It's a shame Citroën/Peugeot don't build cars any more, they say the new 408 is going to be the saloon reinvented, what the people want the manufacturers build I guess. Great video again, more BX content would be appreciated.
The 408 has actually been already unveiled and honestly to me it's just an uglier Citroen C5x, or it's basically just Renault Arkana from Peugeot. In other words, nothing reinvented yet again.
Yeah, it's a shame. Mercedes and Hyundai have both realised ultra-aerodynamic electric sedans (or liftbacks) recently. I think the original DS reimagined as an ultra-aerodynamic electric car would be a wonderful thing (with hydractive suspension of course). It was never really known for the engines (AFAIK), so being electric would be perfect. As it is, the actual DS9 that exists is such a boring three-box saloon, what's the point of it?
People love it because the car is a little rare, not just in the UK, but across the world. It seems super hyper cars are popular but so are rare cars possibly within reach of most normal humans. Also your theory about the gas and regulation does make sense. I doubt they would've built such a complex system to allow for loss of gas, as it could be wildly different from each sphere. It would only take a small change in PSI for the effects to be felt. As for oil, I've seen much worse. Great video, and your humour/sarcasm makes for good viewing.
My -04 had lost about 5bar per sphere in 16 years and 190000km s. The C6 is supposed to be more sensitve on the spheres though, i'd change at least the rear ones. As they are prone to create bounciness
Great video, thanks for making. I think the main difference between C2 and C3 oil is that C2 provides better fuel economy but it’s film strength is not as strong. C3 provides better engine protection.
A general rule of thumb I use when changing paper element oil filters is that if the filter housing points upwards, as it does in your C6, then it's very likely that it'll dribble oil into the sump as you undo it. With that design I always change the filter before I drain the oil.
The procedure I do is undo the filter housing a few turns which lets it drain, then drain the oil. By the time the oil has drained the filter will have drained as well which lets you take it out without spilling oil everywhere.
I've had a couple of cars with the SC-80 gearbox fitted, it's well documented that the gear box doesn't like heat or water for that matter lol. I fitted an external transmission cooler to my Vectra and it's been absolutely fine, theses boxes like to be kept cool and the type of cooler that is part of the main coolant radiator just isn't up to the job, plus they rot out and kill the gearbox.
On one of my favourite techical channels (AutoStrong-M) they dissected a 2.7 HDI and talked at lenght about the oil for the engine. To keep it short, they attribute the major crankshaft issues this engine is infamous for to wrong oil being used. Specifically, the oil should be B3 or C3, 5W40 or even 10W40! Jaguar and Land Rover recommend 5W30 B5 oil, which destroys the crankshaft.
I was in an auto parts store getting oil for my car and the salesperson told me that the new Alfa Romeo engines were made to such close tolerances that it is supercritical to give it the correct oil or suffer the consequences. Oils ain't oils goes the saying.
Helped my brother service his 12yr old Focus with the Ford/Peugeot/Citreon 1.6 diesel engine. I too was surprised at the recessed sump plug and thought there must be 1/2 gallon left that can't drain out.
Took the sump off my wife's 206 1.6 HDi. Is about 300-400ml from memory (did measure it at the time) I modified the sump to push the plug down - from an "inny" to an "outy" to borrow belly button terminology as hated the thought of that last sludgy bit remaining at every change. I think - and is only a guess - that it's recessed so that if the sump is grounded out there's less chance of the plug being ripped out which of course would turn a bad day into a terrible one rather quickly!
I think this car is popular because it's exotic and exciting but still attainable. SM is more of both but really is unobtanium at this point for most people. Wonder how a peugeot 607 video series would compare to this. Not expecting you to make one though.
So you know, there is a quite popular YT channel that is called POA which main journalist is a BIG fan of a C6, he made many episodes about it last years. This is how ive found you...So maybe you got some of his audience ? Well, thank you for your videos anyway, all good !!!
I never owned a car with the grey spheres (Can't afford to get myself into a C6 and I don't care about C5s that much), but I thought one of the main differences between the green and grey spheres is that the grey ones are "sealed for life", meaning they don't have the hole in the top like the green spheres, which is also why the grey ones don't have the little nub on the top. So from my understanding they are not refillable like the green ones used to be. They meant to last longer, but unfortunately once they need servicing, the only option is to have them replaced. Or I could be totally wrong, I'm no mechanic. But I figured it'd be worth mentioning in case it is true so that you don't waste your time taking them all off just to find out they're not serviceable afterwards.
I think the sticky out bit (which was handy to yank the old filter out with) has an O-ring. I think also said O-ring plugs a hole - hence, as the filter is withdrawn, the hole is uncovered and all oil in the filter housing is allowed to drain through the newly uncovered hole down into the sump. Or to put it another way, yes I think the book would have told you: loosen oil filter housing ahead of loosening sump plug. More specifically think it is loosen (but don't remove) the filter housing is draining all the time it takes you to get car raised and oil plug out. Then lower car, remove now completely empty housing and new filter as penultimate job (ahead of important splosh oil around the full perimeter of the filler cap position despite best efforts not to spill the stuff!) Matt
I finished an oil change on my Smart Roadster just 10 minutes before I watched this - my Smart oil filter is tiny - about the size of the filter in a handheld vacuum cleaner. The Smart can be a pain with some things, but the oil change was a pleasure!
Morning Richard ,a quick tip when changing the filter next time clean the housing out and fit the filter element to the base using the locating lug apply some clean oil to the top of the filter and then screw the housing gently home ,not wishing to seem like I'm teaching you to such eggs ,but I find that gentle air line pressure feed into the block via the dipstick tube works very well and is a great deal less messy ,cheers Coggins.
I did clean the housing out quite thoroughly, to be fair (I just didn't show it) but I didn't even think about fitting the filter in that order. Only ever really do canister ones normally.
