Fitting point motors controlled by DCC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 4 ส.ค. 2024
- DCC control for point motors on a model railway -
Wiring and fitting point motors to my turnouts for my model railway is what I'm covering in this video. The points will be DCC controlled, and I'll also be using the switch in the point (Seep PM1) to power the frog in my electrofrog points.
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Great tutorial thanks Simon. You're a natural teacher. Starting my first dcc point now.
Great tutorial for father and son just starting out in the hobby for the first time, that helped us heaps
Great video. Showing all the components laid out on the workbench with the connections was really useful. Nice bit of work getting all 8 points done :)
Excellent "How to". Best I've seen. Rob
Yes, I've not tried it myself but it does mention in the instructions you can use it for accessories like signals.
Best wiring diagram I have ever seen, thank you.
Thanks!
good clear explanation. Now to try my first one. I like the decoder, the two i bought (DAC20s) also service 4 points and 4 accessories but on using a set of connectors not separate pads. Yours is much better
I love the Seep point motors. I'm going to buy a lot of them.
Thanks I'll give that a try next time I'm soldering, am getting better at it with practice!
It's the Lenz Digital silver mini, I got mine from ehattons but the wired ones don't seem to be showing up anymore, only the 6 pin socket ones.
The third hand is a great helping hand. As fit the live frog I found solder wires across your point to just above the switch blade and then cut the Track near the frog that way you'll always power to it there a few videos on it on here cheers Ian
Thanks, very useful. I intend to try it one day soon
good video on DCC points for my layout in the future i'm looking into Gaugemaster point motors
Great explanation. Thanks for sharing. Subbed!
Sorry to ask questions on this 2013 episode but I do find your demonstrations very useful. I have an extended train set layout which I am thinking of converting to dcc. My question is the electro points compatible with code 80 set track because electro points look longer than the insul points.
Great video. Where could I get the decoder you used?
Hi Simon do you know if there is a lot of difference in wiring between the elctrofrog and insulafrog i'm just set up and all my points are insulfrog thanks in advance..Alan
Simon I use normal points but hiw do I make them more reliable without installing point motors
Yes, was a bit of a mission getting them all in place, not exactly comfortable underneath the layout!
Hi Simon.. so if I'm using a second hand Hornby points decoder, do I have to set it back to default to start again?
Once again great help Simon thank you. When flicking the switch to program mode then back to run mode do you have to do this with each of the 8 ports?
Yes switch one in to 'learning mode' send the command, switch back to 'run' mode and repeat that process for each of the 8 ports 👍
where did you get the decoder
Hi Simon Brilliant Tutorial, Do you need to use any insulating fishplates for the electrofrog points?
Hi Simon - I have a problem with my Hornby Point decoders R8247 as they are not strong enough to throw the points, please do you know how I can add CDU to give them an extra kick, the point motors I'm using are the Peco pl11 and also I'm using Railmaster
Hey Simon! The only video that has explained it all clearly to me! Just need my decoder now! I was just wondering what wires do you attach to where on the decoder?
Thank You!
Glad the video helped, it can be daunting trying to figure it out!. The 1st 2 terminals (DCC) are for the power from the DCC bus, then use the 3 "solonoid" terminals for the 3 wires from the point motor - B to L, A to R and then C to COM.
Can you use a Lenz Ls 150 Decoder on seeps, as I have linked the Ls 150 to my operating system and blinls as it should however the motor does not throw more than a mm in each direction
Brilliant Simon, thank you. You are using Seep PM1 motors, any particular reason? I have Seep PM2 to be wired but can swop them, what is your advice? I would, one day like to add signals, if possible. [might depend on you having done a 'how to' video by then!]
Layout has some 30 short Left & Right points plus 4 of each of Double Switches, Crossovers and Wye Turns. Is there a cheaper way of controlling them? Initially beginning with Dynamis system (hope to control points from this) knowing/suspecting I'll have to up grade once all or most of layout wired up working. Any help, very gratefully received. Again, thanks for this, these brilliant clear and informative videos.
I think the difference is the PM2 doesn't have the connection to power the frog. The PM1 connection "F" can be soldered to the frog and the correct polarity is sent because as the point motor switches from 1 side to the other, a built in switch is thrown changing the polarity. The PM2 should be fine if you just want it to throw the point. Will have to have a go at a signal, been looking at the Dapol ones!
