DO NOT Sum Your Stereo Rig to Mono! (do this instead)
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- ⚠️ High Quality Audio Alert ⚠️ Headphones Recommended! Go to 08:25 for the sound clips!
Today, I am going to show you why you DON'T want to sum your stereo guitar signal to mono. I'll walk you through exactly what it means to sum your stereo signal, and ways you can get a mono signal out of your stereo rigs, without wrecking your tone!
What differences did you hear in the playing examples? Let us know in the comments below!
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CONTRIBUTORS:
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Justin Derrico - Audio Clips/Guitar
#DIYPedalboard #RigDoctor #MonoSum
*High Quality Audio Alert! Headphones Recommended!* Skip to 08:25 for the sound comparisons! Today, I am going to show you why you DON'T want to sum your stereo guitar signal to mono. I'll walk you through exactly what it means to sum your stereo signal, and ways you can get a mono signal out of your stereo rigs, without wrecking your tone! Let us know what you think in the comments!
Sometimes I don't wanna bring along two Powercab 112 Plus, I'm plugging left on the first input and right on the second input of the PC112+, I'm hearing both left and right on a mono fashion, or maybe I'm under a placebo effect? lol. Am I doing the right thing?
shots fired @jhs
@@patrickrobinson1935 no shots fired, would apply to any sum box, JHS or otherwise.
@@VertexEffectsInc yes I have been considering running rig in stereo only to discover most stereo pedals aren't TRUE stereo anyway unless they have dual effects engines
You taught me a great lesson today. NEVER USE ANOTHER JHS PRODUCT. LOL no but really, this was an amazing breakdown. The mono sounded better than the summed signal.
Can’t believe I’m just finding this video…. Could have saved me so much trial and error. Underrated - awesome comparison. Thanks!
This is amazing information!!! I am a first time pedalboard user setting my first pedalboard after running Rack Mount multi-effects processor units for over 30 years and I am now hooked on pedals!! My wife is rolling her eyes watching me react to the sound demonstration in this video... I LOVE IT!! THANK YOU!!!
Glad it was helpful! Thank for watching Mark!
Finally! I was waiting for this topic! Thanks Rig Doctor! ;)
Yes!!!
Some of you won’t believe it but this video combined with a little more research sold me on a JHS summing amp as a practical, second best option for my stereo rig
If you like the sound, go for it
@@VertexEffectsInc it works well enough as a less than perfect option for playing things that will eventually be put in stereo. I keep the box on a practice amp, not the pedal board. Still very much appreciated the knowledge you shared in this video!
Really interesting, and amazingly clear examples! Learned a lot, Thank you!
Jens, Mason tends to have a knack for that. 😉
Glad it was helpful!
Thanks Adam!
The idea of hard panning a stereo signal path to only one side to convert it to mono is great! Never thought of it. Also, excelent info on this video, fhanks.
For sure, it's definitely the move! Even not doing the hard pan for pedals that don't have that option still is often better sounding that summing.
I’ve almost always ran a mono live rig until getting the HX Stomp last year. Now I’m running stereo “amps” almost all the time and have considered a summing box for times when I can’t have two inputs at the sound board. The HX Stomp outputs in either Mono or Stereo depending on what is plugged in the outputs when you power it up. So I’ve just done this power up trick a couple times to run it in mono but kind of felt I was missing out and was planning to get a summing box in the near future.
So the timing on this video was excellent, and very informative. It’s nice to know I don’t need another pedal for once. 🤣
Glad you found it helpful!
Your the one I can trust to give the highest level of knowledge for anything that's pedal or pedalboard related.
I was about to buy the "Walrus Audio Canvas Mono Line Isolator D.I.", that has the summing to mono feature, but after hearing and seeing this video explanation, I'm going for the Canvas stereo model instead. It's so appreciated, thank you.
I was looking into mono summing the last few days because I decided not to take the full rig to most places when we can go out again. When I did this in the past I pulled every „right“ in and out on all of my stereo pedals to go mono and plugged them back in when back home. I need to check if the last pedal in my chain can pan but anyway guess I‘ll just be using the Left/mono out from now on. Thank you for this great video!
Thanks for watching!
Thanks for using your platform to make this PSA. Feel like anyone with ears and a brain should be able to hear the difference on their own.
Yes indeed!
Nice video. I will compare the sounds with my solution. This is what i was doing to get mono sounds:
1. Disconect the R output of the chorus.
2. In the eventide h9, general settings, select pre/post routing (pre is left)
3. The switcher musicomlab EFX LE, in utilities theres is an option to select loop 5 & 6 in mono or stereo return and loop 6 mono send. I change all to mono.
