling his punches implies that rhino gets brutally beaten to death in this scene right in front of the kid in the Spider-Man costume.
I always loved the in-depth way you ripped apart the flash and inspected it in such detail. It is so great seeing that same deep review going into other movies. I could watch you tearing apart movies all day.
21:09 this is really the answer to the entire movie and it's super weird that neither Peter nor Dr. Strange thought of that. The "time spell" should JUST be *_"Make everyone forget what Mysterio said"._* And if he wanted to be anal about things he could have added *_" as well as anyone who found out I was Spider-Man as a result of Mysterio's actions besides MJ."_* With the logic of how this movie says the spell works, any evidence of Mysterio revealing Peter's identity should just be erased from existence, but nothing prior to that... I would have thought of that as a FIRST option. Not _"Have everyone forget I'm Spider-Man"._ I mean, I get that Peter is supposed to be 16-17... But he's also supposed to be a bit of a genius... Not just academically, but in terms of problem-solving and reasoning capabilities. He's supposed to be operating at a higher level than some typical 16-year-old burn-out. Just saying.
In spite of the many flaws of No Way Home, it's my favorite MCU Spiderman film after Homecoming, and my favorite MCU film in Phase 4. Although, my biggest issue with the film is that they didn't need to involve Dr. Strange in this film at all, and could have introduced a villain like Scorpion in this film; from what I remember about his backstory, he was created by Jameson, but we could go with something along those lines. I know that doesn't give us the other Spidermen, but that's a worthy sacrifice.
This movie is the perfect reflection of the m.c.u. a mess with plot holes so many and big it's like driving semy trucks through city sized swiss cheese, with the only thing holding it togather are duct tape and nostalgia/fanservice, with characters quipping at each other basically saying:"hey audience it's just a dumb superhero comicbook movie don't take it seriously and buy our product"!
My problem with your videos is that I can listen to you talk for hours without realising time has passed. I almost missed an exam because I was watching your video. Keep making addictive content
I made a critique of this movie and some guy defended it with “It’s an open magic system, anything goes” and “This 3rd person movie’s flaws and hypocrisy’s and stuff is solved because unreliable narrator.” Like I swear I only see these 2 general arguments used because fans can’t defend a bad movie logically…
If its an open magic system could strange not just make a spell that would make everybody forgot spiderman is Peter without it affecting is friends while still bringing the villains back I mean anything goes right
Honestly, the fact that the magic is as open as it is creates a lot of problems, particularly with MoM. Any time a fight happens, the magic users just pull an assortment of random crap out of their ass that makes it impossible to know exactly what tools they're working with here, and creates situations where they don't use the more effective magic in certain scenes because the magic they do use is a prettier visual. It cripples the stakes.
@@crocdog5278 that's the problem with a powerful magic system in a universe where magic is not the main/most common power system. People like Strange and Wanda could crush their opponents like tin foil and manipulate so many parts of the universe with ease. Introducing these characters and adding spells creates a host of issues, especially when you don't establish that these spells are too powerful or new, case in point the forgetting spell. The MCU needed a hard magic system that can be broken in certain aspects or within certain conditions imo, such as Wanda have open magic system since she uses chaos magic.
Well for magic there is no one rule for magic since it's not real. We have rules cause things follow the laws of physics magic is made up so it doesn't follow those laws. So yes anything goes when it comes to magic unless the person who is writing the story says it doesn't and that's what we get for using a power source based on nothing held back by also nothing
32:20 I’m not sure if this counts as out of universe but in some versions peters spider sense doesn’t detect venom because his spider sense views the symbiote as a friends after the time Peter shared with it so if we follow that logic Peter stands even less of a chance because it’s safe too say peters spider sense would count strange as a friend but take this with a heavy grain of salt because it hasn’t been confirmed
@Rando Viewer that was no where near what I was talking about I was saying that Spider-Man’s spider sense doesn’t work on friends this has nothing too do with Sony verse venom Edit: Key words “in the comics” and I even said too take it with a grain of salt
The comic explanation with Spidermans' Spider Sense and the symbiote was that because part of himself was permanently bonded to it, his Spider Sense registered the symbiote as himself. The idea being his Spider Sense would never react to anything he does to himself intentionally that's dangerous or self harming.
I think that Peter is not actually dodging Dr. Strange with super speed, his reflexes are just being enhanced with the spider sense. That being said, I hated how the movie never mentioned he could do that again
Honestly came into this with low expectations, but I was really pleasantly surprised. Aside from the “Inconsistencies: The Raimi and Webb-Verse” segment, I have to agree with pretty much all of your criticisms here. I do still like the movie, but without a doubt there are serious inconsistencies with other MCU movies and butchered characters (mostly Strange). Nice job, you clearly know your stuff.
I really never stopped to think about Peter's new suit not having the recording feature. You're right, Peter either managed to remove that on accident when "upgrading", or he deliberately did so, despite the final mission *definitely* calling for its use. This might be the biggest blow I've seen dealt to MCU Peter's character/smarts. Other good points you raised were how Mysterio's narrative possibly convinces anyone, with Peter's friends being witnesses to the drone attacks, and the projection failing in front of civilians. I *guess* a defense might be that it was a last-ditch effort on Mysterio's part? He was just hoping maybe the public didn't understand what they were seeing, and that Peter's friends wouldn't be around to refute his video..? Kinda flimsy. And as for the shaky cam Mysterio has set up, there could've been one drone he set aside at the end of the bridge, to record him and also put a filter of some kind on it to make the footage seem like a hand-held, citizen's vid? To add legitimacy? That's all I got. The forget-Peter-is-Spider-Man-spells are a lot more ambiguous, between this video *and* others I've watched that try to guess at/professing how it works/what it does to evidence of Spider-Man's identity beyond memories, I just don't think there's anything solid to stand on. Nowhere is it mentioned by Strange that the video exposing Peter would be erased. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't; it's pretty sketchy. It doesn't 100% erase documents of Peter Parker, and it doesn't *not* erase them. We just aren't told. We don't know if everyone who's seen Spider-Man unmasked (like Captain Marvel for example) either A) just had that whole encounter wiped, or B) they do remember that they've seen him unmasked, just don't remember *who* it was. *edit* Ah, so the writers don't even know. "not allowed to divulge that" Yeah, okay man. I definitely never let FFH's finale sink in all the way. Really appreciate the questions you raise in your stuff. Keep on truckin' with these essays! 11:09 I know plenty of people agree on this but it's still so cathartic to hear. The montage of D+ shows' "finest moments" had me laugh-crying I appreciate the work you did on each section's intro, with the words in Strange's spell. Impressive. Also needed to get it off my chest because I encounter this everywhere: 16:50 past-tense of "cast" is still just "cast"
It didnt have a recording feature because it was still his ffh suit. A suit peter made on the fly and obviously didnt integrate into it just like how he forgot to add the extra web cartridges. Why would he be thinking “cant forget to add the camera” when his friends + hundreds of other people are in danger especially when again compared to the much more important web cartridges that he also forgets.
@@OrphanJupiter I don't think I follow, why doesn't the FFH suit just have the Karen/monitoring system too? Personally I would want the video feature more than extra webbing.
Biggest blow to MCU Peter's smarts was taking dangerous villains out of their cells so he could bring them to a *portable* lab. It was utterly moronic.
I will die on this hill that Thor ragnarock was has the best strange appearance. Anyways, having strange not take any precautions before jumping in the spell is a direct opposite from Thor 3 where he double checks and makes sure that the anatomy of the person he’s portaling won’t harm them.
While I also reconigzed the several flaws in the movie, most of them told in this video, particualary on the setup for us to get the good scenes, I can't really fathom people saying it was Nostalgia Bait as criticism, when this i one of the beter movies making use of the nostalgia. Why? Because it makes use of it to not only improve the main character but also helps the characters providing the nostalgia (most of them, at least). I will defend that, besides the moments with Dafoe, the best scenes in the movie are the various interactions among the 3 Spider-Men. They just don't put Tobey and Andrew and say "oh look! cameo", they are important parts to Tom's Peter development and support, and as a bonus, they get it too (come on, the scene of Andrew saving MJ must have hit the heart of several people in a not superficial way). And even if it is not perfect or averages do to the inconsitencies, it still above several other franchises when they make use of Nostalgia, but with way more superficial value or less meaning (Most of Disney's Star Wars anyone?). Awesome video, by the way.
I can not express my love for this channel enough. You have pointed out every inconsistency in my 2nd favorite film and I love it. And thank you for including ffh and iw and doctor strange and endgame. You should do the star wars movies lol. Also I love how you put the scenes from the movies over the narrative of nwh. That was awesome.
@@bruvie_editz I had an argument on Reddit with a TROS fanboy who said that Rey Palpatine wasn’t a retcon because “Kylo was lying to Rey.” The desperation in these people is hilarious 😂
I thought Doctor Strange's spell messed up because Loki made the multiverse split, disrupting how the spell functions... But then that wasn't the case, and what Loki did didn't mean anything for the movies
I love this video, because it shows how you can enjoy something on a first viewing and acknowledge the positive experiences you had WITHOUT turning your brain off and pretending that it was perfectly written. I get the sense that a lot of people get hung up on their first impressions; if they enjoyed something, then it must be good - If they didn't enjoy it, it must be bad. Some media I'd praise as brilliant actually left me with mixed or weak impressions on first viewing, only "clicking" after marinating in my head for some time. Some media which I immediately had tons of fun with, I later realised was total nonsense. People should really understand that they're allowed to enjoy things while also pointing out their massive flaws in writing and storytelling. It's not an either-or situation.
The argument that magic can do anything and has no rules because its magic is just an excuse for shitty writing. Any magic system needs to have internal consistency, irrelevant of how hard or soft the magic is. Howl cannot make a person, despite the fact that he put life in a flame, and Dumbeldore cannot teleport to anywhere he wants, despite the fact he can just teleport to some places. These are all internal consistencies, and even tho its magic, the characters and the magic needs to follow its own rules, even if nobody knows them. As Thor said, a technology is indistinguishable form magic when it gets advanced enough. To someone 200 years ago, Googling something would be literal magic, hand him a cellphone, and teach him to google things, and now he is a wizard, the cellphone can tell you anything about anything, but it cannot tell you the future, or what others thing. Magic is the same.