Great vid as always, I have a few tips that might help you get a smooth ride out of your C6. My info is based on a C5 X7 (Fixed dampers) 18inch rims and on comfort mode. Be precise with tire pressure and always fill to the cars specs and factor in expansion when hot. 1-2 psi over makes a big difference. Definitely bleed out any air in the suspension system via front and back bleed nipples. I found air in the system makes the ride harder. You are right about the ride being disappointing after you reset to factory height. My 2009 C5 X7 wasn't right after setting back to factory height and it must be caused by pressure loss. I spent many hours driving and fine tuning the height manually to compensate for the slight pressure loss. I found the first 1klm from startup to be a little rough. After 1klm the car raises to its desired "middle" height setting on a normal road surface. This height is where you want the maximum comfort and do not overshoot as 3-5mm is a night and day difference. To high = dash and interior rattling and poor isolation from small road imperfections but good on big bumps at high speed. To low = falling into medium size potholes, bottoming out on big ones and residual bounce afterwards but great over small imperfections and interior stops rattling. I started off high and very slowly dropped it down tiny increments until I found the sweet spot at the cars "middle" ride height setting. This takes days over a variety of different road conditions but well worth it. My C5 now floats along and steps up to the higher ride height only when the road has big waves and not single wheel potholes unless huge. Hope that helps :)
I found woth my C5 that what brand of tyres used made a massive impact on ride- I fitted Michelin and car was transformed like night and day- yes they are more expensive but for ride comfort, road noise reduction and grip money well spent. I dont think the spheres will be a problem- mine were on their way out when I sold the car and were the next repair item- the ride became firmer not softer or wallowy so the theory in this video is wrong in my experience.
@@michaeldavis7199 Yes the Michelins are the only way to go. I think the best way is to test all 7 spheres for pressure loss refill or replace and manually fine tune the ride height for the cars middle height level. In my experience the height setting it's very very touchy especially running low profile tires.
@@imac3355 Well in my case I bought goodyear tyres (I had bridgestones before that) and that made a huge difference for me. The old ones were runflat so that means firmer sidewall so no RF tyres for comfort. I think it also has to do with rubber compound, the softer the rubber the more comfortable ride it is.
@@tomaskusnir2374 The tire type and compound make a big difference especially for lower profiles. I only use Michelins and inflate to 34psi all round cold. Once hot the pressure is around 35psi which is what the C5 requests.
Just a thought when changing the oil filter I always replace the filter onto the knob locating it in the filter housing first then just screw the cover on ,never tried it that way before
Maybe it´s totally unrelated to your gearbox problem but...... I´ll tell the story anyway. We had a Peugeot 607 automatic as a company car. After repairs on the transmission (I think it was a ZF 4HP20) the car wouldn´t engage in 1st gear after coming to a stop. Letter it turned out to be that somebody who was working on the transmission with the transmission diagnostics left the W(inter) Mode enganged - and you couldn´t turn it on/off with the W/S switch. So......if you have the diagnostics (or know someone who has it) check it first.
I’ve just seen the C6 in the flesh (so to speak)! Very excited to see it pulling out of a T junction as I drove past and gave Rich a thumbs up. - poor Rich looked at me like I was a turnip speaking French. @UPnDOWN - that was me in the blue Lotus 11 replica. Just a big fan of your channel. :-)
Ahh, I see! I'm terrible with faces/names, but I remember cars. I quite often see customers round here but they sometimes change car I get really confused! Looked good though, I thought it was a Samio Spider when it was coming down the road.
@@UPnDOWN never been a customer but found your channel about a year ago with one of your Vecky vids (not sure how/why I found it, but glad I did). I’m only about a mile from your work and last night I was on a fish and chip run. :-) It’s a Westfield XI with a 1380cc A series engine - 110hp and 540kg. The abnormal bit is it’s not British Racing Green. Not quite C6 levels of refinement. Like you, I remember cars more than faces- although only unusual cars, not the modern grey boxes. My dad even used to remember the year of his wedding (1964) by saying it was B reg. I saw the C6 first then thought ‘this must be you’ and then recognised your face.
Re the dip stick I have lost count of the number of cars that have "unreadable" dip sticks (at least by an idiot like me. Why don't they make the bit that's between high and low level a bright neon colour?
@@UPnDOWN I have a lot of kilometers in a Citroën SM but I will prefer the CX GTI. If you came to Portugal I would like to invate you. Thank 🇵🇹 I've leave in Oporto.
I have to say, about floating like a boat, it is something that disappears when you drive a bit faster and without respect to suspension. Then it uses it's mass. It is simpy calibrated in hardware to faster driving than a CX wich is great in corners, if you are not afraid of the body roll, for example. XM is to "confused" over bumps in corners because he did not have double wishbone in front, like CX and C6 have. When you drive it like a boss, it is like a flying carpet. And really stable in corners.
Wouldn't fully agree there, to be honest. I thought the XM was the best-all round ride I've had in a Citroen. The CX was smooth and soft - wonderfully so, but the body-roll DOES become an issue if it reaches the bump stops! As for the C6, I'm reserving my thoughts for the POV drive video :-)
Enjoying the updates. Same underdamped feeling in my C5 estate which has virtually the same suspension except for the variable damping system (AMVAR) that's on your C6. Good idea to test the spheres and I wonder if you can call Pleiades hydraulics as they are experts in Citroen hydraulics and possibly have developed a system for regassing grey saucer spheres with a fitted Tecnosir type valve. I also bought all new struts from Poland, cost quite a bit to get to Australia however you might not need them unless leaking, losing pressure after sitting, or worn rubbers like in my C5. I also have 5L of new LDS fluid. I think this might make the biggest difference to the damping because if the fluid has lost its viscosity then it would make sense for the fluid to flow through the damping valves with less restriction thus less damping. Lucky you have the program to depressurise the system, I have to work out which valve to open to do that manually. You could replace the fluid when you have the spheres off and see if that makes a difference. Also the AMVAR valves I read on the C6 forum can get sticky so I would be very interested if you got around to removing those and showing us how they work. You do look busy enough however!
This 6 speed box is used in many psa products unless you come to a dead stop it never goes back into first gear. It's not a sporty gear box in any way it a leisurely turn of speed it does get caught when slowing and then flooring. It's not a fault
Yet another entertaining and informative video from the top man but I must admit I'm glad I didn't buy one although I considered it in the past, far too complex but still a brilliant piece of engineering
@@UPnDOWN I do agree with you my current car is a Skoda Superb which is a great car, but the modern technology is beyond my hammer and screwdriver skillset I do regret not buying a C6
Saab 93 Dispsticks are just a flipping vague on the Petrol Turbo unit. With oil a lot of service centres now only suck the oil out which means a lot of the ',good chunky stuff' stays in the sump.' Speaking to my oil supplier a lot of this thin oil is to do with MPG rather than actually the engine be at its best on it. Manufacturers also pushed by the fleet market to extend intervals which won't benefit the private man for longevity if he sticks to them.
