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John!!!! Why no love for the Olight Perun 2 in your reviews?? I own one of nearly every model in their range over the last few years & my 6 staff and I use the Perun 2 on a daily basis doing electrical work. Angled torch clips onto your pocket or hat for hands free work in front of you. The magnetic base sticks onto switchboards and ceiling grids and faces the right way for working. The design is genius!! And then there is the head strap option. The Perun 2 needs a much bigger shout out please. Thanks for doing what you do!!!
How many electric cars catch fire every year in Australia? Passenger electric vehicles have a 0.0012 per cent chance of catching fire, according to research from EV FireSafe, which provides free EV fire safety knowledge for emergency responders. In comparison, petrol or diesel-powered cars have roughly a 0.1 per cent chance of igniting. In other words, an EV passenger vehicle is around 100 times less likely to catch fire than a traditional vehicle. That said, the average EV is only four years old, while the average ICE vehicle is around 12 to 15 years old, which might have some impact on the figures. "The figures vary slightly between data sources but, as a general rule, you're far less likely to have a fire in an electric vehicle than you are in an internal combustion engine vehicle," says EV FireSafe project director Emma Sutcliffe.
You might be interested in the design of the Cybertruck's battery. It has, as you suggested rear vents direct off gasses away from the truck. It also had a lot of internal free space, about 30% of the batteries volume, to allow those gasses to pass through. The aim being to prevent, or at least greatly slow, fires spreading from cell to cell.
@@Alantj22 More likely the space is to allow for future expansion of the number of cells, more than any concern over "safety", just look at all the other "design" features of very dubious concern to safety. If they were really concerned, they would have a standardised, labelled external port to allow copious amounts of water or other cooling medium to be pumped through the battery. As the electric vehicles in underground mines have.
@@Seventh7Art The vast majority of ICE fires are caused by... guess what... electrical issues. There are far far less EV's in the fleet than ICE and as you say, the ICE part of the fleet also contains vehicles a lot older than any EV, wait till the EV segment reaches even half their age and then revisit. What is the result in terms of heat and toxins released by these batteries compared to an ICE vehicle? Even with the toxins released by petrochemicals, EV's releases far, far more. ICE fires can be extinguished and controlled in minutes by basic readily available methods, from sand to water to dry chemical. That cannot happen with EV fires. Cherry picking one source does not make a fait accompli.
Use the training I was given as a volunteer for a chemical spill/fire. The captain had a box on the table and pulled out a pair of binoculars and said "I want you to be far enough away you f××king need these to see it. " Hell we didn't even have BAs so house fires guaranteed at least 1 or 2 with smoke inhalation if we couldn't account for the occupants and the neighbouring brigade with BAs were too far away. But usually by the time we got there the structure was too far gone to go in anyway.
I believe that politicians will do nothing towards EV fires until one or more of them are directly affected, for example an EV fire in parliament house or similar. The rest of us are merely an 'expendable collateral damage' nuisance to politicians with zero clout to change things.
Hey here is the plan ..... pollies want more EV's ... pollies gather in a common place ...... common place with underground car park complete with charging systems ...........
Nope. Insurance companies are going to wake up to the reality that EV fire will wipe their business out. They are going to require some mitigation efforts and outright ban on EV from the premise before some politicians car burns out.
Unfortunately, a lot of politicians… that is how they roll , they will jump at the first chance for some virtue signalling for some quick votes while doing no homework. And when shit hits the fan it’s … I did not know that …. Why didn’t they tell me , standard shifty ass pollie stuff.
Had my girlfriend accidentally drop a vape pen while getting off of my motorcycle. The thing fell into a crevice between the muffler and the frame of the bike. Unknown to me, I headed home. As I was parking, I noticed some flavorless smoke. After parking, the smoke got stronger. Still no smell nor taste. I neglected the nuisance and headed home. Looked back, and there was a fireball on the side on my motorcycle. It was burning bright and noisy, smelling pretty bad. Tried to push the thing off the bike with a skewer I had nearby. It was stuck in it's place and kept on burning bright and odorous. Scared of my motorcycle catching fire, I decided to urinate on the source of fire, which helped extinguish the source. The battery in the vape pen was 800mah. I can't imagine anything bigger "deflagrating" without significant consequences.
Had an electric fire on an old bsa bantam many years ago and I did the same ..... should have seen the look on some old trout that was walking her tiny doggo. Don't know if she was more shocked at me peeing in public or seeing a dong for probably the first time in decades 😄
Imagine in ten years time, people in some city get home from work, middle of winter, turn their aircons on, start cooking and put their electric cars on charge. There are about 7 gigawatts for the chargers alone (more than the biggest wind farm in Queensland 5 gig) plus all the other load. The electrical supply system groans and blackouts occur. On the bright side, the people who can't afford the cost of electricity can go outside and huddle under the power lines which will be red hot and sagging and get some radiant warmth
Yeah Kia's new badge design has caught a fair few people off guard in regards to how it reads so to speak. Merging the I with the A and then reshaping the A to look more like an N made it read KN instead of Kia. I don't read it that way and I never read it as that from the start when that new badge design came out however I do see how it would confuse those who may be less literate and perhaps also have vision problems and I do sympathise with those people who have those issues. Putting the dot above the I would've at least took away some of the confusion. Also putting the crossbar back in the A would've solved the confusion completely. That badge drama doesn't seem to have affected Kia's popularity much though surprisingly.
It's funny, when i get my insurance for my pickup truck, one of the questions is, do you carry hazardous materials and I'm assuming if i did, my insurance would go up, but EVs are just one big hazardous bomb waiting to go off and that's fine. What a joke.
It's a real health and safety issue and I'm sure there are many owners that may be starting to experience low levels of regret but need to push on with the narrative so they don't realise their loss. It is shocking (pun intended).
Know the fun part. No manufacturer has programmed proactive cooling while car is not used. EG if the temps start to climb, electronics will NOT start actively cooling the battery. That is one major FUP… ✌️
@@youbencowell you are talking about post drive or post charge. But this has limited timeframe to operate. It will not do that after a day or two of not being used. The idea is to conserve the battery 12v and high-voltage but it is a major issue IMHO. Battery management systems should be active all the time. It is not like there is no Volts to spare. Problem is in programming…
@@jevgeniardassov ha ha, every time I hear something dumb about the engineering of the EV, i wonder why so many people don’t do any research for themselves before committing to the purchase of something so expensive and yet 100% disposable with very little resale value. It amazes me the dumbness of so many consumers.
I think EV fires are currently rare, due to the number on the road. However, the secondary damage to other property and therefore cost claim is greater for EVs when the cards are stacked.
Local firies in my part of the world here in Oz are expected to travel to Brisbane for EV fire training. They were told that on average there is one per week that goes Poof! but the media has kept a lid on it.
Because ICE cars are involved in something like 60x more fires. EVs are harder to deal with when they catch fire, but they catch fire a hell of a lot less often.
In Sydney there are underground EV charging places. Chatswood Chase has one in the lower ground level. You wonder who ever thought that was a good idea
There are chemicals to extinguish flammable metals. Even fire extinguishers. Class D extinguishers. Most of the time, they run their course before the proper resources can be brought to bare.
Well said John ! Totally agree !! I would also like to point out another danger to the travelling public . Stradbroke ferries in Qld, are letting EV Scooters onto their ferries, which, most of the time, are jam packed with the travelling public ! And, they are , in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, putting us all at risk of a EV scooter catching fire while on board and putting everyone there in danger , and turning a blind eye to that risk !!
Cook offs are going to be a regular occurrence as more EVs are sold. In fact at some point most neighbourhoods may experience almost daily cook offs and there could be a faint smell of EV toxins in the air almost permanently.
Just imagine the chain reaction of a whole line of EV's, whether on charge or not, if one goes up. Underground car park, EV after EV off-gassing and going up in a fireball. That is super-scary stuff.
There is a video from a few years ago where a minivan caught light while charging and destroyed a truck and several cars charging next to it. Chain reaction
Honestly. That was the best in-video commercial I've seen in years. I have premium, so the only ads I see are the creator embedded ones and they usually get FF'd immediately, but flashlights, knives and pens are always useful, lol.
Just to give an update on the topic. Today 200 plus cars went up in a blaze in a warehouse near Lisbon International Airport. Just another EV pooping it's electrons and sharing it's love all around. The cloud of the burning cars covered almost the entire city for hours. Lets just save the environment one big fire at the time.
The Electric Viking made mention of ev fires but palmed off any concern by comparing the number of ev fires against the numerically greater ice fires while neglecting the massive difference in damage between the two.
I have ripped the EV a few new ones on some of his inexcusably daft comments. Never get a coherent reply. Don't bother listening to the Elon Musk fanboy anymore.
If 1% of the car market is responsible for 2% of the fires then, yes there are more fires from the rest, shame that the number of fires per 1000 of a type brings that reality into view. ( less than 1% of cars are EVs and, if we leave out cars in "war zones" or criminal actions, more than 2% of the fires are EVs. All the burnt out cars on the side of Australian highways are the result of Drop bear attacks ).
