I have a wild though, in my opinion it's not tank,not support, it's always sustainability problem in this game. Other 5v5 multi game are very careful about healing,they almost never give support direct heal ,so maybe 2 Tank,2Dps 1sup and change passive or health pack mechanic. It's way easier punishable.
I mean….6v6 is already a possibility. All blizzard has to do is release an “Overwatch classic” game mode with 6v6. Start by using the open queue versions of tanks and balance from there. I think all that needs to happen is enough people need to complain/ask for it. Similar to what happened with WoW classic.
The problem with 5v5 is that Alot of the tanks in overwatch are not designed to be played by their own in overwatch there is 2 dps,2support and suppose to be 2 tanks if there is not 2 tanks then that mean one tank get focused down in 2 seconds and makes it not fun for the sole tank player. overwatch needs to go back to 6v6 or the game is as good as dead and once marvel rivals comes out with 6v6 its game over for overwatch.
Automatic value is not fun for anyone, not even the person using it. Blizzard needs to realize this and stop babying their playerbase. This is one of the reasons I don't appreciate balance by stat buffs. It's essentially just raising the level of automatic value a character has.
Yes, the devs don't get it. I think it's a hard balance because they want to push new content always; but part of me wishes the game was super barebones and allowed for skill expression to provide all the value.
Yeah, it's not really "fun" looking at the ground and wasting an entire DVa bomb with suzu, I didn't do anything, I feel like I not only cheated my victory for no risks but that I also cheated that Dva from their moment to shine with an ultimate
@@geffernof course they get it. You really think they don’t get it? There are millions and millions of dollars tied up in this game. They are making decisions based on what will make them the most money. If making it easy for bad players to get value gets those players to buy more skins, Blizzard will do it.
They're babying their player base on every front that's why the game feels like trash in my opinion. The wave respawns, the delayed spawns so you're with your team, bigger projectiles, bigger health pools. It all adds up.
If Moira grasp does 60 dps, it takes 4 seconds to kill 250hp targets. Asking a bronze player to do more damage than she’s self healing in that amount of time is crazy. She’s almost impossible to 1v1 in low ranks
I hate Moira so much 💀if the devs really want to keep her "newbie hero" status they need to nerf her overall kit. Fade CD from 6 to 8 sec, right click damage from 60 to 55, left click from 70 to 60 healing per sec, lifesteal from 20/s to 10/s. Or make it so that lifesteal is interrupted in some ways when she takes damage. I'm okay with easy heroes that can introduce new players to the game, but that b*tch shouldn't be remotely as effective as Ana when she requires no mechanical skill and a very small amount of brain cells.
"just hit all your shots without missing, dumbass" There's a reason why I'm still bronze, that doesn't mean I should be destroyed because one dude decided to pick a hero that doesn't even need to put his crosshair over me to damage me
So the bronze player is just standing out in the open tanking moira right click? How about asking a bronze player to use cover so they dont take full 60 dps?
@@ironman1458 say that to me while on the middle of my whole team on a big TF and the Moira dives in through our tank just to kill me while full life lol, that bitch thought she was echo or some shit
@@ironman1458 then again, moira can just flank behind the cover with her dash and just need to look in the general direction, hold right click and she kills
I love that you keep championing that low level players don't need cheap value heroes to engage with the game. I have hated how thats always some excuse for boring character design.
"Cheap" or "low skill" heroes aren't just for low ranked players. They are also for players with disabilities to be able to pick up and enjoy the game. Not everything is about skill.
@@Damocles450 Isn't that the point of matchmaking? To pair people up of similar skill? How do you match people of similar skill if one player gets easier value from a character? What happens when they can't exploit that character? There are real life examples here. We have the paralympics which is really cool and affords so much opportunity to people with handicaps. It pairs people of similar ability and handicaps and gives them an equal and fair standing to compete. They don't just throw people with handicaps in races and say you get 100m head start. Isn't this what matchmaking is supposed to do? Even the field so that everyone has the opportunity to have fun? The only reason this is ever really a problem is because people smurf and pub stomp, but in reality thats just a small amount of games.
@@Damocles450 Okay then expand upon your point instead of just acting like a smart ass. Everything is not about skill! Okay so then whats your point? Your point is its about people with disabilities having fun. Why can't they have fun on Genji? Even if you play Genji bad, its a fun character. You swing a sword around and look like a cool ninja. So why won't they have fun? Because they might not win? I have lost tons of games trying to learn new characters. Who cares? I had a blast. Maybe its that they want to play with friends. Good news. You can do that on quickplay with a massive variety of skill levels. If its not about skill or winning, then why can't they just play tracer? Its the frustration of losing and feeling like they aren't impacting the game that stops them. How do you fix that? Matchmaking.
@@Whokilledkenny9That point only really works if the matchmaking was a solid effective system but we all know ow matchmaking can be god awful more often than not
The 'noob' heroes have always been a problem and still are. I recently sweated my ass off as tank to carry an incredibly difficult game. I reviewed it after - almost all of the players involved - our dps, their supports - were playing great and trying their hardest to win. Then I watched our Mercy - she did literally nothing except damage boost our mccree and attempt 3 rezzes (2 of which failed and led to her death, due to bad timing) yet she was the same rank as the rest of us. The gap in game awareness and positioning was night and day.
Winston main here. I get pretty annoyed when I have to play against counter comps. The reason is that almost every winston hard counter is a noob hero. The only exception might be brig, but even she’s close. When I go up against hog reaper bastion (fairly common occurrence) I know for sure that none of those players are going to outskill me, but they have a very good chance of winning the game, because their heroes take so much space for free that I’m totally helpless. I hate these noob hero tank buster characters so much. They literally ruin the game for me. And people are constantly playing them in ranked.
ive been playing this game for a couple weeks now and sit around gold as a dps (i feel i grew a lot from bronze where i initially placed) by watching vids and figuring out stuff like timing, positioning, space, and fixing up my mouse DPI and stuff and doing the practice range and deathmatch between my matches. i play soldier. when i lose games i feel like i'm learning and i'm able to keep a positive mental for the next game. i still feel like there's a TON i can improve on and i know i make a bunch of mistakes in my matches that i'm trying to work on. but it feels like a lot of the ppl playing this game get very very very frustrated playing the game. some ppl even lament that they've lost like 13 games in a row or something when they lose their match. there's tons of hero swapping which feels to me like something that results from a paper mental rather than from being skilled with multiple heroes. there's a lot of instant flaming over really small setbacks and flaming teammates and offering bad advice to teammates as a desperate attempt to win, etc. the general vibe i'm getting from a lot of the low ranked playerbase is honestly just exhaustion more than anything.
God I rarely play this game now, but man I love deep discussions about it. The game deserves this level of thought, and deserves to become better, because it does so many things right it's always so close to perfection. Very keen to watch this through.
Well yeah it is close because the heroes themselves have always been designed super well, while the game suffers from _fundamental_ flaws. There's a big difference between a game that's half-baked vs a polished game with particular issues that even the community struggles to identify, articulate and come to a consensus about after 8 years. Hence, close to perfection.
@josepha377 try asgoldian ale, you can get it at the rising sun pub during and after the dwarf rfd subquest xD. And yes I have been playing runescape again because I simply cannot play ow at the moment because I'm done getting countered entire game and never able to play a hero I would like to play or enjoy playing for more than 2 minutes at most. And I play every single tank. I enjoy allot of them, they are get countered so fast though.
The single biggest thing I hate about the noob characters is knowing if I pick them my team has a better chance of winning. It is also to easy for players to deny value by pressing H in spawn and going something braindead.
I love Ana but the amount of effort and practise I need to put in to counter braindead sombra and Moira 1v1s is insane. It feels really unfair that certain heros get a free 1v1 buff against me. Like yes it's a mechanical skill thing, but gameplay sense doesn't help outside of trying to avoid the 1v1 happening in the first place by using that sense.
@@Raecast Disparity of mechanical skill is a super buzz killer for me too. I am pretty good at spy checking Sombras on Ana, and dealing with cheese characters, and it feels good overcoming their advantage, but would rather it not be a thing in the first place.
I dont really think that all the characters need to have a low skill floor but it would be nice all characters had a high skill ceiling so that they are competitive in higher ranks
We need more like Lucio Winston and mercy have a very basic skill set but you can optimize and learn the characters abilities and improve at using those abilities
@abudgie6909 how you seen the movement of a high level mercy not saying she's the most mechanically hard hero but you put 2 mercy against each other to see who can use their movement to survive better the high level one wins easy
Terrible hero design lead to no one wanting to play tank in ow1 so we got 5v5. Good hero design wont fix 5v5, it will fix 6v6. No one wants to play a role that has to deal with bs abilities/heroes, when Dps and tanks were power crept by supports no one wanted to play those roles. It's not "just a tank issue" when other roles can be affected by bad hero design (and in 5v5's case bad game design).
(WARNING: Plat opinion) If I were to make a tier list of OW2 based on their hero design It would probably look something like this. S: Junker Queen A: Sojourn, Kiriko, Venture B: Rammatra, Illari C: Mauga, Lifeweaver - JQ is great. I love playing as her and I'm never mad when I lose to her - Kiriko, Sojourn and Venture just need a few small tweaks and they'll be fine. - Ram and Illari are fun but feel a bit limited in what they can do. - Mauga and Lifeweaver are tragedies of hero design.
This discussion was one of the best I have ever had the pleasure to see and participate in a while. One of my objectives in this community as a junkrat player is being vocal about our character, both the good and the bad. We are the first ones that want our character to thrive in OW2, and this stream was the best discussion eviroment I have seen in a long time. I think Spilo is making such a good work for being vocal and discussing this kind of topics, and he earns my abosulute respects for it.
I’ve also been in Bronze for a long time before climbing out and I’ve hated characters like moira while being there. It ruins the experience for so many players, just to give the handful of those who decide to pick her up an easier time.
The dynamics presented at the beginning explain what we have seen in TF2 for years. A LOT of new players start playing with higher skill floor mercenaries like Spy and Engie just because they seem fun and interesting, and proceed to be ANNIHILATED by the easier to access ones like Pyro and Soldier. Of course, all mercenaries in tf2 have extreme skill ceilings but at a noob level this is what happens
tf2 also solves this by requiring team compositions to have a solid combo of power classes (heavy,demo,soldier) and support/utility classes (pyro,spy,sniper,scout), as well as the true "healers" (medic, and engie due to the importance of dispensers for fuelling ammo economy/taking stress off of meds) within each category there is an easiest role. soldier, pyro, medic are the core classes of tf2, and pyro and soldier have a variety of counters to eachother's kits, but your level of access to those counters are ENTIRELY dependant on skill expression, meaning a good soldier will ALWAYS kill a bad pyro, so counter swapping isnt just an instant success. there is very LOW minimum value add in tf2.
For a noob, there will always be characters that are harder to play than others. I cannot think of a game that doesn't do this. The difference is that there is not really a class that you can play as a noob to be able to keep up with others as the general skill rises. Much like Winston, pyro has a very basic set of tools, but there is a lot you can do with it (reflecting, flare jumping, game knowledge for spy checking), and like with Winston, being a noob pyro will get you stomped against better players. Meanwhile, throw a bronze Moira into a gold lobby and they'll be able to hold their own based on the free value and skill floor.
Though pyro has insane skill ceiling (diferent from moira) It also has a lot of free value. New players just hold w+m1 and get kills because aim is basically not required and afterburn is a busted mechanic.
@@nicholaspisetta3842 Yes. Precisely. Pyro is the lowest skill floor class in the game, but anyone who REALLY knows what they're doing will be able to put down a new player. The minimum value add is not so egregious that player expression and skill are squashed. Edit: Also, afterburn was nerfed. It used to be much, much more oppressive. It now "builds up" while exposing someone to direct flame, and then counts down when you stop hitting them with flame hitboxes. Pyro can easily make a ton of space, but outside of their immediate surroundings, they have little influence on what the other team can accomplish. A new player on pyro can't clear highgrounds, can't reflect to get picks on medics, doesn't know how to reflect turret rockets, etc etc, the list goes on. Point is, Valve took nine something years to make TF2 for a reason. Class based team shooters are incredibly difficult to make fun for everyone who might play them.
Not only do I 100% agree that people that only play noob heroes dont learn important fundamentals of the game, im pretty sure these people THINK they are learning and playing well because it is so easy to get meaningless stats on those characters
That's true, when I first started playing support I picked Moira because a friend said I would like her, and I did liked her, I kept a decent healing, but as the time went on I started feeling like I wasn't doing anything, same thing with orisa, probably my first tank after Reinhardt, I felt like a was performing well but as my skill increased they started to feel boring (orisa and Moira). So now that I'm more skilled and feel like playing more complicated characters like Ana, Ramattra, genji and Tracer I just feel like shit when someone that has barely any situational awareness sneaks up on a me at the worst possible time, holds m1 on me and I'm completely "outskilled" by the character, not the player, what's the point of using my dash as genji to get to good cover when not only moira will still reach me with her 20m grasp, she can dash even farther away? Yes, I expect playing a hard character to be hard, what the game shouldn't expect is for me to keep trying when I can so easily be shutdown by a character, not a player, unless I have a HUGE mechanical skill to hit all my shots in her head, I won't be able to survive that encounter alone, so I, as a player, need a higher than average skill level in order to beat a character that is being controlled by a player in a lower skill level to mine
For me the big frustrating part is that sometimes Tanks either feel like they are a non factor OR are Raid bosses depending on *your* Teammates. It feels so frustrating sometimes
Something sleep dart, winston and rein shield have in common is that they have a cast time - meaning you have to be proactive because the enemy could hit you before you can cast it, or save it for the perfect moment when you know the enemy is out of options to counter it. That’s what makes Ana vs winston so interesting and fun as a matchup, that’s what makes rein skilful. Genji’s deflect has an instant cast, but it has weaknesses and a decently long cd where he has to play around it. Meanwhile moira fade is instant and fast and she has heal orb to sustain herself until she has it again, meaning she can still be active in the fight. Kiri tp has a short cast time, but tbh it’s both frustrating to die as a kiri while casting it but also frustrating to play against it because of how small that punish window is still. It feels like it should be instant, but despite it not being instant it still feels pointless to try to counterplay it in anyway with a stun or damage.