Maybe putting an additive for the transmission in will help…. I know ZF recommend that you use the original transmission oil and just change the filter and if you can’t save the fluid they say put a additive in…. It could be the same for the Aisen unit….. I been in the trade 20 years give or take but it’s always helped with that kind of behaviour especially when the oil is warm and thin…..
The do not use a wrench instruction is for closing not opening. But actually I think it also says 25nm or something like that. It used to do on the peugeots. and yes you should open the oil filter before the sump plug. I dont remeber exactly how but the plunger in the oil filter housing is supposed to open and let the oil into the sump.
I can believe there are "Ford" badges over some of the parts even though this is a PSA unit. This year, owing to needs must, chose to service my 7 year old Mk3.5 Focus with the 1.5 TDCi unit in it myself (with assistance from a mate who is a vehicle technician, was Citroen now VW). This, I'm led to believe, was a Ford in-house "start-again" affair that replaced the PSA 1.6 "HDi" unit fitted to earlier Focus'. However it was noted that fuel, oil and air filters were all (it seems) carried over from the 1.6 HDi and have PSA logos stamped all over them as well as the Sump/Sump plug designs looking awfully familiar!
as you noticed already, with this kind of oil filter, loosen it up first, to the point where you could take it out, but don't take it out yet, then lift the car up, drain the oil, and then replace the filter.
also, as someone who hasn't driven a C5 or C6 ever, what you are saying at 30:20 about the lag seems fairly normal to me, maybe make someone else who has more experience in c6's do a test drive in it. Sadly a lot of more modern cars with Electronic throttles and autoamtic transmissions do this kind of shit, worst offender i had for that was a new vw arteon, 240hp 2.0L, you had to put your foot down at the start of a roundabut if you wanted to accelerate when you left the roundabout, my Mothers 2015 Laguna is also quite bad, takes like half a second when you put your foot to the floor until it starts to actually move.
try All Citroen Spares in Merton SW19 2RL, he tests/presurises spheres & will also have spheres for your C6. his place is an aladins cave for anything Citroen sort
I like the air line blowing into the sump. Messy but loads more oil came out. My local garage likes to use an oil flush before dropping the oil. I'm never sure it's necessary. Would welcome thoughts on it...
I don't like flushes really as there's the chance they'll block something up with some dislodged sludge. Regular changes using slightly cheaper oil are better, for my money.
Can't do enough vids on the C6 Rich, it's ace! I have no idea if my spheres have ever been replaced on the XM, let alone after 40/50k. Should probably look to changing them out ASAP. Anywhere you'd recommend picking new spheres up from?
Very late reply as i'm clicking through videos slowly in my list, but if you haven't already ordered any then AEP in Glasgow, i've had plenty from there no issues
I've heard this of the C2/C3 specs, but C1 I'm pretty sure is quite different. I've also read that you shouldn't substitute C3 for C2...who knows?! I'll just stick with the book I think!
Is there a discernable difference in the suspension in sport mode? Assuming the c6 has sport mode? The firmness regulator slide valve can get sticky, and, weirdly, corrode.. Although at that age the spheres are unlikely to be anywhere near perfect. If you've initialised the box and it's not improved the easiest way to see what's going on is get some live data from it, that'll confirm that valve block or something more sinister. As for hanging on to second, they do, bear in mind that on the v6's the autobox is on the edge of its design limits and the engine ecu limits torque output on request to avoid excess strain on the box.
There's a noticeable difference, yeah. Sport mode definitely takes some float out. Spheres are bound to have lost a bit, and apparently even 3-4bar can make a big difference. How would I get live data, then? Do I need to come see you?!
A couple of bar is noticeable, I did the spheres on my mk1 c5, they were 2 to 2.5 bar down. The difference was incredible. Current c5 needs doing too. Switching your lexia to English would help! Parameter measurements is in there somewhere, forget where in diagbox, but it's there, then you can see in real time exactly what the box is doing against a set of expected figures. That said, IF it was the clutches slipping previously rather than the lock up clutch (it's quite common for the lock up clutch to slip) then it's probably the beginning of the end.. But again, live data will confirm it. Worth dumping the fluid again and seeing what colour it is, and more importantly, how it smells..
first of all I love your video series. I learned a lot about the C6. And for your information I do drive one daily. About the suspension I had mine calibrated by Johan Oldenhage. He has a garage and does a lot of servicing on the C6. th-cam.com/video/bmmaZIq5tfc/w-d-xo.html This is a video about how the calibrating works. Unfortunately it is in Dutch. This is not a very expensive procedure, costs about the same as aligning a car. But the suspension improved a lot on my car. He also flushed the gearbox and to be honest, It did not improve that much. The car shifts fine. But if I stand still at a red light and push the gas throttle , it does not immediately accelerate. It tense to wait just a little bit. I asked the garage about this and they said it is not abnormal behavior. You could chip tune the car, but honestly, I don't bother. If I accelerate it goes real quick. Love this car and do not regret buying one.
CX content would leave me with a massive case of the gimmes. Series 1 CX 25 Injection Electronique Automatique in silver with black leather - B648 NGY I miss you :-(
@@UPnDOWN Weve a Merc CLS waggon...this plus a roof box is only "just" big enough....(dog plus baby) Only other car thats suitable is a subaru outback...but they only sell those with weed wacker engines here. Really liked the size of the ZM..but...
Changed all the Sphere and it was still floaty, the hydraulic pump went out, I got a new one and all was fine, I guess it is the pump not delivering enough pressure because a capacitor went weak!
@@UPnDOWN Just told you my experience, got a new pump and all the annoying floaty mc floatface was gone. By the way it is possible to refurbish the system, the motor is a Renault part and the capacitors are changeable but they do need a bit more work. I think that a lack of hydraulic pressure acts the way as if you have spheres with too much pressure and then the damping is softer.
Febi is normally good stuff. Mahle are good, as are Purflux. Trick is to find out who makes the genuine filters for your engine and use those, if you can find them. Eurorepar are good too.
I think it's hard to know which is best between Purflux, Mann, Hengst and Mahle. Since this is a French car channel, surely it has to be Purflux as those zig-zag pleats are just plain cool? 😉
You likely can't go wrong with oil filters from the main dealer, if they are still around. Might be a bit more expensive, but at least you don't need to worry about the quality or otherwise of an aftermarket brand. Sometimes oil can be cheaper from dealers than from other sources, so it's worth asking them for their current prices.