Hector, 1) that would work, but we're presuming here, like most people that are running a stereo rig, that they don't want to disconnect their pedals each time they run mono versus stereo - this will help solve the polarity/phase issue, but still not resolve the overall issue of the mono sum. 2) If you're still connected with stereo in and out on the H9 the pre/post won't help you and will just mess up the signal path and turn your input B/output B into an effects loop. 3) Yes, but this is still the same issue of a mono summing box, you're doing the sum with outboard gear not native to the stereo pedal - same problem as shown in the video - it's still a mix bus summing amp.
I run my Boss DD-20 in parallel by "jumping" output 1 into input 2. It really opens up the delay and all I need is an extra patch cable since I don't have access to the software. Great info, love the video.
not parralel..
Thanks for sharing!
After watching this I'm going to have to somehow wire my pedalboard either for mono or stereo use when I record.
I usually just go direct in and use an amp sim or external unit. Playing in bands for over twenty years, I've always always run a mono board for band gigs. Stereo sounds great if you can get away with it but usually unless there's a sound guy for the PA it's too much work. There are still lots of small clubs that don't even have PAs for use. Informative video, thanks.
Glad you dug the video Ron!
I have a whole pedal board going into a line6 hx one (mono left) then out in stereo into 2 seperate amps. No humming, no phase switching.
This is the opinion of a giging musician for over 20 years in goa and the world. Thanks for spreading the wise. Commenting through my wife's account BTW
thanks for watching!
I really appreciate your clear explanations on what's going on in the signal chain, it really helps people who don't know that much (like me) to work towards getting the sound that I want so thank you! I learn something every time I watch one of your videos
Glad to help!
It just happens that I am using my rig the way you prescribed. But I didn't think too much about, it was just logical to me and sounded right. I haven't really even considered buying a summing device, and I was always a little bit unsure why anyone wants it or uses it. Now I get it. It is hard for people that have unprogramable stereo pedals to do it other way. My only issue was with my stereo delays so I created a copy of all of my presets without the 'ping pong' atribute, and than it all sounds right, it feels like the pedal (Echolution 2 deluxe by Pigtronix) sends the same signal trough both outputs when it has ping pong effect disabled.
Anyway, the difference you showed is very audible (although even trough sum box it sounds very decent) and I am intrigued. And the best news is-the solution is easy and free. This is not just another video ad that tells you that you need to buy a very special little magical device that will actually do the trick
...no, just experiment and get rid off sum device if you don't really need it.
Thank you for watching!
This makes total sense! Also I always noticed that my dry/wet mix ratio seemed to change when stereo summing with less effect heard in the mix. Tried just using the L output and that sounds much clearer while keeping the effect mix as intended! Thanks.
Great explanation! Doctor, you are right! Summing affects the tone quality! I 've been playing left out mostly, but sometimes I could run stereo and it was just like your description, especially the mix!
Glad it was helpful! Thanks for watching!
It'd be a huge help when you're doing these types of videos to have a section at the end where you go between the different setups with no breaks between so we can directly compare them to each other. Nice video!
Are the wav. files not in the description?
@@VertexEffectsInc I'm not seeing them. Where are they linked? Thanks!
@@brianspaid8986 I'll double check it, I think they were posted on there so you could listen on soundcloud yourself.
@@VertexEffectsInc Ah, got it. Thanks. Appreciate it!
@@brianspaid8986 Sure thing!
Dude those long helping hands in the back is a stellar idea! I have shitloads of those air directors
Yes indeed!
Super helpful! So glad I watched this before pulling the trigger on a summing box.
Glad it was helpful!
This is great. Think I might have inspired this one after asking about a summing mod on the DIY buffer video, to which Mason was kind enough to respond then-and in even more detail now.
Ive been putting the final touches on a fully hand-wired board the last six months and I began feeling really guilty about not fully utilizing my big-box Strymons in stereo. They do sound amazing, but dragging two amps to the kinds of places I generally get to play isn’t practical. No matter how great the board is, it’s going to be in mono 98% of the time.
Will probably program mono and stereo presets on my midi switcher one day, but I think this board will still be mono when (if?) it has an opportunity to debut.
We've had a lot of requests for this over the years. Wanted to show some examples and some easy work-arounds. There can be a place for a mono sum, I just don't prefer it, sonically, to doing it the way I demo'd in the video. There may be some cases where you don't have the option to go into the software to adjust and maybe the mono sum might sound better than Left output only, but it's not been my experience.