I think the main issue isn't moira's fade. Yeah it's annoying, but if she has that strong of a get out of jail free card, her duel power (ie damage on a LOCK ON auto attack) should be VERY low. Imo her auto attack should be the lowest damage out of the entire support cast.
I think you say the reasons why new people dont stay in this game, they peack random charceters, who they like something from him, and never feel rewarded
Thank you for being like the single person in the entire creator space actually criticizing the design principles. OW2 isn't bad to play on accident or because of some bad decisions.
Jake and Sam have my favorite debates around tank. I love the idea of 6v6, but double shield showed us the worst stuff and it's obvious the map was way more limited before cuz a DVa would catch the flanking DPS. But tank obviously isn't fun and kinda ruined with the current situation unless you like playing 4+ tanks. As a secondary role it's become a never role
Why people keep saying double shield, it was refuted very long time ago, they could just rework orisa then, and boom no double shield. And maybe nerf sigma. that's all, and people did say it against double shield argument, but 5v5 drones keep forgetting that and keep dangling "double shield" like keys
I think some heroes naturally get more promise to them when they're one or two tricked. Thinking wrecking ball, genji, Lucio, but instead our most common one trick in the game is either mercy or Moira. That gets me very angy when I play the game into 4 strangers
@@Kiba114 But that's not an inherent part of Moira's kit. You don't magically go unpunished by just by existing as Moira. you don't get punished because you made a smart play and set yourself up for maximum success. If anything, Moira is MORE punishable because if you make a mistake, then you have nothing. If what you said were true, then Moiras would never be killable, but you see it all the time when Moira's make bad plays and get punished for it.
@@Damocles450 no because on my first mistake with lets say ana, i already have to deal with it. on moira i dont have to deal with it and my enemies have a small window where i dont have fade and they can punish me, but resources already went into me using dash initially usually
I feel like "noob" heroes in general aren't great for the game because part of this game is growth in understanding and piloting the character, to learn and improve upon using the character, and by having these characters be "viable" just creates characters that continue to be much stronger as the player goes on to learn and play more, for a more "technical" hero, one mistake could mean dying at best and losing the game at worse, but when there's a character that is tuned to still be somewhat competitive with that more technical character, that easier character is not nearly as punished let alone being very hard to make a critical mistake at all. It also very heavily discourages using those more technical characters especially at a lower level
As they add more heros I think they have to shift from the hero fantasy to a risk reward model. Ricky picks like Tracer and genji should be stronger than the soldiers or torbs. But the benefits of those heros are that they're reliable and consistent. This problem is even worse with Mercy and Moira. Heros who should never be 'meta'. But they're reliable over the Zenyatta or Ana picks. We are soon to have so many heros, and heros like Mauga shouldn't exist, a brainless hero with insane output who dominates like 80% of the tank roster.
I just watched the whole thing and it was honestly so damn interesting. I agree with a lot of things you said and I would say every hero added in OW2 is fundamentally pretty well designed except maybe for Mauga who is just way too one dimensional. Kiriko, Sojourn and heck even Lifeweaver could be fixed through balance and minor reworks imho. Nonetheless to me, if we're going to keep the same core abilities of Lifeweaver, he CANNOT be another Mercy. His interactions are way too brutal and game changing to be set on such a low skill floor. I think both his heal and life grip should be on aiming instead of targeting with the latter no longer granting immortality. The cooldown could then be reduced a bit to allow the player to attempt more of these lifegrip moves which consequently would not succeed everytime, since there would be counterplay to it due to the absence of immortality. If life grip still feels oppressive in the sense of denying value too easily, the maximum range could be reduced so the Weaver player would have to position better and potentially take more risk to execute it.
to me some characters could be easy to fix others not so much, I think with Moira given how her primary fire works which is a large invisible sphere that when a target falls within it is hit and the relevant animation centers the effect on the target fiving the impression of lock on. but if that sphere actually shrank over time when biotic grasp is used, making it harder to keep a lock longer rewarding for better aim, but also rewards target players for better defensive movements. this would keep Moria with a low barrier to pick up but also require high skill to get better value. also make her less oppressive to face in that it falls back to more to skill in winning the 1v1 than id does currently.
Thank you for being the one sane person I've seen to actually suggest an intelligent way to make Moira better rather than just "I hate moira remove her from the game"
I would also say another way to do it is to make her left click damage the lowest in the game DPS wise, I mean why should it be strong when she has a built-in aim bot. Her dueling potential should be in her abilities, like her orbs. Make her left click damage SUPER weak, but the longer a target takes damage from ur orb, the more damage they take from ur left click.
As a mid plat player whos trying to improve and climb with high skill heroes, its always frustrating losing a close game to a comp of noob heroes knowing that they most likely weren't better at the fundamentals of overwatch. Always feels like they're just opting to turn their brain off for the win instead of having to learn and apply real game knowledge to improve at the game.
Tanks only really have a problem with counters when their team doesn't want to help them out. Bastion is only a problem for winston when his dps won't handle the bastion for him. Doom only struggles against a bunch of CC when his team is a bunch of scared hitscans who want to sit in the back and can't/won't take advantage of all the focus he baits. Mauga is only a massive struggle vs anti if he doesn't have a kiri. Also a lot of the "noob" heroes like junkrat and mercy don't feel easy at all. It feels so much easier to go zen and get value than it is on mercy. It is way more intuitive to get value on genji who has strong mobility and can dive or someone like sojourn/mcree where you can sit at range and shoot people than it is to play reaper where you need a weird rat gameplay to actually get to an effective range. Most of the noob heroes only seem strong as a way to get value if you're actually the worst player on the team and you just want to get some sort of value.
I agree with your first point so much. So much of tank is about forcing interaction from the oppents to create opportunities for your team. Being "countered" is the ultimate forced interaction. Secondly, in ow1, there was the maintank experience. Which is exactly what is happening right now to a single tank and was the reason tank ques got so long. So while 5v5 doesn't address that, 6v6 didn't either and 5v5 removes things like double shield.
the thing is for the last part you're talking about in higher elos. In metal ranks, it's super easy to get value out of reaper in comparison to genji because a lot of the players at a silver level don't have the mechanics required to do anything on genji. On reaper all they see is "shotgun do big damage" and it'll work since the enemy tank ( who is also silver ) will not know how to work around it. The issue is that a lot of these characters that struggle in high ranks like reaper junkrat, do amazing in low ranks because the enemy team doesnt know how to properly counter or lacks the mechanical skill to counter. Yeah genji CAN be a noob stomper, but that's only if you're better than the people in those silver lobbies. Once you get to your actual rank that reflects your skill level, someone could play a lower skill floor character and potentially get more value than you ( assuming you're not at high elo )
@lukasg4807 Whatever winton you're playing with must be pretty cracked at avoiding the bastion if you make it sound so easy. Personally I'd rather just swap dva than trust my bot genji to help me.
I would like to see the cleanse removed. It’s Protection Suzu so I feel like it should keep the Immortality function and if we remove the cleanse it ties her less to Ana and makes Roadhog and Mauga way worse. It also nerfs the healing because it gets rid of the bonus cleanse healing.
Bud you have it backwards. The immortality NEEDS to go. The cleanse is the whole point of it and is good utility (especially Ana nade is the way it is) Immortalities is the worst thing in overwatch. Bap field, suzu, lifegrip all terrible
@@JulianneStingray The immortality is the more skillful usage of the ability, especially with the duration decrease it has received. The cleanse is also the part that makes it completely trash on so many ultimates, Earth Shatter, Captive sun, Rampage, etc. Also like I said she is tied to heroes like Mauga and Roadhog just because of the cleanse which are both incredibly unhealthy heroes that she alone enables. If we removed cleanse and nerfed Anti’s effectiveness they would be much better abilities and then we could even reduce the cooldowns so they can be better play makers because currently if you play Kiriko into Ana you just have to save Suzu specifically for the Ana and you lose most of your playmaking ability. So no bud you have it backwards.
The thing about counterpicking is that when you do well, you will get punished instead of rewarded, especially on tank. When you do well on winston for example you get counterswapped by maybe at first 1-2 heroes. If you are skilled enough at winston you can still play him and get value, just makes it harder. When you still get value eventually you get countered by the entire enemy team, and you will get punished for playing well. Because now, for the rest of the game, you will be playing tanks that are extremely boring to play and get value, or you play something that does absolutely nothing but survive. I play(ed) this game for fun, I did not enjoy never being able to play a few of my favourite tanks because I'll get insta countered and have to swap. First off, my choices are being limited by the map, secondly by what my teammates pick for heroes, and thirdly by how bad the enemy team will counter me. People play heroes they find fun. Unless you play tank, you play what is required of you, or you will just lose. During that entire process, you have most likely been blamed and flamed at least 10 times by people who are not swapping their heroes because they are 'carrying'. In other words, they are playing heroes they enjoy and choose to continue to do so and won't swap. The fact that I'm getting punished for playing well on tank has made me not play in the last 3 months. I played every single tank and played every single role at diamond level except for plat 2 dps. I started ow in season 14 of ow1.
Biggest flaw for me is that I can't play Comp with my friends on Console while I'm on PC. I see zero reason why Crossplay in Comp isn't doable, Aim Assist can be turned off and the skill gap can be closed with time and practice. I have no other issues with this game.
I think Sombra is generally more noob friendly than Genji right now. Genji is just likeball, lucio, echo or tracer, a hero that feels extremely clunky when you don't know what your doing
A lot of the details in this are getting to the heart of what needs to be discussed, kudos. I do want to point out how limiting the gameplay terminology can be for overall game improvement ("Skill-based", "Value Floor/Ceiling", "Noob ", etc.), as these can inherently lock player ideas, concepts, and frameworks into isolat(ed)ing POVs. This is the main issue with 'High Level Players' constantly saying 'Low Level Play' doesn't matter for balance (despite Spilo saying in this video, those HLPs only make up 5% of the population). It's also one of the main reasons these questions have been so difficult to answer over the years they have been happening; the language being used is limited. Always has been. It's not so much a complex conversation, as it is a series of different but interlocking Conversations around Role Priorities, Conditional Effects, Educational + Learning Systems, UI + Visual Readability, Cognitive Load, and Overwatch's functional variance (Maps + Missions + Hero Kits + Kit combos + Role Function + etc.) that need to be expanded on to start seeing more of the picture for what it is. 5v5 ignores a lot of those conversations though, in favour of simplified, rhetorical fixes: lots of global passives + Role Obligation (instead of execution) + "Individual Impact" (it's a team-based game ffs). Which isn't to say OW1's format was better? But 6v6 was made in an under-equipped laboratory; 5v5 was made in a gym someone dragged a bunch of beakers and flasks into, so they could technically call it a chem-lab, just for tax purposes. There's room for improvements for both, but only one is setup to find answers.
I guess thinking "I almost had it" is crucial, because you won't always be performing at your peak, nor will being at your peak yet be sufficient, but you need to know what you could have done differently. What if I stood behind the other wall? Spun faster? Fled earlier? Aimed higher? As long as you think you are a few adjustments away from doing better, and that impression is true, the game is working.
This is an interesting argument. Making some heroes too easy to play makes other heroes essentially harder to play for less experienced players. I think the point at 13:34 is the most important. There shouldn't be too much disproportionate rewards for playing some characters. Regardless of how simple the basics of the character, you shouldn't have to drastic an advantage over other people playing other characters with similar levels of experience to you.
The problem with free value heroes in low ranks is skill *breakpoints*. Not that they get free value necessarily, I mean mercy gets free value with the beam. A bronze moira will always win against a bronze genji, but a gm moira has zero chance against a gm genji. At some point in the middle, there exists a breakpoint where this matchup is even. In my experience, that one in particular lies around gold.
Is that a problem really though? How should it be otherwise? Should it be that bronze genjis always beat bronze moiras and continue to beat them up through GM? Would that really be fun for new players? It seems like this relationship you've identified is actually a good thing for the game.
I just think that skill needs to be forward, even if the kits remain the same, what if suzu only suzud an area the size of a hanzo arrow, or only affected one hero, what if sombra hack failed and went on cd if you don't perfectly track the target you're trying to hack for the entire duration, what if bastions fire rate ramped up over the course of use, meaning you have to perfectly track to do decent damage, what if reaper fired slugs instead of having a shotgun, what if torbs turret could only watch a cone infront of where you place it, what if mercy had to track her healing targets to keep the beam up, what if Moira had to maintain perfect aim to keep sucking off an enemy or instead of orb randomly bouncing around she pressed to ability again to pause it in a spot, etc etc, there's ways of making things fairer and more skillful without affecting the overall hero fantasy
I think we should retire the term “counterplay.” There should not be counters in games. There should be interplay, i.e. skill matchups or advantages based on choices. And those advantages should require execution, knowledge, or positioning. One solution is abilities should probably have their power nerfed but be more frequent. That fixes the over-reliance on low skill floor heroes and helps with some burst damage or CC on tanks.
I think OW should also remove the ability to swap heroes after a match starts, you should draft your team like other moba games/paladins and live with the draft you made, the ability to swap mid match makes people crutch on swapping over an over vs learning problematic match ups, in fighting games fighting characters that might have an advantage vs yours is a big part of the learning experience.