Hi Simon,
thanks for your videos, I find them all very informative and well produced.
I very new to the world of model railways and am currently busy researching the best way to motorise the points on my DCC layout and invariably Google points me in your direction.
I watched this video first but have since seen your review of the Cobolt digital point motors which would seem to suggest that you've had a bit of an upgrade since you made this video. Any particular reason for that?
I'm very tempted by the Cobolt digital because of the realism of their operation and the neatness of their design. My layout uses insulfrog points, simply because that's what came with the kit, would the Cobolt digital still be a good choice in your opinion and lastly are they compatible with the Hornby Railmaster?
Thanks and regards.
Ken Toogood 2 of my Seep point motors stopped working, so I thought I'd see if the Cobalt were any better because I needed to know which to choose for the next layout. The Cobalt digital with the DCC built in are much more convenient to wire / install, and yes, the operation is more realistic as its a nice slow movement. I'm going to use the Cobalt Digital in the next layout so I guess thats a good recommendation! They should work with Railmaster, you would just put one into 'learning' mode and use Railmaster to throw the point, then put it back into 'normal' mode.
Hi, just picked up this video demo, I am looking at the DCD AD8FX Cobalt IP accessory decoder unit, but like you I am stuck at present with the Hornby Select , have you experienced any compatibility
problems since installation?
Regards Robert
Mine worked fine with the Select, only problem was it was a pain typing in the numbers every time to change a point.
typically, just after I recorded my comment about Seep point motors being "well regarded" I stumbled on loads of forum posts saying they were problematic and unreliable! Thankfully mine have behaved perfectly so far, fingers crossed.
Simon Did you ever connect your signals to the dcc concept ad-s8?
+Raymond Hinks yes, it was a bit complicated! Video here - th-cam.com/video/l1GU1mKPSYQ/w-d-xo.html
Hi simon, just followed your video. I have th 8fx but think it is similar to the 8s. Iam confused as during the video you describe a common going to terminal c on the PM1, where does the common (green wire) go into the Decoder? Later in the video when you are attaching decoder to board, all i can see is two wires coming from the decoder ouitput terminals (black & red), what has happened with the common wire? I would be grateful for any advice as DCC Concepts site is not good for advice. Regards.
mrsulzer66 It is a bit confusing how I've shown it....I'll try and explain! The 8 decoders on the board are in pairs. So 1 decoder from each pair needs to be connected to the DCC bus (which is the red and black wires you mentioned). The 3 wires from the PM1 go into the section labeled 'solenoid'. in the vid at about 10:24 you can see 1 side of the 'pair' or decoders on the end has the 2 DCC wires, but nothing else, because I've used the decoder on the other side of the pair to attach the 3 wires from the PM1. I just hadn't got round to connecting PM1s to all of the decoder boards (if I had then we'd have 5 wires in that side, 2 DCC bus wires and 3 from the PM1). Hope that helps!
Hi Simon
Interesting video but could not quite make out how you connected the Seep pin to the already fitted and ballasted turnout. Which Peco turnout is it? Is this one of the Seeps which stopped working?
Bernard C Its a code 55 Peco turnout (I think Peco call them 'finescale'). I had to drill a hole from underneath the turnout, very carefully so as not to hit the turnout with the drill! Then just slid the pin up from underneath and it goes through the little hole on the plastic bar that throws the turnout one way or the other. There are holes on both sides of the bar so you can use either side.
After reading the last comment may I say you only need to cut the middle if you are jointing I live feed to the blades i fold this give you smoothing running but most newer point have it already cut. Could I ask can you wire a toggle switch to the board to be able to control by the hand or by pc. Cheers Ian
Hmm, I guess you could try another set of wires coming form the point motor to a 'manual' switch but I'm not sure how to wire that up!
Thanks David!
Hello Simon great stuff thanks for the info. I managed to track them down on the Hattons web page.. im hoping that I will be able to figure a way to control the signal at the same time I switch the point by dcc, because that will be handy as to avoid any collisions.as I have some points on areas of my layout which I cant see .. thanks again Rob
Hi Simon Do you put two plastic isolators at the V point on Turn out?
Yep, that's exactly how I did it.