Your videos are always helpful. Thanks for the knowledge. I was planning to set up a summing switch on my w/d/w pedalboard for when mono is my only option. Thanks to this video, I've saved myself a lot of trial and error.
Good stuff! I wish you'd also demoed the summing of a wet-dry rig. That's where I see the value of summing boxes like the JHS.
I don't think you'll hear much benefit, same as the stereo rig to the mono rig summed.
What I find amusing about this "STEREO" problem is that the guitar was never stereo to begin with. I understand the idea and I think that it's a great goal. I will eventually be using my guitar as a stereo instrument. "STEREO" is what you make of it. I will probably be using 2 totally different type of amps and use mikes for recording. Make your use totally creative and print the words "NOW IN STEREO" on your album jacket!
.... sorry but I respectfully disagree. Back in the day the Gibson es345 was specifically designed to push a stereo signal through a Gibson stereo amp. That was when the "big boys" predicted everything was going hi-fi / stereo - it never caught on.
Thanks for the very useful video. Helped me deal with issues getting outputs from a range of stereo devices into my mainly single channel mixer.
You're welcome!
I'm glad I found this video. I've been experimenting with the JHS Summing Amp pedal on my bass rig and it just didn't sound right. I couldn't figure it out. What you described is what I have been hearing. And I can still return the JHS pedal so thank you for the info.
For some things it might be helpful, and it doesn't have anything to do with his product, just summing externally will have this issue generally.
I’m custom building an EVH pedal switch with 2 stereo on the left and 4 mono on the right. 2 separate inputs, one dry channel input output and one stereo input output for the wet side. Basically 2 boxes in one enclosure. For the wet side or stereo side I will have TSR jacks for send and return with 4pdt switch and for dry side I will use TS jacks with 3pdt switches. LED’s, all bypass when not activated. Also one master switch on dry input and one master switch on stereo input. I can forgo the master input switches. The stereo side will be labeled as Cathedral (for the boss sde3000 EVH delay) and DDLS for the Eventide micro pitch delay. The output on stereo side will go to an interface box to connect the pedal snake. I think I can make an led work on the 4pdt switch. The output jacks mono will have a resistor between the lugs but I’m not sure if I can do that for the stereo output jacks. Might have to run 2 resistors??? Does this sound right?
Nice Video! this is actually my problem. I have Timeline and Bigsky at the end of my chain and because of home recording I was able to wire it in stereo then plug into audio interface in stereo. When going on live sessions I use only 1 amp and I have to remove all the stereo connection from Timeline to Bigsky because if I don't it will only give me half sound to the amp. Its a hassle pulling out pedals and patches.
Glad I could help!
I mostly used 2 amps for stereo But I have a Fender Princeton chorus which happens to have a true stereo FX loop which also allows for drive pedals to be in fronts and modulation and delay through loop.Nice Video!!
What a great exposition of this somewhat complicated subject. Thank you! I still have questions about how stereo pedals can be accommodated on a board.
Thanks for watching
I first ran into this problem without even having a summing box... in a studio session, I tracked stereo (stereo wired pedalboard into two amps mic'd as a left and right channels). We had it panned hard in the control room and it sounded fantastic. But the mix engineer wanted some parts not hard panned, but placed within the stereo field. When he did this, the reverbs and delays from my board seemed to almost disappear. He then used DAW plugins to try to restore the original guitar sounds. So frustrating. I imagine this happens, to some degree, somewhere, in any room I run my stereo rig. I wish effects builders could figure out beautiful stereo algorithms that sum gracefully.
Ideally, if you're running any multi-amp set up you should still have a polarity switch for this reason, even if your rig is all in the proper polarity the amps often can be mis matched. You can do this with boxes like the Lehle P Split or you can get a speaker cable that inverts the polarity as an easy work around.
So confusing....polarity, phase....I don’t understand these aspects at all, either in the pedals, or two amps setup
@@Christbearer57 this topic would need a deep dive Rig Doctor! Also never thought boosts and the DS1 (?!?) inverted polarity??? Why do manufacturer do this and can this be an issue in a standard mono rig?
I used Goodwood audio output and that has 2 sum options, left only or combine L and R, plus phase and ground loop. Worked great for me when I used it
I think it's just one sum option and the other one is the left only as I suggest. The polarity switch won't be that valuable in mono, in particular if one of your pedals upstream inverts, but I don't think it's an active summing network is it? I don't think you can control the mix, it's just 50/50 L to R. Equally the ground lift isn't useful on the summed output or the mono (what they're calling split summed, but it's just mono) as you're only running a signal amp presumably? If you compare the summed stereo to the hard panned left mono as we did here - I think you'll hear the difference just like you did in the clips we compared here in real time.