I went into a major Australian hardware chain store today. Inside the building, but just outside the checkout area, next to the worker whose only job is to pretend to inspect your receipt carefully as you exit there was an an e-bike parked by one of the customers and my mind flashed back to the e-bike elevator fire video as I walked past it.
Logan hospital multi level carpark. Level 3 in public thoroughfare are EV chargers amongst normal cars. I pointed this out and they didn't comprehend there was an issue. I wait the day this carpark is levelled by fire.
According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.
@@Seventh7Artbut you can see from the Korean event, one EV can destroy 140 other cars(and possibly the building structurally) so there is that distinction. Also EVs are relatively new, so what is the likely hood of a fire in a 15 to 20 year old EV compared with an ice of the same age. The numbers of existing EVs of that age is going to be miniscule. So the stats will not tell you an accurate story until a large cohort of old EVs exist. When they exist, Then you can compare like with like
@@Seventh7Art Assuming these fact are correct, what it doesnt say is how the fires occurred, nor the result, nor the difficulty of putting them out, nor how many other cars caught fire, nor how many ppl were evacuated from their homes. I have been driving for 51 years and only ever seen 1 car on fire. I have definitely seen more 1300 cars per year, so why am I not seeing ICE cars on fire? If something smells like BS, I'd suggest it probably is.
@@Seventh7Art And EVs are a much younger fleet, burn at incredibly higher temperatures than petrol/diesel fires, cannot be put out by sprinkler systems or first response options, and go up very fast with much more significant consequences.
I'm in Singapore on holiday, visited the enormous Vivo shopping centre down at the port today. There's two new "Zeeker" EVs on display right in the centre of the shopping centre, ground floor. One of the "Zeekers" is on charge as we are looking them over. I thought "this could be interesting if this battery fires up amidst these large crowds of people". Not guaranteed, but why unnecessarily increase risk to the public by charging the cars whilst they're on display. I've seen a lot of ICE vehicles similarly displayed at shopping centres over many years and never sensed any danger.
As a volunteer fire fighter in rural Victoria, we had a meeting about a month and a half ago going over battery basics covering everything from tool batteries, house batteries and EV's. The best approach that we were told that we could immediately apply is asset protection around the fire and approach with the wind blowing the smoke away from us and to use pressure of the pumps to do the work since getting close at all is just not worth the risk certainly without BA. The point on that as well being a small rural brigade you might have maybe 2 or 3 BA certified members IF they are around when called and backup from other brigades are 30 mins at best away from you.
I wonder if the pollies will pass a laws against their own negligence and the liabilities they ignore. They are happy to make our country a nanny state in every other respect.
On a island across the channel from France with the initials u and k there was an ioniq 5 inferno, many locals posted the images on social media and sending it to local media channels and every single time any post went up it was as quickly removed, it was like a game of cat and mouse and even the local rag didn't report it??? Supression of utopia
@@philhealey4443 Nah Negative young Fill, try harder please Son. Its bluddy Funny eh ! ( and i also am a grammar-nazi thus i concur with John ) Get it Correct first-time !
Underground electric mining equipment is equipped with fire suppression systems. Good for non-battery fires. I've seen a picture a few months ago (can't find it right now) where an electric excavator had a port for a fire hose to be connected to pump water straight into the engine bay. Not sure they plumb it to the batter cells. My point is that it really is the easy part of the engineering question.
Mining equipment fire suppression (this term is used exactly) systems have only one purpose. It is to knock the fire intensity down so that the operator can safely exit the vehicle. If a tyred vehicle is not consumed in the fire then it is left isolated and monitored from a distance for a day to protect people from the risk of a tyre explosion.
What's going to happen in a few years when we get stockpiles of these ev's when insurance companies write these things off with relatively minor damage due to repair costs.
In that green political utopia those spent batteries would be carted off to a shiny new recycling plant to be dismantled for their valuable materials, the reality, at least here in Britain is that there's precisely no facilities, either planned or under construction.
@@monteceitomoocher CSIRO wrote a great paper on the state of battery recycling. Unlike lead-acid batteries, which have s recycling rate of 95% , only around 5-10% of lithium ion batteries (LIBs) are recycled. And 80% of those are batteries from small consumer devices. They also said that the cost Of recycling is 2-3 times greater than the value of the reclaimed materials. (Also, apropos to safety- there are serious issues in transporting, dissembling and recycling batteries). You can google for the PDF.
@@ChrisWells1 thanks for that, as i understand matters, damaged faulty or spent car batteries are supposed to be returned to the appropriate manufacturer, which in our case would be carefully storing them then shipping them out of the country to the manufacturer's own facilities, all of which presents an array of safety hazards and danger to life along the way, politicians don't seem to understand how this stuff works, they think issuing a few directives and goals is all they have to do, and somehow all of the infrastructure and support systems will organically fall into place, this stuff needs clear direction and planning, and decades to create, it ain't going to happen by 2030, if ever.
@@monteceitomoocher As @AutoExpertJC may agree - manufacturers need to have an obligation to accept cars back for recycling at the end of their life, regardless of defect, accident or warranty status, to stop the inevitable environmental disaster.
John!!!! Why no love for the Olight Perun 2 in your reviews?? I own one of nearly every model in their range over the last few years & my 6 staff and I use the Perun 2 on a daily basis doing electrical work. Angled torch clips onto your pocket or hat for hands free work in front of you. The magnetic base sticks onto switchboards and ceiling grids and faces the right way for working. The design is genius!! And then there is the head strap option. The Perun 2 needs a much bigger shout out please. Thanks for doing what you do!!!
The original report on this incident that I watched on a TH-cam channel StachD, who is an American Firefighter, reported that the dudes wearing the face nappies were building security staff. It would be expected that the attending Fire Fighters should have evacuated such personnel/public from the area as their first concern?
Whilst I get part of your argument, I would argue that front deflegation port and front charging port… doors open creating a shield to exit behind … you could ad a rear inward only port to flood the battery with chilled salty water If the car caught fire whilst driving the driver would see the fire or off gassing …
Fire Brigades are re-active rather than pro-active and normally have to be forced into doing something. And even then, it's generally a box ticking exercise. Look at Victoria, they still have a jab mandate for firefighters (only firefighters in Australia still mandated) but haven't required a booster since March 2022. Even ATAGI acknowledges that would mean you're unvaccinated yet they cling to the mandate anyway. Not to mention brigades are trialing/introducing EV fire trucks. That will be embarrassing if one of those enters thermal runaway and burns a station down.
The BIG Laugh of the EV Fire Truck is they have a BIG Diesel Engine to run everything when the battery goes Flat which is designed to give 1 Hour of Service, mmmm 10-30 minutes traveling to the fire, 5--30 minutes running Pumps. 99% of Fires take well over an hour to even get to the "under control" state.
@@YouShouldThink4Yourself That could be a good combination. I went to a bush fire with my uncle many decades ago and he mentioned that they didn't like diesel fire trucks because they don't work in a low oxygen environment. Right when your trying to run from or through a wall of flame the engine stalls.
Bloody Brilliant John! Charging Stations below ground is an accident waiting...Auckland Council Main Admin have them. Hate to think of the thousands of people working above...Council Vehicles (shared), many drivers, only takes one driver to damage underneath, not think anything of it, for the next occupants to risk their lives...as you say, its all waiting to unravel, Satin is looking on.
Every point you make is valid and I'm not sure why no action is being taken on this issue. Our office building in the city just installed 4 EV chargers in the underground carpark and get this, they picked the 4 bays right next to the lift. If an event like this happens in our building, are we talking about 12 floors being gassed? I really do hope Insurance Companies catch onto this but I fear it won't happen until a few expensive buildings are structurally damaged beyond repaid. Keep up the good work John. These videos are a great for public awareness!
I am sorrrry I can not give more thumbs UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! My eyes are watering My stomach is sore Your phraseologies are incredible. Do please keep it going .
My workplace have a couple of hybrid Camrys and RAVs in the fleet. They’ve proven to be very reliable and efficient. Yet, as a precaution, I mentioned to the WHS team that it might be a good idea to park the hybrids in the open air carpark rather than the basement park in the unlikely event a battery dropped it’s bundle. Am I being a bit alarmist? I figure the hybrid batteries are significantly smaller than full EVs, but presumably the battery chemistry/tech is similar. BTW the WHS team dismissed it as a non issue. Hopefully they’re right.
Thank you for your attention to this John. I'm a volunteer firefighter and this is something that is considered in the service. In my brigade we have it as a given that if there are people with SCBA quals at a car fire then they should don BA and fight the fire like that. Here is a weakness though, the truck seats six, we have 2 BA sets. The reason being that a firetruck is a bit of a hardware store, it has to have gear to cover everything. Other same size trucks with the same crew will have 4BA sets, different set up on those trucks and that is only because that was the answer decided on when juggling all the demands. So if an electric car fire is the job with any luck we are able to park upwind get the BA crew to get onto it and elevate the job so other trucks attend, although if the emergency call was for a car on fire there would be two trucks minimum sent. So it would be chancy for firefighters and they would be fighting it in PPE gold which was in the video, standard stuff that is great for heat protection but chemicals I couldn't say. Rules are to get it bagged up in a hazard bag after a job and off to the cleaners, so we could handle it successfully but as you say the risks are significant with this stuff.
