Bart, I totally appreciate your guest … but his knowledge goes back to 1980. He needs to look at the great American drum companies in the 1970s! There were so many power tom sizes found in the Ludwig and Slingerland 1970s catalog. The 15” tom goes back to the Ludwig Octaplus in the early 1970s! 18x20” floor tom is found in the Slingerland and Ludwig catalog in the mid 1970s. The term powertoms … probably came from a Japanese drum company, but remember Pearl, Yamaha and Tama were copying USA drum companies! Slingerland had single headed toms were availed in power sizes like 10x6, 10x8, 10x10, 14x14 in 1976 catalog! Nigel Olsen asked for deep tom kit from Slingerland in the late 70s with possibly longer depths then 10” - see Elton John Central Park concert! All this to say he is totally correct about the hey day of power toms, but drummers like Nigel Olsen snd Simon Phillips were using “power toms” before the phase was coined! by the way, Ron Tutt played that 11” power tom on the Tama kit in the 1980s! One more thing, Ludwig had power tom kits in the 1980 catalog published in 1978 … I checked my old catalog!
Bart, you know I'm a HUGE fan of your show, and I enjoyed this episode on my flight home from London and didn't want to be the one to say it, but I agree with Earl. Kyle didn't dig deep enough and go back far enough. With all due respect to Pearl and all the Japanese companies, they weren't innovating in the 1970s - they were simply copying the American companies and eventually did it better, but not in the 1970s. I'm certain the term "Power Toms" began with Ludwig. As Earl pointed out, Nigel Olsson was using Slingerland power toms with Elton John in the early 1970s, and Roger Taylor was using Ludwig power toms in the mid 1970s. The Gretsch Monster Kit from the early 1970s (no doubt conceived to compete with the Ludwig Octaplus) incorporated 10x14 and 12x15 toms. Gretsch also made their Broadkaster kit available with 9x13 and 10x14 toms in the early 1970s. Rogers and Camco also offered kits with larger mounted toms (9x13 and 10x14) as options in 70s. The Japanese companies certainly innovated with hardware designs, but they were still following American drum trends into the early 1980s. When I worked at EU Wurlitzer in Boston in the late 70s to mid 80s, the great Ken Hoshino, President of Tama Drums and an old friend, visited in 1980 and asked my opinion on power toms because he knew we were selling a lot of Ludwig power tom sets. Tama hadn't yet introduced them. I later learned he visited several other large dealers and got the same response. They of course did introduce power sizes and were very successful, largely due to the trend and their growing artist roster at that time. By my recollection Yamaha was the last Japanese company to offer power toms in the US market and it was with their Recording Custom drums in 1982. Gretsch was also around that time. Pearl was probably early 1980s (maybe '81 or '82), but Ludwig was first. Keep up the excellent work my friend! 👍
@@livefrommydrumroom Thank you for the great comment and information John. I always love hearing your real deal first hand experiences. Thanks for helping to flesh out the episode even more. Looking forward to talking soon
Why cite 14x10 and 15x12? They are just the next progression in normal tom sizes. Tama has a philosophy of one inch shorter length than drum diameter that confirms an intention to reliably avail a power or deep tom selection, which was satisfying to see at 14x13 and 15x14. Whereas Pearl were two inches shorter or like Yamaha contradingly, a 10x10! Oddly I own Tama 8x9 and 8x8 Superstars and 10x9 and 10x10 Rockstars they sound and look great and far more classy that a Pearl 8x6.5 with a double ended snare lug in its middle. Lol. Pity Sonor Signature and Pearl Custom Z square sizes being great statement in catalogue appearance but awkward in use, looks and transit these days.
I too, recommend checking out Eric Carr's playing with KISS. The sound he has on the 1982 album Creatures of the Night is amazing. Especially on the tunes I Love it Loud and War Machine. RIP Eric Carr! You are still remembered!
Nicely done. I really enjoyed this podcast. Big toms don't get enough love! My kit runs 10x10, 12x11, 13x12, 14x13, 16x16 and 18x16. Nothing beats the sound of big toms
You were talking about large sets on smaller stages. Back in the 80's I had a 30 piece set up playing small clubs in Memphis. Some places the guitar players, keyboard and singer would have to stand in front of the stage due to my drums taking up the whole stage. On the bright side, I'd be higher up and visible and not hidden behind the other band members.
Episode suggestion: get Tommy Aldridge and maybe a tech or two and go through his kit evolution. His white kit with Ozzy sounded great and then he moved up in depth and back. His tuning is always perfectly balanced. Maybe an episode about what happens to old tour kits and where they are now from some of the greats.
Both great ideas. I had someone mention a connection to getting Tommy on the show a few years ago but it never panned out. I love the idea of what happens to old tour kits and where they are now from the greats.I added those to the list. thanks!
I believe Rogers was one of the first to do " power sizes " in 79 with the XP8 series which could be had in square sizes. As mentioned below Don Powell of Slade had a Ludwig kit by 1976 that was deep sizes which was custom made for him. Simon Phillips had Tama make him a Fibrestar kit one inch deeper then diameter in 1979, again custom made.
Good show! Kyle - fun fact... my first issue of MD was January, 1988. Like you, I didn't know the magazine existed until my aunt gave it to me for Christmas. Phil Gould was on the cover. He had a Tama Artstar kit in Pink. I thought it was the coolest thing, ever. Macho instrument, pink color - something really cool about it when I was a kid. In that article, he mentioned the 11inch Tom. I was new to drumsets (I'd played in concert / marching band at school) and didn't realize the significance of the 11inch Tom, but he pointed out how it was unusual, so that stuck with me. I didn't know until seeing your video today that heads are still made for 11" toms. He mentioned even in that article that finding heads could be tricky. Another fun fact: I didn't even realize it until a few years ago, but the shop where I got my first drumset in late 1988 was where the Wayne's World music store scenes were shot - Cassell's music in San Fernando, CA. My first set of drums were used Tama: Imperialstar bass drum and Swingstar Toms - light bluish-grey. I freaking loved those drums. The one thing that bothered me though, was they were shallow toms. When I finally got my first "adult" set of drums, I got them to order, etc. Yamaha Recording Customs. I like the depths: 10x9, 12x10, 14x12, then I later got a 16x16 Floor Tom. 22x16 bass drum. What I find interesting is how people who like shallower depth Toms *still* use deep floor toms. Like all the "I like the attack of the shallow drums" logic, etc., seems to be tossed out the window when it comes to floor toms. I always thought that was odd... Cool show, guys!!!
That 4th rack tom on Lars' white Artstar II kit is actually a bit bigger at 16 diameter x 14 depth (over a 24" bass drum!) it's an absolute unit of a tom. I own one of the 25 replicas Tama made back in '92 😁
Yes, those were cool! 🤩 Strange that they'd come with Pinstripes on _both_ sides, though! 🤔 They had one set up in a German store I went to in '84, on which Simon Phillips had recently done a drum clinic (Even the rod on the hi-hat was sawn off! 😄), and of course then 14-year-old me had to try it out - and it sounded absolutely terrible! 😆 But I probably just didn't hit it hard enough 😉 Probably also because I must've somehow sensed the staff's dislike, who later asked me to stop playing on a Tama Techstar kit, because they were getting sick of listening to the "doo doo doo" sounds all day 😆
I have an Artstar ES 8x8 in piano black in very good condition if you're interested. I was using it with my Artstar Custom until I finally found an 8x8 ASC to complete my 10pc kit.
I remember when power toms came out and being super into them. Ludwig had power toms possibly first. I remember Clive Burr having Ludwig power toms then by the Number of the Beast album came out he had switched to the brand new Tama Imperialstar Extras series. I believe Tama came out with superstar extras at the same time as the imperialstar extras. I had the Sonor drum catalog with the signature series with the square sizes. I would put my money on Ludwig coming out with the term power tom. I would say the Pearl Custom Z as the final chapter of power toms. Downsizing was blowing into the air at that time. I'm 54 now, I was totally in tune with what was going down at that time. People were starting to hate having to set up those huge toms comfortably at that time.
