That’s why I hope Cardinal Robert Sarah gets the papacy next as he wants the new mass to face the altar & have us kneel for communion as it was intended to be if not him than cardinal ranjith.
@Taxi Girl A quick response to this: The mass isn't about us, its about worshiping God. If you wish, you can obtain a missal which tells you the english during whichever part. The new mass just doesn't focus as much on God, as the Latin mass does
I am new to learning about the Catholic Church, and something that I love so much, and see continually, is that even though there is are many differences in opinion, the Church stays one Roman Catholic Church. Coming from a life of protestantism, this is so abnormal, and beautiful.
Wow. What a difference. Only recently joined the CC, so never experienced the old missal, but it has all the depth and beauty of a hotel room painting. Good call in updating it. Now let's do the same with the music.
I had only two years of Latin in Minor Seminary back in the early 80s. As an assignment back then I translated the Latin of the New Mass into English. I was flabbergasted how poorly the official version of the New Mass was translated. Much of it was not translated at all, but paraphrased into what the translators (if we can even call them that) thought 'should be' said instead. In doing so they inserted their own theology into the Mass rather than the theology that comes out with an accurate translation from Latin to English. Bishop Barron's examples in this video make this point clear. Fr. Lali., my Latin teacher, would have given these paraphrasers a D- or an F. Fr. Barron makes excuses in the video here that the 1960s translators were rushed into creating an English version. That is so not true. Every missal of the ancient Latin Mass in every pew of every Catholic Church I ever saw and used by the laity had a very good translation of the Latin into English. 'Et cum spiritu tuo' was translated ' And with your Spirit' in almost every version I used. It had to be a conscious decision on the translators part to change this phrase to the drab and theology excluding greeting, 'And also with you.' Their is sinful culpability upon those translators and the Bishops who approved their 'translations' of the Holy Mass. This official version I had to sit through for forty years was a dumbing down of the Holy Mass, especially by changing of the theology of the Mass via the use of paraphrases rather than an accurate translations. I am still appalled that Our Lord allowed these things to happen in His Church. I am, however, ever optimistic that the Lord will bring about great things from these human errors. One of those things is how much more respect I have for the absolute truths of the Holy Catholic faith, and the care needed to express these truths in words and deeds for our good and the good of His Holy Catholic Church. Another is that I have found and worship our Lord
F R Schatz agreed with your cynicism. I guess Fr Barron wanted to be more charitable and gave the “translators” the benefit of doubt; thereby providing a plausible explanation to the poor translation.
I'd also note that the "rushed translators" wasn't the only reason Bishop Barron gave for this kind of paraphrasing. He pointed the prejudice against stuffy, overly formal language as an incentive to bring about a more digestible ("false" as you put interpret it, in all fairness) translation back then. As the video continues, Fr. Barron respects the functionality in the blunter paraphrasing, while still favoring its more thorough, accurate incarnation. I dont see the problem with doing both.
It is amazing how all these errors are excused or glossed over instead of correcting them. It is so lax, do they think that anything goes, I just heard Bishop Baron say "It is almost, and that reads in my mind it is not the same. Nobody has the guts to stand up and almost is not the same. Bishop Baron what you are reading does not sound like the gospel, I am sure St Peter, St Dominic, and how many others would not respond because it is foreign
Excellent commentary on the more appropriate, theologically dense, and poetic liturgical language of the new translation, and the purpose behind it all. Thank you, Fr. Barron.
Dear Fr. Barron, To me, it's not really a new translation, but closer to the beautiful language I grew up with. I was born in 1948, so had a few decades of Vatican I before the New Mass. I always wonder how good, faithful priests your age became so well catechized, because you did not have the privilege of strong, solid, faithful teaching of Benedictine nuns of the '50's --- like folks my age had.
I am totally looking forward to the immense richness of these prayers. From what I have seen there are so many biblical references tucked away in a single word or phrase that just wasn't in the translation we've been using; it will be like a bible explosion to hear them, especially since we've had so much Scripture in the Liturgy for the past 40 years.
@montetoro Nonsense! And whom are you "spinning" for? Why are those who disagree with the Church always honest and courageous and those who agree with the church self-serving and hypocritical?!
@montetoro Speak for yourself! I think they're a lot more beautiful than their predecessors. "May this sacrament have an effect in our lives..." You think that's beautiful?
Arlene Paraiso True, but mainly because you can't understand any of it haha. I have nothing against the original Latin mass, but I do prefer the English of the post Vatican 2 mass because I can pray and understand what I'm asking of God/witnessing God do. I feel far more connected to the power of what's going on. More connected to real Holy Spirit, really.
Such beautiful translations from the original Latin. Very rich and poetic. “Look with favour, Lord God, on our petitions and in our trials grant us Your compassionate help, that consoled by the presence of Your Son, Whose coming we now await, we may be tainted no longer by the corruption of former ways…” “May Your Sacraments, O Lord, we pray, perfect in us what lies within them, that what we now celebrate in signs we may one day possess in truth…” Grant Your Faithful, we pray, Almighty God, the resolve to run forth to meet Your Christ with righteous deeds at His coming so that gathered at His right hand they may be worthy to possess the heavenly Kingdom…”
After being with the "new translation" for a while now, it is kind of "growing on me." I have to admit, one thing which helped me take the new translation is this video. When others say they don't like it or just "it's more poetic" didn't exactly help. To hear comparisons and a walk through on the language did help. Thanks Fr. Barron.
With the issuance of Summorum Pontificum in 2007, the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church needs to make the Tridentine, Extraordinary, form of the Mass universally available. The disciplines within the Tridentine form, such as facing ad orientem, do so much to focus the people to pray the liturgy and place God at the center of the mass. Moreover, given the disciplines within the Liturgy of St. John Chrysosotom in the Byzantine Rite, a universal renaissance of the Tridentine Mass helps heal
I am still finding this new (to me) mass alien. I served as an Altar Boy in England during the 80’s and 90’s under two Priests who were later sentenced for crimes against children (including Altar Boys). For years I did not attend Church as my faith in those I respected and loved had been broken - not just the Priests who did it but those in authority who put us at risk by sending them to us knowing what they had done before. A few years ago, like the Prodigal Son I returned to the Church but unlike the Prodigal Son things had changed at home. I found myself different from everyone else because I didn’t know the responses anymore. I didn't feel part of things anymore. What I knew in my heart, what tripped of the tongue, my interaction as part of the group - it all became out of step with everyone else. I felt like a foreigner. I felt like someone from a different denomination. I felt lonely. So I bought a missal to read along with but I found I was simply reciting words instead of meaning what I said. After several years of trying to bend and buy into this new mass I've stopped trying because it takes away the essence of the mass (for me), and I want my mass back - the mass of that innocent young boy - so I still say ‘And also with you’ and all the other spoken words I was born and raised to believe. The church was a constant in my life for so long and when I came back I realised it was no longer - my consolation is where the church changes God remains true...