@@howarthcd There's no BMW or Mazda dealer near me (I've got a Mini R53 and NA MX5) so it's not worth the hassle driving 90 minutes to the nearest one for most things. Definitely not for an oil filter anyway. I do the oil and filter every 4-5k anyway so as long as the filter does a half decent job, it should be fine regardless.
As usual an excellent video, When you do these outdoor location I am drawn to the possibility that a train might appear above the arches in the back ground. Regarding rats get your neighbour to have a camera check out waste pipes, especially from the toilet waste, Quite often the ground will settle pulling the connection off thus with flushing the surrounding soil is washed away thus exposing the cavity allowing access to his/her unit. and eventually yours (I really hope not)
There's a CX Safari for sale at Chevronics I had a close look and noticed some rust developing in the usual places most notably below the window on the tailgate. Shame. However it's a nice gray and other wise in pretty good condition. Wonder what's it like underneath? Just the sort of car a citroen lover would buy and give a bit LTC
No, it was on high suspension. That bouncing was a combination of the tyres deforming and the ramp moving, as there is zero suspension travel at its highest position.
Is this the same engine used in the (older) Land Rover Discovery? The channel "Land Rover Time" did a video about the correct oil to use: th-cam.com/video/Q4NeJrbor4s/w-d-xo.html Turns out 30 might be a fudge for emissions or something. Their investigation came after rebuilding an engine with a snapped crank shaft. Cheers!
So If I were planning a bank job, perhaps a C6 with its sluggiish tranny should not be my first choice of getaway car even if it would do the job with style and comfort.
"Lasts for the life of -whatever-" is the biggest pile of bollocks car companies peddle. Like timing chains that last for the life of the engine... Well of course it lasts for the life of the engine, because when they fail, you need a new engine (or at least a rebuild).
Wish we had that brand in Canada, Europe is so lucky when it comes to variety of goods compared to NA. Here all we get is American crap or Japanese, Korean. Nothing interesting.
I would like to ask Citroen to clarify what they mean by the "Life of the vehicle", because the shitty advice they give certainly shows they only care about it until the car is in warranty. I mean Citroen says the gearbox is "sealed for life", no maintenance needed, or make engine oil change at 30.000 km... That´s horrible advice! Oh and now the coolant pipes are being discontinued. The last C6 was built in 2012, so that´s it, they don´t supply the damn hoses :( So if we consider all this, the "Life of the vehicle" in eyes of Citroen is no more than 10 years!
Exactly. Car manufacturers are after profit, not longevity. It's in their interests that their cars last long enough to market them as reliable and dependable, but not so long that people won't want to buy new ones. The C6 is now of the age where Citroen don't give two shits about it, yet the fans of the marque's greatest hits still do, and will likely continue to do so. The question is can they all be kept going as easily as the older stuff? It's comparible to the Vulcan being grounded while the Lancaster's still allowed to fly.
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It's a shame Citroën/Peugeot don't build cars any more, they say the new 408 is going to be the saloon reinvented, what the people want the manufacturers build I guess. Great video again, more BX content would be appreciated.
The 408 has actually been already unveiled and honestly to me it's just an uglier Citroen C5x, or it's basically just Renault Arkana from Peugeot.
In other words, nothing reinvented yet again.
Yeah, it's a shame. Mercedes and Hyundai have both realised ultra-aerodynamic electric sedans (or liftbacks) recently. I think the original DS reimagined as an ultra-aerodynamic electric car would be a wonderful thing (with hydractive suspension of course). It was never really known for the engines (AFAIK), so being electric would be perfect. As it is, the actual DS9 that exists is such a boring three-box saloon, what's the point of it?
208/308/408/508/C3/C5X/DS4/DS9
People love it because the car is a little rare, not just in the UK, but across the world. It seems super hyper cars are popular but so are rare cars possibly within reach of most normal humans. Also your theory about the gas and regulation does make sense. I doubt they would've built such a complex system to allow for loss of gas, as it could be wildly different from each sphere. It would only take a small change in PSI for the effects to be felt. As for oil, I've seen much worse. Great video, and your humour/sarcasm makes for good viewing.
Exactly. They couldn't plan for a gas loss as there are too many possible combinations.
I always learn when I watch your videos, Rich.
Great video. Love watching basic levels of maintenance being completed properly!
How to make an oil change take an hour!
My -04 had lost about 5bar per sphere in 16 years and 190000km s.
The C6 is supposed to be more sensitve on the spheres though, i'd change at least the rear ones. As they are prone to create bounciness
Great video, thanks for making. I think the main difference between C2 and C3 oil is that C2 provides better fuel economy but it’s film strength is not as strong. C3 provides better engine protection.
Thanks for the update on this really interesting vehicle. Fascinating stuff about the gas in the spheres too. Every day is a school day.
I'll do some hydropneumatic vids one day.
@@UPnDOWN Mega! This is a whole new world of stuff I didn't know about. Thanks.
@@UPnDOWN That would be GREAT !
A general rule of thumb I use when changing paper element oil filters is that if the filter housing points upwards, as it does in your C6, then it's very likely that it'll dribble oil into the sump as you undo it. With that design I always change the filter before I drain the oil.
The procedure I do is undo the filter housing a few turns which lets it drain, then drain the oil. By the time the oil has drained the filter will have drained as well which lets you take it out without spilling oil everywhere.
So will I from now on!
I've had a couple of cars with the SC-80 gearbox fitted, it's well documented that the gear box doesn't like heat or water for that matter lol. I fitted an external transmission cooler to my Vectra and it's been absolutely fine, theses boxes like to be kept cool and the type of cooler that is part of the main coolant radiator just isn't up to the job, plus they rot out and kill the gearbox.
I learn so much from these video, never seen the air line trick.
On one of my favourite techical channels (AutoStrong-M) they dissected a 2.7 HDI and talked at lenght about the oil for the engine. To keep it short, they attribute the major crankshaft issues this engine is infamous for to wrong oil being used. Specifically, the oil should be B3 or C3, 5W40 or even 10W40! Jaguar and Land Rover recommend 5W30 B5 oil, which destroys the crankshaft.
Interesting.
I was in an auto parts store getting oil for my car and the salesperson told me that the new Alfa Romeo engines were made to such close tolerances that it is supercritical to give it the correct oil or suffer the consequences. Oils ain't oils goes the saying.
