“Mother’s philosophy is just as corrupt as Ryan’s. By her standards, it would be better to have the entire world equally miserable than allow us to strive in our own behalf” - Eleanor Lamb
the Right philosophy that the world has flaws But has long as you have the right mindset and Ideals and making sure to have the Right ways of helping people you can show people a better path without becoming Blinded or corrupted by your own views and Knowing when to see The right way to help people
She’s the true face of altruism individual happiness is a sin it’s only when all are equally happy/miserable are people true themselves. She was just as wrong as Ryan was
This is wonderful! Lamb is a fantastic villain, because she is so wrong, and yet so right at the same time! I disagree, but what she says has scientific merit, and she is very compelling.
***** Oh, I wouldn't say I agree with her. Indeed, I would say her collectivist ideology is quite replant. Quite evil. But, she puts it across in such a calm and matter and fact manner, and inter-splices with facts, which lends her twisted views credence.
***** Exactly right! What's interesting is that both Rand and Mill have points to make, but these games show what happens when they are taken far to far.
She does not have the respect of Ryan and Comstock who built the impossible. Lamb is just a pretender lording over the ruins and exploiting the few survivors for her experiments. She had some interesting ideas though.
I'm glad bioshock 2 had the balls to do it's own thing and diverge from bioshock 1 just the right amount. The whole game is a sort of foil to the last one. In bioshock 1 you save yourself from becoming a monster, in bioshock 2 you save another from that fate.
_"This is not a sermon. I will offer no insight. Every word I speak, you already know."_ // _"I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. These people will liberate themselves."_ // _"I will make no proclamations. I will dictate no laws. The Great Chain moves slowly, but with wisdom."_ Gotta love these small connections between the city's political figures.
02:35 I really like this painting. It’s a beautiful visualization of the idea that we can fight our worst impulses and character traits; no matter what’s in our genes.
Her aims were pure, but she became a tyrant the same as Andrew Ryan, and was destroyed for it. Rapture if it had melded Ryan's beliefs and Lamb's views might have been a great city.
If It had melded the two it would have been nothing more than a ordinary surface city, where artist are sorta free but still constrained by petty morality, Scientists would still be controlled by the state and demanded their discoveries to "contribute" to the "greater good". Aka the dream of ryan become nothing.
But they wouldn't have melded, two extremes will never create a sense of normality. You can't call one man living in luxury and another man starving to death an ideal society.
Omg, there are so much sensitive topics on her speech... I can't believe I found so much philosophy at a videogame... I mean, i was reading Umberto Eco's moral writtings, and the one regarding secular ethics was totally complemented by Lamb's speech. I AM bio-shocked.
She's speaks of Ryan as a tyrannical leader of rapture, yet she claims to be "mother" to a specified family that is devoted to the common good of the people, yet the common good is stripping the individual from the self, allowing for the creation of a people with a single common characteristic of being devoid of the self. Without the self there is no individuality, and no true love of humanity. Eleanor Lamb stated that love is just a chemical, and we give it meaning by choice. Why doesn't Sophia understand that the true utopian is the individual who chooses to serve the common good, rather than be forced?....
because it can't. the individual subverts the collective, because the collective is a nash equilibrium only as long as it is unified. otherwise it instantly decays into ryan's city. an example? the ussr after the 1960's reforms, or china after 1970's deng reforms. there can be no compromise. the middle decays into the right.
@@sd-xx8ep I feel like humans are doomed to create societies with varying ideologies only for some people not to benefit in it and those few turn into many, then they over throw said society to create a new one. This process is jsut gonna repeat over and over again. We are gonna bounce from capitalism to communism to the middle then back to the left back to the right over and over again
I am surprise how many people think lamb was good and became a tyrant along the way. The game made quite clear that lamb was a narcisist and that was why she was pushing her ideas so unrelenting even in the face of failure
I don’t think so, I think Lamb was ultimately just an immensely disturbed woman that had entirely lost faith in humanity. She thought she could save the world in her own twisted way, I don’t think she was doing it for personal glory.
What's amazing about Bioshock is that you can have such cast and diverse conversations about what works, and what doesn't. Ryan was a capitslist, and created Rapture in order to create a utopia of ingenuity, hard work, and inspiration. It was a city where you could excell if you knew who to pay off, who to ignore, and how to work hard. Rapture fell because, with no regulations, there could be no laws. With no laws, anything could be done, including killing everyone. Sophia isn't a communist, she is a socialist. Altruism was bred into her, hammered into her very soul, and she scratched Objectivity and the Inclusion of Self off her list of what creates a utopia. And yet, she held the value of her daughter objectively, raising her to value only her intelligence, but gave her no outlet. When Elenor became a Little Sister, a product of Ryan's Capitalistic Rapture, a selfless creature who worked for the common good of Rapture, did she leave her daughter behind? No. She kidnapped Eleanor, and had Delta killed. Feel free to continue this conversation. I welcome your views on the topic of Bioshock.