@@zander2758 Flawed argument imo. Comparing Overwatch to a moba is a thing people do a lot even though its barely even a somewhat fitting comparison, literally the only similarity is that both games have characters with abilities on cooldowns and a powerful ultimate ability. Swapping isn’t a thing in mobas for a variety of reasons, such as character builds/items being a large focus (not a thing in OW) and more importance being placed on lane 1v1s and 2v2s (if you allowed swapping you would just constantly swap against your lane partner, whereas in overwatch the game is mostly teamfight oriented and you have to consider the entire team you’re swapping into). Overwatch has been designed around swapping being a thing since the very beginning because it adds depth to the game and encourages wide hero pools. Counter-swapping didn’t become a problem until OW2 because they changed the format and fucked up the gameplay loop that had been established for years, in addition to adding braindead characters like Mauga that ANYONE can swap to and get value off of. And don’t even get me started on your fighting game argument, matchups are such a core part of fighting games that they are literally WHY people have secondaries and pocket characters to cover matchups that may be severely losing or borderline unwinnable for their main, and “counter-swapping” is DEFINITELY a thing in any best of three or best of five format.
@@--Glory-- first the moba comparison i made is more of a general one, i can also bring up other competitive games that do the same, like how RTS games don't allow you to swap clans mid match or even paladins which is a hero shooter like OW and doesn't allow swapping either. i'd disagree with overwatch being specifically designed around swapping, i mean during the ow1 era high level comps and even now the players barely swapped between matches if at all and only played 1 specific comp in the first place, else it still would be better for people not to be allowed in 5v5 if the hero design is an issue so people have to draft around their picks, someone playing a tank weak to mauga? Pick Ana, your team weak to ball dives? Pick bastion or smt like that, drafting around your team instead of being able to just switch on a dime is far more interesting decision making to me even if the game was designed around swappkng in the first place, also OW also was designed without any role lock to speak of and then they added one, just because a game was designed a certain way at first doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't change things. Okay so here's the thing, fighting games don't allow you to counterswap someone mid match and if you can switch after a match its only for like one character since most FG tournaments allow only 1 or 2 characters to be picked per signing and even then you get stuff like that one F.A.N.G main that got very far while only playing fang and learning to play vs poor matchups instead of swapping, meanwhile in OW you can swap out to anyone at any point, there is no drafting there outside of the player specific drafting.
@@zander2758 I think I'd like the draft idea more if they adjusted the cool downs. I like your point in principle that learning the map and hero matchups is probably healthier, but then cooldowns, generalists, and low skill floor heroes might become an even bigger problem imo. I enjoy your fighting game comparison, and that's why I actually really would like to see them switch from counters. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy, but good fighting games do not have that issue. There are definitely good/bad matchups, but most fighters have flaws and don't overly excel. OW should tweak the really sharp matchups and I think most heroes would benefit.
@@DoubleEm08 i do agree that things like generalists and low skill floor heroes would be a problem, hell they are problems now largely because generalists are too good at everything (like kiriko) and low skill floor heroes often don't have high skill ceilings which makes getting value off them feel too dull and if those heroes are meta they become boring to play against all the time. OW atm at least has people that OTP with any character all the way to places like top 500 and such, which does show that the biggest thing that matters is the players skill rather than the heroes inherent stats, also yeah, fighting games nowdays have improved in how to handle matchups, i mean back then in sf2 sagat vs ehonda was like 8-2 in sagats favor, while in sf5 its a 6-4 in sagats favor, still not a good matchup ofc but the disadvantage isn't large and what matters most is the skill of the honda.
I'm a doom one trick. Im either playing doom or im not playing the game. Idk what happed to OW but after like April my matchmaking has been horrendous. As a doom player I have to rely so heavily on supports that if I don't have one on me almost all the time its an instant loss. The game feels like support check. If you have better supports you win. Don't get me started about counters. Hog, Cree, Sombra, Ana and Brig every game. finally I quit yesterday. Idk what they doing with this game anymore.
I don’t think easy pick up heroes should hard counter other heroes at most a soft counter. For example genji is a high skill ceiling and a hard to pick up character however, his counters are moira, mei, winston, symmetra, zarya, and can argue any flyers for lower level players. Most of those characters you just look in the general direction and do damage. It doesn’t seem right that a moira that throws out dmg orb and holds right click can kill me in 3 secs where as I have to hit my whole combo perfect within that time frame. It’s like I’m playing chess and the moira is playing tic tac toe and she’s a fucking SUPPORT. As for counterplay there should always be room for some but, it’s not easy to implement if it came down to it the lower skill the character that takes to use or master the less counterplay that character should have available and for higher skilled ceiling characters the more counterplay options should be available. Obviously you wouldn’t want the high skill characters too strong but the opposite is absolutely worse. There’s no reason low skill characters should ever be meta or have insane value. They’re there to learn the fundamentals and that’s it. If blizzard was good at designing characters or balancing they would make the no skill characters easy to learn characters but hard to master. TLDR soft counters good hard counters bad
genji outrange and can play around literally every single one of those characters. he kills moira 1v1 cause shes a slow damage over time and hes a burst character, his dash outranges every single one of those beams so the only time you should die is if you dashed badly into your counters range and its on cooldown. those ARE soft counters, the only thing is you actually need to be skilled to beat them. but I thought thats why you chose to play a hard character? there's a reason most top 500 dps got there playing genji, cause he can play around his counters, it just actually takes skill to do so. I hate people like this who play a hard character like genji and blame that for the reason they are underperforming. People outplay those counters all the time on genji, if you can't do it that means you aren't good enoguh to play him. If you want to play him anyway don't cry cause you lost to someone playing a simpler character, you chose to handicap yourself and they didn't. you shouldn't be rewarded for just clicking on a hard characters face when you are bad at them, you should actually have to know how to play the character to perform well on them. crazy thought I know.
had me at "high rank players are loudmouths". I'm saying, the unjustified ego of a quirked up plat player is already unbearable. The higher rank you get, it seems the more people speak in absolutes as if they know it all. When in reality if they did know it all they'd be able to convince people better. The ability to teach is directly tied to the how well you understand something on a fundamental level. It makes it easier for you to relate one topic to another to explain it easier.
If you make every character objectively more skillful it is still shitter on shitter action. Bad players make bad plays and already have no idea what is going on, and if you disagree with this point you are just in denial and arguing in bad faith. Top tier players already absolutely shit on low tier players, making characters more skillful wont change anything but high rank dynamics. The main problem is when you finally improve there are characters that literally "just stand there" and just prevent you and your team from making plays, ie mauga, hog, cas nade, widow, ashe, ana cooldowns, wife leavers existence, all of mercy's kit, brig, kiri cleanse, bap lamp, all of orisas abilities, and discord orb. What is in common with most of these characters run and hide while healing or just prevent you from doing what your character does. Why is zen a bunker? Why do we have 2 supports who literally just hide and heal/damage boost in a fps game (3 if you include brig?) Why are like half the tank roster just moving walls that when they hit you, you just die? I understand supports are there to help the team just why do all of them only use their cooldowns almost to help themselves? Simple because ow is moving away from being a team game as rapidly as possible. Imagine if lamp and cleanse didnt affect the casters they would be actual support abilities instead of a i no die button. Kiri already has tp and bap has a full heal on press, why do they also get to make themselves immortal on top of doing good damage and already having get out of jail free cards.
What if Mauga were to put his guns in front of him when crouching. You would have a shield of sorts while not moving of course. No dmg mitigation but cc block. Can't hack, sleep, be cancelled by spear but could be pushed around and your sides and behind is open.
I like what people are saying about Kiriko in chat that the easier parts on her kit enable her more skillful playstyle. Without suzu and swift step she can’t really make plays. I would add that the amount of things that she can do makes her harder in a sense because there’s more things that the player has to decide (where to position in a way that maximizes value, when to heal, when to damage, when to suzu, etc.) These things require game sense. I can still see why people would want her nerfed because of how prolific in high level play she is. My idea would be to nerf the ultimate somehow, because that’s the main thing top players pick her for. Doing so wouldn’t hurt low ranks as badly imo because people can’t hit shots and most teammates don’t seem to use it - or they try and get rolled anyway 🤷♂️
I know it’s not your intention but honestly I’m just driven further and further into 6v6 camp. I miss tanking with my duo and for me any argument raised that wasn’t about the tank matchup just felt like minor complaints by comparison. Like I wish tank had it so good that we only had a skill shot to complain about
To me counter play is booping their double shield tanks off of high ground on first point Anubis. Maybe going junk hanzo to burst through that annoying bastion bunker comp. Counter play is not choosing orisa and negating everything their rein can do off of innate value.
27:15 a lot of people mentioning that counterplay should be a skill check; im heavily inclined to disagree. It can be, sure, but it doesnt have to be, nor does it make it good. For good counterplay, you have to ask; What should the limits of this character be, and how far should they be able to extend beyond that? So many chars in hero based videogames that have high skill floor, incredible skill ceiling, and counterplay for seemingly everything.. And they just get to ignore fundamentals to the wayside and live in their own little world.
tank is the only role where every character's kit SHOULD be complicated and intricate (=/= hard to play) so the devs have more tools to balance them around because it is also the least defined role in the game and making character hard to kill is just not enough. (I hate roadhog)
one interesting idea for rank, is to incentive playing less noob heroes. make it ranking up completely related to hero and how you're winrate compares to the avg player on that hero in that rank. like say you pick moira in bronze or silver, and say the average winrate for moira in that rank is 65-70% or something, if you get even 55-60% winrate, you either dont level up, or you level up extremely slow. relative to the hero selected. compare that to somebody willing to try ana in bronze/silver. maybe her winrate is awful as she requires so much skill and nuance, maybe its 40%, the ana able to win 40% of the time in bronze/silver is arguably a better player and understands fundamentals better, but more so- it would incentive people to try out harder heroes, as youre 45% on ana would end up ranking you up faster than a 65% on moira. and apply the same logic to other heroes. I also think it could be cool that at the start at each game every team bans a hero or two from the enemy comp that theyre not allowed to pick.
hopefully the devs watch this and realize 5v5 justy nullifys all of this counterplay ability. 6v6 2-2-2 is the way to play ow; how we get there via matchmaking and group assembly is another question. new players defending 5v5 and season 9 buffs have the worst informed opinion on the best way forward.
Fatal flaw is the match maker. Qp and comp Skill levels/rank/mma should be super narrow . Id rather wait 30-60min for a gg. Instead of playing 20-30 matches of crap and have 1 or 2 ggs
Blizz is trying to balance heroes across qp, ranked through bronze to GM. Change attributes according to brackets. Example: Brig is nerfed to ground over the years so it's fair on high ranks tho unplayable at lower ranks. Pharah is a non issue to counter on high ranks but lower ranks can't shoot shit so it looks like Pharah is op.
I fully admit that I haven't watched the video yet, but the title makes me think of what, at least I think, is the most fundamental flaw with overwatch: That the characters in the game are designed to make you attached to them just like ones in a movie or book, but that they also have pretty singular focuses on their "job". Someone who is a widowmaker player for example will most likely not just like her gameplay, but her writing and style. You get attached to the hero fantasy along with those too, you aren't just getting attached to the characters, you become the character. Trouble is that heroes in overwatch are also completely disposable when the rubber hits the road, widowmaker in this case effectively being a walking sniper rifle. You're also supposed to switch between them like you would a gun in another shooter like CS, like they're a tool to be used, complete with singular and pragmatic functions, but they're not designed to just be tools; they're designed for you to be fans of them as characters. That suuuuuucks and is a complete contradiction! It's no wonder everyone can feel so frustrated with this game all the time; it's one thing to be cc'd but now you're playing and watching your favourite character be hindered and killed in the most anticlimactic way possible about 10-11 times a match, every match. Counterswapping is inherent to the game and is a feature, not a bug, but it never ever feels that way.
If you master enough a character you shouldnt need to swap, it is even easier if you swap? Yes, but if you master the character enough there isnt need. Take a look at zebra for example. You cant expect to have 5 hours with widow and be completely unstoppable And about your example is a little bit stupid, if you are playing widow you arent going to get hindered (she is a sniper, what are you doing playing close range to a cass??) and if you do, it isnt that much of a problem, try to scope him and kill him. The most annoying moment could be maybe if they go sombra, but again with aim and knowledge you can kill her.
@@JINXED_00 You can master a character enough to not have to swap, sure, but lots of people only use one gun in videogames along with a myriad of other self-imposed rules. The contradiction I talk about in the game is still there even in that case, even if you decide not to play it in a certain way. I also don't know where you're getting the idea that I think someone should be unstoppable with 5 hours on widow, or any character.
