Why Do Drum Brands Sound Different? with Jeff Kirsch - EP 242
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ส.ค. 2024
- Jeff Kirsch teaches us the real reason why the biggest drum brands in the world sound different from each other, and in some cases, why they sound exactly the same. We discuss brands such as Ludwig, Gretsch, Leedy, Tama, Camco, DW, just to name a few. We talk about the different shell constructions, ply counts, use of re-rings, rise of Japanese builders and the fall and resurrection of the great American brands and a whole lot more!
Jeff is a master drum builder and a staple of the custom drum builder scene in the USA. He always brings a great perspective to all aspects of the drum industry so I really appreciate hearing his insight on this topic. Check out his site at www.kirschdrums.com and find him on Instagram at @kirschdrumsportland
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Thank you Bart and Drum History Podcast for the shoutout and especially for providing such a great resource for us drummers to learn about these topics in great detail. Drum History is truly one of the best podcasts around!
I think most people, drum makers included, don't fully understand why drums sound the way they do, and the physical traits that contribute to the sound. By a huge margin, nearly all (often all) of the sound that you hear when you strike a drum comes from the head. This is just physics. When you hit a drum, you are putting energy into the drum, and that energy gets turned into the movement of the various parts of the drum. That energy will get converted into motion following the path of least resistance, and the head is much, much more flexible than the shell, and orders of magnitude lighter (less mass), so nearly all of that energy is spent moving the heads. Any resonance of the shell and the lugs will be of an amplitude much, much smaller than that of the head. Not to mention, the drum shell with all of the hardware attached will have a specific resonant frequency, and you'll only get significant resonance of the shell/hardware if the drum head(s) is tuned to a frequency which causes sympathetic resonance of the shell/hardware. Even then, the resonance of the shell/hardware will effect the resonance of the head much more than be resonance that creates a pressure wave large enough to make it to your ear. So, in an indirect way, the shell construction and hardware can have an effect on the sound of the drum. Another factor to consider is that when you strike a drum, there's a pressure wave created that emanates from the batter and resonant head, and this pressure wave curls around the side of the drum and can meet each other, further effecting the pressure wave (constructive/destructive interference) that eventually makes it to your ear. Drums are far more similar to loudspeakers than drum makers realize, and I'm not aware of any mainstream drum companies that fully understand the the connection between how loudspeakers and drums generate sound.
They ALL do. They've known for decades. A mic is an Inverted speaker. The mic inside your ear is called an EAR DRUM... Or the tympanic membrane... It's because all instruments are like playing an inverted microphone. You think something that can't project sound is an instrument for sound? You think Ludwig and Sonor perfected the drum sound by accident? Have you noticed how the acoustic chambers in guitars got replace by a speaker with electric guitars? Drums came way, way, way, before the speaker and modern physics. Drum sounds were perfected few decades after modern physics. I wonder why...🤔
@@christopherlee4648 as someone who builds both loudspeakers and drums, I can say with 100% certainty that drum makers do not at all use the acoustic theories from loudspeaker design when building drums. No loudspeaker designer anywhere tries to use "tone" woods in their loudspeakers. Their goal is to make the most rigid, non-resonant enclosures they can to maximize the output of the speaker driver. Since you brought up Sonor, they're the only ones who I've ever seen market heavy, non-resonant shells as a good thing. In the 70s they had brochures full of testing data that showed that heavier, non-resonant shells sounded better. Of course, they still make some heavier shells, but no one is actively trying to market non-resonant shells or shell materials, even if the science says that's better. Loudspeaker designers also design the enclosures based on Thiele/Small parameters. These T/S parameters describe the electro-mechanical properties of woofers, and they allow the designer to create an enclosure of the correct size to get the optimal performance from the woofer. There is no equivalent today in drum making. No one is characterizing drum heads to understand the optimum shell depth to get the peak performance of the head. Instead, drum companies try to tell us that a resonant shell is what we want, when the sound that actually does come from a shell never even makes it to your ears because the amplitude is so small. I have actually been working on developing an equivalent of Thiele/Small parameters for drum heads, and I believe that this work has the potential to allow creation of drums that really do measure and perform better than current designs.