I think in any case ideology is a mistake. Every societal issue is an issue between people and people are extremely multifaceted. We exist of countless possibilities and everyone has a different distribution of potential over all those possibilities. Then we also differ between personalities. Only people who place themselves on the pedestal of admiration, who fall in love with themselves, their ideas or their fabrication can conceive of an idea that is totalitarian. That is dogmatic. And that needs to be abided by, and controlled through penalty. Thinking that you can reduce nuance to bring about utopia. Is to fail to see the scope of your ignorance, to believe in your own grandiosity, and to judge that sufficient to deny humanity to evolve naturally: through negotiation and learning. Any story of dogma gone bad is interesting. It's the introspection of evil within the individual.
Sophia Lamb isn't a socialist either. I met actual socialists online, and they don't act the same way Lamb does at all. Socialists don't want to take away individuals. Altruism isn't about stripping individuality. It's about taking responsibility for people who are suffering.
@SwordSorcery2020 So you're basically saying that we need to live in a world where there's zero sociatal structure except for people who "came out on top", which, ironically, is also social darwinistic by nature. All you're doing is fighting one extreme, with another extreme.
@@mikeykitty1235 Not every socialist behaves like Sophia, I know. I am a self proclaimed Democratic Socialist. But in the situation detailed, killing Delta and kidnapping Eleanor wasn't taking responsibility for the suffering of others, nor altrurism. It was her desire to control the fate of her daughter, and others. Give charge of Eleanor to the woman who lost her daughter, convert a priest to teach her way of thinking. It's opposite to Ryan's worldview, but both are scewed one way or 'tother.
@@seattlegirl14 Yes, but every single comment here keeps talking about how Sophia's worldview describes communism and altruism, which feels like nothing but a bunch of stupid strawmans and centrist "Both sides are bad" garbage. Altruism is not about stripping people of their individuality. It's about caring about individuals. It feels like these people don't know a single thing about politics and only listened to far-right reactionaries on youtube.
recently replayed the first two games and she is such a great villain. You kind of want to agree with her on so many things. Humanity is its own worst enemy we are fractured beings each pulling in differen directions and that keeps us from building something better for all of us. But her conclusion is to remove man all together.
To me The Point of Bioshock is meant to remind you that as Long as you have the right mindset and ideals than your doing something for the right reason without becoming misguided or blinded but if Someone has the wrong kind of mindset and ideals than they will crash and burn without realizing their flaws or seeing if their actions are helping others or making theme fed up or annoyed with the way things are being handled
Andrews vision the anarchistic capitalism in which all are free to do so as they will no restrictions chaining progress of the great. But Sofia speaks of collectivism order above all to achieve paradigm of utopia the individual must be taken and purged, and replaced with the collective. Fundamentally the opposite of Ryan's philosophy and is unequivocally Altruism.
That's not how altruism works. Altruism is the ability to help people, and that if you can help others, it is your responsibility to do so. That's not stripping away individuality, it's caring for your fellow humans.
I think you can never truly make the collective happy, it always craves, always wants something, which is also true for an individual, however when everyone tries to make everyone happy, then no one is.
That's sort of the problem. For some reason everyone wants to side with a villanous extreme they align with than think for themselves. So enamored with the devil they know that they can't escape it's grasps. Ryan is evil, Lamb is evil. Neither believe they are: they may blame the individual or the group but never their own flawed ideologies. It's still shocking to me that a little charisma is all it takes to turn hypocrite murderers into saints in the eyes of their audiences.
@@Bobo011 She never thought that collective can be happy while there is an "individual". Therefore, a genetic rewriting which would lead to the eradication of self - only collective remains ...something like a hivemind
This woman went to Horoshima to help those in need, without resiving anything in return. When she came to rapture, she gave free therapy sessions to the unfortunate people of Pauper's Drop. In poker games, she lost in propose in order to give money to those who lacked. She believed that the right society was the one on which the self was destroyed, and a sense of compassion existed. Altruism, the desire to help everyone for the pure propose of giving others happiness. Lamb was right, rapture fell because feeding the ego only leads to self destruction. The greed and narcissism of Andrew Ryan, the lust for Adam of the people, the resentment of those who had nothing. It only took a little push for Fountain to bring chaos. Society will work in the right way only when all of us stop thinking "me, me, me, me.." all day long, and start thinking in others. Altruism, is society's only salvation. Remember, that the propose of life is not only to survive, but to achieve happiness, and true happiness is impossible, at least we start thinking in others.
ningengirai I can't find a way to agree with Ryan, but Lamb was on the right track. An individual is inspired to achieve their best by understanding what is best for a human being. Ryan thought that money, reputation and power were goods, when in reality they were really indifferent or just means to an end. The true end of the human spirit is not outside, but within. Lamb understood the darkness of the inner tyrant, but her conclusions were her downfall. If she had read Buddha perhaps, she would had understood that the ego is not defeated by blindly becoming a mindless tool for society, but a true human being filled with peace and compassion toward all beings.
Emphasis on "IF". Who know? She was in Hiroshima. She probably became familiar with Japanese culture, Shintoism, and maybe some Buddhism here and there. Perhaps detaching passions helped fuel her philosophy.
Her aim was noble, the philosophy had merit, but in pursuing the goals of her plan, she became the very thing she most reviled - the tyrant. Lamb was an impressive villain, both memorable and easy to hate, even as you wish the lofty dream she sought was attainable.
