Great information. I use older amps without effects loop. I use an Origen effects slide rig and play lots of slide. Origen recommends that the compressor should be first in the chain and then boost, gain etc. I am not sure where to add the volume pedal for that pedal steel sounds that this great compressor gives me and I’m waiting for my new volume pedal and just want your sage advice! Thanks and I love what you’re doing. I’m also not up on the buffer pedal you mentioned! Wildroot!
@@jamesdougherty9779 If you have a buffer, that should be first, also fuzz or impedance sensitive before compressor as well. Volume would go after gain as I suggest here.
I gotta feeling I’m going to be watching this video over and over again for the next six months. It really changed the way I think about my wet dry wet rig.
In fact there is something: on the “modern WDW”, after the tri-tone chorus, the line signal splits in stereo, right? It seems to me that the Parallelizer mixer has a mono input (from product photos). Can’t I just skip the mixer and connect in stereo the time based effects? My rig is Tri-Avatar>Blue Sky>TC Nova delay. Thanks!!
@@purple76seaslug they are release a stereo version shortly, so this is perhaps preemptive, but you can also sacrifice loop 1 in the current version and use return 1 as another input. The technique is correct however despite the limitations of this particular device.
Mason, you did spread the info on thick, and I love it. Normally I listen to information type videos like this sped up because explanations are taking too long. It was nice listening at a normal pace. I also love your content, clear, concise, as it inspirers questions and answers them too. Thanks!
Thank you. You cleared up the difference between “line level” and “amp output level.” Very much appreciated. Thinking of putting an EQ in my effects loop.
Maan, shout out to you for the knowledge and interpretation and shout out to the crew. You are all doing phenomenal job! Super helpful, entertaining and informative. Even some complicated things are presented in fun, perfectly paced, easy going way. Love that you care and repeat to make sure we don't get lost. Love suggestions no matter what they are about! Cannot think of more professional group of people. Even if there is, im glad im in that time that i can learn this way. Just enjoying!!!
Wow! Best 28 minutes spent for "beyond the basics." I have watched Josh, Brian, Dan and Mick for YEARS, learned a lot, so this is NOT a diss. Rather, just saying Mason has done the best job of breaking down - concisely - an enormously dense topic into bite sizes, with clarity, AND enough diagrams. Dan and Mick would take an hour and a half, meander, and I wouldn't be as clear at the end of it. It's their style, love you Dan and Mick, but this is Mason's strong suit. I didn't know about the Parallelizer and it's a game changer for me, as is the modern W/D/W. Much appreciated!
So glad you found it helpful, there’s one drawback about the MusicomLab that was an explicitly said in the video, it doesn’t have stereo input, but you can use the first return as a second channel if you need to go stereo in and stereo out. Nevertheless the theory is still the same as what shown in the video.
@@VertexEffectsInc That's true about no stereo input - I really wish the pedal industry would just standardize to this extent: If your pedal has stereo outs, please make it have stereo inputs too. Can't count the number of times this has caused problems. When you start trying to mix or come up with a pedal order when you have a TC Chorus/Flanger, a Blue Sky, an El Capistan, a Deco, a Flint etc, you run into that one-does, but the next-one-doesn't thing and it gets very frustrating. But the Parallelizer helps and the price is right.
@@SFolkes97 in the mixer you don't need stereo input since it's just for the input muting and the pedals are set to 100% wet. For a serial rig it's more problematic - however most of those pedals you mentioned are all stereo in if you use an insert cable.
@@VertexEffectsInc Got it, thanks. I was unaware some of the small Strymon pedals had internal jumpers to set up TRS stereo inputs. (Read the ENTIRE manual Steve.) The El Capistan is one of them. Unfortunately mine is an early one without the jumpers (pre 2012) and has the audible click footswitches. I didn't even know there were two versions until now. Not a big deal, just inconvenient sometimes.
I don’t know if that was their original intent, but it works great for this purpose, you could also easily use something like a cab M from two notes as well
Afterthought about buffers. I grabbed one of the EMPRESS buffers not long ago (the stereo version) and I'm blown away at what it can do. Thx again dude.
Great video... thanks! I'll be sharing with lots of folks who seem to struggle with this... your diagrams sure help. I do a variation on your Wet-Dry-Wet setup, taking a split of the Dry feed destined for my 'dirty' amp and sending it through a Two Notes C.A.B. for (optional... footswitch or MIDI) Power Amp and/or CAB simulations before feeding the first of my mono-to-stereo effects pedal(s) and then to the Wet input. With the simulations on, I can feed the stereo Wet signal to powered wedges, the PA, or even a bespoke FRFR system. With the sims off, I can use clean-ish guitar amps (potentially rented backline) as the Wets. If I have the luxury of time/resources to do it (often only in the studio/live feed or sharing my backline with others on e.g. a charity gig) I can use any combination of real amps and/or speaker cabs, plus any combination of FRFR amps and cabinets on either or both the FOH and foldback/IEM mixes...even the on-stage sound. It gives me lots of versatility to ensure I have my default Dry 'dirty' sound from my personal amp, but good Wet from whatever makes sense to take with me... usually *just* my own pedalboard and amp, plus two light-weight, 10" powered wedges... so every item is less than 10kg :-)
This is more of a split system, you can get a cleaner result of of the Line Out or line out box from you amp to feed your Two Notes and any wet processing effects. You can also adjust the volume of your wet/dry ratio acoustically and not have the series of effect be impacts in the same way as a serial split set up.
Really appreciate all you do with sharing all this info. I have really learned a lot and am building or better yet rebuilding, adding a few pedals, and locating pedals based on your recommendations and yes!!!! I'm adding buffers!!! Definitely will be checking out all of your videos and will be around... I've had some ideas about this yet really didn't know to much in the whole scheme of things, but always wanted to learn more about dialing in various tones. Now i'm focusing on tone emulations much more... anyway, thanks again...
fantastic video so clear! I suggest turning down the popping noise that keeps repeating for every bullet point, it's pretty loud in my opinion and it's harder to listen to the speaker sometimes :)
Excellent video, Doc! This is the direction I'm headed, and you cleared up some concerns I had. I'll be hitting you up on the Rig Doctor Patreon page for a full on "Vertexorcism" ASAP.
Just a fantastic set of videos! Thanks for all you do. I have a question… I am currently going from my guitar into a Radial JDI, which is then sending its THRU signal to my amp in chain (4 cable method) and off to my DAW/mixer to record the raw guitar sound. This way I end up with a raw guitar track (for reamping if needed) and the full effected signal recorded. I briefly saw you had a buffer splitter after guitar, which got me thinking about my setup. Am I preserving tone/sound with how I am doing it? Or do you recommend another approach?
@@VertexEffectsInc they are talking about when you were showing the key input on the Fortin Zuul. I have a very similar setup to what he is describing and I think he is asking about how a DI fits into this if you can clarify. Guitar is going into the DI which has a through to the amp path as well as the balanced 600 ohm output to mixer/interface for recording the dry signal. On the amp path from the through on the DI I then go to my tuner with bypass and then input buffer, and so on.
Hey Bro loved the video man. I learned a lot. So I have a request/question. Could you do a video on how rthis would work for a multi effect unit or modeler?
I just set up my first pedal board. I was wondering if there was a preferred cable type to use from the amp’s fx loop. I’m currently using 7ft D’Addario solder-less cables I made that run from my PX-8 plus to the amp’s fx loop. I have it so the fx loop is integrated with loops 1-6 and loops 7-8 are my before amp effects. The D’Addario cables are bulky and I think I’m going to start replacing them one by one with your pre-made patch cables because I have a feeling that all the patch cables I made won’t work so well when I test my rig out this weekend. I’m already regretting the switcher. I’m just a hobbyist and it really is overkill. As always, thank you for these amazing videos! Very informative and I’m hitting that like button every time.
I would ONLY use soldered cables, we have plenty of videos on why this important. For the effects loops I would use the lowest capacitance possible you can find. Something like Mogami 2524 or Gepco X Band would be good candidates. We also sell our recommended cables on our website and at Sweetwater.
Thanks for the great explanation! If I use a tuner with a built-in high quality buffer such as the TC Electronic Polytune 3 Mini with the built-in Bonafide buffer and then into a passive volume pedal, does a separate input buffer before such a tuner-pedal become obsolete or even damaging?
Dude Mason thanks so much for recommending this video! Solved my problem with my NS2. You made it perfectly clear to figure out is it the amp or the pedal making the noise. In my case it was the pedals so the first method was magic! My amp is a Orange 35rt practice amp so I am interested to try and use the FX loop. Is it worth running any of this into that?
Great video Mason, but what about an effects processor like a line 6 m13 with the use of external pedals , where would be best place in the signal chain for the processor? Thanks👍
@8:36 is the buffer before amplifier input there because of a 12 to 15 ft instrument cable run...from pedal board to amp head ? Do amplifier FX loops normally have built in buffers? If someone is using the 4 cable method with a loop in the Boss ES-8 switcher pedal board, would they need four buffers in total?...1.) input to pedal board. 2.) ES-8 send to the input of amplifier. 3.) Fx send from amplifier to ES-8 return 4.) ES-8 output to return of amplifier 1.) and 4.) can be from a High Wire Mesa Dual pedal on the pedalboard. But 2.) and 3.) would be single buffers?...where 3.) is back on the amplifier far away from pedalboard? Thanks for the help!
You can watch more about our buffer strategy on our buffer videos but the input buffer is there to load the pickups and convert the signal to low impedance, however, the effectiveness of the input buffer is nullified once you either 1) turn on a true bypass pedal or 2) run into another buffered pedal. With that in mind, the input buffer at best is loading the guitar pickups as they should be with a 1M input (common of most amps) and maybe buffering the first few pedals at best, then you're dependent upon your pedals on your pedalboard to drive the line the rest of the way back to the amp. This is a problem as pedals range all over the place, from 50K+ down to 100 ohms (but rarely under 1K). For this reason the output buffer dead last in the signal path in front of the amp is critical because most pedals can't drive even 10ft. of low capacitance cable without some loss, degradation, EQ change, or distortion being introduced. Most FX loops are passive, however some are buffered, but most are poor - and color the signal a lot. The Boss Buffers are poor, BJT output buffers JFET input buffers, 1M (if you're lucky depending on the device) on the input, and 1K on the output normally, never lower than that. You'd be better off running your High Wire as a dual buffer in front of the amp, and getting something like a Klienulator as your FX Loop buffer that will turn a passive loop into an active buffered loop. If you FX loop is already buffered, I'd just get a separate buffer for the return like the Mesa Boogie Stowaway or similar.