@@bugless78 You must be living under a rock making drums and speakers. All speakers use wood casings. The speaker cone is the drum head. Last time I checked heavy shells are still the holy grail for heavy music. Those heavy sonors are worth a ton. They stopped making thick shells because they are heavy and expensive to ship and make. Not everyone likes thin shells. Not sure how you think a cylinder can be improved much more. Mass is not that complex. Neither is geometry.
@@christopherlee4648 Every high end speaker is designed with the goal of making a non-resonant enclosure, full stop. This is not up for debate. This is a fact of life when designing speakers. Not all speakers are made from wood, though most are. Some are made from aluminum or carbon fiber, and many are made from MDF specifically because it has naturally low resonance. Speaker cabinets are also heavily internally braced to reduce resonance further. Energy that makes the cabinet resonate is energy that could instead be used to more efficiently drive the speaker cone. The concept is similar in drums. Any energy spent making the shell resonate is energy that could have made the head resonate more efficiently. It might blow your mind that you can create a drum shell out of MDF and it will still sound like a very good drum as long as there are good bearing edges. Heck, DW made some snare drums out of non-resonant concrete and they sound great. When you hit a drum, the sound that makes it to your ear is generated by the motion of the drum heads, just like the sound that comes from a speaker comes from the motion of the cones. I challenge anyone to provide a measurement showing that a drum shell produces a tone when the head is struck that can be heard over the sound of the head. I'll wait.
@@bugless78 Yes but they still resonate in every speaker, so they use wood. And we use aluminum drums as well. Last time I checked speaker casing does matter. Aluminum has qualities of being one of the fastest metals for its mass. Surely you would agree that this makes a difference.
The notion that a bearing edge being similar to the nut and bridge on a guitar cannot be overstated.
Thanks for getting that!
I just fell in love with my first hearing an old 60s Ludwig kit. That’s the sound for me. Currently playing Ludwig Maples and see no need to spend more.
I’ve owned Pearl and Tama SuperStar from 83/84-Great drums and sound as well.
I love all drums but as you said no real reason to spend more unless you just want to splurge. Sound wise just find your sound and need.
Thanks for the great info. God Bless
From Jeff Kirsch video's I learned how to do my own bearing edges on my kits. I use a simple 12" carousel & 36" round board one side 120 grit sandpaper glued to it. A granite slab that's level. My kits sing!
its amazing how big ludwig were and how awful they were at constructing drum shells.
Yeah, I was shocked. That bulge! Vom!!
Just to be clear, from a woodworking perspective, soft and hard woods have nothing to do with how "hard" or "soft" they are. Hardwoods come from trees that produce leaves (deciduous) and softwoods come from conifers (pine, fir etc..). There are some hardwoods that will dent and scratch much easier than pine. He is probably speaking in terms of density, just know if you go into a specialty woods store to buy something and say I want hard or soft woods... you may need to reference density in addition.
In the context of drums, soft and hard is in regard to janka scale and density and flexibility
Yeah. i near had to turn off when he ketp saying that, his understanding and not mentioning the janka scale put him in a low position of understanding to be talking about this topic. Balsa is a hardwood!
@@krusher74
Balsa?
@@krusher74 next time ill focus more on semantics:)
i only mention this because i'm a stickler for details...
timber, lumber and veneers to make all types of wood products are generally put into two categories.
angiosperms are called hardwoods and gymnosperms are called softwoods. the terms in this context do not describe the hardness/density of the wood. maple is much harder than poplar and are both called hardwoods. fir and yew are both called softwoods but both are harder than poplar and many other hardwoods.
i think the most important factors in sound are the head, the bearing edge and the overall density/composition of the shell
o7
It's a fair point. I should've said "harder woods" and "softer woods" or mentioned the janka scale.
@@portlanddrums cheers mate
i made some stave shell out of western red cedar but lost my shop space and haven't been able to turn and finish them. i also want to give spruce a try.
I have a handful of drums that Jeff has fixed up for me. They absolutely rock. I will never get rid of them.