Ryan also failed to understand that individuality above all is ultimately self-destructive. His name is an anagram of Ayn Rand: a sci-fi writer who was driven by ambition and unyielding selfishness. She exploited, abused and manipulated everyone around her for her own personal gain. She was devoid of love, like so many fanatical Capitalists. Oh that's right. People often say that Communism (Stalinism especially) is a religion, and they're right. What these same people fail to comprehend, however, is that ANY moral, ethical or lifestyle philosophy when pursued vigorously enough can become a religion. Capitalism is no exception. It has it's saints just like any other: Rockerfeller, Disney...the man currently residing in the top job...all of whom keep deep shades of Ayn Rand and ultimately Andrew Ryan. They do nothing that is not self-serving and stop at nothing to get what they want. Lamb was a villain, no question. She used her own child for vivisection, violating even the most basic of Hippocratic principals. However, much like Fontaine, her actions still made some people happy and gave them the will to continue albeit only from an outward perspective. The truth of the matter is that there are no heroes in Rapture. Ryan, Fontaine, Lamb, Sinclair, Porter, even Tannenbaum: they all do what they do because they have a personal stake in the result. The only characters who do not are the Big Daddies. They, if anyone, are the only true heroes of Rapture.
@@MasamuneShinto actually as hard a pill it is to swallow, Ayn Rand was correct it all goes full circle it all adds up & it all makes up for itself self interest is not selfishness she didn't manipulate anyone, there can be no manipulation if everything done is completely voluntary she was not devoid of love, she was full of it love is selfish, one must acknowledge this & understand that there's nothing wrong with that it's lack of love that is selfless in order to say "i love you" you must first learn how to say "I" capitalism simply boils down to mutual growth through cooperation
@@MasamuneShinto tell me would you feel loved if your loved one said "i have no personal interest in having this relationship with you you need me to marry you & as such, i'm doing this for you & for your self interest, i personally have no stake nor interest, i'm not doing this for myself, only for you alone, i give myself 100% to you" would you like that? i would personally not want to have someone without a solid sense of self value, self worth & self apreciation it shows that i'm loving someone solid & genuine love is not something you can just give on a whim, it becomes worthless & worse it fails to become love if you love something indiscriminantly regardless of it's value or lack there of, then it's a lie your "love" is cheap & disposable if you say "i love everyone equally" is that precious? so you love me just about as much as you love your worst enemy? or a complete stranger? you love your loved one in the exact same ammount? nothing in abundance is precious love is precious only if it has value
Ryan respected individual goals and agendas to an extreme. Sofia Lamb demanded a hive mind. I think Lamb's philosophy boils down to an enormous God complex. I think she wanted to believe she knew all the answers to correct everything that destroyed Rapture
For every choice, there is an echo: with each act, we change the world. One man chose a city, free of law and God. But others chose corruption... and so the city fell. If the world were reborn in your image, would it be paradise, or perdition?
Is there a version with no music available? Would like to sample this. This is great by the way, I played b2 but never heard this speech in its entirety, or if I did I wasn't in a place of mind to appreciate and remember it.
Hi, I do have the speech with no background music. Give me your email and I can send it to you any time, just give me some credit for the time it took me to download and organize the speech ;) I'll love to see what you can do with it! Greetings!
***** Hi, I sent you the email as requested. I hope to see something nice with it soon, and maybe receive some credit :) Keep it up, spread the word, and SEEK UTOPIA!
AIRLINE500 Hey! could you sent me the speech without music, please? My email: ivann92@hotmail.com or vbk.vanbastik@gmail.com Thanks! I give you credits when the release go to sale :D
I am worried about so many comments talking about this character taking it very seriously saying that he is a communist and that I do not know why ... I would say very much that he is a socialist ... but it is to take with a grain of salt, he is an idealist, and is among the populist line of a psychologist integrating a group of deranged people, because no matter how right-wing you are, you know that you do not live without being integrated with society, but this woman takes the issue to the elimination of individualism, a very dangerous question for mental health, because you lose that sense of self-recognition, and you no longer want to create a society but rather a hive of ants, and that is neither left nor right, that is a totalitarian sect
When I replayed the trilogy, a theory came to me: Sofia Lamb could be a Zachary Comstock variable, just as Eleanor would be an Elizabeth variable. Here are several points on why I think this: _ Sofia and Zachary both founded a fanatical cult centered around them and both proclaimed themselves to be the voice of reason. _ Both Elizabeth and Eleanor, from childhood, were worshiped as divine chosen ones, used as weapons by their own parent and designated as destined to bring a new Eden to mankind. _ The names of Eleanor and Elizabeth are quite similar, and moreover, Eleanor's family name, Lamb, can refers to Elizabeth who was referred to as "the lamb of Columbia". _ At the end of Infinite, Zachary dies by being drowned, and at the end of Bioshock 2 (even if it depends on the moral choices of the player), Sofia Lamb can also die drowned. Just coincidences or not, I don't know, but I like these kinds of theories.
Honestly, I think the writers did an amazing job, because I can't really remember hating anyone in any game as much as I hate her, mostly because of what she did to Eleanor and Sinclair. I went for the pure good ending, though forgiving her seemed very unfair to me. I'm glad I taught Eleanor that forgiveness is victory and you have to be merciful, yet It feels so wrong that Sinclair never got avenged. I'd love the main lesson that Eleanor learns from Delta to have been something like: "Evil is just a word. Mercy is victory, unless we are talking about a bitch who killed someone you cared about on purpose in one of the most cruel and painful ways possible, then kill her, kill her with fire. In other cases, yeah, always be the good guy and forgive when given a chance. ":)
It's really a paradox, how can anyone be happy if everyone is trying to make everyone else happy, it's and endless spiral of misery, only those who rise from it and take happiness for themselves, are they truly happy.