Helped my brother service his 12yr old Focus with the Ford/Peugeot/Citreon 1.6 diesel engine. I too was surprised at the recessed sump plug and thought there must be 1/2 gallon left that can't drain out.
Took the sump off my wife's 206 1.6 HDi. Is about 300-400ml from memory (did measure it at the time) I modified the sump to push the plug down - from an "inny" to an "outy" to borrow belly button terminology as hated the thought of that last sludgy bit remaining at every change.
I think - and is only a guess - that it's recessed so that if the sump is grounded out there's less chance of the plug being ripped out which of course would turn a bad day into a terrible one rather quickly!
Just back from working at the Kent county show with my guide dog on the guide dog stand and what a great video to enjoy … loving the C6 series.
I think this car is popular because it's exotic and exciting but still attainable. SM is more of both but really is unobtanium at this point for most people. Wonder how a peugeot 607 video series would compare to this. Not expecting you to make one though.
My SM was relatively affordable, in fairness. Granted, it doesn't work, but these are but mere details...
@@UPnDOWN Your SM:s are not for the faint hearted (Even as Sm:s go). Great stuff and sources of content all the same.
Красавчик, кроме тебя не кто не знает этого, спасибо огромное за то что ты думаешь, скорее всего я сам к тебе приеду)
So you know, there is a quite popular YT channel that is called POA which main journalist is a BIG fan of a C6, he made many episodes about it last years. This is how ive found you...So maybe you got some of his audience ? Well, thank you for your videos anyway, all good !!!
Hanging on to second before stopping is normal on the TC-80 gearbox, but it should change to first if it's bogging down
Correct, but I think this isn't changing down when it bogs as early as it should do.
I never owned a car with the grey spheres (Can't afford to get myself into a C6 and I don't care about C5s that much), but I thought one of the main differences between the green and grey spheres is that the grey ones are "sealed for life", meaning they don't have the hole in the top like the green spheres, which is also why the grey ones don't have the little nub on the top.
So from my understanding they are not refillable like the green ones used to be. They meant to last longer, but unfortunately once they need servicing, the only option is to have them replaced.
Or I could be totally wrong, I'm no mechanic. But I figured it'd be worth mentioning in case it is true so that you don't waste your time taking them all off just to find out they're not serviceable afterwards.
Cheers. I know people who've had it done on a C6, though it may involve drilling the sphere - not totally sure.
I think the sticky out bit (which was handy to yank the old filter out with) has an O-ring. I think also said O-ring plugs a hole - hence, as the filter is withdrawn, the hole is uncovered and all oil in the filter housing is allowed to drain through the newly uncovered hole down into the sump.
Or to put it another way, yes I think the book would have told you: loosen oil filter housing ahead of loosening sump plug. More specifically think it is loosen (but don't remove) the filter housing is draining all the time it takes you to get car raised and oil plug out. Then lower car, remove now completely empty housing and new filter as penultimate job (ahead of important splosh oil around the full perimeter of the filler cap position despite best efforts not to spill the stuff!)
Matt
All makes sense.
I finished an oil change on my Smart Roadster just 10 minutes before I watched this - my Smart oil filter is tiny - about the size of the filter in a handheld vacuum cleaner. The Smart can be a pain with some things, but the oil change was a pleasure!
Yeah, I used to sell those filters. They were like a shot glass!
That's appropriate, given a Smart engine is about as powerful as the motor in a handheld vaccum cleaner...
@@andreasu.3546 😂😂😂
A labour of love, but well worth it. It looks great 😃
Morning Richard ,a quick tip when changing the filter next time clean the housing out and fit the filter element to the base using the locating lug apply some clean oil to the top of the filter and then screw the housing gently home ,not wishing to seem like I'm teaching you to such eggs ,but I find that gentle air line pressure feed into the block via the dipstick tube works very well and is a great deal less messy ,cheers Coggins.
I did clean the housing out quite thoroughly, to be fair (I just didn't show it) but I didn't even think about fitting the filter in that order. Only ever really do canister ones normally.
Great vid as always, I have a few tips that might help you get a smooth ride out of your C6. My info is based on a C5 X7 (Fixed dampers) 18inch rims and on comfort mode.
Be precise with tire pressure and always fill to the cars specs and factor in expansion when hot. 1-2 psi over makes a big difference.
Definitely bleed out any air in the suspension system via front and back bleed nipples. I found air in the system makes the ride harder.
You are right about the ride being disappointing after you reset to factory height. My 2009 C5 X7 wasn't right after setting back to factory height and it must be caused by pressure loss.
I spent many hours driving and fine tuning the height manually to compensate for the slight pressure loss.
I found the first 1klm from startup to be a little rough. After 1klm the car raises to its desired "middle" height setting on a normal road surface. This height is where you want the maximum comfort and do not overshoot as 3-5mm is a night and day difference. To high = dash and interior rattling and poor isolation from small road imperfections but good on big bumps at high speed. To low = falling into medium size potholes, bottoming out on big ones and residual bounce afterwards but great over small imperfections and interior stops rattling.
I started off high and very slowly dropped it down tiny increments until I found the sweet spot at the cars "middle" ride height setting. This takes days over a variety of different road conditions but well worth it.
My C5 now floats along and steps up to the higher ride height only when the road has big waves and not single wheel potholes unless huge.
Hope that helps :)
I found woth my C5 that what brand of tyres used made a massive impact on ride- I fitted Michelin and car was transformed like night and day- yes they are more expensive but for ride comfort, road noise reduction and grip money well spent. I dont think the spheres will be a problem- mine were on their way out when I sold the car and were the next repair item- the ride became firmer not softer or wallowy so the theory in this video is wrong in my experience.
@@michaeldavis7199 Yes the Michelins are the only way to go. I think the best way is to test all 7 spheres for pressure loss refill or replace and manually fine tune the ride height for the cars middle height level. In my experience the height setting it's very very touchy especially running low profile tires.
@@imac3355 Well in my case I bought goodyear tyres (I had bridgestones before that) and that made a huge difference for me. The old ones were runflat so that means firmer sidewall so no RF tyres for comfort. I think it also has to do with rubber compound, the softer the rubber the more comfortable ride it is.
@@tomaskusnir2374 The tire type and compound make a big difference especially for lower profiles. I only use Michelins and inflate to 34psi all round cold. Once hot the pressure is around 35psi which is what the C5 requests.
Cheers. Interesting about the bleed nipples...hadn't thought of that.