I just retrieved my Bosch rechargeable sander from the garage, in preparation for a little DIY job. I haven’t used it for around four years, maybe more. Slapping the battery into it’s charger, I was surprised to see it was still fully charged. “Nah.” says I. “Can’t be true.” So I left it on there to see if it was just slow to switch into charge mode. Well I never. It was indeed still holding charge. Repeat after me. They don’t make ’em like they used to. Maybe more accurately we should say, they don’t make ’em WHERE they used to.
just wait until we have more older EVs, with similar issues that you might find in older gas/diesel vehicles that are usually the once catching fire, rarely does a new ICE vehicle catch fire, but new EVs does
One would think that a spot could be universally found to put a port somewhere on every electric car that had an internal pipe runn8ng straight to the battery compartment that fire fighters could easily pop open and aim there high preasured large hoses at to channel water directly as quick as possible to the battery. A more technical way would be to have that port pop open on the battery management system, detecting the start of the thermal run away.
John, this car might still get an ANCAP 5-star rating, even though they don't assess fire risks that could burn down buildings, turn into a BBQ, or smoke-suffocate a person!
Last year I saw a YT of a guy who invented a device to put EV battery fires out. Basically it was a powered spike/drill on the end of a steel tube attached to a fire hose. The operator stood back holding the tube and pushed the end into the car floor. The large drill bit then penetrated the battery box and then high power water was injected to flood the interior of the battery rapidly. That worked really well in the demo. I wonder why this wasn't adopted by Fire Services as it seemed to be a very promising solution to EV fires.
All manufacturers should add water ports that are directly linked to the cell packs so that the fire service can couple on the water hose to flood the areas. These could be easily accessible.
@@kirstenferreira3008 if the fire has gone that far and the whole car is engulfed then it’s too late. If it can be caught sooner it could slow the whole thermal runaway process.
@@cnewto12 once thermal runaway is reached its merely seconds before the entire car is engulfed and starts spreading to anything flammable around it! Possibly water cooling could be incorporated in the cooling process during charging but this would be cost prohibitive. My big concern is that the older these batteries get the more unstable they become and if they’re in an underground parking area it could quite easily be acatastrophic event !
As a firefighter the thing I find odd is the identification for an EV var is a blue sticker on the number plate. Most car fires I go to the number plates are usually already melted and definitely the sticker will be gone! It needs a metal badge in a standard spot on say the roof, not a plastic sticker.
My thumb is wearing out from continually being raised to the "Thumbs-up" position whilst watching your videos. Superb coshing/lashing of EV industry, fire safety industry, politicians any others in range. Talking about Mercedes having a tame cheapo Chinese EV battery supplier, Bosch are doing the same with Domestic Appliances. I just had the power supply in the base unit of one of these variable output temperature kettles melt and burn through the 3 Kw power supply leads to the element. Part of the reason it happened was that Bosch had allowed tbe power supply board manufacturer to dispense with a dedicated surface mounted connector for the output power leads to the element and had instead permitted the manufacturer to solder a male lucar connector directly into the power board. This method was essentially Fred Carnos Circus/split-arse, but did work, as long as the solder didn't get too warm. But if the kettle over-boiled for even a minute more than its proper cut-off time, with 3 Kw going through it the solder melted, the lucar connector detached from the power board and sparking followed, sufficient to melt surrounding wiring and parts of the plastic case. Whilst the lucar connector was undamaged i. e. it was"Man_enough" to take 3Kw running through it for exfended periods, the solder joint wasn't. This defect had been progressively developing, silently and smokelessly, for 18 months before it failed completely.. within the two year guarentee period. And the reason the kettle occasionally over-boiled, even when full of water was that deposits from calcium, in solution in the "Hard" local water supply, had formed an enveloping depoisit over the temperature sensor probe in the watertank, causing it to read the temperature incorrectly. But although, the kettle was over-boiling, the element base wasn't getting sufficiently hot to trigger the bi-metallic over-boil protection discs adjacent to the element. So, the power wasn't cut-off. Circuit design error ? Lots of photos oc the internal points of failure accompanied the complaint to the CEOs of Bosch UK and the domestic appliance division in Germany. And I was issued with a new replacment... so I am keeping a close watch on that. I noted that the kettle didn't have the imprime of the British "Kite" mark for Electrical Safety anywhere on tbe casing ! Suprise.! Bosch told me that the defective kettle had been sent back to the factory for further investigation, but a month on and I have heard nothing more so I presume it went into the electronic trash wheelie-bin in the car park of the official repair agents Sh*t poor, but all the kit from China seems to be manufactured to this lower standard, even though importing European manufacturers/suppliers are content to stick their brand on these things. IMHO this is a type of fraud ! Eyes peeled for the Chinese branded EVs. 😮
Funny thing is that car manufacturers are required by law to have containment measures for their battery storage warehouses. When working for a "winged" car manufacturer in UK, I remember that, when we started playing with batteries, we were mandated to install these humoungous metal coffins full of sand in the designated warehouse but also alone the route from storage to line side location
@Auto Expert, I enjoy your videos. I am an Electrical Engineer and years ago when the shift from Nickel-Metal Hydride to Lithium Ion batteries became prolific (for obvious energy density reasons) I was horrified, knowing the safety downsides of these bombs waiting to go off. I have watched your videos with interest and completely agree with your assessment of Lithium batteries and share your safety concerns. EV batteries, combining lots of small potential problems into one or two massive problems is, well, massively problematic. I have researched "inert liquids" which several companies are developing for "immersive cooling" of Lithium and other chemistry batteries. Such liquids provide cooling for the batteries, so they are more easily kept within a safe and operationally efficient temperature range, but the liquids also provide a flame retardant or at least resist the nature of the self-propelled runaway catastrophic shit shows we commonly see now. Such developments make me more optimistic about Lithium Ion/Lithium Polymer/NickelCobalt etc batteries and their safe use in large installations. I am interested to know if you have heard of these developments and your thoughts on them.
If you have a degassing port at the back you could put a firehose connection at the front of the battery pack. Get 100% of the cooling straight on the cells.
I was thinking about how to mitigate EV fires at the start of the clip and imagining fire stop walls between the cars in much the same way there are walls between transformers in many electricity substations where space to separate them isn't available. It'd knock the parking density way down but at least the whole place wouldn't turn into an inferno.
There's a hard limit to range based on energy density because of the energy needed to haul the battery around. A dead battery and full battery weigh the same so once it's got 10% left, it still weighs as much as a whole gasoline car for the battery alone. This means that a battery technology with lower energy density can never go as far as one with more energy per unit weight, there is a point where the amount of extra battery weight needed to go just one more kilometer or mile goes up an exponential climb where the maximum theoretical range cannot go past. For lead acid, it's rather modest, just enough for daily commutes and not much more, for NiMH it's more but not impressive, you could use it and be fine most of the time... also they can safely charge faster than lead acid while surviving more charge cycles and lack the acid so there's that. Lithium ion ranges in energy density from around or below NiMH for the more long lived LFP cells, and like double that of NiMH for the less stable Lithium cobalt oxide, just a bit less for Lithium manganese cobalt cells like tool batteries and EV batteries... so Lithium ion cars can go about as far as Tesla says (at least on paper in perfect conditions), or considerably less if they use more stable chemistries. After you get the ranges Tesla boasts about, the added weight of the battery exponentially increases so fast that you literally cannot go farther. And for gas/diesel... the range limit is a LOT higher... more than any car sold ever has a fuel tank for... think absolutely stupid distances if you tow a trailer full of fuel like a fuel truck does. That is why they use more unstable chemistries, the absolute physical limit to an LFP battery car is considerably lower than that of Lithium Manganese cobalt Lithium ion... they're both lithium ion, they just have different electrodes with very different energy densities. An LFP car would have range in the neighborhood of a NiMH car and we don't use NiMH because it would not be possible to make one go as far on a charge as people want to see in the spec sheets... though NiMH would be less dangerous and could survive constant slow overcharge and a TON of charge cycles without a sweat... but lower run times means people want the fiery and sexy lithium ion variants with the extra energy density. Too bad because NiMH also handles extreme heat and cold like a champ. Had several Lithium ion gizmos just fail at around freezing, and a few that sort of work to -20C... not one that can work at full rated power at -35C like my cheap rechargeable NiMH cells. NiMH is not perfect though, it is usually less charge efficient and rather heavy, plus, because it's so stable and electrically similar enough to NiCd that NiMH gadgets tend to lack advanced charge controllers that would be mandatory in Lithium Ion gadgets, hence they take damage from undercharge or a fast overcharge (faster than they are able to dissipate via their catalyst) and they lose capacity... but you put an undercharge protection on them and they just wont die.