@@VertexEffectsInc yes the polarity and ground lift are just for stereo.
It’s just nice to have the left only option as opposed to just 50 50 split. Great informative video. I love playing in stereo but only do it at home now haha. Carrying 2 amps isn’t fun lol
@@bjstickney I hear ya, thanks for watching!
@@bjstickney I hear ya!
Dude, I've been trying to figure this out for a while! Thanks!
Glad I could help!
Thanks! I've been thinking about summing (Timeline > Flint then into HX Stomp Stereo or single amp depending on where I'm playing) but this has shed light on a few of my questions.
I'm glad you found it helpful!
Didn't flint has stereo input tho.
I enjoy and learn so much from your video. Your wealth of knowledge is so useful to the pedal community. Thank you
Thanks for watching J Bert
I run stereo sometimes with two amps or two modelers. My HX Stomp for stereo delays and a Walrus Audio stereo programable reverb after that. I do use the Goodwood Audio interfacer for phase/ground correction when needed. But I found it actually easiest to just have a whole set of new presets that are mono. No summing or anything. Then I don’t even worry.
That's the best move, as I say in the video :)
This is interesting, because of the Stomp itself. Question: hook up a stereo pedal (lets say a SA Ventris or Nemesis) to the stomp using its stereo send and returns. No blocks added in the signal chain after the S/R block. All is fine and wide and cosy. What to do if one would record all this in mono? Do we pull the R plug from the SA pedal? Or do we have to change the S/R block also in the stomp? Hm... i guess This is a question that L6 folks should be able to answer. The manual doesnt touch on the subject though.
Most non-programmable stereo pedals do not do output summing if they have two inputs connected. TCE, Boss, Digitech, etc. are almost all like this. Make sure you test your last pedal in the chain to see if it's summing, or just passing L/R through separately. In my case, if I run a ping-pong delay, I just lose one of the delays. I use a small micro-mixer on my board for cases like that.
Thanks for watching Jeff and for your comment!
Thanks Doc,
Your vids and replies are really helpful and appreciated.
My pleasure!
Awesome content - very concise, very representative. I've been working through a front/loop switching setup that utilizes 2 amps, 2 cabs (live), or into 2 CaptorX for desk recording. I use simple FX up front (VP, wah, deja-vibe, boost), then this gets fed into a GCX8 with isolated loops for a variety of effects (all front end) with out being split (Lehle S-go-S). Where I'm experiencing some oddities is with the stereo TimeFactor & Reverb in the loops of both amps. Sounds great live, not so much when punched through the CaptorX's into the DAW. I find separating the channels into 2 mono per amp (L and R) sounds almost better than going with the I/O's default setting of Stereo. Frustrating. But this video may be the nugget I need to experiment with to get to where I need my stereo FX to land. Thank you!!
I liked and subscribed! This was very informative, and the sound quality was as good as the content. Great job with the sound clips and the discussion around the issue. I have some stereo-capable pedals and some mono pedals, so this hit home; it's like, what's the BEST way to run these into an amp -- or two amps (or two channels on an audio interface or mixer, in a live sound scenario).
Very Informative, Uncle Mason🙏🙏 Love the fact that you take time to reply all of the comments and questions no matter big or small😊 Great work as always
Try my best! Thanks for watching!
Top Notch, and very common sense, thanks for posting
Glad it was helpful!
Good stuff. Always learning something new from you!
Glad to help! Thank you for watching!
You are using the summing amp wrong. That unit is not designed to do sum stereo sources like a chorus but to sum parallel signals. It's a routing device not a mixer, Jee read the manual!
I didn't even know mono summing was a thing until I watched this video. If I'm running two amps, I have a second board that I connect to my stereo fx on my main board. If I'm running one amp, I just use the main board plugged in to the left channels. EZPZ. Why complicate?
I think some believe it will sound closer to the stereo sound, it just won't.
Summing boxes are great when used for solo boost and trails split with slap back on AB box. Helps with the trio lead drop off issue when returning back to rhythm and vice versa. The "trio trick" if you will.
Haven't heard this nor do I understand how you're suggesting this be ordered in the signal path.
"SO THAT WAS MY CASE" My Speakers were so loud to hear the differences then that took my head off lol
Thanks for this! Has been on my mind recently if L/mono out is best for my mono setup
You bet!
You always have great advice that makes sense! Thanks!!
good video! I have a question, if you are going to play live and you go to a table, I understand that it is better to put the effects in stereo on two channels, right?