As I understand it, a majority of saints and holy people had not only adequate, but deeper mystical understanding of the mysteries of the Most Blessed Sacrament, and benefitted from His graces far more than a lukewarm theologian. With humble simplicity, they did not posture to be trained in philosophical disciplines, and therefore never used high philosophical terms (many of which simply could not have heard an 11th century articulation). It is my hope, that should we ever be teaching future Saint Jeanne d'Arcs or Dominic Savios (as we most likely could be, depending on our love for both God and these young people), that instead of scoffing at their nescience, we may find an opportunity to teach the beautiful and deep (and numerous) doctrines with patience. God Bless us all.
I'm really looking forward to this! I think the new translation is so much more poetic. I believe (and hope) it will help flare our emotions and maybe deepen the realization in our hearts that we are truly connected to Christ very personally in the Mass, and that we come together in worship because He IS our king.
The theological density is STILL alive in the original LATIN (and the poetry). We should use that. It also allows a universality whether we attend mass in Rome, Italy or Rome, NY, USA. I miss that & STILL gravitate to a newly purchased 1962 version of the missal. The best of a language that imparts not only doctrine but reverence. Latin has that like no other! .
Since my first language is not English, I know how important it is to speak English eloquently. So, I appreciated a more eloquent translation of the Roman Missal in English.
I only meant to point out that calling it the "Latin Mass" doesn't make it the Tridentine Mass, so it's good to be specific, because some folks get the wrong impression. It isn't "now offered with Latin." Latin is the original language of Holy Mother Church, and always has been, so it's translated into English, not the other way around.
I think the new translation is very much needed. It is a slap in the face how far the novus ordo was "dumbed-down" (watered-down?) in the "spirit of Vatican II". We should be so lucky as to get a return to the Tridentine liturgy. But this is a nice step forward.
What still trips me up is changing the response from "And also with you" to "And in your spirit" (For some reason "in" is used instead of "with" at my church.). I can see looking at the words on the page what you mean about about it's tone being less than regal, in a literal sense, but the way it had always been spoken had conveyed both poetry and reverence. The new translation I can see as the literal translation, but it seems to trade the spirit of the translation for the letter of it.
"We're not reverting to the old Mass" Unfortunately ;) I kid, I kid. I appreciate both the Extraordinary Form and the Novus Ordo and regularly attend both. I'm glad the Novus Ordo is finally being "corrected". And I think attributing the previous translation of the Mass to simple haste, or a lack of time is giving the ICEL more credit than they deserve.
There is a balance between reaching people where we are at and calling people to stretch. It was thought at Vatican II there wasn't enough reaching people where we were at. Now, perhaps there is a sense that there can be a bit more calling people to stretch. We don't need to infantilize Catholics.
The whole point of Vatican II was to modernize the church for a modern world. I bet without Vatican II Fr. Barron would not be evangelizing via the internet. I think whether Catholics (or Christians in general) have to realize is that their faith has to and indeed does adapt to the times. It is important to know when and what traditions to let go.
@2000YearsOfTradition Allow me to clarify. She told me about the changes last night. She did 'editorialize' somewhat on not understanding why the wording was changing, or what was wrong with the old wording. My comment's intent was to infer that Fr. Baron's explanation was great!
Thank you, Father. My wife is a teacher in a Catholic school up here in Canada and she was telling me, literally last night, about the new Missal. She didn't understand why it was changing, only that it was. I'm going to tell her about this video and it should really clear things up, as it has for me. It's good that she is going to be teaching the new Missal to her students, but, I can see alot of confusion in the rest of the congregation -- it will be interesting how our parish handles this.
The biggest question I have about the new missal is why are there 10 different Eucharist prayers for the consecration of the Eucharist? In the Latin mass missal there is only one way to do it, the canon of the mass.
Thanks for this. I'm looking forward to the new text. It would also be good to remind and admonish our priests to, like a good Shakespearean actor, inhabit and express these texts in a way that helps communicate their meaning to the people. Let us see you enjoy this poetry, and we will enjoy it, too. I can't really love jazz music until I see a jazz musician love what he's playing. Let us see you loving this liturgy, these words, and we'll come to love it, too.
Latin is now and always has been the official language of Holy Mother Church. Everything must be first in Latin, and then translated into the local languages.
I think whatever the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal says in English is the same as whatever the original Roman Missal said (meaning what that missal said in English). I have a copy of the original, and when I at least once looked inside, I saw that the response to “The Lord be with you” was, “And with your spirit.” The Nicene Creed also includes “visible and invisible” instead of “seen and unseen” and “incarnate (instead of born) of the Virgin Mary.”
vatican 2 got a lot right, but I think they really butchered the poetic majesty of the original mass. Unfortunately, I think it may have been an attempt to make the mass more sterile to non-catholics, which is unfair to the faithful Catholics who are awed by the poetry of God and his Church.
@onosurf Better served, but not fully served. Go to the Latin Mass to be fully served. 39 years of Novus Ordo, then I finally went to The Latin Mass. Shocked and easily realized what martyrs died for.
Why did they move 'Mysterium Fidei' to after the Consecration? All 'Christians' can say, 'He has died, He has risen, He will come again'. It is the Catholic belief in the 'Mystery of Faith' that bread and wine are truly turned into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Many walked away when Christ said , 'Eat My Body, and Drink My Blood'. It was a hard saying. That is one of the many reasons that Luther left the Church and brought on the onslaught of religions founded on Man. If you say, 'I am a Christian' and believe that Christ is God, all-knowing past, present and future etc., and are not Catholic what you are really saying is God made a mistake in founding His Church on Peter.