The only safe battery is going to be one in which one or more individual cells can thermally runaway without setting off their neighbours. That would mean gaps between cells, ventilation channels to take heat away and possibly thermal dividing barriers as well. Result would be a much lower energy density/volume ratio which equals less storage capacity/range in the real world.
Just by placing a quick connections, the car could have circulating water chilling the battery as it charges. And the water could be monitored for any temperature spikes. I already have an idea for a patent.
I am an incident Responder and we have done a EV course and it's interesting that I have spoken to a lot of first responders and they haven't been trained in EV fires.
They should vent the batteries into the passenger compartment in order to let the EVangelists experience first hand the problem they have brought onto the world.
An ethical dilemma. Cruel solution, but on balance- fair. Solely vented to the driver’s seat, of course. Children and other passengers are … just passengers in the owners ev pilgrimage.
18:25 One has to wonder if the cooling system might not be more effective if it was situated _above_ the batteries, where the heat will naturally want to go. Heat rises, sort of thing. You may lose a little help for the cooling system as it's further from the air flow, but it places the batteries themselves nearer said airflow, so that sounds like a zero-sum game. And access for fire fighters would be at least improved - especially once the flames burn through the lower cover, which likely doesn't take all that long, what with one thing and another. Thoughts?
I believe they are supplying those nozzles to the fire brigade in the UK along with a few 'special chemicals', however I don't know how effective these are. Having astandard inlet port for fire suppression and exhaust port would mean cars could be connected to a system while parked.
I work in the food industry, the first thing we tell clients: safe food first, after that do what you will. In the food industry the regulators and prosecutors will look for deficiencies in approached to food safety and that will typically be the basis for the severity of legal retribution. Safety First.
Maybe EV designers need to incorporate a standardised emergency battery box water injection port - something along the lines of a high volume capable pipe hooked up to the charger station infrastructure during charge. Arrange automatic battery flushing when problems occur - venting through a specific exit port as you propose.
John, I have had this same thought about having a water connection that feeds straight to the battery ever since you showed us the mining machine that was battery powered that also had this. My thought is it should be next to the charge plug so it's easy to find for the fire fighters to find. If it is the same connection as the quick connectors the fire service use on their hoses it would make it even easier to pump a large amount of water into the battery very quickly. My 2 cents (+ gst) worth.
LFP trades energy density and power output rate for safety and longevity. They're a little like NiMH with potentially thousands of cycles, decent but not great power output (NiMH sometimes is rather good for this depending on if they're Low Self Discharge or not), but due to physics and chemistry, like NiMH, LFP has a lower theoretical maximum energy density in the materials that store the energy... not including things like the physical structure that holds the cell together or the bus-bars. LFP would last a VERY long time as long as it's not overcharged (NiMH can tolerate constant slow overcharge by venting excess energy as heat via a catalyst), but like NiMH they cannot EVER make and EV with LFP batteries because it would not be able to drive far enough before the physical hard limit on the range is an issue. No technological changes will fix this, this is physics and chemistry, only a different battery technology would fix this... and LFP still burn badly if they catch fire, they're just less prone to randomly exploding. Even lead acid batteries are dangerous at scale, had a friend with some lead acid batteries to power an RV (so smaller than an EV battery, just used for lights and appliances), when charging, lead acid batteries - even in good condition - make some hydrogen gas, if they are charged faster than they feel like absorbing, or of anything goes wrong, they make LOTS of hydrogen from the charger current... which collects in high places like Helium and BANG!!! no more RV. Batteries are dangerous because unlike liquid fuels like gasoline or diesel, they have both sides of the REDOX reaction in one canister or pouch, that is both oxidizer and reducer are present and react as electricity flows through the circuit doing work... Oxidizers are named after oxygen because that is the most common oxidizer (seeing as we breathe it to oxidize sugar and power our bodies). In order for gasoline to burn, it has to mix with oxygen which requires it to evaporate and mix before it can burn, this allows it to be safely stored as long as it isn't allowed to be sprayed out via an atomizer (like a spray nozzle) and mix with air all at once. In a pool of liquid, gasoline is safe(ish)... it can't explode unless the vapors are trapped and allowed to mix with lots of air... and then just those vapors are what burn fast. Gasoline in a puddle can only burn as fast as it can boil and mix with air which is fast but not explosion fast. Batteries would be like if you had gasoline and a liquid oxidizer in the same canister... VERY BAD mix of chemicals. Gasoline despite having orders of magnitude more energy per gram is safer per gram than batteries for this reason, it needs to mix with air to burn.
I would like to highlight the Golburn St carpark in Sydney CBD. There is priority parking for EV's on the ground floor just past the entrance and if one of those vehicles were to go into thermal runaway the potential consequenses are dire as the structure is built over the railway between Town Hall station and Central. Not only would evacuation be compromised but the potential to shut down the rail network also a major risk. If the concrete and steel structure was compromised this could mean a shut down of the rail network in that area for months.
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John!!!! Why no love for the Olight Perun 2 in your reviews?? I own one of nearly every model in their range over the last few years & my 6 staff and I use the Perun 2 on a daily basis doing electrical work. Angled torch clips onto your pocket or hat for hands free work in front of you. The magnetic base sticks onto switchboards and ceiling grids and faces the right way for working. The design is genius!! And then there is the head strap option. The Perun 2 needs a much bigger shout out please. Thanks for doing what you do!!!
How many electric cars catch fire every year in Australia?
Passenger electric vehicles have a 0.0012 per cent chance of catching fire, according to research from EV FireSafe, which provides free EV fire safety knowledge for emergency responders. In comparison, petrol or diesel-powered cars have roughly a 0.1 per cent chance of igniting.
In other words, an EV passenger vehicle is around 100 times less likely to catch fire than a traditional vehicle. That said, the average EV is only four years old, while the average ICE vehicle is around 12 to 15 years old, which might have some impact on the figures.
"The figures vary slightly between data sources but, as a general rule, you're far less likely to have a fire in an electric vehicle than you are in an internal combustion engine vehicle," says EV FireSafe project director Emma Sutcliffe.
You might be interested in the design of the Cybertruck's battery.
It has, as you suggested rear vents direct off gasses away from the truck. It also had a lot of internal free space, about 30% of the batteries volume, to allow those gasses to pass through.
The aim being to prevent, or at least greatly slow, fires spreading from cell to cell.
@@Alantj22 More likely the space is to allow for future expansion of the number of cells, more than any concern over "safety", just look at all the other "design" features of very dubious concern to safety. If they were really concerned, they would have a standardised, labelled external port to allow copious amounts of water or other cooling medium to be pumped through the battery. As the electric vehicles in underground mines have.
@@Seventh7Art
The vast majority of ICE fires are caused by... guess what... electrical issues.
There are far far less EV's in the fleet than ICE and as you say, the ICE part of the fleet also contains vehicles a lot older than any EV, wait till the EV segment reaches even half their age and then revisit.
What is the result in terms of heat and toxins released by these batteries compared to an ICE vehicle? Even with the toxins released by petrochemicals, EV's releases far, far more.
ICE fires can be extinguished and controlled in minutes by basic readily available methods, from sand to water to dry chemical. That cannot happen with EV fires.
Cherry picking one source does not make a fait accompli.
I’m a volunteer firefighter and these vehicles scare the crap out of me! 😟
Use the training I was given as a volunteer for a chemical spill/fire. The captain had a box on the table and pulled out a pair of binoculars and said "I want you to be far enough away you f××king need these to see it. " Hell we didn't even have BAs so house fires guaranteed at least 1 or 2 with smoke inhalation if we couldn't account for the occupants and the neighbouring brigade with BAs were too far away. But usually by the time we got there the structure was too far gone to go in anyway.
Yes I'm not even storing some of my tool and larger lithium batts in or near my house anymore
That poor man n elevator really got to me
Electrical and chemical fires scare hell out of me. But this is a whole new level of fear
Electrical and chemical fires scare hell out of me. But this is a whole new level of fear- are any of these batts safe against thermal run away?
I believe that politicians will do nothing towards EV fires until one or more of them are directly affected, for example an EV fire in parliament house or similar. The rest of us are merely an 'expendable collateral damage' nuisance to politicians with zero clout to change things.
Hey here is the plan ..... pollies want more EV's ... pollies gather in a common place ...... common place with underground car park complete with charging systems ...........
Another thought ..... a new November the 5th coming up ?
@@doogssmee9742considering what the UK has at the helm at the mo.
Great plan.
Nope. Insurance companies are going to wake up to the reality that EV fire will wipe their business out. They are going to require some mitigation efforts and outright ban on EV from the premise before some politicians car burns out.
Unfortunately, a lot of politicians… that is how they roll , they will jump at the first chance for some virtue signalling for some quick votes while doing no homework.
And when shit hits the fan it’s … I did not know that …. Why didn’t they tell me , standard shifty ass pollie stuff.