@@cleric7017 If you go OTP you agree to those self-imposed rules, just like in any other game or do you think snipers in real life dont need to be careful with getting close range to someone? Ofc they do, the same happens if you play widow or if you go and play only knife in call of duty, you cant go long-mid range you need to approach the enemy in a specifif way. Idk, maybe by the fact that you are getting ccd being a widow makes me think that. If you know how to play widow you arent going to get ccd that much
@@JINXED_00 It's fine if you agree to those rules, but you're still going to be experiencing the contradiction I was talking about. And I think you agree with me actually, the fact that you think of widow in the same way as going knife only in cod is my exact point and the crux of the issue, that she, as well as every character, is designed for you to be attached to but also something you're supposed to think of as just a gun that is instantly swappable. Those ideas go against each other Also, I don't play widow. It was just an example, you can replace her with any hero in my point
@@cleric7017 And what happens if you experience those contradictions? Shall we remove ccs? shall we remove all abilities from the game so the widow isnt countered anymore? In a game with abilities, always an abitility will counter the other one. You play X that gets countered by Y ability. This happened also in OW1 and you are all acting like it only happens in OW2 (It was even worse LOL) Widowmaker for example in OW1 could be dived by TWO tanks (supposing that the dps doesnt actually dive her) It was even harder to be an otp
Spoiler alert; team 4 will never fix the game and it will eventually fade into obscurity if they don’t keep pumping out flashy cosmetic collaborations like Cowboy Bebop They’ve made their bed already; they will continue to waste development resources on “reworks” that don’t actually address the issues of the hero in 5v5 hog and ball don’t play differently than before, and have all the same counters and counter play…you will always need to swap with a proficient enough Ana or Sombra respectively on the other team. There is no fixing that intrinsic dynamic when having one tank since the game is fundamentally about swapping for a situational advantage (that’s why, outside of periods with wild imbalances like goats or double shield or even individual comps being weak like Lucios win rate will be worse when dive is weak or zen with poke) win rates generally stay within a percentage or two of 50% for most heroes historically in overwatch. Edit: there’s several ways you can interpret that, in my opinion it shows that situational play is more common than “one tricking” as you’d see more drastic swings based of balance, rather than what I believe we’re seeing is players switching; with the coin toss that is online multiplayer matchmaking being our roughly 50% (if each team is roughly the same skill, should be roughly 50-50) People get too caught up in the byte shedding, overly autistic, underly holistic approach of whining about individual heroes, when most individual interactions don’t matter unless in specific contexts. Overwatch is closer to a traditional sports like Basketball; where adjustments need to be made extremely fast, you need to know the full context of what all the heroes are doing and capable of doing (ability cd tracking) *in that moment* to make the right decision. Counter picking and counter play *is* the game. Fuck your “hero fantasy” this is a team sport (don’t you dare hit me with the Kobe Bryant “There’s no I in team, but there is a M-E in that mothafucka”
As a newb (and maybe a noob), i'm thankful for newb heroes. There are so many aspects of the game you have to know of when you are new. People that sunk hundreds of hours into the game might not even realize how hard it is to pic the game up. There are so many skills to learn even on "no skills heroes". Learning the maps for pathing and positioning (i've run into so many walls while retreating), learning the cool downs of your heroes, your teammates heroes and the enemy heroes as well as keeping taps on ultimate charges (lost so many fights to rein ults cause we clumped and no one knew rein ult was up) and lastly the more mechanical skill where you actually have to hit things. I can say playing the more well liked Damge heros is a horrible experience for me. I don't do a lot of Damage, nor do i get eleminations and I also die fast. Newb heros let me ignore at least one of these aspects so that i can concentrate on the others and actually get better at them without having the feeling my team is loosing because of me. (Which still happens often enough) I actually hope they make more Solo course hero masteries in the future, to learn the tricks a hero has without having to stumble across them or feeling forced to watch TH-cam videos on them (where often enough its hard to find a good one). My personal verdict on overwatch (after overall 200 games played) is that it is an incredibly new player unfriendly game, though the devs seem to be trying to change.
Also playing against heroes like bastion, widow ... helps you learn quite a few things (mostly not staying in the open but also flanking ..). So i disagree that this is an issue as fatal as you make it, especially since most of these heroes are rarely seen in top500/competitive games.
Thank you for your comment. I also agree that OW isn't as noob friendly as all these people claim. All of these arguments are coming from very enfranchised players who have been playing for long amounts of time and don't remember/consider what its like to be a new player. How are new players supposed to learn the game if they always get trounced upon by more experienced players by default with no "easy value" to be had at all? It feels to me like its all Mid-to-High skilled players getting salty that they sometimes lose to lower-skilled players/characters. I absolutely agree that low-floor characters should have careful limits and not be able to dominate high-ranks of course. When I was new to the game, I started playing because my friends invited me. I started off with newb heroes who could get "free value" as even though I sucked at the game... I didn't want to make the game unplayable for my team-mates. Having noob-heroes to play actually let me play with my friends long enough to learn the game and eventually play harder heroes until hundreds of hours later I can play almost any hero in the game at at least a passable level. If noob heroes did not exist, I would have 100% quit the game early on as not only would I be not having fun, but I would be dragging down the experience of my friends and impacting their fun as well. I also agree with you that the hardest role to learn in the game is actually DPS. Most of the complaints about noob heroes and "free value" are directed at support heroes or overtuned tanks like Orisa or Mauga. DPS is the only role that needs to actively apply pressure and use abilities offensively (and take more risk) to push their team to victory. The more high-skill you make a game, the smaller the audience for that game gets (look at Smash Bros versus classic street-fighter style fighting games).
I agree with almost everything except the top 1% opinions don’t matter when they have the biggest voice they matter when your favorite streamer stops streaming ow cuz it’s so bad or is constant complaining makes you not want to play
Bastion and Orisa get so much free value that they can be used as bot enemies is PvE with little to no changes. OW programmers never did well with bot AI, so the fact these characters can be a threat points to low value floors.
I truly think they need to stop adding new heroes. apart from the hero imbalance between dps and the other roles, a new hero every other season only hurts blizzards chances of ever achieving a real state of balance. I think the game can be kept fresh enough with maps and especially reworks.
I should always be at fault when I die, and that mustn't be not hitting the "H" button in spawn. If i feel like my options are ruled out and that's not them being beyond my skill but beyond my hero' then it is the game failing. Maybe ammunition types come and Mauga incendiary deals less dmg to armor and can't burn but to get through it you use the normal gun, then Mauga literally has echo beam baked into his kit that applies towards armor. Just a suggestion but that would mean with armor I'm able to take space without getting mowed down. My shield will get destroyed as easy as it did and that is some nuance to the game. Mauga can have tighter spread and better dmg on incendiary too. With this, it wouldn't effect huge-hitboxed, armored chars. Against Reaper, Bastion, Mauga; Winton will struggle but the "chaingun ammo" could just have less "pierce" as well as "shotgun shells". A low winton will die surely but not a full hp winton. Not unkillable but there is conditions to be met like echo. Bastion would be better off staying as recon against high hp monke but you would benefit from switching halfway through. Bastion would use turret against non shield targets like hog who has their own counter-play in the form of damage negation. JQ is harder to hit, so on and so forth. Widow will be better against armor but to burn through that she will forgo the one shot potential. Add charge time and i hope that is enough to make the decision matter actually.
I think starting these discussions (yes, each and every time) by saying "overwatch 2 is an amazing game" before you go on to criticizing it makes all the difference!
Maybe a hot take, but I feel like Mauga/Hog *SHOULD* be hard countered by nade/sleep/discord. You’re trading traditional tanking abilities for raw damage.
Is junkrat really a noob stomper like bastion, because when I started playing OW I was bad a rat and it took me a few months to see how other players played him and get good at him.
This. Junkrat hasnt actually had a good "free" map since they took out 2cp. His ability to hard lockout doorways and potentially teamwipe without penalty if he fails with his ult were huge. His only other value was comparably good dps into unmissable targets and melee range near instakill zone of influence. Those last 2 are also less relevant away from 2cp and the last was nerfed into nonexistence. Hes been so bad since the health buffs
noob stomp heroes are also how otps are usually created. their skills dont transfer other to other heroes and they lose on other heroes, so they keep playing their one trick.
My hot take is that Moira is fine and that SOME "noob heroes" are good for the game because you need easy/simple to play heroes to onboard new players to the game. These heroes however should NOT be overtuned and should absolutely fall off in higher ranks. I think its absolutely acceptable to have some heroes dominate lower ranks but high-skill ceiling heroes dominate high ranks. If you are a one-trick of any kind then you should not be able to thrive in high ranks no matter what, you should have to learn to play the game and counter other heroes. I like Moira a lot and I think it's actually a sign of good design that she can't get you to higher ranks. She's a fun character to play and having the escape tool of fade is actually a great tool to teach new players about picking fights/engaging/retreating etc. I think the game would ACTIVELY be worse without her. Come at me Moira haters. One "noob" hero that I hate however is Mercy. Mercy either makes the game insufferable for the opponent's team (if they're good) and miserable for your own team (if they're bad). She also makes really bad players think that they're good players when they're absolutely not, so she's not a good "noob hero" for the purposes of teaching people the game and getting them to improve. The game should have a good mix of low-floor/low-ceiling heroes and high floor/high ceiling heroes. If there were no noob heroes OW2 would have half of the playerbase it currently has.
playing against tanks like sigma and orisa is just not fun and its not fun to play as them ether, you are a moving wall that has a small window of weakness it does not feel great to spam everything at a tank and its not fun to just sit there ether waiting to explode as orisa and sig and id like to mention that counter play and counter swapping are different the reason it feels good to kill a genji as ana is because you have to be good at hitting shots and wait for the right moment but the reason i say its not fun to kill a orisa is because it feels like a marathon and you only win because she ran out of cooldowns getting hit by everything, not that you hit a crazy sleep or nad basically it kind of feels one dimensional you sit there and wait. than that you are in danger and you better make the right move and make it fast i could go more into it but i don't want to take all your time
Some ideas for noob character changes. Bastion - when in turret form, the turret itself can be crit or double crit. Bastion is a high value high risk character. A high value character should not be tanky but easily killed if they position wrong. Another idea would be that his bullets are more damage to shields but not so much damage to flesh/armor. Makes him more of the shield break character rather than the tank buster. Moira - succ - this ability should be on a timer or a have a charge up. It can still easily lock on, but she can pull say, 50 damage when it lands, recharges her meter, and has to wait 3 seconds to use again, forcing her to heal her team in between rather than just backline dps. She can still have her damage orb though and this should still keep her identity as a needing to do some dps to recharge her healing. Fade - as this is the same science as reapers fade, she should be visible when it happens, just not damagable like reaper. Making her fully invisible enables her to juke out characters and go back to dpsing in the backline. Mauga im not too sure on. Think they need to just redo the entire character honestly. Perhaps changing his guns to flamethrowers? Something to force his range low, but his impact higher on consistent hits? Anyone thoughts or anyone think these might work?
No clue why it's bastion and junkrat as the noob stompers, as a silver 2 bap who accidentally joined an open queue ranked game. Roadhog absolutely shreds if you have even the minimum amount of skill.
The fatal flaw with the current dynamics of the game are the supports being way too effective at healing, denial abilities, or both. Whether you change the format to 6v6, 5v5 open, or keep it the same, the current support structure is super unhealthy for the game's balancing and design.
I think a lot of the story of Overwatch's balance has been overreactions in response to previous overreactions. Character A or strategy X is way too powerful? Here comes character B, who absolutely nukes that issue from orbit. Oh, but by doing that we fucked up this other thing, whoops let's swerve to fix that, then swerve to fix the next thing that broke. Barring a break period on changes and updates to really hammer out where everything stands - or basically the entire roster simultaneously getting rebuilt from basic principles, I'm not sure it's possible to fix this situation.
Watchin The Vid rn , will update my thoughts by the end. My entry into this is 'Marvel Rivals' is out and people are loving it does alot of things that are a breath of fresh air to the Hero Shooter Genre.
I’ve really been looking at the game and I honestly think that 6v6 is the answer . The extra tank body just does so much for the current issues, it almost doesn’t matter what the 2nd tank does as long as it has the ability to threaten some space to force either an ability or take an angle . The pain points of characters like Kiriko would not be such an issue . Nor life weaver nor bap lamp . Even in the event that you get a character like a hog otp . As long as people are looking at him and he’s threatening space you can make it work . That’s the beauty of 6v6 . So much can work even if it’s not optimal . Which makes the game feel far more expressive than it is now in 5v5.
stay tuned for part 2!
I have a wild though, in my opinion it's not tank,not support, it's always sustainability problem in this game. Other 5v5 multi game are very careful about healing,they almost never give support direct heal ,so maybe 2 Tank,2Dps 1sup and change passive or health pack mechanic. It's way easier punishable.
I mean….6v6 is already a possibility. All blizzard has to do is release an “Overwatch classic” game mode with 6v6. Start by using the open queue versions of tanks and balance from there. I think all that needs to happen is enough people need to complain/ask for it. Similar to what happened with WoW classic.
Delete the tank role and add more sup and dps. That way you'll fix q-times and the tank experience.
The problem with 5v5 is that Alot of the tanks in overwatch are not designed to be played by their own in overwatch there is 2 dps,2support and suppose to be 2 tanks if there is not 2 tanks then that mean one tank get focused down in 2 seconds and makes it not fun for the sole tank player. overwatch needs to go back to 6v6 or the game is as good as dead and once marvel rivals comes out with 6v6 its game over for overwatch.
@@vergilsgamingchair8772 ah yes and make the game lose its identity.
31:56 “even some ow2 heroes are flawed” proceeds to name every single ow2 hero besides two
Automatic value is not fun for anyone, not even the person using it. Blizzard needs to realize this and stop babying their playerbase. This is one of the reasons I don't appreciate balance by stat buffs. It's essentially just raising the level of automatic value a character has.
Yes, the devs don't get it. I think it's a hard balance because they want to push new content always; but part of me wishes the game was super barebones and allowed for skill expression to provide all the value.
Precisely why their win rate balance philosophy is dumb as hell.
Yeah, it's not really "fun" looking at the ground and wasting an entire DVa bomb with suzu, I didn't do anything, I feel like I not only cheated my victory for no risks but that I also cheated that Dva from their moment to shine with an ultimate
@@geffernof course they get it. You really think they don’t get it? There are millions and millions of dollars tied up in this game. They are making decisions based on what will make them the most money. If making it easy for bad players to get value gets those players to buy more skins, Blizzard will do it.
They're babying their player base on every front that's why the game feels like trash in my opinion. The wave respawns, the delayed spawns so you're with your team, bigger projectiles, bigger health pools. It all adds up.
If Moira grasp does 60 dps, it takes 4 seconds to kill 250hp targets. Asking a bronze player to do more damage than she’s self healing in that amount of time is crazy. She’s almost impossible to 1v1 in low ranks
I hate Moira so much 💀if the devs really want to keep her "newbie hero" status they need to nerf her overall kit. Fade CD from 6 to 8 sec, right click damage from 60 to 55, left click from 70 to 60 healing per sec, lifesteal from 20/s to 10/s. Or make it so that lifesteal is interrupted in some ways when she takes damage. I'm okay with easy heroes that can introduce new players to the game, but that b*tch shouldn't be remotely as effective as Ana when she requires no mechanical skill and a very small amount of brain cells.
