One of the arguments that grates me, is that Joel was made dumber because he spent 5 years in the safety of Jackson so lost his survival skills. Yet there are so many examples in TLOU2's flashbacks where he is still doing dangerous tasks.
@@FemboyKaiSakuwhat are you talking about Joel also said his name when he stood in the middle of the room not just Tommy. Abby knew but as soon as Joel said his name everyone else knew
@@AALion2004 so joel should just lie even though abby already knows he is joel, how is that gonna help xd and again he probably got more careless he is enjoying life. He is spending less time killing people, less time surviving. That's just how it is, its not an unrealistic change so yall need to stop acting like its a flaw in the writing
@@FemboyKaiSaku it's just lazy writing Joel was literally cautious and cold when he was with Sarah at the intro of the game and she was ALIVE and Joel was still acting this way there's no excuse for him or Tommy just spilling the beans for Abby so this way Joel can die and Everyome else in the room was armed except for Joel and Tommy theres literal proof of this because Tommy didn't pull out his gun when Joel was shot and Joel didn't have his backpack or weapon on him they literally set themselves up perfectly so abby can get the jump on them
"They don't understand the classics because they're to busy destorying them and tearring down not only what made them good in the first place, but what made their own series good." This is the best way someone can say what is wrong with modern Western media.
You pointed out something significant: that Ellie, after all this time, has no idea why Abby hates Joel so much. Somehow the writers deemed fit for the entire story to elude her. To this day, Ellie still doesn't reconsider Joel's position as a father, and being a parent herself at the farm, doesn't stop to consider if she would sacrifice her kid to save the world. Ellie still has no idea of Abby's connection to her potential killer either. How can the game sanctimoniously tell us what to think when the puzzle pieces aren't satisfactorily assembled?
While I agree w the rest of what you mentioned, I believe Ellie knows why Abby hates Joel bc she tortured Nora into talking. What I don't understand with the writing though is why Ellie says "I'm the one that you want. There's no cure because of me." cause that makes me inclined to believe that Nora didn't specify that the doctor was Abby's dad. And that's such a crucial point that I don't understand why Nora wouldn't tell Ellie that? 😂 Idk. I just feel like Neil is just bad at understanding how humans work. And I became fully convinced of that when I heard about his interpretation of the first game's ending 😂
Do it yourself. In its own twisted way conflict hate led to these characters to try destroying each other. The WLF and Scars weaken each other to making shells of their respective people's numbers. Ellie and Abby almost killed each other with Ellie putting a knife to a small boy's throat to force a fight oddly enough if Ellie didn't chase after them Abby would be at that beach dead, the irony.
@@asavelakuse6865i think that what they meaned is that they were many points that could impact story more which would make ending and whole dynamic between ellie and abby more personal than what we got cause at the state we were left they are strangers that killed some of their people and thats it if we could see how they acquire more informations then the ending would make a lot more sense like how abby would decide to let ellie and dina go even though ellie killed her people and how ellie stoped herself from killing abby after all these ncps she had no remorse killing addressing these things would only make story better as the message that game tried to deliver
@@taeminisloveI think she said that “I’m the one that you want” line to maintain the reveal later. At that point in the story the player doesn’t know the reason that Abby pursued Joel. You can say that’s bad writing or Neil not understanding people but I don’t think it’s really that serious. I find nearly all of the arguments against the story so tiring and nitpicking to be honest.
I refused to think joel would turn that stupid to put himself in that position to be killed by someone with so much plot armor. They had to dumb down joel to give abby a chance
@@TheShuckmeister imagine picking up a book & thinking you're Socrates level of Intelligence, then sprinkle in the actual essence of your intelligence that's superficial based of variables of factors i.e independent critical/analytical thinking skills & a comprehensive outlook onto different perspectives. pure pseudo-intellectualism.
imagine picking up a book & thinking you're Socrates level of Intelligence, then sprinkle in the actual essence of your intelligence that's superficial based of variables of factors i.e independent critical/analytical thinking skills & a comprehensive outlook onto different perspectives. pure pseudo-intellectualism.@@TheShuckmeister
@@TheShuckmeisterdisclaimer: since I already dissected another superficial TH-camrs video trying to 'fix' TLOU2s story but got shadowbanned because I was 'picking fights' with other ppl, I have to know if you'll shadowban me if I'll dissect your response especially going against other superficial, conformist & indoctrinated/polarized Humans in this comment section but I'll be mindful & skip/ignore any person in the comments who raise points in addition or contribution to this video. so will you or not?
Abby's side of the story fails for one very glaring reason: she was originally intended to be a clear villain, and hunting her down & killing her was supposed to be extra satisfying by making her extra sadistic & irredeemable by her torturing Joel to death. After he saves her life. Leaving aside the idiocy of the set-up, the excruciatingly sadistic murder ruins her redemption arc. If she'd been an executioner, instead of an unhinged torturer, they might have been able to make her sympathetic, but changing the goal of the story during development, without changing her shocking villain introduction to match, completely undermines any hope the writers had of pulling off the "sympathy for the devil" goal. The blatant attempt to replace the Joel/Ellie dynamic with an Abby/Lev one was doomed before it began, because of how Abby was introduced. It'd be like watching "I Spit On Your Grave", where the woman finishes the movie by walking away from the ringleader of her attackers, after killing dozens of NPC's to get to him. It's such a sad waste, especially when compared to the first game.
This might be more of a case of author/audience moral dissonance. See, the author didn't keep firing testers simply for not liking Abby or remove the ending QTE where players would choke Abby because he intended her to be the villain. The contrary: He was hoping people would be cheering she replaced Joel and Ellie, and want more Abby-centric features in the franchise because she's finally how Neil Druckmann would have written Joel in TLOU1 if he got his way the first time. However, what he considers to be the qualities of a good person are. . . Well, in real life he helped fire people for going to HR when they were sexually harassed and/or assaulted by ex-Naughty Dog MP dev Robert Cogburn, so it's clearly not something you nor anyone who's a functional member of society would consider to be a good person. So you have a genuinely evil person, writing a story about a hero that fits their ideals. As the Japanese IGN reviewer for TLOU2 said: "It's a game about right and wrong, written by people who think they're always right."
@@crazyinsane500 IIRC there were a lot of rumours about Druckmann back when TLOU2 was in production. Basically he was a hard-core debbie downer; apparently he pushed very hard for a bad end to Uncharted 4 as well as TLOU but didn't have the influence to get what he wanted. When he got the chance to write something I'm not surprised that he would come up with Abby.
@@Slashy-VR no, the story is about letting go and understanding other perspectives. Yes it has revenge theme driving the plot, but thats not what the story itself is about
@@FemboyKaiSakuexcept one side makes no effort to let go and understand the other in Part II. Abby never makes an effort to let go and understand Joel’s/Ellie’s perspective.
Imagine if Joel had died one day from a stray bullet or an unseen marksman one day, completely out of the blue, like Achilles. And instead of fueling Ellie's rage, made her see how pointless death could actually be and how precious life was. It could have spurred the story in an interesting, almost Walking Dead esqe direction where Ellie is a lot more compassionate.
Yeah the randomness of death was reserved for characters like Jesse in the story but they aren’t given time to grieve for it. Abby is more of a Paris figure because she’s so tied to Joel
Almost reminds me of how Sean dies in RDR2. Doesn’t even get to finish his sentence on how it feels off before getting a massive chunk of his face ripped out by a sniper. It was brutal, but worked really well
Great to finally see a consistently critical, well articulated take on the game basically without sugarcoating and being apologetic Just about any other critical take I've seen on the game had to shamelessly include or force some positive segment, like "but the gameplay is phenomenal" (which I disagree with) or "but this is just my subjective take..." or "but this is just my opinion" or "the HBO show is amazing" and you get the point... always something. At least half the playerbase has endlessly praised the game since release and it's been critically acclaimed since its launch, so it's been and will always be fine on its own without always needing a defense unit.
Yeah I don’t really pull punches too much. I just talk about where ideas could have gone but didn’t because of writing decisions. I also don’t think I was too harsh or abrasive with this video so it should be a good watch for everyone!
I'm going to be honest. I don't think the HBO show was that good but that's because I feel like the show just completely misunderstood Joel and Ellie as characters and yet the show seems to be loved because it's one of the few video game adaptations to at least hit the major plot points right. Still had good stuff in it though but I don't think it's the slam dunk that it's been touted as being.
There was a video I saw where a streamer literally fixed the game by making you play as Joel and travel with Tommy to find Ellie. And you switch back and forth to also play as Ellie traveling with Abby to to find Abby's group or something - - I can't fully remember. Like tlou, you play as a character you love (Joel and Ellie) while learning to like a new character (Abby) with the protagonist (in this case Ellie). I wish I could remember the video but hearing his explanation sounded 10000 times better compared to what we actually got
2:10 What do you mean The Iliad (8th century BC) is the oldest story ever put to page? What about The Epic of Gilgamesh (c. 2100-1200 BC) and the Papyrus of Ani (c. 1240 BC)?
I’m actually reading Gilgamesh right now and I stand by the “to page” comment considering Gilgamesh was on stone tablet. A little bit of a technicality but ehh. I haven’t heard of the Papyrus of Ani until now so I would have to look into that.
strange how I was thinking about this game for the first time in years earlier this month, completely unmediated too, my brain just said "hey, remember this?"
ASOIAF occasionally focuses on what happened or still is happening to certain very minor characters that sometimes only get one or two name drops throughout the story and then never again.
One thing I don't understand about the NPC name gimmick is why other enemies behaviors don't change when they notice their friends are dead. They don't get any more violent or desperate, and I think it's a missed opportunity. Like seriously, Bungie had enemies that changed behaviors like that way back in 2007. In Halo 3, Brutes had a chance to enter berserker mode as they saw their troops die, and Hunters became more vicious when you killed their bond brother. Surely Naughty Dog could have programmed something like that in their more modern game, right?
I think that feature was in Halo 1 even, it for sure was with Halo 2 with the little manual you get with the game saying that Elite ranks are designated by Color so if you shot high-ranking Elites, Grunts would be demoralized. But there is the real risk they couldn't have programmed something like that. Neil Druckmann was doing his best to ruin production and when people weren't quitting, they were being fired for things as petty as not liking "certain characters" (IE Abby) according to Jason Schreier.
It's more than most action games do. It's only meant to be a small addition, no more, no less. Don't take a small positive and turn it into a big negative, it just makes the thing worse for yourself.
@bean6228 wait, are we saying the names gimmick in Last of Us 2 is a positive thing? Because it wasn't for me. For me it was a failed emotional manipulation trick that contributed to my ludonarrative dissonance lol.
It probably has something to do with that ludonarritive dissonance thing people keep talking about. Also, how do you make a game where the main character refuses to partake in violence? Might make a decent walking simulator, at best.
The Last Of Us didn't need a sequel, but if therewas no choice but to make 1, than it should't have been a revenge story and instead be a story about tieing up loose ends. I mean, we still don't know how and why the coriceps virus came into existence, we don't know why and how Ellie is the only immune character and who Ellie's blood parents were/are. Yes, the tv show does awnser those questions, but those awnsers are lame and I don't believe that you should put those awnsers in a completely diffrent medium if you want to inform your costumers.