This is gold 🙌🏻🎸
I'm so glad you dig it!
Interesting video...great information. I never setup a stereo rig for live playing...
certainly can make things diffiult.
Please make a video on how to make a proper stereo pedalboard for the beginners. Thank you
See our rig build videos playlist on our main TH-cam homepage, there are many :)
The best sound for me was with the sum to mono with the GHS pedal. I am listening to all sounds through my Denon AH-D2000 headphones which I use it for all my mixes. It never fails. The stereo image with the pedals in stereo is disappointing in some way (maybe it has to do with what you mentioned about the factory mix blends). The stereo setup with two amps is good, but to me I don't really feel the stereo "image" taking place. In other words, there is a difference of course but is not too big for me. Maybe tweaking a little bit more with parameters you could find a setup which the stereo image its more present. So my decision basically was "which setup sound better?". In the end, as a guitarist, that's what I'm looking for and I am surprised that the one I liked most was with the sum to mono. By the way I'm a fan of vertex and your work, congrats for all the videos and amazing knowledge you display for all of us musicians. You save our lives! :) Aloha!
cool
I just use a Roland JC 77. I run 2 channels at one which gives me stereo from one amp
I have a mono rig and I always use the mono out of my stereo pedals. These pedals are normally at the end of the chain. This way I’m simplifying the rig with less hops.
That makes it easy for sure! Thanks for watching!
Couldn't find anyone who asked this already in the comments: is using stereo breakout cables to connect multiple 2 output, 1 input pedals worth it? (Strymon Flint into Strymon Deco.) Or does this have the same effect as a sum box? Am I better off sticking with the Left output of the Flint into the Deco? (I could test this myself, but I haven't picked up the stereo breakout/splitter cables yet.) Thanks for your help and for this informative video!
The stereo input jack is the same as any stereo pedal with stereo inputs it's just using a single TRS jack instead of two TS jacks. Doesn't change anything about the recommendations here.
Great video! Very educational. I just don't understand why someone would go from stereo back to Mono. I'm weird that way.
I think the idea of what a "Sum" does is different than what it does in actuality.
It's really practical if you have your rig wired up for stereo and then all of a sudden you find a situation where you can only run mono. Rather than try to unplug cables between pedals, having something that can help you sum back to mono is handy. He gives some good suggestions here. I have used the Neunaber Immerse in the past (it is capable of taking in a stereo signal but only outputting mono) as well as the Strymon Iridium (which can do the same thing as the Immerse). It's handy having effects that can do this, rather than needing a separate box to sum.
@@imyourmutter for effects that are designed to be summed, it's fine - most aren't as you've probably seen.
Yea. Phase cancelation happens. It's not a huge deal from my experience though. I'm using a Goodwood interfacer to sum a DD-5, Deco, Timeline, H9, and Flint. The mono signal does have a slightly attenuated wet signal, but I'm not mad. I play mono most of the time, so I just push my effect level a bit more.
It will depend on the effects, modulation is where its most common. Why not just use the left output only, it’s less of a compromise than the sum.
5 years ago I advised my friends about some fx or drives the invert the signal and Will affect stereo fx, but they did not paid attention and told me that Is impossible that an expensive pedal has this problem... I thought That I was wrong, I was Right
Bam! There you go!
Bro you're the guitar tech equivalent of a brainsurgeon. Thanks.
I’m staring at the screen until it premieres. Practicing my patience.
💻👀⏳🕰
hahahahahah
I made it. Worth it Thx.
💻💀
@@18JR78 so glad you dig it
You're right...huge difference.
Yes! Don't wreck your stereo tone!!!
Never used or considered sum boxes but thanks I won't bother with it
Sorry I’m so late to reply. Thanks very much for the video! Super informative!! Wish the bigsky had hard panning capabilities
There are things you can do to manipulate this, but also just using the left only output will still get you better results and the SUM IMO.
@@VertexEffectsInc yeah I would like to do that. Do you know in the pbc6x, I have the bigsky in a stereo loop. If I tell that loop that it should be mono instead of stereo and just unplug the left side of the insert cable, would that technically work?
I guess tell both the send and return to be mono and unplug the left in and left out of each insert cable
Thanks for that topic! 👍
My pleasure! Thanks for watching!
You just saved me money. Thank you!
Glad I could help!
Hey Vertex! Thanks for the vid.
Question: my rig is currently running stereo delay into stereo reverb, out to two amps, out to FOH console with a dedicated channel for each amp. However, the mains are mono. So the summing is happening at the console. The nice wide stereo mix in my IEMs is great, but do you think it's problematic for what the crowd hears out of the mains? If so, what would be a better approach? Thanks for your time!