All great points. Ludwig was the earliest to use the name that I saw. They are such cool drum sets but definitely take some finesse to set up comfortably. Thanks for watching
My first power tom sighting was Don Powell of Slade playing a chrome Ludwig with a traditional depth bass drum. This was around 1975. Grohl's Nirvana kit was 15, 18, 24. A friend of mine hung his cymbals in the way you mentioned which I didn't really care for.
It's an interesting way to hang cymbals. I think it looks cooler than it is to practically play that way. Don Powell is coming up a lot in the comments - definitely someone we missed
I remember in 79 or so, we added a 12×14 slingerland snare drum tuned as a tom tom to our 4 Pc. Permeir kit in Jr. High. We were so impressed on how great that sounded as a tom tom. Very roundy sound.
One more very Important aspect of Drum Manufacturing was touched upon in this excellent interview, that was a discussion of the increasingly Heavier Drum Shell production that grew from the long-established 3-Ply Shell thickness to 6, 8, 10, and even 12-ply Drum shells. By the 1980s, the Ludwig Power Tom had become Standardized as a quite heavy 6-ply configuration. IMHO, this heavier Drum Shell greatly Reduced the Resonance of the Shell to such an extent that the Ludwig Power Tom Shell’s Tone Decayed Immediately. These Shells did Not therefore “Sing” to the extent of a properly tuned Drum in the Classic sizes of an 8” x 12” or 9” x 13”. In addition there were serious manufacturing problems with some of the Power Tom Drum Sizes.
Different companies (or possibly even different lines within the same company) don't necessarily use the same ply thickness though, so I don't know how much ply count actually influenced increasing shell thickness. For example, compare four different maple drums: Tama Starclassic is 6-ply with 5mm thick shells. Pearl Masters Maple Pure is also 5mm, but only 4-ply. Spaun Custom (maple) is 8-ply, 5.5mm. And Ayotte Custom is 6-ply, and I believe 4.5mm (not 100% sure about that one; also, Ray-era 10" and smaller toms were 5-ply, which would've made them 3.75mm). I suppose that, within Ludwig, more plies meant thicker shells, and other brands started making their drums thicker as a result. I do agree that there was an arms race toward thicker and deeper shells (Sonor, Pearl Custom Z, et al.), that finally ended when DW became popular in the 90s, and most brands followed suit and went back to thinner shells, and eventually shallower shells in the late 90s/early 2000s thanks to DW's FAST sizes (which also lengthened bass drums 2", which I dislike, but I digress).
Thanks Bart and Kyle for an Interesting history of " power toms ". Being "old school", I grew up with conventional toms before the morphing. Now a days I notice kits have longer depth bass drums and varying sized toms. It's all good. Working drummers prefer portability over design. With microphones it's a drummer's preference and always the music dictates the equipment.
Absolutely right. Portability is definitely important on the road, but having a monster kit at home is always nice :) Thank you for watching all the videos and always having a great comment my friend!
I play 6 ply Ludwig Power Toms on my Rick Allen of Def Leppard tribute COW drumset like seen on the early Def Leppard videos 1981 & 1983. Sizes are (Depth x Diam) (Pyromania setup) 11x12, 12x13, 16x16 &16x18 OR (High&Dry setup) 12x13, 13x14, 14x15, 15x16, 16x16 & 16x18. 18x20 was positioned behind him 😊
38:50 yes Niko is probably the ancient in terms of power toms. but we could also say Vinnie Paul. no matter what brand he was in, the drums remained the same. only the finish was changing. almost 40 years.
When I worked at a drum shop in the late 90's through 2007 I got used to Depth × Diameter. Somewhere in there Pearl started reversing the listing, and now it's a mess! I started playing when I was 9, April of 1986. In 1988 I got my first real set, a 3 pc Starlight. It had a 5×14 snare, 8×12 tom, and 14×20 bass drum. My following kits were Slingerlands. These kits had the traditional sizes 8×12, and 9×13. I never grew tall and the power toms were just too deep for me to position comfortably. When dw came out with the "F.A.S.T." sizes I was sure I wanted to go that route, but when I ordered myself some nice, new drums, I ended up with 7×10, and 8×12 rack toms for my kits and thank God I did! They're so comfortable and easy to set up. They also sound excellent. Regardless, I LOVE the topic. I was one of those kids drooling over the kits the hair metal and thrash metal guys had. I wanted a Tama Artstar so bad back then! Charlie Benante with his Tama drums and those late 80's line up of Paiste cymbals - 1000, 2000, 3000 series.. Such great memories, a lot of melancholic nostalgia there.
@@DrumHistoryPodcast - Thank you! I love the channel and all the great content. I really appreciate your efforts. If you ever get the chance, I'd love to hear an interview with Chris Brady of Aquarian give the low down on the history of the company.
Great topic thank you. With all due respect I have to disagree with the description of the characteristics. I think Kyle has it absolutely inverted. A shallower tom has GREATER sustain. There is less mass to move and the closer proximity of the heads creates more sustain. The deeper toms just give "more" sound - but not a longer note. It's a shorter note that has more power and volume but dies off more quickly. Think of the Steve Smith power ballad type big tom fills. An 10x10 is a loud smack - I’ve had 8x10s that go on and on lol. Also worth nothing the depth also has zero impact on the pitch. Diamater is what influences pitch.
Great video guys. I still use power toms (Yamaha Stage Custom) because I play rock, but I tune more like a jazz guy. They sound great. I dig a wide open Simon Phillips or Dave Weckl type drum sound. So it kind of balances out. I also still play them because I own them. Lol. Eric Carr was a huge early influence on my playing as well. RIP.
Still rocking power toms today, and I was born in the mid eighties. Have two Yamaha shell packs with power rack toms and one with power floor toms. I prefer them since not many people play them today. Trying to sound different.
Dale Crover of the Melvins Uses power sizes for his 5 piece Tama kits. Sounds Monsterous of course. Clean. I recommend anybody see his band LIVE. That's where they shine.
This was great, I've always loved power toms. I have a Ludwig Rocker II kit from the 80s with all the sizes, 6-16" and a Ludwig custom 4-pc kit with a huge 14x14 tom. Nice to see them mentioned, kind of an overlooked relics from the past these days, time for a comeback! Rock on.
Kyle mentioned the X-Tras. I owned a huge cherry wine kit for decades (purchased in '84), which I just sold off last year. They were beautiful drums with a sound somewhere between birch and maple (the shells were constructed with Japanese birch, which was harder/denser than its American equivalent). I have to say that I kinda miss that kit!
I always been a fan of power toms. I own a late 80s Tama Granstar w/ power toms. My biggest rack tom, 14×13", is bigger than my floor tom on my tama starclassic kit lol. Dave Grohl is the drummer that got me into big drums. He used a Tama artstar II series and later on during in utero era, rockstar pro, 4 piece power tom set with nirvana.. 24x16" bass drum 15x14" rack tom and 18x16" floor tom. Although everybody including Grohl has moved away from playing power toms, Mikkey Dee of motorhead is like the only drummer I can think of that I personally follow who still uses power toms and practically plays the same set up hes played since the 80s lol same with Dave Lombardo.
This was an amazing discussion that I'll doubtless be returning to repeatedly. A couple of notes months after the fact: Sonor actually launched their Signature series in '80, I believe. Steve Smith received his tornado red Signature kit (still my absolute favorite power tom setup ever), to be played on Journey's then-upcoming Escape tour, in '81. Secondly, Peter Criss and Nigel Olsson were two of the earliest rock guys using power toms. They were both using crazy custom sizes in the 70s, depths in some cases well exceeding diameters. So Pearl and Slingerland (along with Ludwig, who may have been the first), were deep-shell pioneers.
Thé original concert toms was ordered by Hal Blaine in mid 60s from Blamire drums where the size was 8x6, 8x8, 8x10, 8x12, 9x13, 10x14, 12x15. The set was called the monster kit. In late 60s he have the information to Ludwig who came up with octa plus with shallow sizes from the 6 inch to 10 inch but they added a 16 inch concert tom as well.
for double bass drum users, the ideal to have a good position for the hats, is to tuck the legs in and to use a bassdrum clamp that holds the stand in place right next to the bass pedal. pedals end up almost like twins.