@VertexEffectsInc If you would be kind enough to take the time, I need an assessment of my setup, and any opinions or suggestions on what I'm doing wrong/right or could do differently. I'm using what I'd consider a hybrid setup where I'm running a few analog fx with a Pod Go. Current signal chain is: Guitar> JHS Killswitch> Livewire passive a/b/y box([a] channel for d.i. and [b] continues to rest of pedalboard)> MXR Talkbox (which has full bypass mode when engaged)> Original Morley Bad Horsie II> Ibanez Mini Tube Screamer> MXR Noise Gate> Guitar in of Pod Go and using 4cm from Pod Go into my Orange Micro Dark head. In my Pod Go signal path, I have: Volume pedal> modulations (Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Trems)> FX Loop> Amp Simulation> Reverb> Delay> EQ? (Sometimes?*). I'm using a Diezel Amp Simulation in the Pod Go and have my Micro Dark head set up for gorgeous clean tones with the gain at just around 8 o'clock, tone at 3 o'clock and volume at 3 o'clock. Assuming you're familiar with the Pod Go and its features, how would you go about signal routing with this kind of setup? Amp Simulation before or after FX loop in the PG chain, analog pedals in the PG fx loop, etc? Your time and response are greatly appreciated!!
Want to run 2 different flavor 2-Channel amps w/ different Boosts in front and e.g. stereo delay in effect loop. Can/do I have to use a “7 cable method”?
Great video, thanks! Can I use the new MXR tremolo as my output buffer? The pedal is true bypass by default but it can be switched into buffered bypass. Input impedance 600 k♎ Output impedance < 140 ♎
I just picked up one of your modded Boss volume pedals. I haven't received it yet but am wondering, did you put a buffer in that or will I still need a boost going into the amp? (Placing it before time delay effects)
Having built a true wet/dry/wet rig as my COVID project, I can say with 100% certainty that you should only build one if you want the experience of having built one. If you want to play one, buy an AxeFX :). When you factor all parts in, I can say for sure that an AxeFx provides far more for less $. I will say this - going the old school route is a very educational experience and helps you appreciate what modelling gives us.
In my rack, I do all my wet processing in the AXEFX and all my dry with analog pedals into a tube amp. It’s simple and the Axe can handle all my pitch, reverb, and delay with the mixer inside it and do the cab sim for the wet processing.
@@VertexEffectsInc this is what I'm moving towards before the end of the year :). PS - thanks for all of your videos, they were what started me down the W/D/W journey all those months ago!
In your opinion, if I’m using the JHS muffaletta fuzz pedal, should I run that before my buffer? My buffer is on the bottom of my board and I don’t want to re arrange. :/ my set up!
Thanks for the info Bro...! I was wondering, can you use on a EVH 111 50W 212 6L6 combo.... the MXR EVH 5150 OD Pedal in the effects loop for an boost pedal?
In one of the examples you had a "Hall Of Fame" as the last pedal before the buffer, if that pedal has a "Bonifide Buffer" inside can you take the buffer out?
I use a few pedals in front of my amp,then my amp is loaded by a Fryette PS-100…..I want to take the line out of the Fryette,put my line amp signal into my AxeFXIII for the stereo wet,while the Fryette supplies amplification for my center channel…..will I be able to have some dry signal in my wet cabs with the AxeFXIII??…..I don’t particularly care for 100 percent wet…I want some dry signal in the wet cabs…Or would I need something like the Parallelizer to do this?
@@VertexEffectsInc that is great….I have the AxeFXIII,power amps,etc…just waiting on my two cabs that are being shipped,then I can put it all together……I had always heard you had to have analog dry thru pedals if you weren’t going to run full wet in the stereo cabs…..hence my question about using the AxeFXIII…..happy to hear it will work…
Thanks for the videos @VertexEffects, very helpful! I'd really appreciate your feedback on my rig plans... I mostly record in my home studio. I use a DI box so I can run my amp live while still being able to record a DI signal into my DAW. I then run line level from my direct out on my amp into my DAW and record both channels at the same time. I'm running a high gain distortion pedal and a tube screamer into my clean channel on my Revv G20. (btw I tried switching positions between the two mid to high gain pedals and you are absolutely right about the lower gain pedal going after the high gain pedal). Anyway... I want flexibility; the option to switch between the high gain pedal and my amps built-in distortion. Therefore, I'm applying the 4-cable method and using my FX Loop as you recommended. I want to introduce a gate and looper into my signal chain. The looper for live shows where I might have a third guitar part. Unfortunately you didn't cover these pedals in your video, so I scoured the comments here for answers. Between some of your replies and my own logic, this is what I was able to come up with... instrument output>DI box input>DI box instrument level output>tuner input>tuner output>buffer input>buffer send>dynamics input>dynamics output>gate input>gate send>distortion input>distortion output>buffer return>buffer output>amp input>amp send>buffer input>buffer send>gate return>gate output>modulation input>modulation output>time-based input>time-based output>buffer return>buffer output>looper input>looper output>amp return I think I got it, or I believe I'm pretty close. I'm questionable about the tuner (Peterson strobe) placement, modulation effects being in the FX Loop, the routing of the buffers and placement of the looper. I'm not sure if the DI box is acting as a buffer already. Also, I would assume a gate falls under the dynamic category since it behaves a lot like a compressor but it still makes sense (to me) to keep my other dynamic pedals before and out of the gates FX Loop. Appreciate your time and love the videos, Ryan
Familiar with the new Wampler Gearbox? it has an effects loop option... what pedals should go in that loop? i think its been said that Andy Wood has his compressor in the loop of the Gearbox..?
You could pretty much follow the same ideology that spoken about here, presuming how you’re setting the gain of the two devices inside of the effects pedal.
How about the new hotone volume pedal with a tuner? Where do you recommend to have it in the chain? It also does a buffer (not very sure of its buffer’s specs tho 😅)
After watching many of your videos I have a few questions, with impedance sensitive pedals, what do you do with an active bass? They are supposed to be before the input buffer the but the active bass has the input buffer inside of it? if I were using pedals that are buffer bypass (mostly boss pedals) considering the pedal order the worse buffer should go after the good quality input buffer correct? Thanks for these videos they really are helpful, they make a world of difference in building my rig so far
For classic WDW, I’m not sure how to route the stereo outs of my Boss DC-2W or Tricerachorus into the Musicom Parallelizer. The Parallelizer only has a mono input. Do I just go straight into return 1 (L&R)? That leaves me with two loops, one for a micropitch and one for reverb, correct? Then take the two Parallelizer stereo outs into the return 1 of a second Parallelizer for two more loops (for two mono delays or a single stereo delay)? Also, why not have the chorus in a parallel loop like the other pitch/time effects?
I would put output L from your stereo chorus into the input of the Parallelizer, and output R from your stereo chorus into loop 1 input on the Parallelizer (mix set to max). Then put the Reverb and Pitch in loops 2/3.
Great video! Just wondering if you’d have some advice on where and how to set up vocal pedals, like the TC Helicon harmony singer 2 etc. where in the chain would that be? Should vocal pedals be placed in a chain or not at all?
Hi Mason, I have the PolyTune 3 pedal which has the Bonafide buffer built-in. I am a little confused looking at your diagram. On your diagram you have a polytune after what looks like a dedicated buffer. First of all, do I need a dedicated buffer? Also, polytune pedals, whether version 2 or 3, are true bypass. You keep saying in the video that a true bypass tuner goes first (I am assuming in front of the buffer), and a buffered tuner goes after a buffer. Can you please clarify this? Thank you for the great tips.
No all versions of the Polytune have a buffer option so we have to generalize it. The Polytune has a decent buffer in it (however most guitar tuners do not have good buffers). You could double up the tuner and the input buffer as your first buffer right after the guitar or any impedance sensitive devices if you have a vintage style fuzz for example. You'll still need an output buffer at the end of the chain.
@@VertexEffectsInc I have the Polytune 3 also. Just so that I am clear, the Polytune 3 is OK - no need to put an additional buffer in front of that pedal - I can simply connect the guitar to tuner directly and maybe use a bonafide at the end of the chain (into the amp) is that accurate? Additionally, I have an EHX Ram's Head Reissue. From your 'general' recommendatiion I should put it BEFORE the Polytune 3? Now, for pedals like the UAFX Dream '65 and Ruby (no FX loop) should I place wet effects after those pedals? or in front? I mean neither of those amps originally had FX loops anyway. For the record: my wet effects are simply Chorus, Delay, and Reverb all by TC Electronic and as a matter of fact all have buffered bypass - does that mean anything?
What if I tried to make a w/d/w rig by splitting the signal with a mimiq doubler? Basically I’d send one output from the doubler to my “dry” amp and the second output too my “wet” effects. I would then then split the signal a second time from the collider to the effects loop of my other two amps. Think this would work?
If your using the compressor on a bass on a simple one line system, would you put it in the dynamics area? I saw the dyna comp up there and was wondering about its position here versus the more complicated position in the wet?
Depends if you want to use it as a limited or as a compressor. Many bass players will use it later in the chain for a more "studio" sound after their distortion and drive style effects.
Thank you for this. I’m new to the guitar playing scene. Haven’t even gotten my guitar yet🤣😂😆 I don’t want a speaker cab yet. I want to preamp the signal with the option of using effects pedals or not and out put straight to my interface. Is that an option with this. And what would you or anyone in the comments recommend.
Hi Rig Doctor, to me you are not mentioning THE issue with 4CM. Ground loops... Get 2 cases I spent many time on it and IMO worth sharing with other musicians. First was my strymon mobius. I'm using it in pre/post mode. but the pedal is grounded to same ground. And it was creating a terrible buzz due to ground loop. I've unsoldered and isolated with tape the ground of my patch cable plug into right out and it solved the issue. But this is common tricky issue when using a stereo pedal in pre/post mode. There are maybe better solution I don't know. Second was having a patch bay within my pedalboard, using SP400 (and my strymon mobius as well...). Good but with the given angle to the plugs, the metal plug of the SP400 were touching one another... creating a common ground creating a big ground loop... Put some tape on each one solved my issue. But for next PB I'll use for the patch SP4S All in all ground has to be considered when mounting a PB in 4CM. And if there is any ground link between front of the amp ground and FX loop ground, this may cause sever buzzing.
The pre/post thing is more of the issue. There can be work arounds to float the pre/post if that's the intent on the manufacturer going in, but not something that's inherent in 4CM (in terms of ground loops). Sometimes you can also mitigate the loop area based on location of the Mobius (or fill in the black 4CM pre/post device) or based on how the cables are dressed. I did this for Paul Jackson Jr.'s rig with a GT1000 with no isolation transformers and no ground loop, but all pre/post 4CM. I'm not sure I understand your solution for isolating the Mobius. A better solution if it's it's really the pedal is just have some sort of iso-splitter on the return, even something small with a SP-66 10K-10K ISO transformer will work. For the Interface, you'll 1) want to use isolated jacks (like the Neutrik switched jacks I normally recommend for our interface DIY tutorials - and just ground the main guitar input and float the others). Secondly, you can heat shrink around the SP400's or any pancake or R/A plug, you can do every one, but every-other is fine too, so you'll still get separation. Or you could go with SPS4's. I hear you on ground loops, but to me a lot of them are self induced and not necessarily the pedals, especially in a mono system, 4CM or not. This video is really about signal path - not ground loops. We will do something along these lines in the future about ground loops and galvanic isolation, and I appreciate you reminding me of this so we can put this on our list for future video discussions!