Anyone from Perth Arena watching this ? You might want to re-think those EV chargers in your underground car park.
Had my girlfriend accidentally drop a vape pen while getting off of my motorcycle. The thing fell into a crevice between the muffler and the frame of the bike. Unknown to me, I headed home. As I was parking, I noticed some flavorless smoke. After parking, the smoke got stronger. Still no smell nor taste. I neglected the nuisance and headed home. Looked back, and there was a fireball on the side on my motorcycle. It was burning bright and noisy, smelling pretty bad. Tried to push the thing off the bike with a skewer I had nearby. It was stuck in it's place and kept on burning bright and odorous. Scared of my motorcycle catching fire, I decided to urinate on the source of fire, which helped extinguish the source. The battery in the vape pen was 800mah. I can't imagine anything bigger "deflagrating" without significant consequences.
Always keep a full bladder😊
If you want to smoke, baccy is the best bet.
Need a new girlfriend mate 😂
Probably best to continue smoking cigarettes or cigars.
Had an electric fire on an old bsa bantam many years ago and I did the same ..... should have seen the look on some old trout that was walking her tiny doggo. Don't know if she was more shocked at me peeing in public or seeing a dong for probably the first time in decades 😄
Imagine in ten years time, people in some city get home from work, middle of winter, turn their aircons on, start cooking and put their electric cars on charge. There are about 7 gigawatts for the chargers alone (more than the biggest wind farm in Queensland 5 gig) plus all the other load. The electrical supply system groans and blackouts occur. On the bright side, the people who can't afford the cost of electricity can go outside and huddle under the power lines which will be red hot and sagging and get some radiant warmth
Rather ironically, the advert prior to this video was for the KN EV6 :). Towering inferno remains one of my favourite movies.
Yeah Kia's new badge design has caught a fair few people off guard in regards to how it reads so to speak. Merging the I with the A and then reshaping the A to look more like an N made it read KN instead of Kia. I don't read it that way and I never read it as that from the start when that new badge design came out however I do see how it would confuse those who may be less literate and perhaps also have vision problems and I do sympathise with those people who have those issues. Putting the dot above the I would've at least took away some of the confusion. Also putting the crossbar back in the A would've solved the confusion completely. That badge drama doesn't seem to have affected Kia's popularity much though surprisingly.
Check out Soylent Green. That's the goal of all of this crap.
It's funny, when i get my insurance for my pickup truck, one of the questions is, do you carry hazardous materials and I'm assuming if i did, my insurance would go up, but EVs are just one big hazardous bomb waiting to go off and that's fine. What a joke.
Now that you mention it how would you like to drive through a tunnel in a fully electric world?
ICE cars have a tank of explosive liquid on board. Even scaled for the number sold, ICE cars are involved in 60x the number of fires than EVs.
Some insurance carriers are refusing to cover them to.
If it were a big problem, insurance premiums would go up given they cover 3rd party damage and injury.
@@holdenhv they are going up 🤷♂️
I bet the EV community LOVE you John 🤣
Haha! True
It's a real health and safety issue and I'm sure there are many owners that may be starting to experience low levels of regret but need to push on with the narrative so they don't realise their loss. It is shocking (pun intended).
It is in their interests as well
This doesn't happen to a Tesla...
@@andrewlee8413 Not really... from insurance numbers, ICE cars are involved in 60x as many fires per 100K sold.
Disgraceful how these EV’s keep catching fire. And nothing from the politicians.
Probably because ICE vehicles are between 20x and 80x more likely to catch fire when compared to EVs.
Swinburne University of Technology research.
@@emmett3067Bullshit !!!
Probably because they still catch fire significantly less frequently than petrol and hybrid cars
Just Kia and Hyundai 😂
Disgraceful how these EV’s keep catching fire. And not the politicians.
Know the fun part. No manufacturer has programmed proactive cooling while car is not used. EG if the temps start to climb, electronics will NOT start actively cooling the battery. That is one major FUP… ✌️
I'm certain the EV6 cools when not in use, after journeys or when charging. Mine has made fan and pump noises at these times.
@@youbencowell you are talking about post drive or post charge. But this has limited timeframe to operate. It will not do that after a day or two of not being used. The idea is to conserve the battery 12v and high-voltage but it is a major issue IMHO. Battery management systems should be active all the time. It is not like there is no Volts to spare. Problem is in programming…
@@jevgeniardassov ha ha, every time I hear something dumb about the engineering of the EV, i wonder why so many people don’t do any research for themselves before committing to the purchase of something so expensive and yet 100% disposable with very little resale value. It amazes me the dumbness of so many consumers.
I think EV fires are currently rare, due to the number on the road. However, the secondary damage to other property and therefore cost claim is greater for EVs when the cards are stacked.
This cars are almost brand new.
You don't need much exposure to these things to be ruinef once these things cook off
Even P 2 marginal for " regular" smokey fire
Local firies in my part of the world here in Oz are expected to travel to Brisbane for EV fire training. They were told that on average there is one per week that goes Poof! but the media has kept a lid on it.
@@voxac30withstrat Thanks for your service.
Why would anyone buy a spontaneous combustion car instead of an internal combustion car?
Because ICE cars are involved in something like 60x more fires. EVs are harder to deal with when they catch fire, but they catch fire a hell of a lot less often.
@@JorgTheElder A watermelon has appeared in the comments.
To pretend they are saving the climate
A lot of stupid people believe they are " saving the planet " ....🤣
@@JorgTheElder 6 x EV’s per day are catching fire in China.
Theses EV’s are pretty new, wait until they start ageing.
In Sydney there are underground EV charging places. Chatswood Chase has one in the lower ground level. You wonder who ever thought that was a good idea
Battery fires contain their own oxidant, water won't help extinguish the reaction. There is almost nothing anyone can do but run.
There are chemicals to extinguish flammable metals. Even fire extinguishers. Class D extinguishers.
Most of the time, they run their course before the proper resources can be brought to bare.
Well said John ! Totally agree !! I would also like to point out another danger to the travelling public . Stradbroke ferries in Qld, are letting EV Scooters onto their ferries, which, most of the time, are jam packed with the travelling public ! And, they are , in my opinion, and the opinion of many others, putting us all at risk of a EV scooter catching fire while on board and putting everyone there in danger , and turning a blind eye to that risk !!
Cook offs are going to be a regular occurrence as more EVs are sold. In fact at some point most neighbourhoods may experience almost daily cook offs and there could be a faint smell of EV toxins in the air almost permanently.
Just imagine the chain reaction of a whole line of EV's, whether on charge or not, if one goes up. Underground car park, EV after EV off-gassing and going up in a fireball. That is super-scary stuff.
There is a video from a few years ago where a minivan caught light while charging and destroyed a truck and several cars charging next to it. Chain reaction
No need to imagine.
Google: BYD showroom fire
Well they will get more common place as there are more on the roads and the evs start to age.
It's a pity the video about Olight products was rudely interrupted by something about batteries...
Honestly. That was the best in-video commercial I've seen in years. I have premium, so the only ads I see are the creator embedded ones and they usually get FF'd immediately, but flashlights, knives and pens are always useful, lol.
Yes ironic but thankfully different technology.
It is very easy to skip forward to the relevant content.
With EVs it seems there are 3 categories of people. The deaf, the ignorant and the aware.
Don't forget the Planet Saving Virtue Signallers......oh....wait.....
@@davidnobular9220 The groups don't have to be mutually exclusive . . . :)
You're making sense, therefore nothing is going to change. We're at socially peak dumb, so need to dial down our expectations.
You would sleep peacefully with an EV in your garage, if you have a death wish.😊
Why would you put you family into a car that you wouldn't put into your garage?
Just to give an update on the topic.
Today 200 plus cars went up in a blaze in a warehouse near Lisbon International Airport. Just another EV pooping it's electrons and sharing it's love all around. The cloud of the burning cars covered almost the entire city for hours. Lets just save the environment one big fire at the time.
The Electric Viking made mention of ev fires but palmed off any concern by comparing the number of ev fires against the numerically greater ice fires while neglecting the massive difference in damage between the two.
Electric Viking is an evangelist, doesn’t believe in facts, also believes that Santa and the Easter bunny are real.
I have ripped the EV a few new ones on some of his inexcusably daft comments. Never get a coherent reply. Don't bother listening to the Elon Musk fanboy anymore.
If 1% of the car market is responsible for 2% of the fires then, yes there are more fires from the rest, shame that the number of fires per 1000 of a type brings that reality into view. ( less than 1% of cars are EVs and, if we leave out cars in "war zones" or criminal actions, more than 2% of the fires are EVs. All the burnt out cars on the side of Australian highways are the result of Drop bear attacks ).
Did that guy even finish high school?
@@superwag634 did he get that far, or repeat 3rd grade 6 times? ( don't actually know who he is, don't care )
If there's a water circulation system attachedto the EV, a home owner could actually make hot water in their home from their EV..lol😂
EV's should have a Hazmat tin plaque on them like trucks carrying gas etc. So can see from a distance.