Yeah at the end of the day it didn’t need a sequel. But if they were, a story about a secondary character could have some potential if handled well (I know most series don’t, but the Odyssey does that with Odysseus)
But it is a story about tying up loose ends. The end of lou1 was a loose end. Joel lied about robbing Ellie of her life purpose. In the second game she uncovers everything and resents him. After years of ignoring him he's suddenly killed and she goes on a misguided revenge mission because of her guilt. That's all A LOT more interesting then just telling us how the virus came to be or explaining why Ellie is immune. It's pretty obvious that cordiaceps just evolved to infect humans and Ellies immunity is likely another biological anomaly. Ultimately the zombie stuff isnt anywhere near as important as the human drama, never was.
I like this video. It was very well done. If only Neil could find this video and understand you. But in this day and sge even if he does see it i don't think he'd even try to understand
Never forget that amazing people like Amy Hennig were pushed out of ND by a talentless hack like Neil. I am really enjoying the Soul Reaver remasters atm.
I think Neil was talented at one point, and maybe still is. But after getting hooked on Anita Sarkessian he became way to radical to write with any measure of nuance beyond what he agrees with. A pitfall many a talented writer falls into
Talking about the reversal of narrative between Homer's works and TLOU stood out to me because I remember thinking after finishing Part II: "if this game came out first, and the original was a prequel then this might not be so abrasive, but this is awful as a follow-up game"
It could've worked though! Fuckman just an idiot who wanted to prove he was so great he could ignore writing rules. He wanted to make you hate Abbi from the jump and make you love her by the end but he just refuses to give her any real humanizing qualities pretty much at all and then kills Joel. Killing Joel can work, despite how unlikely it was the Fireflys' could've made a cure or effectively used it, Abbi had more than enough to good reasons to swear revenge. She just... Didn't have a reason to not be considered a villain in the end. Because Druckman wanted to make a point not write a character.
@@S-tremeThey will forever tout that anyone who didn’t end up liking her by the end of the game just ”didn’t get it”, and that we’re just salty Joel died. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The themes aren’t rocket science to understand. And his death simply HAD to be handled with more care.
@@S-tremethey looked at Abby playing with the dog and instantly switch to her team it's crazy how easily those fans were manipulated to defend a terrible person
This video just seems like an excuse to geek out over an old story. Hard to say there are any parallels to the game because the writers clearly didn't refer to any similar stories to make this one better. It's a revenge story with no clear direction.
In my opinion abbys campaign was mostly bloat, getting medicine for levs sister just for her to die is the biggest waste of time that takes add extra 6 hrs to the game
one thing I've never seen anyone brought up yet is when Mel got killed, that's the only scene that she wears a jacket, so her belly isn't shown to Ellie. They had to find some ways to get Ellie to kill Mel, Such a manipulative writing.
That whole scene is a mess. 1) it's only been a few weeks since Joel's death yet for some reason Mel who just learned she was pregnant then looks 9 months in 2)at every other point she never covers it up 3)they have Ellie not use her position of power to ensure she keeps it by having Mel restrain Owen so that Ellie can then restrain her. Instead Ellie allows Owen to close the distance and try and grab the gun 4) at no point do they announce she's pregnant! 5) Ellie's so shocked by what she's done she drops the map that has her base of operations circled on it for Abby to find. Neil forced the hell out of this scene to get exactly what he wanted without considering how these people would actually act in this situation.
@ yep. The fans only focus on the big message and thinks it’s so deep and smart. Anyone who can think for themselves will never get immersed because of all these little writing errors would take them out of the game.
I'm genuinely curious if the game was banned in certain middle-Eastern countries with how over-the-top and cartoonish the Jewish representation is. Anyway, it's nice that we are finally be able to put into words what we instinctively felt to be one of the most incompetently told stories of all time.
Thanks a lot now I have to read the Iliad. I already have a backlog of books to read. I think the main difference between the two is that we have reason to care about Troy and Greece before the conflict. Paris is not the greatest person, but the Trojans had no part in his folly. We also know how bad Greeks have it with the capricious nature of the Gods. In TLOU 2 we're expected to empathize with the WLF after seeing their atrocities. Then at the end Ellie chickens out as if she couldn't have that revelation 200 murders earlier. Billy was just defending his village before she slit his throat.
I don’t understand how a game company can go on and develop a game for years before bulletproofing the story, or at least revise it with actual writers.
Really? Moving away from single player games? I'm starting to think it's part of the human condition to grow disillusioned with whatever he has at had. I'm all but done with multi-player (perhaps because I've been too focused on competitive multi-player games) but I just yearn and enjoy single player games way more now.
@1:35 When exactly did Naughty Dog “remove its own stylised design?” Are you talking about Jak and Daxter? Because the footage used makes it look like you’re claiming TLoU1 was stylised… which it definitely wasn’t.
I've always wondered if the people who didn't like this game think that it is objectively bad and not that its just their opinion because it always sounds like they do. Genuine question.
The game is a 8 or better out of 10. It looks beautiful plays smoothly on 10 year old hardware. The game is constructed well from the code stand point. The story is objectively bad. And disheartening that so many people think this game is saying something profound.
This game story was so dumb the only thing likable about it is the gameplay and seeing fanboys defend it is wild and Joel death we all excepted him to die but to see him die due to him trusting a whole group of strangers which he never did is insane.
I’m glad you disagree but like the video. That’s the best part of the internet. I find myself having the same opinion listening to other people’s opinions on the subject
To be honest, The Last of Us Part 1 should of have been a stand alone Story, that's it, leaving the ending 5 inches open, cuz it was Perfect. But Neil Drunkman came and destroyed the franchise with his forced egoism and bad writting about "Revenge", is not actually Last of Us anymore, is more of a Revenge K11ling spree that's it with a dumb ending that leads to nothing while everything that has been done to get there was for nothing as well. Neil can keep blabling excuses and blabling about everyone hating the game and all, but the fact is that he failed as a director and a writter due his ego and egoism & does not want to admit it cuz he knows he scr3w up big time, hell even he though he was important in a red carpet and everyone ignores him😂, serves him right, now he is making a Woke game that is gonna flop and he is gonna blame everyone else due his ego and not blame himself.
@@swamidesperado8075 I don't think someone like him would bother watching an actually insightful video essay on the game. Tlou explained is great though, she picked up on aspects of the story that I hadn't even considered before.
@@johngrizismost people who hate tlou 2 don’t care about insightful analyses in general. They just want to blindly hate on a game that’s currently popular to hate.
@@ZeDitto3 bro this is literally talking about the Iliad which is a very long book. The quote was, “too long to make the point they were trying to make.”
First of all, i'm amazed at the number of literary critics we have amassed here in TH-cam. The next ''Gravity's rainbow'' is by the corner if we go by the talent exhibited in analysis. I wonder when your first book drops since you seem to possess such a treasure of knowledge and talent ofc ofc. Just a small note on your point on Ellie's and Abby's last scene. A video game is a visual interactive medium you don't necesarily need dialogue to convey that Ellie doesn't kill Abby so '' she can protect Joel's image in her mind''. If you play the last chapter and just by taking a look at her and her flashback you can tell she's at a breaking point and that her next action can define her, in a negative or a positive way. Also there's no ludonarrative dissonace, just because she has killed a lot of people it doesn't mean she has to kill Abby. Also, again, it's a videogame you re the one that chooses the approach of Ellies combat. Stealthy with minimal casualties or head on and brutal. Also i really wonder how many commenters here that decry the destruction of Iliad by the ''subversive'' modern writers have even read it. Don't let us waiting on your work that will rival the classics ofc ofc.
I disagree with most of the video. The more I try to see the Israeli politics in the game the more I shy away from it, especially knowing all the dialogues of both sides, the game tries really hard to level all with ambiguity, and does a good job on that part. When Yara says stuff like, They distorted the prophet writings, or Danny wanting Owen to kill people just because the other side isn't human to him anymore due to the WLF propaganda. Civil War is a great movie about that. I think the setup for Joel death could be different, felt convenient(Thommy giving away Jackson like it doesn't matter, like wtf we're just going to trust these people out of nowhere?) but also convincing enough (contradictory, I know). I also love the way Abby say she was really lucky to find Joel, and l immediately paired with Tess phrase "Our luck had to run out, sooner or later" If the games were switched out of order, it would be really interesting, the Part 1 as a prequel to Joel and Ellie's story. Then would always be a story about parallels from the beginning And reading the comments I realize we never really see the outcome about what Joel did, we never really see people struggling because there's no cure, We never see a character dying from infection, specially from Ellie's perspective, would add to her struggle to forgive Joel.
Highly curious decision given current circumstances. And it won all the awards on top of everything. Very interested to see how the show does it for season 2
Why are we even comparing classics to mediocrities like TLoU2? It's simple: TLoU2's story is a contrived presentation of a revenge story full of plot conveniences and deus ex machinas with a little bit of emotional manipulation.
Except God of War made it good, because Kratos completed his revenge but didn't change anything, so if anyone who should say vengeance will bring no peace is him.
0:41 Honestly, I think it's one of the most overrated "games" of all time. Like the story and performance are really good. But the game side of it doesn't really do anything special or that innovative. That doesn't mean I dislike the game, but it's just one of the first "movie" games where the cinematic story was prioritised over the game side. Nowhere near as egregious as say MGS IV with the gameplay to cinematic ratio. But I've recently been playing through days gone. It is such a wet noodle of a game that the shooting is fine, the driving is okay, and the survival mechanics just feel tedious. The detective mode is just tacked on. I feel because it's trying so hard to be like the Last of Us. It like TLoU puts all of its eggs in the story, cinematic, and character basket. If that doesn't land like TLoU did, it's seen as a very flat game. 6:52 Not sure I see it yet. The 1 game to the second had very different writing teams and different goals set by the project leads. This being Amy henning and Neil Druckman. Neil's primary goal was to subvert expectations and create a more diverse cast and protagonist. Pretty sure he said as much in interviews. I think your letting yourself runaway with the homer thing a bit to much. Like it's on the brain and you want it to fit. Because alot of these things are tropes. You don't necessarily need to know the illyad or homes work to emulate a similar plot device or structure. Because it's been used in so many places else where. 7:54 Oh it ain't that deep plenty of games yell out stuff when people die. But in this case the Devs said its to make you think those nameless npcs had a name, don't you feel bad they had a story too. When they didn't. 17:17 So everytime someone's village gets burned to the ground or raided and pillaged or is destroyed in a war I neeed to say oh look that's exclusively homer?
You want me to believe you're a media literate, well read, free-thinker, and you actually project pretention, a propensity toward conformity, and susceptibility to propaganda. Perhaps the strongest example of this is the pat on the back you give yourself for reading and "appreciating" classic literature. Many people appreciate the legacy, and artistic merit of classic literature. What is readily apparent to me is that you uncritically praise classic literature for the same reason you uncritically deride The Last of Us Part 2. Because you think you're supposed to. Not because you have anything to say. The imaginary thread you draw between these games and Homer's epics is something you think you're supposed to do as an essayist, and an intellectual. You read the Iliad, you've got it on the brain, and now you're seeing it everywhere. Most of your criticisms of the game are vague references to Reddit posts you read on a confirmation bias bender, that you regurgitate back into the mouths of your audience of similarly uncritical chickies. None of this is actually coherent.