"just hit all your shots without missing, dumbass"
There's a reason why I'm still bronze, that doesn't mean I should be destroyed because one dude decided to pick a hero that doesn't even need to put his crosshair over me to damage me
So the bronze player is just standing out in the open tanking moira right click? How about asking a bronze player to use cover so they dont take full 60 dps?
@@ironman1458 say that to me while on the middle of my whole team on a big TF and the Moira dives in through our tank just to kill me while full life lol, that bitch thought she was echo or some shit
@@ironman1458 then again, moira can just flank behind the cover with her dash and just need to look in the general direction, hold right click and she kills
I love that you keep championing that low level players don't need cheap value heroes to engage with the game. I have hated how thats always some excuse for boring character design.
"Cheap" or "low skill" heroes aren't just for low ranked players. They are also for players with disabilities to be able to pick up and enjoy the game.
Not everything is about skill.
@@Damocles450 Isn't that the point of matchmaking? To pair people up of similar skill? How do you match people of similar skill if one player gets easier value from a character? What happens when they can't exploit that character? There are real life examples here. We have the paralympics which is really cool and affords so much opportunity to people with handicaps. It pairs people of similar ability and handicaps and gives them an equal and fair standing to compete. They don't just throw people with handicaps in races and say you get 100m head start. Isn't this what matchmaking is supposed to do? Even the field so that everyone has the opportunity to have fun?
The only reason this is ever really a problem is because people smurf and pub stomp, but in reality thats just a small amount of games.
@@Whokilledkenny9 I love how I said not everything is about skill, and you immediately make the conversation about skill lmao.
@@Damocles450 Okay then expand upon your point instead of just acting like a smart ass. Everything is not about skill! Okay so then whats your point? Your point is its about people with disabilities having fun. Why can't they have fun on Genji? Even if you play Genji bad, its a fun character. You swing a sword around and look like a cool ninja. So why won't they have fun? Because they might not win? I have lost tons of games trying to learn new characters. Who cares? I had a blast.
Maybe its that they want to play with friends. Good news. You can do that on quickplay with a massive variety of skill levels.
If its not about skill or winning, then why can't they just play tracer? Its the frustration of losing and feeling like they aren't impacting the game that stops them. How do you fix that? Matchmaking.
@@Whokilledkenny9That point only really works if the matchmaking was a solid effective system but we all know ow matchmaking can be god awful more often than not
The 'noob' heroes have always been a problem and still are. I recently sweated my ass off as tank to carry an incredibly difficult game. I reviewed it after - almost all of the players involved - our dps, their supports - were playing great and trying their hardest to win. Then I watched our Mercy - she did literally nothing except damage boost our mccree and attempt 3 rezzes (2 of which failed and led to her death, due to bad timing) yet she was the same rank as the rest of us. The gap in game awareness and positioning was night and day.
Winston main here. I get pretty annoyed when I have to play against counter comps. The reason is that almost every winston hard counter is a noob hero. The only exception might be brig, but even she’s close. When I go up against hog reaper bastion (fairly common occurrence) I know for sure that none of those players are going to outskill me, but they have a very good chance of winning the game, because their heroes take so much space for free that I’m totally helpless. I hate these noob hero tank buster characters so much. They literally ruin the game for me. And people are constantly playing them in ranked.
ive been playing this game for a couple weeks now and sit around gold as a dps (i feel i grew a lot from bronze where i initially placed) by watching vids and figuring out stuff like timing, positioning, space, and fixing up my mouse DPI and stuff and doing the practice range and deathmatch between my matches. i play soldier. when i lose games i feel like i'm learning and i'm able to keep a positive mental for the next game. i still feel like there's a TON i can improve on and i know i make a bunch of mistakes in my matches that i'm trying to work on.
but it feels like a lot of the ppl playing this game get very very very frustrated playing the game. some ppl even lament that they've lost like 13 games in a row or something when they lose their match. there's tons of hero swapping which feels to me like something that results from a paper mental rather than from being skilled with multiple heroes. there's a lot of instant flaming over really small setbacks and flaming teammates and offering bad advice to teammates as a desperate attempt to win, etc. the general vibe i'm getting from a lot of the low ranked playerbase is honestly just exhaustion more than anything.
God I rarely play this game now, but man I love deep discussions about it. The game deserves this level of thought, and deserves to become better, because it does so many things right it's always so close to perfection. Very keen to watch this through.
lol close to perfection
@@CapitalSans yeah idk what he's on about, he might think it's still 2017 lol
Well yeah it is close because the heroes themselves have always been designed super well, while the game suffers from _fundamental_ flaws. There's a big difference between a game that's half-baked vs a polished game with particular issues that even the community struggles to identify, articulate and come to a consensus about after 8 years. Hence, close to perfection.
@@thedofflin I mean yeah that's fair but I'd say the game is anything but close to perfection ever since the engine got a massive downgrade lol
@@bambampewpew32 What engine downgrade?
The real fatal flaw here is spilos hair
LOL
Junkie looking ahh
Bro thinks he Lars from tekken
@@SlowStroking💀 that got me good
For real…this man must be allergic to barbers.
50 min of thoughtfull overwatch discussion? U made my day
I would play this game regularly again, but the amount of alcohol i would need would literally kill me.
You could try Deep Rock Galactic - just lower the Hazard Level according to how inebriated you are *hic*.
@@val26874 nah gotta be a true dwarf and raise the haz level the more drunk you are
that's honestly the only way I can enjoy playing overwatch right now. on weekends with booze.
@josepha377 try asgoldian ale, you can get it at the rising sun pub during and after the dwarf rfd subquest xD.
And yes I have been playing runescape again because I simply cannot play ow at the moment because I'm done getting countered entire game and never able to play a hero I would like to play or enjoy playing for more than 2 minutes at most. And I play every single tank. I enjoy allot of them, they are get countered so fast though.
The single biggest thing I hate about the noob characters is knowing if I pick them my team has a better chance of winning. It is also to easy for players to deny value by pressing H in spawn and going something braindead.
I love Ana but the amount of effort and practise I need to put in to counter braindead sombra and Moira 1v1s is insane. It feels really unfair that certain heros get a free 1v1 buff against me. Like yes it's a mechanical skill thing, but gameplay sense doesn't help outside of trying to avoid the 1v1 happening in the first place by using that sense.
@@Raecast Disparity of mechanical skill is a super buzz killer for me too. I am pretty good at spy checking Sombras on Ana, and dealing with cheese characters, and it feels good overcoming their advantage, but would rather it not be a thing in the first place.
I dont really think that all the characters need to have a low skill floor but it would be nice all characters had a high skill ceiling so that they are competitive in higher ranks
We need more like Lucio Winston and mercy have a very basic skill set but you can optimize and learn the characters abilities and improve at using those abilities
@@crossdaboss8914I wouldnt include mercy in that.
@abudgie6909 how you seen the movement of a high level mercy not saying she's the most mechanically hard hero but you put 2 mercy against each other to see who can use their movement to survive better the high level one wins easy
Terrible hero design lead to no one wanting to play tank in ow1 so we got 5v5. Good hero design wont fix 5v5, it will fix 6v6. No one wants to play a role that has to deal with bs abilities/heroes, when Dps and tanks were power crept by supports no one wanted to play those roles. It's not "just a tank issue" when other roles can be affected by bad hero design (and in 5v5's case bad game design).
(WARNING: Plat opinion) If I were to make a tier list of OW2 based on their hero design It would probably look something like this.
S: Junker Queen
A: Sojourn, Kiriko, Venture
B: Rammatra, Illari
C: Mauga, Lifeweaver
- JQ is great. I love playing as her and I'm never mad when I lose to her
- Kiriko, Sojourn and Venture just need a few small tweaks and they'll be fine.
- Ram and Illari are fun but feel a bit limited in what they can do.
- Mauga and Lifeweaver are tragedies of hero design.
This discussion was one of the best I have ever had the pleasure to see and participate in a while. One of my objectives in this community as a junkrat player is being vocal about our character, both the good and the bad. We are the first ones that want our character to thrive in OW2, and this stream was the best discussion eviroment I have seen in a long time. I think Spilo is making such a good work for being vocal and discussing this kind of topics, and he earns my abosulute respects for it.
I’ve also been in Bronze for a long time before climbing out and I’ve hated characters like moira while being there. It ruins the experience for so many players, just to give the handful of those who decide to pick her up an easier time.
The dynamics presented at the beginning explain what we have seen in TF2 for years. A LOT of new players start playing with higher skill floor mercenaries like Spy and Engie just because they seem fun and interesting, and proceed to be ANNIHILATED by the easier to access ones like Pyro and Soldier. Of course, all mercenaries in tf2 have extreme skill ceilings but at a noob level this is what happens
tf2 also solves this by requiring team compositions to have a solid combo of power classes (heavy,demo,soldier) and support/utility classes (pyro,spy,sniper,scout), as well as the true "healers" (medic, and engie due to the importance of dispensers for fuelling ammo economy/taking stress off of meds)
within each category there is an easiest role. soldier, pyro, medic are the core classes of tf2, and pyro and soldier have a variety of counters to eachother's kits, but your level of access to those counters are ENTIRELY dependant on skill expression, meaning a good soldier will ALWAYS kill a bad pyro, so counter swapping isnt just an instant success. there is very LOW minimum value add in tf2.
For a noob, there will always be characters that are harder to play than others. I cannot think of a game that doesn't do this. The difference is that there is not really a class that you can play as a noob to be able to keep up with others as the general skill rises. Much like Winston, pyro has a very basic set of tools, but there is a lot you can do with it (reflecting, flare jumping, game knowledge for spy checking), and like with Winston, being a noob pyro will get you stomped against better players. Meanwhile, throw a bronze Moira into a gold lobby and they'll be able to hold their own based on the free value and skill floor.
Though pyro has insane skill ceiling (diferent from moira) It also has a lot of free value. New players just hold w+m1 and get kills because aim is basically not required and afterburn is a busted mechanic.
@@nicholaspisetta3842 Yes. Precisely. Pyro is the lowest skill floor class in the game, but anyone who REALLY knows what they're doing will be able to put down a new player. The minimum value add is not so egregious that player expression and skill are squashed.
Edit: Also, afterburn was nerfed. It used to be much, much more oppressive. It now "builds up" while exposing someone to direct flame, and then counts down when you stop hitting them with flame hitboxes.
Pyro can easily make a ton of space, but outside of their immediate surroundings, they have little influence on what the other team can accomplish. A new player on pyro can't clear highgrounds, can't reflect to get picks on medics, doesn't know how to reflect turret rockets, etc etc, the list goes on.
Point is, Valve took nine something years to make TF2 for a reason. Class based team shooters are incredibly difficult to make fun for everyone who might play them.
@@BlvdBroken I think even Winston has an incredibly high minimum value add, but the access for it is slightly higher than moira.
Not only do I 100% agree that people that only play noob heroes dont learn important fundamentals of the game, im pretty sure these people THINK they are learning and playing well because it is so easy to get meaningless stats on those characters
That's true, when I first started playing support I picked Moira because a friend said I would like her, and I did liked her, I kept a decent healing, but as the time went on I started feeling like I wasn't doing anything, same thing with orisa, probably my first tank after Reinhardt, I felt like a was performing well but as my skill increased they started to feel boring (orisa and Moira). So now that I'm more skilled and feel like playing more complicated characters like Ana, Ramattra, genji and Tracer I just feel like shit when someone that has barely any situational awareness sneaks up on a me at the worst possible time, holds m1 on me and I'm completely "outskilled" by the character, not the player, what's the point of using my dash as genji to get to good cover when not only moira will still reach me with her 20m grasp, she can dash even farther away? Yes, I expect playing a hard character to be hard, what the game shouldn't expect is for me to keep trying when I can so easily be shutdown by a character, not a player, unless I have a HUGE mechanical skill to hit all my shots in her head, I won't be able to survive that encounter alone, so I, as a player, need a higher than average skill level in order to beat a character that is being controlled by a player in a lower skill level to mine
For me the big frustrating part is that sometimes Tanks either feel like they are a non factor OR are Raid bosses depending on *your* Teammates.
It feels so frustrating sometimes
That's most likely due to the fact that they have a team who works with them or have a team that don't while getting countered.
Something sleep dart, winston and rein shield have in common is that they have a cast time - meaning you have to be proactive because the enemy could hit you before you can cast it, or save it for the perfect moment when you know the enemy is out of options to counter it. That’s what makes Ana vs winston so interesting and fun as a matchup, that’s what makes rein skilful. Genji’s deflect has an instant cast, but it has weaknesses and a decently long cd where he has to play around it. Meanwhile moira fade is instant and fast and she has heal orb to sustain herself until she has it again, meaning she can still be active in the fight. Kiri tp has a short cast time, but tbh it’s both frustrating to die as a kiri while casting it but also frustrating to play against it because of how small that punish window is still. It feels like it should be instant, but despite it not being instant it still feels pointless to try to counterplay it in anyway with a stun or damage.
I think the main issue isn't moira's fade. Yeah it's annoying, but if she has that strong of a get out of jail free card, her duel power (ie damage on a LOCK ON auto attack) should be VERY low. Imo her auto attack should be the lowest damage out of the entire support cast.
I think you say the reasons why new people dont stay in this game, they peack random charceters, who they like something from him, and never feel rewarded
4:49 spinning winton made me coughing as hell
Thank you for being like the single person in the entire creator space actually criticizing the design principles. OW2 isn't bad to play on accident or because of some bad decisions.
