I bought a muller passing choke and paired it with winchester bizmuth, knocking them out the sky. I never heard even thought about buying a muller choke or bizmuth until I started watching your channel. Thank you
Did you note the amount of secondary shots in that video? I wasn't overly impressed. Not to mention, I'd prefer not to pick a bunch of #8 out of my meat.
@TheNewHuntersGuide seemed like the geese were not going down as easy. Maybe just a camera perspective issue, but it looked like they sailed more birds. #8 shot is small, I'd rather pick out 6 to 8 pellets of #3 than have to pick out more #8 pellets. Maybe not an issue, without seeing in person I'm just going on what I know.
I loaded my own shotshells...12ga. 2-3/4. 1-1/4 oz. #4 steel. 1250 fps. The results were amazing and they didn't have holes in the pattern, I use Müller chokes. Each target was shot 3 times for averages. 30" circle. Decoy @ 35 yards, 70.3% of pellets in circle, 168.6 pellets per shell in circle. Passing @ 35 yards, 72.5% of pellets in circle, 174 pellets per shell in circle. Decoy @ 45 yards, 53.8% of pellets in circle, 129.3 pellets per shell in circle. Passing @ 45 yards, 66.3% of pellets in circle, 159 pellets per shell in circle. Passing @ 60 yards, 47.6% of pellets in circle, 114.3 pellets per shell in circle.
@riverviewhunting9474 they say in a 30" circle at any given range to consistently kill ducks you need 100 pellets for ducks and 70 for geese. If I was going to be shooting beyond 50-55 yards bismuth would be better
@riverviewhunting9474 yeah the slower speed just helps with the fuller patterns. Their is a company called Shotz out of North Dakota I think.....they are loading a 3", 1-3/8oz, #8's, at 1500 fps. They are stoning snow geese at 50 yards with them.
I've just recently started watching your channel. One thing I'd like to see is the BOSS original bismuth 3" 3/5 through the Carlsons Cremator mid and long range chokes. I personally shoot a Franchi Affinity 3, so if you have the ability to run that combo, it would be even better for me, but I'd be happy just to see your take on the choke/load combo. Love seeing the charts and patterns and all the data really helps me make sense of everything.
I have 2 affinity 3's and use both cremator chokes. Both guns pattern different with the same choke. I'd recommend getting a few different sizes of boss and papering it. I was amazed and kinda disappointed in myself for not doing it sooner
So the cremator is actually a steel choke, it has less constriction. Its the equivalent of modified and improved modified for most guns. Those two would be great for short range hunting with the legacy load. Not meant to be a long range combo.
@TheNewHuntersGuide How can it be equivalent to an improved or modified? The long range choke suggests 40 yards and beyond, and the midrange suggests 25-40 yards. I have also personally run steel loads through them and seen worse patterns. I'll have to test it out again and see what I find. What do you recommend for a choke for bismuth based on your findings? I typically don't shoot past 40 yards in most of my hunts.
Had amazing luck with Kent fasteel 2.0. Hands down would recommend those shells. From snow all over them to getting wet, had 1 shell not fire out of appx 6 boxes.
I liked the old school light gray Kent that made them a great ammo company, not sure about the 2.0 . Thanks George God bless you and go get them in the marsh.
Thank you for all the work you put in. I found doing similar test and patternmaster ansconda full and the momba out performed Carlson and Indian creek with most steel shot.
Let me add one more, Kick's High Flyer, through a Benelli SBE the Full and X-Full work amazing with BB and #2 Kent Fasteels 2.0. I wouldn't doubt they would work just as good with these new duplex loads.
I really enjoy watching all of your videos. The only thing I could ask is if sometime you could make a video of good cheaper ammo for turkey and waterfowl using a 20 gage if you have one
Thanks! Just recorded a 20 gauge video! Unfortunately good and cheap don't seem to be 2 words that go hand in hand with 20 gauge waterfowl ammo. But I tested multiple loads.
Thanks, George! I was disappointed with the Cremator LR performance. That's what I use and, constriction-wise, that should have been right between your modified and full. More concerned with the jams and failures to eject. Are you seeing that with other ammo types as well?
I was seeing that problem with this shotgun, so I sent it back to Mossberg to be fixed and just got it back. So far so good. But I've already shot most of my videos for the year, so there will probably be more failures to eject on camera but the gun has already been fixed. Don't take any of these choke results as gospel, on your gun, or with ANY other ammo, that choke could be the best.