It's something that becomes an even bigger issue the bigger you do it as well. Like how Buffy had an instance of a wish demon character presumably creating an entire pocket universe in-and-of itself via a genie wish trick. Then they never much go out of their way to explain it, still leaving it as one of those incredibly difficult to juggle with writing decisions for what could've been explained far more properly.
I saw a meme somewhere that suggested the entire film would be negated if Peter just told Strange to have everyone forget about Mysterio rather than himself. Goes to show how broken of a foundation this is
Actually, no. That meme is absolutely ridiculous for one simple reason. Forgetting mysterio changes nothing, everyone would still know that Peter Parker is Spider Man, they just wouldn't know how.
@@lucinavonnolaran8728 And? The real only issue with Peter’s identity being known is the controversy with Mysterio and everyone thinking he’s a murderer or criminal. Otherwise it might put his family (one aunt) and two friends in danger but nothing else. Actually it’d probably be good for him. Heck, in marvel tons heroes have their identities known and it hasn’t gotten them slaughtered. At the very least everyone forgetting Mysterio or what he did/just the video is the obvious first step. Try that and if life is still hard with people knowing you’re Spiderman try again. Not like there’s a use limit on the spell. Either way don’t start with the one that will upend your life the most.
@@vullord666 The spell he starts with is just having people not remember who Spider-Man is which wouldn't upend his life that'd just go back to how it was before. Also the video would still be leaked they just wouldn't remember who it was that's talking on there, because the spell, while admittedly not explained amazingly, doesn't erase the person's existence just people's knowledge and memories of them.
@@vullord666 Let me repeat myself. Everyone would still know who Peter Parker is. They wouldn't know how. And following that train of logic a bit further, suppose if (and this is incredibly likely) everyone started talking about Spider-Man, and they all noticed that they all happen to know who he really is. They'd then start searching for video evidence that they know who he is, not to mention, the meme says that the spell should've been to only forget MYSTERIO. Not the VIDEO. You can't say "Then have everyone forget the video", because that falls into the same issue. People would still know who spider-man is, and they wouldn't know how. Additionally, it would result, most definitely, in what I said earlier. They'd search for video evidence confirming that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. It wouldn't get a target off Peter's back, it wouldn't remove the video or anything tying him to it from existence, everyone would still know, thereby making the meme of "Make the spell cause everyone to forget Mysterio" utterly pointless and just exist for the sake of trying to add more fuel to the fire.
@@lucinavonnolaran8728 If we go with the assumption that making everyone forget who Mysterio doesn't erase the evidence with it, then doesn't that make everyone forgetting that Spider-man is Peter Parker also pointless, since it runs into the same issue that your assumption about forgetting Mysterio does? Cause by the end of the movie it is shown/implied that everything was fixed by making everyone forget who Spiderman/Peter Parker, even though by your logic doing this wouldn't/shouldn't erase any of the evidence with it.
This was a great video and I love that even given the fact the movie has a lot of problems, you openly said that you did enjoy it and I have to say I feel the same way as I loved this movie in the moment and briefly thought it was the best MCU movie because it hit me emotionally and of course Toby and Andrew were in the film so that boosted my enjoyment, but it was after the oh my god look it's the spider-men I grow up with disappeared that I began to see plot holes and this video pointed even more out to me, still even knowing those plot holes I still love the movie and I will gladly watch it again because it was a extremely enjoyable ride, through I do wish MCU projects would be better as most of the Phase 4 stuff has been mostly enjoyable but just riddled with plot holes or retcons that make the universe of the MCU messy as hell to keep track of. Once again thanks for the great video and I look forward to what to put out next, btw it was your flash videos that put you on my feed and I've been watching since.
For the ___ people still invested, Shandy released a video today thoroughly responding to Birdman’s response:
th-cam.com/video/V9ncg9ADHWc/w-d-xo.html
Given how ill-inducingly awful Birdman’s counters were, along with completely misrepresenting my video and my character, I didn’t feel like making one myself was a good use of my time. But Shandy decided to do god’s work and give our winged friend a long overdue ego check. Give it a watch if you somehow think his video holds up.
Scottish Poggers
Seems like waiting three and a half months to finally watch this banger was a good idea after all 🤠
Based squirrel
Jesus Christ loves you
@@stygames5450 Jesus Christ loves you
the public ignoring actual evidence is the most realistic part of this movie.
People wouldn’t believe the stupid shit they believe now if they didn’t ignore all actual evidence proving them wrong, now would they?
America irl
Damn so true
Not true, public does ignore actual evidence but that happens when things fit their propaganda.
Between Mysterio and Spiderman, the public has no need to take sides especially when there is overwhelming evidence against against one of them
@@taherkagdi2781 I mean the same group that wanted superheroes to follow laws and procedures in civil war would benefit greatly by slandering one of those superheroes using tech to mass kill civilians- even enough ti get certain news outlets to gloss over some evidence
I love how the writers just kept saying “Believe me, we talked about it” when questioned about the movie and its implications and plot holes.
Its because they couldn't talk about how Doctor Strange: MoM was supposed to be released first and how America Chavez was the one supposed to be casting the spell (as we see her learning magic at the end of that movie), but she doesn't know the consequences of altering it, then screws the spell up, which mixes with here universal powers which causes the variants to show up. But the writers talked about it lol.
There's a whole other comment thread about this somewhere on this video.
@@CodiusRed I’m just gonna pretend MoM wasn’t delayed and the original plan happened so this movie can be better. Yep full denial baby
WAS GOING TO COMMENT THIS EXACT THING
@@CodiusRed and then the ending was her using Multiversal portal powers to bring in Tobey and Andrew. But MoM got release date swapped and the whole story for that movie was rewritten.
Great movie tho
What's really funny about the Tobey-Peter talking about Harry trying to kill him thing, is that Ned could have just asked Andrew - who could have been like "Well... I did... Until he took a goblin serum and tried to kill me." you could even have had Tobey go like "Huh... My friend Harry did that too, whaddya know."
I'm really confused with your text
@@gabrielbarros493 yeah rereading it now, me too haha. If I can remember correctly, I think I was referencing something in the video about the way Tobey talks about his Harry and how it was contrived and didn't really match how Tobey would have viewed their relationship.
I think I was providing an alternative where Ned asks Andrew about HIS best friend instead, and when he explains about the events of ASM2, Tobey could confirm that something similar happened to HIS best friend. That way Ned would still have his fears compounded, so we could still get the joke in the movie, but the characters wouldn't feel miswritten.
@@Doddser This makes way more sense
It's feels more natural to have Andrew Peter talk about how Harry tried to kill him after taking a serum and then Tobey Peter said Harry shared the same powers similar to the Goblin (I'm not sure if he knows Harry went into Norman chamber) and then you have Ned be worried that he'll end up to be a super villain for his Peter and promises he won't do that
Fixing the contrived scene, referencing the old films and fitting in with the past films a 3 in 1
Yeah true
@@SoulKrimsonThe entire point of that was just to set up the awkward I promise I wont try to kill you joke to Peter, there would have been no need for a whole conversation because we know the meaning.
I think adding the scene where Peter defeats Strange with "geometry" in the "You can't expect Peter to use his resources reasonably under stress" part would've added a little more kick to the point.
Idk man I wouldn't consider using geometry to beat the sorcerer supreme reasonable. I'd consider it crackhead insane.
to be fair that scene was also pretty bullshit. The obscene mental boost you'd need to pull that off would make Peter the smartest man on earth by a fucking landslide. It'd be one thing if it was "oh, shit, I know these geometric patterns, I'll let my intuition take the wheel since I already know a bit of what's going on here and I'm betting strange isn't anticipating it" but he was actively talking as if he was doing the calculations in his head. Even if we accept that that is *_possible_* as a result of his enhanced spider-senses (which would be an entirely new power we never otherwise see) it would still mean he has the mental capacity to do near-any arbitrary mathematical operations at *_least_* including complex real-time trig & calculus (since the numbers would be changing in real time) several dozen times parallelized (since each individual webbing would be it's own set of calculations) in a matter of seconds with a mere superficial understanding of the fields. (since he would only be a highschool graduate by the time of this scene implying, at best, he has just taken Calculus 1)
If the scene was written so that it was just him intuiting and approximating that would be one thing, but the scene is written as him actually performing these math operations in his head which is just obscenely OP.
@@robonator2945 to be fair, in universe it makes no sense, but out of universe peter implies that hes constantly doing physics and math calculations for proper webswinging. so i guess its believable like that? but yeah in the movie no.
@@robonator2945It’s not a new ability. It’s always been established that Peter uses his intelligence to calculate the trajectory of objects he tosses and him swinging around. Some of it is Spidey Sense, but mathematics have always played a part as well.
@@JosepiThe13th ah yes, calculating trajectories, that thing that literally every human ever does everytime they throw a ball, is the exact same as processing dozens to hundreds of simultanious multi-variable calculus equations over trigonometric functions in real time accounting for both radial and cartesian changes over time to tie precise self-closing nets within seconds while flying through the air.
This is like arguing that it's totally reasonable for timmy to make a quantum super computer because they make cheap DIY Calculator kits for children. Saying this is off by orders of magnitude would be an insult to the very concept of measurement. Tesla could just about compute moderately complicated integrals in his head because he had a very very *_very_* rare case of synesthesia that made his brain excellent at on-the-fly approximations and he is still remembered as one of the worlds greatest inventors. ( a condition which had serious downsides mind you because it meant he was relying on his gut rather than actual knowledge, this is why he got so fixated on things like wireless power despite them being infeasible; he *_felt_* like they were )
Peter isn't even 20 and is doing math so much faster that is so much more advanced I'm genuinely not sure if there is even a phrase to describe it. If Peter actually could compute data as fast as shown in that scene Tony Stark was already last century's model before he was even born. The fact that he can climb on walls, has precognition, has superhuman strength, senses, etc. isn't even a rounding error in comparison to just how ludicrously fast and inteligent he would have to be for that scaling to be consistent.
