Here's an easy example that seperate the two: Vorthos loves the fact that arc-rifles are anti-vehicle and not anti monster, because electromagnetic gun should mess up technology. Melvin hates that monsters and vehicles are different things in the first place because that means some weapons just don't do thier job against tyrannids.
We went through this during the game Dawn of War 2 that the only Dreadnought/Wraithlord/Carnifex/Deff Dread stompy boi immune to melta bombs was the Carnifex, it was *painful* to deal with Carnis back then with Infantry, unaware with how it was on the table at the time.
Recently had a game where everyone had to stop and realize that the highest toughness unit in our Ork player's list was the Beastboss on Squigosaur (T10), when that list had Ghaz (T6) and deffdreads, buggies, and planes all at T9. This highlighted how every player at the table was pretty Vorthos and confused and upset at this one number in a codex. Why does the naked man on a pig require higher-quality ordinance than the mega-armored iron man ork or the mech suits?
@@CMTechnica I feel like the mistake with Ghaz was having him lead meganobz. That seems to be why they gave him a 6 toughness. Offense wise he's very strong and can wound any datasheet on a 2+ but yeah his toughness just doesn't make sense.
My time being the most annoyed about rules not matching lore is how when the Boarding actions game mode was announced as a T'au player I can not take a Coldstar Commander. The Coldstar suit was designed specifically for void warfare and boarding actions in the Farsight books.
Not a Tau player but that would piss me off. Like if Terminators couldn’t be used in boarding actions… when that’s literally what the biggest terminator based spin off was about
Something else with Tau that annoys the crap out of me is how way of the short blade has always been treated. Farsight is specificly mentioned as training his subordinates in close quarters combat and with the exception of 9th it's always a better ranged buff because Tau arent allowed to melee
the most baffling and hilarious part of that is (I assume) you could take farsight himself, yeah? in his personal modified, upgraded coldstar suit? like, normal coldstar suits like the one farsight used in his first book to literally board a battle barge? nah, but farsight in his specific coldstar? A-OK.
I love that the no melee is also something that everything that plays against the t'au hates about them, they should definitely be weak in melee and the best shooting army.. I guess Kroot will come to the rescue?@@cipher4e
i fucking love your podcast, you guys and adeptus ridiculous are life fuel when i have nothing to do, y'all can't even comprehend how much more fun cleaning or cooking becomes once i have these bad boys in my headphones
Duuuude are we living the same life? 😆 i am so glad to hear someone else watches/listen to both my favourite channels while cooking/doing stuff haha Take care mate ~
This really helped me understand my conflicting feelings on T'au in 10th. On Melvin side, I really dig the whole ftgg rule and how it makes the army more strategic, units working together, focus firing and not just 'shoot at whatever until everyone is dead'. On Vorthos side, however, It is really frustrating to look at 90% of 'deadly T'au guns' and realise how underwhelming their profiles are. Dealing damage by quantity and not quality of shots, really makes you feel like a slightly better imperial guard
@games-wz7sz It's my disability too and has been joked about on the show before. I'm sorry if the joke hurt your feelings, but this seems a pretty selective time to be upset about it, given we're on a channel that has had similar jokes in its content.
@games-wz7sz So if you have problems with that content too, then legitimately, why are you even here? Christ on a cross, if something has content that offends your sensibilities, you can just leave dude. I can't believe I have to explain this, but every action online is a social contract and you can- at any point- revoke consent to engage and head out if you don't like it. You are the one in charge of what you do/see. But making a big deal out of it when you continue to be here too is just for attention and virtue signaling, let's be honest here. Do you, man. I wasted enough time on this discussion.
@@games-wz7sz Hold up. When in the actual fuck did I compare autistic people to animals?! You put that in there, chief. Fuckin hell, I'm starting to think you're just projecting.
Something that really stimulates the Melvin portion of my brain is when an effect has a good *downside* in addition to its benefit. It creates tradeoffs, choices, and opponent interactions. It's why I generally prefer shroud and ward over hexproof as mechanics.