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the comment. Regarding my solution, I just unsoldered the ground of my patch cable on the post ouput of the mobius and put some heat shrink around the ground wire. That's what you call float? I will have a look at the iso-splitter. Regarding the interface I built such one on my previous pedalboard and it worked great but here I'm switching to a Rockboard pedalboard and I'm using their mod1 interface. It would be absolutely great if you can do a specific topic on ground loops. Thanks to your high quality videos, I now have a great quality board, but had to fight with ground for hours to grant full success ;)
@@weepingplume typically floating would just mean cutting it away. We have several DIY interface videos, diagrams, and drill templates, all free, that you can loop up on our channel if you want to upgrade from the Rockboard. We will definitely get into ground loops soon!
Hi Mason, it was an awesome explanation. But I got a question here, how do you apply the 4 cables method with foot switch midi controller pedal like boss es5 or musicomlab. Thanks man!
Thanks again for this video. I have a question for your opinion on a set up for a newbie to set up a board knowing that I am trying to replicate Def Leppard tones and Van Halen, Boston if there are devices to drop in your sound path for a 4 plug set up? I have no idea one brand from another and if you have a preference that you could suggest for what you would build to replicate that sound I would greatly appreciate it. New to Guitar and totally lost with pedals and have not started set up yet, but I totally appreciate your videos and any and all suggestion you have. You are awesome at explaining this and I am so glad I found this on u tube. Have a great day
@@VertexEffectsInc I have a Marshall I think DP 40 , Boss Katana MkII 50 and a spider V 100. I don't use Marshall much because i cant seem to figure out how to get the right sound out of it, but everyone says that the Marshall is the better of all, but i cant figure it out.
FYI, @3:05 in this video Mason verbally contradicts the prequel video. I'm pretty sure the image is correct and the words were misspoken. Meaning, the signal should pass thru hi gain dist before low gain OD type pedals.
What about running 4CM on a channel switching amp that has a built in gain boost on the OD channel as well as an outboard tube saturation (Koch Amps The Greg)? And where should I put a noise gate that has its own fx loop?
I am using a small tube preamp that has no FX loops, however I have a Mission Control pedal in my chain, can you give me some tips on how to achieve the explanation on my set up, cheers, I am in Oakland as well!!!
I’ve learned a lot. So, now the next step 😊 where you’d put a loopstation pedal in the WDW chain? I’m guessing that a Looper at the end it’ll never replay the distorted sounds… on the other side a Looper before the effect loop return from the amp will loose the right wet sound… Any hints?
The second time he mentions this, he says that the input buffer is a high quality buffer. So I’m assuming this implies that the tuner’s buffer is lower quality. I’m not sure this is the correct answer; I am wondering the same. But what I mentioned is probably the answer.
Just got myself a GFI Enieqma based on your other videos. Would love to know how to place it in the Wet Dry Wet signal chain, as you have mentioned it can be used in front end and back end of signal path.
Awesome awesome video Mason. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Instead of the Cab Sim, if I’m using two small combo amps, would the delay feed the return of each combo? Or would it be going into the front of the combo amps?
If both combo amps have effects loops and you want to run stereo effects loops, then the wet effects will go into the two effects returns. If you're running wet/dry/wet and you want to use them as power amps, then yes, only the FX Return (power amp input), do not use the input of the amp.
I am still just a big dummy. I can understand an effects Loop being necessary to an amp that brings some dirt to the equation. But I don't think you really need the effects Loop if your amp is not even giving any kind of gain or EQ color to what you're accomplishing. As I stumbled about to try to recreate a wet dry wet sound I found something pretty cool. I ran my gain stages to the front of the amp. The send of my effects Loop goes to my C9 pedal which then splits the signal one is dry and totally unaffected the other is also the same until you click the organ on. That second line runs through all of my time based effects. Both of those lines run into an A B Y Switcher but they're running into the outputs rather than the input and then I only have one combined line of the two running somewhat parallel and yet mingled back to the return. It's a kind of a neat wet and dry set up. ( I did not have a line outbox so I did the best I could with what I have) I am still getting the time effect on my phone even when I don't have the organ button turned on it's pretty cool
I have purchased the components to build one of your DIY Input/Output Buffers with an isolated Tuner Jack. I am thinking that will work good regardless of the internal buffering of the tuner itself. My first question is, how do I determine the gain rating of a distortion/overdrive pedal?
If you have the Tuner out any issue presented by the tuner will be resolved if it's fed off the input buffer. The gain I would think about in terms of saturation of the signal. More saturation, closer to the guitar, less saturation, further from the guitar.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes I get that. Let me ask the question a different way. Instead of a RAT and TS9, let's say I have a Tumnus Deluxe, Big Tweed, and Steel String MKII. How do I figure out what the Gain Rating is for each pedal so I know what order to put them in?
I might also mention that I am a Mechanical Engineer not an Electrical one, so some of this might need to be spelled out for me. Despite the fact that I am in my 50's I just picked up my first guitar in December and started play. I have spent the last several months trying to figure out the basics of pedal board design. I started with Rick Beato's video but all it gave me was Pitch, Tone, Modulation and Time. He failed big time where he didn't bother to say which pedal type fell in to witch category. I found a different video from the Pedal Show that followed this line of thinking, but gave me the info on which pedal type fell into which category. I have also been able to glean a lot of good information from Josh over at JHS Pedals. Just as I think I am getting a handle on this you come out with these 2 videos and throw 2 more base line configurations into the mix. Considering that I have a hand-me-down Amp from my brother to get started with and it has an effects loop. Your explanation of the 4 cable method has been very helpful.
@@ADHuss1 I'm not sure that my answer is any different. I wouldn't set them based on the gain they're capable of, but rather how you set them or how you stack them. If you don't stack your OD pedals then the order doesn't matter.
@@VertexEffectsInc as of right now the only 2 pedal that I know how to stack are the RAT and TS-9 and that is because you said the RAT is High Gain and the TS-9 is Low Gain. Until you tell me how to quantify the Gain level of other drive pedals I have no clue how to stack them according to the method you have described. How do I determine which pedal is a higher gain and which is a lower gain when stacking Drive pedals?
Great, detailed video Mason! New to the wet/dry/wet talk (been Kemper for years). Would the Two Notes CAB M+ work in place of the Suhr Line out? ie, Mesa Mark IV to 2notes (line out to wet effects, XLR used for mono signal). Thanks for the help Mason, great stuff!!!
Ideally you’d want to use the buffer inside of the switcher and then put it in bypass when you have the impede insensitive devices engaged or switched on through the programming. This way the input buffer can be turned off when a fuzz is on.
No, but they have one coming that’s is or you can leave return loop 1 on all the time and second input. This was more of a theoretical mixer - I think the Xotic C Blender is currently the only stereo in and out mixer out there.
Rack Mount flangers, Chorus, Phaser units back in the 70's had Line Level selectable input and output switches for effect loops line level signals to drive the modulation rack unit without distorting it. If you try to use instrument level signals guitar pedal in effects loop they will drive overloading the inputs causing distorted input signals in the guitar pedal which are not going to sound good. I think Frank Zappa used most of his rack mount modulation effects in the effects loop because the rack mount units has line level signals switching for the inputs and outputs. Running guitar pedals at +18vdc or +24vdc helps when using them in effects loops because +9vdc Clips the positive and negative cycles sooner lower headroom is bad when using effects loops.
Some did, not all, and there were also no standards for the levels coming out of the amplifiers either, there still isn't. Some rack gear could swing -20 to +4, so could do -10 to +4, some could to any combination thereof. Some would just do +4 only. It was all over the place. Guitar pedals that are designed for line level generally already have their power requirements known externally, and I wouldn't start throwing 18+ volt into the pedals unless you actually know it can take it.
@@VertexEffectsInc The problem with Noise gates in the effects loops is that it doesn't work good with compressors in the effects loops. I like putting a compressor in the effects loop to add that SAG but the hissing of the noise floor from the amplifiers gain hiss is hard to get rid of using a noise gate with a compressor in the amplifiers effects loop. Anyway to fix this problem?
@@VertexEffectsInc Since various types of amplifiers effect loops can be in the range from signal levels of -10dbm to +4dbm that its best to put a vertex buffer pedal in the amplifiers effects loop to normalize and balance out the effect loops signal level? before it drives any guitar pedals
@@VertexEffectsInc ah, I'm glad I read this. I have a combo amp and was considering putting a GE7 in the loop but I'll just move it before the pre amp. (Into the "front of the amp") Amp will have the distortion. I understand this means it will drive it more and won't be just a volume boost, but that's ok. Kudos on you sharing your knowledge and helping everyone in these comments!
I have a question, 5CM(Stereo 4cm) is like a wet/dry/wet with two amps, guitar and pedals go to amp input and the send of that amp goes mono to delay and reverb in stereo and those split in stereo to the return of amp 1 and the return of amp 2, so is using the original dry guitar sound in amp 1 but delays and reverb in stereo panned to amp 1 and 2(100% wet sound), my question is, is the sound similar with a 5CM rig with two amps to a Wet/Dry/Wet rig with three amps? Or is 5cm a reduced version of wet dry wet?
5CM and Wet/Dry/Wet are very similar sounding, yet. The only think you can't do is isolate the dry signal with its own channel in the mix separately from the stereo wet signals. If that's not critical, you're getting very close to what the intent of a wet/dry/wet rig was intended to be.
I know it's more a one off kinda thing, however what about when running several amps on something like a Radial JD7 Injector? Apparently I've been told more people use them then I'm aware of lol. It just seems a whole different ballpark when running multiple amps with 1 pedalboard through a system like this?
The video explains this exactly in the noise gate section. Re-watch and let us know if you have questions for clarification. Also if your Polytune 3 has a buffer you can loose the Bonafide buffer before it. Also you don't need a Buffer after the FX Send.
Ok, next level: wdw, but split to 2 amps for using 2 different gain sounds simultaneously... so like a total of 4 cabs/power sections, with the goal of sounding like double-tracked guitars live, basically. Not that I have the resources for this, but just want to challenge you. Lol... oh... OR splitting off an octave pedal to a bass amp that might also have a wet channel, or even crazier, feed into the wet signal path for certain parts as desired.
It’s not really wet dry wet, that’s just some sort of a split mono system or split stereo system. You could just as well follow the previous video that we did with serial mono systems.
Just a stupid question...Eddie Van halen was using the PCM70,2 SDE3000,Eventide H3000 without any mixer...how could he place them in parallel...? were they in series...?