The inconsistencies with Strange are actually something I have a degree of sympathy towards the filmmakers on. Multiverse of Madness was supposed to come out before this movie, and established America Chavez as a character. She was supposed to be the one who cast the spell, which would've made her not divulging all of the details to Peter and subsequently messing it up make much more sense. After MoM was delayed to come out after No Way Home, the writers had to hastily write America out of the film, which explains why Strange acts so out of character. He was never meant to cast the spell in the first place.
the issue is that it is still problematic from the persetive of why not her using that magic on wanda and everyone else include any thing that happens in the future.
But the fact remains: he did.
"It wasn't supposed to be like that" is not a valid excuse. The movie still fucked him up.
@@gon720 well at the end of MoM She's learning Magic so she didn't actually know any until the end of the movie she just had her personal powers which is only portal opening and super punch at this point
@@RevRyukin7 while I agree I have to say that the commenter wasn't giving an excuse, just sympathizing with the makers of the movie
Along the same lines, she was originally going to actually open her star shaped rifts to the present-day Raimi and Webb verses to bring in Tobey and Andrew because they knew how to beat the villains, rather than the other two Spideys having just... been there the whole time without anyone noticing.
I feel these inconsistencies would be fine if they showed a court scene with Matt Murdock explaining all this and proving Spider-Man is innocent but is still outed as Peter parker
Maybe in the extended cut?
While I would like that scene I think it's unnecessary. Based on Matt's single scene it's clear he is confident there is no real case against peter
@@xrphoenix7194Yeah Pete wasn’t worried about the cops as much as the rest of the idiot public.
please don't ever stop having the nerd dude in your videos. i love him so much
We love to hate him
Same
Not really it's pretty cringe.
@@Marvelfanatic3658Ironic coming from a guy named spongebob squarepants
@@elviswilliams1131 And now it's hilarious. He thinks it's cringe because it's clearly his beliefs.
You’re like the first person I’ve EVER seen talking positive about the Iron Spider. Mad respect
It does make sense for him to use it because it's their, but it almost always becomes a repeat, "Too over reliant on tech." Lesson. I think Pete should have already learned that with stark, but it recurs more then it should.
@Greg Elchert but if he ever does need to help the Avengers again, he'll be in trouble due to not having the suit anymore lol
@@Marvelfanatic3658 yes, his new suit will get torn to shreds
@@Marvelfanatic3658 use different suits for different situations
@Greg Elchert I disagree. The only necessity for it was him being in open space for a couple minutes in total. Just making him get inside the ship faster and killing Voldemort in a different way would've completely removed the necessity of the Iron Spider suit. He didn't even use any crazy web shooter tech or anything like was shown in FFH, which had a much less advanced suit.
A simple throwaway scene with Fury telling Peter that SHIELD will scrub the digital video/photos from everyone's devices, computers, and the internet using a virus would solve all this. Peter could then complain that it doesn't help people forget what they already know to which Fury replies "That's the best I can do. It's technology, not magic." This then puts the idea of asking Strange for help into Peter's head.
To be fair, Harry DID try to kill Peter in Spider-Man 3 TWICE. However it’s still a huge omission on Tobey-Peter’s part not to mention that he died saving his life. I guess Harry would have had to die TWICE to save Peter to be fully redeemed in his eyes.
Well obviously he didn't want that thought to cross the fat kids head cuz imagine being a teen and hearing that comic book or not it'll get ur brain thinking...guess urs wasn't thinking
I love the movie while still understanding that it is extremely flawed.
At least you have a brain my friend, while the shills continue to chew it like bubble gum in spite of it's taste.
I love so many bad movies lol and some of my favorite movies are trash
@@orzen_the_orzo933 like what and why?
What do you like about it? I can't fathom how you can like something that is "extremely flawed".
@@robobrain10000 theres levels to it im sure. Arent there movies you love that you can admit arent the best? And likewise, movies that are very solid but you just dont enjoy? TL;DR, liking something and it being good are two separate things I think
(Not attacking but just vomiting oit my thoughts while i have a chance to type em)
I'd love it if you tore into Multiverse of Madness. I was so disgusted by how completely ruined Strange, Wanda, and to some extent Wong had been that I wasn't really paying attention to how broken the plot was, so a breakdown would be helpful.
Just watch Mauler's Video on it.
If you were that disgusted by it why even bother watching more content about it? Hate watching is very unhealthy. MoM was a victim of the virus causing cancelled shoots and a million rewrites to compensate for what they could shoot.
I love Strange, I love Wanda, I love the very concept of multiverse, how did I hate this movie so much.
@@Byronic19134People want nonstop validation for their opinions, that's why.
@@Byronic19134No lmao, hate watching can actually be pretty fun.
"Dr. Strange and Spider-Man have super speed."
Aw shit, here we go again.
So true😂😂😂
But he clearly omitted the one other scene that does have super speed implications, he did however show the lead up to that scene just not the part that has the super speed implications
"There's nowhere to run!!".
Bro they did this to explain the spider-sense
Don't stop to quip don't stop to quip don't stop to quip don't stop to quip.
Spider-Man: Fighting with the avenger’s to stop Thanos & save the world twice.
J Jameson: “He’s poisoned our water supply, Burned our crops, And delivered a plague onto our houses!”
Earth: “He did?”
J Jameson: “No, but are we just gonna sit around & wait until he does?”
Nice reference
But that's how he's supposed to be written though
@Jordan Sharpe I know that, my main criticism was how easily people in NYC were convinced spidey was evil. That was the joke. I just included Jameson because it would fit his character.
Now that I think about it, since Bubble Buddy was revealed to be sentient, he really did just let the surfer "experience high tide".
"Wow, newspaper!Alex Jones is right, I hate Spider-Man now!"
In the finale, the spell seems to only affect this Peter Parker, just because he says "have everyone forget, me." This explains why it doesn't have to affect the other ones. But it doesn't explain why Strange can't just point to MJ and Ned and let them keep remembering.
They also could have made everyone forget Tom’s Spider-Man instead so that Peter’s friends don’t forget him
@@matthew_373 Or maybe just making everyone realize that Mysterio and his crew are the true bad guys. Why did the film keep forgetting that Mysterio’s crew are still out there?
@@nont18411 Especially since the word of Dr Strange, a well known hero, would do wonders for convincing people
I love how the whole problem started because Peter wanted too many changes to the spell. He could've prevented everything if he had just mentioned everyone in a single change because Strange was legitimately willing to slightly alter the spell so that Peter's friends would remember.
Ok? The parallel universe characters don’t know THIS Peter though? That makes the situation worse. Why are they even here? And why does only this Peter solve the problem? Does that mean this may still happen to other universes? That’s far worse
I know the writers don't want him using the Iron Spider all the time and I'm okay with that (even tho it's my favorite suit) but if we are being realistic he should be using that suit all the time seeing as it's his strongest, most advanced and most useful suit.
An easy solution would've been an extremely slow recharge rate, an issue coupled with it being connected to a normal socket instead of one of Tony's arc reactors. Also, it can't be repaired without Tony's workshops. So he has to use it sparingly.
I always thought he didn't have the suit because Dr. Strange took half of it, but I didn't realize that other than the chest piece in Doc Ock's arms there's also the controller in the apartment. Also the integrated suit didn't do anything except stop a single bullet after the apartment fight.
It’s my least favorite suit tbh
@@enochlo9156 You think it needs charging? it's stark tech
@@AshenDemon
A lot of Stark's suits would run out of power
My biggest annoyance with the movie was Sandman
He should NOT have been opposing them
If they needed an extra villain, they could have just had Goblin punch Doc Oc in the neck and break the fix again
Rather than Sandman, the guy who's entire motivation is his daughter, and who very much doesn't want his power
I think Sandman was getting really anxious and impatient about everything. He was, by all accounts, in an entirely different universe with people he does NOT know, not being able to trust anyone, and he’s already picked up that most of them want to stay and cause havoc… And might kill him too. He was opposing Spider-Man, but he wasn’t exactly friends with the other villains either. He was just going along with the villains to get to the button faster and just go home as quick as he could, as if he stayed any longer, he feared his life would be in danger. He already mentioned out loud that he did not trust Peter at all. His main concern was getting home as fast as possible, to his daughter.
At least, that’s what I believe. And there is still always a different way to write him more properly.
I think if they played with the idea of Ned becoming the goblin, or heck have some form of Harry Osborn be in the film, would've been neat.
I'm pretty sure he was just siding with the villains to get to the button. At that point he's on whatever side gets him home faster.
@@dangerousdoings8066 That does not excuse him suffocating Tobey.
@@Сайтамен That’s a very good point, though he probably doesn’t know if that really is his Spider-Man, or how the multiverse works. Compared to all the other characters he’s in every right to be the most scared, as he has no scientific background at all, just a criminal, who’s trapped in an another universe, one that wants to be with his daughter. His end goal will always be his daughter, and while both him and Spider-Man ended on good terms, it makes sense he would still fight tooth and nail to be with his daughter, even if it meant suffocating Tobey. The borrowed CGI from the old movies supports this theory a little more, as Sandman looks like he’s basically shitting himself, learning that his chance to quickly return home might be over because his powers are now gone. He’s clearly anxious and terrified of the whole thing underneath all that tough exterior and sand. Even when he returns home he has no clue what is happening.
My 2 biggest problems with NWH are Sandman and Lizard:
1. Sandman wasn't just underused bus misused. They turned him from a reluctant criminal with his heart in the right place to a selfish guy who only cares about him and his. In this movie, he doesn't even feel bad about attacking the good guys (which shits on the ending of Spider-Man 3) or condemning the other villains to die, which doesn't make sense since that's what he attacked Peter over. I know they had to get him on the bad side, and I admit that that's a challenge, but what I would've done is made him just seem like it was painful, like he really didn't want to do it, but he just can't stand never to see his daughter again and couldn't be sure a villain wouldn't destroy the box instead of being like "I just wanna go home! I don't give a shit about anyone!" Something to remember is that Sandman is supposed to be a sympathetic character, and when you take that away, he becomes far less likeable and interesting. Imagine Spider-Man 3 but without the parts where he says he doesn't want to hurt Spider-Man and him saying he didn't want the final battle and his confession scene.