@@edgarduartegutierrez9860 When you do it as your own desire, Altruism on the other hand demands that everyone became like a saint, who always helped others without ever thinking for your own happiness, which sounds nice until you realize the horrible implication of it when it's imposed by others. Basically people who demand from others to be altruistic, usually have bad intentions and use it for their own benefit.
@Callum Booth 1. I never mentioned either points you said 2. In both cases you have to only think about the interests of either the group you're apart of or the struggles of the lower classes, which again, sounds nice and fair, but when people are forced to remove their individual desires, it not only makes them miserable, but also makes them hate the people they're supposedly helping, basically it's self-conscious altruism, people tend to preach about their good deeds, rather then actually do them. 3.Selfishness is selfishness, people who only think about their pleasure with disregard to others are bad, there's nothing special about it. All and all, helping people isn't bad, as long as you do on your own volition as a pure desire of the heart.
@@natecorsn9097 both in extreme are... well... very bad one has been doccumented to bring horror the other one... has never been attempted in it's purest form so i suppose it's not doccumented only speculated
@@voltex12345 "real communism hasn't been tried, bro. Don't bring up all the times it has been tried and failed, they're not reeeeeaaaaaaalllllll communism!" - Your dumb fucking ass
@Pack -A- Punch By that definition, it can never be achieved without fully reverting to monke. And as much as I do think we should have never left the caves, you do have to realize that this is never going to fucking happen and you're a delusional tard if you believe in communism, fuck you
![[TH] 2024 PMGC League | Survival Stage วันที่ 1 | PUBG MOBILE Global Championship](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/FVFT-PFwU80/mqdefault.jpg)
“Mother’s philosophy is just as corrupt as Ryan’s. By her standards, it would be better to have the entire world equally miserable than allow us to strive in our own behalf”
- Eleanor Lamb
The beauty of these games
That’s the ultimate question both extreme individualism and extreme collectivism are both wrong the truth is somewhere in the middle
@@asher8754 thing is the middle can never be reached since both are equaly opposite of eachother.
the Right philosophy that the world has flaws But has long as you have the right mindset and Ideals and making sure to have the Right ways of helping people you can show people a better path without becoming Blinded or corrupted by your own views and Knowing when to see The right way to help people
“we are born believing the world turns for us alone and we die in the futile attempt to make it so”
Jesus what a line
She’s the true face of altruism individual happiness is a sin it’s only when all are equally happy/miserable are people true themselves. She was just as wrong as Ryan was
This is wonderful! Lamb is a fantastic villain, because she is so wrong, and yet so right at the same time! I disagree, but what she says has scientific merit, and she is very compelling.
That's a trait of a great villiain, they say things that make sense and you can't help but agree with despite knowing that you must stop them
*****
Oh, I wouldn't say I agree with her. Indeed, I would say her collectivist ideology is quite replant. Quite evil. But, she puts it across in such a calm and matter and fact manner, and inter-splices with facts, which lends her twisted views credence.
*****
Exactly right! What's interesting is that both Rand and Mill have points to make, but these games show what happens when they are taken far to far.
@@josephward3125 who's mill?
300th like
Everyone likes to shit on Bioshock 2, but Sofia was a really good adversary and contrast to Andrew Ryan.
They're proof that both sides of the political spectrum can be deadly if pushed to their extreme.
She does not have the respect of Ryan and Comstock who built the impossible. Lamb is just a pretender lording over the ruins and exploiting the few survivors for her experiments. She had some interesting ideas though.
titanicww2345
Her most distinguishing factor is being an extreme left winger, she represents essentially Marxism.
@@VGamingJunkieVT more like socialism
Socialism IS Marxism, Marxism follows the ideals of Karl Marx, which lead to Communism and Socialism.
I'm glad bioshock 2 had the balls to do it's own thing and diverge from bioshock 1 just the right amount. The whole game is a sort of foil to the last one. In bioshock 1 you save yourself from becoming a monster, in bioshock 2 you save another from that fate.
Objectivism 1. Collectivism 2.
_"This is not a sermon. I will offer no insight. Every word I speak, you already know."_ // _"I am not a liberator. Liberators do not exist. These people will liberate themselves."_ // _"I will make no proclamations. I will dictate no laws. The Great Chain moves slowly, but with wisdom."_
Gotta love these small connections between the city's political figures.
It's really a shame that none of this wisdom was in Comstock.
Where is that liberator quote from?
@@magamynaga5205 Atlas
@@Bobo011 Comstock is nowhere near Ryan, Fontaine or Lamb. Such a shame.
@@Bobo011 Comstock was a schizo and a joke of an antagonist
02:35 I really like this painting. It’s a beautiful visualization of the idea that we can fight our worst impulses and character traits; no matter what’s in our genes.
Her aims were pure, but she became a tyrant the same as Andrew Ryan, and was destroyed for it. Rapture if it had melded Ryan's beliefs and Lamb's views might have been a great city.