The H3000 and the PCM70 were in a Rane SM26 Stereo Line Mixer, then on the stereo output of the mixer, the Roland SDE3000s were fed which you could have the dry signal (weren't 100% wet). If you use the DELAY only output you'd get 100% wet, but if you used the "MIXED" output you'd get dry and wet in the signal.
Hey, doc, thank you for this in-depth explanation that you call “quick and simple“! Super detailed and concise to the lesser knowledgeable like myself. I have only one question about W-D-W where you show the diagram sending into the dry amp, then it goes to a line out box which will send into the wet effects chain and into the dry cab itself. What exactly is that line out box? Any models you could suggest? Sorry but I’m new at this! Thank you!
Watch the video we just posted on Line Out boxes last week...it'll help explain this. I think the title is something like "The Best Upgrade I've Made to My Rig In Years" and has a line out box on the thumbnail with a $50 sign and an arrow pointing to it.
@@VertexEffectsInc wow!!!! You answered my comment!!! Thank you so much for the info and all you do for us! Bar none, your explanations of the technical aspects of guitar playing utilizing pedal boards, and the whole equipment involved into creating a great tone, are priceless! I’ve been working on my finances since COVID messed it up, but promise to help your channel in a few months if all goes well. There are a few TH-cam content creators who deserve us giving back a little to improve your life! Thank you very much!
@@VertexEffectsInc just watched it and it clears out the question, sorta. Btw you already earned your own playlist in my library a while back and that video was there already. I bought a pedalboard a while back, right when I started watching your videos, and you were the inspiration behind it! You gave us courage to delve into the realms of sound effects! One suggestion I have, based on the fact that I haven’t seen anybody offering such video, it’s a series of videos showing which effects go with great songs throughout history. I’ve seen you and others showing an artists and their pedals but, for people who doesn’t play out are trying to learn, a detailed list of effects involved to achieve the tone we are after, would be awesome. I bought two of your boost pedals a while back and love them, perhaps you can start a series of pedalboards based on a certain genre, or artist/band, that you could sell with pedals included, maybe some band colors or graphics to make it look awesome. It’s just an idea. Thanks again.
@@VertexEffectsIncso .....from the speaker output to the cab? Then a separate line out to the Suhr/Bray? On the schematic is looks like it is speaker out to Suhr/Bray and then to the cab.
@@VertexEffectsInc I would imagine that the Poweramp signal would be a tad bit too hot for "pedal", but it seems to work for you. I have tried the Bray like that and the Cabzeus did not like it much. Even on a very low level from the Bray.
@@peterknicked speaker cable from head to the line out box speaker in. Cab speaker cable into the speaker thru of the line out box. Then regular guitar cable out of the line output on the line out box feeding your wet effects and/or mixer.
@@VertexEffectsInc If I use my interface with a AMP plugin only, how do I "emulate" an fx loop? because if not I'm just putting all my pedals in front of that virtual amp :(
@C J Yeah, I know that. The thing is... I don't have an amp, I just use plugins for that, so that's why I dunno how to send the preamp tone to my pedals from the interface (?) and then back to the interface to the power section, all with a plugin.
Can you help me out of the path of a fortin zuul with a splitter/buffer? Where would the tuner/wah go and where would I put my distortion/chorus/flanger/delay ?
how would you place pedals like the MicroCosm or pedals that have multiple effects like the Black Hole symmetry that includes fuzz, reverb and delay and last question I have difficult time to place a signal routing control like the Mission Control from Spaceman effects and also what pedals are best to use inside the effects loop that this pedal creates, sorry for so many questions, thank you for your insights
This might be a really stupid question, but the (WET)FOH can also be CABS rights? What about FRFR speakers? And why would you say the effect loop's usefulness is nullified when its the pedals generating the distortion, isn't that what most people use which is pedals generating distortions?
I am new to all this so ,Out from a mono pedal I plug into the input R of the stereo pedal ,I hear only one of the two amps .if I remove the cable from the stereo pedal and plug it into the other input ( Mono) I hear only the other amp. Trying to get volume from both. running two cables from the stereo pedal L /R , do I get some kind of split cable to go from Mono pedal into both stereo pedals inputs??
I tried a designated buffer, but even at the end of the signal chain it would really mess up my Fuzz pedals. O.D was fine, but even my Muffroom sounded terrible. This was after trying it at the front of my chain which sounded worse. Is it buffer, or fuzz as a choice? Every other guitarists I asked conceded that buffers and Fuzz don't mix. Is that an essential truth, or is there something we're all missing?
List the order of effects and the sequence from guitar to amp. Typically if you have an output buffer at the end of the chain, your pedals earlier in the chain will be seeing other buffers inside of pedals or by way of pedals being turned on, that you might not be hearing the output buffer only as the active effect in the chain. Could be something else. Equally, what is the buffer? Quality matters...most buffers are poor, some are OK, very few are great.
Now I need the video about how to connect 2 high gain amps in parallel with analog delays in the loops without having 50hz noise getting loud. Damned power supplies problems !!!
You could use some galvanic isolation on one amp. Something like the Lehle P-Split would be a good option right into the input of the amp on one of your two amplifiers.
@@VertexEffectsInc Never tried in series. I use 2 Dual Rectifier 2 chan from the 90's (parallel fx loop for the delays) and each amp has its 4x12 cab. In each loop there is a RJM Rack Gizmo for mono analog delays powered by Voodoo Lab Iso5 (on rack trays). I made the cables (snake) with SommerCables and Neutrik gold. I want the amps parallel (not w/d/w) because I don't set the preamps the same way on each side. One for the attack, one for the low end. Everything is powered by an old Rocktron Power Station. And the signal is splited by the Lehle (I tried TheGigRig Humdinger too). And in the FX loops, the signal goes thru a Radial StageBug SB-6. And... I still have the problem in high gain. The 60hz buzzzzz going loud, too loud. OC I tried with other amps. 3 chan Rectos, Soldano SLO, Bogner Ecstasy, etc... Same problem. I guess it comes from the power supplies... Maybe should I try with the RackGizmos out of the rack case too...
I just noticed a problem with the wet/dry/wet chain. If you want to use a compressor and eq through the line out, it's only affecting the wet left and right sides and your dry center will probably sound off in comparison. This is where I think a stereo rig has an advantage since you have the dry sound in both cabinets being affected by the compressor and eq and would probably sound more harmonious.
Correct, it will only be on the wet processing side, not on the dry amp side. The other way you could get it on both sides it to do it in the effects loop (since the line out is still printing the preamp and power amp to the wet effects).
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Table of Contents
00:00 Introduction
01:11 Mono Signal Path Review
03:58 Four Cable Method
14:00 Traditional Wet/Dry/Wet
19:30 Modern/Easy Wet/Dry/Wet
24:38 Noise Gate Placement
26:38 Conclusion
Great information. I use older amps without effects loop. I use an Origen effects slide rig and play lots of slide. Origen recommends that the compressor should be first in the chain and then boost, gain etc. I am not sure where to add the volume pedal for that pedal steel sounds that this great compressor gives me and I’m waiting for my new volume pedal and just want your sage advice! Thanks and I love what you’re doing. I’m also not up on the buffer pedal you mentioned! Wildroot!
@@jamesdougherty9779 If you have a buffer, that should be first, also fuzz or impedance sensitive before compressor as well. Volume would go after gain as I suggest here.
I think I'm finally getting it. The way you rattle off knowledge is nuts. Thanks.
@@deanaf I'm so glad!
These two Shows have helped Allot, I’ve had to watch a couple times but what’s the best volume/level settings from pedal to pedal for the signal?
One of the most helpful videos on FX loops and options for where pedals can go. Really needed this
Dude. Great channel. Signal paths can be a serious rabbit hole. You do a very good job explaining.
Glad you think so!
I gotta feeling I’m going to be watching this video over and over again for the next six months. It really changed the way I think about my wet dry wet rig.
Let us know if you have questions!
In fact there is something: on the “modern WDW”, after the tri-tone chorus, the line signal splits in stereo, right? It seems to me that the Parallelizer mixer has a mono input (from product photos). Can’t I just skip the mixer and connect in stereo the time based effects? My rig is Tri-Avatar>Blue Sky>TC Nova delay. Thanks!!
@@purple76seaslug they are release a stereo version shortly, so this is perhaps preemptive, but you can also sacrifice loop 1 in the current version and use return 1 as another input. The technique is correct however despite the limitations of this particular device.
That’s exactly what I’ve done all day today. My wife is becoming an expert! Lmao!
Mason, you did spread the info on thick, and I love it. Normally I listen to information type videos like this sped up because explanations are taking too long. It was nice listening at a normal pace. I also love your content, clear, concise, as it inspirers questions and answers them too. Thanks!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you. You cleared up the difference between “line level” and “amp output level.” Very much appreciated. Thinking of putting an EQ in my effects loop.
👍👍👍
What an authoritative overview of the complexities of signal path. This was gold!
I hope you found it helpful...it's one way to do it, in the end this is all matter of taste.
Mason, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us all! Always great content 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
My pleasure!
Maan, shout out to you for the knowledge and interpretation and shout out to the crew. You are all doing phenomenal job! Super helpful, entertaining and informative.
Even some complicated things are presented in fun, perfectly paced, easy going way. Love that you care and repeat to make sure we don't get lost. Love suggestions no matter what they are about! Cannot think of more professional group of people. Even if there is, im glad im in that time that i can learn this way. Just enjoying!!!
Much appreciated!
Wow! Best 28 minutes spent for "beyond the basics." I have watched Josh, Brian, Dan and Mick for YEARS, learned a lot, so this is NOT a diss. Rather, just saying Mason has done the best job of breaking down - concisely - an enormously dense topic into bite sizes, with clarity, AND enough diagrams. Dan and Mick would take an hour and a half, meander, and I wouldn't be as clear at the end of it. It's their style, love you Dan and Mick, but this is Mason's strong suit. I didn't know about the Parallelizer and it's a game changer for me, as is the modern W/D/W. Much appreciated!
So glad you found it helpful, there’s one drawback about the MusicomLab that was an explicitly said in the video, it doesn’t have stereo input, but you can use the first return as a second channel if you need to go stereo in and stereo out. Nevertheless the theory is still the same as what shown in the video.
@@VertexEffectsInc That's true about no stereo input - I really wish the pedal industry would just standardize to this extent: If your pedal has stereo outs, please make it have stereo inputs too. Can't count the number of times this has caused problems. When you start trying to mix or come up with a pedal order when you have a TC Chorus/Flanger, a Blue Sky, an El Capistan, a Deco, a Flint etc, you run into that one-does, but the next-one-doesn't thing and it gets very frustrating. But the Parallelizer helps and the price is right.
@@SFolkes97 in the mixer you don't need stereo input since it's just for the input muting and the pedals are set to 100% wet. For a serial rig it's more problematic - however most of those pedals you mentioned are all stereo in if you use an insert cable.