His turn to the dark side doesn't even make sense. So he attacks Spider-Man because he thinks he killed Electro (which shows he has empathy for and will fight for even villains being abused), but then he gets teleported, so you think he would see Electro and be like "Oh, Peter didn't kill him." It would also be safe to assume every Spider-Man is good. And then he sees Peter fight Dr. Strange to stop them from dying. Then he sees Peter making cures to help them. Then he sees him succeed with Octavius. All avoiding using the box. But he still doesn't trust him and belittles his efforts. I'm also not entirely sure why he just left when shit went bad, instead of, you know, helping. He couldn't have stopped Electro, but he would've stopped Goblin, saving Aunt May.
Goblin, Doc Ock, and Electro all get story arcs not just for this movie but that continue the stories in their original movies. Which Sandman's introduction to this movie perfectly does. While I do think him attacking Peter for killing Electro is in character and noble, this is where the movie takes a wrong turn for me. It was awesome seeing him protect and team up with Peter, and then that gets cut short and goes in a completely different, underused direction. It's like his story stops after he gets shot; he says little and doesn't really do anything and then bails and then shows up at the end to fight alongside all the other villains where he only says "I don't care!" He gets a fraction of a story frontloaded and then a bunch of dead space.
2. I'm not even sure what the Lizard's motivation is. Does he want to get the box to go home not cured and try again, or does he want to destroy it and live in the new universe? Lizard doesn't even know if he dies. He just knows that he fails. I can't even say that they wrote him wrongly because he's barely even in the movie. We don't see him get captured, which Peter isn't part of or there for and barely gets interactioned with. He has no connection to Peter. They should've had a story arc continuing his belief in helping people and science. That would've been interesting. Lizard is by far the least cared about.
But I feel like both of these aren't the result of apathy or laziness because the writers kind of had no choice. Because of reasons unknown to the public, those actors didn't show, so they couldn't do anything with their characters resolution for when they turned back human. And coronavirus caused VFX shortages, so they were also limited in what they could do with their CG forms. This is why Venom was actually going to show up to fight in the final battle but was cut and why Lizard didn't go in the apartment. So both human and super forms were handicapped. The movie couldn't do anything more.
Yeah Sandman was wasted, I feel like they could have had Osborn make a threat like “If you don’t join us, Uncle Norman will give little Penny a visit!” Or something but I don’t see why Sandman would want to Join them also he didn’t die to my recollection with Lizard I suppose you could maybe make the argument that Peter curing Connors kills the Lizard side of Connors but unlike other media where the Lizard is clearly another personality, here he is just Curt Connors as a giant lizard!
i love how a random youtube comment does a better job with a character than a billion dollar franchise…
@@smileyface6583they arint perfect
Them turning Harry's death into a joke is still the worst part for me.
No shot you cared that much about Harry
Who is harry
@@crocdog5278 Harry Osborn
I was going to give it a chance but then I saw that Peter is still dumbass so I was done with msu spider man
@@cwizard Of course we care about Harry. We have 3 movies developing his relationship with Peter and his father.
One thing that I will say about the Mysterio scene at the beginning is the fact that even though it is largely believed to be fake by the authorities, the general populous is usually pretty clueless when it comes to issues like this in real life. Perfect evidence doesn't mean squat to people who want to be right. This story can still continue after what Mysterio did because no matter what the verdict is on Spider-man, he will still be considered controversial.
And I got mad because I thought the way spectacular Spiderman predicted this exact thing was bad, but Man this is much worse! Not to mention the fact that a memory spell for some reason needs to tap into the multiverse!
If anything it was a mimic of cancel culture lmao, people don't care as long as it's supporting their side of things
@@erikbihari3625 aside from the fact that it's never brought up again, how was spectacular spider-man's Peter reveal bad?
@@n1ghtglare 1:he's visually sketchy. 2:who do they instantly believe it or wonder how he knows it? 3:venom is on a scale of one to ten is one place away from number 11-"BLACK DOOM"! 4:it's he's final appearence and a really underwhelming one.
the masses and crowd am I right?
The spell's exception would be as easy as "Have everyone who knew my identity from before Mysterio released it still know it."
Imagine how many problems with Phase 4 would be solved if Writers actually watched the previous films according to their respective characters so there won't be so much continuity errors.
Not nearly as time consuming as reading every comicbook.
The writers literally wrote at least 4 MCU films. I'm sure they do watch. Alot of what you think are continuity errors are not if you pay attention
I'm sure they watch but they do not give two shits about continuity
Not only watching the films but paying attention to them
@@nickbraley5718 Clearly you don’t if you think there aren’t a ton of continuity errors this phase
Not possible when crunch time is a thing with 30 projects within 3 years
First. If the multi-verse is infinite that means that somewhere out there someone else messed up the spell and everyone from every universe is coming meaning that everyone should constantly be getting pulled into new universes. A spell that affects other universes in the multi-verse can't exist otherwise every universe in the multi-verse would be affected because the multi-verse is infinite and that means someone out there is using that spell.
I’ve been in the middle of making my Bioshock Infinite video and this is a very similar problem I came upon as well. Once you start thinking about it for even a second, the whole thing completely falls apart. I had a headache for a week just thinking of all the ways interacting with the multiverse completely fucks up everything.
Yeah, I hate when people use Infinity or infinite .... They don't even know what it means...
and it means nothing bc it's a contradiction.
Not necessarily, sure there are infinite possibilities but there are not *all* possibilities.
Wanda is lucky that there are universes where her kids are 'alive' in MoM, Peter is lucky that there are not infinite villains coming to get him in this movie, but it's still possible for a configuration of universes to exist that makes this make sense.
Also a funny thing, if there are *all* possibilities of universes in the multiverse, then the universes cannot be numbered because each universe has uncountable configurations.
@@MagicGonads I'm not grasping what you are defining and meaning of this.
The first comment is right. If there's infinite multiverses... then some or alot of multiverses are going through the same phases or situations. Bc we can't count infinite, then all ideas count such as his and or yours.
Infinite is a contradiction in terms tho. It's like a square circle. It means to continue but have no start. Now for something to exist infinitely wouldn't exactly be the same thing. Bc it wouldn't be multiple of that thing but it would always be there and forever more. But multiverses is more than one thing, a continuation of things, in other words. So multiverse wouldn't exist if it continues but nvr start.
For you to be right, which I do agree with if I read correctly. Is if multiverses were potential infinite meaning having a start but does not end. Which in that case, the fabric of reality would be completely different on the view of possibility. Possibility wouldn't necessarily be about one situation and multiple outcomes... it'll more likely be multiple outcomes in generalization. To not even be counted
@@xpflowexclusive4313 no there are countable infinities, also not every infinite set is universal on the space of configurations
I so appreciate this video; there were so many inconsistencies and I wasn’t even aware of many of the ones you identified because I hadn’t rewatched the original Maguire trilogy yet. What was blatantly obvious to me and something you didn’t mention was Strange’s feelings towards Peter. He swung on a pendulum from showing ambivalence to compassion so inconsistently during the movie, it was jarring. On one hand he showed zero interest in keeping Tony’s unofficially adopted son safe and happy, and then at the end acts like he’s family, which zero visible growth between those positions during the film. I felt like I was watching a Strange stand-in at times, he was so OOC. So happy you brought up the spell work- that was so hard to watch, launching into such a dangerous and permanent spell with zero directions or introduction to Peter was nonsensical.
To add to the part about Strange not discussing the cons of the spell to Peter, Strange is a Surgeon, a Doctor, he should know all about sitting down woth a patient and explaining all of the details of a procedure before throwing them into it. There are things that make people not want a surgery done so he should've figured that thered be things in the details of the spell that would make Peter apprehensive about going through with it
But he's also arrogant and cocky. His callous disregard for proper procedure also kind of compliments his last movie.
@@kseriousr but he’s also a perfectionist, with nearly no failures in all of his surgeries. So why on Earth would he allow someone to disturb him while working?
@@abpdev True. And the final nail for me was, why not just erase the Mysterio's accusation instead of just erasing Peter's identity, or maybe erase people's memory of Mysterio ever existing. His arrogance stems from confidence and competence. For a guy who looks through fourteen million iterations to find the best outcome, he sure couldn't think of much better alternatives.
Woth
@@pumkin610 wath
I want to agree with you on the idea that nobody should believe Mysterio, but man I've seen the lies people will swallow whole in real life so that part feels like a documentary.
It should’ve been more divided between people that believe in Spidey and others that believe Mysterio due to conflicting pieces of evidence and…media narratives.
The last part could’ve been expanded on for an entire movie. In fact, the first part of NoWayback Machine drags this movie down because the writers wanted to BS some potentially great and relevant plot points.
This trilogy at worse disappoints me because it has good ideas but bad execution on a higher level than other superhero movies. This movie should be two movies instead imo since it feels like two different movies pre and post Stephen Strange meeting.
yea remember how some people believe Amber Heard
It's just that - while people are stupid, they're stupid in a different way than the movie would want you to believe. They are familiar with Spiderman, so they would irrationally disbelieve evidence _against_ him, not for him. Mysterio is relatively new and all they need to do is show how the drones created the fake images and how the video is obviously edited (because they have access to the whole thing) to show him as a liar.
People defend the familiar irrationally, and when they question it irrationally, they will seek out any gaps of ambiguity - but there aren't any in this case. There's too much evidence and absolutely no emotional investment for anyone (except maybe J Jameson) to hate Spider-Man, so it just wouldn't play out like this.
@@Arphemius
I'd agree but Jonah was also constantly stirring shit up and made it even worse
@@Arphemius You really don't know how stupid people can be do you?
Every second that Tobey Maguire, Andrew Garfield and Tom Holland were on screen was an absolute treat. I felt like I was 10 years old watching my first Spider-Man movie again
So after double-checking a few details, No Way Home managed to get something right about the Mirror Dimension. A sorcerer enters it (or sends an enemy through it) via the fracturing mirror wall, but a sorcerer MUST have a sling ring in order to cast a portal and escape it.