Sith Lord Revan it would've been
If It had melded the two it would have been nothing more than a ordinary surface city, where artist are sorta free but still constrained by petty morality, Scientists would still be controlled by the state and demanded their discoveries to "contribute" to the "greater good". Aka the dream of ryan become nothing.
@@wugabriel3465 artists are constrained by the "Censor"
a melded city is not a nash equilibrium, it would have decayed into ryan city.
But they wouldn't have melded, two extremes will never create a sense of normality. You can't call one man living in luxury and another man starving to death an ideal society.
Sofia was ironically a tyrant just like Ryan. She became what she so despised.
Yes, she did. Just as Ryan burned down his Forest to keep the religious at Bay. She burned down what was left of Rapture.
Correct. The moral story here is whatever your ideology you will just end up the way all the other before you did when they took control, a tyrant.
ryan wasn't a tyrant he got mad because parasites had destroyed his city
@@RealBradMiller those religious scumbags tried to steal his forest lol
sofia was like that always while rayan got mad
It's amazing that they chose Fenella Woolgar to do the voice of Lamb
Omg, there are so much sensitive topics on her speech... I can't believe I found so much philosophy at a videogame... I mean, i was reading Umberto Eco's moral writtings, and the one regarding secular ethics was totally complemented by Lamb's speech. I AM bio-shocked.
Wise Abay Never heard that before “I am Bio-shocked” Nice quote.
I am bioshooketh! Sky-hook me in the face and call me your father!
That "I am bio-shocked" line really got me
She's speaks of Ryan as a tyrannical leader of rapture, yet she claims to be "mother" to a specified family that is devoted to the common good of the people, yet the common good is stripping the individual from the self, allowing for the creation of a people with a single common characteristic of being devoid of the self. Without the self there is no individuality, and no true love of humanity. Eleanor Lamb stated that love is just a chemical, and we give it meaning by choice. Why doesn't Sophia understand that the true utopian is the individual who chooses to serve the common good, rather than be forced?....
because it can't. the individual subverts the collective, because the collective is a nash equilibrium only as long as it is unified. otherwise it instantly decays into ryan's city. an example? the ussr after the 1960's reforms, or china after 1970's deng reforms. there can be no compromise. the middle decays into the right.
@@sd-xx8ep I feel like humans are doomed to create societies with varying ideologies only for some people not to benefit in it and those few turn into many, then they over throw said society to create a new one. This process is jsut gonna repeat over and over again.
We are gonna bounce from capitalism to communism to the middle then back to the left back to the right over and over again
"It is among the grandest of human ironies that our very drive to find Utopia has kept us from abiding there."
I FUCKING LOVE BIOSHOCK
Right? It's an awesome series.
Ryan and Lamb are excellent contrasts to each other as villains, with the same overarching theme of the series of the danger of extremes in belief.
I am surprise how many people think lamb was good and became a tyrant along the way.
The game made quite clear that lamb was a narcisist and that was why she was pushing her ideas so unrelenting even in the face of failure
I don’t think so, I think Lamb was ultimately just an immensely disturbed woman that had entirely lost faith in humanity. She thought she could save the world in her own twisted way, I don’t think she was doing it for personal glory.
I played this at school so many people got sacred
The best part is when they thought she was real and they loved her in the end
@@kobastalin5251 capitalism >socialism
@@greenkidd529 Amen, brother
I got sacred, too.
And now I no longer exist in my mortal form.
@@raptornugget5385 You're fucking delusional. There's more to that than "capitalizm killd thm!!!1" you fucking piece of shit
Andrew Ryan = SHODAN
The Many = Sofia Lamb
Fontaine is worth than the both
Andrew Ryan = Capitalism
Frank Fontane = Corporatism
Zachary Comstock = Theocracy
Daisy Fitzroy = Anarcho-Socialism
Sofia Lamb = Utopia
John Smith Fontaine was shodan
Thanks very much for this!
What's amazing about Bioshock is that you can have such cast and diverse conversations about what works, and what doesn't.
Ryan was a capitslist, and created Rapture in order to create a utopia of ingenuity, hard work, and inspiration. It was a city where you could excell if you knew who to pay off, who to ignore, and how to work hard. Rapture fell because, with no regulations, there could be no laws. With no laws, anything could be done, including killing everyone.
Sophia isn't a communist, she is a socialist. Altruism was bred into her, hammered into her very soul, and she scratched Objectivity and the Inclusion of Self off her list of what creates a utopia. And yet, she held the value of her daughter objectively, raising her to value only her intelligence, but gave her no outlet. When Elenor became a Little Sister, a product of Ryan's Capitalistic Rapture, a selfless creature who worked for the common good of Rapture, did she leave her daughter behind? No. She kidnapped Eleanor, and had Delta killed.
Feel free to continue this conversation. I welcome your views on the topic of Bioshock.
I think in any case ideology is a mistake. Every societal issue is an issue between people and people are extremely multifaceted. We exist of countless possibilities and everyone has a different distribution of potential over all those possibilities. Then we also differ between personalities.
Only people who place themselves on the pedestal of admiration, who fall in love with themselves, their ideas or their fabrication can conceive of an idea that is totalitarian. That is dogmatic. And that needs to be abided by, and controlled through penalty. Thinking that you can reduce nuance to bring about utopia. Is to fail to see the scope of your ignorance, to believe in your own grandiosity, and to judge that sufficient to deny humanity to evolve naturally: through negotiation and learning. Any story of dogma gone bad is interesting. It's the introspection of evil within the individual.