Thanks
I went into a major Australian hardware chain store today. Inside the building, but just outside the checkout area, next to the worker whose only job is to pretend to inspect your receipt carefully as you exit there was an an e-bike parked by one of the customers and my mind flashed back to the e-bike elevator fire video as I walked past it.
Logan hospital multi level carpark. Level 3 in public thoroughfare are EV chargers amongst normal cars. I pointed this out and they didn't comprehend there was an issue. I wait the day this carpark is levelled by fire.
According to MSB data, there are nearly 611,000 EVs and hybrids in Sweden as of 2022. With an average of 16 EV and hybrid fires per year, there's a 1 in 38,000 chance of fire. There are a total of roughly 4.4 million gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles in Sweden, with an average of 3,384 fires per year, for a 1 in 1,300 chance of fire. That means gas- and diesel-powered passenger vehicles are 29 times more likely to catch fire than EVs and hybrids.
@@Seventh7Artbut you can see from the Korean event, one EV can destroy 140 other cars(and possibly the building structurally) so there is that distinction. Also EVs are relatively new, so what is the likely hood of a fire in a 15 to 20 year old EV compared with an ice of the same age. The numbers of existing EVs of that age is going to be miniscule. So the stats will not tell you an accurate story until a large cohort of old EVs exist. When they exist, Then you can compare like with like
@@Seventh7Art Assuming these fact are correct, what it doesnt say is how the fires occurred, nor the result, nor the difficulty of putting them out, nor how many other cars caught fire, nor how many ppl were evacuated from their homes.
I have been driving for 51 years and only ever seen 1 car on fire. I have definitely seen more 1300 cars per year, so why am I not seeing ICE cars on fire? If something smells like BS, I'd suggest it probably is.
Any of those ICE cars are something like 60x more likely to catch fire than the EVs.
@@Seventh7Art And EVs are a much younger fleet, burn at incredibly higher temperatures than petrol/diesel fires, cannot be put out by sprinkler systems or first response options, and go up very fast with much more significant consequences.
I'm in Singapore on holiday, visited the enormous Vivo shopping centre down at the port today. There's two new "Zeeker" EVs on display right in the centre of the shopping centre, ground floor. One of the "Zeekers" is on charge as we are looking them over. I thought "this could be interesting if this battery fires up amidst these large crowds of people". Not guaranteed, but why unnecessarily increase risk to the public by charging the cars whilst they're on display. I've seen a lot of ICE vehicles similarly displayed at shopping centres over many years and never sensed any danger.
Net Zero safety?
As a volunteer fire fighter in rural Victoria, we had a meeting about a month and a half ago going over battery basics covering everything from tool batteries, house batteries and EV's. The best approach that we were told that we could immediately apply is asset protection around the fire and approach with the wind blowing the smoke away from us and to use pressure of the pumps to do the work since getting close at all is just not worth the risk certainly without BA. The point on that as well being a small rural brigade you might have maybe 2 or 3 BA certified members IF they are around when called and backup from other brigades are 30 mins at best away from you.
Shame about the batteries in those torches, what an inconvenient truth.
I wonder if the pollies will pass a laws against their own negligence and the liabilities they ignore.
They are happy to make our country a nanny state in every other respect.
On a island across the channel from France with the initials u and k there was an ioniq 5 inferno, many locals posted the images on social media and sending it to local media channels and every single time any post went up it was as quickly removed, it was like a game of cat and mouse and even the local rag didn't report it??? Supression of utopia
i remember when the introduction of the BOEING 787 jumbo, was delayed by onboard lithium battery thermal runaway fires,
Keep up the great work and speak truth to idiots.
The silence by the fire brigades on this is quite telling.
As soon as I seen this latest fire online, I immediately thought "I can't wait for JC to get a hold of this!"
"I seen"???
@@AutoExpertJCTouche!
It's a West Australian thing 😂
@@AutoExpertJC
I am West Aussie as well, and I can confirm docbob is Correct ( here )
@AutoExpertJC Give up the grammatical campaign, John, it's not worth it. Never helped by auto-type antics or indeed antic's.
@@philhealey4443
Nah Negative young Fill, try harder please Son.
Its bluddy Funny eh ! ( and i also am a grammar-nazi thus i concur with John )
Get it Correct first-time !
0:05 - I'd like to see Acker Dacker in a concert at Chonga Donga.
Love your exquisite take and use of our language. I can stop ev battery run away for next to nothing.
Happy to share.
Thank you for continuing to highlight these significant issues.
Underground electric mining equipment is equipped with fire suppression systems. Good for non-battery fires. I've seen a picture a few months ago (can't find it right now) where an electric excavator had a port for a fire hose to be connected to pump water straight into the engine bay. Not sure they plumb it to the batter cells. My point is that it really is the easy part of the engineering question.
Mining equipment fire suppression (this term is used exactly) systems have only one purpose. It is to knock the fire intensity down so that the operator can safely exit the vehicle. If a tyred vehicle is not consumed in the fire then it is left isolated and monitored from a distance for a day to protect people from the risk of a tyre explosion.
No. 6 keeps stealing your pens? You should try living with my No.1, and keep a pair of scissors..... Good luck with that !
Because it’s so much easier to force implementation of ADAS than to require safety systems that actually work.
I miss Cleatus Van Damme 🎉
Meanwhile, back at the opera house underground car park.
What's going to happen in a few years when we get stockpiles of these ev's when insurance companies write these things off with relatively minor damage due to repair costs.
Also, no one is recycling EV batteries.
In that green political utopia those spent batteries would be carted off to a shiny new recycling plant to be dismantled for their valuable materials, the reality, at least here in Britain is that there's precisely no facilities, either planned or under construction.
@@monteceitomoocher
CSIRO wrote a great paper on the state of battery recycling.
Unlike lead-acid batteries, which have s recycling rate of 95% , only around 5-10% of lithium ion batteries (LIBs) are recycled.
And 80% of those are batteries from small consumer devices.
They also said that the cost Of recycling is 2-3 times greater than the value of the reclaimed materials.
(Also, apropos to safety- there are serious issues in transporting, dissembling and recycling batteries).
You can google for the PDF.
@@ChrisWells1 thanks for that, as i understand matters, damaged faulty or spent car batteries are supposed to be returned to the appropriate manufacturer, which in our case would be carefully storing them then shipping them out of the country to the manufacturer's own facilities, all of which presents an array of safety hazards and danger to life along the way, politicians don't seem to understand how this stuff works, they think issuing a few directives and goals is all they have to do, and somehow all of the infrastructure and support systems will organically fall into place, this stuff needs clear direction and planning, and decades to create, it ain't going to happen by 2030, if ever.
@@monteceitomoocher
As @AutoExpertJC may agree - manufacturers need to have an obligation to accept cars back for recycling at the end of their life, regardless of defect, accident or warranty status, to stop the inevitable environmental disaster.
Fire compliant bays might be a benefit to all types of cars. Wouldn't hurt to space em out a little. Might help door dings too :P
John!!!! Why no love for the Olight Perun 2 in your reviews?? I own one of nearly every model in their range over the last few years & my 6 staff and I use the Perun 2 on a daily basis doing electrical work. Angled torch clips onto your pocket or hat for hands free work in front of you. The magnetic base sticks onto switchboards and ceiling grids and faces the right way for working. The design is genius!! And then there is the head strap option. The Perun 2 needs a much bigger shout out please. Thanks for doing what you do!!!
The original report on this incident that I watched on a TH-cam channel StachD, who is an American Firefighter, reported that the dudes wearing the face nappies were building security staff.
It would be expected that the attending Fire Fighters should have evacuated such personnel/public from the area as their first concern?
StachD deserves sooo many more subscribers. All facts, practical applications, no BS. Check him out.
Whilst I get part of your argument, I would argue that front deflegation port and front charging port… doors open creating a shield to exit behind … you could ad a rear inward only port to flood the battery with chilled salty water
If the car caught fire whilst driving the driver would see the fire or off gassing …
Power could fail so electronic locks and laminated side windows are not a good idea.
Fire Brigades are re-active rather than pro-active and normally have to be forced into doing something. And even then, it's generally a box ticking exercise. Look at Victoria, they still have a jab mandate for firefighters (only firefighters in Australia still mandated) but haven't required a booster since March 2022. Even ATAGI acknowledges that would mean you're unvaccinated yet they cling to the mandate anyway. Not to mention brigades are trialing/introducing EV fire trucks. That will be embarrassing if one of those enters thermal runaway and burns a station down.
The BIG Laugh of the EV Fire Truck is they have a BIG Diesel Engine to run everything when the battery goes Flat which is designed to give 1 Hour of Service, mmmm 10-30 minutes traveling to the fire, 5--30 minutes running Pumps.
99% of Fires take well over an hour to even get to the "under control" state.
@@YouShouldThink4Yourself That could be a good combination. I went to a bush fire with my uncle many decades ago and he mentioned that they didn't like diesel fire trucks because they don't work in a low oxygen environment. Right when your trying to run from or through a wall of flame the engine stalls.