Your T-sons argument hit exactly right with codex CSM and our system of relics, warlord traits, god marks and legions where you could make units that suited your legion perfectly and had a good use case in game along with having enough of a fun factor to encourage mixing it up And then we got hit with 10th and my beloved iron warriors have recently hit the shelf until we get a codex that enables play that isn't just a shitzlion chosen
Funfact: There's a lore explanation for the rhino thing. In either Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work or the first Dawn of Fire novel (after a while these books sort of blend together in my mind) Cawl mentions that one of the reasons the Primaris technology (not the marines, but, like, all their new tanks and guns that he also designed) is so much better is he did not hobble himself by taking backwards compatibility with previous marine tech into account when designing it -- he made up all new, all-better tech for everything and used it exclusively. So even though they can fit inside, they can't interface with the new targeting or command-and-control elements. Basically he made up a new wifi standard and invented Apple's Lightning connector, and all the oldmarine stuff uses conventional wifi encoding and USB. Primaris Marines can't ride in rhinos because they can't connect to the wifi or even plug in manually.
As a designer by trade, having more design-centered episodes makes me think like I'm working *a bit* when I'm slacking off having an hour long painting break and listening to Poorhammer while working from home - so keep those coming!
I kept hoping Brad would just substitute "[THIS]" after a while. It's how the rules work behind the scenes, so it would be appropriate. Especially for a bottom-up design example.
My faborite Melvin is the Burn Through Laser from Dropfleet Commander. Really the whole game system feels amazing and has a pretty strong Vorthos feel/capability. Its weird because I love the aspects of the game but have not played for a very long time.
Around 15:00 you guys mentioned LVO. Will we get an episode of you guys covering it? Would have love to see your guys reaction of why and how Necrons won the tournament.
We talked about it yesterday, but Eric only watched some Saturday games and the big box cars moment from the finals and by the time we record and release an episode about it most people would have moved on from caring. It's the problem with our schedule. It's just a better topic for others to cover. I will say unrelated to the games: letting Joe cover the finals is a huge win over past years where the coverage for the last rounds would suddenly take a nose dive as WGL wasn't allowed to cover them.
I love these episodes, also thanks for the podcast recommendation. I appreciate mentioning looking at the games in different perspectives. One of my problems with how some people act, when it comes to discussions, is I wish people would also compliment things that they thought the designers did well in addition to their criticism. I understand the idea of "they are designers, their job is to design things well. Why would I compliment them?" But I just think if you like the direction that someone, or a team, is moving in. Then praising the parts of their work that you enjoy is a great way to communicate what you would like to see more of in the future. That's just my little rant.
I appreciate you using the Clue character in Magic-themed cosplay as the stand-in for "mechanically interesting, not necessarily flavorful" player profile.
See this makes me feel a lot better. Im not an idiot for bringing my Death Company heavy Blood Angels list and losing six times to my wife, im just digging into that Vorthos/Spike aspect of me! This was a really fun episode, Poorhammer always makes the day better
I would love to see more of these!! They are pretty much my favorite things you guys have made. It's so interesting to learn about and such a different thing than what other 40k youtubers do.
Plot twist, a full dragon army in AoS (at least when the v3 stormcast codex was released) is a very very spike type list. Being able to move your dragons 12" before the movement phase and still be able to move them later was really something to say the least
This episode gave me so much to think about and I really appreciated it. I mostly engage in Warhammer through video games but I’m getting more into the lore (and hopefully hobbying soon!) in large part due to your podcast as well as Leutin’s videos being one of the only ways I can get to sleep reliably. this concept really helped me understand some of my annoyance when I’m playing Dawn of War and all the heroes are melee and the troops are ranged and I want the heroes to lead squads for lore reasons but I hate that they don’t get to melee as much for gameplay reasons.