@@futurestoryteller beautifully put. People like this are why most games are boring and uninspired. None of these people care about the actual plot of tlou 1 or 2 (most of them haven’t played either game). What they care about is the meta-narrative surrounding the game. It’s currently trendy to hate tlou 2, so that’s what most people automatically default to. I hope to god that druckman doesn’t change the plot of part 3 in an attempt to appeal to these people.
@@Car-qu2bc I don't know if it's true that most of them have played _neither_ game. Having said that, trying to listen to this made my head swirl. I'm not convinced the script wasn't generated by prompt. Which would make make posting a video like this easy, in lieu of any experience with each source material, but especially Homer's materials. Which are pretty long. I didn't mention this in my original post, because it was already quite long itself, and Google's AI-friendly algorithm seems to take virtually all insinuations as abusive. It just never sounds like there's any actual thought behind the words. If I assumed a person wrote it I would have to be concerned for that person's neurological health.
I just really can't agree with this video I'm sorry I've heard the same ol Schick over and over again for Part 2 and this is from someone who has problems with it but this was never one of them
Gilgamesh (which I am reading right now) was carved into stone tablets while the Iliad was written on papyrus. A bit of a technicality but I was pretty precise with my wording
Both games were written and directed by Neil Druckmann, in the second game he had a co-writer Halley Gross. The killing of Joel gives him a similar role as Sarah has for Joel. Ellie ''gives up' because killing her is not worth it in the end and would not heal her pain. In the end like The Count of Monte Cristo, revenge destroys everything that is dear to Ellie, her obsession, she looses her loved one, her family, and even the ability to play guitar, one of the clearest symbols of Joel. The game according to Niel explores how we humans in the name of justice and dealing with trauma commit horrid violent acts, how tribalism and pride fuel dehumanization. I feel like you should have done more research on the influences rather than go into assumptions. Influences to the Last of Us 2 include Druckmann's own experience of growing up in Israel and the conflict in the area, the Ramallah lynching was one of the moments of history that influenced him Metal Gear Solid 2, the Paradise lost documentary film series, Dave Grossman's book On Killing, the British tv show The End of the F***ing World include other influences etc. The Iliad from what I have read does not seem to have been one of the main influences for the game.
I don’t think I expressly said that the Iliad was a direct influence on this game specifically but you can see elements of it in this story and more so in the other works you mentioned. There does seem to be a “watering down” of tropes that worked for the Iliad but don’t for this story which is the main point I was trying to get across
At this point, you either get the message of the last of us part 2 or you don’t and that’s okay. The story is not for everyone and you get something out of it each time you visit it. That’s what makes great art. I hope you see the greatness in this game someday. It’s not perfect whatsoever, but it is a masterpiece
Like it and take whatever you want from it. But it is an objectively poorly written story. And only a masterpiece as an example of what not to do in these types of narratives.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr just because you don’t like the execution of a story doesn’t make it bad. All three are masterpieces in their own right. You connected more with one piece and that’s great!
Im not really sure what is the point? I mean as an artist i see modern art as "nothing will be original anymore, everything has been done already and its not a bad thing". What happens is that the new pieces of art (music, dance, movies, storytelling, etc.) is just a collage of different influences from different eras. I dont think TLOU 2 is a masterpiece, has misses here and there but if we just compare one modern thing to something classic or really old obviously its not going to make sense. Modern creations have influences from too many different eras, different points of view, different ways to say o tell a story. However i do really enjoy pieces of art that a lot of people hate and a lot of people love. That's when you know there is something worth to check out
The clarify, the point was to express elements of the classics and why they worked (hence the name “classics”) versus how modern writing makes poor decisions that subvert them. This game has all the cultural relevance of the Shape of Water when it could have been so much more with better writing.
I think I would take your criticisms seriously if you people held Part 1 to the same standards as Part 2 Joel had the most insane plot armor in storytelling history and nobody complained because it’s daddy Joel. His bitch ass got what he deserved. He got what he had coming to him. His plot armor ran out and Abby, Lev, and Ellie received it. If Part 2 is deemed poorly written for arbitrary reasons then Part 1 should also get hated on. I think the story has pacing issues but it’s still a masterpiece.
I have many disagreements with your take on this game but the most significant one to me was your understanding of the final fight between Ellie and Abby. Her deciding to not kill her wasn't just because it "wasn't worth it", she did it to break the cycle of violence and to forgive. She realized killing her would not fix anything, so she lets her live. Also, saying the scene is "underwhelming" is kind of what the whole game is critiquing. One should not come out of this game thinking that what happened throughout the whole thing was right and that Ellie not finalizing here revenge on Abby was a bad ending. It should be relieving that she breaks the cycle, not underwhelming...
@@spoof00101 I don’t believe I said she should have finalized the revenge, and I think you and I have very different takes on what it means to “forgive.” I do not think Ellie forgave Abby in the end. Nothing about the dialogue makes that clear. If anything, Ellie is back to letting go after she killed Owen and Mel, letting Abby live with that loss and being content
@@TheShuckmeister Why do you need dialogue to say that someone forgives? Does the releasing of squeezing someone's neck underwater that was going to kill them not mean she forgives or at least is no more into the idea of killing her for revenge? Also, she's not "content" with having killed Owen, Mel and others in her way, she's in fact discontent with what she's done and might be haunted from it for a while. Saying it's "underwhelming" because it's a revenge story where the revenge doesn't actually happen is quite a conservative way to look at stories.
There is one thing. (Personally I see what you mean, as I often read mythologies and I can see your point). But when you said the writers were incompetent and did not know what they were doing. Sadly you are mistaken. When they said the theme of the game was hate. You have no idea how literal they are. Because as shocking as it is, a lot of the people and even the director himself hated not only the game, but also Joel and its fans. This is why he was destroyed and why the game is the way it is. The hate they felt was literally sown into the very fabric of the game. The director admitted it when people began to ask why he killed Joel in such a way for no reason. He admitted that he hated Joel because he was a “white male” and hated the game cause it had a white heroic male lead. Wanted to get rid of him to “fix the game”… this is why when people began to complain about the game story and such he and others went threw a temper tantrum over people hating the game because Abby is trans or something and fans were just phobic when the criticism had nothing to do with that. The theme was hate, because the people who were making it hated the product and like it said, the hatred bled through and ruined what would have been a good game story and game in general.
Good distinction, though with this video I tried to steer away from the nefarious motives of the director and only focus on the quality of storytelling compared to classic literature that uses many of the same techniques
Classic literature fans having a propaganda?!? Paint me shocked! This video was the biggest nothing burger I've ever seen-had you ONCE properly critiqued the game instead of making a useless, incoherent notion every time you got the chance to, I wouldn't have hated this video nearly as much. What's even funnier is The Last of Us 2 is far from being my favourite game, but the level of criticism this game has reached is simply pathetic.
Well , i replaying TLOU both of them in this year , and everyone loves to tell that TLOU 1 don't have flaws, but my god the game is long asfck and sometimes the story struggle to just continue , we as a audience and player think at that point that Joel is imortal because he survived at most bushilt situation ever, i honestly like more TLOU2 than 1 , the conflict and the pain is so more viceral than in 1.
Desperately trying to find parallels between The Last of Us series and Homer's works, you set yourself up for disappointment by assuming that either game is inspired by the Iliad or the Odyssey. And when you find inconsistencies between the two narrative worlds, you claim that modern writers are "betraying the classics" as if they had any intention of replicating them. It's all in your head homie. I can find parallels between The Last of Us Part 1 and the pixar movie Up, but that doesn't mean it was an inspiration, or that the game needs to follow those same narrative beats in order to succeed. There are tropes that began with Homer's works, but assuming that modern stories have to play by a certain set of rules just because the Iliad came first is naive and backwards. Not to mention that you did all of that to then make the same old complaints about the game that people made 4 years ago. Complaints that have been picked apart for years. Your criticisms aren't as special as you think they are.
I mistakenly thought his critique of the game was going to be somewhat in good faith, but I have fooled myself into thinking so. He's almost certainly concealed his hate of "wokeness" in art through pseudo-intellectualism.
@@miguels.b.2749 sorry dude, I'm not making a video just because you're mad. If you have an actual argument to make, believe it or not you can type it out right here.
@johngrizis I'm not mad. I'm just saying that he at least exposed his arguments correctly and even wanted to provide more information about other fictional works. While on the other hand fanboys of TLOU2 only have very few tools to their disposal: either they call you names and ist/phobe, they call you a Xbox fanboy or they just say you're being "condescending" or similar stuff. Believe it or not, that's not proving them (people being critical) wrong at any rate.
I think the story was good. Saying it was bad writing is a lie. Joel was trying to become a better person along the way in jackson. Ellie set up a clear boundary with him with Seth. All the artifacts are carrying a story of its own like Boris the arrow guy at hillcrest garage. No one can convince me that TLOU2 story was poorly written.
You said that Homer's epic painted nothing side synthetic to the readers. Well I would argue that naughty dog did not do that in this story. They paint ellie as a phsyicopath who by the end of the tale the player can't even side with ellie when she lets Abby go because she basically kills so many people im cold blood and gives up a perfect life for a shot of revenge. Its basically a slap in the face when she lets she hulk go. On the other hand they did everything they could you make you want to side with Abby.
Yeah for stories that try to both-sides a conflict, the Iliad is a great example of how to sympathize with both of them. But it would need someone like Isaac to be the villain on the story
I still dont see a reason to hate this game that much its not that much worse than the first and it improves in a lot of areas in terms of gameplay. I always felt tlou got way too much praise for just its story when story isnt all a game should be. Mostly i just hate the toxic discourse around this series There are far better franchises and games there are far better games made by ND anyways i feel. And in terms of story at least RDR1/2 achieve that same level of storytelling while actually offering more in terms of gameplay whereas TLOU never really has
While this was an interesting watch. I think TLOU2 is one of the greatest games of all time. Everyone’s motivation does make sense. The death scenes all have a quick and unsatisfying vibe to them because that usually what death is. It’s instantaneous and there are usually no goodbyes. The game also uses its mechanics to enhance the story. (The sniper mission being the best example). The main talking point that divides so many people is the fact that the story lives and dies on whether you can empathise with Abby. And that usually boils down to how much you liked Joel. For me while he was a great character he was also a piece of shit who even taking the final mission out, admitted to killing a whole bunch of innocent people. Plus while it’s true that many people hated it, many loved it. It won so many awards including a lot of public voting awards. And came second in the game awards public vote narrowly beaten by GOT. I think if a product is this heavily debated and dissected years after its release means that they had to have done something right.
It's like, Madden. Madden makes a lot of money so clearly they did something right... The same thing applies to things that are divisive. I mean Madden is quite divisive as well, so they did at least two things right.
No the only way for anything to make sense is to turn Joel stupid and get rid of his entire character. Then give Abby a incredible amount of plot armor to have her succeed with pitiful pandering to emotions. The voting you speak of was obvious heavily underhanded to the game's favor.
@@Balbaneth I never got the argument about Joel acting stupid. 1: Joel saved Abby because he was trying to change as a person. Ellie changed him. 2: It was Tommy not Joel who gave away their names, who’s always been the more trusting of the two. 3: The two had to follow Abby since they were surrounded by infected and needed a place to stay. Yes Abby gives in to her emotions over logic a lot of times. You know why? She’s a flawed character. She makes mistakes and either intentionally or unintentionally hurts people. People have been yelling for years about female protagonists being Mary Sue’s. Now here’s one with undeniable flaws, and people still complain. Also Abby has no more plot armour than an average video game protagonist. In terms of the vote. What does that even mean dude?