Great video. One note on Slingerland vs Ludwig. My 1964/65 Slingerland shells are (outer to inner plies) mahogany/poplar/maple with Maple rings. Earlier Slingerlands were mahogany/polar/mahogany.
Thanks Jeff and Bart for your information on drums, drum shells and manufacturing of drums. It gives us a better perspective on why a drum sounds like it does.❤
Don’t forget the Japanese were most likely providing exclusively drums and guitars etc for the old catalog sales of JC Penney’s, Sears , Montgomery Wards et, al
Great episode! I've been a Tama guy since I started playing in the mid 80's. As an adult, I still like vintage Tama's, but I also love DW. I live in Ventura, Ca which is like a 10 minute drive down the 101 Freeway to the DW factory in Oxnard, Ca. So of course I have a DW kit. I also have a PDP Concept Maple kit with wood hoops, But my go to snare is a 1976 Ludwig Acrolite I scored at a thrift store for $75.00. This is a super informative episode, but at the end of the day, I think it comes down to each drummers individual ear and what they want to hear. A lot of people "Poo Poo" me for having a PDP Concept Maple kit, but to me it sounds great!! And when I use it for a gig, nobody complains about it. It's only the purists that lose their Sh!t over it. Just like guitar players if you're playing an Epiphone Les Paul as opposed to an American made Gibson. If it sounds good and makes people get up and move, Who cares Who's logo is on it?!
As long as it's not Mapex 😉
Thanks both of you :) On a Gretsch Catalina maple kit there is a full sheet of veneer on the inside and no paint for reference ;)
I would suspect the reason the really old drums we see don’t have splitting simply because of survivor bias. No one is keeping and passing down their great great grandfathers drums from 1924 that are falling apart. However, plenty of ppl will keep their granddaddy’s 1924 vintage kit if it’s still in decent shape and a lot of ppl still have their dad’s 1962 black oyster Ludwig that just needs some TLC.
I would be shocked to see a kit from the 50s or before without splitting in it. Particularly because these edges were wet from time to time. Steam bent shells are generally the only drums to survive this era.
For the first time ever I hear / see a reference to Lyle. I got a set of those in blue sparkle from an older kid in 1981. I always wondered the origin of those but never could find anything. Thin shells with no rings. They sounded damn good for what they were.
Mr Kirsch, regarding bearing edges not being stained, lacquered & polished after 184-ish, Ludwig did that to their Super Classic line from 88-94. I own a 89 set of these & inside of the shells are stained, but not lacquered like outside. Bearing edge is the same way. Also, 4 ply shells, 6mm, NO rings
Cool! Thanks for the info. I've never actually seen those. Probably because the edges are round and sealed so people dont have issues with them. I generally only see stuff that customers are struggling with.
Another awesome episode brother! Jeff Kirsch is a legend for dropping all his knowledge on us. 🤘🏻
Super informative episode Bart. There is only one problem. You never mentioned Sonorr drums. The oldest trump company in the world. Would love to see you in episode! And it would be awesome to hear jeff's view on their shells. Keep it rolling brother
Yeah, as a sonor fan its a travisty, every podcast I could add thing that sonor gave done to the conversation.
Sonor are super interesting. Their diameter is undersized compared to US drums. This makes them tune and hold tune super well.
One of my favorite episodes Thank you guys a lot. I got a Canopus RFM maple it (Japanese) and have a INdeDrumlab Maple both really good sounding kits when I want to go back in time I play my 60’s Slingerland Mahoghany/Maple/Poplar and my Rogers
I cant say I enjoyed this one, It basically got stuck in the weeds for the first 30 mins about ludwig being awful at carpentry and not being able to construct a scarf joint for 50 years. For a 1.5 hour podcast there was about 10 mins of info. The answer to the title "Why Do Drum Brands Sound Different?" basically came down to each companies random bearing edge finish. Ludwing soft and unround low sustain, tama/yamaha hard and straight more sustain.
I thought it was me. I don’t want to go dark on the guy, but this was a bit had for me to hang in.