It's probably nit picking and asking too much, but id like to see 3 shells cut open and take an average once. Just to see if there's any major differences in pellet count in the stacked loads, I wouldn't think there'd be much difference in single size loads. Nonetheless you're doing the best tests on the interwebs I've seen!
Just an idea for future maybe you want to try. Get a caliper so you can just measure your tube ends. Muller doesn’t advertise the size cause they are all different based on barrel diameters. But I like to know. I don’t have any mullers for a 940 so it would be fun to find out what a 940 one measures.
It's not a bad idea but honestly I think it's a mute point. Constriction and pattern density are only loosely correlated. I have several chokes with the same Constriction that pattern differently. I wish it was the exact science it should be, but it's not.
@ yea I know barrel diameter, taper, choke taper, and geometry of. But fact is you know a muller decoy is .7xx (for your barrel) and it’s not going to do what a whatever “long range sky limit creamation extended etc” is going to. So actually they typically are all about the same in an overall kinda way. They may change density, or flyers, but are still a good starting point if you’ve got a bunch. Or not to each his own. If you’re doing a video about it though… maybe add the comment not the end all etc. but for the most part nothing.010-.015 different is going to do the same. So imo it’s just what I do. On my main 12. I mostly use a muller passing. But the decoy just isn’t as good as the 710 or 715 Carlson right at 30. So if I’m in a 50 yard slough 715 one. In a 50-70 710 one. Wide I mean in total so obviously decoys in middle and half that. Or sun comes up and I move to sun to back side. And it’s easier to remember when you don’t have to cause it’s just right there on it which one was the little longer? IMO of course.
@ imo geometry is king. Which is why you have the cremators with steps. And others. But then there still is the fact no .720 is going to do what any .710 does. So yea it’s definitely not secondary. It’s almost same. Almost.
Thanks. I haven't found ported chokes to do any differently on average than non ported. If you had 2 ported chokes of the same size, one would still do better than the other. There is just that much variation from one to the next it seems.
My three boys and I have purchased four sets of cremators through the years . My oldest got the non ported for his franchi affinity 3 twelve gauge. I got the ported version for my franchi affinity 3.5 twelve gauge. They are very similar with close and medium, but there is a noticeable difference in the long-range performance with most shells. My middle son has the non ported on a stoeger m3020, and the youngest has ported on a tri-star cobra iii compact 20 gauge. The results are the same, close on close and medium, noticeable difference on long range. I can't speak for all of the chokes ever made, but in my personal experience, the non ported long range is noticeabley better.
Did you ever test Remington hyper sonic? Just curious how the pattern would be? (worse than all others?). And what would the penetration be in balistics gel would be? I am in the Muller camp but it would just be an interesting video. Keep up the good work!
They don't do constriction numbers. According to Muller, choke geometry relative to each barrell is a bigger indicator of pattern than choke constriction. So they boycot constriction as a measure of pattern density
Don’t worry about your testing process. Tedious is just part of the fun of learning. I did notice another fail to eject on that last shot. Have you ever tested ammo with this many malfunctions? It seems like the power is there….maybe the expanded crimps are too long and are getting caught on the rim of the ejection port?
George, save the people some money! Pattern test kents "upland steel" for waterfowl use. I buy it in #6 shot for around $12/box and for anything but late season birds it works incredibly well. Plenty of hits on target, and from last year it seems i killed more birds on average than running larger shot waterfowl loads. More hits on target=more vital systems damaged at once. Busted necks, wings, eyes, legs etc. I found i dont need tons of penetration on a few pellets when i can penetrate shallower with far more pellets. Try it out. Its pretty good stuff.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide I poo-poo'ed the idea but decided to pattern itn then shot a few teal with it. A mallard or ringneck would come into my decoys every so often and instead of swapping ammo I'd just see what happened. Out to 35 yards I have no other desire to use different ammo. It's more of an open handed slap vs a finger poke on a bird. It crumples a lot. Much like turkey hunting, adjust pattern to the most open size you can tolerate at the furthest ranges you're likely to encounter. In mn I hunt a lot of pretty close birds. 35 being about the furthest I shoot. I run an imp cyl or mod at the most and it performs exceptionally well on woodiesn teal, ringnecks, and even a few mallards I've had come by. Mostly we deal with the first three and less mallards. There's "common knowlege" among duck hunters that #6 is too small. Yes #6 is too small individually to cause immediate death, but if you can destroy most major systems on that bird with #6, and run a larger pattern, for me, that equals a successful hunt. The stuff is cheap and 1400pfs so plenty enough out to 35. Give I a whirl. I'm sure you'll be suprised by the results. I definitely was.