First kit I ever had was an early 2000s Pearl Export. They had it in the store as an eight piece with cymbals. I've added to it over the years, but man, is it hard to get the toms in the right spot! If only they were an inch shorter. Oh, and I share Kyle's perspective about the 20 inch floor tom. But any body that has an 18 inch Export kick with the gold badge, I'll buy it from you!
As a fan of power Tom's ,during the mid 90 to the 2010 period in time the way drum companies went with regular and short stack Tom's on most of their different series was a bummer for me ,pearl vision and elx kits had the better tom depths ( especially in the more affordable mid end range of the market ) . The mapex stuff in the late 90s to early 2000s had nice depth on their Tom's but they migrated to short stack for most of their ranges of drums so I couldn't use those either . To this day I still use original made in England premier xpk and apk drums ,the quality and also the depth of the power Tom's made by premier in the 80s and 90s were unbeatable , the thing that let the complete kits was the hardware ,I used to buy pearl hardware as that was the best for the price . Now I use all the mapex armoury hardware , tama speed cobras (910) version and my kits are old premier ( I've had custom made sizes by peace drums and they were great ( square size Tom's ) I had a replica of Nicko mcbrains set ups. Now premier drums are coming back out I'm keeping my eye on them ( I hope gear 4 music look after the premier name ) the builders from premier mostly went to bdc , their drums are amazing but so expensive they are out of the range of most gigging drummers .
"If you have a bigger drum set, it means you're a better drummer." HA take it from me, in the world of music conservatoires, it tends to be the exact opposite these days. What with the whole "the smaller the kit, the more creativity the player has" argument that many jazz drummers love. I happen to think it's all BS - there are great drummers who play small kits, large kits and, yes, medium sized kits. It all depends on what you want to say on the drums as to what gear you need. As long as someone sounds good, I literally couldn't care less how big or small their kit is. Like you said, "it's all about the drummer." Great vid btw!!
I have a Blue Vistalite double headed power tom kit with a 24inch bass drum with 4 spurs.Seeing the 1980 catalog you showed, the blue vistalite is only shown as a single headed tom.I have not seen any other vistalite power tom kits or any information on them.I bought them new in 1980 and they still sound amazing
I still prefer them, especially with the modern thin shells. Tuned with thinner double ply or thicker single ply heads, the sound will jump back up quickly to the drummer and the mic instead of losing all of the sound as it shoots out the bottom of the drum as it does with uber-thick shells. And yeah, the Ludwig Rocker/Rocker II "field goal" tom mount was good for 15 minutes of life before become completely useless forever.
Bart, you know I'm a HUGE fan of your show, and I enjoyed this episode on my flight home from London and didn't want to be the one to say it, but I agree with Earl Bennett. Kyle didn't dig deep enough and go back far enough. With all due respect to Pearl and all the Japanese companies, they weren't innovating in the 1970s - they were simply copying the American companies and eventually did it better, but not in the 1970s. I'm certain the term "Power Toms" began with Ludwig. As Earl pointed out, Nigel Olsson was using Slingerland power toms with Elton John in the early 1970s, and Roger Taylor was using Ludwig power toms in the mid 1970s. The Gretsch Monster Kit from the early 1970s (no doubt conceived to compete with the Ludwig Octaplus) incorporated 10x14 and 12x15 toms. Gretsch also made their Broadkaster kit available with 9x13 and 10x14 toms in the early 1970s. Rogers and Camco also offered kits with larger mounted toms (9x13 and 10x14) as options in 70s. The Japanese companies certainly innovated with hardware designs, but they were still following American drum trends into the early 1980s. When I worked at EU Wurlitzer in Boston in the late 70s to mid 80s, the great Ken Hoshino, President of Tama Drums and an old friend, visited in 1980s and asked my opinion on power toms because he knew we were selling a lot of Ludwig power tom sets. Tama hadn't yet introduced them. I later learned he visited several other large dealers and got the same response. They of course did introduce power sizes and were very successful, largely due to the trend and their growing artist roster at that time. By my recollection Yamaha was the last Japanese company to offer power toms in the US market and it was with their Recording Custom drums in 1982. Gretsch was also around that time. Pearl was probably early 1980s (maybe '81 or '82), but Ludwig was first. Keep up the excellent work my friend! 👍
I didn't hear any reference to Ian Paice and his use of huge drums that were unconventional at the time and custom made for him by Ludwig. 26" bass drum, with 16" cut down floor for rack 1 then 18" and 20" floors, and they actually sounded great. I use what I believe are classified as power toms on nearly all my kits in 8x8, 10x9, 12x10 or 13x11, 14x12 or 16x16. These sizes really work for me although a 12x10 on the bass drum is higher than what I prefer. Also I believe that Sonor when they produced the Signature series referred to the tom sizes as "Square" . When they later produced the Sig lite, Sonorlite, and Performer kits, they were what I believe to be "Power" sizes 10x9, 12x10, 13x11, etc. the square thick shells for me have heaps of body but no attack, the thin power sizes really have a defined attack and sound
Power toms came out of drum corps and was Ludwig's answer to North tenors - smaller diameter drum sizes, deeper shells and sound. A lot of corps used them, notably the Blue Devils in 1977.
The Power Tom King, Vinny Paul RIP. Big,Thunderous and Boomy! Eric Carr had a killer drum sound on Creatures of the Night (before it was remastered and gated). Huge sounding drums.
Actually...peter chris had some toms that were power tom sizes in the 70's...they were custom made by Pearl for him. Carmine had the huge drums first and hooked John up with Ludwig. I started at 5 years old with a Ludwig 4 piece blue sparkle kit. I got a new kit for my High school graduation and it was a Ludwig Octa Plus. I played for a living for over 40 years. And Ludwig had double bass kits in their 1966 catalog. By 68 most major makers had double bass kits. Louie Bellson was not the first drummer with double bass...he just made them famous. Tama was around in the 60's but were called Star Drums. Ludwig made 20" floor toms for their Vistalite kits. Hard to find but they are out there. Pearl made the tall boom stand that you could hang the cymbals. I used them with my 1986 Pearl World kit until I bought a Gibralter double tier rack and I hung all of my cymbals except the ride and china cymbals. And Pearl and DW will make any custom sets you want to custom order.
Rogers too! There are some photos but not really available in Australia, so I didn't see a catalogue with them but I do like all that catalogue with the blue XP8 kit on the front. That drummer, played with Kim Carnes in Betty Davis Eyes film clip! Not sure of his name sorry.
seems to me its just a looks thing. they liked to have diff sizes than what most had. leonard haze said thats y he had a 16x22 for his small venue kit bc everybody else had 14 deep.
I was born in the 50 s I've been playing since i was i've been playing double bass since i was 13 in the late 70sost drum company's offered many sizes including power toms . the power toms give you less sustain and mor e depth . and dont forget slingerland offered the single and double cut away in the 70s. Nigel Olsen Phill Collins . i love a fat drum sound so i still play poer toms and they are also call them concert toms .i play to this day tama rock stars with aquariun reflecter drum heads .they are so powerful and fat.i love the sound. Its9 piece and i use paistes. I wouldn't change a thing .
Coincidentally, I was watching the latest video on the Australian _The Drum Thing_ YT channel earlier today, which featured a horrible, made in China 'Jin Bao' kit, and it too included an 11" Power Tom! 😀 And the guy said he was having trouble finding an 11" head for it in his area! 😅 By the way, and if I remember correctly: Weren't Sonor the first to offer actual _square_ rack tom sizes?
Is the only way to purchase new power toms through custom orders with manufacturers? I don’t think I’ve seen a single shell pack offered in larger depths.