@@VertexEffectsInc Got it, thanks. I was unaware some of the small Strymon pedals had internal jumpers to set up TRS stereo inputs. (Read the ENTIRE manual Steve.) The El Capistan is one of them. Unfortunately mine is an early one without the jumpers (pre 2012) and has the audible click footswitches. I didn't even know there were two versions until now. Not a big deal, just inconvenient sometimes.
Man, was this video educational! I appreciate you
Glad you enjoyed it!
I love videos like this. Knowledge is power.
Thanks for watching Howard! So glad you dig it!
Using a stereo cab sim setup for the L/R Wet was a great point. I honestly had not considered that. Brilliant!
I don’t know if that was their original intent, but it works great for this purpose, you could also easily use something like a cab M from two notes as well
I replicate think with the helix.....out 1/4" to real amp(dry) & cab, xlr L/R out to PA with the wet effects added. 👍🏻
@@Widdy5150 That could also work.
Afterthought about buffers. I grabbed one of the EMPRESS buffers not long ago (the stereo version) and I'm blown away at what it can do. Thx again dude.
Our pleasure!
Favourite channel on TH-cam! Great stuff, thanks!
🙏🙏🙏
Also excellent video. This was incredibly informative. I'm several guitars and amps away from pivoting to a stereo rig but it's very tempting.
🎸🎛🔊 go for it!!!
Great video... thanks! I'll be sharing with lots of folks who seem to struggle with this... your diagrams sure help. I do a variation on your Wet-Dry-Wet setup, taking a split of the Dry feed destined for my 'dirty' amp and sending it through a Two Notes C.A.B. for (optional... footswitch or MIDI) Power Amp and/or CAB simulations before feeding the first of my mono-to-stereo effects pedal(s) and then to the Wet input. With the simulations on, I can feed the stereo Wet signal to powered wedges, the PA, or even a bespoke FRFR system. With the sims off, I can use clean-ish guitar amps (potentially rented backline) as the Wets. If I have the luxury of time/resources to do it (often only in the studio/live feed or sharing my backline with others on e.g. a charity gig) I can use any combination of real amps and/or speaker cabs, plus any combination of FRFR amps and cabinets on either or both the FOH and foldback/IEM mixes...even the on-stage sound. It gives me lots of versatility to ensure I have my default Dry 'dirty' sound from my personal amp, but good Wet from whatever makes sense to take with me... usually *just* my own pedalboard and amp, plus two light-weight, 10" powered wedges... so every item is less than 10kg :-)
This is more of a split system, you can get a cleaner result of of the Line Out or line out box from you amp to feed your Two Notes and any wet processing effects. You can also adjust the volume of your wet/dry ratio acoustically and not have the series of effect be impacts in the same way as a serial split set up.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks Mason... I'll give that a go! Really, really appreciate the feedback :-)
Really appreciate all you do with sharing all this info. I have really learned a lot and am building or better yet rebuilding, adding a few pedals, and locating pedals based on your recommendations and yes!!!! I'm adding buffers!!! Definitely will be checking out all of your videos and will be around... I've had some ideas about this yet really didn't know to much in the whole scheme of things, but always wanted to learn more about dialing in various tones. Now i'm focusing on tone emulations much more... anyway, thanks again...
🙏🙏🙏
Thank you for explaining 4 cable method!
Yes, of course!
This video cleared up so much confusion for me. Great overview 🤘
fantastic video so clear! I suggest turning down the popping noise that keeps repeating for every bullet point, it's pretty loud in my opinion and it's harder to listen to the speaker sometimes :)
Thanks for that feedback glad you enjoyed the video
Thanks for another great lesson!!
Glad you liked it!
Excellent video, Doc! This is the direction I'm headed, and you cleared up some concerns I had. I'll be hitting you up on the Rig Doctor Patreon page for a full on "Vertexorcism" ASAP.
Thanks so much for watching!
Mason you don't realize how excited I am for this
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What's up Mason! Bless you brother and good day to you.
Same to you!
Just a fantastic set of videos! Thanks for all you do.
I have a question… I am currently going from my guitar into a Radial JDI, which is then sending its THRU signal to my amp in chain (4 cable method) and off to my DAW/mixer to record the raw guitar sound. This way I end up with a raw guitar track (for reamping if needed) and the full effected signal recorded.
I briefly saw you had a buffer splitter after guitar, which got me thinking about my setup. Am I preserving tone/sound with how I am doing it? Or do you recommend another approach?
Where do you see the splitter?
@@VertexEffectsInc they are talking about when you were showing the key input on the Fortin Zuul. I have a very similar setup to what he is describing and I think he is asking about how a DI fits into this if you can clarify. Guitar is going into the DI which has a through to the amp path as well as the balanced 600 ohm output to mixer/interface for recording the dry signal. On the amp path from the through on the DI I then go to my tuner with bypass and then input buffer, and so on.
Hey Bro loved the video man. I learned a lot. So I have a request/question. Could you do a video on how rthis would work for a multi effect unit or modeler?
I just set up my first pedal board. I was wondering if there was a preferred cable type to use from the amp’s fx loop. I’m currently using 7ft D’Addario solder-less cables I made that run from my PX-8 plus to the amp’s fx loop. I have it so the fx loop is integrated with loops 1-6 and loops 7-8 are my before amp effects. The D’Addario cables are bulky and I think I’m going to start replacing them one by one with your pre-made patch cables because I have a feeling that all the patch cables I made won’t work so well when I test my rig out this weekend. I’m already regretting the switcher. I’m just a hobbyist and it really is overkill. As always, thank you for these amazing videos! Very informative and I’m hitting that like button every time.
I would ONLY use soldered cables, we have plenty of videos on why this important. For the effects loops I would use the lowest capacitance possible you can find. Something like Mogami 2524 or Gepco X Band would be good candidates. We also sell our recommended cables on our website and at Sweetwater.
Waiting! Super excited
🎉🎊🎸🔊🎛
Thanks for the great explanation! If I use a tuner with a built-in high quality buffer such as the TC Electronic Polytune 3 Mini with the built-in Bonafide buffer and then into a passive volume pedal, does a separate input buffer before such a tuner-pedal become obsolete or even damaging?
Dude Mason thanks so much for recommending this video! Solved my problem with my NS2. You made it perfectly clear to figure out is it the amp or the pedal making the noise. In my case it was the pedals so the first method was magic! My amp is a Orange 35rt practice amp so I am interested to try and use the FX loop. Is it worth running any of this into that?
Glad it helped!
Great video Mason, but what about an effects processor like a line 6 m13 with the use of external pedals , where would be best place in the signal chain for the processor? Thanks👍
@8:36 is the buffer before amplifier input there because of a 12 to 15 ft instrument cable run...from pedal board to amp head ? Do amplifier FX loops normally have built in buffers?
If someone is using the 4 cable method with a loop in the Boss ES-8 switcher pedal board, would they need four buffers in total?...1.) input to pedal board. 2.) ES-8 send to the input of amplifier. 3.) Fx send from amplifier to ES-8 return 4.) ES-8 output to return of amplifier
1.) and 4.) can be from a High Wire Mesa Dual pedal on the pedalboard. But 2.) and 3.) would be single buffers?...where 3.) is back on the amplifier far away from pedalboard?
Thanks for the help!
You can watch more about our buffer strategy on our buffer videos but the input buffer is there to load the pickups and convert the signal to low impedance, however, the effectiveness of the input buffer is nullified once you either 1) turn on a true bypass pedal or 2) run into another buffered pedal. With that in mind, the input buffer at best is loading the guitar pickups as they should be with a 1M input (common of most amps) and maybe buffering the first few pedals at best, then you're dependent upon your pedals on your pedalboard to drive the line the rest of the way back to the amp. This is a problem as pedals range all over the place, from 50K+ down to 100 ohms (but rarely under 1K). For this reason the output buffer dead last in the signal path in front of the amp is critical because most pedals can't drive even 10ft. of low capacitance cable without some loss, degradation, EQ change, or distortion being introduced. Most FX loops are passive, however some are buffered, but most are poor - and color the signal a lot. The Boss Buffers are poor, BJT output buffers JFET input buffers, 1M (if you're lucky depending on the device) on the input, and 1K on the output normally, never lower than that. You'd be better off running your High Wire as a dual buffer in front of the amp, and getting something like a Klienulator as your FX Loop buffer that will turn a passive loop into an active buffered loop. If you FX loop is already buffered, I'd just get a separate buffer for the return like the Mesa Boogie Stowaway or similar.
@VertexEffectsInc If you would be kind enough to take the time, I need an assessment of my setup, and any opinions or suggestions on what I'm doing wrong/right or could do differently.
I'm using what I'd consider a hybrid setup where I'm running a few analog fx with a Pod Go.
Current signal chain is:
Guitar> JHS Killswitch> Livewire passive a/b/y box([a] channel for d.i. and [b] continues to rest of pedalboard)> MXR Talkbox (which has full bypass mode when engaged)> Original Morley Bad Horsie II> Ibanez Mini Tube Screamer> MXR Noise Gate> Guitar in of Pod Go and using 4cm from Pod Go into my Orange Micro Dark head.
In my Pod Go signal path, I have:
Volume pedal> modulations (Chorus, Flanger, Phaser, Trems)> FX Loop> Amp Simulation> Reverb> Delay> EQ? (Sometimes?*). I'm using a Diezel Amp Simulation in the Pod Go and have my Micro Dark head set up for gorgeous clean tones with the gain at just around 8 o'clock, tone at 3 o'clock and volume at 3 o'clock.
Assuming you're familiar with the Pod Go and its features, how would you go about signal routing with this kind of setup? Amp Simulation before or after FX loop in the PG chain, analog pedals in the PG fx loop, etc?
Your time and response are greatly appreciated!!
Want to run 2 different flavor 2-Channel amps w/ different Boosts in front and e.g. stereo delay in effect loop. Can/do I have to use a “7 cable method”?
Great video, thanks!
Can I use the new MXR tremolo as my output buffer?
The pedal is true bypass by default but it can be switched into buffered bypass.
Input impedance 600 k♎
Output impedance < 140 ♎
That should be fine as long as it’s the very last thing before the amplifier
@@VertexEffectsInc Yeah, it's my last pedal in front of the amp., all the rest is in the fx loop.
@@ciao535 ok, sounds like it'll work
I just picked up one of your modded Boss volume pedals. I haven't received it yet but am wondering, did you put a buffer in that or will I still need a boost going into the amp? (Placing it before time delay effects)
No, but a buffer would improve them
Having built a true wet/dry/wet rig as my COVID project, I can say with 100% certainty that you should only build one if you want the experience of having built one. If you want to play one, buy an AxeFX :). When you factor all parts in, I can say for sure that an AxeFx provides far more for less $. I will say this - going the old school route is a very educational experience and helps you appreciate what modelling gives us.