Well said sir!!!! It is human pride that makes it hard to grasp. And Jesus tells us to have faith like children. I guess He was just making a suggestion ;-) I Believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Marty, I too asked this question of why they moved the words 'Mysterium Fidei' in the Mass. Not one priest or Bishop I asked gave a very good answer. Moving it, one can argue, changed the meaning of what the mystery of faith is. In the old Mass the mystery of faith is very clearly Jesus Christ himself as he changes bread and wine into his own Body and Blood still allowing it to be veiled by what looks and tastes like bread and wine, and, most importantly to us sinners that the shedding of This same blood, Jesus's Blood, will remit the sins of many. This is the mystery of faith as expressed in the ancient Mass as its ancient formula of words expresses. The new Mass used to say, "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith" until 2011 in the United States. We were given three options of which to proclaim. These options were nothing more than shortened creeds, two of which were biblical and one that was newly made up by the translating committee; "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again." Changing the position of the words Mysterium Fidei and adding "Let us proclaim" changed for, at least, myself, the meaning of the mystery. The ancient Mass emphasized that the mystery is Jesus and His mysterious and power-filled actions of changing the bread and wine into His Body and Blood which will remit the sins of many. The new Mass emphasized since 1969 (and is even now) not on the consecration of the bread and wine, but on us and our making a statement ABOUT the mystery of Faith. Because the words "Let us proclaim" were added for forty years I internally and with out realizing it began to believe that the mystery of faith is the faith I have in my head ABOUT Jesus. For me the mystery of faith was the general belief that Jesus died, rose and will come again; i.e. The creed I believe and profess. In 2011 my Father died and a new priest was assigned to our parish. He was a friend of mine and asked me to serve on Saturday mornings at the Latin Mass that he prayed in honor of the Blessed Virgin. I had a bit of Latin so I learned the Server parts quickly. I noticed again that the words Mysterium Fidei were immediately after the words of consecration in the Latin Mass. Also in 2011 the better translation of the new Mass took effect. Before this new and better translation took effect our priests would look directly at the people and say or sing, "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith." After 2011 our priest looked down at the altar and said or sang, "The mystery of faith." I asked our new priest why the difference. He responded by telling me he looked down because the mystery of faith is now on the altar who is Jesus Christ veiling by what looks and tastes like bread and wine. Something just clicked in my head. The mystery of faith is not something I believe about Jesus but IS Jesus really present in what looks like bread and wine. I always believed in the real presence of Jesus upon the altar. Now I knew it is he who is the mystery and every mystery within the holy faith rests in the personhood and power of Jesus. This same priest began saying the new prayer after the words The Mystery of Fath at Mass. "Save us, Savior of the world, for by your cross and resurrection you have set me free ." He never said anything different at any Mass he prayed. He explained that the new 'Saveme' prayer is a true prayer to Jesus upon the altar. It is a prayer expressing exactly what Jesus wishes to do as the Mystery of Faith. Father said he wished the church would have added the phrase "...free of sin," as well, at the end of the prayer. He said it would be the perfect response of a Christian to ask to be freed from his SINS, because just before this in the Mass the words of consecration quote Jesus, who is the Mystery of Faith, saying exactly what he wishes to do with his Body and Blood, "...this is the chalice of my blood, the blood of the new and eternal covenant, (the Mystery of Faith) which will be shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sin."
F R Schatz; Very interesting.Yes the New Mass the good; bad and the ugly. I had a question for you. With the mass being waterdowned do you think the eucharist could potentially become invalid at some point.I hate the thought of it. But in Matthew 25;15 15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand. Of course Daniel speaks about the daily sacrifice being taken away from the prince which of course is Christ.Continual sarifice is the eucharist. Daniel 12;11 11 And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.
@montetoro I'm finding much in the new translation that is beautiful and powerful. There might be spots that I would have done differently, but until we get to heaven, there is always going to be some of that. It helps to prepare the text and speak it boldly.
In all honesty, the new translation has been hard for me to get used to. I am sure it will grow on me as our faith is a living faith. I do feel that aspects of it are VERY authentic historically as in when the priest says "the Lord be with you," and we respond "And with your spirit," which I think is beautiful.
thank you very much for your explanation, Fr. In your opinion, what do you think of the Latin Mass and the comparison to this New Edition of the Roman Missal in the Vatican II's Liturgy? you gave me more insides of the new translation and helped me to understand more. Indeed that the new translation has the aura of reverence that is much needed among us these days. have a blessed Advent!
The change in the preface also felt like it lost something, where it is changed from "It is right to give Him thanks and praise" to "It is right and just". The old phrasing seems much more glorifying, and I'm not seeing it in the revision. Translations have to capture first and foremost the spirit of the original.
Let it be done on to me. According to thy will. Pretty sure it wasn't spoken in Latin. Words have only the power that the speaker gives them. They can only effect things as much as the listener, choose to respond. To clearly understand the liturgy , the prayers, and the worship. Is all I ask. It's up to me to give right praise. 🙏♥️👍😊
I really wish I could go on these videos and find people civilly discussing the content rather than trolls with an agenda trying to start fights over things that have nothing to do with this. Please, people. Do NOT respond to the trolls. It just derails the real discussion. For my part, I feel okay with this change. It's funny to think the translation I've had all 34 years of my life was meant to be temporary. Then again, 40 years is a very short time in this church. Things do take a while.
@waspswatter As I mentioned earlier, I think the context precludes a passive understanding of the the blood being poured out for "the many" since the way it's phrased describes it as God's intention. Even if we were to concede that, we arrive at an Arminian conception of salvation in which grace is withheld from those whom God's foresight deems will not accept it. It's hardly better and calls the reception of grace through any of the sacraments into question.
@deemax90 I didn't hear Father Barron say that a return to Vatican 2 would be a bad thing, per se. I heard him say that this is not a return to Vatican 2. Just because it isn't a return doesn't mean he's making a value judgement on Vatican 2.
The Latin Mass is the same as the Novus Ordo, except in Latin. I think you might be referring to the Tridentine Mass --- which was the only Mass in existence back in the Vatican I era.
@wordonfirevideo First of all, it should be clear that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God and to God alone, while the sacraments are primarily instituted for humanity, for the sanctification of souls. Therefore, quite logically, the celebrant [the priest] is turned TOWARDS GOD, the Incarnate and Crucified God. AS SHEPHERD, he [the priest] stands with the flock facing ONE DIRECTION [TOWARD TO THE TABERNACLE]. Both the priest and faithfuls TRADITIONALLY face the heavenly kingdom.
What a shame that Father Barron chose not to comment on one of the more contentious replacements in the new translation. Where once we said that Christ's blood was shed for "all," we now say Christ's blood was shed for "many." This appears, on its face, to directly contradict what the Church has always taught about the universal nature of Christ's sacrifice. If, in response to some of the more strident voices promoting this new translation, a person goes to a dictionary to understand the langua
1.)i'm a lay person who generally likes it. 2.) the title is a bit of a misnomer, in my opinion. its not so much a 'new' translation, as a 'better' translation.
@steakman1989 I see your point here, but it seems to me that this translation, by keeping closer to the Latin, actually does come closer to replicating the Latin nuances.
@deemax90 It didn't seem that way to me, but I hear you saying that's how you took it. It always is interesting to me that two people can listen to the same video/presentation and come away with two different interpretations/impressions of the same material....
Ah yes, I keep forgetting the protestant mass is now offered with Latin. You can also find it in an area near you with clowns, halloween garb, laser shows, banjos & bongos, are something else that will evoke the "spirit of vatican II".