Sophia Lamb isn't a socialist either. I met actual socialists online, and they don't act the same way Lamb does at all. Socialists don't want to take away individuals. Altruism isn't about stripping individuality. It's about taking responsibility for people who are suffering.
@SwordSorcery2020 So you're basically saying that we need to live in a world where there's zero sociatal structure except for people who "came out on top", which, ironically, is also social darwinistic by nature. All you're doing is fighting one extreme, with another extreme.
@@mikeykitty1235 Not every socialist behaves like Sophia, I know. I am a self proclaimed Democratic Socialist.
But in the situation detailed, killing Delta and kidnapping Eleanor wasn't taking responsibility for the suffering of others, nor altrurism. It was her desire to control the fate of her daughter, and others. Give charge of Eleanor to the woman who lost her daughter, convert a priest to teach her way of thinking. It's opposite to Ryan's worldview, but both are scewed one way or 'tother.
@@seattlegirl14 Yes, but every single comment here keeps talking about how Sophia's worldview describes communism and altruism, which feels like nothing but a bunch of stupid strawmans and centrist "Both sides are bad" garbage. Altruism is not about stripping people of their individuality. It's about caring about individuals. It feels like these people don't know a single thing about politics and only listened to far-right reactionaries on youtube.
TED talks feat
Dr. Sophia Lamb
I came for the morphology of butterflies.....
Amazing speech
recently replayed the first two games and she is such a great villain. You kind of want to agree with her on so many things. Humanity is its own worst enemy we are fractured beings each pulling in differen directions and that keeps us from building something better for all of us. But her conclusion is to remove man all together.
To me The Point of Bioshock is meant to remind you that as Long as you have the right mindset and ideals than your doing something for the right reason without becoming misguided or blinded but if Someone has the wrong kind of mindset and ideals than they will crash and burn without realizing their flaws or seeing if their actions are helping others or making theme fed up or annoyed with the way things are being handled
Say what you want about the sequel, yes the mechanics didn't add much, but the philosophy the game was based around none-the-less hits close to home.
What’s wrong with the gameplay? I thought it was better than the first game
@@MisterJohnDoe it is much better
anyone else thinks that Bioshock 2 is better than infinite?
Spencer Hyde Why loath infinite?
A lot of games are better than Infinite. What a mess that game was.
Any Bioshock is better than infinite.
Bioshock 1>Infinite >2
DG THE YT KING Are you on drugs?
Andrews vision the anarchistic capitalism in which all are free to do so as they will no restrictions chaining progress of the great. But Sofia speaks of collectivism order above all to achieve paradigm of utopia the individual must be taken and purged, and replaced with the collective. Fundamentally the opposite of Ryan's philosophy and is unequivocally Altruism.
That's not how altruism works. Altruism is the ability to help people, and that if you can help others, it is your responsibility to do so. That's not stripping away individuality, it's caring for your fellow humans.
@@mikeykitty1235 but u cant force an individual to be altruistic
@@mikeykitty1235 Altruism is more based on the belief that humans must sacrifice themselves for others before themselves
@@juldor93Under capitalism, there can be no altruism and empathy. In the first place - money, selfishness and the principle: "Man is a wolf to man."
So, in short, she's a Borg queen.
Masterpiece.
Powerful words.
Sofia was such a good villain, they took a lot from she to build Comstock
Anger does not interfere with free will, as you still get to choose what to do with your anger.
I agree more with Ryan than her.
I think you can never truly make the collective happy, it always craves, always wants something, which is also true for an individual, however when everyone tries to make everyone happy, then no one is.
Then you are a peasant
@@albinhansson5817
"A man chooses, a slave obeys".
That's sort of the problem. For some reason everyone wants to side with a villanous extreme they align with than think for themselves. So enamored with the devil they know that they can't escape it's grasps. Ryan is evil, Lamb is evil. Neither believe they are: they may blame the individual or the group but never their own flawed ideologies. It's still shocking to me that a little charisma is all it takes to turn hypocrite murderers into saints in the eyes of their audiences.
@@Bobo011 She never thought that collective can be happy while there is an "individual". Therefore, a genetic rewriting which would lead to the eradication of self - only collective remains ...something like a hivemind
These kind of thoughts work well with insects, humans are not insects tho.
"The very idea that humanity can be molded into an idea shape"
yeah, try telling shodan that
This woman went to Horoshima to help those in need, without resiving anything in return. When she came to rapture, she gave free therapy sessions to the unfortunate people of Pauper's Drop. In poker games, she lost in propose in order to give money to those who lacked. She believed that the right society was the one on which the self was destroyed, and a sense of compassion existed. Altruism, the desire to help everyone for the pure propose of giving others happiness. Lamb was right, rapture fell because feeding the ego only leads to self destruction. The greed and narcissism of Andrew Ryan, the lust for Adam of the people, the resentment of those who had nothing. It only took a little push for Fountain to bring chaos. Society will work in the right way only when all of us stop thinking "me, me, me, me.." all day long, and start thinking in others. Altruism, is society's only salvation. Remember, that the propose of life is not only to survive, but to achieve happiness, and true happiness is impossible, at least we start thinking in others.