In my rack, I do all my wet processing in the AXEFX and all my dry with analog pedals into a tube amp. It’s simple and the Axe can handle all my pitch, reverb, and delay with the mixer inside it and do the cab sim for the wet processing.
@@VertexEffectsInc this is what I'm moving towards before the end of the year :). PS - thanks for all of your videos, they were what started me down the W/D/W journey all those months ago!
@@liamMaru I'm so glad! I think you'll really love it!
In your opinion, if I’m using the JHS muffaletta fuzz pedal, should I run that before my buffer? My buffer is on the bottom of my board and I don’t want to re arrange. :/ my set up!
Depends on the mode you run it in and if it actually has silicon transistors.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks dude! I appreciate you!
With the Four Cable Method is a buffer recommended in between the cable coming from the FX loop send and the first pedal in the FX loop? Thanks!
No, not unless it's coming out of the amp on the send.
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks! Love the videos and I appreciate the information
Mason, would the Old Blood Noise Signal Blender serve a different purpose than the Parallelizer? Does that only serve for blending in the FX loop?
It would be similar but it won’t allow for stereo
Thanks for the info Bro...! I was wondering, can you use on a EVH 111 50W 212 6L6 combo.... the MXR EVH 5150 OD Pedal in the effects loop for an boost pedal?
In one of the examples you had a "Hall Of Fame" as the last pedal before the buffer, if that pedal has a "Bonifide Buffer" inside can you take the buffer out?
If you have a high quality buffer inside your pedal, 1M input Z and 100 ohm output Z, then yes, you don't need another buffer.
Does a Cab Sim pedal like the Two Notes Cab M+ have a good buffer, or would I need to add another buffer pedal after the Cab M+?
It's OK...500 ohms I think.
I use a few pedals in front of my amp,then my amp is loaded by a Fryette PS-100…..I want to take the line out of the Fryette,put my line amp signal into my AxeFXIII for the stereo wet,while the Fryette supplies amplification for my center channel…..will I be able to have some dry signal in my wet cabs with the AxeFXIII??…..I don’t particularly care for 100 percent wet…I want some dry signal in the wet cabs…Or would I need something like the Parallelizer to do this?
You can do this all in your AxeFX. You don't need a mixer.
@@VertexEffectsInc so I won’t have any phasing/latency issues putting some dry signal in my wet cabs?…
@@scottpeters4401 no, it works great - you can adjust this in the AxeFX if you're have any difficulty.
@@VertexEffectsInc that is great….I have the AxeFXIII,power amps,etc…just waiting on my two cabs that are being shipped,then I can put it all together……I had always heard you had to have analog dry thru pedals if you weren’t going to run full wet in the stereo cabs…..hence my question about using the AxeFXIII…..happy to hear it will work…
Thanks for the videos @VertexEffects, very helpful! I'd really appreciate your feedback on my rig plans...
I mostly record in my home studio. I use a DI box so I can run my amp live while still being able to record a DI signal into my DAW. I then run line level from my direct out on my amp into my DAW and record both channels at the same time.
I'm running a high gain distortion pedal and a tube screamer into my clean channel on my Revv G20. (btw I tried switching positions between the two mid to high gain pedals and you are absolutely right about the lower gain pedal going after the high gain pedal). Anyway... I want flexibility; the option to switch between the high gain pedal and my amps built-in distortion. Therefore, I'm applying the 4-cable method and using my FX Loop as you recommended.
I want to introduce a gate and looper into my signal chain. The looper for live shows where I might have a third guitar part. Unfortunately you didn't cover these pedals in your video, so I scoured the comments here for answers.
Between some of your replies and my own logic, this is what I was able to come up with...
instrument output>DI box input>DI box instrument level output>tuner input>tuner output>buffer input>buffer send>dynamics input>dynamics output>gate input>gate send>distortion input>distortion output>buffer return>buffer output>amp input>amp send>buffer input>buffer send>gate return>gate output>modulation input>modulation output>time-based input>time-based output>buffer return>buffer output>looper input>looper output>amp return
I think I got it, or I believe I'm pretty close. I'm questionable about the tuner (Peterson strobe) placement, modulation effects being in the FX Loop, the routing of the buffers and placement of the looper. I'm not sure if the DI box is acting as a buffer already. Also, I would assume a gate falls under the dynamic category since it behaves a lot like a compressor but it still makes sense (to me) to keep my other dynamic pedals before and out of the gates FX Loop.
Appreciate your time and love the videos,
Ryan
Familiar with the new Wampler Gearbox? it has an effects loop option... what pedals should go in that loop? i think its been said that Andy Wood has his compressor in the loop of the Gearbox..?
You could pretty much follow the same ideology that spoken about here, presuming how you’re setting the gain of the two devices inside of the effects pedal.
How about the new hotone volume pedal with a tuner? Where do you recommend to have it in the chain? It also does a buffer (not very sure of its buffer’s specs tho 😅)
After watching many of your videos I have a few questions, with impedance sensitive pedals, what do you do with an active bass? They are supposed to be before the input buffer the but the active bass has the input buffer inside of it? if I were using pedals that are buffer bypass (mostly boss pedals) considering the pedal order the worse buffer should go after the good quality input buffer correct? Thanks for these videos they really are helpful, they make a world of difference in building my rig so far
For classic WDW, I’m not sure how to route the stereo outs of my Boss DC-2W or Tricerachorus into the Musicom Parallelizer. The Parallelizer only has a mono input. Do I just go straight into return 1 (L&R)? That leaves me with two loops, one for a micropitch and one for reverb, correct? Then take the two Parallelizer stereo outs into the return 1 of a second Parallelizer for two more loops (for two mono delays or a single stereo delay)?
Also, why not have the chorus in a parallel loop like the other pitch/time effects?
I would put output L from your stereo chorus into the input of the Parallelizer, and output R from your stereo chorus into loop 1 input on the Parallelizer (mix set to max). Then put the Reverb and Pitch in loops 2/3.
Great video! Just wondering if you’d have some advice on where and how to set up vocal pedals, like the TC Helicon harmony singer 2 etc. where in the chain would that be? Should vocal pedals be placed in a chain or not at all?
Hi Mason, I have the PolyTune 3 pedal which has the Bonafide buffer built-in. I am a little confused looking at your diagram. On your diagram you have a polytune after what looks like a dedicated buffer. First of all, do I need a dedicated buffer? Also, polytune pedals, whether version 2 or 3, are true bypass. You keep saying in the video that a true bypass tuner goes first (I am assuming in front of the buffer), and a buffered tuner goes after a buffer. Can you please clarify this? Thank you for the great tips.
No all versions of the Polytune have a buffer option so we have to generalize it. The Polytune has a decent buffer in it (however most guitar tuners do not have good buffers). You could double up the tuner and the input buffer as your first buffer right after the guitar or any impedance sensitive devices if you have a vintage style fuzz for example. You'll still need an output buffer at the end of the chain.
@@VertexEffectsInc I have the Polytune 3 also. Just so that I am clear, the Polytune 3 is OK - no need to put an additional buffer in front of that pedal - I can simply connect the guitar to tuner directly and maybe use a bonafide at the end of the chain (into the amp) is that accurate? Additionally, I have an EHX Ram's Head Reissue. From your 'general' recommendatiion I should put it BEFORE the Polytune 3? Now, for pedals like the UAFX Dream '65 and Ruby (no FX loop) should I place wet effects after those pedals? or in front? I mean neither of those amps originally had FX loops anyway. For the record: my wet effects are simply Chorus, Delay, and Reverb all by TC Electronic and as a matter of fact all have buffered bypass - does that mean anything?
What if I tried to make a w/d/w rig by splitting the signal with a mimiq doubler? Basically I’d send one output from the doubler to my “dry” amp and the second output too my “wet” effects. I would then then split the signal a second time from the collider to the effects loop of my other two amps.
Think this would work?
incredible video, they are a school for many guitarists, a question...where should I put my looper (Ditox4) in this chain? greetings from Chile
If your using the compressor on a bass on a simple one line system, would you put it in the dynamics area? I saw the dyna comp up there and was wondering about its position here versus the more complicated position in the wet?
Depends if you want to use it as a limited or as a compressor. Many bass players will use it later in the chain for a more "studio" sound after their distortion and drive style effects.
Thank you for this.
I’m new to the guitar playing scene. Haven’t even gotten my guitar yet🤣😂😆
I don’t want a speaker cab yet. I want to preamp the signal with the option of using effects pedals or not and out put straight to my interface. Is that an option with this. And what would you or anyone in the comments recommend.
Hi Rig Doctor,
to me you are not mentioning THE issue with 4CM. Ground loops... Get 2 cases I spent many time on it and IMO worth sharing with other musicians.
First was my strymon mobius. I'm using it in pre/post mode. but the pedal is grounded to same ground. And it was creating a terrible buzz due to ground loop. I've unsoldered and isolated with tape the ground of my patch cable plug into right out and it solved the issue. But this is common tricky issue when using a stereo pedal in pre/post mode. There are maybe better solution I don't know.
Second was having a patch bay within my pedalboard, using SP400 (and my strymon mobius as well...). Good but with the given angle to the plugs, the metal plug of the SP400 were touching one another... creating a common ground creating a big ground loop... Put some tape on each one solved my issue. But for next PB I'll use for the patch SP4S
All in all ground has to be considered when mounting a PB in 4CM. And if there is any ground link between front of the amp ground and FX loop ground, this may cause sever buzzing.
The pre/post thing is more of the issue. There can be work arounds to float the pre/post if that's the intent on the manufacturer going in, but not something that's inherent in 4CM (in terms of ground loops). Sometimes you can also mitigate the loop area based on location of the Mobius (or fill in the black 4CM pre/post device) or based on how the cables are dressed. I did this for Paul Jackson Jr.'s rig with a GT1000 with no isolation transformers and no ground loop, but all pre/post 4CM. I'm not sure I understand your solution for isolating the Mobius. A better solution if it's it's really the pedal is just have some sort of iso-splitter on the return, even something small with a SP-66 10K-10K ISO transformer will work. For the Interface, you'll 1) want to use isolated jacks (like the Neutrik switched jacks I normally recommend for our interface DIY tutorials - and just ground the main guitar input and float the others). Secondly, you can heat shrink around the SP400's or any pancake or R/A plug, you can do every one, but every-other is fine too, so you'll still get separation. Or you could go with SPS4's. I hear you on ground loops, but to me a lot of them are self induced and not necessarily the pedals, especially in a mono system, 4CM or not. This video is really about signal path - not ground loops. We will do something along these lines in the future about ground loops and galvanic isolation, and I appreciate you reminding me of this so we can put this on our list for future video discussions!