Jake and Sam have my favorite debates around tank. I love the idea of 6v6, but double shield showed us the worst stuff and it's obvious the map was way more limited before cuz a DVa would catch the flanking DPS. But tank obviously isn't fun and kinda ruined with the current situation unless you like playing 4+ tanks. As a secondary role it's become a never role
Brig, Baptist was the true issue during double shield because they wouldn't die not the double shield it's self
@@Novaguy60yes thank you I hate when people are anti 6v6 and point to double shield it’s so corny man
Double shield was a balance issue not a format issue. The orisa rework would’ve 100% been enough on its own to fix that meta.
Why people keep saying double shield, it was refuted very long time ago, they could just rework orisa then, and boom no double shield. And maybe nerf sigma. that's all, and people did say it against double shield argument, but 5v5 drones keep forgetting that and keep dangling "double shield" like keys
I think some heroes naturally get more promise to them when they're one or two tricked. Thinking wrecking ball, genji, Lucio, but instead our most common one trick in the game is either mercy or Moira. That gets me very angy when I play the game into 4 strangers
noob friendly characters in my book: they skip fundamentals of the game like positioning with moira or mechanics
If you think that you don't need good positioning as Moira, then you must not have ever played her
@@Damocles450 you just dont get punsished to the same extent, you can make more positioning mistakes and bypass with self healing and fade
@@Kiba114 But that's not an inherent part of Moira's kit. You don't magically go unpunished by just by existing as Moira. you don't get punished because you made a smart play and set yourself up for maximum success.
If anything, Moira is MORE punishable because if you make a mistake, then you have nothing. If what you said were true, then Moiras would never be killable, but you see it all the time when Moira's make bad plays and get punished for it.
@@Damocles450So the 6 second ability that gives her insane survivability isn't an inherent part of her kit design?
@@Damocles450 no because on my first mistake with lets say ana, i already have to deal with it. on moira i dont have to deal with it and my enemies have a small window where i dont have fade and they can punish me, but resources already went into me using dash initially usually
it’s not even funny how much I hate playing with a mercy on my team this season
lol me too mercy on team = instantly start throwing. hopefully they start flaming so you can farm reports on them too. the absolute state of ow2
@@ironman1458pls dont throw games because of hero picks. Ur better than this
I feel like "noob" heroes in general aren't great for the game because part of this game is growth in understanding and piloting the character, to learn and improve upon using the character, and by having these characters be "viable" just creates characters that continue to be much stronger as the player goes on to learn and play more, for a more "technical" hero, one mistake could mean dying at best and losing the game at worse, but when there's a character that is tuned to still be somewhat competitive with that more technical character, that easier character is not nearly as punished let alone being very hard to make a critical mistake at all. It also very heavily discourages using those more technical characters especially at a lower level
As they add more heros I think they have to shift from the hero fantasy to a risk reward model. Ricky picks like Tracer and genji should be stronger than the soldiers or torbs. But the benefits of those heros are that they're reliable and consistent. This problem is even worse with Mercy and Moira. Heros who should never be 'meta'. But they're reliable over the Zenyatta or Ana picks. We are soon to have so many heros, and heros like Mauga shouldn't exist, a brainless hero with insane output who dominates like 80% of the tank roster.
Overwatch has some of the most unstable balancing i’ve ever seen. I would honestly hate to be in charge of trying to balance the game.
I just watched the whole thing and it was honestly so damn interesting. I agree with a lot of things you said and I would say every hero added in OW2 is fundamentally pretty well designed except maybe for Mauga who is just way too one dimensional. Kiriko, Sojourn and heck even Lifeweaver could be fixed through balance and minor reworks imho. Nonetheless to me, if we're going to keep the same core abilities of Lifeweaver, he CANNOT be another Mercy. His interactions are way too brutal and game changing to be set on such a low skill floor.
I think both his heal and life grip should be on aiming instead of targeting with the latter no longer granting immortality. The cooldown could then be reduced a bit to allow the player to attempt more of these lifegrip moves which consequently would not succeed everytime, since there would be counterplay to it due to the absence of immortality. If life grip still feels oppressive in the sense of denying value too easily, the maximum range could be reduced so the Weaver player would have to position better and potentially take more risk to execute it.
to me some characters could be easy to fix others not so much, I think with Moira given how her primary fire works which is a large invisible sphere that when a target falls within it is hit and the relevant animation centers the effect on the target fiving the impression of lock on. but if that sphere actually shrank over time when biotic grasp is used, making it harder to keep a lock longer rewarding for better aim, but also rewards target players for better defensive movements. this would keep Moria with a low barrier to pick up but also require high skill to get better value. also make her less oppressive to face in that it falls back to more to skill in winning the 1v1 than id does currently.
Thank you for being the one sane person I've seen to actually suggest an intelligent way to make Moira better rather than just "I hate moira remove her from the game"
I would also say another way to do it is to make her left click damage the lowest in the game DPS wise, I mean why should it be strong when she has a built-in aim bot. Her dueling potential should be in her abilities, like her orbs. Make her left click damage SUPER weak, but the longer a target takes damage from ur orb, the more damage they take from ur left click.
On the Genji side, there's even counterplay to the counterplay. As Ana I can melee and some Genjis will deflect because it looks like sleep dart.
I'm genuinely happier since I stopped playing OW2. Recommend it to everyone.
As a mid plat player whos trying to improve and climb with high skill heroes, its always frustrating losing a close game to a comp of noob heroes knowing that they most likely weren't better at the fundamentals of overwatch. Always feels like they're just opting to turn their brain off for the win instead of having to learn and apply real game knowledge to improve at the game.
Tanks only really have a problem with counters when their team doesn't want to help them out. Bastion is only a problem for winston when his dps won't handle the bastion for him. Doom only struggles against a bunch of CC when his team is a bunch of scared hitscans who want to sit in the back and can't/won't take advantage of all the focus he baits. Mauga is only a massive struggle vs anti if he doesn't have a kiri.
Also a lot of the "noob" heroes like junkrat and mercy don't feel easy at all. It feels so much easier to go zen and get value than it is on mercy. It is way more intuitive to get value on genji who has strong mobility and can dive or someone like sojourn/mcree where you can sit at range and shoot people than it is to play reaper where you need a weird rat gameplay to actually get to an effective range. Most of the noob heroes only seem strong as a way to get value if you're actually the worst player on the team and you just want to get some sort of value.
I agree with your first point so much. So much of tank is about forcing interaction from the oppents to create opportunities for your team. Being "countered" is the ultimate forced interaction. Secondly, in ow1, there was the maintank experience. Which is exactly what is happening right now to a single tank and was the reason tank ques got so long. So while 5v5 doesn't address that, 6v6 didn't either and 5v5 removes things like double shield.
the thing is for the last part you're talking about in higher elos. In metal ranks, it's super easy to get value out of reaper in comparison to genji because a lot of the players at a silver level don't have the mechanics required to do anything on genji. On reaper all they see is "shotgun do big damage" and it'll work since the enemy tank ( who is also silver ) will not know how to work around it. The issue is that a lot of these characters that struggle in high ranks like reaper junkrat, do amazing in low ranks because the enemy team doesnt know how to properly counter or lacks the mechanical skill to counter. Yeah genji CAN be a noob stomper, but that's only if you're better than the people in those silver lobbies. Once you get to your actual rank that reflects your skill level, someone could play a lower skill floor character and potentially get more value than you ( assuming you're not at high elo )
@lukasg4807 Whatever winton you're playing with must be pretty cracked at avoiding the bastion if you make it sound so easy. Personally I'd rather just swap dva than trust my bot genji to help me.
@@azuren26 No, I'm assuming some people have a good winton to duo with. Mine is pretty cheeks
I would like to see the cleanse removed. It’s Protection Suzu so I feel like it should keep the Immortality function and if we remove the cleanse it ties her less to Ana and makes Roadhog and Mauga way worse. It also nerfs the healing because it gets rid of the bonus cleanse healing.
Bud you have it backwards. The immortality NEEDS to go. The cleanse is the whole point of it and is good utility (especially Ana nade is the way it is)
Immortalities is the worst thing in overwatch. Bap field, suzu, lifegrip all terrible
@@JulianneStingray The immortality is the more skillful usage of the ability, especially with the duration decrease it has received. The cleanse is also the part that makes it completely trash on so many ultimates, Earth Shatter, Captive sun, Rampage, etc. Also like I said she is tied to heroes like Mauga and Roadhog just because of the cleanse which are both incredibly unhealthy heroes that she alone enables. If we removed cleanse and nerfed Anti’s effectiveness they would be much better abilities and then we could even reduce the cooldowns so they can be better play makers because currently if you play Kiriko into Ana you just have to save Suzu specifically for the Ana and you lose most of your playmaking ability. So no bud you have it backwards.
Suzu is burst healing, immortality and a cleanse in an area. It does too much. We can agree that something needs to go.
my God, the ENTIRE video is just him sitting in the training range.
The thing about counterpicking is that when you do well, you will get punished instead of rewarded, especially on tank.
When you do well on winston for example you get counterswapped by maybe at first 1-2 heroes. If you are skilled enough at winston you can still play him and get value, just makes it harder. When you still get value eventually you get countered by the entire enemy team, and you will get punished for playing well.
Because now, for the rest of the game, you will be playing tanks that are extremely boring to play and get value, or you play something that does absolutely nothing but survive.
I play(ed) this game for fun, I did not enjoy never being able to play a few of my favourite tanks because I'll get insta countered and have to swap.
First off, my choices are being limited by the map, secondly by what my teammates pick for heroes, and thirdly by how bad the enemy team will counter me.
People play heroes they find fun. Unless you play tank, you play what is required of you, or you will just lose. During that entire process, you have most likely been blamed and flamed at least 10 times by people who are not swapping their heroes because they are 'carrying'. In other words, they are playing heroes they enjoy and choose to continue to do so and won't swap.
The fact that I'm getting punished for playing well on tank has made me not play in the last 3 months.
I played every single tank and played every single role at diamond level except for plat 2 dps. I started ow in season 14 of ow1.
Biggest flaw for me is that I can't play Comp with my friends on Console while I'm on PC. I see zero reason why Crossplay in Comp isn't doable, Aim Assist can be turned off and the skill gap can be closed with time and practice. I have no other issues with this game.
Spilo, I recently discovered you and your channel… how tf are you not bigger than you are? You’re great and non bias it’s amazing, keep it up man🙌🏼
I think Sombra is generally more noob friendly than Genji right now. Genji is just likeball, lucio, echo or tracer, a hero that feels extremely clunky when you don't know what your doing
it is bc of 5v, it ruins the game from ten directions
"no." is not technically a complete sentence. A complete sentence requires a subject and a verb.
A lot of the details in this are getting to the heart of what needs to be discussed, kudos.
I do want to point out how limiting the gameplay terminology can be for overall game improvement ("Skill-based", "Value Floor/Ceiling", "Noob ", etc.), as these can inherently lock player ideas, concepts, and frameworks into isolat(ed)ing POVs. This is the main issue with 'High Level Players' constantly saying 'Low Level Play' doesn't matter for balance (despite Spilo saying in this video, those HLPs only make up 5% of the population).
It's also one of the main reasons these questions have been so difficult to answer over the years they have been happening; the language being used is limited. Always has been.
It's not so much a complex conversation, as it is a series of different but interlocking Conversations around Role Priorities, Conditional Effects, Educational + Learning Systems, UI + Visual Readability, Cognitive Load, and Overwatch's functional variance (Maps + Missions + Hero Kits + Kit combos + Role Function + etc.) that need to be expanded on to start seeing more of the picture for what it is.
5v5 ignores a lot of those conversations though, in favour of simplified, rhetorical fixes: lots of global passives + Role Obligation (instead of execution) + "Individual Impact" (it's a team-based game ffs). Which isn't to say OW1's format was better? But 6v6 was made in an under-equipped laboratory; 5v5 was made in a gym someone dragged a bunch of beakers and flasks into, so they could technically call it a chem-lab, just for tax purposes. There's room for improvements for both, but only one is setup to find answers.
I guess thinking "I almost had it" is crucial, because you won't always be performing at your peak, nor will being at your peak yet be sufficient, but you need to know what you could have done differently. What if I stood behind the other wall? Spun faster? Fled earlier? Aimed higher? As long as you think you are a few adjustments away from doing better, and that impression is true, the game is working.
This is an interesting argument. Making some heroes too easy to play makes other heroes essentially harder to play for less experienced players. I think the point at 13:34 is the most important. There shouldn't be too much disproportionate rewards for playing some characters. Regardless of how simple the basics of the character, you shouldn't have to drastic an advantage over other people playing other characters with similar levels of experience to you.
The problem with free value heroes in low ranks is skill *breakpoints*. Not that they get free value necessarily, I mean mercy gets free value with the beam. A bronze moira will always win against a bronze genji, but a gm moira has zero chance against a gm genji. At some point in the middle, there exists a breakpoint where this matchup is even. In my experience, that one in particular lies around gold.
Is that a problem really though? How should it be otherwise? Should it be that bronze genjis always beat bronze moiras and continue to beat them up through GM? Would that really be fun for new players? It seems like this relationship you've identified is actually a good thing for the game.
I just think that skill needs to be forward, even if the kits remain the same, what if suzu only suzud an area the size of a hanzo arrow, or only affected one hero, what if sombra hack failed and went on cd if you don't perfectly track the target you're trying to hack for the entire duration, what if bastions fire rate ramped up over the course of use, meaning you have to perfectly track to do decent damage, what if reaper fired slugs instead of having a shotgun, what if torbs turret could only watch a cone infront of where you place it, what if mercy had to track her healing targets to keep the beam up, what if Moira had to maintain perfect aim to keep sucking off an enemy or instead of orb randomly bouncing around she pressed to ability again to pause it in a spot, etc etc, there's ways of making things fairer and more skillful without affecting the overall hero fantasy
2 tanks, 5 dps, 1 support
Cringe. Whos gonna heal the fucking 5 DPS and 2 tanks at the same time ? LOL
@@Thermalfusi0nI think he just wants to triple the healing and then force the one support into a healbot lmao
I think we should retire the term “counterplay.” There should not be counters in games. There should be interplay, i.e. skill matchups or advantages based on choices. And those advantages should require execution, knowledge, or positioning.