We need a serious, no joking life on the line discussion on the following ; -You open a restaurant in the warhammer universe, what food are you serving, what are called? And most importantly what models are your employees? Who are you serving!? Nurglings welcome! (rip hygiene rating) -Its the Olympic games!! Which models / characters / factions (spitballing) are winning which sports? Just spitballing, you guys could talk about the weather and I'd be invested! Love you guys! ❤
-a mobile caravan/pub that follows a Waaagh around to serve non-fungus beer, servers are some squats who are super proud of our beer brewing skills -olympic wrestling is dominated by the oiled up banana boys/custodes
Idea for a future episode, 40k tier list for ease to kitbash/convert armies with @petethewargamer as a guest host Could consider cost, skill, creative range
These types of episodes where you just ramble about stuff are my favorite. I always listen to them when I paint my models so I dont really mind if they're long either
For two episodes in a row now, I am falling more in love with the Vindicator. Not because it’s based on actual tanks, but because it being based on actual tanks tilts out Brad worse than ketchup on a Chicago dog.
A pretty fun episode, and an interesting perspective. Though with them coming from MtG, I feel like the fancy names obscure the fact that this is just a rehash of fluff vs. crunch, at least the way they are usually seen in 40k. If you just talked about how fluffy or crunchy things are, it would be more familiar to WH.
Even before the episode started I was debating sending a joke email complaining about the objective markers, really disguising a compliment. But then to hear that the community helped you have a better week was really nice Brad. Love the show, keep putting in the good work guys.
It needs to be said that I think thhese episodes are my favorites too. I'm always fine with whatever you guys can eek out for the week, but I'm always hoping for these kinds of episodes. Do whatever makes the channel grow, but don't let the views disparity stop you guysa from fighting the good fight!
Thank you all for teaching me about these concepts. Ive been thinking of making some kind of game, and learning about these concepts really helps with boss design and things like that
Usually I'm just a listener, but I gotta say, these are my favorite episodes to listen too. Having you guys deep dive into mechanics is such a treat, and you are able to dumb them down even for me, someone completely blind to the game and it's mechanics. I don't play, probably wont ever due to the price of time and materials, but I love hearing your breakdowns on all things Poorhammer. Thanks for bringing us this awesome content.
This is super interesting to me, its always fun to analyze why we like or play certain things. I definitely have big aspects of Vorthos, lore is a driving force for why I pick my factions. Initially when I first got into 40k ages ago it was before Gorgon was fleshed out and I just made my own custom Hive Fleet that would have slotted in fine there with tons of poison all over the place. In fact most of the time when I find a faction I'm interested in I'll think up my own subfaction with its own quirks and then listbuild around that, its just the most fun way to engage for me. Think the only two times I haven't done that was my ancient nascent Necron list that was based around one dynasty or another and Space Marines. Salamanders are just the coolest thing to me already, so no need to make my own I suppose. I don't really lean into Mel all that much, unless it hits my really specific niche of gameplay. I LOVE debuffs and DoT style play, so that's always a hard draw no matter what. The whole plague and debilitating enemies thing got me super interested in Death Guard, when I never really cared about them as a faction before from their lore. It's why I'm kind of mixed on 10th edition the more I look into it. On the one hand detachments make it super easy to build a custom subfaction, and pick the rules that match it without being tied to the lore that subfaction might have had beforehand, but the lack of unit customization hurts the ability to really dig into the details and sell the theme or lore built up for that creation. It's like being able to take first step but then hitting a wall.
I feel like this is the episode that finally helped me wrap my head around Vorthos and Melvin - they were always a little tricky for me. I think detachments offer an interesting split between Vorthos and Melvin. When the Gladius Task Force was first announced, a lot of people complained that they “Didn’t want to play Ultramarines”. But there was a Melvin part of me that really liked the idea that you could run one detachment this week, and then run the same list in a different detachment the next, especially in Crusade. It may lose that fluffy aspect that every chapter has their own immutable unique rules, but it does a lot to make your army feel adaptable, willing to change their strategy to best meet the needs of a situation.