With the bigger shot like the 2# mixed with the 4# may vary on choke construction and plus at 1500 feet per second, That definitely would probably make your pattern not pretty and uniform
Huh? Two of the cheapest chokes shot on par with the most expensive chokes for about 30-40 dollars less. I do not like the big hole in the Muller Decoy pattern.
You gotta do Kent fast steel
1 3/8oz #4 1300 fps it’s incredible!!!!
Thank you so much! I will!
I do appreciate the time and effort you put into these vids. 👍
Thank you so much!
I bought a muller passing choke and paired it with winchester bizmuth, knocking them out the sky. I never heard even thought about buying a muller choke or bizmuth until I started watching your channel. Thank you
Glad to hear it working well for you! Thanks!
Dude watch the Cole townsend video #8 steel pellets on geese . Big ones it’s impressive shotz ammo 3”
1 3/8oz #8 shot
Thank you so much! I really appreciate it!
Did you note the amount of secondary shots in that video? I wasn't overly impressed. Not to mention, I'd prefer not to pick a bunch of #8 out of my meat.
@@Zelda980 What do you mean secondary shots and #8?
@TheNewHuntersGuide seemed like the geese were not going down as easy. Maybe just a camera perspective issue, but it looked like they sailed more birds. #8 shot is small, I'd rather pick out 6 to 8 pellets of #3 than have to pick out more #8 pellets. Maybe not an issue, without seeing in person I'm just going on what I know.
Well done George! Love your sense of humor, btw!
Thanks so much!
Picked up a case of 2&4 last week, perfect timing!
Nice!
I loaded my own shotshells...12ga. 2-3/4. 1-1/4 oz. #4 steel. 1250 fps. The results were amazing and they didn't have holes in the pattern, I use Müller chokes.
Each target was shot 3 times for averages. 30" circle.
Decoy @ 35 yards, 70.3% of pellets in circle, 168.6 pellets per shell in circle.
Passing @ 35 yards, 72.5% of pellets in circle, 174 pellets per shell in circle.
Decoy @ 45 yards, 53.8% of pellets in circle, 129.3 pellets per shell in circle.
Passing @ 45 yards, 66.3% of pellets in circle, 159 pellets per shell in circle.
Passing @ 60 yards, 47.6% of pellets in circle, 114.3 pellets per shell in circle.
What do you figure your effective range is at that velocity with #4s and what species do you target?
@@riverviewhunting9474 50 yards mallards, gadwall, pintail, etc.....
@riverviewhunting9474 they say in a 30" circle at any given range to consistently kill ducks you need 100 pellets for ducks and 70 for geese. If I was going to be shooting beyond 50-55 yards bismuth would be better
@@jacobfarley824 I would have guessed those 4s would have ran out of steam by 40. That's pretty neat.
@riverviewhunting9474 yeah the slower speed just helps with the fuller patterns. Their is a company called Shotz out of North Dakota I think.....they are loading a 3", 1-3/8oz, #8's, at 1500 fps. They are stoning snow geese at 50 yards with them.
I've just recently started watching your channel. One thing I'd like to see is the BOSS original bismuth 3" 3/5 through the Carlsons Cremator mid and long range chokes. I personally shoot a Franchi Affinity 3, so if you have the ability to run that combo, it would be even better for me, but I'd be happy just to see your take on the choke/load combo. Love seeing the charts and patterns and all the data really helps me make sense of everything.
I have 2 affinity 3's and use both cremator chokes. Both guns pattern different with the same choke. I'd recommend getting a few different sizes of boss and papering it. I was amazed and kinda disappointed in myself for not doing it sooner
So the cremator is actually a steel choke, it has less constriction. Its the equivalent of modified and improved modified for most guns. Those two would be great for short range hunting with the legacy load. Not meant to be a long range combo.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide that's why you are #1. Thank you.