Well said, and I agree.
blackraven0513 Thank you!
She's my favorite bioshock villain. I'm glad she survived in my play-through.
ningengirai I can't find a way to agree with Ryan, but Lamb was on the right track. An individual is inspired to achieve their best by understanding what is best for a human being. Ryan thought that money, reputation and power were goods, when in reality they were really indifferent or just means to an end. The true end of the human spirit is not outside, but within. Lamb understood the darkness of the inner tyrant, but her conclusions were her downfall. If she had read Buddha perhaps, she would had understood that the ego is not defeated by blindly becoming a mindless tool for society, but a true human being filled with peace and compassion toward all beings.
Emphasis on "IF". Who know? She was in Hiroshima. She probably became familiar with Japanese culture, Shintoism, and maybe some Buddhism here and there. Perhaps detaching passions helped fuel her philosophy.
She's literally more libertarian than Andrew Ryan. She applies market logic to the brain.
Her aim was noble, the philosophy had merit, but in pursuing the goals of her plan, she became the very thing she most reviled - the tyrant. Lamb was an impressive villain, both memorable and easy to hate, even as you wish the lofty dream she sought was attainable.
arguably the most traditionally evil character inn bioshock. andrew ryan at least praised the value of the individual.
Ryan also failed to understand that individuality above all is ultimately self-destructive. His name is an anagram of Ayn Rand: a sci-fi writer who was driven by ambition and unyielding selfishness. She exploited, abused and manipulated everyone around her for her own personal gain. She was devoid of love, like so many fanatical Capitalists.
Oh that's right. People often say that Communism (Stalinism especially) is a religion, and they're right. What these same people fail to comprehend, however, is that ANY moral, ethical or lifestyle philosophy when pursued vigorously enough can become a religion. Capitalism is no exception. It has it's saints just like any other: Rockerfeller, Disney...the man currently residing in the top job...all of whom keep deep shades of Ayn Rand and ultimately Andrew Ryan. They do nothing that is not self-serving and stop at nothing to get what they want.
Lamb was a villain, no question. She used her own child for vivisection, violating even the most basic of Hippocratic principals. However, much like Fontaine, her actions still made some people happy and gave them the will to continue albeit only from an outward perspective.
The truth of the matter is that there are no heroes in Rapture. Ryan, Fontaine, Lamb, Sinclair, Porter, even Tannenbaum: they all do what they do because they have a personal stake in the result. The only characters who do not are the Big Daddies. They, if anyone, are the only true heroes of Rapture.
she sounds like Big Brother
@@MasamuneShinto actually
as hard a pill it is to swallow, Ayn Rand was correct
it all goes full circle it all adds up & it all makes up for itself
self interest is not selfishness
she didn't manipulate anyone, there can be no manipulation if everything done is completely voluntary
she was not devoid of love, she was full of it
love is selfish, one must acknowledge this & understand that there's nothing wrong with that
it's lack of love that is selfless
in order to say "i love you" you must first learn how to say "I"
capitalism simply boils down to mutual growth through cooperation
@@MasamuneShinto tell me
would you feel loved if your loved one said "i have no personal interest in having this relationship with you
you need me to marry you & as such, i'm doing this for you & for your self interest, i personally have no stake nor interest, i'm not doing this for myself, only for you alone, i give myself 100% to you"
would you like that?
i would personally not want to have someone without a solid sense of self value, self worth & self apreciation
it shows that i'm loving someone solid & genuine
love is not something you can just give on a whim, it becomes worthless & worse it fails to become love
if you love something indiscriminantly regardless of it's value or lack there of, then it's a lie
your "love" is cheap & disposable
if you say "i love everyone equally"
is that precious?
so you love me just about as much as you love your worst enemy? or a complete stranger? you love your loved one in the exact same ammount?
nothing in abundance is precious
love is precious only if it has value
Ryan respected individual goals and agendas to an extreme. Sofia Lamb demanded a hive mind. I think Lamb's philosophy boils down to an enormous God complex. I think she wanted to believe she knew all the answers to correct everything that destroyed Rapture
She became what she hated just as Ryan did. Both wanted to better mankind but in the need it’s that drive which spelled her own downfall
Anyone else reminded of the TF2 announcer?
2 238
5:39
6:36
7:04
7:48
8:26
8:33 mother
For every choice, there is an echo: with each act, we change the world. One man chose a city, free of law and God. But others chose corruption... and so the city fell. If the world were reborn in your image, would it be paradise, or perdition?
"This is your fault, Lamb! I will have your head for this!"
BASED
All hail the parasite queen
Is there a version with no music available? Would like to sample this. This is great by the way, I played b2 but never heard this speech in its entirety, or if I did I wasn't in a place of mind to appreciate and remember it.
Hi, I do have the speech with no background music. Give me your email and I can send it to you any time, just give me some credit for the time it took me to download and organize the speech ;) I'll love to see what you can do with it! Greetings!
Chasedpatrick@gmail.com
Will totes give you credit and let you know when I upload whatever I'm thinking of doing 😊
Chase Patrick I sent you the email as requested. :)
***** Hi, I sent you the email as requested. I hope to see something nice with it soon, and maybe receive some credit :) Keep it up, spread the word, and SEEK UTOPIA!