It's actually better this way, because SM chapters are supposed to be adaptable. They may have their preferences when it comes to tactics, but they still train in all types of warfare, because not every battlefield situation is suited for their favorite tricks. The Ultramarines simply specialize in being generalists.
I tried being a Vorthos in a semi serious tournament. Full destroyer cult (before codex), absolutely zero non-destroyer cult models on the field. I got wiped out by the same list (Necron lychguard death star unit pre codex) twice in a row. It wasn't fun to play against and I wasn't having fun with my list. So, I decided to just stick to playing as a Melvin. I am now bringing 100 necron warriors to the field because I find it funny and the last guy I played against got angry that warriors are busted (Codex). I don't know what I am, I just exist to anger people and play not guard. I will be playing this list in a team tournament with an admech player as my partner. It's the same thing in nearly every wargame I have ever played. Tried to build a lore friendly list for World Eaters in 30k, got smashed by a few dreads. I am now saving money to fill my WE list with angry robo paraplegics. HoS mortals, I'll look around to see what other warbands say what each unit is supposed to do. I got beat by trolls, I will now flood the board with arrow ladies with gimps. Am I a revenge player? Am I just salty that I can't into list building? Am I just insane? I don't know nor care. I've already spent $300 dollars on a Word Bearers list where it's nothing but evil plasma cannons. Who knows what it'll turn into when I get beat, maybe it'll be an alternate time line where the Word Bearers thought tanks were cool and Logar was a Christian nun.
In the Timmy/Johny/Spike video I incorrectly said giving Knights backstories is Johny. It's actually almost all Vorthos. All of my Knights have names, both the pilot and machine. I know roughly what world type each of their home planets is. If I run them as chaos, I know why each of them fell, usually because another Knight tempted them. If you don't name your Knights, you ain't playing them rights!
I love these episodes! I'm not super into WH gameplay but I love the lore & models & design quirks. It's so fun to listen to. Would love more content like this.
Tend to listen on audio rather than TH-cam but thought, would pop on leave a comment. Love these style topics you guys do, reminds me of some of the extra credits stuff, getting a peek into game design decisions is super interesting and the way you guys explain it. Top notch 👍
That's was awesome! I fell asleep after about 12 minutes into the podcast even though I was listening it on x1.5 speed. Highly recommend if you have insomnia.
As someone who only recently really got into Warhammer after tumbling across your channel, I adore hearing opinions from people who have been in the community for so long. I hadn't heard about psychographics before but I really enjoyed this insight into not only the tabletop/magic but how Vorthos/Mel can apply to other things. I would kill to hear about these aspects in the different armies or whatever else you guys put out.
Always a fan of when y'all start bringing game design stuff from mtg to bear on warhammer, as a mtg player who was pulled into warhammer by friends who also play mtg (plus finding your podcast). Lots of love for the episode!
Yu-Gi-Oh straddles the Melvin-vorthos line great (for the most part (looking at you, Valmonica)): each different archetype has a very specific mechanic/game plan that fits the theming and aesthetic design of the cards! For example, the sushi archetype is one rice monster and a number of topping monsters, who can be searched with menus, and all of the boss monsters in the deck are made with different combinations of topping+rice.
I do like hearing about the terminology used in these things, whether it's community-wide (such as everyone knowing what a FNP save was shorthand for even in 8-9Ed) or specific to a group (such as Vorthos & Melvin in this case). It's absolutely entertaining.
The worst part with Crusher is that the solution to both is so simple: Tyranid Monster units at starting strength in synapse roll 3d6 when charging (or +2 move if boring and shooty supporty, either way some movement to represent initial burst of energy when freshly spawned/deployed for the hungry ones along with orders from the hivemind). Tyranid Monster units below starting strength have +1 to hit. (angry) Models in a Tyranid Monster unit gain "Damaged 1-5: Add 2 to the Attack characteristic of this models weapons." replacing any "Damaged" ability of the model. (death throes/feeding frenzy to regen or fulfill their role for the hive) If you want to be fancy, you could add a "enemy must allocate attacks/wounds to the model closest to attacking unit when attacking a tyranid monsters unit, even if a model has existing wounds/had attack allocations" style thing as strat or rule to have multiple 1-5 wounds left damaged monsters, for lore and as a reference joke to old editions by calling it "Shoot the big ones! The ones charging right at us!" but that feels like ripe for schenanigans.