@@VertexEffectsInc Thanks for the comment. Regarding my solution, I just unsoldered the ground of my patch cable on the post ouput of the mobius and put some heat shrink around the ground wire. That's what you call float? I will have a look at the iso-splitter. Regarding the interface I built such one on my previous pedalboard and it worked great but here I'm switching to a Rockboard pedalboard and I'm using their mod1 interface. It would be absolutely great if you can do a specific topic on ground loops. Thanks to your high quality videos, I now have a great quality board, but had to fight with ground for hours to grant full success ;)
@@weepingplume typically floating would just mean cutting it away. We have several DIY interface videos, diagrams, and drill templates, all free, that you can loop up on our channel if you want to upgrade from the Rockboard. We will definitely get into ground loops soon!
Hi Mason, it was an awesome explanation. But I got a question here, how do you apply the 4 cables method with foot switch midi controller pedal like boss es5 or musicomlab.
Thanks man!
Use a TRS cable and program it into the controller. It's not really a signal path thing.
Thanks again for this video. I have a question for your opinion on a set up for a newbie to set up a board knowing that I am trying to replicate Def Leppard tones and Van Halen, Boston if there are devices to drop in your sound path for a 4 plug set up? I have no idea one brand from another and if you have a preference that you could suggest for what you would build to replicate that sound I would greatly appreciate it.
New to Guitar and totally lost with pedals and have not started set up yet, but I totally appreciate your videos and any and all suggestion you have. You are awesome at explaining this and I am so glad I found this on u tube.
Have a great day
A lot of this will be your amplifier. You can supplement with things like phaser, chorus, delay, reverb, to complete the sound. What's your amp?
@@VertexEffectsInc I have a Marshall I think DP 40 , Boss Katana MkII 50 and a spider V 100. I don't use Marshall much because i cant seem to figure out how to get the right sound out of it, but everyone says that the Marshall is the better of all, but i cant figure it out.
FYI, @3:05 in this video Mason verbally contradicts the prequel video. I'm pretty sure the image is correct and the words were misspoken. Meaning, the signal should pass thru hi gain dist before low gain OD type pedals.
Yes, you're correct. I said it backwards.
@@VertexEffectsInc thanks again for the savage content! This is my fav pedal show. Clear, concise, and massively informative. You Rock :)
What about running 4CM on a channel switching amp that has a built in gain boost on the OD channel as well as an outboard tube saturation (Koch Amps The Greg)? And where should I put a noise gate that has its own fx loop?
Depends what it is, I go through both scenarios in this video...please re-watch the part on noise gates.
I am using a small tube preamp that has no FX loops, however I have a Mission Control pedal in my chain, can you give me some tips on how to achieve the explanation on my set up, cheers, I am in Oakland as well!!!
You can head over to the consulting page on www.therigdr.com, there are options for one to one consults there
Would the signal path in an amp with built in effects look like this? Preamp - fxloop - amp reverb - power amp?
Depends
I’ve learned a lot. So, now the next step 😊 where you’d put a loopstation pedal in the WDW chain? I’m guessing that a Looper at the end it’ll never replay the distorted sounds… on the other side a Looper before the effect loop return from the amp will loose the right wet sound…
Any hints?
Just wondering why an additional buffer needs to added if your tuner has a built in buffer? Does it depend on yhe number of pedals?
The second time he mentions this, he says that the input buffer is a high quality buffer. So I’m assuming this implies that the tuner’s buffer is lower quality.
I’m not sure this is the correct answer; I am wondering the same. But what I mentioned is probably the answer.
Just got myself a GFI Enieqma based on your other videos. Would love to know how to place it in the Wet Dry Wet signal chain, as you have mentioned it can be used in front end and back end of signal path.
What are Input and Output Buffers?
Any recommendations on some good models i can buy?
Awesome awesome video Mason. Thank you for sharing your knowledge. Instead of the Cab Sim, if I’m using two small combo amps, would the delay feed the return of each combo? Or would it be going into the front of the combo amps?
If both combo amps have effects loops and you want to run stereo effects loops, then the wet effects will go into the two effects returns. If you're running wet/dry/wet and you want to use them as power amps, then yes, only the FX Return (power amp input), do not use the input of the amp.
I am still just a big dummy. I can understand an effects Loop being necessary to an amp that brings some dirt to the equation. But I don't think you really need the effects Loop if your amp is not even giving any kind of gain or EQ color to what you're accomplishing. As I stumbled about to try to recreate a wet dry wet sound I found something pretty cool. I ran my gain stages to the front of the amp. The send of my effects Loop goes to my C9 pedal which then splits the signal one is dry and totally unaffected the other is also the same until you click the organ on. That second line runs through all of my time based effects. Both of those lines run into an A B Y Switcher but they're running into the outputs rather than the input and then I only have one combined line of the two running somewhat parallel and yet mingled back to the return. It's a kind of a neat wet and dry set up. ( I did not have a line outbox so I did the best I could with what I have) I am still getting the time effect on my phone even when I don't have the organ button turned on it's pretty cool
Tone not phone, lol"
I have purchased the components to build one of your DIY Input/Output Buffers with an isolated Tuner Jack. I am thinking that will work good regardless of the internal buffering of the tuner itself. My first question is, how do I determine the gain rating of a distortion/overdrive pedal?
If you have the Tuner out any issue presented by the tuner will be resolved if it's fed off the input buffer. The gain I would think about in terms of saturation of the signal. More saturation, closer to the guitar, less saturation, further from the guitar.
@@VertexEffectsInc Yes I get that. Let me ask the question a different way. Instead of a RAT and TS9, let's say I have a Tumnus Deluxe, Big Tweed, and Steel String MKII. How do I figure out what the Gain Rating is for each pedal so I know what order to put them in?
I might also mention that I am a Mechanical Engineer not an Electrical one, so some of this might need to be spelled out for me. Despite the fact that I am in my 50's I just picked up my first guitar in December and started play. I have spent the last several months trying to figure out the basics of pedal board design. I started with Rick Beato's video but all it gave me was Pitch, Tone, Modulation and Time. He failed big time where he didn't bother to say which pedal type fell in to witch category. I found a different video from the Pedal Show that followed this line of thinking, but gave me the info on which pedal type fell into which category. I have also been able to glean a lot of good information from Josh over at JHS Pedals. Just as I think I am getting a handle on this you come out with these 2 videos and throw 2 more base line configurations into the mix. Considering that I have a hand-me-down Amp from my brother to get started with and it has an effects loop. Your explanation of the 4 cable method has been very helpful.
@@ADHuss1 I'm not sure that my answer is any different. I wouldn't set them based on the gain they're capable of, but rather how you set them or how you stack them. If you don't stack your OD pedals then the order doesn't matter.
@@VertexEffectsInc as of right now the only 2 pedal that I know how to stack are the RAT and TS-9 and that is because you said the RAT is High Gain and the TS-9 is Low Gain. Until you tell me how to quantify the Gain level of other drive pedals I have no clue how to stack them according to the method you have described. How do I determine which pedal is a higher gain and which is a lower gain when stacking Drive pedals?
Your the Man!!! Thanks
Glad to help
Great, detailed video Mason! New to the wet/dry/wet talk (been Kemper for years). Would the Two Notes CAB M+ work in place of the Suhr Line out? ie, Mesa Mark IV to 2notes (line out to wet effects, XLR used for mono signal). Thanks for the help Mason, great stuff!!!
Tony, ideally you still have the Suhr for isolation and polarity and just use the Cab M as the last thing in the wet chain of effects, not the first.
If you are running the impedance sensitive pedals into a loop switcher, you can just run the guitar straight into the buffer, yeah?
Ideally you’d want to use the buffer inside of the switcher and then put it in bypass when you have the impede insensitive devices engaged or switched on through the programming. This way the input buffer can be turned off when a fuzz is on.
Just a question, is the parallelizer input stereo? I assume yes from your video, so it means it has a try input ... correct?
No, but they have one coming that’s is or you can leave return loop 1 on all the time and second input. This was more of a theoretical mixer - I think the Xotic C Blender is currently the only stereo in and out mixer out there.
@@VertexEffectsInc many thanks, hope to get soon a parallelizer with stereo input
@@alexcross9851 or you can sacrifice the return from loop 1
@@VertexEffectsInc yes, The only issue is that I should send only the wet signal so I could use the mobius but not the boss Dimension.
Rack Mount flangers, Chorus, Phaser units back in the 70's had Line Level selectable input and output switches for effect loops line level signals to drive the modulation rack unit without distorting it. If you try to use instrument level signals guitar pedal in effects loop they will drive overloading the inputs causing distorted input signals in the guitar pedal which are not going to sound good. I think Frank Zappa used most of his rack mount modulation effects in the effects loop because the rack mount units has line level signals switching for the inputs and outputs. Running guitar pedals at +18vdc or +24vdc helps when using them in effects loops because +9vdc Clips the positive and negative cycles sooner lower headroom is bad when using effects loops.
Some did, not all, and there were also no standards for the levels coming out of the amplifiers either, there still isn't. Some rack gear could swing -20 to +4, so could do -10 to +4, some could to any combination thereof. Some would just do +4 only. It was all over the place. Guitar pedals that are designed for line level generally already have their power requirements known externally, and I wouldn't start throwing 18+ volt into the pedals unless you actually know it can take it.
@@VertexEffectsInc The problem with Noise gates in the effects loops is that it doesn't work good with compressors in the effects loops. I like putting a compressor in the effects loop to add that SAG but the hissing of the noise floor from the amplifiers gain hiss is hard to get rid of using a noise gate with a compressor in the amplifiers effects loop. Anyway to fix this problem?
@@VertexEffectsInc Since various types of amplifiers effect loops can be in the range from signal levels of -10dbm to +4dbm that its best to put a vertex buffer pedal in the amplifiers effects loop to normalize and balance out the effect loops signal level? before it drives any guitar pedals
@@waynegram8907 did you try gating the compressor as well?
@@waynegram8907 ideally get something that really for effects loop specifically like the Kleinulator!
Hi doc, ge7 for solo boost, after or before delay? No loop amp, any suggestion? Cheers.
GE7 won't work in most loops without clipping. I'd put it after ODs
@@VertexEffectsInc ah, I'm glad I read this. I have a combo amp and was considering putting a GE7 in the loop but I'll just move it before the pre amp. (Into the "front of the amp")
Amp will have the distortion. I understand this means it will drive it more and won't be just a volume boost, but that's ok.
Kudos on you sharing your knowledge and helping everyone in these comments!
I have a question, 5CM(Stereo 4cm) is like a wet/dry/wet with two amps, guitar and pedals go to amp input and the send of that amp goes mono to delay and reverb in stereo and those split in stereo to the return of amp 1 and the return of amp 2, so is using the original dry guitar sound in amp 1 but delays and reverb in stereo panned to amp 1 and 2(100% wet sound), my question is, is the sound similar with a 5CM rig with two amps to a Wet/Dry/Wet rig with three amps? Or is 5cm a reduced version of wet dry wet?