Hi Simon did you ever get round to using the accessory part of AD-S8 for signals ?
Almost...I have just ordered a couple of Dapol signals so I'll do a video of how to install them once they arrive.
OK just let us no,just put 4 more points in working OK but got a short some were,are well tomorrow is an other day.
Hi Simon I must have a wire cross some were for when I switch the point over using my NCE power cab it shorts out,so that means pulling the wires back to scratch. Ha well its all the joys of modelling.
Noooo, how annoying, hope you get it sorted. Got to admit electrics is the bit I fear the most, which is probably why I haven't attempted lighting buildings etc. yet.
Points clips are a hornby part. It's literally a small clip like a large thin staple that makes contact on all tracks on a point. So everything is permanently electrified regardless of points direction.
+Gary Stevens Ah I think I get it now. With the n gauge peco points (code 55 electrofrog are the ones I have) the point is already electrified, so you don't need clips. However its relying on the point blade touching the rail to get its power, so if there is a spec of dust, it loses power. Powering the frog from the point motor means the point is more reliable as you no longer rely on the point blade contact, so you don't have to constantly clean them. It may not be such a big problem in OO gauge as the contacts will be bigger.
We tried this system for installing Hornby points. Drilling a largish hole in the baseboard was no problem - but lining up the motor for correct throw, then accurately positioning and drilling for the two screws was a right pig while lying under the baseboard! It took many hours of swearing . . .
For the next motor, we are going to try your tip of holding the motor in place with Blu-Tak before screwing.
Why on the hell do these "4 gang" point decoder boards need you to provide DCC bus power to each one individually ? Surely the board should have its own internal bus to transfer that power to all 4 modules, saving a whole bunch of totally unnecessary wiring
for pretty much the same reason you don't control all the lights in your house with a single switch. You apply power to the units only if they are needed. Otherwise they can sit idle
What about a crossover,,will one decoder switch 2 point motors,,Or do you have to have 2 addresses,,
t147han I tried wiring 2 point motors in to 1 decoder and it didn't work for me. Neither of them moved! The way I would do it is 2 decoders, 2 addresses and link them together in the DCC controller software, which I think you can do in Horny Railmaster or the z21 app (I'm sure the others like the esu eCos etc. can do it too).
I cant seem to find the accessory decoder you are using, is it possible for you to provide a link? Thanks
I don't think they make that one nowadays, looks like this is the equivalent - www.dcctrainautomation.co.uk/dcc-concepts-dcd-ads-8sx-accessory-decoder-cdu-solenoid-drive-sx-8-way.html
Have you done phase 2 yet? I couldn't find it!
+Gary Stevens Kind of, it never really made it into 1 specific video, but when I got the Hornby e-link I had all the points controlled by that (and I now use the Roco z21 to do the same).
very good, clear and concise as it could be.
off topic, are you going to insulate your shed? unless you nearer the equator than I do you're going to freeze your wotsits off come december. and your layout's going to get damp
It's not insulated yet but it is on the to-do list. Planning a new layout around the edge of the walls, so it will have to be done before I start that.
Well explained
Where does the dcc bus run to from your controller？
It goes through a hole in the front beam of the base board and under the layout to feed the dropper wires that power the track.
hi what voltage did you use to run the point motors please ?
Hi Simon please can you tell me where I can purchase the AD S8 DCC decoders from also have you any tips on how I can control my signals when I change points thanks Rob
Don't know if this will let me post a URL - www.ehattons.com/60673/DCC_Concepts_DCD_ADS8_Solenoid_accessory_decoder_8_way_/StockDetail.aspx - but they have them on ehattons, if you type DCD-ADS8 in the search box they come up. Not sure about controlling signals but there are different outputs on each of the 8 decoder "ports" e.g. for a burst or continuous so there should be a way to get a point and signal controlled by the same port of the decoder.
can I have switches on a point motor with my dcc layout?(instead of buying a decoder)?
56scaniaboy Yes you can. Even if the layout is DCC there is nothing stopping you controlling the point motors with real/physical switches. I don't know exactly how you wire it up though, as I've only done DCC controlled points. Interestingly the ADS8 in this video can take 3 additional wires which can go to a switch, so you can have both wired up and chose whether you use DCC or switch control.