@@TheAniSiTommy giving away names is also out of character, you know that right?… knowing what he knows from the beginning of the game and what Joel has told tommy about what he did to save Ellie he’s VERY unlikely to do something like that lol it’s ridiculous man. You can’t make excuses for poor writing. Joels death was inevitable we all know that but the execution of it (although gruesome) was rushed and purely used as a plot device to start of the story and they don’t make it subtle whatsoever. People who recognized this flaw also recognized what they were trying to do with showing us Abby’s part of the story it’s a pathetic attempt at trying to gain sympathy from the audience, why? because they make it TOO obvious that’s what they’re trying to do! This whole “perspective” could’ve been presented in a much better structure
I think it’s quite telling that not a single point of the video was refuted. It’s okay if someone doesn’t like something you like. It’s okay is other stories do the narrative structure better.
I was going to dismiss your comment, but, after watching the video, I see you are right. He went into tangents about the doctor guy being a different skin tone and about how nowadays videogame stories aren't as good as one of the most famous and studied histories in the western canon (lmao) and therefore something something the west has fallen. Really disappointing
I can see why you think that but I really took my time going through the Iliad trying to understand it from multiple perspectives. This was the one that stuck with me the most. And making a vid about TLOU2 4 years later isn’t too reactionary haha. Also these videos are in production for a while hence the comment about Joker 2 which released months ago. I’ve been taking longer to make the videos so I hope the quality is better (despite being pretty busy)
I cannot disagree more with most of this video. If roles were reversed, Joel would absolutely be hated and many would believe he deserves this “unceremonious” death. Joel did some terrible things, and I don’t believe him saving Ellie was the right thing to do. But Joel is not someone who should die in a way that paints him in a bright light, he did that to other people within the first game. I think Abby having a similar story is done well, the only reason why people hate her is because she killed a main character. It’s very similar to Gabby from AOT. She’s another version of Eren and people hate her for killing a loved character but people refuse to see her point of view because they are either incels or blinded by the main cast that if the roles were reversed Eren is the literal villain. It’s even spelled out that what he’s doing is xenophobia and fans still love Eren because he’s a main character. People just refuse to admit that Joel kinda deserved what he got and won’t want to sympathetic with Abby.
So if we disagree with bad writing associated with Abby or even worse with Gabby, we’re incels? That’s a bit of an extreme take! I personally did not like the writing in the 4th season of AOT for very similar reasons. If you’re going to both-sides and issue, you need to do it tactfully and there is a template from classic literature that does this well, hence the purpose of this video.
@ I mean you can compare, but it has to be tangible, which this to me fails to do. I mean if not understanding why a character was written to begin with and claiming it to be bad because it hurt your feelings, I honestly don’t think you have good media literacy. Even you said in the beginning combining the stories was a stretch, when decent to good writing doesn’t have to be a stretch. I mean if you’re taking it as being an incel instead of the other point I made, maybe you are one idk 🤷🏼
Game of Thrones season 1 Ned Stark died in an unceremonious shockingly brutal way. And people loved the Lannister's as villains. Then they did it again with Season 3 with the Red Wedding. Killing many fan favorite characters. People actually love these types of deaths... when they make sense. Joel's death is one of the most contrived, characters assassination, world bending deaths that not only was it unceremonious, shocking, brutal, but ultimately disrespectful. Not only to the character but to the investment the people who like him had. It sucked! That's why people hate it.
@@justadude3789 cringe take that is braindead. Joel does not deserve a heroes death, he isn’t one. There was no character assassination he grew to be vulnerable because of Ellie. In doing so, he murdered innocent people. He literally murdered someone because he suspected them to be “bad” by running him over. He stopped caring until Ellie helped him care again but that blinded him to murder people who didn’t deserve it. Abby was a victim of his actions and Joel deserved it for ruining the chance to help people. His selfish act of violence isn’t noble, but people don’t care they just love violence. Real life proves that with Kyle rittenhouse murdering protesters. He is regarded as a hero by losers and yet he murdered innocent people. Other than loving again, I can’t see a true reason as to why Joel is seen as a heroic figure or a good person. He is not and his death changed Ellie into something awful. Abby again is a victim, and victims do things out of frustration of not feeling like they can make a difference. Luigi was a victim that went to the root problem and took him out and that is more noble than anything a racist like Kyle rittenhouse ever did. But it’s hard to apply these real life experiences because people are simply just stupid and can’t put two and two together, they have to use a fictional story to justify something when it is very much a stretch.
But it wasn’t 💀 TLOU was in production LONG before TWD season 1 came out and only came out one year before TLOU did. Either way, the concept itself wasn’t invented by Twd either, it was a thing long before either and is a trope atp
@@bigjon5095 Which is why it's even more baffling it took off so much, most overhyped trash of all time. Yeah the mushroom zombies are neat but that's where originality ends.
You're very biased and negative. You say everything about TLOU Part 2 like they're bad things, but a lot of what you say makes the game good. You speak about the writers with disdain, but you hate it because don't(/can't) understand it.
Unfortunately, the writers, specifically Hailey Gross, are not competent. She is very inexperienced compared to Bruce Straley (TLOU1) and it shows. I am exploring one of those aspects with this video: how ideas from the classics were not fully realized. I think acknowledging those aspects shows I have an understanding that, to my knowledge, no one else on TH-cam has expressed. Hope you can agree to disagree
@@TheShuckmeister I do agree with some parts of what you say, but to say that the game fails at certain aspects and that the writers are incompetent isn't right.
I'm ngl to you bro. I'm not comparing a play or epic to the writing of a video game. To me that's not a fair comparison. Neil Druckman definitely made some mistakes namely Abby's pov not being a dlc. But I don't really care about Joel dying, when it happened I was like welp it was gonna happen sooner or later after he committed a genocide in the first game .
Sure but the rest of the game is entirely stupid and pointless given the ending where you can't choose. Gotta have a sequel on the table, milk the franchise more after all given the remasters were not enough!
@anitaremenarova6662 I agree that there shouldve been a choice button. I don't agree that it's pointless though, I do agree that the next game should be the last. We do NOT need The Last of Us 4 🤣🤣
@@anitaremenarova6662 why are you mad? I just finished it yesterday and I didn't feel robbed it was a classic story of how revenge isn't gonna bring back your loved ones. Obviously we need a LoU3 now I'm just saying for future reference don't leave endings open ended. AN ENDING SHOULD BE AN ENDING
@@THEdemetrishigashikata It was a classic story executed badly. I had no issues with the first game even if it's a tired story because there were some unique aspects.
One of the arguments that grates me, is that Joel was made dumber because he spent 5 years in the safety of Jackson so lost his survival skills. Yet there are so many examples in TLOU2's flashbacks where he is still doing dangerous tasks.
Yeah it’s not a great take. I’ve seen that crop up a few time in videos defending the game’s choices
nobody is saying he become dumber, but he may have become more careless.
He also never said his name, tommy did
@@FemboyKaiSakuwhat are you talking about Joel also said his name when he stood in the middle of the room not just Tommy. Abby knew but as soon as Joel said his name everyone else knew
@@AALion2004 so joel should just lie even though abby already knows he is joel, how is that gonna help xd
and again he probably got more careless he is enjoying life. He is spending less time killing people, less time surviving. That's just how it is, its not an unrealistic change so yall need to stop acting like its a flaw in the writing
@@FemboyKaiSaku it's just lazy writing Joel was literally cautious and cold when he was with Sarah at the intro of the game and she was ALIVE and Joel was still acting this way there's no excuse for him or Tommy just spilling the beans for Abby so this way Joel can die and Everyome else in the room was armed except for Joel and Tommy theres literal proof of this because Tommy didn't pull out his gun when Joel was shot and Joel didn't have his backpack or weapon on him they literally set themselves up perfectly so abby can get the jump on them
"They don't understand the classics because they're to busy destorying them and tearring down not only what made them good in the first place, but what made their own series good."
This is the best way someone can say what is wrong with modern Western media.
Our society would be better if we read the classics more
@@TheShuckmeister Or if modern writers understood and wrote modern stories properly!
Post Modern.
@@TheShuckmeister Ah, I love it when I'm immediately proven right.
You pointed out something significant: that Ellie, after all this time, has no idea why Abby hates Joel so much. Somehow the writers deemed fit for the entire story to elude her. To this day, Ellie still doesn't reconsider Joel's position as a father, and being a parent herself at the farm, doesn't stop to consider if she would sacrifice her kid to save the world. Ellie still has no idea of Abby's connection to her potential killer either. How can the game sanctimoniously tell us what to think when the puzzle pieces aren't satisfactorily assembled?
While I agree w the rest of what you mentioned, I believe Ellie knows why Abby hates Joel bc she tortured Nora into talking. What I don't understand with the writing though is why Ellie says "I'm the one that you want. There's no cure because of me." cause that makes me inclined to believe that Nora didn't specify that the doctor was Abby's dad. And that's such a crucial point that I don't understand why Nora wouldn't tell Ellie that? 😂 Idk. I just feel like Neil is just bad at understanding how humans work. And I became fully convinced of that when I heard about his interpretation of the first game's ending 😂
Do it yourself. In its own twisted way conflict hate led to these characters to try destroying each other. The WLF and Scars weaken each other to making shells of their respective people's numbers. Ellie and Abby almost killed each other with Ellie putting a knife to a small boy's throat to force a fight oddly enough if Ellie didn't chase after them Abby would be at that beach dead, the irony.
@@asavelakuse6865i think that what they meaned is that they were many points that could impact story more which would make ending and whole dynamic between ellie and abby more personal than what we got cause at the state we were left they are strangers that killed some of their people and thats it if we could see how they acquire more informations then the ending would make a lot more sense like how abby would decide to let ellie and dina go even though ellie killed her people and how ellie stoped herself from killing abby after all these ncps she had no remorse killing addressing these things would only make story better as the message that game tried to deliver
Even though she figured out what Joel did at the end of the original game. Neil Drunkman sucks at making games
@@taeminisloveI think she said that “I’m the one that you want” line to maintain the reveal later. At that point in the story the player doesn’t know the reason that Abby pursued Joel. You can say that’s bad writing or Neil not understanding people but I don’t think it’s really that serious. I find nearly all of the arguments against the story so tiring and nitpicking to be honest.
The last of us part 2 aged like cottage cheese. Shit isn't even sad its just disappointing how bad it is.
Jarvis, look up if cottage cheese ever tastes good moldy
I refused to think joel would turn that stupid to put himself in that position to be killed by someone with so much plot armor. They had to dumb down joel to give abby a chance
If Neil Fuckman Just Sticked With His Rules
Joel Wouldn't Never Say His Name Like This
Contrived narrative is contrived. There is no excuse other than modern writing
@@TheShuckmeister imagine picking up a book & thinking you're Socrates level of Intelligence, then sprinkle in the actual essence of your intelligence that's superficial based of variables of factors i.e independent critical/analytical thinking skills & a comprehensive outlook onto different perspectives.
pure pseudo-intellectualism.
imagine picking up a book & thinking you're Socrates level of Intelligence, then sprinkle in the actual essence of your intelligence that's superficial based of variables of factors i.e independent critical/analytical thinking skills & a comprehensive outlook onto different perspectives.
pure pseudo-intellectualism.@@TheShuckmeister
@@TheShuckmeisterdisclaimer: since I already dissected another superficial TH-camrs video trying to 'fix' TLOU2s story but got shadowbanned because I was 'picking fights' with other ppl, I have to know if you'll shadowban me if I'll dissect your response especially going against other superficial, conformist & indoctrinated/polarized Humans in this comment section but I'll be mindful & skip/ignore any person in the comments who raise points in addition or contribution to this video.
so will you or not?