I don’t think there’s any reason to adjust your rig if the mixer is doing it, sort of out of your control at that point, you could of course experiment to see if just a straight mono mix into the input made any real sonic difference, but I highly doubt it, plus if you used it in any other application where you could go through stereo I don’t know that it would be worth disrupting your Pedalboard
High quality content, rare and relevant! Thanks
Thanks for watching! Glad you liked it!
Dude THANK YOU! What really frustrates me is that the manufacturers don't give you a mini toggle to internally disconnect the stereo output jack. I use a patch bay for my stereo (and dry) outputs and my cramped pedal board is not set up for physically connecting/disconnecting cables directly from the pedals. Do you think it would be simple enough to have someone modify my pedals with mini toggles? Is that something you would do?
I don't know of many manufacturers that do this with the toggles. Some pedals can be done easily others are more complicated regarding the stereo/mono toggle switch. A lot of the digital and DSP stuff is much more difficult.
Did not understand the part when he said that some other mono pedals like boosts or drives etc could invert the phase and lead to canceling. If they are prior to the stereo units and not between; there is no risk at all.
I outlined the primary danger being stereo modulation devices, primarily things like tremolo or chorus. Many folks will use boosts as a final gain stage for output or just before delay/reverb devices that invert the polarity. Not a common application admittedly, but worth noting.
I've actually seen this where guys at my church will use a EP Booster at the end of their chain as a buffer/boost end of the chain but leave it always on - and one channel is inverted and drove our FOH guy crazy for a month before we figured it out.
@@VertexEffectsInc would be great if you could go deeper on this specific topic since it’s the first time I hear it Mason! Thanks, nice video about something I’ve always asked myself
The Strymon BigLie excuse me. . . . *Cough* "BigSky" is actually a DUAL MONO pedal. Just try to run a ping-pong delay (an echo effect that bounces to the left then right) in front of the reverb pedal (the most commonly used signal path) and you will notice it will echo out of the L/R sides simultaniously.
Even worse:
I tried using the LEFT INs / OUTs for an FX loop on Amplifier 1, and the RIGHT INs / OUTs for a different FX loop on amp 2. The end result was the pre amps from each amp being mixed together and each FX return was Preamps (1+2) Left and Preamps (1+2) right. If you are crazy like me and want to use a STEREO reverb pedal this way, finding out it is summing to DUAL MONO makes it 100% not worth the $500.00. I have yet to try a Boss RV 500, but I hope it keeps the Left and Right inputs independant from eachother. I will buy one immediately if I can confirm it is actually a true stereo in and stereo out pedal - nomatter what it costs. If any of you think im full of it, please let me know lol. More than happy to have a conversation.
Really defeats the purpose of running stereo in the first place. I don’t see why someone would do this anyways outside a recording session.
Yes indeed!
This video was a huge eye opener for me Mason. Thank you! Gonna try and compare to see how bad it is in my rig 😅. I don’t have a pedal like the H9 that can intrinsically pan like you did, but I was just curious as to how panning everything left is different than summing to mono. It sounded better and totally different, but it seemed like the signal was summed within the H9 via panning everything left. I may not be aware enough to really know what’s going on, but I’d figured I ask haha
Also, in stereo, my chorus pedal leaves the L dry and the R vibrato. So together it’s the lush chorus sound, but if I only wen L it would sound dry and if I only went R it would just be vibrato. In this case would the only option be unplugging the cables?
If you can't pan it internally to hard left for the mono stuff, yes, unplugging it or putting a toggle to short the R output jack would be the only way.
Mason - Can you tell us again the magic combo of dual lock tape(s) for pedalboards? I’ve heard you say it before, but didn’t write it down.
Pedal side: SJ3550
Board side: SJ3551
TotalEVO7 got it for you! It's also linked in the description of almost every video we've ever put out.
@@TotalEvo7 Thank you!! Have you used this combo and what are your thoughts? Swapping out all of my velcro seems like a pain, so I'm trying to decide if it is worth the effort.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you!! You are a legend.
@@shawnadams1693 no, you are sir!
Sorry if you addressed this already (I looked over the comments pretty well).
I have a stomp, timeline, and big sky all wired in stereo. If I leave left and right cables into all the inputs but only go into one amp out of the Left, will it include my full signal or will the bigsky only send out half? I play in stereo and mono equally on this rig so I’d love to not have to take out the cables.