One solution is abilities should probably have their power nerfed but be more frequent. That fixes the over-reliance on low skill floor heroes and helps with some burst damage or CC on tanks.
I think OW should also remove the ability to swap heroes after a match starts, you should draft your team like other moba games/paladins and live with the draft you made, the ability to swap mid match makes people crutch on swapping over an over vs learning problematic match ups, in fighting games fighting characters that might have an advantage vs yours is a big part of the learning experience.
@@zander2758 Flawed argument imo. Comparing Overwatch to a moba is a thing people do a lot even though its barely even a somewhat fitting comparison, literally the only similarity is that both games have characters with abilities on cooldowns and a powerful ultimate ability. Swapping isn’t a thing in mobas for a variety of reasons, such as character builds/items being a large focus (not a thing in OW) and more importance being placed on lane 1v1s and 2v2s (if you allowed swapping you would just constantly swap against your lane partner, whereas in overwatch the game is mostly teamfight oriented and you have to consider the entire team you’re swapping into).
Overwatch has been designed around swapping being a thing since the very beginning because it adds depth to the game and encourages wide hero pools. Counter-swapping didn’t become a problem until OW2 because they changed the format and fucked up the gameplay loop that had been established for years, in addition to adding braindead characters like Mauga that ANYONE can swap to and get value off of.
And don’t even get me started on your fighting game argument, matchups are such a core part of fighting games that they are literally WHY people have secondaries and pocket characters to cover matchups that may be severely losing or borderline unwinnable for their main, and “counter-swapping” is DEFINITELY a thing in any best of three or best of five format.
@@--Glory-- first the moba comparison i made is more of a general one, i can also bring up other competitive games that do the same, like how RTS games don't allow you to swap clans mid match or even paladins which is a hero shooter like OW and doesn't allow swapping either.
i'd disagree with overwatch being specifically designed around swapping, i mean during the ow1 era high level comps and even now the players barely swapped between matches if at all and only played 1 specific comp in the first place, else it still would be better for people not to be allowed in 5v5 if the hero design is an issue so people have to draft around their picks, someone playing a tank weak to mauga? Pick Ana, your team weak to ball dives? Pick bastion or smt like that, drafting around your team instead of being able to just switch on a dime is far more interesting decision making to me even if the game was designed around swappkng in the first place, also OW also was designed without any role lock to speak of and then they added one, just because a game was designed a certain way at first doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't change things.
Okay so here's the thing, fighting games don't allow you to counterswap someone mid match and if you can switch after a match its only for like one character since most FG tournaments allow only 1 or 2 characters to be picked per signing and even then you get stuff like that one F.A.N.G main that got very far while only playing fang and learning to play vs poor matchups instead of swapping, meanwhile in OW you can swap out to anyone at any point, there is no drafting there outside of the player specific drafting.
@@zander2758 I think I'd like the draft idea more if they adjusted the cool downs. I like your point in principle that learning the map and hero matchups is probably healthier, but then cooldowns, generalists, and low skill floor heroes might become an even bigger problem imo.
I enjoy your fighting game comparison, and that's why I actually really would like to see them switch from counters. Obviously it's not a perfect analogy, but good fighting games do not have that issue. There are definitely good/bad matchups, but most fighters have flaws and don't overly excel. OW should tweak the really sharp matchups and I think most heroes would benefit.
@@DoubleEm08 i do agree that things like generalists and low skill floor heroes would be a problem, hell they are problems now largely because generalists are too good at everything (like kiriko) and low skill floor heroes often don't have high skill ceilings which makes getting value off them feel too dull and if those heroes are meta they become boring to play against all the time.
OW atm at least has people that OTP with any character all the way to places like top 500 and such, which does show that the biggest thing that matters is the players skill rather than the heroes inherent stats, also yeah, fighting games nowdays have improved in how to handle matchups, i mean back then in sf2 sagat vs ehonda was like 8-2 in sagats favor, while in sf5 its a 6-4 in sagats favor, still not a good matchup ofc but the disadvantage isn't large and what matters most is the skill of the honda.
I'm a doom one trick. Im either playing doom or im not playing the game. Idk what happed to OW but after like April my matchmaking has been horrendous. As a doom player I have to rely so heavily on supports that if I don't have one on me almost all the time its an instant loss. The game feels like support check. If you have better supports you win. Don't get me started about counters. Hog, Cree, Sombra, Ana and Brig every game. finally I quit yesterday. Idk what they doing with this game anymore.
OW isn’t a one trick friendly game.
I don’t think easy pick up heroes should hard counter other heroes at most a soft counter. For example genji is a high skill ceiling and a hard to pick up character however, his counters are moira, mei, winston, symmetra, zarya, and can argue any flyers for lower level players. Most of those characters you just look in the general direction and do damage. It doesn’t seem right that a moira that throws out dmg orb and holds right click can kill me in 3 secs where as I have to hit my whole combo perfect within that time frame. It’s like I’m playing chess and the moira is playing tic tac toe and she’s a fucking SUPPORT.
As for counterplay there should always be room for some but, it’s not easy to implement if it came down to it the lower skill the character that takes to use or master the less counterplay that character should have available and for higher skilled ceiling characters the more counterplay options should be available. Obviously you wouldn’t want the high skill characters too strong but the opposite is absolutely worse. There’s no reason low skill characters should ever be meta or have insane value. They’re there to learn the fundamentals and that’s it. If blizzard was good at designing characters or balancing they would make the no skill characters easy to learn characters but hard to master. TLDR soft counters good hard counters bad
genji outrange and can play around literally every single one of those characters. he kills moira 1v1 cause shes a slow damage over time and hes a burst character, his dash outranges every single one of those beams so the only time you should die is if you dashed badly into your counters range and its on cooldown. those ARE soft counters, the only thing is you actually need to be skilled to beat them. but I thought thats why you chose to play a hard character?
there's a reason most top 500 dps got there playing genji, cause he can play around his counters, it just actually takes skill to do so. I hate people like this who play a hard character like genji and blame that for the reason they are underperforming. People outplay those counters all the time on genji, if you can't do it that means you aren't good enoguh to play him. If you want to play him anyway don't cry cause you lost to someone playing a simpler character, you chose to handicap yourself and they didn't. you shouldn't be rewarded for just clicking on a hard characters face when you are bad at them, you should actually have to know how to play the character to perform well on them. crazy thought I know.
If you think those are hard counters to Genji then you simply aren't a good genji (neither am I),
had me at "high rank players are loudmouths". I'm saying, the unjustified ego of a quirked up plat player is already unbearable. The higher rank you get, it seems the more people speak in absolutes as if they know it all. When in reality if they did know it all they'd be able to convince people better. The ability to teach is directly tied to the how well you understand something on a fundamental level. It makes it easier for you to relate one topic to another to explain it easier.
If you make every character objectively more skillful it is still shitter on shitter action. Bad players make bad plays and already have no idea what is going on, and if you disagree with this point you are just in denial and arguing in bad faith. Top tier players already absolutely shit on low tier players, making characters more skillful wont change anything but high rank dynamics. The main problem is when you finally improve there are characters that literally "just stand there" and just prevent you and your team from making plays, ie mauga, hog, cas nade, widow, ashe, ana cooldowns, wife leavers existence, all of mercy's kit, brig, kiri cleanse, bap lamp, all of orisas abilities, and discord orb. What is in common with most of these characters run and hide while healing or just prevent you from doing what your character does. Why is zen a bunker? Why do we have 2 supports who literally just hide and heal/damage boost in a fps game (3 if you include brig?) Why are like half the tank roster just moving walls that when they hit you, you just die?
I understand supports are there to help the team just why do all of them only use their cooldowns almost to help themselves?
Simple because ow is moving away from being a team game as rapidly as possible. Imagine if lamp and cleanse didnt affect the casters they would be actual support abilities instead of a i no die button. Kiri already has tp and bap has a full heal on press, why do they also get to make themselves immortal on top of doing good damage and already having get out of jail free cards.
Man i love Splio this man is a Frickin' genius yet he is so underrated.
What if Mauga were to put his guns in front of him when crouching. You would have a shield of sorts while not moving of course. No dmg mitigation but cc block. Can't hack, sleep, be cancelled by spear but could be pushed around and your sides and behind is open.
I like what people are saying about Kiriko in chat that the easier parts on her kit enable her more skillful playstyle. Without suzu and swift step she can’t really make plays. I would add that the amount of things that she can do makes her harder in a sense because there’s more things that the player has to decide (where to position in a way that maximizes value, when to heal, when to damage, when to suzu, etc.) These things require game sense.
I can still see why people would want her nerfed because of how prolific in high level play she is. My idea would be to nerf the ultimate somehow, because that’s the main thing top players pick her for. Doing so wouldn’t hurt low ranks as badly imo because people can’t hit shots and most teammates don’t seem to use it - or they try and get rolled anyway 🤷♂️
I know it’s not your intention but honestly I’m just driven further and further into 6v6 camp. I miss tanking with my duo and for me any argument raised that wasn’t about the tank matchup just felt like minor complaints by comparison. Like I wish tank had it so good that we only had a skill shot to complain about
To me counter play is booping their double shield tanks off of high ground on first point Anubis. Maybe going junk hanzo to burst through that annoying bastion bunker comp. Counter play is not choosing orisa and negating everything their rein can do off of innate value.
4:48 LMFAO, i was not expecting him to die like that 😭
27:15
a lot of people mentioning that counterplay should be a skill check; im heavily inclined to disagree.
It can be, sure, but it doesnt have to be, nor does it make it good.
For good counterplay, you have to ask; What should the limits of this character be, and how far should they be able to extend beyond that?
So many chars in hero based videogames that have high skill floor, incredible skill ceiling, and counterplay for seemingly everything.. And they just get to ignore fundamentals to the wayside and live in their own little world.
tank is the only role where every character's kit SHOULD be complicated and intricate (=/= hard to play) so the devs have more tools to balance them around because it is also the least defined role in the game and making character hard to kill is just not enough. (I hate roadhog)
one interesting idea for rank, is to incentive playing less noob heroes. make it ranking up completely related to hero and how you're winrate compares to the avg player on that hero in that rank. like say you pick moira in bronze or silver, and say the average winrate for moira in that rank is 65-70% or something, if you get even 55-60% winrate, you either dont level up, or you level up extremely slow. relative to the hero selected.
compare that to somebody willing to try ana in bronze/silver. maybe her winrate is awful as she requires so much skill and nuance, maybe its 40%, the ana able to win 40% of the time in bronze/silver is arguably a better player and understands fundamentals better, but more so- it would incentive people to try out harder heroes, as youre 45% on ana would end up ranking you up faster than a 65% on moira.
and apply the same logic to other heroes.
I also think it could be cool that at the start at each game every team bans a hero or two from the enemy comp that theyre not allowed to pick.
hopefully the devs watch this and realize 5v5 justy nullifys all of this counterplay ability. 6v6 2-2-2 is the way to play ow; how we get there via matchmaking and group assembly is another question. new players defending 5v5 and season 9 buffs have the worst informed opinion on the best way forward.
Fatal flaw is the match maker. Qp and comp Skill levels/rank/mma should be super narrow . Id rather wait 30-60min for a gg. Instead of playing 20-30 matches of crap and have 1 or 2 ggs
loved your take on rein
Blizz is trying to balance heroes across qp, ranked through bronze to GM. Change attributes according to brackets. Example: Brig is nerfed to ground over the years so it's fair on high ranks tho unplayable at lower ranks. Pharah is a non issue to counter on high ranks but lower ranks can't shoot shit so it looks like Pharah is op.
I fully admit that I haven't watched the video yet, but the title makes me think of what, at least I think, is the most fundamental flaw with overwatch: That the characters in the game are designed to make you attached to them just like ones in a movie or book, but that they also have pretty singular focuses on their "job". Someone who is a widowmaker player for example will most likely not just like her gameplay, but her writing and style. You get attached to the hero fantasy along with those too, you aren't just getting attached to the characters, you become the character. Trouble is that heroes in overwatch are also completely disposable when the rubber hits the road, widowmaker in this case effectively being a walking sniper rifle. You're also supposed to switch between them like you would a gun in another shooter like CS, like they're a tool to be used, complete with singular and pragmatic functions, but they're not designed to just be tools; they're designed for you to be fans of them as characters.
That suuuuuucks and is a complete contradiction! It's no wonder everyone can feel so frustrated with this game all the time; it's one thing to be cc'd but now you're playing and watching your favourite character be hindered and killed in the most anticlimactic way possible about 10-11 times a match, every match. Counterswapping is inherent to the game and is a feature, not a bug, but it never ever feels that way.
If you master enough a character you shouldnt need to swap, it is even easier if you swap? Yes, but if you master the character enough there isnt need. Take a look at zebra for example. You cant expect to have 5 hours with widow and be completely unstoppable
And about your example is a little bit stupid, if you are playing widow you arent going to get hindered (she is a sniper, what are you doing playing close range to a cass??) and if you do, it isnt that much of a problem, try to scope him and kill him. The most annoying moment could be maybe if they go sombra, but again with aim and knowledge you can kill her.
@@JINXED_00 You can master a character enough to not have to swap, sure, but lots of people only use one gun in videogames along with a myriad of other self-imposed rules. The contradiction I talk about in the game is still there even in that case, even if you decide not to play it in a certain way. I also don't know where you're getting the idea that I think someone should be unstoppable with 5 hours on widow, or any character.