I just heard Kyle say about the 20" floor tom that you can get heads because of the 20"Bass drums,but I have one, and they don't take Bass heads because they don't have Hoops they have a standard sized rims which takes a quarter inch bead not a 1/2"or5/8" like a Bass Drum head. I had a Bonham set built by Ludwig with a 14,X 6.5"Super Sensitive Snare, 15X12" 18X20" 20X22"Toms and a 14.5X 26"Bass.Custom built left handed in 1976.
I had that Custom Z ad in my locker. I swore I'd buy one one day. It was the first thing I bought when I started making money. Found a 6 piece with snare for $1200 on ebay. $800/$400 shipping. I love it. Still makes me smile like a 14 year old when I look at it. "Like a kid having a Ferrari." Also, two years ago I bought that 1969 six piece virgin double bass Pearl 'Big Shot' Tiger's Eye finish set off craigslist in fantastic condition with original bags for $450, and he delivered it! Ive gotten some lucky deals for sure.
sonor founder hurst link saw the deads mickey hart who'd mounted a 14x14 on a tom holder, the year was 77 and the rest is history,.......verified in modern drummer.....and by sonor and by mickey hart
Actually Gretch & Ludwig offered five Drum set-up's (the Rock Kit's) in the 60's Bass ,Snare and three Toms where the two Rack Tom's were the same size.
There was no other drum company that was more aggressively pushing the Power Tom concept than Ludwig Drum Company for more than 25 years. So when Kyle stated that the Drum Companies still produce the Power Tom Sizes, he was only partly correct. When I inquired with my local Ludwig Drum Dealer regarding making a drum set with Power Toms, I was saddened and surprised to learn that the power Tom sizes of been completely discontinued by Ludwig and so and are Not available as a Stock or even a Custom order.
Why would some replies cite 14x10 and 15x12? They are just the next progression in normal tom sizes, never claimed to be 'power or deep' toms just by head diameter. Reliably, Tama Xtras had a philosophy of one inch shorter length than drum diameter, that confirms an intention to avail a noticibly deeper tom selection, which was satisfying to see at 14x13 and 15x14. Whereas Pearl inclined two inches shorter say 12x10 and just like Yamaha, contradingly, beside a square 10x10! Oddly I own Tama 8x9 and 8x8 Superstars and 10x9 and 10x10 Rockstars they sound and look great and far more classy than same era Pearl 8 or 10 with a double ended snare lug in their middle. Lol. Pity Sonor Signature and Pearl Custom Z square sizes now, being a great statement in catalogue appearance but awkward in use, looks and transit these days. I hear the difference in tom depth, especially noticable in recordings live or studio, to be doong, doong, in deep toms and thoog thoog in short.
Kyle Schneider's drum story and memories are straight out of my (hypothetical) autobiography. My story varies when I cheated on Pearl with Tama and lost my pants in a White (Lars Ulrich style) 9-Piece TAMA Granstar II - Lars endorsed his (Tama Artstar II 9 pieces LU Signature drum kit)
@@speeddevil8763 In a roundabout sort of way, as it was from listening to Louie Bellson that Ginger Baker got the inspiration to use double bass. Somewhere Nick Mason stated (in his autobiography?) that he started using double bass after seeing Baker use them. In many videos of the early days of Pink Floyd (mid-1960's) Mason is seen using a single bass. (Idk exactly when he started using double bass, probably sometime around or after Piper At The Gates of Dawn was recorded in 1967.) John Bonham used double bass for a while until Page and Plant made him switch to single bass as two bass drums took up too much room on the stage. As a result, he had to do on a single bass drum set-up licks many drummers would find hard to do on a single bass, and yes he too was inspired to use double bass by Ginger Baker. So yeah it was ginger Baker who started the whole double bass thing in rock music.
I've been trying to piece together a double bass power tom kit for years, similar to Tommy Lee's kits from 84-86, and they seem to be nearly impossible to find now. I can't stand little shallow toms. I hate the way they look.
love these double drum kits, for ir five, is not enough. i discovered, at 15 years of age. more the better, & like Neil Pearts or vanHalens drummers Kit. lol
Not to be pedantic, but it's SONOR (German name), not SONAR (a type of underwater detection device). Interesting discussion, but not quite fully researched.
At 21:40 Kyle noted the 11" tom-tom made by Tama. He thought it was a typo saying that he had never heard of an 11" tom-tom. Phil Gould, co-founder of Level 42, discusses his 11" tom and Tama drum kit in a 1988 Modern Drummer interview: www.moderndrummer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/md98cs.pdf
I have every Tama Rockstar DX size Tama offered, love power toms! Personally, I think Tama & Sonor did power toms the best, not really a Pearl fan. Tama reached the masses better, every 80s-90s metal bands used Tama. Metallica, Slayer, Nirvana, GNR, Aerosmith, Megadeth(i believe), Suicidal Tendencies, Anthrax , just to name a few.
@@csciabar Mounting them on a stand & not on the bass drum is the way to go. Agree that a traditional 5 pc config is pretty wonky. I have an '89 Ludwig that was the typical "metal" set up - double bass (24") with the racks on a stand and two floors.
Bart, I totally appreciate your guest … but his knowledge goes back to 1980. He needs to look at the great American drum companies in the 1970s! There were so many power tom sizes found in the Ludwig and Slingerland 1970s catalog. The 15” tom goes back to the Ludwig Octaplus in the early 1970s! 18x20” floor tom is found in the Slingerland and Ludwig catalog in the mid 1970s. The term powertoms … probably came from a Japanese drum company, but remember Pearl, Yamaha and Tama were copying USA drum companies! Slingerland had single headed toms were availed in power sizes like 10x6, 10x8, 10x10, 14x14 in 1976 catalog! Nigel Olsen asked for deep tom kit from Slingerland in the late 70s with possibly longer depths then 10” - see Elton John Central Park concert! All this to say he is totally correct about the hey day of power toms, but drummers like Nigel Olsen snd Simon Phillips were using “power toms” before the phase was coined! by the way, Ron Tutt played that 11” power tom on the Tama kit in the 1980s! One more thing, Ludwig had power tom kits in the 1980 catalog published in 1978 … I checked my old catalog!
All great points, thanks so much for the constructive comment and information. I pinned your comment so it can add more context to the episode.
@@DrumHistoryPodcast I really love your podcast and show! Thanks for receiving my feedback as intended as constructive. Great show!
Bart, you know I'm a HUGE fan of your show, and I enjoyed this episode on my flight home from London and didn't want to be the one to say it, but I agree with Earl. Kyle didn't dig deep enough and go back far enough. With all due respect to Pearl and all the Japanese companies, they weren't innovating in the 1970s - they were simply copying the American companies and eventually did it better, but not in the 1970s. I'm certain the term "Power Toms" began with Ludwig. As Earl pointed out, Nigel Olsson was using Slingerland power toms with Elton John in the early 1970s, and Roger Taylor was using Ludwig power toms in the mid 1970s. The Gretsch Monster Kit from the early 1970s (no doubt conceived to compete with the Ludwig Octaplus) incorporated 10x14 and 12x15 toms. Gretsch also made their Broadkaster kit available with 9x13 and 10x14 toms in the early 1970s. Rogers and Camco also offered kits with larger mounted toms (9x13 and 10x14) as options in 70s. The Japanese companies certainly innovated with hardware designs, but they were still following American drum trends into the early 1980s. When I worked at EU Wurlitzer in Boston in the late 70s to mid 80s, the great Ken Hoshino, President of Tama Drums and an old friend, visited in 1980 and asked my opinion on power toms because he knew we were selling a lot of Ludwig power tom sets. Tama hadn't yet introduced them. I later learned he visited several other large dealers and got the same response. They of course did introduce power sizes and were very successful, largely due to the trend and their growing artist roster at that time. By my recollection Yamaha was the last Japanese company to offer power toms in the US market and it was with their Recording Custom drums in 1982. Gretsch was also around that time. Pearl was probably early 1980s (maybe '81 or '82), but Ludwig was first. Keep up the excellent work my friend! 👍
@@livefrommydrumroom Thank you for the great comment and information John. I always love hearing your real deal first hand experiences. Thanks for helping to flesh out the episode even more. Looking forward to talking soon
Why cite 14x10 and 15x12? They are just the next progression in normal tom sizes. Tama has a philosophy of one inch shorter length than drum diameter that confirms an intention to reliably avail a power or deep tom selection, which was satisfying to see at 14x13 and 15x14.