:) It's not that they were awful at carpentry. It's the technology of the calf head era. It didnt matter if drums were round. And most of the current structural issue you'll find isn't a factor of poor construction as much as 60 plus years with no maintenance.
Maybe you should listen more closely. There was lots of information. For example, I had no idea that tama were aligning their bearing edge to exactly fit remo heads. Etc etc
1:48 "Why do drum brands sound different?" Simply because 80% of the sound coming from a drum is due to the drum head(s). "Engineer's Guide To Tuning And Damping Drums" is an article in Sound On Sound (SOS). In the article's first paragraph, you'll read that science has proven that drum heads are responsible for 80% of the sound of a drum. That leaves only 20% of the sound of a drum is from its construction components, mainly the shell. I would bet the human ear cannot discern that 20%. The heads are what we're hearing. Also, the oldest drum factory in the U.S. is Noble & Cooley. In the world, Sonor. 5:38 Technically, poplar is a hardwood, but is soft.
You are correct. But i will add that while sound comes from the head not unlike the strings on an acoustic guitar. But that 20% (shell construction and hardware) you mentioned makes up the characteristics we refer to as “tone”. in that guitar analogy that would be the body construction and hardware as well.
Of course the head can vary as well.
Great info ! Thanks!❤
I have a 12-ply birch Eames Mastertone kit from the 80s. It sounds like no other kit I've ever played. Not just because of the wood or plies, but in the way they lay up the plies in a spiral instead of concentric rings. You should reach out to Mark Kholer at Eames and get him on for an episode to talk about Eames, the founder, Ralph Eames and his connection to George B. Stone and the early days of drum makers in the US. It is a fascinating drum shell company that flies way under the radar.
Fascinating, so very interesting and inspiring, thank you so much
Cool episode. I wish y'all had covered Sonor and Premier. I would like to hear Kirsch's take on Sonor's Phonic shells and Premier's Elite / Projector shells. Maybe another episode?
it like everytime they are having a car convo about ford toyota and Mazda and level out rolls royce and Mercedes.
What are some examples of common modern softwood drums? From what I've seen, most drums nowadays are hardwood.
I've been a listener of the podcast for years, but lately I've been holding off on listening because of FOMO; I'm afraid of missing out on valuable visual insight that I'd gain by watching the TH-cam version instead. Please advise. Thanks.
LOVE THIS CHANNEL
I have RC from 86-88 and they seem pretty rounded to me. This was after the painted edges went away.
When music / Ludwig exploded after The Beatles, Ludwig started spraying the interiors white because the wood was different, mahogany, maple etc, so they looked the same. Yes, they also added the time stamp.
Exactly. They used what they could get. They knew it wouldnt effect sound because the sound is dominated by the poplar.
Surprised no mention of Sonor, or in the USA, Noble & Cooley.
Yep, while ludwig were performing awful carpentry, sonor and noble had it down. they were also on the nodal mounting point so early noble sued sonor.
@@krusher74 N&C happens to be one of the most "ripped off" of drum companies (besides Rogers). They had the Nodal mounting point, cast snare drum (Alloy Classic), Cool Mount tom system, etc. all ripped off by especially the Japanese companies. No knock on those companies as they were responsible for really bringing up the quality of drums and hardware. After watching this video I'm kicking myself because I had one of the Yamaha Recording Custom drum sets with the finished bearing edges that I bought new in 1983. I sold it about 5 years ago. If I only knew.
It's so hard to get everything in under an hour
@@dancalabrese3523
The first Tama Star Classic was N&C CD Maple replica and Pearl UltraCast snare was an Alloy Classic replica also .
@@blueavadis22 Thanks. I knew about the Pearl snare, but not about the Tama Star Classic, but it doesn't surprise me. Noble & Cooley is a very special drum company. I own a Horizon kit and after having sets like Sonor, Yamaha Recordings Custom, Premier, Ludwig, Rogers and Gretsch I can say the N&C kit is the best I have ever owned.
It's too bad Joe Montineri passed away, he would have would have been able to explain in detail the shell composition and bearing edges for all the manufactures.