@@cleric7017 If you go OTP you agree to those self-imposed rules, just like in any other game or do you think snipers in real life dont need to be careful with getting close range to someone? Ofc they do, the same happens if you play widow or if you go and play only knife in call of duty, you cant go long-mid range you need to approach the enemy in a specifif way.
Idk, maybe by the fact that you are getting ccd being a widow makes me think that. If you know how to play widow you arent going to get ccd that much
@@JINXED_00 It's fine if you agree to those rules, but you're still going to be experiencing the contradiction I was talking about. And I think you agree with me actually, the fact that you think of widow in the same way as going knife only in cod is my exact point and the crux of the issue, that she, as well as every character, is designed for you to be attached to but also something you're supposed to think of as just a gun that is instantly swappable. Those ideas go against each other
Also, I don't play widow. It was just an example, you can replace her with any hero in my point
@@cleric7017 And what happens if you experience those contradictions? Shall we remove ccs? shall we remove all abilities from the game so the widow isnt countered anymore? In a game with abilities, always an abitility will counter the other one. You play X that gets countered by Y ability.
This happened also in OW1 and you are all acting like it only happens in OW2 (It was even worse LOL) Widowmaker for example in OW1 could be dived by TWO tanks (supposing that the dps doesnt actually dive her) It was even harder to be an otp
Spoiler alert; team 4 will never fix the game and it will eventually fade into obscurity if they don’t keep pumping out flashy cosmetic collaborations like Cowboy Bebop
They’ve made their bed already; they will continue to waste development resources on “reworks” that don’t actually address the issues of the hero in 5v5
hog and ball don’t play differently than before, and have all the same counters and counter play…you will always need to swap with a proficient enough Ana or Sombra respectively on the other team.
There is no fixing that intrinsic dynamic when having one tank since the game is fundamentally about swapping for a situational advantage (that’s why, outside of periods with wild imbalances like goats or double shield or even individual comps being weak like Lucios win rate will be worse when dive is weak or zen with poke) win rates generally stay within a percentage or two of 50% for most heroes historically in overwatch. Edit: there’s several ways you can interpret that, in my opinion it shows that situational play is more common than “one tricking” as you’d see more drastic swings based of balance, rather than what I believe we’re seeing is players switching; with the coin toss that is online multiplayer matchmaking being our roughly 50% (if each team is roughly the same skill, should be roughly 50-50)
People get too caught up in the byte shedding, overly autistic, underly holistic approach of whining about individual heroes, when most individual interactions don’t matter unless in specific contexts. Overwatch is closer to a traditional sports like Basketball; where adjustments need to be made extremely fast, you need to know the full context of what all the heroes are doing and capable of doing (ability cd tracking) *in that moment* to make the right decision. Counter picking and counter play *is* the game.
Fuck your “hero fantasy” this is a team sport (don’t you dare hit me with the Kobe Bryant “There’s no I in team, but there is a M-E in that mothafucka”
It's a video game not a sport. Apart from the cringe analogy you make some good points and I agree generally
As a newb (and maybe a noob), i'm thankful for newb heroes. There are so many aspects of the game you have to know of when you are new. People that sunk hundreds of hours into the game might not even realize how hard it is to pic the game up. There are so many skills to learn even on "no skills heroes".
Learning the maps for pathing and positioning (i've run into so many walls while retreating), learning the cool downs of your heroes, your teammates heroes and the enemy heroes as well as keeping taps on ultimate charges (lost so many fights to rein ults cause we clumped and no one knew rein ult was up) and lastly the more mechanical skill where you actually have to hit things.
I can say playing the more well liked Damge heros is a horrible experience for me. I don't do a lot of Damage, nor do i get eleminations and I also die fast. Newb heros let me ignore at least one of these aspects so that i can concentrate on the others and actually get better at them without having the feeling my team is loosing because of me. (Which still happens often enough)
I actually hope they make more Solo course hero masteries in the future, to learn the tricks a hero has without having to stumble across them or feeling forced to watch TH-cam videos on them (where often enough its hard to find a good one).
My personal verdict on overwatch (after overall 200 games played) is that it is an incredibly new player unfriendly game, though the devs seem to be trying to change.
Also playing against heroes like bastion, widow ... helps you learn quite a few things (mostly not staying in the open but also flanking ..). So i disagree that this is an issue as fatal as you make it, especially since most of these heroes are rarely seen in top500/competitive games.
Thank you for your comment. I also agree that OW isn't as noob friendly as all these people claim. All of these arguments are coming from very enfranchised players who have been playing for long amounts of time and don't remember/consider what its like to be a new player. How are new players supposed to learn the game if they always get trounced upon by more experienced players by default with no "easy value" to be had at all?
It feels to me like its all Mid-to-High skilled players getting salty that they sometimes lose to lower-skilled players/characters. I absolutely agree that low-floor characters should have careful limits and not be able to dominate high-ranks of course.
When I was new to the game, I started playing because my friends invited me. I started off with newb heroes who could get "free value" as even though I sucked at the game... I didn't want to make the game unplayable for my team-mates. Having noob-heroes to play actually let me play with my friends long enough to learn the game and eventually play harder heroes until hundreds of hours later I can play almost any hero in the game at at least a passable level. If noob heroes did not exist, I would have 100% quit the game early on as not only would I be not having fun, but I would be dragging down the experience of my friends and impacting their fun as well.
I also agree with you that the hardest role to learn in the game is actually DPS. Most of the complaints about noob heroes and "free value" are directed at support heroes or overtuned tanks like Orisa or Mauga. DPS is the only role that needs to actively apply pressure and use abilities offensively (and take more risk) to push their team to victory.
The more high-skill you make a game, the smaller the audience for that game gets (look at Smash Bros versus classic street-fighter style fighting games).
I agree with almost everything except the top 1% opinions don’t matter when they have the biggest voice they matter when your favorite streamer stops streaming ow cuz it’s so bad or is constant complaining makes you not want to play
If you're only playing a game because your favorite streamer is, then you should have moved on before they did.
Bastion and Orisa get so much free value that they can be used as bot enemies is PvE with little to no changes. OW programmers never did well with bot AI, so the fact these characters can be a threat points to low value floors.
My opinion for a while has been to please take away invulnerability from kiriko suzu and lower the cooldown
Illari is the only reason my aim's getting any better.
I truly think they need to stop adding new heroes. apart from the hero imbalance between dps and the other roles, a new hero every other season only hurts blizzards chances of ever achieving a real state of balance. I think the game can be kept fresh enough with maps and especially reworks.
I should always be at fault when I die, and that mustn't be not hitting the "H" button in spawn. If i feel like my options are ruled out and that's not them being beyond my skill but beyond my hero' then it is the game failing. Maybe ammunition types come and Mauga incendiary deals less dmg to armor and can't burn but to get through it you use the normal gun, then Mauga literally has echo beam baked into his kit that applies towards armor. Just a suggestion but that would mean with armor I'm able to take space without getting mowed down. My shield will get destroyed as easy as it did and that is some nuance to the game. Mauga can have tighter spread and better dmg on incendiary too. With this, it wouldn't effect huge-hitboxed, armored chars. Against Reaper, Bastion, Mauga; Winton will struggle but the "chaingun ammo" could just have less "pierce" as well as "shotgun shells". A low winton will die surely but not a full hp winton. Not unkillable but there is conditions to be met like echo. Bastion would be better off staying as recon against high hp monke but you would benefit from switching halfway through. Bastion would use turret against non shield targets like hog who has their own counter-play in the form of damage negation. JQ is harder to hit, so on and so forth. Widow will be better against armor but to burn through that she will forgo the one shot potential. Add charge time and i hope that is enough to make the decision matter actually.
I think instead of pumping out new hero’s, they should take some time off from that and tweak current hero’s
I think starting these discussions (yes, each and every time) by saying "overwatch 2 is an amazing game" before you go on to criticizing it makes all the difference!
Maybe a hot take, but I feel like Mauga/Hog *SHOULD* be hard countered by nade/sleep/discord. You’re trading traditional tanking abilities for raw damage.
Then ana and zen shouldnt also be the top threats to every other tank. Seriously, every tank has to respect the shit out of them or die.
I will say this. 5v5 forces more overrides, 6v6 allows more exploitable weaknesses for all.
Is junkrat really a noob stomper like bastion, because when I started playing OW I was bad a rat and it took me a few months to see how other players played him and get good at him.
This. Junkrat hasnt actually had a good "free" map since they took out 2cp. His ability to hard lockout doorways and potentially teamwipe without penalty if he fails with his ult were huge. His only other value was comparably good dps into unmissable targets and melee range near instakill zone of influence. Those last 2 are also less relevant away from 2cp and the last was nerfed into nonexistence. Hes been so bad since the health buffs
spilo with another banger vid.
noob stomp heroes are also how otps are usually created. their skills dont transfer other to other heroes and they lose on other heroes, so they keep playing their one trick.
My hot take is that Moira is fine and that SOME "noob heroes" are good for the game because you need easy/simple to play heroes to onboard new players to the game. These heroes however should NOT be overtuned and should absolutely fall off in higher ranks. I think its absolutely acceptable to have some heroes dominate lower ranks but high-skill ceiling heroes dominate high ranks. If you are a one-trick of any kind then you should not be able to thrive in high ranks no matter what, you should have to learn to play the game and counter other heroes.
I like Moira a lot and I think it's actually a sign of good design that she can't get you to higher ranks. She's a fun character to play and having the escape tool of fade is actually a great tool to teach new players about picking fights/engaging/retreating etc. I think the game would ACTIVELY be worse without her. Come at me Moira haters.
One "noob" hero that I hate however is Mercy. Mercy either makes the game insufferable for the opponent's team (if they're good) and miserable for your own team (if they're bad). She also makes really bad players think that they're good players when they're absolutely not, so she's not a good "noob hero" for the purposes of teaching people the game and getting them to improve.
The game should have a good mix of low-floor/low-ceiling heroes and high floor/high ceiling heroes. If there were no noob heroes OW2 would have half of the playerbase it currently has.
playing against tanks like sigma and orisa is just not fun and its not fun to play as them ether, you are a moving wall that has a small window of weakness it does not feel great to spam everything at a tank and its not fun to just sit there ether waiting to explode as orisa and sig and id like to mention that counter play and counter swapping are different the reason it feels good to kill a genji as ana is because you have to be good at hitting shots and wait for the right moment but the reason i say its not fun to kill a orisa is because it feels like a marathon and you only win because she ran out of cooldowns getting hit by everything, not that you hit a crazy sleep or nad basically it kind of feels one dimensional you sit there and wait. than that you are in danger and you better make the right move and make it fast i could go more into it but i don't want to take all your time
Some ideas for noob character changes.
Bastion - when in turret form, the turret itself can be crit or double crit. Bastion is a high value high risk character. A high value character should not be tanky but easily killed if they position wrong.
Another idea would be that his bullets are more damage to shields but not so much damage to flesh/armor. Makes him more of the shield break character rather than the tank buster.
Moira - succ - this ability should be on a timer or a have a charge up. It can still easily lock on, but she can pull say, 50 damage when it lands, recharges her meter, and has to wait 3 seconds to use again, forcing her to heal her team in between rather than just backline dps. She can still have her damage orb though and this should still keep her identity as a needing to do some dps to recharge her healing.
Fade - as this is the same science as reapers fade, she should be visible when it happens, just not damagable like reaper. Making her fully invisible enables her to juke out characters and go back to dpsing in the backline.
Mauga im not too sure on. Think they need to just redo the entire character honestly. Perhaps changing his guns to flamethrowers? Something to force his range low, but his impact higher on consistent hits?
Anyone thoughts or anyone think these might work?
All pretty bad.
@@maniacpwnageking let's hear your ideas then.
Precomment- Im excited and hoping for some touches on game theory. Ill leave some updates with time stamps when relevant
No clue why it's bastion and junkrat as the noob stompers, as a silver 2 bap who accidentally joined an open queue ranked game. Roadhog absolutely shreds if you have even the minimum amount of skill.
I just wanna duo que tank again
Real
The fatal flaw with the current dynamics of the game are the supports being way too effective at healing, denial abilities, or both.
Whether you change the format to 6v6, 5v5 open, or keep it the same, the current support structure is super unhealthy for the game's balancing and design.
the real fatal flaw were thej friends we made a long tyhe way
I'd rather more maps and modes and like 2 really well thought out characters a year
I think a lot of the story of Overwatch's balance has been overreactions in response to previous overreactions. Character A or strategy X is way too powerful? Here comes character B, who absolutely nukes that issue from orbit. Oh, but by doing that we fucked up this other thing, whoops let's swerve to fix that, then swerve to fix the next thing that broke. Barring a break period on changes and updates to really hammer out where everything stands - or basically the entire roster simultaneously getting rebuilt from basic principles, I'm not sure it's possible to fix this situation.
Watchin The Vid rn , will update my thoughts by the end. My entry into this is 'Marvel Rivals' is out and people are loving it does alot of things that are a breath of fresh air to the Hero Shooter Genre.
Imo get rid of or completely rework pharah, widow and genji. Game fixed.
I’ve really been looking at the game and I honestly think that 6v6 is the answer . The extra tank body just does so much for the current issues, it almost doesn’t matter what the 2nd tank does as long as it has the ability to threaten some space to force either an ability or take an angle . The pain points of characters like Kiriko would not be such an issue . Nor life weaver nor bap lamp . Even in the event that you get a character like a hog otp . As long as people are looking at him and he’s threatening space you can make it work . That’s the beauty of 6v6 . So much can work even if it’s not optimal . Which makes the game feel far more expressive than it is now in 5v5.
There is no other community more mentally challenged than the Overwatch community.
^
Yeah pretty much
Mm 2k community pretty brain dead
Being great at overwatch does not make you a videogame designer
Bring back 6v6 Blizzard !