Whereas Pearl were two inches shorter or like Yamaha contradingly, a 10x10!
Oddly I own Tama 8x9 and 8x8 Superstars and 10x9 and 10x10 Rockstars they sound and look great and far more classy that a Pearl 8x6.5 with a double ended snare lug in its middle. Lol.
Pity Sonor Signature and Pearl Custom Z square sizes being great statement in catalogue appearance but awkward in use, looks and transit these days.
Kyle I watch your videos. Great kit. I'm happy for you and that kit rocks. And your former military thanks for your service brother.
Happy drumming kyle.
When I hear power toms, my soul comes alive
I used to LOVE Steve Smith''s Big Red Sonor kit back in the day and loved how low he sat and played. Awesome Shite!!
Power toms sound awesome!
Agreed!
I too, recommend checking out Eric Carr's playing with KISS. The sound he has on the 1982 album Creatures of the Night is amazing. Especially on the tunes I Love it Loud and War Machine. RIP Eric Carr! You are still remembered!
Nicely done. I really enjoyed this podcast. Big toms don't get enough love! My kit runs 10x10, 12x11, 13x12, 14x13, 16x16 and 18x16. Nothing beats the sound of big toms
Thanks for watching!
Some of the kids that have come over to track have been scared by the sheer size of my Mapex Orions. But once they hear them…
You were talking about large sets on smaller stages. Back in the 80's I had a 30 piece set up playing small clubs in Memphis. Some places the guitar players, keyboard and singer would have to stand in front of the stage due to my drums taking up the whole stage. On the bright side, I'd be higher up and visible and not hidden behind the other band members.
Haha thats awesome. Im sure it was quite the sight to see!
making up for something as usual. drummers 😅
Awesome! lol.
Episode suggestion: get Tommy Aldridge and maybe a tech or two and go through his kit evolution. His white kit with Ozzy sounded great and then he moved up in depth and back. His tuning is always perfectly balanced.
Maybe an episode about what happens to old tour kits and where they are now from some of the greats.
Both great ideas. I had someone mention a connection to getting Tommy on the show a few years ago but it never panned out. I love the idea of what happens to old tour kits and where they are now from the greats.I added those to the list. thanks!
Love these ideas. Where is his white Sonor and the black Bark at the moon YRC? 😝
Here's a thought, just after the popularity of "power toms" subsided gong bass drums started to appear.
Very interesting. Coincidence? I think not!
Anyone ever make a gong drum from a deep bass drum, like a 22" X 20"? Power gong!
I believe Rogers was one of the first to do " power sizes " in 79 with the XP8 series which could be had in square sizes. As mentioned below Don Powell of Slade had a Ludwig kit by 1976 that was deep sizes which was custom made for him. Simon Phillips had Tama make him a Fibrestar kit one inch deeper then diameter in 1979, again custom made.
I think you're right - The XP8 completely slipped my mind. Also interesting about the custom orders
Yes!
@@DrumHistoryPodcast Yes big oversight
Yep, I think it was called XP8 "The Londoner"
Good show!
Kyle - fun fact... my first issue of MD was January, 1988. Like you, I didn't know the magazine existed until my aunt gave it to me for Christmas. Phil Gould was on the cover. He had a Tama Artstar kit in Pink. I thought it was the coolest thing, ever. Macho instrument, pink color - something really cool about it when I was a kid.
In that article, he mentioned the 11inch Tom. I was new to drumsets (I'd played in concert / marching band at school) and didn't realize the significance of the 11inch Tom, but he pointed out how it was unusual, so that stuck with me. I didn't know until seeing your video today that heads are still made for 11" toms. He mentioned even in that article that finding heads could be tricky.
Another fun fact: I didn't even realize it until a few years ago, but the shop where I got my first drumset in late 1988 was where the Wayne's World music store scenes were shot - Cassell's music in San Fernando, CA.
My first set of drums were used Tama: Imperialstar bass drum and Swingstar Toms - light bluish-grey. I freaking loved those drums. The one thing that bothered me though, was they were shallow toms.
When I finally got my first "adult" set of drums, I got them to order, etc. Yamaha Recording Customs. I like the depths: 10x9, 12x10, 14x12, then I later got a 16x16 Floor Tom. 22x16 bass drum.
What I find interesting is how people who like shallower depth Toms *still* use deep floor toms. Like all the "I like the attack of the shallow drums" logic, etc., seems to be tossed out the window when it comes to floor toms. I always thought that was odd...
Cool show, guys!!!
What a great episode! Makes me add one more tom to the cockpit. 🔥
That 4th rack tom on Lars' white Artstar II kit is actually a bit bigger at 16 diameter x 14 depth (over a 24" bass drum!) it's an absolute unit of a tom. I own one of the 25 replicas Tama made back in '92 😁
I mostly played Ludwig growing up and LOVED them. They always sounded good in the practice room and on stage!
I wish Tama would bring back the artstar series...I loved those drums! Love the hi tension lugs design!
Yes, those were cool! 🤩 Strange that they'd come with Pinstripes on _both_ sides, though! 🤔 They had one set up in a German store I went to in '84, on which Simon Phillips had recently done a drum clinic (Even the rod on the hi-hat was sawn off! 😄), and of course then 14-year-old me had to try it out - and it sounded absolutely terrible! 😆 But I probably just didn't hit it hard enough 😉 Probably also because I must've somehow sensed the staff's dislike, who later asked me to stop playing on a Tama Techstar kit, because they were getting sick of listening to the "doo doo doo" sounds all day 😆
I still have my Artstar ES, they are cheapest in the Artstar range but they are still power toms and still sound great!
I have an Artstar ES 8x8 in piano black in very good condition if you're interested. I was using it with my Artstar Custom until I finally found an 8x8 ASC to complete my 10pc kit.
Have an Artstar kit from 84 piano black with the cordira interior ply. I wish they would revisit this series as well. They sound and look great.
I believe Phil Gould from Level 42 used an 11" tom with his Granstar cherry rose finish set.
❤deeper toms👍🏻 Simon Philips comes to mind also🎉🥁🥁
I remember when power toms came out and being super into them. Ludwig had power toms possibly first. I remember Clive Burr having Ludwig power toms then by the Number of the Beast album came out he had switched to the brand new Tama Imperialstar Extras series. I believe Tama came out with superstar extras at the same time as the imperialstar extras.
I had the Sonor drum catalog with the signature series with the square sizes.
I would put my money on Ludwig coming out with the term power tom.
I would say the Pearl Custom Z as the final chapter of power toms. Downsizing was blowing into the air at that time. I'm 54 now, I was totally in tune with what was going down at that time. People were starting to hate having to set up those huge toms comfortably at that time.
All great points. Ludwig was the earliest to use the name that I saw. They are such cool drum sets but definitely take some finesse to set up comfortably. Thanks for watching
My first power tom sighting was Don Powell of Slade playing a chrome Ludwig with a traditional depth bass drum. This was around 1975.
Grohl's Nirvana kit was 15, 18, 24.
A friend of mine hung his cymbals in the way you mentioned which I didn't really care for.
It's an interesting way to hang cymbals. I think it looks cooler than it is to practically play that way. Don Powell is coming up a lot in the comments - definitely someone we missed
@@DrumHistoryPodcast you missed him because you're too young lol.
@@DDandrums Guilty as charged :)
Yes, in some photos it looks like Grohl's rack tom may as well be a floor tom! 😄
I remember in 79 or so, we added a 12×14 slingerland snare drum tuned as a tom tom to our 4 Pc. Permeir kit in Jr. High. We were so impressed on how great that sounded as a tom tom. Very roundy sound.
Hal blaine and Ludwig started the power tom thing around 1970. And Ludwig coined the phrase power tom.
Ludwig called _all_ their concert toms 'power toms', though. Or didn't they?!