The "Bishops' Committee for the Use of English in the Liturgy" (I think I'm remembering properly) published a newsletter (to which I subscribed) as it proceeded after VCII. Catholics fluent in Latin used to compare the Committee's handiwork to the texts being "translated" and could, even back then, smell a rat. I listened to the beginning of this talk and heard nothing about inaccuracy and nothing, either, on the apparent attempt of the Committee, at times, to soft pedal Church teaching.
@wordonfirevideo If there's one thing Father Barron knows and understands it's the importance of beauty. And he knows these translations are not beautiful. We all do.
@iGregory67 No worriez. Yes Father Barron's explanation is great! Just a little puzzling how a teacher at a Catholic school, this close to Advent, could still "be in the dark" or not understand why these changes are being made to the 3rd Edition ????
What would adhere most closely to the Latin of the Mass? The Latin Mass would be closest to the Latin of the Mass. The people have had more than 50 years of the Novus Ordo Mass, and they left the Church.
@avyanez I think the bishops accomplished what they set out to accomplish. The NO Mass and all of the subsequent lack of catechesis as well as the horrible homiletics and substandard pop music also made it a rousing success.
@irksome1 It is my understanding that this translation (which now matches the original Latin) represents the fact that while Christ's sacrifice is indeed universal, not all will accept salvation. This sacrifice, "for the forgiveness of sins" cannot take place where there is no repentance.
@thecommentmonster This doesn't really respond to what I said though. Why does it have to conform to the Latin when Latin is no longer used as the vernacular. Just because something is closer in translation to the Latin does not mean that it will be more theologically sound. Why not instead start from scratch to build the best liturgy in the vernacular of the region it is in?
Vernacular is the tongue of the people, the latin is still the language of the church and is what all theological beliefs of the church are written in. The church does not change
@MobiusCoin I think that, while there may be some small criticisms to be made, you haven't made them. Yes, English is an evolving language that will adapt to new situations, but unfortunately, that's meant in modern English that we've lost a sense of the sacred. I think that the florid prose of the new translation attempts to restore that.
@avyanez In a previous installment Father Barron bemoans the dumbing down of Catholicism but he fails to point out that the NO Mass was a dumbing down of the Mass.
@deemax90 Surely, the extraordinary form of the Mass (for which His Holiness has already grated a universal indult) is no bad thing in itself. Still, the Council Fathers saw fit to institute certain liturgical reforms, and the Church has not gone back on that commitment.
When I first immigrated from Hong Kong to Toronto, I found the English translation quite offending and “hated” it. I kept going to Chinese vernacular mass instead, as the translation retained the essence from Latin. I guess it is a cultural thing back then as we Chinese traditionally are more reverent to higher power. At any rate, I love the new translation now. Not only is it more poetic and courtly, but it also replaces the “commanding” tone with piety.
@singingsisters Thank you, Sister Flanagan. I found your presentation on this point refreshing, since so much commentary on this has been glib. I do quibble with a couple of your arguments, noting that "many," as used in English, always implies something less than "all." If "all" is the definitional equivalent of "many," why did the Church not use the former term, unless she wanted to make a distinction? Also, in context, the verb "poured," is active, making a receptive sense of "many" unlikely.
@StormTrek and you know this because He told you? If so, what are you doing writing on the internet instead of spreading the new gospel according to StormTrek?
@deemax90 Lolz. Sitting infront of our PCs inside our homes doesn't make us the Doctor of the Church. We should limit our Advises to Ourselves and Let the Doctors of The Church under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit sanctify the Church.
lol you know what I find fascinating about all this. English is a living evolving language, it adapts to new ideas and it is represented in the language. Latin is a dead language of strict rules and temporal syntax. What this translation is doing is re-Latinizing what was un-Latinized by Vatican II. Way to two step forwards one step back guys lol.
The liturgist Klaus Gamber has convincingly explained that the celebration versus populum [towards the people] never existed in The Church. This is the "protestant" invention of a theology that is fast becoming anthropology. The new orientation of the liturgical celebration is a "man-centered program" of new direction for the Church contained within and according to the Second Vatican Council. In the new rite "the priest" is facing towards people and turning his back on the Blessed Sacrament.
Fr. Barron, I find the assertion that the closer to the original Latin, the better it is, is problematic. This is not just with the Roman Liturgy, but also with much of Western Christianity. The idea that we must be as close to the original Latin, Greek, or Hebrew is not wise. Many nuances are lost in translation that can never be replicated. Deriving authority from translational strength will always leave you in the position of there always a more "theologically sound" translation.
I'm feel so fortunate to be able to attend Latin mass :)
Amen. Same.
Nothing sounds more poetic and reverent than the original Latin, the language of the Church.
Only the language of the Western Church.The Eastern Catholics always used various languages like Aramaic,Koine Greek,Ge'ez.etc...
Bring back the "old Mass" (Latin Rite Liturgy used prior to Vatican ll) where the Priest faces the Altar and Church pews will fill back up!
That’s why I hope Cardinal Robert Sarah gets the papacy next as he wants the new mass to face the altar & have us kneel for communion as it was intended to be if not him than cardinal ranjith.
@Taxi Girl A quick response to this:
The mass isn't about us, its about worshiping God. If you wish, you can obtain a missal which tells you the english during whichever part. The new mass just doesn't focus as much on God, as the Latin mass does
I am new to learning about the Catholic Church, and something that I love so much, and see continually, is that even though there is are many differences in opinion, the Church stays one Roman Catholic Church. Coming from a life of protestantism, this is so abnormal, and beautiful.
You do know churches began to be empty years before the promulgation of the Novus Ordo, right ?
The priest faces the altar in both forms of the mass. Look closer.
Your awesome Bishop Barron! God bless you!
Wow. What a difference. Only recently joined the CC, so never experienced the old missal, but it has all the depth and beauty of a hotel room painting. Good call in updating it. Now let's do the same with the music.
I had only two years of Latin in Minor Seminary back in the early 80s. As an assignment back then I translated the Latin of the New Mass into English. I was flabbergasted how poorly the official version of the New Mass was translated. Much of it was not translated at all, but paraphrased into what the translators (if we can even call them that) thought 'should be' said instead. In doing so they inserted their own theology into the Mass rather than the theology that comes out with an accurate translation from Latin to English. Bishop Barron's examples in this video make this point clear. Fr. Lali., my Latin teacher, would have given these paraphrasers a D- or an F.