However, this brings to light several more problems...
1. Doctor Strange shouldn't be able to control the Mirror Dimension. The Ancient One and Kaecilius were only able to do so since they were drawing power from Dormammu and the Dark Dimension. For everyone else, the Mirror Dimension is used as a safe space to practice spells or to trap enemies within it.
2. If the counter-argument to that is Doctor Strange can do it because he's the Sorcerer Supreme, well no... According to No Way Home, Wong is the Sorcerer Supreme because Strange was dusted for five years, a technicality that they made up.
3. "Well, he can control it a little bit, or maybe he wasn't skilled enough yet to control it that much." Again, no. Mordo was there with Strange running around the Mirror Dimension at the end of Doctor Strange (2018). He seemed quite certain that they were going to die in there since they couldn't affect the Mirror Dimension. And if he could do anything at the time, he simply didn't.
4. Wait, hold on... How was Spider-Man capable of pulling two portals together within the Mirror Dimension? Not only is Spider-man not drawing power from Dormammu, but he's not even a sorcerer! And don't even get me started on Ned... He never should've been able to access the Mirror Dimension at all since he wouldn't have known what it was and because he opened it accidentally via the sling ring and not the mirror wall. Thanos (via the Infinity Gauntlet) and Wanda Maximoff can escape or negate the Mirror Dimension despite being non-sorcerers, but it's rather obvious as to why they can.
5. The Mirror Dimension isn't a seperate physical location, it's an ever-present fragment of the existing universe. If you presume that Ned can somehow unintentionally open the Mirror Dimension with a sling ring, the Mirror Dimension would've only opened up at the Statue of Liberty. Doctor Strange was at the portal a mere two seconds after it opened, so he would've needed to know where it was going to open in the randomness of the Mirror Dimension and flown there within that short amount of time. He was dangling over the Grand Canyon when Spider-Man left him there... 2,348 Miles away...
6. Sure would've been nice to have a safe space to practice that memory spell... You know? Somewhere where casting it accidentally wouldn't have affected the real world...
Fff
YOU'RE ASKING TO MUCH TO AN STUDIO WHO THINKS SCHIZOPHRENIA & TID ARE THE SAME THING & IT'S SOMETHING RELATABLE & FUNNY
About green's goblin change in personality, in the first movie he didn't remember killing his assistant which was an isolated case maybe he developed a resistance to it or just subconsciusly blocked it out, we can also assume that gobly was in charge the whole No Way Home movie (I know pretty convenient) and was just pretending to be poor fragile Osborn (you can see the goblin persona leak out when he was supposedly pretending to be Norman when they tell him that he died, like "wth, I died by the hand of this pathetic runt?!" with an expression of disbelief and anger + goblin voice to booth).
Hope I'm not reaching too much.
Then why would he have had the whole panic attack in the alley and smash the helmet? He didn't have to pretend for anyone then
@@nunya7764 uh, yeah, that was stoopid too then.
@@luismaldonado3968 why can't we all just say that his mental state is unpredictable and can't be boiled down to a particular pattern or diagnosis?
@@Lanesra62905 Or to plot convenience?
@@Lanesra62905 He's just a mess of a character.
You should totally consider being a Profesional Script Supervisor. Picking not only simple continuity errors but also pointing out the effect of the errors and how to correct them is not an easy task to do. From a fellow TH-camr, good job mate.
I think all Marvel and DC needs is a team of comic book fans as advisors on their movies, but instead they hire people that don't even read comic books and expect everyone to just put up with their bs.
DC and MCU doesnt use that its literally easy to pick apart most of these movies by using plain and simple logic. Dr. Strange shouldve soloed this on his own and shouldnt of even needed Peters help. Strange messing up the spell because of Peter made no sense this is a Strange who fought Thanos and was casting spell literally in life-threatening moments but Peter talking knocks him off makes no sense.
tbh movies will be almost impossible to make in order to make them play as realistic as possible
@@time2play961 not about realism, just consistency.
@@time2play961Peter Jackson begs to differ.
Madvocate absolutely needs to review Daredevil. Every season. It’s just too good not to talk about.
"this is the last time I say something good" meaning that's probably not gonna happen since he loves dare devils
every episode
@@dethpooldeadpool6203 nah he might retcon himself just for the fun of it. I think it would be and interesting video to make, but I suppose I’m not Madvocate so who knows what he wants to do
Maybe we should request the affleck movie! Or since the Scarlet Speedster is done for, how about the cinematic adventures of sega's own Blue Blurr?
@@erikbihari3625 Both equally good options. Maybe we could go as far as subjecting him to good old Batman and Robin?
The part about Peter's friends being the only ones to survive drone attacks makes sense. kind of. If the drone decided to attack everyone they might have gone for his freinds before Peter realized and called then off. If they tried to come out about they could be labeled liars by mysterio supporters because they have ties to peter. Great video, keep uo the good work.
Spidy is one of the people who stopped Thanos....... That would give him so much popularity that people wouldn't just not believe the obvious lies of mistyrio but also not care if he killed him
"A herald of Galactus"
In comics we also have what's called an outlier, in simple terms it's used when referring to a feat a character has accomplished that is way out of the normal level the characters are at.
an example of which being Batman kicking and managing to stagger/damage eternity, a being which can stand up to a serious Superman, while he's in a regular Batsuit with no buffs.
Spidy is regularly portrayed with struggling against foes who the firelord would win 10/10 times against without trying.
Also also spidy has the black suit in that panel, something which buffs everyone of his physical stats and makes him far more aggressive, which is a big thing since in comic canon Peter is always holding back. this on top of the black suit means this feat isn't comparable to MCU Pete fighting strange.
And if he really wants to use comics for this fight, Peter shouldn't be able to use his precog since it doesn't work on people he subconsciously views as friends/part of himself/not a threat to his being (its why Venom can sneak him sometimes since the spidy sense views the symbiote as part of Peter).
Actual bait
Another Outlier I can think of is Grey Hulk destroying an astroid bigger then the earth.
Actually the black suit in the comics didn’t emphasise Peter’s rage and strength, that idea was introduced in the 90’s animated series.
Pretty sure that was the cloth black suit. Even if it wasn’t the black suit didn’t give him any powers besides unlimited webbing until Spider-Man TAS
I agree with everything, though I have to make one correction. Peter didn't have a Black Suit power boost in the comics. That was something for the Spider-Man TAS cartoon that was then utilized in future cartoons aswell as Spider-Man 3. The only thing the Black Suit did was:
A. Repair itself
B. Have peter instantly wear it
C. Have peter take it off easier
D. Give him nigh-infinitely generating webs.
'side from that, pretty good-
Regardless of its obvious writing issues NWH was probably one of the most exciting movies I've seen in the theater in a long time. Had a lot of fun watching it, and it made up for the pretty obvious plot issues for me
Not bad. I just loves seeing Andrew Garfield's Spider-Man getting some love. I despised TASM 2 but I thought he was great.
I agree
@@loganscott814 It is nice to see Actors getting more respect for iconic roles now, even if I hate the nostalgia cash grabs around them. Same goes for hayden christensen in his role of Anakin. Sure Obi Wan Kenobi was so SO bad, but people are finally realizing that acting is pretty hard and Hayden Christensen worked hard to play the role of Anakin even of the dialogue and script writing was just bad in places.
@@vullord666 those short scenes of Anakin and Obi-Wan training might just be some of my favorite scenes in all of Star Wars now tbh, just sucks the show itself wasn’t very good ):
@@loganscott814 Andrew's emotional moments in this movie hit so hard. He's so great
“My brother in Christ.” caught me completely off-guard. I’ve been laughing with tears in my eyes for the past five minutes rewinding that part.
Really?
@@wrisst1712ummm yeah I wouldn’t commented it if it wasn’t true lol
@@AntwainMusic you can't expect an explanation like that to hold up
Sure you did.
About the Astral Projection, in Doctor Strange, they mention that "Your [Strange's] body hasn't even hit the floor yet", implying that there is a bit of superspeed implicated in that one scene. Other than that, this is a pretty valid video
this video is about to be a certified madvocate classic 🥶💯
swear to god
Correct
Ong
If he covers the affleck movie or the Blue Blurr himself, those Will be the real high lights! >:)
True
Bird man picks weird hills to die on sometimes.
I mean he was right though.
@@Senku05 in what lol
@@yasso222 in debunking madvocate.
What else would he be right in?
@@Senku05 oh I didn't know he had made a response
@@yasso222 yeah its listed under 'my response to madvocate'
And in that video he debunks his statements in this one and he makes it clear that he was dragged into this argument without prior knowledge
As much as I loved the movie, it does have its flaws. Sandman didn't need to be cured because he was no longer a threat and he didn't die, and Lizard was already cured at the end of TASM (Electro should have told him he didn't die). The only ones who needed to be cured were Norman, Otto and Max.
Also, why did they never include Topher Grace'd Venom and TASM 2 Green Goblin? They also knew about Spiderman's secret identity.
Ig Electro didn't tell lizard because he didn't gaf or he was still hung up on the fact that he himself was gonna die.
To be fair, mysterio’s video doesn’t hold up in court, it’s push through with hype and then gets dismissed. The people who believe Spider-Man did it are stuck on a hype train thinking he’s bad because they believed the first source they trust.
So it's a metaphor for the whole movie! A hype and recognizability driven souless endevour?
@@erikbihari3625 ITS NOT SOULESS!! DONT YOU DARE CRITISIZE ANY SPIDERMAN MEDIA EVER IN ANYWAY!!!
@@hinamatsuro1908 just this particular one because it prayed on nostalgia without giving an enjoyanle movie as compensation. Every Time I see mcu Spiderman I feel the Percy Jackson fandom's level of pain át the butchering that went town.