Jon, you'll get the left only...no really half the signal, just what's processed to be on the left side. Ideally you'd create separate presets for mono that give you the best version of the L and R effects. As you can see the Summing, even if you prefer it in these examples, is a compromise just as much as going mono out of a stereo wired rig - I think even better. The devices aren't designed to be summed with external hardware like the summing boxes do.
Great video and a real eye opener for me. Is there a way to pan the output of the H9 to 100% left without having a noticeable effect engaged? For example, if I had 2 stereo pedals engaged before the H9, could I set up a preset on the H9 so that it pans the output 100% left without adding any reverb/delay/etc? Would wet-dry routing and something like a flat EQ preset (Wet L, Dry R) work?
Yes, you can do it to the H9 in the app software for the H9 only, it won't work for other stereo pedals before or after it.
Definately gotta try this with my boss dd-500 hard panning left
Yes, easy to do on that pedal!
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the "light bulb" moment!
@@davidmbas yes indeed!
What would you say about the Empress Stereo+ Buffer pedal? It allows you to sum to mono. Would this have the ability to translate the proper stereo spread into a single amp? Or would the compromise be the same? Thanks for the content 🤘
Sum is a Sum...the problem is that the pedals that are in stereo aren't made to be summed to mono with external boxes, it doesn't matter what the summing network is. You can of course do the test yourself that I did here and record it in true mono, true stereo, summed mono, and then stereo with just the left output hard panned and compare.
How do you hard pan an analog (I think) pedal, like Strymon Lex
Is there a docta in the house!!!??? good tips here doc!
LOL! Thanks for watching Colson!
Ok I'm in a bind after watching this. I have the second half of my pedal board wired in stereo, and at the end I have a switcher to send the signal either to my Strymon Iridium or to my amp. I want the iridium to get a stereo signal, and the amp to get a mono signal. Is there a way to achieve this without doing any rewiring in between switching?
I’d just use one channel out of the iridium and bypass the iridium when going to the amp.
@@VertexEffectsInc oh damn that's such a simple solution, I'm laughing at my self for not even thinking about just putting the iridium in bypass, I've even thought why someone would bypass it! So you're basically saying just get rid of the switcher in front of the iridium and go straight to the amp from the bypassed iridium's left and hopefully properly summed output? That would leave the headphone output in stereo which is what I mostly use the iridium for anyway...
@@VertexEffectsInc thank you kindly for your help!
Very interesting vid ! I use 3 Strymons : El Cap, Flint & BigSky. So if I'm right, the best way to use them would be to plug the El Cap and Flint in stereo, then going out of the BigSky with the left output only, is that it ? Because I don't think you can hard pan on the BigSky...
Yes, and/or pan the output of the Big Sky hard right in for your mono presets
@@VertexEffectsIncThanks ! But I'm not sure it's possible to pan something on the BigSKy...
@@thisisjtom I think you can set some parameters to make it more advantages in mono. I'm not sure which models allow and and which do not but they have this on the site: "Press and hold the feedback button for the desired head you would like to pan.
While holding down the feedback button, turn the TIME knob left or right of the 12 o’clock noon position to set the panning for that head.
For centered panning, turn the TIME knob to the 12 o’clock noon position and the corresponding playback button for that head will light up RED. Release the feedback button."
@@VertexEffectsInc Ok I'll make sure to check that. But I think what you saw was related to only one of the algorythm of the BigSky. Thanks anyway for your answers ;)
I run a wet/dry rig with an AB/Y switch after the drive section, before the mod and time based effects.
I'm running a sovtek Mig 60 as the dry Amp and a kitty Hawk junior (German Mesa Mark 1 clone) as the wet Amp.
So when I play with only one Amp, I simply do not use the dry output and never have to worry about it.
But this isn't a stereo rig to begin with, just a split mono so you wouldn't have the same consequences, perhaps only a polarity issue in running two amps. A wet/dry rig, really should be split from the pre-amp of the dry amp and a line out off the output transformer padded down to line level to hit the 100% wet effects in a parallel mixer. What you have is a bit different.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thank you for your kind response. You're absolutely right, it is a weird dual mono thing, that's why I didn't use the word stereo 😉
I like it a lot and it works very well in live and rehearsal environments.
By using the big shot from radial, the amps are isolated via a transformer and the polarity is switchable.
Never had any Issues at all ✌️
@@colinfrank9026 sounds good!
Thanks for the video! What about if I run a 2x12 box with the speakers wired stereo in it? (with 2 inputs of course) Could the phase cancelling happen inside the box? Can the 2 speaker "weakens" each other? Or could this effect be negligible?