AIRLINE500 Hey! could you sent me the speech without music, please?
My email: ivann92@hotmail.com or vbk.vanbastik@gmail.com
Thanks! I give you credits when the release go to sale :D
I wonder what the person who voiced her is now doing with her live🤔
Sick.
4:45 Sounds like she's talking about kira
I am worried about so many comments talking about this character taking it very seriously saying that he is a communist and that I do not know why ... I would say very much that he is a socialist ... but it is to take with a grain of salt, he is an idealist, and is among the populist line of a psychologist integrating a group of deranged people, because no matter how right-wing you are, you know that you do not live without being integrated with society, but this woman takes the issue to the elimination of individualism, a very dangerous question for mental health, because you lose that sense of self-recognition, and you no longer want to create a society but rather a hive of ants, and that is neither left nor right, that is a totalitarian sect
Well said
When I replayed the trilogy, a theory came to me:
Sofia Lamb could be a Zachary Comstock variable, just as Eleanor would be an Elizabeth variable. Here are several points on why I think this:
_ Sofia and Zachary both founded a fanatical cult centered around them and both proclaimed themselves to be the voice of reason.
_ Both Elizabeth and Eleanor, from childhood, were worshiped as divine chosen ones, used as weapons by their own parent and designated as destined to bring a new Eden to mankind.
_ The names of Eleanor and Elizabeth are quite similar, and moreover, Eleanor's family name, Lamb, can refers to Elizabeth who was referred to as "the lamb of Columbia".
_ At the end of Infinite, Zachary dies by being drowned, and at the end of Bioshock 2 (even if it depends on the moral choices of the player), Sofia Lamb can also die drowned.
Just coincidences or not, I don't know, but I like these kinds of theories.
Hmmm... constants and variables....
👍👍🌊🐚☁️🎈
The VA did a great job of portraying the role of a normal sounding, charismatic leader with obviously crazy streak character.
some one has the transcript?
Try checking the wiki maybe?
**USSR ANTHEM INTENSIFIES**
Honestly, I think the writers did an amazing job, because I can't really remember hating anyone in any game as much as I hate her, mostly because of what she did to Eleanor and Sinclair. I went for the pure good ending, though forgiving her seemed very unfair to me. I'm glad I taught Eleanor that forgiveness is victory and you have to be merciful, yet It feels so wrong that Sinclair never got avenged. I'd love the main lesson that Eleanor learns from Delta to have been something like: "Evil is just a word. Mercy is victory, unless we are talking about a bitch who killed someone you cared about on purpose in one of the most cruel and painful ways possible, then kill her, kill her with fire. In other cases, yeah, always be the good guy and forgive when given a chance. ":)
altruistic through and through
It's really a paradox, how can anyone be happy if everyone is trying to make everyone else happy, it's and endless spiral of misery, only those who rise from it and take happiness for themselves, are they truly happy.
@@Bobo011 making someone else happy is incredibly joyful
@@edgarduartegutierrez9860 When you do it as your own desire, Altruism on the other hand demands that everyone became like a saint, who always helped others without ever thinking for your own happiness, which sounds nice until you realize the horrible implication of it when it's imposed by others. Basically people who demand from others to be altruistic, usually have bad intentions and use it for their own benefit.
@Callum Booth 1. I never mentioned either points you said
2. In both cases you have to only think about the interests of either the group you're apart of or the struggles of the lower classes, which again, sounds nice and fair, but when people are forced to remove their individual desires, it not only makes them miserable, but also makes them hate the people they're supposedly helping, basically it's self-conscious altruism, people tend to preach about their good deeds, rather then actually do them.
3.Selfishness is selfishness, people who only think about their pleasure with disregard to others are bad, there's nothing special about it.
All and all, helping people isn't bad, as long as you do on your own volition as a pure desire of the heart.
She was wrong in her speech.
In what way?
1,000 bucks and I’ll play this through the wal mart PA system
Exactly what a parasite would ask for...
The dangers of extremism, whichever direction
Andrew Ryan> Sofia commie Lamb
If only she read Stirner...
What’s this?
If this game was released today. "REEEE!"
What?
If you could breed the sin out of humans.. Target the gene and remove it ?Endless pleasure? Sounds good to me.
Tin man
THIS was from a Game ?
Sorry Lamb but I've seen your collectivist in real life and its inhuman.
No man is an island.
@@fleetstreet11 But hell is other people
Unregulated capitalism is impossible. Communism is inevitable.
Both are pretty bad...
This isn't communism lmao.
@@natecorsn9097 both in extreme are... well... very bad
one has been doccumented to bring horror
the other one... has never been attempted in it's purest form
so i suppose it's not doccumented only speculated
@@voltex12345 "real communism hasn't been tried, bro. Don't bring up all the times it has been tried and failed, they're not reeeeeaaaaaaalllllll communism!" - Your dumb fucking ass
@Pack -A- Punch By that definition, it can never be achieved without fully reverting to monke. And as much as I do think we should have never left the caves, you do have to realize that this is never going to fucking happen and you're a delusional tard if you believe in communism, fuck you
comrade Sofia i side with you against game theory and the tragedy of the commons ☭
Im the 740th liker
some one has the transcript?