Fr. Barron makes excuses in the video here that the 1960s translators were rushed into creating an English version. That is so not true. Every missal of the ancient Latin Mass in every pew of every Catholic Church I ever saw and used by the laity had a very good translation of the Latin into English. 'Et cum spiritu tuo' was translated ' And with your Spirit' in almost every version I used. It had to be a conscious decision on the translators part to change this phrase to the drab and theology excluding greeting, 'And also with you.' Their is sinful culpability upon those translators and the Bishops who approved their 'translations' of the Holy Mass. This official version I had to sit through for forty years was a dumbing down of the Holy Mass, especially by changing of the theology of the Mass via the use of paraphrases rather than an accurate translations. I am still appalled that Our Lord allowed these things to happen in His Church. I am, however, ever optimistic that the Lord will bring about great things from these human errors. One of those things is how much more respect I have for the absolute truths of the Holy Catholic faith, and the care needed to express these truths in words and deeds for our good and the good of His Holy Catholic Church. Another is that I have found and worship our Lord
F R Schatz agreed with your cynicism. I guess Fr Barron wanted to be more charitable and gave the “translators” the benefit of doubt; thereby providing a plausible explanation to the poor translation.
I'd also note that the "rushed translators" wasn't the only reason Bishop Barron gave for this kind of paraphrasing. He pointed the prejudice against stuffy, overly formal language as an incentive to bring about a more digestible ("false" as you put interpret it, in all fairness) translation back then. As the video continues, Fr. Barron respects the functionality in the blunter paraphrasing, while still favoring its more thorough, accurate incarnation. I dont see the problem with doing both.
It is amazing how all these errors are excused or glossed over instead of correcting them. It is so lax, do they think that anything goes, I just heard Bishop Baron say "It is almost, and that reads in my mind it is not the same. Nobody has the guts to stand up and almost is not the same. Bishop Baron what you are reading does not sound like the gospel, I am sure St Peter, St Dominic, and how many others would not respond because it is foreign
@1spoon1fork But we're not praying to "the people." We're praying together to God.
Thank you for explaining "and with your spirit" part of the greeting. I found it interesting when I started to go to Mass.
Excellent commentary on the more appropriate, theologically dense, and poetic liturgical language of the new translation, and the purpose behind it all. Thank you, Fr. Barron.
People, as a traditionalist myself, I just want to say that this new translation is a heck of alot better than the previous one.
Poetic language is so beautiful. I am so excited..thank you Father
Dear Fr. Barron, To me, it's not really a new translation, but closer to the beautiful language I grew up with. I was born in 1948, so had a few decades of Vatican I before the New Mass.
I always wonder how good, faithful priests your age became so well catechized, because you did not have the privilege of strong, solid, faithful teaching of Benedictine nuns of the '50's --- like folks my age had.
I am totally looking forward to the immense richness of these prayers. From what I have seen there are so many biblical references tucked away in a single word or phrase that just wasn't in the translation we've been using; it will be like a bible explosion to hear them, especially since we've had so much Scripture in the Liturgy for the past 40 years.
@montetoro Nonsense! And whom are you "spinning" for? Why are those who disagree with the Church always honest and courageous and those who agree with the church self-serving and hypocritical?!
@montetoro Speak for yourself! I think they're a lot more beautiful than their predecessors. "May this sacrament have an effect in our lives..." You think that's beautiful?
If you solely go to the TRIDENTINE Latin Mass, you won't need to be confused by random misinterpretations by going to vernacular masses.
Arlene Paraiso True, but mainly because you can't understand any of it haha. I have nothing against the original Latin mass, but I do prefer the English of the post Vatican 2 mass because I can pray and understand what I'm asking of God/witnessing God do. I feel far more connected to the power of what's going on. More connected to real Holy Spirit, really.
sstroh08 it is not difficult to learn the Latin prayers.
When we were little, we learned the Latin; no big deal!
Such beautiful translations from the original Latin. Very rich and poetic.
“Look with favour, Lord God, on our petitions and in our trials grant us Your compassionate help, that consoled by the presence of Your Son, Whose coming we now await, we may be tainted no longer by the corruption of former ways…”
“May Your Sacraments, O Lord, we pray, perfect in us what lies within them, that what we now celebrate in signs we may one day possess in truth…”
Grant Your Faithful, we pray, Almighty God, the resolve to run forth to meet Your Christ with righteous deeds at His coming so that gathered at His right hand they may be worthy to possess the heavenly Kingdom…”
I'm excited for Advent to start--I can't wait to use the new translation! It feels like I've been waiting forever for November 27 to finally get here!
After being with the "new translation" for a while now, it is kind of "growing on me."
I have to admit, one thing which helped me take the new translation is this video. When others say they don't like it or just "it's more poetic" didn't exactly help. To hear comparisons and a walk through on the language did help. Thanks Fr. Barron.
With the issuance of Summorum Pontificum in 2007, the Latin Rite of the Catholic Church needs to make the Tridentine, Extraordinary, form of the Mass universally available. The disciplines within the Tridentine form, such as facing ad orientem, do so much to focus the people to pray the liturgy and place God at the center of the mass. Moreover, given the disciplines within the Liturgy of St. John Chrysosotom in the Byzantine Rite, a universal renaissance of the Tridentine Mass helps heal
I am still finding this new (to me) mass alien. I served as an Altar Boy in England during the 80’s and 90’s under two Priests who were later sentenced for crimes against children (including Altar Boys). For years I did not attend Church as my faith in those I respected and loved had been broken - not just the Priests who did it but those in authority who put us at risk by sending them to us knowing what they had done before. A few years ago, like the Prodigal Son I returned to the Church but unlike the Prodigal Son things had changed at home. I found myself different from everyone else because I didn’t know the responses anymore. I didn't feel part of things anymore. What I knew in my heart, what tripped of the tongue, my interaction as part of the group - it all became out of step with everyone else. I felt like a foreigner. I felt like someone from a different denomination. I felt lonely. So I bought a missal to read along with but I found I was simply reciting words instead of meaning what I said. After several years of trying to bend and buy into this new mass I've stopped trying because it takes away the essence of the mass (for me), and I want my mass back - the mass of that innocent young boy - so I still say ‘And also with you’ and all the other spoken words I was born and raised to believe. The church was a constant in my life for so long and when I came back I realised it was no longer - my consolation is where the church changes God remains true...
God bless you, Father Barron! A genuinely constructive contribution! Thank you!
Yes, so sad. Some young folks who claim to be Catholic have never even heard of **Transubstantiation**.
As I understand it, a majority of saints and holy people had not only adequate, but deeper mystical understanding of the mysteries of the Most Blessed Sacrament, and benefitted from His graces far more than a lukewarm theologian. With humble simplicity, they did not posture to be trained in philosophical disciplines, and therefore never used high philosophical terms (many of which simply could not have heard an 11th century articulation).