Abby's side of the story fails for one very glaring reason: she was originally intended to be a clear villain, and hunting her down & killing her was supposed to be extra satisfying by making her extra sadistic & irredeemable by her torturing Joel to death. After he saves her life. Leaving aside the idiocy of the set-up, the excruciatingly sadistic murder ruins her redemption arc.
If she'd been an executioner, instead of an unhinged torturer, they might have been able to make her sympathetic, but changing the goal of the story during development, without changing her shocking villain introduction to match, completely undermines any hope the writers had of pulling off the "sympathy for the devil" goal. The blatant attempt to replace the Joel/Ellie dynamic with an Abby/Lev one was doomed before it began, because of how Abby was introduced. It'd be like watching "I Spit On Your Grave", where the woman finishes the movie by walking away from the ringleader of her attackers, after killing dozens of NPC's to get to him. It's such a sad waste, especially when compared to the first game.
This might be more of a case of author/audience moral dissonance.
See, the author didn't keep firing testers simply for not liking Abby or remove the ending QTE where players would choke Abby because he intended her to be the villain. The contrary: He was hoping people would be cheering she replaced Joel and Ellie, and want more Abby-centric features in the franchise because she's finally how Neil Druckmann would have written Joel in TLOU1 if he got his way the first time.
However, what he considers to be the qualities of a good person are. . . Well, in real life he helped fire people for going to HR when they were sexually harassed and/or assaulted by ex-Naughty Dog MP dev Robert Cogburn, so it's clearly not something you nor anyone who's a functional member of society would consider to be a good person. So you have a genuinely evil person, writing a story about a hero that fits their ideals. As the Japanese IGN reviewer for TLOU2 said: "It's a game about right and wrong, written by people who think they're always right."
@@crazyinsane500 IIRC there were a lot of rumours about Druckmann back when TLOU2 was in production. Basically he was a hard-core debbie downer; apparently he pushed very hard for a bad end to Uncharted 4 as well as TLOU but didn't have the influence to get what he wanted. When he got the chance to write something I'm not surprised that he would come up with Abby.
They had a decent Kill Bill set up for Ellie going to get revenge for Joel and still found a way to mess it up
Yeah I think most people assumed Joel would die but revenge stories can be enjoyable but this one was pretty flawed
You complain about stories being basic but youre asking for a basic revenge story? this game isnt a revenge story
@@FemboyKaiSakuit literally is, for both Abby and Ellie
@@Slashy-VR no, the story is about letting go and understanding other perspectives.
Yes it has revenge theme driving the plot, but thats not what the story itself is about
@@FemboyKaiSakuexcept one side makes no effort to let go and understand the other in Part II. Abby never makes an effort to let go and understand Joel’s/Ellie’s perspective.
Imagine if Joel had died one day from a stray bullet or an unseen marksman one day, completely out of the blue, like Achilles. And instead of fueling Ellie's rage, made her see how pointless death could actually be and how precious life was. It could have spurred the story in an interesting, almost Walking Dead esqe direction where Ellie is a lot more compassionate.
Yeah the randomness of death was reserved for characters like Jesse in the story but they aren’t given time to grieve for it. Abby is more of a Paris figure because she’s so tied to Joel
Almost reminds me of how Sean dies in RDR2. Doesn’t even get to finish his sentence on how it feels off before getting a massive chunk of his face ripped out by a sniper. It was brutal, but worked really well
So the Iliad was "the first of us" part 1 remastered?
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying
I bet naughty dog is working on their ps6 remaster of both games right now
There are few things that are certain in life, but this is one of them
This game or the TV series doesn't exist in my mind, nor does any future Neil Druckman related TLOU products
Unfortunate but there are many such cases
Last of us 2 is the most retcon needed game of all time
Yes
And if TLoU3 continues Abby escaping Seattle's fall and her attempts to re-establish the firefly base... Oh my.. it's the Aeneid.
Great Scott, you’ve cracked the code!
Great to finally see a consistently critical, well articulated take on the game basically without sugarcoating and being apologetic Just about any other critical take I've seen on the game had to shamelessly include or force some positive segment, like "but the gameplay is phenomenal" (which I disagree with) or "but this is just my subjective take..." or "but this is just my opinion" or "the HBO show is amazing" and you get the point... always something. At least half the playerbase has endlessly praised the game since release and it's been critically acclaimed since its launch, so it's been and will always be fine on its own without always needing a defense unit.
Yeah I don’t really pull punches too much. I just talk about where ideas could have gone but didn’t because of writing decisions. I also don’t think I was too harsh or abrasive with this video so it should be a good watch for everyone!
I'm going to be honest. I don't think the HBO show was that good but that's because I feel like the show just completely misunderstood Joel and Ellie as characters and yet the show seems to be loved because it's one of the few video game adaptations to at least hit the major plot points right. Still had good stuff in it though but I don't think it's the slam dunk that it's been touted as being.
There was a video I saw where a streamer literally fixed the game by making you play as Joel and travel with Tommy to find Ellie. And you switch back and forth to also play as Ellie traveling with Abby to to find Abby's group or something - - I can't fully remember. Like tlou, you play as a character you love (Joel and Ellie) while learning to like a new character (Abby) with the protagonist (in this case Ellie).
I wish I could remember the video but hearing his explanation sounded 10000 times better compared to what we actually got
If it had Joel with a prosthetic leg and a cure as antibiotics I think it was a video of writing on games (channel name)
If you ever find the video, post the link
@@tdgarts posted the link: the only problem I got with that video is that the main villain is a little bit cartoonishly evil.
Closer looks video?
@@VERsingthegamez yep, before I got the name wrong
2:10 What do you mean The Iliad (8th century BC) is the oldest story ever put to page? What about The Epic of Gilgamesh (c. 2100-1200 BC) and the Papyrus of Ani (c. 1240 BC)?
I’m actually reading Gilgamesh right now and I stand by the “to page” comment considering Gilgamesh was on stone tablet. A little bit of a technicality but ehh.
I haven’t heard of the Papyrus of Ani until now so I would have to look into that.
The Papyrus of Ani is a manual for the dead, not a story.
@@TheShuckmeister Does it really matter whether it's put to page or stone? Writing is writing dude
To strangle and mangle the truth, 'cause the circle of hatred continues unless we react... We gotta take the power back!!
Row row fight the power
At this point if there will ever be a third sequel they shuold completely forget about the second game and use new fresh characters
Sounds like the Rise of Skywalker
unfortunately they are working on a third one and its going to be focused on the remaining fireflies as the good guys
@@Inkdisc hahah then good luck with that is will defeinitely flop
strange how I was thinking about this game for the first time in years earlier this month, completely unmediated too, my brain just said "hey, remember this?"
@@moonfoxx814 Hope you liked this video about it
@ Omg yes, it was great!
ASOIAF occasionally focuses on what happened or still is happening to certain very minor characters that sometimes only get one or two name drops throughout the story and then never again.
Isaac was built up to be something bigger than he was
One thing I don't understand about the NPC name gimmick is why other enemies behaviors don't change when they notice their friends are dead. They don't get any more violent or desperate, and I think it's a missed opportunity.
Like seriously, Bungie had enemies that changed behaviors like that way back in 2007. In Halo 3, Brutes had a chance to enter berserker mode as they saw their troops die, and Hunters became more vicious when you killed their bond brother.
Surely Naughty Dog could have programmed something like that in their more modern game, right?
I think that feature was in Halo 1 even, it for sure was with Halo 2 with the little manual you get with the game saying that Elite ranks are designated by Color so if you shot high-ranking Elites, Grunts would be demoralized.
But there is the real risk they couldn't have programmed something like that. Neil Druckmann was doing his best to ruin production and when people weren't quitting, they were being fired for things as petty as not liking "certain characters" (IE Abby) according to Jason Schreier.
@crazyinsane500 good catch, I forgot about the Grunts panicking
It's more than most action games do. It's only meant to be a small addition, no more, no less. Don't take a small positive and turn it into a big negative, it just makes the thing worse for yourself.
@bean6228 wait, are we saying the names gimmick in Last of Us 2 is a positive thing? Because it wasn't for me. For me it was a failed emotional manipulation trick that contributed to my ludonarrative dissonance lol.
@@tannerbarnes7392 How can you know something failed it's objective if you don't know what it's objective is.
I like to think that Joel is like madara, writers made him so OP they didn't know how to kill him, same with tommy.
Tommy with the sniper is OP
@@TheShuckmeister Abby has plot armor that is the size of Jupiter to have survived an encounter with him.
I still can't believe we haven't gotten an iliad or odyssey game
You know, honestly a great point. At least we got DMC from the Divine Comedy
I recommend you to play Warriors: Legends of Troy. A hack-n-slash game made by Koei😊
It probably has something to do with that ludonarritive dissonance thing people keep talking about. Also, how do you make a game where the main character refuses to partake in violence? Might make a decent walking simulator, at best.
The story was so bad that they had to retcon the characters' intelligence and skills just to shoehorn the terrible plot forward. 😂
Sad to say, but true
The Last Of Us didn't need a sequel, but if therewas no choice but to make 1, than it should't have been a revenge story and instead be a story about tieing up loose ends. I mean, we still don't know how and why the coriceps virus came into existence, we don't know why and how Ellie is the only immune character and who Ellie's blood parents were/are. Yes, the tv show does awnser those questions, but those awnsers are lame and I don't believe that you should put those awnsers in a completely diffrent medium if you want to inform your costumers.
Yeah at the end of the day it didn’t need a sequel. But if they were, a story about a secondary character could have some potential if handled well (I know most series don’t, but the Odyssey does that with Odysseus)
But it is a story about tying up loose ends. The end of lou1 was a loose end. Joel lied about robbing Ellie of her life purpose. In the second game she uncovers everything and resents him. After years of ignoring him he's suddenly killed and she goes on a misguided revenge mission because of her guilt.
That's all A LOT more interesting then just telling us how the virus came to be or explaining why Ellie is immune. It's pretty obvious that cordiaceps just evolved to infect humans and Ellies immunity is likely another biological anomaly.
Ultimately the zombie stuff isnt anywhere near as important as the human drama, never was.
@@h.i.mcdunnough9421 nah it's not more interesting, it's lame
And it ended up sucking ass
I like this video. It was very well done. If only Neil could find this video and understand you. But in this day and sge even if he does see it i don't think he'd even try to understand
I’m very pleased that you liked this video! I thought it was an interesting take that I hadn’t seen before
Never forget that amazing people like Amy Hennig were pushed out of ND by a talentless hack like Neil.
I am really enjoying the Soul Reaver remasters atm.
I think Neil was talented at one point, and maybe still is.