Bloody Brilliant John! Charging Stations below ground is an accident waiting...Auckland Council Main Admin have them. Hate to think of the thousands of people working above...Council Vehicles (shared), many drivers, only takes one driver to damage underneath, not think anything of it, for the next occupants to risk their lives...as you say, its all waiting to unravel, Satin is looking on.
Every point you make is valid and I'm not sure why no action is being taken on this issue. Our office building in the city just installed 4 EV chargers in the underground carpark and get this, they picked the 4 bays right next to the lift. If an event like this happens in our building, are we talking about 12 floors being gassed?
I really do hope Insurance Companies catch onto this but I fear it won't happen until a few expensive buildings are structurally damaged beyond repaid.
Keep up the good work John. These videos are a great for public awareness!
I am sorrrry I can not give more thumbs UP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
My eyes are watering
My stomach is sore
Your phraseologies are incredible.
Do please keep it going .
The ensuring companies are now the only party who will make arguments against the EV powers...😒
"Ensuring"???
Once again John, you nailed it!
My workplace have a couple of hybrid Camrys and RAVs in the fleet. They’ve proven to be very reliable and efficient. Yet, as a precaution, I mentioned to the WHS team that it might be a good idea to park the hybrids in the open air carpark rather than the basement park in the unlikely event a battery dropped it’s bundle. Am I being a bit alarmist? I figure the hybrid batteries are significantly smaller than full EVs, but presumably the battery chemistry/tech is similar. BTW the WHS team dismissed it as a non issue. Hopefully they’re right.
Simple, create an ADR for a 38mm Storz fitting behind a dedicated flap for a plumbed battery flooding system for fire services to connect to
Perhaps fire water could be directed directly into the cabin of the car. Some goldfish to act as canaries might be an optional extra.
Thank you
A great presentation, well thought out and clarified better than butter.🏴🇬🇧👍👍👍😎😎
Thank you for your attention to this John. I'm a volunteer firefighter and this is something that is considered in the service. In my brigade we have it as a given that if there are people with SCBA quals at a car fire then they should don BA and fight the fire like that. Here is a weakness though, the truck seats six, we have 2 BA sets. The reason being that a firetruck is a bit of a hardware store, it has to have gear to cover everything. Other same size trucks with the same crew will have 4BA sets, different set up on those trucks and that is only because that was the answer decided on when juggling all the demands. So if an electric car fire is the job with any luck we are able to park upwind get the BA crew to get onto it and elevate the job so other trucks attend, although if the emergency call was for a car on fire there would be two trucks minimum sent. So it would be chancy for firefighters and they would be fighting it in PPE gold which was in the video, standard stuff that is great for heat protection but chemicals I couldn't say. Rules are to get it bagged up in a hazard bag after a job and off to the cleaners, so we could handle it successfully but as you say the risks are significant with this stuff.
I just retrieved my Bosch rechargeable sander from the garage, in preparation for a little DIY job. I haven’t used it for around four years, maybe more. Slapping the battery into it’s charger, I was surprised to see it was still fully charged. “Nah.” says I. “Can’t be true.” So I left it on there to see if it was just slow to switch into charge mode.
Well I never. It was indeed still holding charge.
Repeat after me. They don’t make ’em like they used to. Maybe more accurately we should say, they don’t make ’em WHERE they used to.
just wait until we have more older EVs, with similar issues that you might find in older gas/diesel vehicles that are usually the once catching fire, rarely does a new ICE vehicle catch fire, but new EVs does
Valid point.
I wonder if the fireworks will grow exponentially?
They will if they are parked together
One would think that a spot could be universally found to put a port somewhere on every electric car that had an internal pipe runn8ng straight to the battery compartment that fire fighters could easily pop open and aim there high preasured large hoses at to channel water directly as quick as possible to the battery. A more technical way would be to have that port pop open on the battery management system, detecting the start of the thermal run away.
John, this car might still get an ANCAP 5-star rating, even though they don't assess fire risks that could burn down buildings, turn into a BBQ, or smoke-suffocate a person!
Would you pick a Korean scientist over a break dancing Australian professor?
Is the Aussie a hottie?
@@AutoExpertJC not to me
Or an ignorant YT troll?
@@AutoExpertJC No.
Last year I saw a YT of a guy who invented a device to put EV battery fires out. Basically it was a powered spike/drill on the end of a steel tube attached to a fire hose. The operator stood back holding the tube and pushed the end into the car floor. The large drill bit then penetrated the battery box and then high power water was injected to flood the interior of the battery rapidly. That worked really well in the demo. I wonder why this wasn't adopted by Fire Services as it seemed to be a very promising solution to EV fires.
All manufacturers should add water ports that are directly linked to the cell packs so that the fire service can couple on the water hose to flood the areas. These could be easily accessible.
How do they connect their hoses when the fire is burning at 1000 centigrade?
@@kirstenferreira3008 if the fire has gone that far and the whole car is engulfed then it’s too late. If it can be caught sooner it could slow the whole thermal runaway process.
@@cnewto12 once thermal runaway is reached its merely seconds before the entire car is engulfed and starts spreading to anything flammable around it! Possibly water cooling could be incorporated in the cooling process during charging but this would be cost prohibitive.
My big concern is that the older these batteries get the more unstable they become and if they’re in an underground parking area it could quite easily be acatastrophic event !
Loved the KIA EV advert during this report!
Olight does indeed make amazing quality products. I have several and have not been disappointed in any way. Great stuff!
As a firefighter the thing I find odd is the identification for an EV var is a blue sticker on the number plate. Most car fires I go to the number plates are usually already melted and definitely the sticker will be gone! It needs a metal badge in a standard spot on say the roof, not a plastic sticker.
My thumb is wearing out from continually being raised to the "Thumbs-up" position whilst watching your videos.
Superb coshing/lashing of EV industry, fire safety industry, politicians any others in range.
Talking about Mercedes having a tame cheapo Chinese EV battery supplier, Bosch are doing the same with Domestic Appliances.
I just had the power supply in the base unit of one of these variable output temperature kettles melt and burn through the 3 Kw power supply leads to the element. Part of the reason it happened was that Bosch had allowed tbe power supply board manufacturer to dispense with a dedicated surface mounted connector for the output power leads to the element and had instead permitted the manufacturer to solder a male lucar connector directly into the power board.
This method was essentially Fred Carnos Circus/split-arse, but did work, as long as the solder didn't get too warm.
But if the kettle over-boiled for even a minute more than its proper cut-off time, with 3 Kw going through it the solder melted, the lucar connector detached from the power board and sparking followed, sufficient to melt surrounding wiring and parts of the plastic case. Whilst the lucar connector was undamaged i. e. it was"Man_enough" to take 3Kw running through it for exfended periods, the solder joint wasn't.
This defect had been progressively developing, silently and smokelessly, for 18 months before it failed completely.. within the two year guarentee period.
And the reason the kettle occasionally over-boiled, even when full of water was that deposits from calcium, in solution in the "Hard" local water supply, had formed an enveloping depoisit over the temperature sensor probe in the watertank, causing it to read the temperature incorrectly. But although, the kettle was over-boiling, the element base wasn't getting sufficiently hot to trigger the bi-metallic over-boil protection discs adjacent to the element. So, the power wasn't cut-off. Circuit design error ?
Lots of photos oc the internal points of failure accompanied the complaint to the CEOs of Bosch UK and the domestic appliance division in Germany.
And I was issued with a new replacment... so I am keeping a close watch on that.
I noted that the kettle didn't have the imprime of the British "Kite" mark for Electrical Safety anywhere on tbe casing ! Suprise.!
Bosch told me that the defective kettle had been sent back to the factory for further investigation, but a month on and I have heard nothing more so I presume it went into the electronic trash wheelie-bin in the car park of the official repair agents
Sh*t poor, but all the kit from China seems to be manufactured to this lower standard, even though importing European manufacturers/suppliers are content to stick their brand on these things. IMHO this is a type of fraud !
Eyes peeled for the Chinese branded EVs. 😮
Once these EVs start aging, that will be interesting.
About 80% of ICE fires due to age (10+ years old cars).
Funny thing is that car manufacturers are required by law to have containment measures for their battery storage warehouses. When working for a "winged" car manufacturer in UK, I remember that, when we started playing with batteries, we were mandated to install these humoungous metal coffins full of sand in the designated warehouse but also alone the route from storage to line side location
@Auto Expert, I enjoy your videos. I am an Electrical Engineer and years ago when the shift from Nickel-Metal Hydride to Lithium Ion batteries became prolific (for obvious energy density reasons) I was horrified, knowing the safety downsides of these bombs waiting to go off. I have watched your videos with interest and completely agree with your assessment of Lithium batteries and share your safety concerns. EV batteries, combining lots of small potential problems into one or two massive problems is, well, massively problematic.