It is my hope, that should we ever be teaching future Saint Jeanne d'Arcs or Dominic Savios (as we most likely could be, depending on our love for both God and these young people), that instead of scoffing at their nescience, we may find an opportunity to teach the beautiful and deep (and numerous) doctrines with patience.
God Bless us all.
I'm really looking forward to this! I think the new translation is so much more poetic. I believe (and hope) it will help flare our emotions and maybe deepen the realization in our hearts that we are truly connected to Christ very personally in the Mass, and that we come together in worship because He IS our king.
The theological density is STILL alive in the original LATIN (and the poetry). We should use that. It also allows a universality whether we attend mass in Rome, Italy or Rome, NY, USA. I miss that & STILL gravitate to a newly purchased 1962 version of the missal. The best of a language that imparts not only doctrine but reverence. Latin has that like no other! .
Since my first language is not English, I know how important it is to speak English eloquently. So, I appreciated a more eloquent translation of the Roman Missal in English.
I only meant to point out that calling it the "Latin Mass" doesn't make it the Tridentine Mass, so it's good to be specific, because some folks get the wrong impression.
It isn't "now offered with Latin." Latin is the original language of Holy Mother Church, and always has been, so it's translated into English, not the other way around.
The original language was Greek it took two centuries to become Latin even in Rome
I think the new translation is very much needed. It is a slap in the face how far the novus ordo was "dumbed-down" (watered-down?) in the "spirit of Vatican II". We should be so lucky as to get a return to the Tridentine liturgy. But this is a nice step forward.
Bring on the New Missal,
This Is Exactly What The Norvus Ordo Mass Needed!
What still trips me up is changing the response from "And also with you" to "And in your spirit" (For some reason "in" is used instead of "with" at my church.). I can see looking at the words on the page what you mean about about it's tone being less than regal, in a literal sense, but the way it had always been spoken had conveyed both poetry and reverence. The new translation I can see as the literal translation, but it seems to trade the spirit of the translation for the letter of it.
"We're not reverting to the old Mass"
Unfortunately ;)
I kid, I kid. I appreciate both the Extraordinary Form and the Novus Ordo and regularly attend both. I'm glad the Novus Ordo is finally being "corrected".
And I think attributing the previous translation of the Mass to simple haste, or a lack of time is giving the ICEL more credit than they deserve.
There is a balance between reaching people where we are at and calling people to stretch. It was thought at Vatican II there wasn't enough reaching people where we were at. Now, perhaps there is a sense that there can be a bit more calling people to stretch. We don't need to infantilize Catholics.
The whole point of Vatican II was to modernize the church for a modern world. I bet without Vatican II Fr. Barron would not be evangelizing via the internet. I think whether Catholics (or Christians in general) have to realize is that their faith has to and indeed does adapt to the times. It is important to know when and what traditions to let go.
@2000YearsOfTradition
Allow me to clarify. She told me about the changes last night. She did 'editorialize' somewhat on not understanding why the wording was changing, or what was wrong with the old wording. My comment's intent was to infer that Fr. Baron's explanation was great!
Thank you, Father.
My wife is a teacher in a Catholic school up here in Canada and she was telling me, literally last night, about the new Missal. She didn't understand why it was changing, only that it was. I'm going to tell her about this video and it should really clear things up, as it has for me.
It's good that she is going to be teaching the new Missal to her students, but, I can see alot of confusion in the rest of the congregation -- it will be interesting how our parish handles this.
The biggest question I have about the new missal is why are there 10 different Eucharist prayers for the consecration of the Eucharist? In the Latin mass missal there is only one way to do it, the canon of the mass.
Thanks for this. I'm looking forward to the new text.
It would also be good to remind and admonish our priests to, like a good Shakespearean actor, inhabit and express these texts in a way that helps communicate their meaning to the people. Let us see you enjoy this poetry, and we will enjoy it, too. I can't really love jazz music until I see a jazz musician love what he's playing. Let us see you loving this liturgy, these words, and we'll come to love it, too.
Latin is now and always has been the official language of Holy Mother Church. Everything must be first in Latin, and then translated into the local languages.
True. I hope that will be done in the 🇵🇭, particularly in the "And with your spirit part".
I think whatever the 3rd edition of the Roman Missal says in English is the same as whatever the original Roman Missal said (meaning what that missal said in English). I have a copy of the original, and when I at least once looked inside, I saw that the response to “The Lord be with you” was, “And with your spirit.” The Nicene Creed also includes “visible and invisible” instead of “seen and unseen” and “incarnate (instead of born) of the Virgin Mary.”
Sa 🇵🇭 nga, ang salin ng "Et cum spiritu tuo" (na tugon sa "Dominus vobiscum" (Sumainyo ang Panginoon)) ay "At sumaiyo rin".
Through the instruction of Benedict XVI, the New Mass even to this day grows closer and closer to the true spirit of the Council.
vatican 2 got a lot right, but I think they really butchered the poetic majesty of the original mass. Unfortunately, I think it may have been an attempt to make the mass more sterile to non-catholics, which is unfair to the faithful Catholics who are awed by the poetry of God and his Church.
Blake Denenny I don’t know much about V2. Why was it necessary and what did they get right? I do agree with your statement about the liturgy.
Just return to the 1962 true mass before it was violated by V2.
Nastalgia and exitement. I cant wait!!
have you tried the RSV catholic edition (ignatius bible). it tends to be quite good about leaving out modern political trends.
@onosurf Better served, but not fully served. Go to the Latin Mass to be fully served. 39 years of Novus Ordo, then I finally went to The Latin Mass. Shocked and easily realized what martyrs died for.
Why did they move 'Mysterium Fidei' to after the Consecration? All 'Christians' can say, 'He has died, He has risen, He will come again'. It is the Catholic belief in the 'Mystery of Faith' that bread and wine are truly turned into the Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity of Jesus Christ. Many walked away when Christ said , 'Eat My Body, and Drink My Blood'. It was a hard saying. That is one of the many reasons that Luther left the Church and brought on the onslaught of religions founded on Man. If you say, 'I am a Christian' and believe that Christ is God, all-knowing past, present and future etc., and are not Catholic what you are really saying is God made a mistake in founding His Church on Peter.
Well said sir!!!! It is human pride that makes it hard to grasp. And Jesus tells us to have faith like children. I guess He was just making a suggestion ;-) I Believe in One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.
Marty, I too asked this question of why they moved the words 'Mysterium Fidei' in the Mass. Not one priest or Bishop I asked gave a very good answer. Moving it, one can argue, changed the meaning of what the mystery of faith is. In the old Mass the mystery of faith is very clearly Jesus Christ himself as he changes bread and wine into his own Body and Blood still allowing it to be veiled by what looks and tastes like bread and wine, and, most importantly to us sinners that the shedding of This same blood, Jesus's Blood, will remit the sins of many. This is the mystery of faith as expressed in the ancient Mass as its ancient formula of words expresses.