But after getting hooked on Anita Sarkessian he became way to radical to write with any measure of nuance beyond what he agrees with. A pitfall many a talented writer falls into
17:38 in this second Shuck said something that would make Neil Druckman sweat cold
Mayhaps
@TheShuckmeister You never said Crash or Jak infront of Neil remember he is scared of fun
I grieve for what could have been-a true waste.
Yes
Talking about the reversal of narrative between Homer's works and TLOU stood out to me because I remember thinking after finishing Part II:
"if this game came out first, and the original was a prequel then this might not be so abrasive, but this is awful as a follow-up game"
@@kingnothing2161 Honestly that was part of the thought process with this video which I’m glad you shared that same opinion
Honestly the worst part of this writing was trying to make me sympathize for Abby.🐱
It could've worked though! Fuckman just an idiot who wanted to prove he was so great he could ignore writing rules. He wanted to make you hate Abbi from the jump and make you love her by the end but he just refuses to give her any real humanizing qualities pretty much at all and then kills Joel.
Killing Joel can work, despite how unlikely it was the Fireflys' could've made a cure or effectively used it, Abbi had more than enough to good reasons to swear revenge. She just... Didn't have a reason to not be considered a villain in the end. Because Druckman wanted to make a point not write a character.
It is almost impossible for most players
Honestly the worst part is tlou2 fans think you don't have brain if you don't feel sympathy for abby.
@@S-tremeThey will forever tout that anyone who didn’t end up liking her by the end of the game just ”didn’t get it”, and that we’re just salty Joel died. That couldn’t be further from the truth. The themes aren’t rocket science to understand. And his death simply HAD to be handled with more care.
@@S-tremethey looked at Abby playing with the dog and instantly switch to her team it's crazy how easily those fans were manipulated to defend a terrible person
Worth the wait
Glad
This video just seems like an excuse to geek out over an old story. Hard to say there are any parallels to the game because the writers clearly didn't refer to any similar stories to make this one better. It's a revenge story with no clear direction.
In my opinion abbys campaign was mostly bloat, getting medicine for levs sister just for her to die is the biggest waste of time that takes add extra 6 hrs to the game
one thing I've never seen anyone brought up yet is when Mel got killed, that's the only scene that she wears a jacket, so her belly isn't shown to Ellie. They had to find some ways to get Ellie to kill Mel, Such a manipulative writing.
That whole scene is a mess.
1) it's only been a few weeks since Joel's death yet for some reason Mel who just learned she was pregnant then looks 9 months in
2)at every other point she never covers it up
3)they have Ellie not use her position of power to ensure she keeps it by having Mel restrain Owen so that Ellie can then restrain her. Instead Ellie allows Owen to close the distance and try and grab the gun
4) at no point do they announce she's pregnant!
5) Ellie's so shocked by what she's done she drops the map that has her base of operations circled on it for Abby to find.
Neil forced the hell out of this scene to get exactly what he wanted without considering how these people would actually act in this situation.
@ yep. The fans only focus on the big message and thinks it’s so deep and smart. Anyone who can think for themselves will never get immersed because of all these little writing errors would take them out of the game.
I'm genuinely curious if the game was banned in certain middle-Eastern countries with how over-the-top and cartoonish the Jewish representation is. Anyway, it's nice that we are finally be able to put into words what we instinctively felt to be one of the most incompetently told stories of all time.
Joel my beloved 😢
Goodnight sweet prince
Imo Vinland Saga does this type of story way better
That series is deemed to fail until they recton the second game, and that won't happen if Druckmann is still at the head of ND.
That sounds like a Rise of Skywalker situation
@TheShuckmeister spot on
Thanks a lot now I have to read the Iliad. I already have a backlog of books to read.
I think the main difference between the two is that we have reason to care about Troy and Greece before the conflict. Paris is not the greatest person, but the Trojans had no part in his folly. We also know how bad Greeks have it with the capricious nature of the Gods.
In TLOU 2 we're expected to empathize with the WLF after seeing their atrocities. Then at the end Ellie chickens out as if she couldn't have that revelation 200 murders earlier. Billy was just defending his village before she slit his throat.
Good point. It’s always easier to care about things in history because the Trojan War actually happened.
too long, didnt watch. Now tell me what Joel's stand would be if he had one
His stand would be "Ain't That a Kick in the Head,"
《That Green Gentleman》-- It can make things look green. It doesn't actually make them green through, they just look green.
Emerald splash since its green 😂
I don’t understand how a game company can go on and develop a game for years before bulletproofing the story, or at least revise it with actual writers.
I don’t understand either
when shuck speaks, i listen
when shuck posts, i watch
when shuck breathes, i don't
GLORY TO THE SHUCKMEISTER!!!!!
Finally, proper praise for the work I do!
Really? Moving away from single player games? I'm starting to think it's part of the human condition to grow disillusioned with whatever he has at had. I'm all but done with multi-player (perhaps because I've been too focused on competitive multi-player games) but I just yearn and enjoy single player games way more now.
@@NerdyDumbProductions In that video I explain why I love single player games and no longer have time for them
Shuck-bruv. What is actually crackle-lackle-happening. It's Xmas in less than 48 hours, best wishes. Love ya. Good luck in America 🇺🇸
Merry Christmas!
God bless you too, brother
@1:35 When exactly did Naughty Dog “remove its own stylised design?” Are you talking about Jak and Daxter? Because the footage used makes it look like you’re claiming TLoU1 was stylised… which it definitely wasn’t.
I've always wondered if the people who didn't like this game think that it is objectively bad and not that its just their opinion because it always sounds like they do. Genuine question.
The game is a 8 or better out of 10. It looks beautiful plays smoothly on 10 year old hardware. The game is constructed well from the code stand point.
The story is objectively bad. And disheartening that so many people think this game is saying something profound.
@@zombiekiller2io How can something be objectively bad if many people love it.
@ truth exists outside of the minds of man
@ basically just because nazis agreed on the Jews didn’t make them objective correct
@@zombiekiller2io Ok, how do you, a man, know its objectively bad?
This game story was so dumb the only thing likable about it is the gameplay and seeing fanboys defend it is wild and Joel death we all excepted him to die but to see him die due to him trusting a whole group of strangers which he never did is insane.
Not particularly relevant but Diane Krueger was absolutely gorgeous as Helen of Troy, I'd go to war for her
She’s German, but very beautiful
@TheShuckmeister are Germans not usually beautiful?
Really great video, even though i disagree with some of it. Props!
I’m glad you disagree but like the video. That’s the best part of the internet. I find myself having the same opinion listening to other people’s opinions on the subject
To be honest, The Last of Us Part 1 should of have been a stand alone Story, that's it, leaving the ending 5 inches open, cuz it was Perfect.
But Neil Drunkman came and destroyed the franchise with his forced egoism and bad writting about "Revenge", is not actually Last of Us anymore, is more of a Revenge K11ling spree that's it with a dumb ending that leads to nothing while everything that has been done to get there was for nothing as well.
Neil can keep blabling excuses and blabling about everyone hating the game and all, but the fact is that he failed as a director and a writter due his ego and egoism & does not want to admit it cuz he knows he scr3w up big time, hell even he though he was important in a red carpet and everyone ignores him😂, serves him right, now he is making a Woke game that is gonna flop and he is gonna blame everyone else due his ego and not blame himself.
Yeah I tried to not focus on that as much with this video but it’s certainly present
What do you think about
TLOU EXPLAINED
THE COST OF HONOUR
Recontextualizing Tommy?
@@swamidesperado8075 I don't think someone like him would bother watching an actually insightful video essay on the game. Tlou explained is great though, she picked up on aspects of the story that I hadn't even considered before.
@@johngrizismost people who hate tlou 2 don’t care about insightful analyses in general. They just want to blindly hate on a game that’s currently popular to hate.
Btw, have you read The Way of Kings by Brandon Sanderson? I think you will like it
Nope but I’ll look into it
@TheShuckmeister I'm promoting this too.
0:30 TLOU2 isn’t too long. Have you heard of a BOOK? Those are long and effective.
@@ZeDitto3 bro this is literally talking about the Iliad which is a very long book. The quote was, “too long to make the point they were trying to make.”
First of all, i'm amazed at the number of literary critics we have amassed here in TH-cam. The next ''Gravity's rainbow'' is by the corner if we go by the talent exhibited in analysis. I wonder when your first book drops since you seem to possess such a treasure of knowledge and talent ofc ofc.
Just a small note on your point on Ellie's and Abby's last scene. A video game is a visual interactive medium you don't necesarily need dialogue to convey that Ellie doesn't kill Abby so '' she can protect Joel's image in her mind''. If you play the last chapter and just by taking a look at her and her flashback you can tell she's at a breaking point and that her next action can define her, in a negative or a positive way. Also there's no ludonarrative dissonace, just because she has killed a lot of people it doesn't mean she has to kill Abby. Also, again, it's a videogame you re the one that chooses the approach of Ellies combat. Stealthy with minimal casualties or head on and brutal.
Also i really wonder how many commenters here that decry the destruction of Iliad by the ''subversive'' modern writers have even read it.
Don't let us waiting on your work that will rival the classics ofc ofc.
That’s passive aggressive much, huh
As if being a creative is somehow a prerequisite to critiquing anything. Get over yourself.
Neat Emplemon reference there 🤝
He’s an inspiration
I disagree with most of the video. The more I try to see the Israeli politics in the game the more I shy away from it, especially knowing all the dialogues of both sides, the game tries really hard to level all with ambiguity, and does a good job on that part. When Yara says stuff like, They distorted the prophet writings, or Danny wanting Owen to kill people just because the other side isn't human to him anymore due to the WLF propaganda. Civil War is a great movie about that.
I think the setup for Joel death could be different, felt convenient(Thommy giving away Jackson like it doesn't matter, like wtf we're just going to trust these people out of nowhere?) but also convincing enough (contradictory, I know).
I also love the way Abby say she was really lucky to find Joel, and l immediately paired with Tess phrase "Our luck had to run out, sooner or later"
If the games were switched out of order, it would be really interesting, the Part 1 as a prequel to Joel and Ellie's story. Then would always be a story about parallels from the beginning
And reading the comments I realize we never really see the outcome about what Joel did, we never really see people struggling because there's no cure, We never see a character dying from infection, specially from Ellie's perspective, would add to her struggle to forgive Joel.
Didn’t even know about the Israel propaganda lol. Figures…
Highly curious decision given current circumstances. And it won all the awards on top of everything. Very interested to see how the show does it for season 2
Why are we even comparing classics to mediocrities like TLoU2? It's simple: TLoU2's story is a contrived presentation of a revenge story full of plot conveniences and deus ex machinas with a little bit of emotional manipulation.
I just wanted to talk about things I liked in the classics
I never bought it - it didn't have online. Factions was fun.
@@BrickDaniels-qu7bz Factions was basic but fun. I liked it
The last of us as a whole has done damage to gaming in general. I’d say games like God Of War following that lead was a mistake
Except God of War made it good, because Kratos completed his revenge but didn't change anything, so if anyone who should say vengeance will bring no peace is him.
Toy its about the crappy gameplay of the new god of wars
Yes, the constant remakes and remasters are not positive, beyond the story and gameplay elements
0:41 Honestly, I think it's one of the most overrated "games" of all time. Like the story and performance are really good. But the game side of it doesn't really do anything special or that innovative.
That doesn't mean I dislike the game, but it's just one of the first "movie" games where the cinematic story was prioritised over the game side. Nowhere near as egregious as say MGS IV with the gameplay to cinematic ratio.