Great video! I agree about changing ur setup occasionally to inspire yourself and have fun.
Absolutely - it keeps it fresh. Thanks for watching!
Look up the Slingerland Magnum series drum set. They had square sizes and they used to have a set at my local Kennelly Keys music store.
SONOR had square sizes as well.
One more very Important aspect of Drum Manufacturing was touched upon in this excellent interview, that was a discussion of the increasingly Heavier Drum Shell production that grew from the long-established 3-Ply Shell thickness to 6, 8, 10, and even 12-ply Drum shells. By the 1980s, the Ludwig Power Tom had become Standardized as a quite heavy 6-ply configuration. IMHO, this heavier Drum Shell greatly Reduced the Resonance of the Shell to such an extent that the Ludwig Power Tom Shell’s Tone Decayed Immediately. These Shells did Not therefore “Sing” to the extent of a properly tuned Drum in the Classic sizes of an 8” x 12” or 9” x 13”. In addition there were serious manufacturing problems with some of the Power Tom Drum Sizes.
Different companies (or possibly even different lines within the same company) don't necessarily use the same ply thickness though, so I don't know how much ply count actually influenced increasing shell thickness. For example, compare four different maple drums: Tama Starclassic is 6-ply with 5mm thick shells. Pearl Masters Maple Pure is also 5mm, but only 4-ply. Spaun Custom (maple) is 8-ply, 5.5mm. And Ayotte Custom is 6-ply, and I believe 4.5mm (not 100% sure about that one; also, Ray-era 10" and smaller toms were 5-ply, which would've made them 3.75mm). I suppose that, within Ludwig, more plies meant thicker shells, and other brands started making their drums thicker as a result.
I do agree that there was an arms race toward thicker and deeper shells (Sonor, Pearl Custom Z, et al.), that finally ended when DW became popular in the 90s, and most brands followed suit and went back to thinner shells, and eventually shallower shells in the late 90s/early 2000s thanks to DW's FAST sizes (which also lengthened bass drums 2", which I dislike, but I digress).
Thanks Bart and Kyle for an Interesting history of " power toms ". Being "old school", I grew up with conventional toms before the morphing.
Now a days I notice kits have longer depth bass drums and varying sized toms. It's all good. Working drummers prefer portability over design.
With microphones it's a drummer's preference and always the music dictates the equipment.
Absolutely right. Portability is definitely important on the road, but having a monster kit at home is always nice :) Thank you for watching all the videos and always having a great comment my friend!
Yep ,that ad for the Pearl custom z ,when l saw that l drooled .Square toms perfect.
I play 6 ply Ludwig Power Toms on my Rick Allen of Def Leppard tribute COW drumset like seen on the early Def Leppard videos 1981 & 1983. Sizes are (Depth x Diam) (Pyromania setup) 11x12, 12x13, 16x16 &16x18 OR (High&Dry setup)
12x13, 13x14, 14x15, 15x16, 16x16 & 16x18. 18x20 was positioned behind him
😊
38:50 yes Niko is probably the ancient in terms of power toms. but we could also say Vinnie Paul. no matter what brand he was in, the drums remained the same. only the finish was changing. almost 40 years.
When I worked at a drum shop in the late 90's through 2007 I got used to Depth × Diameter. Somewhere in there Pearl started reversing the listing, and now it's a mess!
I started playing when I was 9, April of 1986. In 1988 I got my first real set, a 3 pc Starlight. It had a 5×14 snare, 8×12 tom, and 14×20 bass drum.
My following kits were Slingerlands. These kits had the traditional sizes 8×12, and 9×13. I never grew tall and the power toms were just too deep for me to position comfortably.
When dw came out with the "F.A.S.T." sizes I was sure I wanted to go that route, but when I ordered myself some nice, new drums, I ended up with 7×10, and 8×12 rack toms for my kits and thank God I did! They're so comfortable and easy to set up. They also sound excellent.
Regardless, I LOVE the topic. I was one of those kids drooling over the kits the hair metal and thrash metal guys had. I wanted a Tama Artstar so bad back then! Charlie Benante with his Tama drums and those late 80's line up of Paiste cymbals - 1000, 2000, 3000 series.. Such great memories, a lot of melancholic nostalgia there.
Another great comment. thanks for sharing - you have a very good memory :)
@@DrumHistoryPodcast - Thank you!
I love the channel and all the great content. I really appreciate your efforts.
If you ever get the chance, I'd love to hear an interview with Chris Brady of Aquarian give the low down on the history of the company.
Great topic thank you. With all due respect I have to disagree with the description of the characteristics. I think Kyle has it absolutely inverted. A shallower tom has GREATER sustain. There is less mass to move and the closer proximity of the heads creates more sustain. The deeper toms just give "more" sound - but not a longer note. It's a shorter note that has more power and volume but dies off more quickly. Think of the Steve Smith power ballad type big tom fills. An 10x10 is a loud smack - I’ve had 8x10s that go on and on lol. Also worth nothing the depth also has zero impact on the pitch. Diamater is what influences pitch.
Great video guys. I still use power toms (Yamaha Stage Custom) because I play rock, but I tune more like a jazz guy. They sound great. I dig a wide open Simon Phillips or Dave Weckl type drum sound. So it kind of balances out. I also still play them because I own them. Lol. Eric Carr was a huge early influence on my playing as well. RIP.
Still rocking power toms today, and I was born in the mid eighties. Have two Yamaha shell packs with power rack toms and one with power floor toms. I prefer them since not many people play them today. Trying to sound different.
Dale Crover of the Melvins Uses power sizes for his 5 piece Tama kits. Sounds Monsterous of course. Clean. I recommend anybody see his band LIVE. That's where they shine.
The Melvins rock
Love the Melvins..Crover is a amazing drummer..Also love Jimmy Bower from Down..
Two words: Nigel Olsson, (Elton John). 1970's slingerland power toms.
Yep that is very true, Nigel had a great huge set up - we missed talking about him. Thank you for watching!
@@DrumHistoryPodcast I remembered, because in 1979, *I* bought some white Slingerland power toms...
I had a Yellow Yamaha Turbo Tour Custom kit which had square sized toms. 10x10, 12x12x 14x14, 16x16
So cool - very insightful everyone involved. Keep hitting them hard!
1989 Pearl Export as well 2 kicks, 4 racks, and 2 floors. Great kit!! Grandma got it for me! Haha
I bought a Yamaha Stage Custom with power toms in 1999. Still have it and love it.
This was great, I've always loved power toms. I have a Ludwig Rocker II kit from the 80s with all the sizes, 6-16" and a Ludwig custom 4-pc kit with a huge 14x14 tom. Nice to see them mentioned, kind of an overlooked relics from the past these days, time for a comeback! Rock on.
Anyways thanks for this video. It was very informative.
Kyle mentioned the X-Tras. I owned a huge cherry wine kit for decades (purchased in '84), which I just sold off last year. They were beautiful drums with a sound somewhere between birch and maple (the shells were constructed with Japanese birch, which was harder/denser than its American equivalent). I have to say that I kinda miss that kit!
Love Simon Phillips sound. Large drums, wide open and tuned to perfection. Ill never get rid of my large shell Tamas
I have a 70's Slingerland kit with a 15 mounted tom and a 20 inch floor tom so they were around in the 70's
I always been a fan of power toms. I own a late 80s Tama Granstar w/ power toms. My biggest rack tom, 14×13", is bigger than my floor tom on my tama starclassic kit lol. Dave Grohl is the drummer that got me into big drums. He used a Tama artstar II series and later on during in utero era, rockstar pro, 4 piece power tom set with nirvana.. 24x16" bass drum 15x14" rack tom and 18x16" floor tom. Although everybody including Grohl has moved away from playing power toms, Mikkey Dee of motorhead is like the only drummer I can think of that I personally follow who still uses power toms and practically plays the same set up hes played since the 80s lol same with Dave Lombardo.