Just a thought when changing the oil filter I always replace the filter onto the knob locating it in the filter housing first then just screw the cover on ,never tried it that way before
Hmmm, that's interesting. I hadn't thought of that, but it does make more sense.
Maybe it´s totally unrelated to your gearbox problem but...... I´ll tell the story anyway. We had a Peugeot 607 automatic as a company car. After repairs on the transmission (I think it was a ZF 4HP20) the car wouldn´t engage in 1st gear after coming to a stop. Letter it turned out to be that somebody who was working on the transmission with the transmission diagnostics left the W(inter) Mode enganged - and you couldn´t turn it on/off with the W/S switch. So......if you have the diagnostics (or know someone who has it) check it first.
Ahh, yeah I can imagine that. This isn't in winter mode, but it does have that. Limits the torque MASSIVELY on initial pull away.
I’ve just seen the C6 in the flesh (so to speak)! Very excited to see it pulling out of a T junction as I drove past and gave Rich a thumbs up. - poor Rich looked at me like I was a turnip speaking French. @UPnDOWN - that was me in the blue Lotus 11 replica. Just a big fan of your channel. :-)
Ahh, I see! I'm terrible with faces/names, but I remember cars. I quite often see customers round here but they sometimes change car I get really confused! Looked good though, I thought it was a Samio Spider when it was coming down the road.
@@UPnDOWN never been a customer but found your channel about a year ago with one of your Vecky vids (not sure how/why I found it, but glad I did). I’m only about a mile from your work and last night I was on a fish and chip run. :-) It’s a Westfield XI with a 1380cc A series engine - 110hp and 540kg. The abnormal bit is it’s not British Racing Green. Not quite C6 levels of refinement. Like you, I remember cars more than faces- although only unusual cars, not the modern grey boxes. My dad even used to remember the year of his wedding (1964) by saying it was B reg. I saw the C6 first then thought ‘this must be you’ and then recognised your face.
Great little tinkering Video Rich as always.
Re the dip stick
I have lost count of the number of cars that have "unreadable" dip sticks (at least by an idiot like me.
Why don't they make the bit that's between high and low level a bright neon colour?
It's bright enough on this one, it's just the oil doesn't actually stick to it when you draw it back out!
Rich
The best car is the Citroën CX and then the C6.
Thank you
Obrigado 🇵🇹
Says you...!
@@UPnDOWN I have a lot of kilometers in a Citroën SM but I will prefer the CX GTI.
If you came to Portugal I would like to invate you.
Thank 🇵🇹
I've leave in Oporto.
I have to say, about floating like a boat, it is something that disappears when you drive a bit faster and without respect to suspension. Then it uses it's mass. It is simpy calibrated in hardware to faster driving than a CX wich is great in corners, if you are not afraid of the body roll, for example. XM is to "confused" over bumps in corners because he did not have double wishbone in front, like CX and C6 have.
When you drive it like a boss, it is like a flying carpet. And really stable in corners.
Wouldn't fully agree there, to be honest. I thought the XM was the best-all round ride I've had in a Citroen. The CX was smooth and soft - wonderfully so, but the body-roll DOES become an issue if it reaches the bump stops!
As for the C6, I'm reserving my thoughts for the POV drive video :-)
Enjoying the updates. Same underdamped feeling in my C5 estate which has virtually the same suspension except for the variable damping system (AMVAR) that's on your C6. Good idea to test the spheres and I wonder if you can call Pleiades hydraulics as they are experts in Citroen hydraulics and possibly have developed a system for regassing grey saucer spheres with a fitted Tecnosir type valve.
I also bought all new struts from Poland, cost quite a bit to get to Australia however you might not need them unless leaking, losing pressure after sitting, or worn rubbers like in my C5.
I also have 5L of new LDS fluid. I think this might make the biggest difference to the damping because if the fluid has lost its viscosity then it would make sense for the fluid to flow through the damping valves with less restriction thus less damping.
Lucky you have the program to depressurise the system, I have to work out which valve to open to do that manually. You could replace the fluid when you have the spheres off and see if that makes a difference.
Also the AMVAR valves I read on the C6 forum can get sticky so I would be very interested if you got around to removing those and showing us how they work. You do look busy enough however!
I can't see me removing the AMVAR valves, but you never know! I'll document it if I do.
Lovin' the t shirt continuity again. Great attention to detail. Probably best we ain't got smellovision though!
Oh yes.
This 6 speed box is used in many psa products unless you come to a dead stop it never goes back into first gear. It's not a sporty gear box in any way it a leisurely turn of speed it does get caught when slowing and then flooring. It's not a fault
All makes sense, but I think this one is especially lazy.
Yet another entertaining and informative video from the top man but I must admit I'm glad I didn't buy one although I considered it in the past, far too complex but still a brilliant piece of engineering
Thanks, although I reckon there's a good chance you'd find most new cars today are as complex.
@@UPnDOWN I do agree with you my current car is a Skoda Superb which is a great car, but the modern technology is beyond my hammer and screwdriver skillset I do regret not buying a C6
Love that car
Saab 93 Dispsticks are just a flipping vague on the Petrol Turbo unit. With oil a lot of service centres now only suck the oil out which means a lot of the ',good chunky stuff' stays in the sump.' Speaking to my oil supplier a lot of this thin oil is to do with MPG rather than actually the engine be at its best on it. Manufacturers also pushed by the fleet market to extend intervals which won't benefit the private man for longevity if he sticks to them.
Good to see the C6 getting into shape.
If you had to pay labour, how much do you estimate the C6 would have cost you so far?
Probably twice as much! But that's not how it works in real life, right? I dunno, I thought that's happened on Wheeler Dealers anyway...
I had my zf flashed in a bmw to help drivability. It would pull away in 2nd gear. Not related to your Valve block concerns I know.
4:10 Speaking of bushes,I wish they made those purple poly bushes for the BX. Would change them in an instant.
Same. I'm in talks with someone at the moment.
Maybe putting an additive for the transmission in will help…. I know ZF recommend that you use the original transmission oil and just change the filter and if you can’t save the fluid they say put a additive in…. It could be the same for the Aisen unit….. I been in the trade 20 years give or take but it’s always helped with that kind of behaviour especially when the oil is warm and thin…..
The do not use a wrench instruction is for closing not opening. But actually I think it also says 25nm or something like that. It used to do on the peugeots. and yes you should open the oil filter before the sump plug. I dont remeber exactly how but the plunger in the oil filter housing is supposed to open and let the oil into the sump.