But I've recently been playing through days gone. It is such a wet noodle of a game that the shooting is fine, the driving is okay, and the survival mechanics just feel tedious. The detective mode is just tacked on. I feel because it's trying so hard to be like the Last of Us. It like TLoU puts all of its eggs in the story, cinematic, and character basket. If that doesn't land like TLoU did, it's seen as a very flat game.
6:52 Not sure I see it yet. The 1 game to the second had very different writing teams and different goals set by the project leads. This being Amy henning and Neil Druckman. Neil's primary goal was to subvert expectations and create a more diverse cast and protagonist. Pretty sure he said as much in interviews.
I think your letting yourself runaway with the homer thing a bit to much. Like it's on the brain and you want it to fit. Because alot of these things are tropes. You don't necessarily need to know the illyad or homes work to emulate a similar plot device or structure. Because it's been used in so many places else where.
7:54 Oh it ain't that deep plenty of games yell out stuff when people die. But in this case the Devs said its to make you think those nameless npcs had a name, don't you feel bad they had a story too. When they didn't.
17:17 So everytime someone's village gets burned to the ground or raided and pillaged or is destroyed in a war I neeed to say oh look that's exclusively homer?
You want me to believe you're a media literate, well read, free-thinker, and you actually project pretention, a propensity toward conformity, and susceptibility to propaganda.
Perhaps the strongest example of this is the pat on the back you give yourself for reading and "appreciating" classic literature. Many people appreciate the legacy, and artistic merit of classic literature. What is readily apparent to me is that you uncritically praise classic literature for the same reason you uncritically deride The Last of Us Part 2. Because you think you're supposed to. Not because you have anything to say. The imaginary thread you draw between these games and Homer's epics is something you think you're supposed to do as an essayist, and an intellectual. You read the Iliad, you've got it on the brain, and now you're seeing it everywhere. Most of your criticisms of the game are vague references to Reddit posts you read on a confirmation bias bender, that you regurgitate back into the mouths of your audience of similarly uncritical chickies. None of this is actually coherent.
@@futurestoryteller beautifully put. People like this are why most games are boring and uninspired. None of these people care about the actual plot of tlou 1 or 2 (most of them haven’t played either game). What they care about is the meta-narrative surrounding the game. It’s currently trendy to hate tlou 2, so that’s what most people automatically default to.
I hope to god that druckman doesn’t change the plot of part 3 in an attempt to appeal to these people.
@@Car-qu2bc I don't know if it's true that most of them have played _neither_ game. Having said that, trying to listen to this made my head swirl. I'm not convinced the script wasn't generated by prompt. Which would make make posting a video like this easy, in lieu of any experience with each source material, but especially Homer's materials. Which are pretty long. I didn't mention this in my original post, because it was already quite long itself, and Google's AI-friendly algorithm seems to take virtually all insinuations as abusive.
It just never sounds like there's any actual thought behind the words. If I assumed a person wrote it I would have to be concerned for that person's neurological health.
Awesome video!
5:36 Stylish
0:56 UHMM IM TRAUMATIZED
I have to include it in every mention of this game by law
GAME THEOR-
Soon
I just really can't agree with this video I'm sorry I've heard the same ol Schick over and over again for Part 2 and this is from someone who has problems with it but this was never one of them
Uhm acshually... but isn't the tale of Gilgamesh the oldest story put to page?
Gilgamesh (which I am reading right now) was carved into stone tablets while the Iliad was written on papyrus.
A bit of a technicality but I was pretty precise with my wording
Both games were written and directed by Neil Druckmann, in the second game he had a co-writer Halley Gross. The killing of Joel gives him a similar role as Sarah has for Joel. Ellie ''gives up' because killing her is not worth it in the end and would not heal her pain.
In the end like The Count of Monte Cristo, revenge destroys everything that is dear to Ellie, her obsession, she looses her loved one, her family, and even the ability to play guitar, one of the clearest symbols of Joel. The game according to Niel explores how we humans in the name of justice and dealing with trauma commit horrid violent acts, how tribalism and pride fuel dehumanization.
I feel like you should have done more research on the influences rather than go into assumptions. Influences to the Last of Us 2 include Druckmann's own experience of growing up in Israel and the conflict in the area, the Ramallah lynching was one of the moments of history that influenced him
Metal Gear Solid 2, the Paradise lost documentary film series, Dave Grossman's book On Killing, the British tv show The End of the F***ing World include other influences etc.
The Iliad from what I have read does not seem to have been one of the main influences for the game.
I don’t think I expressly said that the Iliad was a direct influence on this game specifically but you can see elements of it in this story and more so in the other works you mentioned. There does seem to be a “watering down” of tropes that worked for the Iliad but don’t for this story which is the main point I was trying to get across
TLOU2 is pure trash
There were many talented people who worked on it but the final product left much to be desired
At this point, you either get the message of the last of us part 2 or you don’t and that’s okay. The story is not for everyone and you get something out of it each time you visit it. That’s what makes great art. I hope you see the greatness in this game someday. It’s not perfect whatsoever, but it is a masterpiece
The themes and messages of Last of Us 2 are done objectively better in One Piece than in Last of Us 2 and Dune 2.
Like it and take whatever you want from it. But it is an objectively poorly written story. And only a masterpiece as an example of what not to do in these types of narratives.
@@RoronoaZoro-ur6hr just because you don’t like the execution of a story doesn’t make it bad. All three are masterpieces in their own right. You connected more with one piece and that’s great!
@@justadude3789 sorry you feel that way. Hopefully it clicks with you someday ^_^
Im not really sure what is the point? I mean as an artist i see modern art as "nothing will be original anymore, everything has been done already and its not a bad thing". What happens is that the new pieces of art (music, dance, movies, storytelling, etc.) is just a collage of different influences from different eras. I dont think TLOU 2 is a masterpiece, has misses here and there but if we just compare one modern thing to something classic or really old obviously its not going to make sense. Modern creations have influences from too many different eras, different points of view, different ways to say o tell a story.
However i do really enjoy pieces of art that a lot of people hate and a lot of people love. That's when you know there is something worth to check out
The clarify, the point was to express elements of the classics and why they worked (hence the name “classics”) versus how modern writing makes poor decisions that subvert them. This game has all the cultural relevance of the Shape of Water when it could have been so much more with better writing.
I think I would take your criticisms seriously if you people held Part 1 to the same standards as Part 2
Joel had the most insane plot armor in storytelling history and nobody complained because it’s daddy Joel.
His bitch ass got what he deserved.
He got what he had coming to him. His plot armor ran out and Abby, Lev, and Ellie received it.
If Part 2 is deemed poorly written for arbitrary reasons then Part 1 should also get hated on.
I think the story has pacing issues but it’s still a masterpiece.
I personally loved it. It had its issues and definitely needed more time in the oven story-wise but it still hit me hard.
I have many disagreements with your take on this game but the most significant one to me was your understanding of the final fight between Ellie and Abby. Her deciding to not kill her wasn't just because it "wasn't worth it", she did it to break the cycle of violence and to forgive. She realized killing her would not fix anything, so she lets her live. Also, saying the scene is "underwhelming" is kind of what the whole game is critiquing. One should not come out of this game thinking that what happened throughout the whole thing was right and that Ellie not finalizing here revenge on Abby was a bad ending. It should be relieving that she breaks the cycle, not underwhelming...
@@spoof00101 I don’t believe I said she should have finalized the revenge, and I think you and I have very different takes on what it means to “forgive.” I do not think Ellie forgave Abby in the end. Nothing about the dialogue makes that clear. If anything, Ellie is back to letting go after she killed Owen and Mel, letting Abby live with that loss and being content
@@TheShuckmeister Why do you need dialogue to say that someone forgives? Does the releasing of squeezing someone's neck underwater that was going to kill them not mean she forgives or at least is no more into the idea of killing her for revenge?
Also, she's not "content" with having killed Owen, Mel and others in her way, she's in fact discontent with what she's done and might be haunted from it for a while.
Saying it's "underwhelming" because it's a revenge story where the revenge doesn't actually happen is quite a conservative way to look at stories.
There is one thing. (Personally I see what you mean, as I often read mythologies and I can see your point).
But when you said the writers were incompetent and did not know what they were doing.
Sadly you are mistaken.
When they said the theme of the game was hate. You have no idea how literal they are. Because as shocking as it is, a lot of the people and even the director himself hated not only the game, but also Joel and its fans. This is why he was destroyed and why the game is the way it is. The hate they felt was literally sown into the very fabric of the game.
The director admitted it when people began to ask why he killed Joel in such a way for no reason. He admitted that he hated Joel because he was a “white male” and hated the game cause it had a white heroic male lead. Wanted to get rid of him to “fix the game”… this is why when people began to complain about the game story and such he and others went threw a temper tantrum over people hating the game because Abby is trans or something and fans were just phobic when the criticism had nothing to do with that.
The theme was hate, because the people who were making it hated the product and like it said, the hatred bled through and ruined what would have been a good game story and game in general.
Good distinction, though with this video I tried to steer away from the nefarious motives of the director and only focus on the quality of storytelling compared to classic literature that uses many of the same techniques
Classic literature fans having a propaganda?!? Paint me shocked! This video was the biggest nothing burger I've ever seen-had you ONCE properly critiqued the game instead of making a useless, incoherent notion every time you got the chance to, I wouldn't have hated this video nearly as much.
What's even funnier is The Last of Us 2 is far from being my favourite game, but the level of criticism this game has reached is simply pathetic.
Well , i replaying TLOU both of them in this year , and everyone loves to tell that TLOU 1 don't have flaws, but my god the game is long asfck and sometimes the story struggle to just continue , we as a audience and player think at that point that Joel is imortal because he survived at most bushilt situation ever, i honestly like more TLOU2 than 1 , the conflict and the pain is so more viceral than in 1.
TLOU2 is like 10 hours longer on average than the first
@TheShuckmeister But it's two storylines different
Desperately trying to find parallels between The Last of Us series and Homer's works, you set yourself up for disappointment by assuming that either game is inspired by the Iliad or the Odyssey. And when you find inconsistencies between the two narrative worlds, you claim that modern writers are "betraying the classics" as if they had any intention of replicating them. It's all in your head homie. I can find parallels between The Last of Us Part 1 and the pixar movie Up, but that doesn't mean it was an inspiration, or that the game needs to follow those same narrative beats in order to succeed. There are tropes that began with Homer's works, but assuming that modern stories have to play by a certain set of rules just because the Iliad came first is naive and backwards.
Not to mention that you did all of that to then make the same old complaints about the game that people made 4 years ago. Complaints that have been picked apart for years. Your criticisms aren't as special as you think they are.
Just accept that Cucckman sucks dude
I mistakenly thought his critique of the game was going to be somewhat in good faith, but I have fooled myself into thinking so. He's almost certainly concealed his hate of "wokeness" in art through pseudo-intellectualism.
Ok, now go make a proper video defending your position and giving straight arguments. That also goes for the other "enlightened one" as well.
@@miguels.b.2749 sorry dude, I'm not making a video just because you're mad. If you have an actual argument to make, believe it or not you can type it out right here.