The new Mass used to say, "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith" until 2011 in the United States. We were given three options of which to proclaim. These options were nothing more than shortened creeds, two of which were biblical and one that was newly made up by the translating committee; "Christ has died. Christ is risen. Christ will come again."
Changing the position of the words Mysterium Fidei and adding "Let us proclaim" changed for, at least, myself, the meaning of the mystery. The ancient Mass emphasized that the mystery is Jesus and His mysterious and power-filled actions of changing the bread and wine into His Body and Blood which will remit the sins of many.
The new Mass emphasized since 1969 (and is even now) not on the consecration of the bread and wine, but on us and our making a statement ABOUT the mystery of Faith. Because the words "Let us proclaim" were added for forty years I internally and with out realizing it began to believe that the mystery of faith is the faith I have in my head ABOUT Jesus. For me the mystery of faith was the general belief that Jesus died, rose and will come again; i.e. The creed I believe and profess.
In 2011 my Father died and a new priest was assigned to our parish. He was a friend of mine and asked me to serve on Saturday mornings at the Latin Mass that he prayed in honor of the Blessed Virgin. I had a bit of Latin so I learned the Server parts quickly. I noticed again that the words Mysterium Fidei were immediately after the words of consecration in the Latin Mass.
Also in 2011 the better translation of the new Mass took effect. Before this new and better translation took effect our priests would look directly at the people and say or sing, "Let us proclaim the mystery of faith." After 2011 our priest looked down at the altar and said or sang, "The mystery of faith." I asked our new priest why the difference. He responded by telling me he looked down because the mystery of faith is now on the altar who is Jesus Christ veiling by what looks and tastes like bread and wine. Something just clicked in my head. The mystery of faith is not something I believe about Jesus but IS Jesus really present in what looks like bread and wine. I always believed in the real presence of Jesus upon the altar. Now I knew it is he who is the mystery and every mystery within the holy faith rests in the personhood and power of Jesus.
This same priest began saying the new prayer after the words The Mystery of Fath at Mass. "Save us, Savior of the world, for by your cross and resurrection you have set me free ." He never said anything different at any Mass he prayed. He explained that the new 'Saveme' prayer is a true prayer to Jesus upon the altar. It is a prayer expressing exactly what Jesus wishes to do as the Mystery of Faith.
Father said he wished the church would have added the phrase "...free of sin," as well, at the end of the prayer. He said it would be the perfect response of a Christian to ask to be freed from his SINS, because just before this in the Mass the words of consecration quote Jesus, who is the Mystery of Faith, saying exactly what he wishes to do with his Body and Blood, "...this is the chalice of my blood, the blood of the new and eternal covenant, (the Mystery of Faith) which will be shed for you and for many for the forgiveness of sin."
F R Schatz;
Very interesting.Yes the New Mass the good; bad and the ugly.
I had a question for you.
With the mass being waterdowned do you think the eucharist could potentially become invalid at some point.I hate the thought of it.
But in Matthew 25;15
15 When therefore you shall see the abomination of desolation, which was spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place: he that readeth let him understand.
Of course Daniel speaks about the daily sacrifice being taken away from the prince which of course is Christ.Continual sarifice is the eucharist.
Daniel 12;11
11 And from the time when the continual sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination unto desolation shall be set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred ninety days.
@montetoro I'm finding much in the new translation that is beautiful and powerful. There might be spots that I would have done differently, but until we get to heaven, there is always going to be some of that. It helps to prepare the text and speak it boldly.
In all honesty, the new translation has been hard for me to get used to. I am sure it will grow on me as our faith is a living faith. I do feel that aspects of it are VERY authentic historically as in when the priest says "the Lord be with you," and we respond "And with your spirit," which I think is beautiful.
Fr Lasance & Angelus Press missal FTW!
thank you very much for your explanation, Fr. In your opinion, what do you think of the Latin Mass and the comparison to this New Edition of the Roman Missal in the Vatican II's Liturgy? you gave me more insides of the new translation and helped me to understand more. Indeed that the new translation has the aura of reverence that is much needed among us these days. have a blessed Advent!
The change in the preface also felt like it lost something, where it is changed from "It is right to give Him thanks and praise" to "It is right and just". The old phrasing seems much more glorifying, and I'm not seeing it in the revision. Translations have to capture first and foremost the spirit of the original.
Let it be done on to me. According to thy will. Pretty sure it wasn't spoken in Latin. Words have only the power that the speaker gives them. They can only effect things as much as the listener, choose to respond. To clearly understand the liturgy , the prayers, and the worship. Is all I ask. It's up to me to give right praise. 🙏♥️👍😊
"Dignum et justum est" is correctly translated as "It is right and just".
Yes, I've wondered about that, too.
I really wish I could go on these videos and find people civilly discussing the content rather than trolls with an agenda trying to start fights over things that have nothing to do with this. Please, people. Do NOT respond to the trolls. It just derails the real discussion.
For my part, I feel okay with this change. It's funny to think the translation I've had all 34 years of my life was meant to be temporary. Then again, 40 years is a very short time in this church. Things do take a while.
Life is short. Pray hard.
@waspswatter As I mentioned earlier, I think the context precludes a passive understanding of the the blood being poured out for "the many" since the way it's phrased describes it as God's intention. Even if we were to concede that, we arrive at an Arminian conception of salvation in which grace is withheld from those whom God's foresight deems will not accept it. It's hardly better and calls the reception of grace through any of the sacraments into question.
@MrHaydenSmith It doesn't. But it's a cool word, no?
@deemax90 I didn't hear Father Barron say that a return to Vatican 2 would be a bad thing, per se. I heard him say that this is not a return to Vatican 2. Just because it isn't a return doesn't mean he's making a value judgement on Vatican 2.
Superb Video
@zztstenglish Me either, I wish the mass was still the Tridentine Mass.
The Latin Mass is the same as the Novus Ordo, except in Latin. I think you might be referring to the Tridentine Mass --- which was the only Mass in existence back in the Vatican I era.
Wrong.
@wordonfirevideo
First of all, it should be clear that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is offered to God and to God alone, while the sacraments are primarily instituted for humanity, for the sanctification of souls.
Therefore, quite logically, the celebrant [the priest] is turned TOWARDS GOD, the Incarnate and Crucified God.
AS SHEPHERD, he [the priest] stands with the flock facing ONE DIRECTION [TOWARD TO THE TABERNACLE].
Both the priest and faithfuls TRADITIONALLY face the heavenly kingdom.
you give good information.