I have researched "inert liquids" which several companies are developing for "immersive cooling" of Lithium and other chemistry batteries. Such liquids provide cooling for the batteries, so they are more easily kept within a safe and operationally efficient temperature range, but the liquids also provide a flame retardant or at least resist the nature of the self-propelled runaway catastrophic shit shows we commonly see now. Such developments make me more optimistic about Lithium Ion/Lithium Polymer/NickelCobalt etc batteries and their safe use in large installations.
I am interested to know if you have heard of these developments and your thoughts on them.
If you have a degassing port at the back you could put a firehose connection at the front of the battery pack. Get 100% of the cooling straight on the cells.
I was thinking about how to mitigate EV fires at the start of the clip and imagining fire stop walls between the cars in much the same way there are walls between transformers in many electricity substations where space to separate them isn't available. It'd knock the parking density way down but at least the whole place wouldn't turn into an inferno.
Longer range = more battery density, or more batteries. Either one equals more fuel for the runaway fire.
There's a hard limit to range based on energy density because of the energy needed to haul the battery around. A dead battery and full battery weigh the same so once it's got 10% left, it still weighs as much as a whole gasoline car for the battery alone. This means that a battery technology with lower energy density can never go as far as one with more energy per unit weight, there is a point where the amount of extra battery weight needed to go just one more kilometer or mile goes up an exponential climb where the maximum theoretical range cannot go past. For lead acid, it's rather modest, just enough for daily commutes and not much more, for NiMH it's more but not impressive, you could use it and be fine most of the time... also they can safely charge faster than lead acid while surviving more charge cycles and lack the acid so there's that. Lithium ion ranges in energy density from around or below NiMH for the more long lived LFP cells, and like double that of NiMH for the less stable Lithium cobalt oxide, just a bit less for Lithium manganese cobalt cells like tool batteries and EV batteries... so Lithium ion cars can go about as far as Tesla says (at least on paper in perfect conditions), or considerably less if they use more stable chemistries. After you get the ranges Tesla boasts about, the added weight of the battery exponentially increases so fast that you literally cannot go farther. And for gas/diesel... the range limit is a LOT higher... more than any car sold ever has a fuel tank for... think absolutely stupid distances if you tow a trailer full of fuel like a fuel truck does.
That is why they use more unstable chemistries, the absolute physical limit to an LFP battery car is considerably lower than that of Lithium Manganese cobalt Lithium ion... they're both lithium ion, they just have different electrodes with very different energy densities. An LFP car would have range in the neighborhood of a NiMH car and we don't use NiMH because it would not be possible to make one go as far on a charge as people want to see in the spec sheets... though NiMH would be less dangerous and could survive constant slow overcharge and a TON of charge cycles without a sweat... but lower run times means people want the fiery and sexy lithium ion variants with the extra energy density. Too bad because NiMH also handles extreme heat and cold like a champ. Had several Lithium ion gizmos just fail at around freezing, and a few that sort of work to -20C... not one that can work at full rated power at -35C like my cheap rechargeable NiMH cells. NiMH is not perfect though, it is usually less charge efficient and rather heavy, plus, because it's so stable and electrically similar enough to NiCd that NiMH gadgets tend to lack advanced charge controllers that would be mandatory in Lithium Ion gadgets, hence they take damage from undercharge or a fast overcharge (faster than they are able to dissipate via their catalyst) and they lose capacity... but you put an undercharge protection on them and they just wont die.
The only safe battery is going to be one in which one or more individual cells can thermally runaway without setting off their neighbours. That would mean gaps between cells, ventilation channels to take heat away and possibly thermal dividing barriers as well. Result would be a much lower energy density/volume ratio which equals less storage capacity/range in the real world.
Just by placing a quick connections, the car could have circulating water chilling the battery as it charges. And the water could be monitored for any temperature spikes. I already have an idea for a patent.
I am an incident Responder and we have done a EV course and it's interesting that I have spoken to a lot of first responders and they haven't been trained in EV fires.
They should vent the batteries into the passenger compartment in order to let the EVangelists experience first hand the problem they have brought onto the world.
An ethical dilemma. Cruel solution, but on balance- fair. Solely vented to the driver’s seat, of course. Children and other passengers are … just passengers in the owners ev pilgrimage.
18:25 One has to wonder if the cooling system might not be more effective if it was situated _above_ the batteries, where the heat will naturally want to go. Heat rises, sort of thing. You may lose a little help for the cooling system as it's further from the air flow, but it places the batteries themselves nearer said airflow, so that sounds like a zero-sum game. And access for fire fighters would be at least improved - especially once the flames burn through the lower cover, which likely doesn't take all that long, what with one thing and another. Thoughts?
I believe they are supplying those nozzles to the fire brigade in the UK along with a few 'special chemicals', however I don't know how effective these are.
Having astandard inlet port for fire suppression and exhaust port would mean cars could be connected to a system while parked.
If a torch catches fire I guess at least you could shed some light on the situation ,, I want one ,,For mothers day ,, honest 🙂
EvFireSafe is an interesting read.
I work in the food industry, the first thing we tell clients: safe food first, after that do what you will. In the food industry the regulators and prosecutors will look for deficiencies in approached to food safety and that will typically be the basis for the severity of legal retribution. Safety First.
You should change the name of your channel to the EV Fire Notification Channel.
What are the safety standards & measures that are in place for Aust purchased ev's?
Maybe EV designers need to incorporate a standardised emergency battery box water injection port - something along the lines of a high volume capable pipe hooked up to the charger station infrastructure during charge. Arrange automatic battery flushing when problems occur - venting through a specific exit port as you propose.
Funny how the media here in Denmark avoid reporting about any EV fires at all except from a smaller Tesla fire that didn't bring much known drama
John,
I have had this same thought about having a water connection that feeds straight to the battery ever since you showed us the mining machine that was battery powered that also had this.
My thought is it should be next to the charge plug so it's easy to find for the fire fighters to find. If it is the same connection as the quick connectors the fire service use on their hoses it would make it even easier to pump a large amount of water into the battery very quickly.
My 2 cents (+ gst) worth.
"Little - Lucifer" battery rating, John you are so naughty, and I like it.
Just mandate battery chemistry to be LFP. Watch how quickly they sort out the lack of energy density.
Can't change physics.
Sorry.
@@sahhull LFP batteries are getting better all the time.
LFP trades energy density and power output rate for safety and longevity. They're a little like NiMH with potentially thousands of cycles, decent but not great power output (NiMH sometimes is rather good for this depending on if they're Low Self Discharge or not), but due to physics and chemistry, like NiMH, LFP has a lower theoretical maximum energy density in the materials that store the energy... not including things like the physical structure that holds the cell together or the bus-bars. LFP would last a VERY long time as long as it's not overcharged (NiMH can tolerate constant slow overcharge by venting excess energy as heat via a catalyst), but like NiMH they cannot EVER make and EV with LFP batteries because it would not be able to drive far enough before the physical hard limit on the range is an issue. No technological changes will fix this, this is physics and chemistry, only a different battery technology would fix this... and LFP still burn badly if they catch fire, they're just less prone to randomly exploding.
Even lead acid batteries are dangerous at scale, had a friend with some lead acid batteries to power an RV (so smaller than an EV battery, just used for lights and appliances), when charging, lead acid batteries - even in good condition - make some hydrogen gas, if they are charged faster than they feel like absorbing, or of anything goes wrong, they make LOTS of hydrogen from the charger current... which collects in high places like Helium and BANG!!! no more RV. Batteries are dangerous because unlike liquid fuels like gasoline or diesel, they have both sides of the REDOX reaction in one canister or pouch, that is both oxidizer and reducer are present and react as electricity flows through the circuit doing work... Oxidizers are named after oxygen because that is the most common oxidizer (seeing as we breathe it to oxidize sugar and power our bodies). In order for gasoline to burn, it has to mix with oxygen which requires it to evaporate and mix before it can burn, this allows it to be safely stored as long as it isn't allowed to be sprayed out via an atomizer (like a spray nozzle) and mix with air all at once. In a pool of liquid, gasoline is safe(ish)... it can't explode unless the vapors are trapped and allowed to mix with lots of air... and then just those vapors are what burn fast. Gasoline in a puddle can only burn as fast as it can boil and mix with air which is fast but not explosion fast. Batteries would be like if you had gasoline and a liquid oxidizer in the same canister... VERY BAD mix of chemicals. Gasoline despite having orders of magnitude more energy per gram is safer per gram than batteries for this reason, it needs to mix with air to burn.
LTO is my choice. Those things are the honey badger of lithium cell chemistry.
360 degrees of Gooooooooooooood moooooooooooooooorning Vietnam.
I know of apartment blocks in Scandinavia where charging is prohibited in the carpark
I would like to highlight the Golburn St carpark in Sydney CBD. There is priority parking for EV's on the ground floor just past the entrance and if one of those vehicles were to go into thermal runaway the potential consequenses are dire as the structure is built over the railway between Town Hall station and Central. Not only would evacuation be compromised but the potential to shut down the rail network also a major risk. If the concrete and steel structure was compromised this could mean a shut down of the rail network in that area for months.