This was an amazing discussion that I'll doubtless be returning to repeatedly. A couple of notes months after the fact: Sonor actually launched their Signature series in '80, I believe. Steve Smith received his tornado red Signature kit (still my absolute favorite power tom setup ever), to be played on Journey's then-upcoming Escape tour, in '81. Secondly, Peter Criss and Nigel Olsson were two of the earliest rock guys using power toms. They were both using crazy custom sizes in the 70s, depths in some cases well exceeding diameters. So Pearl and Slingerland (along with Ludwig, who may have been the first), were deep-shell pioneers.
Thé original concert toms was ordered by Hal Blaine in mid 60s from Blamire drums where the size was 8x6, 8x8, 8x10, 8x12, 9x13, 10x14, 12x15. The set was called the monster kit. In late 60s he have the information to Ludwig who came up with octa plus with shallow sizes from the 6 inch to 10 inch but they added a 16 inch concert tom as well.
AVH's LUDWIG bass drums.......Power Cannons!
Monsters!
for double bass drum users, the ideal to have a good position for the hats, is to tuck the legs in and to use a bassdrum clamp that holds the stand in place right next to the bass pedal. pedals end up almost like twins.
First kit I ever had was an early 2000s Pearl Export. They had it in the store as an eight piece with cymbals. I've added to it over the years, but man, is it hard to get the toms in the right spot! If only they were an inch shorter.
Oh, and I share Kyle's perspective about the 20 inch floor tom. But any body that has an 18 inch Export kick with the gold badge, I'll buy it from you!
As a fan of power Tom's ,during the mid 90 to the 2010 period in time the way drum companies went with regular and short stack Tom's on most of their different series was a bummer for me ,pearl vision and elx kits had the better tom depths ( especially in the more affordable mid end range of the market ) .
The mapex stuff in the late 90s to early 2000s had nice depth on their Tom's but they migrated to short stack for most of their ranges of drums so I couldn't use those either .
To this day I still use original made in England premier xpk and apk drums ,the quality and also the depth of the power Tom's made by premier in the 80s and 90s were unbeatable , the thing that let the complete kits was the hardware ,I used to buy pearl hardware as that was the best for the price .
Now I use all the mapex armoury hardware , tama speed cobras (910) version and my kits are old premier ( I've had custom made sizes by peace drums and they were great ( square size Tom's ) I had a replica of Nicko mcbrains set ups.
Now premier drums are coming back out I'm keeping my eye on them ( I hope gear 4 music look after the premier name ) the builders from premier mostly went to bdc , their drums are amazing but so expensive they are out of the range of most gigging drummers .
"If you have a bigger drum set, it means you're a better drummer." HA take it from me, in the world of music conservatoires, it tends to be the exact opposite these days. What with the whole "the smaller the kit, the more creativity the player has" argument that many jazz drummers love. I happen to think it's all BS - there are great drummers who play small kits, large kits and, yes, medium sized kits. It all depends on what you want to say on the drums as to what gear you need. As long as someone sounds good, I literally couldn't care less how big or small their kit is. Like you said, "it's all about the drummer." Great vid btw!!
I have a Blue Vistalite double headed power tom kit with a 24inch bass drum with 4 spurs.Seeing the 1980 catalog you showed, the blue vistalite is only shown as a single headed tom.I have not seen any other vistalite power tom kits or any information on them.I bought them new in 1980 and they still sound amazing
I still prefer them, especially with the modern thin shells. Tuned with thinner double ply or thicker single ply heads, the sound will jump back up quickly to the drummer and the mic instead of losing all of the sound as it shoots out the bottom of the drum as it does with uber-thick shells.
And yeah, the Ludwig Rocker/Rocker II "field goal" tom mount was good for 15 minutes of life before become completely useless forever.
Bart, you know I'm a HUGE fan of your show, and I enjoyed this episode on my flight home from London and didn't want to be the one to say it, but I agree with Earl Bennett. Kyle didn't dig deep enough and go back far enough. With all due respect to Pearl and all the Japanese companies, they weren't innovating in the 1970s - they were simply copying the American companies and eventually did it better, but not in the 1970s. I'm certain the term "Power Toms" began with Ludwig. As Earl pointed out, Nigel Olsson was using Slingerland power toms with Elton John in the early 1970s, and Roger Taylor was using Ludwig power toms in the mid 1970s. The Gretsch Monster Kit from the early 1970s (no doubt conceived to compete with the Ludwig Octaplus) incorporated 10x14 and 12x15 toms. Gretsch also made their Broadkaster kit available with 9x13 and 10x14 toms in the early 1970s. Rogers and Camco also offered kits with larger mounted toms (9x13 and 10x14) as options in 70s. The Japanese companies certainly innovated with hardware designs, but they were still following American drum trends into the early 1980s. When I worked at EU Wurlitzer in Boston in the late 70s to mid 80s, the great Ken Hoshino, President of Tama Drums and an old friend, visited in 1980s and asked my opinion on power toms because he knew we were selling a lot of Ludwig power tom sets. Tama hadn't yet introduced them. I later learned he visited several other large dealers and got the same response. They of course did introduce power sizes and were very successful, largely due to the trend and their growing artist roster at that time. By my recollection Yamaha was the last Japanese company to offer power toms in the US market and it was with their Recording Custom drums in 1982. Gretsch was also around that time. Pearl was probably early 1980s (maybe '81 or '82), but Ludwig was first. Keep up the excellent work my friend! 👍
Carter Beauford rocked the power toms!
I didn't hear any reference to Ian Paice and his use of huge drums that were unconventional at the time and custom made for him by Ludwig. 26" bass drum, with 16" cut down floor for rack 1 then 18" and 20" floors, and they actually sounded great. I use what I believe are classified as power toms on nearly all my kits in 8x8, 10x9, 12x10 or 13x11, 14x12 or 16x16. These sizes really work for me although a 12x10 on the bass drum is higher than what I prefer. Also I believe that Sonor when they produced the Signature series referred to the tom sizes as "Square" . When they later produced the Sig lite, Sonorlite, and Performer kits, they were what I believe to be "Power" sizes 10x9, 12x10, 13x11, etc. the square thick shells for me have heaps of body but no attack, the thin power sizes really have a defined attack and sound
Power toms came out of drum corps and was Ludwig's answer to North tenors - smaller diameter drum sizes, deeper shells and sound. A lot of corps used them, notably the Blue Devils in 1977.
The Power Tom King, Vinny Paul RIP. Big,Thunderous and Boomy!
Eric Carr had a killer drum sound on Creatures of the Night (before it was remastered and gated). Huge sounding drums.
Still playing my 24,16,13 with a added 14 inch
Actually...peter chris had some toms that were power tom sizes in the 70's...they were custom made by Pearl for him. Carmine had the huge drums first and hooked John up with Ludwig. I started at 5 years old with a Ludwig 4 piece blue sparkle kit. I got a new kit for my High school graduation and it was a Ludwig Octa Plus. I played for a living for over 40 years. And Ludwig had double bass kits in their 1966 catalog. By 68 most major makers had double bass kits. Louie Bellson was not the first drummer with double bass...he just made them famous. Tama was around in the 60's but were called Star Drums. Ludwig made 20" floor toms for their Vistalite kits. Hard to find but they are out there. Pearl made the tall boom stand that you could hang the cymbals. I used them with my 1986 Pearl World kit until I bought a Gibralter double tier rack and I hung all of my cymbals except the ride and china cymbals. And Pearl and DW will make any custom sets you want to custom order.
Rogers too! There are some photos but not really available in Australia, so I didn't see a catalogue with them but I do like all that catalogue with the blue XP8 kit on the front. That drummer, played with Kim Carnes in Betty Davis Eyes film clip! Not sure of his name sorry.
seems to me its just a looks thing. they liked to have diff sizes than what most had. leonard haze said thats y he had a 16x22 for his small venue kit bc everybody else had 14 deep.
I thought I was the only one who played their hihat with the heel and forefoot on the bass pedal! Wow...
awesome drum kits.