@@erikbihari3625 ?? the movie is mostly good lol
@@erikbihari3625 it sure as hell was enjoyable
You have a great point about the sling ring. If you can just imagine someone like that and easily use it, then coupled with Strange's abilities to pour a glass remotely, teleport a gauntlet, and teleport people instantly, he literally has the powers of the space stone/ tesseract.
the part where ned talked about not turning into a villain and trying to kill peter could've been both a heartwarming reminder of tobeys friendship with harry, and then also a joke after. all they had to do was say something like "I had a best friend, we fell out of touch for a few years, he eventually became a villain and tried to kill me, but when i was about to die, he chose to jump in front of me to protect me." with ned still saying the "Peter I promise to not turn into a supervillain and try to kill you." but the writers decided to do le funny instead of caring.
I love that even though Madvocate nitpicked this movie to death, he still finds reasons to talk about how much he liked it.
"Nitpicked" in other words I don't have a way to counter these issues.
@@FazeRustyNuts These are 90% nitpicks. I
t's a movie set in a universe where a purple alien snapped his fingers while possessing some shiny rocks and it made half the universe vanish. The movie has a talking 8 foot tall lizard, a wizard who's travelled through time, a guy who is pure electricity, a guy who is made of sand, a dude with metal hentai tentacles that he controls with his mind and a teenage kid with parental issues who can run up a sky-scraper and hold a yacht splitting in half together with his bare-hands.
Who cares if there's some inconsistencies with concepts that don't exist in real life. There needs to be a movie at the end of the day and IT IS A VALID EXCUSE. You can't expect a movie to be entirely consistent with a concept that we can't even grasp. Half the shit Madvocate was criticizing had valid rebutals that would explain some of the "inconsistencies".
For example: It's 100% implied that most physical evidence that peter existed is completely removed, not just people's memories. He's in the process of a GED at the end of the movie so the fact that he graduated high-school is I guess retconned or whatever the word for it is. All or nearly all evidence that he existed is now gone.
What y’all call nitpicking, I call criticism and it’s why films like this, MoM and D&W don’t work
Multiverse ruins storytelling, not only that, these writers are just lazy and not even trying to make sense
@@ninjanibba4259 bro you’re watching a movie about shit that doesn’t exist if it isn’t entirely consistent who gives a fuck, the story is the important part
@@d3va383 I give a F, cuz I want good movies with good storytelling
Since when cuz something isn’t real, mean that standards should be lowered for content? That’s not how any of it works, we wouldn’t have cinema if people thought like you
The best part about having Peter leave his iron spider suit behind for the final fight is they could've just had it be destroyed by the villains during said fight. It stays consistent and further builds the villains up as legitimate threats, destroying the suit that essentially made Peter invincible
I think the writers went all in and did a bunch of things that were inexplainable because they knew it would get overlooked because of the nostalgia.
-Half of the villains shouldn’t even be in the movie
-Strange offering Peter an alternative to the spell only after casting it is dumb
-Flint finding out how Norman died because it was on the news makes no sense
The list goes on. I will say the movie was pretty fun though.
half?
@@tobsonasanya4765 venom doesn't know about Spider-man so he shouldn't be in the movie
@@Nemesis0921 legit. the venom sony movies dont have any references or mentions of spiderman really
@@Nemesis0921 didn't venom say something about a hivemind?
@@tobsonasanya4765 Venom told Eddie that 80 billion years of hive knowledge across universes would blow his tiny brain. You could argue that as an explanation but if the Sony Venom really did know Spider-Man why didn’t Strange detect him as one of the villains that got teleported in.
I love it when he always points out like 10 characters who seemingly have super speed it never gets old
I'm glad to hear your criticism about Mysterio's narrative, as it matches mine almost one-to-one. The entire tension of the second movie could have been resolved in one press event. Dump bystander phone footage, give context to "execute them all" referring to some protocols rather than bystanders to show it's a lame out-of-context cut, play the actual recording, demonstrate the drones' tech. Within 5 to 10 minutes Mysterio's integrity is so demolished that nobody should believe a word he said. With subtle (manipulative) wording, Spider-Man could present Peter Parker as an unfamiliar stranger (refer to him in the third person, calling him "Mr. Parker" or something), distancing the two identities, while also reminding the people it's still an underaged child that shouldn't be harassed because of an unreliable narrator.
The "This MFer Right here" transition made me laugh real good, good informative vid.
57:00 thank you for including that segment it was funny and it brings up one of the biggest issues I had with the movie, nothing major that affects the movie but Harry and Peter reconciling working together and being friends again was my favorite part in spiderman 3 and having that "he died trying to kill me" bit bothered me
"Spider-Man" has a hyphen.
I personally feel having all those magicians kicking around is a huge issue for the MCU in terms of writing.
It's like saying "We have an army but we can never use them because.........they're busy practicing making circles."
Madvocate about to destroy Disney with facts and logic
I mean... "Destroy" lol
technically, he destroyed disney and sony since sony was also involved with this movie.
@@henith7850ok
One of those films that has a few neat high points, but it's dragged so far down by the logistics of how everything works, and by its inability to keep many characters consistent. There's like a disease spreading through the MCU to assassinate Strange at every possible opportunity. It's a shame, the first film to feature the three Spider-Men deserved better. Fantastic video.
Spider-Man: I want everyone to forget that Mysterio revealed my secret identity.
Dr. Strange: Done...
Roll Credits 😂😂😂
I really love how Doctor Strange gets completely assassinated in this film and Multiverse of Madness. Benedict Cumberbatch must be so happy about his character
To be fair that happened ever since Infinity war just like Thor his personality and abilities are completely different.
@@thephoenix4093 because he slowly grows, strange doesn't
@@SuperDababy2 really though? In Ragnarok he became a comedian he never really was that way that was a completely different character suddenly he didn't even need his hammer anymore.
Happy about them dollars
@@thephoenix4093 Ragnarok explains over the course of the whole movie how and why he doesn't need his hammer anymore and he wasn't even comedic, he was very serious in comedic situations which was the funny part. I think the movie was trying too much to be funny but I don't think Thor himself was
glorious video. i love how you manage to thoroughly explain the plot holes and logical inconsistencies that burden the plot while still acknowledging the thematic goodness at the core of the story that makes it a solid spider-man experience. after so much cinema sins and people arbitrarily yelling at their screens both on youtube and twitter it's great to see some good-faith critique
Honestly, people being convinced by fake news is probably the most realistic part of the movie.
Given the world they live in, everything that would be considered "conspiracy theories" would probably be taken seriously given how crazy life is for them.
I don't know why, but I love Flint Marco's delivery of Norman and Otto's death.
Cuz t.h.c. is good actor/Pick for sandman but the credit goes to raimi because Spiderman vase the final ingrediant the comicbook superhero movies needed to explode in popularity and thus turn cinemas into burger stands.
Ok
Madvocate, you’ve done it again. Your rational discussion and logical criticism has made me realize some reasonable flaws in a movie I like. Thanks man, this is a great video
Watch th3birdman's video about this chump, you'll see how dishonest he actually is
"Dr Strange makes mistakes about magic since the very first movie, thats who he is"
the first Doctor Strange came in 2016, so Strange hasnt learned ANYTHING in these 7 years? why is he allowed to have access to such powerful magic?
FR. That argument only works if you pretend Strange’s recklessness and impulsiveness weren’t flaws he wasn’t supposed to grow past in that first movie. Sure, they were weren’t completely gone but I thought he’d grown past being THIS reckless and impulsive. This is the same guy who took the time to check if a spell needed to be modified for Asgardians but he DOESN'T take the time to plan out the spell with Peter before hand? It's not like they're on a time limit.
5 of those years don't technically since Thanos snapped him.
Madvocate, I’m glad you made this video because I had a lot of the same complaints, but missed all the critiques regarding the other movies due to not having seen them in a long time.
When he played the toby music. My entire body got goosebumps and didn't even think about it. The idea that you can't criticize something you enjoyed is so stupid.
It's hard to do when you love something to death and want to believe it's perfect.
Ok
If you have to criticize it, then that means it is undeserving of your love.
What I always considered odd is how quickly people jumped on the “Mysterio was a real hero, Spiderman bad” bandwagon. Spiderman was a well-known superhero, particularly known for saving lives and playing a part in defeating Thanos. You’d think that would get him a huge deal of public trust. Like, Stark’s business used to be considered questionable, but people loved him anyways --- and Spiderman gets shat on for one half-assed accusation?
Meanwhile, Mysterio is supposed to be “literally who?”. The dude appears several times to fight elementals -- and suddenly he is everyone’s favorite and his word weighs more than Spiderman’s? Also, Mysterio spun an entire backstory about being a traveler from another world -- which is easily shattered by a simple DNA test and forensic dentistry procedure identifying him as Quentin Beck, former Stark Industries employer. IIRC, this body was intact -- and given that people thought that Mysterio “mysteriously disappeared” after the battle in London, I thought that the S.H.I.E.L.D picked his body up to learn who the guy actually was -- especially given that he obviously had associates who can still be dangerous. I doubt that Mysterio destroyed all the evidence of his existence as Beck -- to the point that no trace remained. So, revealing that he never was a lone warrior from another dimension in the first days after London attack and bringing up the fact that he was actually an angry Stark Industries employee with expertise in holograms would have rendered his post-mortem reveal useless.
I feel it was actually a very loud minority, boosted even further by JJJ's podcasts and news. Haters seem numerous when you see them everyday. Tbf it was left vague so anyone can come up with different ideas to this
As much as I love this film I can’t deny that they butchered Tobey’s story with his villains. He is my favorite of the three and it’s a shame that Tobey was done very wrong in this movie which is suppose to be a kind of endgame for the Spider-Man franchise
How do you believe they butchered it?
@@ollytherevenant1653 how him and Norman never interacted once. Although he did save Norman he never spoke to him once. Sandman had no reason to go against the 3 spidermen and almost KILL Tobey in the process. The only one they did right with was otto but I wish they did more with his relationship with norman, and sandman
I’d have to disagree on the Otto front.
In SM2 the arms spoke to him at his lowest, his wife was dead and his dream crushed. They spoke to a man with nothing left to lose and advised him to pursue his original goal, which Otto decided to do no matter the cost, thus the darker aspects of his personality came out in full because why not.