@johngrizis I'm not mad. I'm just saying that he at least exposed his arguments correctly and even wanted to provide more information about other fictional works. While on the other hand fanboys of TLOU2 only have very few tools to their disposal: either they call you names and ist/phobe, they call you a Xbox fanboy or they just say you're being "condescending" or similar stuff. Believe it or not, that's not proving them (people being critical) wrong at any rate.
I think the story was good. Saying it was bad writing is a lie. Joel was trying to become a better person along the way in jackson. Ellie set up a clear boundary with him with Seth. All the artifacts are carrying a story of its own like Boris the arrow guy at hillcrest garage. No one can convince me that TLOU2 story was poorly written.
Ayyy
i honestly think you took too much time trying to compare the 2 stories instead of seeing whats actually there :l
I’ve played TLOU2 2 and a half times by now. Is there an element of the story you think I missed in this comparison?
You said that Homer's epic painted nothing side synthetic to the readers. Well I would argue that naughty dog did not do that in this story. They paint ellie as a phsyicopath who by the end of the tale the player can't even side with ellie when she lets Abby go because she basically kills so many people im cold blood and gives up a perfect life for a shot of revenge. Its basically a slap in the face when she lets she hulk go. On the other hand they did everything they could you make you want to side with Abby.
Yeah for stories that try to both-sides a conflict, the Iliad is a great example of how to sympathize with both of them. But it would need someone like Isaac to be the villain on the story
Obnoxious zoombrain editing
I don’t think so. If anything, my editing style is much slower compared to more fast paced videos on the platform
@@TheShuckmeisteryeah your editing is fine don't sweat it
I still dont see a reason to hate this game that much its not that much worse than the first and it improves in a lot of areas in terms of gameplay.
I always felt tlou got way too much praise for just its story when story isnt all a game should be.
Mostly i just hate the toxic discourse around this series
There are far better franchises and games there are far better games made by ND anyways i feel.
And in terms of story at least RDR1/2 achieve that same level of storytelling while actually offering more in terms of gameplay whereas TLOU never really has
While this was an interesting watch. I think TLOU2 is one of the greatest games of all time. Everyone’s motivation does make sense. The death scenes all have a quick and unsatisfying vibe to them because that usually what death is. It’s instantaneous and there are usually no goodbyes.
The game also uses its mechanics to enhance the story. (The sniper mission being the best example).
The main talking point that divides so many people is the fact that the story lives and dies on whether you can empathise with Abby. And that usually boils down to how much you liked Joel. For me while he was a great character he was also a piece of shit who even taking the final mission out, admitted to killing a whole bunch of innocent people.
Plus while it’s true that many people hated it, many loved it. It won so many awards including a lot of public voting awards. And came second in the game awards public vote narrowly beaten by GOT. I think if a product is this heavily debated and dissected years after its release means that they had to have done something right.
It's like, Madden. Madden makes a lot of money so clearly they did something right... The same thing applies to things that are divisive.
I mean Madden is quite divisive as well, so they did at least two things right.
No the only way for anything to make sense is to turn Joel stupid and get rid of his entire character. Then give Abby a incredible amount of plot armor to have her succeed with pitiful pandering to emotions. The voting you speak of was obvious heavily underhanded to the game's favor.
@@Balbaneth
I never got the argument about Joel acting stupid.
1: Joel saved Abby because he was trying to change as a person. Ellie changed him.
2: It was Tommy not Joel who gave away their names, who’s always been the more trusting of the two.
3: The two had to follow Abby since they were surrounded by infected and needed a place to stay.
Yes Abby gives in to her emotions over logic a lot of times. You know why? She’s a flawed character. She makes mistakes and either intentionally or unintentionally hurts people. People have been yelling for years about female protagonists being Mary Sue’s. Now here’s one with undeniable flaws, and people still complain. Also Abby has no more plot armour than an average video game protagonist.
In terms of the vote. What does that even mean dude?
Blind
@@TheAniSiTommy giving away names is also out of character, you know that right?… knowing what he knows from the beginning of the game and what Joel has told tommy about what he did to save Ellie he’s VERY unlikely to do something like that lol it’s ridiculous man. You can’t make excuses for poor writing. Joels death was inevitable we all know that but the execution of it (although gruesome) was rushed and purely used as a plot device to start of the story and they don’t make it subtle whatsoever. People who recognized this flaw also recognized what they were trying to do with showing us Abby’s part of the story it’s a pathetic attempt at trying to gain sympathy from the audience, why? because they make it TOO obvious that’s what they’re trying to do! This whole “perspective” could’ve been presented in a much better structure
The game was amazing, you're just a contrarian. Your pseudo-intellectual writing and obnoxious voiceover in this video is insufferable.
I think it’s quite telling that not a single point of the video was refuted. It’s okay if someone doesn’t like something you like. It’s okay is other stories do the narrative structure better.
This is a pretty reactionary and poor reading of all the works mentioned here.
I was going to dismiss your comment, but, after watching the video, I see you are right. He went into tangents about the doctor guy being a different skin tone and about how nowadays videogame stories aren't as good as one of the most famous and studied histories in the western canon (lmao) and therefore something something the west has fallen. Really disappointing
I can see why you think that but I really took my time going through the Iliad trying to understand it from multiple perspectives. This was the one that stuck with me the most. And making a vid about TLOU2 4 years later isn’t too reactionary haha.
Also these videos are in production for a while hence the comment about Joker 2 which released months ago. I’ve been taking longer to make the videos so I hope the quality is better (despite being pretty busy)
@@semareyes98he mentioned it for like 1 minute
I cannot disagree more with most of this video. If roles were reversed, Joel would absolutely be hated and many would believe he deserves this “unceremonious” death. Joel did some terrible things, and I don’t believe him saving Ellie was the right thing to do. But Joel is not someone who should die in a way that paints him in a bright light, he did that to other people within the first game. I think Abby having a similar story is done well, the only reason why people hate her is because she killed a main character. It’s very similar to Gabby from AOT. She’s another version of Eren and people hate her for killing a loved character but people refuse to see her point of view because they are either incels or blinded by the main cast that if the roles were reversed Eren is the literal villain. It’s even spelled out that what he’s doing is xenophobia and fans still love Eren because he’s a main character. People just refuse to admit that Joel kinda deserved what he got and won’t want to sympathetic with Abby.
So if we disagree with bad writing associated with Abby or even worse with Gabby, we’re incels? That’s a bit of an extreme take!
I personally did not like the writing in the 4th season of AOT for very similar reasons. If you’re going to both-sides and issue, you need to do it tactfully and there is a template from classic literature that does this well, hence the purpose of this video.
@ I mean you can compare, but it has to be tangible, which this to me fails to do. I mean if not understanding why a character was written to begin with and claiming it to be bad because it hurt your feelings, I honestly don’t think you have good media literacy. Even you said in the beginning combining the stories was a stretch, when decent to good writing doesn’t have to be a stretch. I mean if you’re taking it as being an incel instead of the other point I made, maybe you are one idk 🤷🏼
Game of Thrones season 1 Ned Stark died in an unceremonious shockingly brutal way. And people loved the Lannister's as villains. Then they did it again with Season 3 with the Red Wedding. Killing many fan favorite characters.
People actually love these types of deaths... when they make sense.
Joel's death is one of the most contrived, characters assassination, world bending deaths that not only was it unceremonious, shocking, brutal, but ultimately disrespectful. Not only to the character but to the investment the people who like him had. It sucked! That's why people hate it.
@@justadude3789 cringe take that is braindead. Joel does not deserve a heroes death, he isn’t one. There was no character assassination he grew to be vulnerable because of Ellie. In doing so, he murdered innocent people. He literally murdered someone because he suspected them to be “bad” by running him over. He stopped caring until Ellie helped him care again but that blinded him to murder people who didn’t deserve it. Abby was a victim of his actions and Joel deserved it for ruining the chance to help people. His selfish act of violence isn’t noble, but people don’t care they just love violence. Real life proves that with Kyle rittenhouse murdering protesters. He is regarded as a hero by losers and yet he murdered innocent people. Other than loving again, I can’t see a true reason as to why Joel is seen as a heroic figure or a good person. He is not and his death changed Ellie into something awful. Abby again is a victim, and victims do things out of frustration of not feeling like they can make a difference. Luigi was a victim that went to the root problem and took him out and that is more noble than anything a racist like Kyle rittenhouse ever did. But it’s hard to apply these real life experiences because people are simply just stupid and can’t put two and two together, they have to use a fictional story to justify something when it is very much a stretch.
Good thing I was never personally invested into this franchise. TLOU1 is just telltale's walking dead ripoff lmfao
Story wise yes definitely
Yeah but I was. I mentioned it in the very first video (now deleted) I ever made
But it wasn’t 💀 TLOU was in production LONG before TWD season 1 came out and only came out one year before TLOU did. Either way, the concept itself wasn’t invented by Twd either, it was a thing long before either and is a trope atp
@@bigjon5095 Which is why it's even more baffling it took off so much, most overhyped trash of all time. Yeah the mushroom zombies are neat but that's where originality ends.
@@anitaremenarova6662doesn't have to be original it's how good it did it and last of us did it, probably the best whether you like it or not lol
You all take writing for a video game way to seriously. Story belongs in the backseat
They marketed it as the best story driven experience, excuse me princess
Uh what? No! It's literally one of the best mediums for story telling because it's ability to put you in the characters perspective so easily.
You're very biased and negative. You say everything about TLOU Part 2 like they're bad things, but a lot of what you say makes the game good. You speak about the writers with disdain, but you hate it because don't(/can't) understand it.
Unfortunately, the writers, specifically Hailey Gross, are not competent. She is very inexperienced compared to Bruce Straley (TLOU1) and it shows. I am exploring one of those aspects with this video: how ideas from the classics were not fully realized. I think acknowledging those aspects shows I have an understanding that, to my knowledge, no one else on TH-cam has expressed. Hope you can agree to disagree
@@TheShuckmeister I do agree with some parts of what you say, but to say that the game fails at certain aspects and that the writers are incompetent isn't right.
yay yet another tlou2 slander video, sorry you can't enjoy complex storytelling:,((((
*doesn’t even watch the video where I explain elements of complex storytelling*
You guys are quite funny :)
I'm ngl to you bro. I'm not comparing a play or epic to the writing of a video game. To me that's not a fair comparison. Neil Druckman definitely made some mistakes namely Abby's pov not being a dlc. But I don't really care about Joel dying, when it happened I was like welp it was gonna happen sooner or later after he committed a genocide in the first game .
Sure but the rest of the game is entirely stupid and pointless given the ending where you can't choose. Gotta have a sequel on the table, milk the franchise more after all given the remasters were not enough!
@anitaremenarova6662 I agree that there shouldve been a choice button. I don't agree that it's pointless though, I do agree that the next game should be the last. We do NOT need The Last of Us 4 🤣🤣
@@THEdemetrishigashikata We also don't need the last of us 3, second one was bad enough can't imagine the absolute slop.
@@anitaremenarova6662 why are you mad? I just finished it yesterday and I didn't feel robbed it was a classic story of how revenge isn't gonna bring back your loved ones. Obviously we need a LoU3 now I'm just saying for future reference don't leave endings open ended. AN ENDING SHOULD BE AN ENDING
@@THEdemetrishigashikata It was a classic story executed badly. I had no issues with the first game even if it's a tired story because there were some unique aspects.
People are still upset about TLOU2? 😂
I wouldn’t say upset. Just a new perspective to look at it from