@TheNewHuntersGuide How can it be equivalent to an improved or modified? The long range choke suggests 40 yards and beyond, and the midrange suggests 25-40 yards. I have also personally run steel loads through them and seen worse patterns. I'll have to test it out again and see what I find. What do you recommend for a choke for bismuth based on your findings? I typically don't shoot past 40 yards in most of my hunts.
@Zelda980 a choke tube designed for lead will be a smaller Dia. Than one designed for steel. You can't choke steel as tight as lead or bismuth
Had amazing luck with Kent fasteel 2.0. Hands down would recommend those shells. From snow all over them to getting wet, had 1 shell not fire out of appx 6 boxes.
I'm a big fan as well.
Not sure about your results, although I’ve had a lot more hits on birds using it as well. Great video btw!
@@nebraskaman8247 I've had some Fasteel 2.0 pattern better than the +. But generally speaking, its just a good performing load.
I liked the old school light gray Kent that made them a great ammo company, not sure about the 2.0 . Thanks George God bless you and go get them in the marsh.
Thanks so much Jeff!
Thank you for all the work you put in. I found doing similar test and patternmaster ansconda full and the momba out performed Carlson and Indian creek with most steel shot.
Thanks so much!
Let me add one more, Kick's High Flyer, through a Benelli SBE the Full and X-Full work amazing with BB and #2 Kent Fasteels 2.0. I wouldn't doubt they would work just as good with these new duplex loads.
Thanks!
I really enjoy watching all of your videos. The only thing I could ask is if sometime you could make a video of good cheaper ammo for turkey and waterfowl using a 20 gage if you have one
Thanks! Just recorded a 20 gauge video! Unfortunately good and cheap don't seem to be 2 words that go hand in hand with 20 gauge waterfowl ammo. But I tested multiple loads.
Thanks, George! I was disappointed with the Cremator LR performance. That's what I use and, constriction-wise, that should have been right between your modified and full.
More concerned with the jams and failures to eject. Are you seeing that with other ammo types as well?
I was seeing that problem with this shotgun, so I sent it back to Mossberg to be fixed and just got it back. So far so good. But I've already shot most of my videos for the year, so there will probably be more failures to eject on camera but the gun has already been fixed. Don't take any of these choke results as gospel, on your gun, or with ANY other ammo, that choke could be the best.
Thanks for the video!
Thanks for watching Ben!
Thanks for the info good video lots of information should help put more food on the table. Ironman in Alabama 73s.
Thanks for watching!
It's probably nit picking and asking too much, but id like to see 3 shells cut open and take an average once. Just to see if there's any major differences in pellet count in the stacked loads, I wouldn't think there'd be much difference in single size loads. Nonetheless you're doing the best tests on the interwebs I've seen!
Thanks so much!
Just an idea for future maybe you want to try. Get a caliper so you can just measure your tube ends. Muller doesn’t advertise the size cause they are all different based on barrel diameters. But I like to know. I don’t have any mullers for a 940 so it would be fun to find out what a 940 one measures.
It's not a bad idea but honestly I think it's a mute point. Constriction and pattern density are only loosely correlated. I have several chokes with the same Constriction that pattern differently. I wish it was the exact science it should be, but it's not.
@ yea I know barrel diameter, taper, choke taper, and geometry of. But fact is you know a muller decoy is .7xx (for your barrel) and it’s not going to do what a whatever “long range sky limit creamation extended etc” is going to. So actually they typically are all about the same in an overall kinda way. They may change density, or flyers, but are still a good starting point if you’ve got a bunch. Or not to each his own. If you’re doing a video about it though… maybe add the comment not the end all etc. but for the most part nothing.010-.015 different is going to do the same. So imo it’s just what I do. On my main 12. I mostly use a muller passing. But the decoy just isn’t as good as the 710 or 715 Carlson right at 30. So if I’m in a 50 yard slough 715 one. In a 50-70 710 one. Wide I mean in total so obviously decoys in middle and half that. Or sun comes up and I move to sun to back side. And it’s easier to remember when you don’t have to cause it’s just right there on it which one was the little longer? IMO of course.
@ imo geometry is king. Which is why you have the cremators with steps. And others. But then there still is the fact no .720 is going to do what any .710 does. So yea it’s definitely not secondary. It’s almost same. Almost.