5CM and Wet/Dry/Wet are very similar sounding, yet. The only think you can't do is isolate the dry signal with its own channel in the mix separately from the stereo wet signals. If that's not critical, you're getting very close to what the intent of a wet/dry/wet rig was intended to be.
I know it's more a one off kinda thing, however what about when running several amps on something like a Radial JD7 Injector? Apparently I've been told more people use them then I'm aware of lol. It just seems a whole different ballpark when running multiple amps with 1 pedalboard through a system like this?
Buffer before or after volume pedal if your volume is first in the chain?
Nothing changes about the buffering, you can move the volume pedal to either location but the buffer still needs to be first
I have a TC Electronic Sentry Noise Gate.
Where should I place this pedal in the signal chain using the 4 Cable Method?
FRONT OF AMP
1. Guitar
2. Dunlop Classic Wah
3. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer
4. TC Electronic Polytune 3
5. Digi Tech Whammy V
6. TC Electronic Hyper Gravity Compressor
7. TC Electronic Spark Booster (Channel 1)
8. TC Electronic Spark Booster (Channel 2)
9. Line 6 DM4 (not used with Boost)
10. Line 6 MM4
11. TC Electronic Viscous Vibe
12. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer
13. Amp input 5150 III EL34 50 Watt Combo
FX LOOP
1. Send
2. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer
3. Lehle Volume Pedal
4. BOSS GE-7 Equalizer
5. TC Electronic Dreamscape Flanger
6. TC Electronic Arena Reverb
7. TC Electronic Flashback 2 Delay
8. TC Electronic Alter Ego V2 Vintage Echo
9. TC Electronic Bona Fide Buffer
10. Return
The video explains this exactly in the noise gate section. Re-watch and let us know if you have questions for clarification. Also if your Polytune 3 has a buffer you can loose the Bonafide buffer before it. Also you don't need a Buffer after the FX Send.
Hey Mason, where would a Digitech Drop pedal go in a rig using 4 cable method?
Ok, next level: wdw, but split to 2 amps for using 2 different gain sounds simultaneously... so like a total of 4 cabs/power sections, with the goal of sounding like double-tracked guitars live, basically. Not that I have the resources for this, but just want to challenge you. Lol... oh... OR splitting off an octave pedal to a bass amp that might also have a wet channel, or even crazier, feed into the wet signal path for certain parts as desired.
It’s not really wet dry wet, that’s just some sort of a split mono system or split stereo system. You could just as well follow the previous video that we did with serial mono systems.
Can I put something like a Ditto X2, which is true bypass, *after* my output buffer (a Strymon Big Sky) without compromising tone?
Should be OK, if it’s on its 100 ohm output z as I recall
@@VertexEffectsInc Great, thanks
@@flattedsixth4547 no problemo!
Great video!!!!!
Thanks for watching!
Just a stupid question...Eddie Van halen was using the PCM70,2 SDE3000,Eventide H3000 without any mixer...how could he place them in parallel...? were they in series...?
The H3000 and the PCM70 were in a Rane SM26 Stereo Line Mixer, then on the stereo output of the mixer, the Roland SDE3000s were fed which you could have the dry signal (weren't 100% wet). If you use the DELAY only output you'd get 100% wet, but if you used the "MIXED" output you'd get dry and wet in the signal.
i have a pedal at the front of my chain a kingsley page thats on 98 % of the time would i still need a buffer at the front?
Depends with the input impedance is
Hey, doc, thank you for this in-depth explanation that you call “quick and simple“! Super detailed and concise to the lesser knowledgeable like myself. I have only one question about W-D-W where you show the diagram sending into the dry amp, then it goes to a line out box which will send into the wet effects chain and into the dry cab itself. What exactly is that line out box? Any models you could suggest? Sorry but I’m new at this! Thank you!
Watch the video we just posted on Line Out boxes last week...it'll help explain this. I think the title is something like "The Best Upgrade I've Made to My Rig In Years" and has a line out box on the thumbnail with a $50 sign and an arrow pointing to it.
@@VertexEffectsInc wow!!!! You answered my comment!!! Thank you so much for the info and all you do for us! Bar none, your explanations of the technical aspects of guitar playing utilizing pedal boards, and the whole equipment involved into creating a great tone, are priceless! I’ve been working on my finances since COVID messed it up, but promise to help your channel in a few months if all goes well. There are a few TH-cam content creators who deserve us giving back a little to improve your life! Thank you very much!
@@VertexEffectsInc just watched it and it clears out the question, sorta. Btw you already earned your own playlist in my library a while back and that video was there already.
I bought a pedalboard a while back, right when I started watching your videos, and you were the inspiration behind it! You gave us courage to delve into the realms of sound effects!
One suggestion I have, based on the fact that I haven’t seen anybody offering such video, it’s a series of videos showing which effects go with great songs throughout history. I’ve seen you and others showing an artists and their pedals but, for people who doesn’t play out are trying to learn, a detailed list of effects involved to achieve the tone we are after, would be awesome. I bought two of your boost pedals a while back and love them, perhaps you can start a series of pedalboards based on a certain genre, or artist/band, that you could sell with pedals included, maybe some band colors or graphics to make it look awesome. It’s just an idea. Thanks again.
That Shur/Bray is getting speaker output? How else are you driving the dry cab?
Speaker in and thru. The cabinet is still connected to the dry amp.
@@VertexEffectsIncso .....from the speaker output to the cab? Then a separate line out to the Suhr/Bray? On the schematic is looks like it is speaker out to Suhr/Bray and then to the cab.
@@VertexEffectsInc I would imagine that the Poweramp signal would be a tad bit too hot for "pedal", but it seems to work for you. I have tried the Bray like that and the Cabzeus did not like it much. Even on a very low level from the Bray.
@@peterknicked speaker cable from head to the line out box speaker in. Cab speaker cable into the speaker thru of the line out box. Then regular guitar cable out of the line output on the line out box feeding your wet effects and/or mixer.
@@peterknicked the line out box has a pot on it, you can attenuate the line level down to whatever you need.
I wonder how you would recommend to create a "fx loop" with just an interface, I read a DI box is necessary?
Explain what you mean, I’m not sure what you’re asking
@@VertexEffectsInc If I use my interface with a AMP plugin only, how do I "emulate" an fx loop? because if not I'm just putting all my pedals in front of that virtual amp :(
@C J Yeah, I know that. The thing is... I don't have an amp, I just use plugins for that, so that's why I dunno how to send the preamp tone to my pedals from the interface (?) and then back to the interface to the power section, all with a plugin.
You could use an insert out of your interface
Can you help me out of the path of a fortin zuul with a splitter/buffer? Where would the tuner/wah go and where would I put my distortion/chorus/flanger/delay ?
What are you using it for...most guys are using it as a way to feed the Key input of their gates.
how would you place pedals like the MicroCosm or pedals that have multiple effects like the Black Hole symmetry that includes fuzz, reverb and delay and last question I have difficult time to place a signal routing control like the Mission Control from Spaceman effects and also what pedals are best to use inside the effects loop that this pedal creates, sorry for so many questions, thank you for your insights
Probably with the time-based stuff since it's more reverb, delay, looper style pedal.
Wait so you would recommend a dedicated buffer as opposed to a tuning pedal that is bufferred?
Absolutely, most pedals don't have quality specs for input and output impedance.
@@VertexEffectsInc even the peterson stobeastomp? For bass
This might be a really stupid question, but the (WET)FOH can also be CABS rights? What about FRFR speakers? And why would you say the effect loop's usefulness is nullified when its the pedals generating the distortion, isn't that what most people use which is pedals generating distortions?
I am new to all this so ,Out from a mono pedal I plug into the input R of the stereo pedal ,I hear only one of the two amps .if I remove the cable from the stereo pedal and plug it into the other input ( Mono) I hear only the other amp. Trying to get volume from both. running two cables from the stereo pedal L /R , do I get some kind of split cable to go from Mono pedal into both stereo pedals inputs??
I tried a designated buffer, but even at the end of the signal chain it would really mess up my Fuzz pedals. O.D was fine, but even my Muffroom sounded terrible.
This was after trying it at the front of my chain which sounded worse. Is it buffer, or fuzz as a choice? Every other guitarists I asked conceded that buffers and Fuzz don't mix. Is that an essential truth, or is there something we're all missing?
List the order of effects and the sequence from guitar to amp. Typically if you have an output buffer at the end of the chain, your pedals earlier in the chain will be seeing other buffers inside of pedals or by way of pedals being turned on, that you might not be hearing the output buffer only as the active effect in the chain. Could be something else. Equally, what is the buffer? Quality matters...most buffers are poor, some are OK, very few are great.
Now I need the video about how to connect 2 high gain amps in parallel with analog delays in the loops without having 50hz noise getting loud. Damned power supplies problems !!!
You could use some galvanic isolation on one amp. Something like the Lehle P-Split would be a good option right into the input of the amp on one of your two amplifiers.
@@VertexEffectsInc P-Split-II already engaged + Radial in the 2 loops. OK with clean, but do nothing with high gain :(
@@toom6087when the amps are in series is it equally loud?
@@VertexEffectsInc Never tried in series. I use 2 Dual Rectifier 2 chan from the 90's (parallel fx loop for the delays) and each amp has its 4x12 cab. In each loop there is a RJM Rack Gizmo for mono analog delays powered by Voodoo Lab Iso5 (on rack trays). I made the cables (snake) with SommerCables and Neutrik gold.
I want the amps parallel (not w/d/w) because I don't set the preamps the same way on each side. One for the attack, one for the low end.
Everything is powered by an old Rocktron Power Station. And the signal is splited by the Lehle (I tried TheGigRig Humdinger too). And in the FX loops, the signal goes thru a Radial StageBug SB-6. And... I still have the problem in high gain. The 60hz buzzzzz going loud, too loud.
OC I tried with other amps. 3 chan Rectos, Soldano SLO, Bogner Ecstasy, etc... Same problem. I guess it comes from the power supplies... Maybe should I try with the RackGizmos out of the rack case too...
@@toom6087 might help you isolate if it's the amp itself or your set up if you try it one at a time without the parallel set up.
Let's go!😁
Thanks for watching!
how would I use a loop switcher in my rig? Does the order matter in this situation
I just noticed a problem with the wet/dry/wet chain. If you want to use a compressor and eq through the line out, it's only affecting the wet left and right sides and your dry center will probably sound off in comparison. This is where I think a stereo rig has an advantage since you have the dry sound in both cabinets being affected by the compressor and eq and would probably sound more harmonious.
Correct, it will only be on the wet processing side, not on the dry amp side. The other way you could get it on both sides it to do it in the effects loop (since the line out is still printing the preamp and power amp to the wet effects).
Thanks, very informative
Glad you enjoyed it!