He regains control of the arms and destroys his machine by his choosing after seeing the error of his ways.
In NWH they just give him a new chip and he shuts off like a robot and regains consciousness blissfull and happy as if the arms were in complete control of him the whole time, negating the nuance of his character in the original film and completely glossing over that his reactor still failed and his wife died as a result of his own creation.
@@danielwood6833 Exactly. All the villains in this film really got butchered with the slight exception of Norman.
@@danielwood6833 Thank you! Something didn't quite sit well with me in regards to how Doc Ock's character was handled in NWH, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it. After reading your comment, I realized that that's what it was. Just like you said, it took away the nuance of the character and totally dismissed the trauma he went through that allowed the tentacles to take advantage of him. Well said. I do love the movie, but it did some things wrong.
This is exactly what I've been waiting for
This is EXACTLY what I've been waiting for dude
The fact that Doc Ock knows Norman is a plot hole, but I feel like it’s only a result of the fact they had to cut down this film a ton for the run time.
Let me explain this theory, the scene where Green Goblin first appears is already very short and weirdly put together, and as we know from previs, there was an extended fight on the bridge scene, and presumably that’s where Green Goblin’s mask originally would’ve been destroyed and Norman’s face would’ve been revealed on the bridge, with Otto discovering then and there that the Goblin is actually Norman.
This was presumably cut due to not having the resources the complete the full bridge scene, instead they had to film a scene later with Norman destroying the mask on his own, which is also why that scene seems very last-minute visual effects wise.
I hate and love you madvocate,I love how you roast marvel and dc's "Inconsistency" but I hate how you are so right on pointing them out ahhhhh
Danny Elfman is my favorite composer. He has a way to convey emotions through his scores like no other. While I do believe John Williams is probably the best composer of our time, his scores are more catchy and earworms that you memorize for the simplistic medleys. Danny Elfman has a way to convey emotion and wonder. A few scores that really sell this are Edward Scissorhands, the Raimi Spider-Man trilogy, the Nightmare Before Christmas, and even some tracks from Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and Darkman.
Its too bad he sucks now.
You know, I have a lot of problems with the Iron Spider suit and "Iron Boy Jr" stuff. But I totally agree with your assessment. I was wondering at the start of the final fight where his Iron armor had gone, and then started wondering that again when you was trying to kill Goblin. I can understanding them to just want to do things classic Spider-Man style without extra frills, but that stuff's already such a big part of his MCU character and so strong that it honestly makes no sense why he wouldn't use it.
I never minded it, but I don't like it if that makes sense. I think that's the consensus too, it's powerful and it makes sense that Hed use it, but him using it takes something away from the Spider-Man we know and love. It makes him less of a lone wolf underdog hero who makes and does most things on his own if that makes sense
Basically: it's a symbol of the narrative issues a lot of fans have had with these movies. Peters reliance on Tony stark is logical but not what people want from this established character
One way the movie could've ended is that Peter tells Strange to make everyone forget that Spider-Man exist. If everyone forgets who Spider-Man is than no one would remember who under the mask and what his identity is. The ending would make more since cause now Ned and MJ would still be one of Peter's friends and Spider-Man can always go to Strange and asked him to erase all footage of Mysterio revealing Spider-Man's identity. Yeah Peter would no longer be part of (whatever left of the avengers), but at least Peter would have a fresh start, Aunt May would still have a nephew, Peter might get into MIT, and then we can still have that scene where Peter moves on and learns how valuable keeping his identity is.
Edit: To be specific, before Peter became Spider-Man.
I love how in every video Madvocate calls out a fuckton of people so casually its great to see
1:05:29 I love how his description of becoming ragefull and no longer pulling his punches implies that rhino gets brutally beaten to death in this scene right in front of the kid in the Spider-Man costume.
Madvocate: "How does Mysterio exposing Spider-Man convince the world?"
Me: "That's what I've been saying since the Far From Home end credits scene."
I always loved the in-depth way you ripped apart the flash and inspected it in such detail. It is so great seeing that same deep review going into other movies. I could watch you tearing apart movies all day.
21:09 this is really the answer to the entire movie and it's super weird that neither Peter nor Dr. Strange thought of that.
The "time spell" should JUST be *_"Make everyone forget what Mysterio said"._*
And if he wanted to be anal about things he could have added *_" as well as anyone who found out I was Spider-Man as a result of Mysterio's actions besides MJ."_*
With the logic of how this movie says the spell works, any evidence of Mysterio revealing Peter's identity should just be erased from existence, but nothing prior to that...
I would have thought of that as a FIRST option. Not _"Have everyone forget I'm Spider-Man"._ I mean, I get that Peter is supposed to be 16-17... But he's also supposed to be a bit of a genius... Not just academically, but in terms of problem-solving and reasoning capabilities. He's supposed to be operating at a higher level than some typical 16-year-old burn-out.
Just saying.
I agree.
In spite of the many flaws of No Way Home, it's my favorite MCU Spiderman film after Homecoming, and my favorite MCU film in Phase 4. Although, my biggest issue with the film is that they didn't need to involve Dr. Strange in this film at all, and could have introduced a villain like Scorpion in this film; from what I remember about his backstory, he was created by Jameson, but we could go with something along those lines. I know that doesn't give us the other Spidermen, but that's a worthy sacrifice.
The only good thing to come out of Phase 4
This movie is the perfect reflection of the m.c.u. a mess with plot holes so many and big it's like driving semy trucks through city sized swiss cheese, with the only thing holding it togather are duct tape and nostalgia/fanservice, with characters quipping at each other basically saying:"hey audience it's just a dumb superhero comicbook movie don't take it seriously and buy our product"!
@@anyways4438 you're mad? It's just as bad as shang chi or black window!
“It’s my favorite MCU Spider-Man film after Homecoming”
So, it’s your second-favorite out of three movies?
@@anyways4438 lol only
You should definitely do Doctor Strange:MOM. You’re gonna have the time of your life.
Birdman: I'm guessing that he hates this movie.
Madvocate: I liked the movie. I really did.
Viewers to Birdman: LAIR
Pretty much why I stopped watching Birdman.
He is not Dr Strange, he is Dr Who since he has a complete different personality. So does Wong
Nanananah he's mr wierd
He isn't any Dr Who. He is Chibnal era Dr Who.
@@ZelphTheWebmancer My Guy!
My problem with your videos is that I can listen to you talk for hours without realising time has passed.
I almost missed an exam because I was watching your video.
Keep making addictive content
30:22
I don’t why this is so funny to me but Tom just spinning around while the others do nothing is hilarious
I made a critique of this movie and some guy defended it with “It’s an open magic system, anything goes” and “This 3rd person movie’s flaws and hypocrisy’s and stuff is solved because unreliable narrator.”
Like I swear I only see these 2 general arguments used because fans can’t defend a bad movie logically…
If its an open magic system could strange not just make a spell that would make everybody forgot spiderman is Peter without it affecting is friends while still bringing the villains back
I mean anything goes right
Honestly, the fact that the magic is as open as it is creates a lot of problems, particularly with MoM. Any time a fight happens, the magic users just pull an assortment of random crap out of their ass that makes it impossible to know exactly what tools they're working with here, and creates situations where they don't use the more effective magic in certain scenes because the magic they do use is a prettier visual. It cripples the stakes.
@@crocdog5278 that's the problem with a powerful magic system in a universe where magic is not the main/most common power system. People like Strange and Wanda could crush their opponents like tin foil and manipulate so many parts of the universe with ease. Introducing these characters and adding spells creates a host of issues, especially when you don't establish that these spells are too powerful or new, case in point the forgetting spell.
The MCU needed a hard magic system that can be broken in certain aspects or within certain conditions imo, such as Wanda have open magic system since she uses chaos magic.
Well for magic there is no one rule for magic since it's not real. We have rules cause things follow the laws of physics magic is made up so it doesn't follow those laws. So yes anything goes when it comes to magic unless the person who is writing the story says it doesn't and that's what we get for using a power source based on nothing held back by also nothing
u-unreliable narrator??? how does that argument even come to mind lol
32:20 I’m not sure if this counts as out of universe but in some versions peters spider sense doesn’t detect venom because his spider sense views the symbiote as a friends after the time Peter shared with it so if we follow that logic Peter stands even less of a chance because it’s safe too say peters spider sense would count strange as a friend but take this with a heavy grain of salt because it hasn’t been confirmed
Well and even then, 2 seconds after that madvocate gives another reason that makes the scene stupid even if the first reason is invalid lol
@Rando Viewer that was no where near what I was talking about I was saying that Spider-Man’s spider sense doesn’t work on friends this has nothing too do with Sony verse venom
Edit: Key words “in the comics” and I even said too take it with a grain of salt
The comic explanation with Spidermans' Spider Sense and the symbiote was that because part of himself was permanently bonded to it, his Spider Sense registered the symbiote as himself. The idea being his Spider Sense would never react to anything he does to himself intentionally that's dangerous or self harming.
I think that Peter is not actually dodging Dr. Strange with super speed, his reflexes are just being enhanced with the spider sense. That being said, I hated how the movie never mentioned he could do that again
I want more Flash slander, you will do it, theres nowhere to run.
Honestly came into this with low expectations, but I was really pleasantly surprised. Aside from the “Inconsistencies: The Raimi and Webb-Verse” segment, I have to agree with pretty much all of your criticisms here.
I do still like the movie, but without a doubt there are serious inconsistencies with other MCU movies and butchered characters (mostly Strange). Nice job, you clearly know your stuff.
Yeah it bugged me that the Norman died because he gave into the Goblin persona, but this movie paints him as a helpless schizophrenic
Thanks for adding that Birdman rebuttal. Homeboy has been tripping lately 😅
I really never stopped to think about Peter's new suit not having the recording feature. You're right, Peter either managed to remove that on accident when "upgrading", or he deliberately did so, despite the final mission *definitely* calling for its use. This might be the biggest blow I've seen dealt to MCU Peter's character/smarts.