I can believe there are "Ford" badges over some of the parts even though this is a PSA unit. This year, owing to needs must, chose to service my 7 year old Mk3.5 Focus with the 1.5 TDCi unit in it myself (with assistance from a mate who is a vehicle technician, was Citroen now VW). This, I'm led to believe, was a Ford in-house "start-again" affair that replaced the PSA 1.6 "HDi" unit fitted to earlier Focus'. However it was noted that fuel, oil and air filters were all (it seems) carried over from the 1.6 HDi and have PSA logos stamped all over them as well as the Sump/Sump plug designs looking awfully familiar!
This is pretty much a Ford engine, though. They're built in Dagenham.
Brave man.
Another good video 🚗🚙🚘👍👍👍👍👍👍👍
Thanks 👍
as you noticed already, with this kind of oil filter, loosen it up first, to the point where you could take it out, but don't take it out yet, then lift the car up, drain the oil, and then replace the filter.
also, as someone who hasn't driven a C5 or C6 ever, what you are saying at 30:20 about the lag seems fairly normal to me, maybe make someone else who has more experience in c6's do a test drive in it. Sadly a lot of more modern cars with Electronic throttles and autoamtic transmissions do this kind of shit, worst offender i had for that was a new vw arteon, 240hp 2.0L, you had to put your foot down at the start of a roundabut if you wanted to accelerate when you left the roundabout, my Mothers 2015 Laguna is also quite bad, takes like half a second when you put your foot to the floor until it starts to actually move.
Looking forward to seeing a POV video in this car 👍
Coming soon!
try All Citroen Spares in Merton SW19 2RL, he tests/presurises spheres & will also have spheres for your C6. his place is an aladins cave for anything Citroen sort
Thanks for the heads-up, Bob!
I like the air line blowing into the sump. Messy but loads more oil came out.
My local garage likes to use an oil flush before dropping the oil. I'm never sure it's necessary. Would welcome thoughts on it...
I don't like flushes really as there's the chance they'll block something up with some dislodged sludge. Regular changes using slightly cheaper oil are better, for my money.
Funny to hear that Cambridgeshire is too far, I have driven 10 hrs to pickup a load to take the load 2 ½ days back to Canada.
It's not *too* far, but it's a fair old trek in the UK when the roads are as bad as they are here.
After all that they scare the hell out of me more than ever.......... yet I want one more than ever. That's not normal 🤔
Ahhh, they're fine!
@@UPnDOWN You do realise that everyone running a C6 will soon be paying you a visit. Your going to turn up one morning to find a queue of them 😉
Can't do enough vids on the C6 Rich, it's ace!
I have no idea if my spheres have ever been replaced on the XM, let alone after 40/50k. Should probably look to changing them out ASAP. Anywhere you'd recommend picking new spheres up from?
Very late reply as i'm clicking through videos slowly in my list, but if you haven't already ordered any then AEP in Glasgow, i've had plenty from there no issues
As far as I know, the C3 spec includes the C2 spec so you can use C3 oil in a C2 / C1 requirement car.
I've heard this of the C2/C3 specs, but C1 I'm pretty sure is quite different. I've also read that you shouldn't substitute C3 for C2...who knows?! I'll just stick with the book I think!
Is there a discernable difference in the suspension in sport mode? Assuming the c6 has sport mode?
The firmness regulator slide valve can get sticky, and, weirdly, corrode..
Although at that age the spheres are unlikely to be anywhere near perfect.
If you've initialised the box and it's not improved the easiest way to see what's going on is get some live data from it, that'll confirm that valve block or something more sinister.
As for hanging on to second, they do, bear in mind that on the v6's the autobox is on the edge of its design limits and the engine ecu limits torque output on request to avoid excess strain on the box.
There's a noticeable difference, yeah. Sport mode definitely takes some float out. Spheres are bound to have lost a bit, and apparently even 3-4bar can make a big difference.
How would I get live data, then? Do I need to come see you?!
A couple of bar is noticeable, I did the spheres on my mk1 c5, they were 2 to 2.5 bar down. The difference was incredible.
Current c5 needs doing too.
Switching your lexia to English would help!
Parameter measurements is in there somewhere, forget where in diagbox, but it's there, then you can see in real time exactly what the box is doing against a set of expected figures.
That said, IF it was the clutches slipping previously rather than the lock up clutch (it's quite common for the lock up clutch to slip) then it's probably the beginning of the end.. But again, live data will confirm it.
Worth dumping the fluid again and seeing what colour it is, and more importantly, how it smells..
first of all I love your video series. I learned a lot about the C6. And for your information I do drive one daily.
About the suspension I had mine calibrated by Johan Oldenhage. He has a garage and does a lot of servicing on the C6.
th-cam.com/video/bmmaZIq5tfc/w-d-xo.html
This is a video about how the calibrating works. Unfortunately it is in Dutch. This is not a very expensive procedure, costs about the same as aligning a car.
But the suspension improved a lot on my car.
He also flushed the gearbox and to be honest, It did not improve that much.
The car shifts fine. But if I stand still at a red light and push the gas throttle , it does not immediately accelerate. It tense to wait just a little bit. I asked the garage about this and they said it is not abnormal behavior. You could chip tune the car, but honestly, I don't bother. If I accelerate it goes real quick.
Love this car and do not regret buying one.
CX content would leave me with a massive case of the gimmes. Series 1 CX 25 Injection Electronique Automatique in silver with black leather - B648 NGY I miss you :-(
You've seen the POV drive, I trust?
It's a real shame one cannot buy a nice comfy large Citroen estate.
Modern enough for family duties.
C5 is modern enough, to be fair. Xantia is in all ways too, except perhaps safety.
@@UPnDOWN Weve a Merc CLS waggon...this plus a roof box is only "just" big enough....(dog plus baby) Only other car thats suitable is a subaru outback...but they only sell those with weed wacker engines here.
Really liked the size of the ZM..but...
Change the end letters of your number plate around and you will have as OMG.Get Ian HUBNUT TO DO A ROAD ROAD TEST ON THE C6.
Funny you mention HubNut...
Changed all the Sphere and it was still floaty, the hydraulic pump went out, I got a new one and all was fine, I guess it is the pump not delivering enough pressure because a capacitor went weak!
I think it's all working as it's meant to, to be honest. Just might have the gas pressures slightly out.