Nice video. I have found that the non ported cremator works significantly better than the ported version.
Thanks. I haven't found ported chokes to do any differently on average than non ported. If you had 2 ported chokes of the same size, one would still do better than the other. There is just that much variation from one to the next it seems.
My three boys and I have purchased four sets of cremators through the years . My oldest got the non ported for his franchi affinity 3 twelve gauge. I got the ported version for my franchi affinity 3.5 twelve gauge. They are very similar with close and medium, but there is a noticeable difference in the long-range performance with most shells. My middle son has the non ported on a stoeger m3020, and the youngest has ported on a tri-star cobra iii compact 20 gauge. The results are the same, close on close and medium, noticeable difference on long range. I can't speak for all of the chokes ever made, but in my personal experience, the non ported long range is noticeabley better.
Did you ever test Remington hyper sonic? Just curious how the pattern would be? (worse than all others?). And what would the penetration be in balistics gel would be? I am in the Muller camp but it would just be an interesting video. Keep up the good work!
I have yet to get ahold of some. But I hope to!
@@TheNewHuntersGuide ok. If I come across some, I'll send it to you
@@mdblem2 Thanks!
Good job.
Thanks so much!
Thanks for your testings. Gotta ask again why no measurements on the Muller tubes?
They don't do constriction numbers. According to Muller, choke geometry relative to each barrell is a bigger indicator of pattern than choke constriction. So they boycot constriction as a measure of pattern density
Don’t worry about your testing process. Tedious is just part of the fun of learning. I did notice another fail to eject on that last shot. Have you ever tested ammo with this many malfunctions? It seems like the power is there….maybe the expanded crimps are too long and are getting caught on the rim of the ejection port?
I think my gun was dirty that day. I had alot of ejection issues on that recording day with numerous shells and brands.
George, save the people some money! Pattern test kents "upland steel" for waterfowl use. I buy it in #6 shot for around $12/box and for anything but late season birds it works incredibly well. Plenty of hits on target, and from last year it seems i killed more birds on average than running larger shot waterfowl loads. More hits on target=more vital systems damaged at once. Busted necks, wings, eyes, legs etc. I found i dont need tons of penetration on a few pellets when i can penetrate shallower with far more pellets. Try it out. Its pretty good stuff.
Wow, #6 really?
@@TheNewHuntersGuide I poo-poo'ed the idea but decided to pattern itn then shot a few teal with it. A mallard or ringneck would come into my decoys every so often and instead of swapping ammo I'd just see what happened. Out to 35 yards I have no other desire to use different ammo. It's more of an open handed slap vs a finger poke on a bird. It crumples a lot. Much like turkey hunting, adjust pattern to the most open size you can tolerate at the furthest ranges you're likely to encounter. In mn I hunt a lot of pretty close birds. 35 being about the furthest I shoot. I run an imp cyl or mod at the most and it performs exceptionally well on woodiesn teal, ringnecks, and even a few mallards I've had come by. Mostly we deal with the first three and less mallards. There's "common knowlege" among duck hunters that #6 is too small. Yes #6 is too small individually to cause immediate death, but if you can destroy most major systems on that bird with #6, and run a larger pattern, for me, that equals a successful hunt. The stuff is cheap and 1400pfs so plenty enough out to 35. Give I a whirl. I'm sure you'll be suprised by the results. I definitely was.
@@eduffy4937 Nice, I need to do some testing with smaller shot.
@@TheNewHuntersGuide that's an incredible value priced option. It performs really well too.
Have you done a boss legacy 2 3/4 inch vs the legacy 3in I’ve looked but can’t seem to find it
Not in a big focused test, no.
What velocity?
It's 1450
With the bigger shot like the 2# mixed with the 4# may vary on choke construction and plus at 1500 feet per second, That definitely would probably make your pattern not pretty and uniform
That may be the case. Video on that subject is coming.
Was expecting the x full to be tighter.
Me too!
Now that's a lot of counting
You said it man.
Carlsons Cremator mid range! Put that choke in your gun with loctite. And never look back. Seems to work well with everything. 😂😂
It's a nice one for sure.
Huh? Two of the cheapest chokes shot on par with the most expensive chokes for about 30-40 dollars less.
I do not like the big hole in the Muller Decoy pattern.
The development system has been horrible. Hopefully, the future will be better.
Development system?