Joe knew exactly what glues were used and ply thickness .He was in charge of product development at Keller for years.
Such a genius and a teacher of mine. Miss that guy.
My Corder are Jasper shells with Fibes hardware, certainly not flawed, yes, they have no “special silver Paint” Maple and Gumwood. Fantastic.
Oh looking for more info on Nordic?!?! 👀👀👀
Poplar is a stable hardwood….like mahogany
Poplar sounds horrible.
I don't think he meant hardwood and softwood. He meant hard and soft wood.
@@cwinsten1 Listen to a Noble & Cooley Union kit and see if you still feel the same way.
@@cwinsten1but it's good as an inner ply
Great stuff guys! 👏👏🥁
Slingerland made 3 ply and Radio King (steam bent) certainly different from Ludwig?
Slingerland and ludwig 3 ply are nearly identical
@@portlanddrumsnearly but slingerland used mahogany v.s. Ludwig more maple
@@portlanddrums steam bent is different. That’s a naive comment.
@@mwdrum You mentioned 3ply. identical to ludwig. But yeah, steam bent is one ply
@@TK-xo2mf They both used mahogany and maple interchangeably. Many times both woods in the same kit.
Discussions such as these are interesting but to some, misleading. The resonance/absorption factor of hard/soft woods is so minimal that visual input is required to confirm the 'differences'. Conduct blind tests and you'll soon find out that heads, interior volume and even drumstick selection are more consequential. It reminds me of the electric guitar discussions wherein the finish supposedly alters the tone at the output. We humans are funny creatures. :)
Because they have different names. Dih!
A more pressing question for me is why do different drum brands *feel* different? It’s like cars. Toyotas feel different than Dodge’s. But within the brand, they feel similar. Drums are the same for me. DW’s feel different than Tama, and they both feel different than Yamaha. I don’t understand, but I’ve played on many many kits over the last 38 years and my findings are consistent.
it the way the head osolates on the bearing edge and the want that interacts with the bottom head. think of it like a basket ball you are bouncing one may feel pumped up hard, one is half flat. (ludwig = half flat.)
Is there anybody out there that didn’t know the answer before the presentation?
Bart's mic good. Jeff's mic cheap. Cool show though. Yeah for quality mics with no reinforcement rings.
New mic on the way :)
I feel ripped off buying a Tama star kit now. 😂
If you bash anything Neil Peart related at least get his last name right. Neil has video explaining the shells and why he likes them.
I never heard his drums sound bad
What, I’m 20 minutes in. No mention of Rogers , Gretsch , very little. I’ll wait before I add my 2 cents. Him saying zero difference in sound, shells etc, ? What ?
Spoiler alert! Cliff Hanger makes the best bearing edges in the world. Why would they ruin it for us like that?
They don't. It's just the wood, the thickness, how many plys. And the rims And heads.
It's no rocket science.
The brand is just a name and in which way they combinate the factors
Anything but those Awful sounding
Phill Collins drums UGH!! 😵😫 😆
Jasper started making plywood tubes for concrete after WW2 and it expanded to drums when Gretsch came to them!
There are tooooo many things that make a drum sound as it does, wood type, bearing edge, re rings, thickness, hardware, glue type, veneer thickness, glue cure, hoops , heads....
I agree totally. I’ve heard people say it’s mostly the heads. I’ve had many different wood drums and you can’t get the same sound by changing heads . You can though get a decent to good sound out of most wood types.
So much also goes into the quality and price of a drum set.
@@Thesmokymountainman yeah.. big picture as said on podcast , a cheap kit worked over a bit can sound great. But having a " high end" kit has something lower end kits have. Being a drummer and nerd, slitting the hairs is kind fun. What secrets do the details hold?
@@Camcodrummer basically ludwig poorly constructed shells with uneven bearing edges, some people like the way that degrades a drums resonance.
Weird question yet, i think it's fairly obvious, and a 1.5 hour video is overkill, lol.
Very interesting en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leedy_Manufacturing_Company Pearl 4 ply maple MMX and Masters Maple Reserve have reinforcement rings.