I want just manual switches thanks
Hi Simon just a quick question why elctrofrog and not insulfrog
I think it was because I'd decided I wanted to use code 55 track, and I couldn't find code 55 insulfrog turnouts, so the choice was made for me.
What did you control the points with in the end?
I use the Roco z21 👍
Hi Simon,did you have to cut the point ans solder across the two bars?
No I just used them as they came. I remember reading something about having to cut and solder but I don't think you need to on the newer points.
Simons Shed OK Simon your set up will be different to mine have the nce power cab I have a few things on face book dcc models.
Simon how do you get the point motor to stick under board before you screw it on ?
Raymond Hinks With great difficulty :-) If I remember rightly I ended up holding it in place with blu-tack to mark the holes, then drilling and screwing 1 hole, and then double checking the position and alignment (really important to make sure the point motor "throw" is correct, i.e. it throws the pin past the centre point far enough both directions, otherwise the frog won't be powered) and finally drilling and securing the last screw.
Like you say typing in the points to the select controller seems fiddly estate especially on a layout running several locomotives + I have 20 odd sets of points, do I'm going to run them from the dc on sn old fashioned hornby tri ang controller. So will be independent from the select. Why don't you just use points clips instead of all the electrifying a frog business?
+Gary Stevens Not sure you mean by points clips, the frog needs to change polarity when the point changes over or everything will short-out.
2 clips are used per point.
Simon, I've just installed 23 SEEP point motors with electro frog but not DCC. Wish I had seen your video first! Here is a video I made showing my experiences. Not quite as technical as yours. Regards, John.
th-cam.com/video/yIUhxqhv_U0/w-d-xo.html
U can flux it before you solder it
AD-S8 IS NOW £95!
DCC a wonderful concept still unfortunately fundamentally flawed. As DCC was invented by an Electrical Engineer in the early 1980's, who had no understanding of railways. He simply created a commercially attractive solution to the major area of resistance preventing model railways becoming a mainstream hobby - i.e the electronics involved.
As a result NO provision was made for the most important aspect of real railways, which is the physical inter-action between train movement and signalling. Quite the contrary. DCC has no option but to replace the traditional 12v DC in the rails, with 16v AC, as only AC (Alternating Current) can carry messages between the controller and the train or accessory "chips". In other words you can now move numerous trains simultaneously in any direction you like and even have head on crashes, which goes against the most fundamental safety rules of the real railway. 12v DC wired layouts won't allow head on crashes simply because DC ensures all locomotives go in the same direction, so it does at least start by complying with one of the most important real life safety rules - to prevent head on crashes.
There are a number of manufacturers who provide DCC accessory chips that will operate signals. But it is impossible for these "signal controlling chips" to actually operate the signals in a real life manner. Why? Because these "signal controlling chips" cannot know what track layout you have, or detect the presence of trains in relation to the position of ALL the relevant signals. Signals in real life are inter-linked either mechanically (semaphore signals) or electrically (colour light signals). Why?. Because train drivers need warning signals usually a mile or so in advance of any red, or it will be impossible to stop a train in time.
This problem of inter-facing the trains to the signals in a realistic manner using a Digital system, was soon recognised. But the solution is that computers are now needed along with a comprehensive understanding of both electronics, and real life signalling. This of course defeats the simplicity of DCC and increases the costs still further. It should be added that commercial DCC is itself between 100% and 300% more expensive than traditional 12v DC wiring methods.
Realistically the only way to construct a true model railway as opposed to a toy train set, is to have signalling that works in a real life manner. The only way to do this is to have real life type "track circuits" which provide the inter-face between train and signals. The only way to do all this cheaply is to use a 12v DC system. As 12v DC has the advantage due to its electrical nature of accommodating two separate supplies in the rails (one to move the trains and the other for the track circuits) without creating an electrical short circuit !
The bottom line therefore is that while DCC may seem attractive (although more expensive) it simply prevents a recreation of a real railway in miniature due to its serious technical short comings.
Another misnomer is that the word "Analogue" implies only one alternative. This is of course nonsense. One of the main advantages of using 12v DC is that you can choose from an infinite number of methods to wire your own layout, and tailor the wiring to suit the peculiarities of your layout. Unlike DCC which due to its international standardisation, is locked in stone !!!
Looks daunting to me tbh 😆 I'm not looking forward to this part