Your cabinet won't change anything.
Little off subject question! When you use a stereo effect pedal to split the signal (as opposed to say an active ABY switch) to two amps like you seem to have done in this video, is there a significative signal loss? Or the only difference between active aby switchers and stereo effects pedal when it comes to signal splitting is the ability to flip the phase and ground option? Should the stereo effect pedal in this application be buffered? Thanks!
If you're using the last stereo pedal to split to a stereo set up it should be the same on both the L and R presuming they're the same amps, set the same. Not all stereo devices invert so you may not necessarily have an issue. If you use two different amps for these stereo image the amps might have inverted polarity so that could also be a problem, but you can resolve this easily with getting an inverted speaker cable and using it on one. The only issue you can't sold is the isolation, most stereo pedals don't have any galvanic isolation like this and will require some sort of iso transformer if you do have hum.
Strymon does mono sum the signal that goes into the fx. With the mobius, this means the flanger does sum to mono bc its 100 percent wet. Annoying
Great explanation and example.
this video rocks, thank you!
Glad you liked it!
I do like your setup using the Active Summing Network. Within this system, I like the Mono (Left) Output because of the sound and the fact you are using only one amp.
My question is would the amp still need the effects Loop?
But what if I want to run mono into an iridium and stereo out to an hex effects? Do these same rules apply?
get another iridium bro
The Strymon has it's own internal summing in it - so this will work better that most because the hardware to sum in not external to the device. So if you run mono out of the Iridum you can use the switch on the back for that, or at least compare to what it sounds like summed versus a TS cable out of the HX Effects into the input of the Iridium instead of TRS.
@@VertexEffectsInc I have an iridium as well. Since you need to use a double ts to single trs cable to go stereo would that also mean disconnecting the last pedal’s right output and change the input switch in the iridium back to mono?
I’m asking because I’m not sure if it would behave differently since it would still have a trs input.
@@jmd12331 I think if you select the mono input it disables either the ring or the tip so you're only getting one - but I can't say for sure as I didn't design the product.
Pro as always. Thnxx bro❤
Hey Mason, thanks to your continuous effort on teach people to know better their rigs (including me). I've been thinking to split my signal in 2 mono after the preamp (JCM800 style amp), one to go with no effects and the other to use my digital effects on killdry. Then summing back. Reason? I want to avoid analog-digital converting at my dry signal. What are your thoughts on this summing? Devices to indicate? Thanks again.
So how does this work if you create a junction box at the end of your board with option for mono plus stereo. I.e. if you use mono in your junction box is it just summing the stereo signal ?
That's what this video was demonstrating. That is summing stereo to mono - the exact issue this video is addressing.
These "summing" solutions sound too complicated and problematic, (or simply don't work) - I'd much rather stay mono (L input/output if the device is stereo) or go properly stereo or wet/dry if I have the option.
Thanks for the info.
Right? Let’s just say that these mono sum pedals worked better than what he’s proposing in the video... what is the difference from that and just using the mono outputs of your stereo devices?
I agree...in most cases the "cure" is worse than the disease.
I showed this in the video...with sound examples. Skip to around 8 mins.
@@VertexEffectsInc Up next: Analog dry-thu!
Please?
@@mattgilbert7347 what about it? You can make any pedal analog dry thru with a parallel mixer...a good cheap one is a Rolls Mini Stereo Mixer.
Is that the Shiva/Red Seven Little Wave? Mason is going 80's rack-chorus/Landau in a box. I Love that pedal. I always wondered about this topic? Rig Dr. = uncovering the tone mysteries! What can I do with my Big Sky and DD500?
Yes it is! It's a great pedal. I actually like that it's in mono - makes it more simple to use for most rigs and in front of an amp wet/dry, I like the chorus in mono in front before going to delay/reverb in a parallel mixer after the preamp. You can do this inside those pedals and hard pan them. I don't own a Big Sky, but I do it on my Boss DD500 all the time.
I have pedals that are stereo and some only have 1 input and 1 output (mono) how should I combine the two to get a stereo at the end of the chain?
Stereo effects, in particular, delay and reverb, should be at the end of the chain if you plan to use them in stereo. Your mono effects would lead into the stereo effects.
Thanks for the video I am a percussive guitarist and I have a live performance next mounth, my guitar has two different pickups, one for the srtrings and other one for the percussion and this pickups have seperate output jacks. I use Fender ABY pedal to connect both jacks into one single amp, is it gonna affect two much? should I borrow another amp to have two amps?
Those are two different source that likely hit a mixer...or should...it's a little different than this.