I loved this episode, its always nice to learn a name for something you were already practicing unconsciously. Speaking personally, I converted Possessed into Eightbound to fill my World Eaters army list, appealing to the Melvin part of my brain. As far as Vorthos, I'm considering that the regular Eightbound have the possessed marine actively fighting for control over their body, so the Daemons have more ability to twist and shape them as they please. Meaning once they become Exalted and gain full control, they are actively choosing to look more human. I'm using the Vorthos to justify being a Melvin, s'neat!
Nice! I just saw a kind of similar topic video about "oldhammer" rules (and I started with 4th Ed myself). I'd say 40k went in table sport ("Mel") direction from that time. It's not bad or good, just a change in design. I'd argue though that often there is a tradeoff between focus on rules and on immersion. If GW indeed wants to create a perfect tournament game, then maybe let's branch out a spinoff with casual but immersive top-down rulebook with all the crazy rules for weapon templates, rolling for random effects, vehicle flanking, replacing models on board, using improvised models etc. This way both gamer personas could pick the ruleset they like the most. Also the spinoff edition would need much less maintenance since it wouldn't focus on game balance.. and would of course improve sales of minis to those who stay away from tournaments (including non competitive minis). Just an idea
I know this video isn't going to be as popular as your other stuff (I can't Smash or Pass just came out and already surpassed in views), but I thought this episode was really interesting as both a Magic fan and a 40k fan. These days I'm more into Magic since it's hard for me to make time to paint my minis (not like I'm making much time to play Magic either), but I also appreciate the little Magic connections you guys make in the various episodes. You guys are my goto Magic themed Warhammer podcast.
Also, thanks for talking about Mark Rosewater's Drive to Work podcast. I've been listening to it this past week, and it's been really interesting to hear about the creation of all these different Magic sets and mechanics.
Yu-Gi-Oh straddles the Melvin-vorthos line great (for the most part (valmonica)): each different archetype has a very specific mechanic/game plan that fits the theming and aesthetic design of the cards! For example, the sushi archetype is one rice monster and a number of topping monsters, who can be searched with menus, and all of the boss monsters in the deck are made with different combinations of topping+rice.
Warhammer and Miniature wargaming in general has also two additional archetypes. The Michelangelo. His focus is the painting aspect of the game. And finaly the Mac Gyver, who is obsessed with building, kitbashing and modeling ;-)
Vorthos and Melvin map very cleanly to the idea that rules, especially game rules, are a form of language. The 'Vorthos' element is the content of what is being described, while the 'Melvin' element is the structure of how that description is built. An author who works with fascinating concepts but misspells constantly or builds confusing scenes is high-Vorthos, low-Melvin, while a legal document is often intended to be high-Melvin, low-Vorthos. You can get into grey territory with poetry and with pure abstraction game rulesets, where elements like meter or clever interactions between game entities are both the structure and the message.
My absolute favotrite magic card, and a good example of top down, is 'Deft Duelist' A 2/1 human with First Strike and Hexproof. The mechanics and lore if this card fuse together so perfectly and all without needing a wall of text, just three words and a stat block.
Panglacial + selvala is a genius combination that is unique in that it will get a judge to get your card, usually the wurm, and either tear it in half, toss it in a trashcan or slap you with it and be completely justified
loved the Spike, Yimmy, Johnny episode and i loved this one. I am 100000% more a Vorthos player in 40k i have a little custom chaos legion i like, my own idea for a craft world but i also thanks to this video see my Melvin. i can see those mechanics that make me go "but why tho?". But the Vorthos in me will always wonder WHY AREN"T YOU WEARING YOUR HELMET IN A WARZONE ON SOME RANDOM PLANET AGAINST GIANT SPACE BUGS!!