Other good points you raised were how Mysterio's narrative possibly convinces anyone, with Peter's friends being witnesses to the drone attacks, and the projection failing in front of civilians. I *guess* a defense might be that it was a last-ditch effort on Mysterio's part? He was just hoping maybe the public didn't understand what they were seeing, and that Peter's friends wouldn't be around to refute his video..? Kinda flimsy. And as for the shaky cam Mysterio has set up, there could've been one drone he set aside at the end of the bridge, to record him and also put a filter of some kind on it to make the footage seem like a hand-held, citizen's vid? To add legitimacy? That's all I got.
The forget-Peter-is-Spider-Man-spells are a lot more ambiguous, between this video *and* others I've watched that try to guess at/professing how it works/what it does to evidence of Spider-Man's identity beyond memories, I just don't think there's anything solid to stand on. Nowhere is it mentioned by Strange that the video exposing Peter would be erased. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't; it's pretty sketchy. It doesn't 100% erase documents of Peter Parker, and it doesn't *not* erase them. We just aren't told. We don't know if everyone who's seen Spider-Man unmasked (like Captain Marvel for example) either A) just had that whole encounter wiped, or B) they do remember that they've seen him unmasked, just don't remember *who* it was.
*edit* Ah, so the writers don't even know. "not allowed to divulge that" Yeah, okay man.
I definitely never let FFH's finale sink in all the way. Really appreciate the questions you raise in your stuff. Keep on truckin' with these essays!
11:09 I know plenty of people agree on this but it's still so cathartic to hear.
The montage of D+ shows' "finest moments" had me laugh-crying
I appreciate the work you did on each section's intro, with the words in Strange's spell. Impressive.
Also needed to get it off my chest because I encounter this everywhere: 16:50 past-tense of "cast" is still just "cast"
It didnt have a recording feature because it was still his ffh suit. A suit peter made on the fly and obviously didnt integrate into it just like how he forgot to add the extra web cartridges. Why would he be thinking “cant forget to add the camera” when his friends + hundreds of other people are in danger especially when again compared to the much more important web cartridges that he also forgets.
@@OrphanJupiter I don't think I follow, why doesn't the FFH suit just have the Karen/monitoring system too?
Personally I would want the video feature more than extra webbing.
@@OrphanJupiter What? He can't think to add video feature to his suit but can think to use geometry against Sorcerer Supreme?
Biggest blow to MCU Peter's smarts was taking dangerous villains out of their cells so he could bring them to a *portable* lab. It was utterly moronic.
I will die on this hill that Thor ragnarock was has the best strange appearance. Anyways, having strange not take any precautions before jumping in the spell is a direct opposite from Thor 3 where he double checks and makes sure that the anatomy of the person he’s portaling won’t harm them.
@Cristo Alba not his best though
While I also reconigzed the several flaws in the movie, most of them told in this video, particualary on the setup for us to get the good scenes, I can't really fathom people saying it was Nostalgia Bait as criticism, when this i one of the beter movies making use of the nostalgia.
Why? Because it makes use of it to not only improve the main character but also helps the characters providing the nostalgia (most of them, at least).
I will defend that, besides the moments with Dafoe, the best scenes in the movie are the various interactions among the 3 Spider-Men. They just don't put Tobey and Andrew and say "oh look! cameo", they are important parts to Tom's Peter development and support, and as a bonus, they get it too (come on, the scene of Andrew saving MJ must have hit the heart of several people in a not superficial way).
And even if it is not perfect or averages do to the inconsitencies, it still above several other franchises when they make use of Nostalgia, but with way more superficial value or less meaning (Most of Disney's Star Wars anyone?).
Awesome video, by the way.
Another video, another million Stans mad because you tell the truth. Don’t ever change Madvocate.
"The truth" ok buddy
I can not express my love for this channel enough. You have pointed out every inconsistency in my 2nd favorite film and I love it. And thank you for including ffh and iw and doctor strange and endgame. You should do the star wars movies lol. Also I love how you put the scenes from the movies over the narrative of nwh. That was awesome.
1st one is which one then?
@@spider-man6932 honestly... revenge of the sith
@@bruvie_editz madvocate should destroy the rise of skywalker and BVS
@@user-xy3ee8bw6j Massively agree
@@bruvie_editz I had an argument on Reddit with a TROS fanboy who said that Rey Palpatine wasn’t a retcon because “Kylo was lying to Rey.” The desperation in these people is hilarious 😂
I thought Doctor Strange's spell messed up because Loki made the multiverse split, disrupting how the spell functions... But then that wasn't the case, and what Loki did didn't mean anything for the movies
Same. its gotten really confusing
kevin feige said it did but then he admitted he lied. I just pretend loki isn´t canon.
I always thought that for the longest time.
I love this video, because it shows how you can enjoy something on a first viewing and acknowledge the positive experiences you had WITHOUT turning your brain off and pretending that it was perfectly written. I get the sense that a lot of people get hung up on their first impressions; if they enjoyed something, then it must be good - If they didn't enjoy it, it must be bad. Some media I'd praise as brilliant actually left me with mixed or weak impressions on first viewing, only "clicking" after marinating in my head for some time. Some media which I immediately had tons of fun with, I later realised was total nonsense. People should really understand that they're allowed to enjoy things while also pointing out their massive flaws in writing and storytelling. It's not an either-or situation.
The argument that magic can do anything and has no rules because its magic is just an excuse for shitty writing. Any magic system needs to have internal consistency, irrelevant of how hard or soft the magic is. Howl cannot make a person, despite the fact that he put life in a flame, and Dumbeldore cannot teleport to anywhere he wants, despite the fact he can just teleport to some places. These are all internal consistencies, and even tho its magic, the characters and the magic needs to follow its own rules, even if nobody knows them.
As Thor said, a technology is indistinguishable form magic when it gets advanced enough. To someone 200 years ago, Googling something would be literal magic, hand him a cellphone, and teach him to google things, and now he is a wizard, the cellphone can tell you anything about anything, but it cannot tell you the future, or what others thing. Magic is the same.
Another thing worth pointing out is that magic in stories is always a plot device, and because it's a plot device you can easily give it rules.
It's something that becomes an even bigger issue the bigger you do it as well. Like how Buffy had an instance of a wish demon character presumably creating an entire pocket universe in-and-of itself via a genie wish trick. Then they never much go out of their way to explain it, still leaving it as one of those incredibly difficult to juggle with writing decisions for what could've been explained far more properly.
@@somethingwithultra7231 Right? Like dang, how hasn't the world ended with all the vengeance demons
Sorry but once there are hard rules it's not magic, you've just created a different form of physics.
This video was amazing! Great job Madvocate, as always. ❤
I'm sorry but no. So many nonsensical points made
@@jwatts94 I will have to disagree.
@@jwatts94 can you name some examples?
I saw a meme somewhere that suggested the entire film would be negated if Peter just told Strange to have everyone forget about Mysterio rather than himself. Goes to show how broken of a foundation this is
Actually, no. That meme is absolutely ridiculous for one simple reason. Forgetting mysterio changes nothing, everyone would still know that Peter Parker is Spider Man, they just wouldn't know how.
@@lucinavonnolaran8728 And? The real only issue with Peter’s identity being known is the controversy with Mysterio and everyone thinking he’s a murderer or criminal. Otherwise it might put his family (one aunt) and two friends in danger but nothing else. Actually it’d probably be good for him. Heck, in marvel tons heroes have their identities known and it hasn’t gotten them slaughtered.
At the very least everyone forgetting Mysterio or what he did/just the video is the obvious first step. Try that and if life is still hard with people knowing you’re Spiderman try again. Not like there’s a use limit on the spell. Either way don’t start with the one that will upend your life the most.
@@vullord666
The spell he starts with is just having people not remember who Spider-Man is which wouldn't upend his life that'd just go back to how it was before. Also the video would still be leaked they just wouldn't remember who it was that's talking on there, because the spell, while admittedly not explained amazingly, doesn't erase the person's existence just people's knowledge and memories of them.
@@vullord666 Let me repeat myself. Everyone would still know who Peter Parker is. They wouldn't know how. And following that train of logic a bit further, suppose if (and this is incredibly likely) everyone started talking about Spider-Man, and they all noticed that they all happen to know who he really is. They'd then start searching for video evidence that they know who he is, not to mention, the meme says that the spell should've been to only forget MYSTERIO. Not the VIDEO. You can't say "Then have everyone forget the video", because that falls into the same issue. People would still know who spider-man is, and they wouldn't know how. Additionally, it would result, most definitely, in what I said earlier. They'd search for video evidence confirming that Peter Parker is Spider-Man. It wouldn't get a target off Peter's back, it wouldn't remove the video or anything tying him to it from existence, everyone would still know, thereby making the meme of "Make the spell cause everyone to forget Mysterio" utterly pointless and just exist for the sake of trying to add more fuel to the fire.
@@lucinavonnolaran8728 If we go with the assumption that making everyone forget who Mysterio doesn't erase the evidence with it, then doesn't that make everyone forgetting that Spider-man is Peter Parker also pointless, since it runs into the same issue that your assumption about forgetting Mysterio does? Cause by the end of the movie it is shown/implied that everything was fixed by making everyone forget who Spiderman/Peter Parker, even though by your logic doing this wouldn't/shouldn't erase any of the evidence with it.
i can’t believe people haven’t realized that this is Benjamin’s superhero channel.
This was a great video and I love that even given the fact the movie has a lot of problems, you openly said that you did enjoy it and I have to say I feel the same way as I loved this movie in the moment and briefly thought it was the best MCU movie because it hit me emotionally and of course Toby and Andrew were in the film so that boosted my enjoyment, but it was after the oh my god look it's the spider-men I grow up with disappeared that I began to see plot holes and this video pointed even more out to me, still even knowing those plot holes I still love the movie and I will gladly watch it again because it was a extremely enjoyable ride, through I do wish MCU projects would be better as most of the Phase 4 stuff has been mostly enjoyable but just riddled with plot holes or retcons that make the universe of the MCU messy as hell to keep track of.
Once again thanks for the great video and I look forward to what to put out next, btw it was your flash videos that put you on my feed and I've been watching since.
Same way i feel honestly