Power toms sound amazing
i setup 90 deg cymbals down when I was a kid and wing nuts back off and gravity takes over. Solid learning lesson🤘
I was born in the 50 s I've been playing since i was i've been playing double bass since i was 13 in the late 70sost drum company's offered many sizes including power toms . the power toms give you less sustain and mor e depth . and dont forget slingerland offered the single and double cut away in the 70s. Nigel Olsen Phill Collins . i love a fat drum sound so i still play poer toms and they are also call them concert toms .i play to this day tama rock stars with aquariun reflecter drum heads .they are so powerful and fat.i love the sound. Its9 piece and i use paistes. I wouldn't change a thing .
Coincidentally, I was watching the latest video on the Australian _The Drum Thing_ YT channel earlier today, which featured a horrible, made in China 'Jin Bao' kit, and it too included an 11" Power Tom! 😀 And the guy said he was having trouble finding an 11" head for it in his area! 😅 By the way, and if I remember correctly: Weren't Sonor the first to offer actual _square_ rack tom sizes?
Is the only way to purchase new power toms through custom orders with manufacturers? I don’t think I’ve seen a single shell pack offered in larger depths.
I just heard Kyle say about the 20" floor tom that you can get heads because of the 20"Bass drums,but I have one, and they don't take Bass heads because they don't have Hoops they have a standard sized rims which takes a quarter inch bead not a 1/2"or5/8" like a Bass Drum head. I had a Bonham set built by Ludwig with a 14,X 6.5"Super Sensitive Snare, 15X12" 18X20" 20X22"Toms and a 14.5X 26"Bass.Custom built left handed in 1976.
I had that Custom Z ad in my locker. I swore I'd buy one one day. It was the first thing I bought when I started making money. Found a 6 piece with snare for $1200 on ebay. $800/$400 shipping. I love it. Still makes me smile like a 14 year old when I look at it.
"Like a kid having a Ferrari." Also, two years ago I bought that 1969 six piece virgin double bass Pearl 'Big Shot' Tiger's Eye finish set off craigslist in fantastic condition with original bags for $450, and he delivered it! Ive gotten some lucky deals for sure.
Thats awesome - Perfect thing to hang in your locker :) Congrats on getting the dream kit!
sonor founder hurst link saw the deads mickey hart who'd mounted a 14x14 on a tom holder, the year was 77 and the rest is history,.......verified in modern drummer.....and by sonor and by mickey hart
Fascinating!
He and Kreutzmann with those matching Sonor sets …. Sounded so good.
Actually Gretch & Ludwig offered five Drum set-up's (the Rock Kit's) in the 60's Bass ,Snare and three Toms where the two Rack Tom's were the same size.
I have a 8 piece older pearl export drum set I love it
There was no other drum company that was more aggressively pushing the Power Tom concept than Ludwig Drum Company for more than 25 years. So when Kyle stated that the Drum Companies still produce the Power Tom Sizes, he was only partly correct. When I inquired with my local Ludwig Drum Dealer regarding making a drum set with Power Toms, I was saddened and surprised to learn that the power Tom sizes of been completely discontinued by Ludwig and so and are Not available as a Stock or even a Custom order.
Why would some replies cite 14x10 and 15x12? They are just the next progression in normal tom sizes, never claimed to be 'power or deep' toms just by head diameter.
Reliably, Tama Xtras had a philosophy of one inch shorter length than drum diameter, that confirms an intention to avail a noticibly deeper tom selection, which was satisfying to see at 14x13 and 15x14.
Whereas Pearl inclined two inches shorter say 12x10 and just like Yamaha, contradingly, beside a square 10x10!
Oddly I own Tama 8x9 and 8x8 Superstars and 10x9 and 10x10 Rockstars they sound and look great and far more classy than same era Pearl 8 or 10 with a double ended snare lug in their middle. Lol.
Pity Sonor Signature and Pearl Custom Z square sizes now, being a great statement in catalogue appearance but awkward in use, looks and transit these days.
I hear the difference in tom depth, especially noticable in recordings live or studio, to be doong, doong, in deep toms and thoog thoog in short.
I have an 11" Granstar Custom Tom, it's kinda cool
I love Kiss Alive 2
Peter Criss his power Toms sounded good. So did Eric Singer
check out nigel olson slingerland set in 1971
Yes you are right. Nigel had some monster toms
Our drummer has a piano black Granstar 2 kit with an 11” Tom on it (and a virgin kick).
Very cool 👍
Kyle Schneider's drum story and memories are straight out of my (hypothetical) autobiography. My story varies when I cheated on Pearl with Tama and lost my pants in a White (Lars Ulrich style) 9-Piece TAMA Granstar II - Lars endorsed his (Tama Artstar II 9 pieces LU Signature drum kit)
Ginger Baker was the first to use double bass in rock music and was the inspiration for other drummers (such as Nick Mason) to use such a set up.
i tot it was louie bellson
@@speeddevil8763 In a roundabout sort of way, as it was from listening to Louie Bellson that Ginger Baker got the inspiration to use double bass.
Somewhere Nick Mason stated (in his autobiography?) that he started using double bass after seeing Baker use them. In many videos of the early days of Pink Floyd (mid-1960's) Mason is seen using a single bass. (Idk exactly when he started using double bass, probably sometime around or after Piper At The Gates of Dawn was recorded in 1967.)
John Bonham used double bass for a while until Page and Plant made him switch to single bass as two bass drums took up too much room on the stage. As a result, he had to do on a single bass drum set-up licks many drummers would find hard to do on a single bass, and yes he too was inspired to use double bass by Ginger Baker.
So yeah it was ginger Baker who started the whole double bass thing in rock music.
i agree, more drum & cymbals. the better, not so restricted.can express more & better. lol
I have some power toms on my Tama Rockstar kit
Awesome!
I've been trying to piece together a double bass power tom kit for years, similar to Tommy Lee's kits from 84-86, and they seem to be nearly impossible to find now. I can't stand little shallow toms. I hate the way they look.
3958. Yep. Thats me
You can not forget about Yoshiki from X JAPAN.
Billy Hart uses power toms as well
Here's Ansley Dunbar in 1979 with Ludwig power toms and his 20" bass drums, which seems interesting.
th-cam.com/video/-idcF9YCmMw/w-d-xo.html
love these double drum kits, for ir five, is not enough. i discovered, at 15 years of age. more the better, & like Neil Pearts or vanHalens drummers Kit. lol
Not to be pedantic, but it's SONOR (German name), not SONAR (a type of underwater detection device). Interesting discussion, but not quite fully researched.
At 21:40 Kyle noted the 11" tom-tom made by Tama. He thought it was a typo saying that he had never heard of an 11" tom-tom. Phil Gould, co-founder of Level 42, discusses his 11" tom and Tama drum kit in a 1988 Modern Drummer interview:
www.moderndrummer.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/md98cs.pdf
I once comment on Kyle's page that he was distracted with too many drums and feels he has to hit them all when he plays. To each his own I guess.
Dave Grohl with the massive rack during the Nirvana days! 🔥🔥
Thing was a legit floor tom!
I have every Tama Rockstar DX size Tama offered, love power toms! Personally, I think Tama & Sonor did power toms the best, not really a Pearl fan. Tama reached the masses better, every 80s-90s metal bands used Tama. Metallica, Slayer, Nirvana, GNR, Aerosmith, Megadeth(i believe), Suicidal Tendencies, Anthrax , just to name a few.
Power Toms on my full GMS kit. Worst mistake I've made in Music.. down with power Toms.
60s bigger kits, Keith moon, ginger baker.
Big kits are the best🤘
Good riddance to power toms I don’t miss them
Haha I respect that
Unless u have a 20” kick. Its way too comfortable. Especially if u have a big 24” which would sound great… but not worth the sacrifice ergonomically.
@@csciabar Mounting them on a stand & not on the bass drum is the way to go. Agree that a traditional 5 pc config is pretty wonky. I have an '89 Ludwig that was the typical "metal" set up - double bass (24") with the racks on a stand and two floors.
Uncomfortable
@@kchez5586 i dont how lars played four of them. Its too much. Lol.
How about Mikkey Dee?