Funny that the whole WW I/II aesthetic for vehicles was brought up when talking about the modern vehicles. If you look further back at the older half-plastic half-metal models, they were even closer to that aesthetic. (My main source for this was the old Predator turret being very small and round and reminiscent of turrets on smaller WWII-era tank feel. )
Back in 8th (so most of 9th lol) ed Astra Militarum had one named tank commander, I think locked to Cadia, so they tried giving Vorthos a bone there but it seems he got consolidated away alongside the Lord Comissar. Speaking of, back in 8th ed the commissars could take the relic to give them an order, but they didn’t have the keyword that made conscripts have a chance of failing to do as ordered, which was such an amazing flavour win for both the Vorthos and Mel bit of me. Leaky rules sometimes make happy accidents!
Anti-vorthos anti-melvin is the good old classic league of legends/counter strike player. "I hate this stupid game" being the most common phrase you can hear from them, yet they still play it.
To give non-MTG players help understanding why Panglacial Wurm is such a rules headache, imagine if there was a unit in 40k that said "Every time you look at this unit's data sheet, you may put one model on the table."
Reminds me of this guy in a battle report I was watching getting mad that Eldar Jetbikes get three (ineffectual) melee attacks because that’s more then a Space Marine would get. I was just thinking, “Maybe it’s so they don’t embarrass their Jetbike Autarch with a lance as much on the charge since they’re the only unit it can lead”.
I got into warhammer at the end of last January, picking up one of the old Tyranid Combat Patrols. I was deciding what to put on my warriors, and decided on the load out of two with spine fists and claws, one with a lash whip, sword, and talons. My idea was just to send them hurtling towards an enemy, firing shots as they went, and if one or two died, I'd take out the spine fists since they'd be least effective in melee. While they wouldn't be the best up close, they could still theoretically fire on the approach and make up their value that way. I wasn't going for the best load out, I was just looking to have fun. Then tenth came around and said melee and ranged warriors were different and it made me sad :(. At the very least I can still say "The spine fists count as melee weapons" since I have no intention of using them in ranged squad, but it's still a little disappointing. Didn't even get to try it once.
Thank you Poorhammer for articulating why I, a simple british AM/IG player, have loved fielding 25-man platoons in 10th. It's fluffy, it combos all the right rules, and it perfectly does both. Now just let me bring 4 of them for a Company...
Here's an easy example that seperate the two:
Vorthos loves the fact that arc-rifles are anti-vehicle and not anti monster, because electromagnetic gun should mess up technology. Melvin hates that monsters and vehicles are different things in the first place because that means some weapons just don't do thier job against tyrannids.
"laughs in crusher stampede army build"
We went through this during the game Dawn of War 2 that the only Dreadnought/Wraithlord/Carnifex/Deff Dread stompy boi immune to melta bombs was the Carnifex, it was *painful* to deal with Carnis back then with Infantry, unaware with how it was on the table at the time.
Recently had a game where everyone had to stop and realize that the highest toughness unit in our Ork player's list was the Beastboss on Squigosaur (T10), when that list had Ghaz (T6) and deffdreads, buggies, and planes all at T9. This highlighted how every player at the table was pretty Vorthos and confused and upset at this one number in a codex.
Why does the naked man on a pig require higher-quality ordinance than the mega-armored iron man ork or the mech suits?
They've treated Ghaz (among other Orks) so badly I simply can't play a good chunk of my Orks. They just feel so "wrong!"
Big Squig
I don’t even like Orks but Ghaz at T6 just feels wrong on so many levels. Mildly tougher than a space marine? Why?
The Shark boy is funny and adorable
@@CMTechnica I feel like the mistake with Ghaz was having him lead meganobz. That seems to be why they gave him a 6 toughness. Offense wise he's very strong and can wound any datasheet on a 2+ but yeah his toughness just doesn't make sense.