@@UPnDOWN Just told you my experience, got a new pump and all the annoying floaty mc floatface was gone. By the way it is possible to refurbish the system, the motor is a Renault part and the capacitors are changeable but they do need a bit more work. I think that a lack of hydraulic pressure acts the way as if you have spheres with too much pressure and then the damping is softer.
Wasn't that engine jointly developed with/for Ford? Seem to remember Jaguar used it in the XJ and XF when they were under Ford ownership.........
It was. It's more Ford than PSA, to be fair.
Ez valami elmeháborodott?
Should have twigged who borrowed the C6 after all your are the Aus Ford expert.
Did you use the TVR exhaust from Vecky on Betty??
All will be revealed later today!
What's the best brand of oil filter? Want to know for my own cars. I usually get Febi or Mann ones, figured they were the best ones.
Febi is normally good stuff. Mahle are good, as are Purflux. Trick is to find out who makes the genuine filters for your engine and use those, if you can find them. Eurorepar are good too.
I think it's hard to know which is best between Purflux, Mann, Hengst and Mahle. Since this is a French car channel, surely it has to be Purflux as those zig-zag pleats are just plain cool? 😉
You likely can't go wrong with oil filters from the main dealer, if they are still around. Might be a bit more expensive, but at least you don't need to worry about the quality or otherwise of an aftermarket brand.
Sometimes oil can be cheaper from dealers than from other sources, so it's worth asking them for their current prices.
@@howarthcd There's no BMW or Mazda dealer near me (I've got a Mini R53 and NA MX5) so it's not worth the hassle driving 90 minutes to the nearest one for most things. Definitely not for an oil filter anyway.
I do the oil and filter every 4-5k anyway so as long as the filter does a half decent job, it should be fine regardless.
Saying about the gearbox…… I’m assuming it has kick down…… does that need adjusting??🤷🏻♂️
It's all electronically controlled; there's no kickdown cable.
What railway viaduct is that in the background in the first part of the video? It looks like a disused / abandoned line....
Its an old fort.
@@jameswallace7709 Those are the battlements and Rich is standing on the parade ground.
If it was a disused railway I'd be way more excited by it!
Does the g/box have a pressure regulating solenoid? If so could cause issues you mention. Like a dpo in a 406 pug
I *think* it does. Will check.
As usual an excellent video, When you do these outdoor location I am drawn to the possibility that a train might appear above the arches in the back ground. Regarding rats get your neighbour to have a camera check out waste pipes, especially from the toilet waste, Quite often the ground will settle pulling the connection off thus with flushing the surrounding soil is washed away thus exposing the cavity allowing access to his/her unit. and eventually yours (I really hope not)
You're never more than 6 metres away from a rat, wherever you are...that's what they say, I think?
There's a CX Safari for sale at Chevronics I had a close look and noticed some rust developing in the usual places most notably below the window on the tailgate. Shame. However it's a nice gray and other wise in pretty good condition. Wonder what's it like underneath? Just the sort of car a citroen lover would buy and give a bit LTC
Just like the C6 now having had no awareness of it previously. It's a quirky Citroën, that's what attracts views ...
Really enjoy your videos. Get a patreon account and let us know.
Very merdy (?) oil. I'm looking forward to a driving vid, that'll be good.
Coming soon!
Is it just me or did the bouncing when the car stopped at 11:33 seem excessive? Could that be symptomatic of the pitching problem you're experiencing?
No, it was on high suspension. That bouncing was a combination of the tyres deforming and the ramp moving, as there is zero suspension travel at its highest position.
The very definition of a work in progress- you must be consuming a diet of many many brave pills Richard
Ha! It's not that bad, really.
Are you based in a fort in Hampshire?
An ex-Fort, yes.
Lovely car for money
Is this the same engine used in the (older) Land Rover Discovery?
The channel "Land Rover Time" did a video about the correct oil to use:
th-cam.com/video/Q4NeJrbor4s/w-d-xo.html
Turns out 30 might be a fudge for emissions or something. Their investigation came after rebuilding an engine with a snapped crank shaft.
Cheers!
It's the 2.7 TDV6 in the Disco. Thanks for the heads up, will check it out.
@@UPnDOWN hope it helps a bit!
I assume you mean Plaides 😮
I assume you mean Pleiades 😉
esta es la mejor ropa que tienespara salir en un video ?
¿Crees que debo usar ropa bonita para trabajar en un auto sucio?
No its not the Total long life. You have to buy Total INEO ecs.
As I said though, it's temporary. It's coming out again in about 500 miles.
So If I were planning a bank job, perhaps a C6 with its sluggiish tranny should not be my first choice of getaway car even if it would do the job with style and comfort.
You'd definitely get arrested, though you'd look suave doing it.
"Lasts for the life of -whatever-" is the biggest pile of bollocks car companies peddle. Like timing chains that last for the life of the engine... Well of course it lasts for the life of the engine, because when they fail, you need a new engine (or at least a rebuild).
Tru dat
Wish we had that brand in Canada, Europe is so lucky when it comes to variety of goods compared to NA. Here all we get is American crap or Japanese, Korean. Nothing interesting.
Citroens are over there, you just have to look. Granted, nothing as recent as a C6. Could you not import?
Mahle oil filter…….
Correct.
I would like to ask Citroen to clarify what they mean by the "Life of the vehicle", because the shitty advice they give certainly shows they only care about it until the car is in warranty. I mean Citroen says the gearbox is "sealed for life", no maintenance needed, or make engine oil change at 30.000 km... That´s horrible advice! Oh and now the coolant pipes are being discontinued. The last C6 was built in 2012, so that´s it, they don´t supply the damn hoses :( So if we consider all this, the "Life of the vehicle" in eyes of Citroen is no more than 10 years!
Exactly. Car manufacturers are after profit, not longevity. It's in their interests that their cars last long enough to market them as reliable and dependable, but not so long that people won't want to buy new ones. The C6 is now of the age where Citroen don't give two shits about it, yet the fans of the marque's greatest hits still do, and will likely continue to do so. The question is can they all be kept going as easily as the older stuff? It's comparible to the Vulcan being grounded while the Lancaster's still allowed to fly.
the British do not own the car industry anymore. Everything is owned by foreign companies,
Pretty much, yeah.
I was hoping the oil filter would be a purflux one! 🫢
If it was visible from the outside, it probably would have been (despite there being no real benefit!)
@@UPnDOWN other than they look cool with the chevron paper pattern!