What a shame that Father Barron chose not to comment on one of the more contentious replacements in the new translation. Where once we said that Christ's blood was shed for "all," we now say Christ's blood was shed for "many." This appears, on its face, to directly contradict what the Church has always taught about the universal nature of Christ's sacrifice. If, in response to some of the more strident voices promoting this new translation, a person goes to a dictionary to understand the langua
1.)i'm a lay person who generally likes it.
2.) the title is a bit of a misnomer, in my opinion. its not so much a 'new' translation, as a 'better' translation.
@steakman1989 I see your point here, but it seems to me that this translation, by keeping closer to the Latin, actually does come closer to replicating the Latin nuances.
@deemax90
It didn't seem that way to me, but I hear you saying that's how you took it. It always is interesting to me that two people can listen to the same video/presentation and come away with two different interpretations/impressions of the same material....
Ah yes, I keep forgetting the protestant mass is now offered with Latin. You can also find it in an area near you with clowns, halloween garb, laser shows, banjos & bongos, are something else that will evoke the "spirit of vatican II".
@bayreuth79 We certainly need more teaching of the message. What are you doing to help?
The "Bishops' Committee for the Use of English in the Liturgy" (I think I'm remembering properly) published a newsletter (to which I subscribed) as it proceeded after VCII.
Catholics fluent in Latin used to compare the Committee's handiwork to the texts being "translated" and could, even back then, smell a rat. I listened to the beginning of this talk and heard nothing about inaccuracy and nothing, either, on the apparent attempt of the Committee, at times, to soft pedal Church teaching.
@wordonfirevideo If there's one thing Father Barron knows and understands it's the importance of beauty. And he knows these translations are not beautiful. We all do.
@1spoon1fork Just the opposite. The involvement be the people is exponentially greater, not passive at all. You should attend a Latin Mass.
@iGregory67
No worriez.
Yes Father Barron's explanation is great!
Just a little puzzling how a teacher at a Catholic school, this close to Advent, could still "be in the dark" or not understand why these changes are being made to the 3rd Edition ????
What would adhere most closely to the Latin of the Mass? The Latin Mass would be closest to the Latin of the Mass.
The people have had more than 50 years of the Novus Ordo Mass, and they left the Church.
@avyanez I think the bishops accomplished what they set out to accomplish. The NO Mass and all of the subsequent lack of catechesis as well as the horrible homiletics and substandard pop music also made it a rousing success.
@irksome1 It is my understanding that this translation (which now matches the original Latin) represents the fact that while Christ's sacrifice is indeed universal, not all will accept salvation. This sacrifice, "for the forgiveness of sins" cannot take place where there is no repentance.
Please bring back the Latin Mass.
Et cum spiritu tuo.
Latin Mass, please.
@thecommentmonster This doesn't really respond to what I said though. Why does it have to conform to the Latin when Latin is no longer used as the vernacular. Just because something is closer in translation to the Latin does not mean that it will be more theologically sound. Why not instead start from scratch to build the best liturgy in the vernacular of the region it is in?
Vernacular is the tongue of the people, the latin is still the language of the church and is what all theological beliefs of the church are written in. The church does not change
Can you do a video on Vatican 2? that whole area confuses me.
Padre, will this changes be also at the Hispanic world?
@MobiusCoin I think that, while there may be some small criticisms to be made, you haven't made them. Yes, English is an evolving language that will adapt to new situations, but unfortunately, that's meant in modern English that we've lost a sense of the sacred. I think that the florid prose of the new translation attempts to restore that.
@avyanez In a previous installment Father Barron bemoans the dumbing down of Catholicism but he fails to point out that the NO Mass was a dumbing down of the Mass.
It's ambiguous, for one thing. I think that was the point, when this translation happened.
@irksome1 I did a short presentation on this one point; you can find it on the "singingsisters" youtube channel.
@deemax90 Surely, the extraordinary form of the Mass (for which His Holiness has already grated a universal indult) is no bad thing in itself. Still, the Council Fathers saw fit to institute certain liturgical reforms, and the Church has not gone back on that commitment.
@iGregory67 ...
Your wife is a teacher in a Catholic school, and as of 11/8/11, she still doesn't know why the Missal is changing ??????
When I first immigrated from Hong Kong to Toronto, I found the English translation quite offending and “hated” it. I kept going to Chinese vernacular mass instead, as the translation retained the essence from Latin. I guess it is a cultural thing back then as we Chinese traditionally are more reverent to higher power. At any rate, I love the new translation now. Not only is it more poetic and courtly, but it also replaces the “commanding” tone with piety.
❤
@singingsisters Thank you, Sister Flanagan. I found your presentation on this point refreshing, since so much commentary on this has been glib. I do quibble with a couple of your arguments, noting that "many," as used in English, always implies something less than "all." If "all" is the definitional equivalent of "many," why did the Church not use the former term, unless she wanted to make a distinction? Also, in context, the verb "poured," is active, making a receptive sense of "many" unlikely.
@StormTrek and you know this because He told you? If so, what are you doing writing on the internet instead of spreading the new gospel according to StormTrek?
@deemax90 Lolz. Sitting infront of our PCs inside our homes doesn't make us the Doctor of the Church.
We should limit our Advises to Ourselves and Let the Doctors of The Church under the Guidance of the Holy Spirit sanctify the Church.
Ages better, but still largely less than the 《old》 Mess.
No need to watch a video you dislike. Also --- no need to disrespect somebody's religion. Isn't that what tolerance is about?
lol you know what I find fascinating about all this. English is a living evolving language, it adapts to new ideas and it is represented in the language. Latin is a dead language of strict rules and temporal syntax. What this translation is doing is re-Latinizing what was un-Latinized by Vatican II. Way to two step forwards one step back guys lol.
This new Roman Missal is Simply Orthodox. I am waiting to have it in Urdu Language.
interesting, the Anglican communion has been saying 'and with thy spirit' for some time. I think the change is a good one
The liturgist Klaus Gamber has convincingly explained that the celebration versus populum [towards the people] never existed in The Church.
This is the "protestant" invention of a theology that is fast becoming anthropology.
The new orientation of the liturgical celebration is a "man-centered program" of new direction for the Church contained within and according to the Second Vatican Council.
In the new rite "the priest" is facing towards people and turning his back on the Blessed Sacrament.
Fr. Barron, I find the assertion that the closer to the original Latin, the better it is, is problematic. This is not just with the Roman Liturgy, but also with much of Western Christianity. The idea that we must be as close to the original Latin, Greek, or Hebrew is not wise. Many nuances are lost in translation that can never be replicated. Deriving authority from translational strength will always leave you in the position of there always a more "theologically sound" translation.