My time being the most annoyed about rules not matching lore is how when the Boarding actions game mode was announced as a T'au player I can not take a Coldstar Commander. The Coldstar suit was designed specifically for void warfare and boarding actions in the Farsight books.
Not a Tau player but that would piss me off.
Like if Terminators couldn’t be used in boarding actions… when that’s literally what the biggest terminator based spin off was about
Something else with Tau that annoys the crap out of me is how way of the short blade has always been treated. Farsight is specificly mentioned as training his subordinates in close quarters combat and with the exception of 9th it's always a better ranged buff because Tau arent allowed to melee
@@cipher4e especially Commander BrightSWORD lol
the most baffling and hilarious part of that is (I assume) you could take farsight himself, yeah? in his personal modified, upgraded coldstar suit? like, normal coldstar suits like the one farsight used in his first book to literally board a battle barge? nah, but farsight in his specific coldstar? A-OK.
I love that the no melee is also something that everything that plays against the t'au hates about them, they should definitely be weak in melee and the best shooting army.. I guess Kroot will come to the rescue?@@cipher4e
i fucking love your podcast, you guys and adeptus ridiculous are life fuel when i have nothing to do, y'all can't even comprehend how much more fun cleaning or cooking becomes once i have these bad boys in my headphones
Comparing them to AR is probably such an ego boost to Brad and Eric since they're likely as big of fans as you are. 😂
Duuuude are we living the same life? 😆 i am so glad to hear someone else watches/listen to both my favourite channels while cooking/doing stuff haha
Take care mate ~
Damn right. That intro music gets me going like a kid watching cartoons
This really helped me understand my conflicting feelings on T'au in 10th.
On Melvin side, I really dig the whole ftgg rule and how it makes the army more strategic, units working together, focus firing and not just 'shoot at whatever until everyone is dead'.
On Vorthos side, however, It is really frustrating to look at 90% of 'deadly T'au guns' and realise how underwhelming their profiles are. Dealing damage by quantity and not quality of shots, really makes you feel like a slightly better imperial guard
Brad: *wholesome thanks for our autistic shitposting*
Us: "I don't know, I never thought I'd get this far."
@games-wz7sz It's my disability too and has been joked about on the show before. I'm sorry if the joke hurt your feelings, but this seems a pretty selective time to be upset about it, given we're on a channel that has had similar jokes in its content.
@@games-wz7sz it really scares me how many people are killed by language every year.
@games-wz7sz So if you have problems with that content too, then legitimately, why are you even here? Christ on a cross, if something has content that offends your sensibilities, you can just leave dude. I can't believe I have to explain this, but every action online is a social contract and you can- at any point- revoke consent to engage and head out if you don't like it. You are the one in charge of what you do/see. But making a big deal out of it when you continue to be here too is just for attention and virtue signaling, let's be honest here.
Do you, man. I wasted enough time on this discussion.
@@games-wz7sz Hold up. When in the actual fuck did I compare autistic people to animals?! You put that in there, chief. Fuckin hell, I'm starting to think you're just projecting.
Hold up. You can NOT equate autism jokes in modern day to jews (undesirables) during the holocaust.
Something that really stimulates the Melvin portion of my brain is when an effect has a good *downside* in addition to its benefit. It creates tradeoffs, choices, and opponent interactions. It's why I generally prefer shroud and ward over hexproof as mechanics.
Your T-sons argument hit exactly right with codex CSM and our system of relics, warlord traits, god marks and legions where you could make units that suited your legion perfectly and had a good use case in game along with having enough of a fun factor to encourage mixing it up
And then we got hit with 10th and my beloved iron warriors have recently hit the shelf until we get a codex that enables play that isn't just a shitzlion chosen
Funfact: There's a lore explanation for the rhino thing.
In either Belisarius Cawl: The Great Work or the first Dawn of Fire novel (after a while these books sort of blend together in my mind) Cawl mentions that one of the reasons the Primaris technology (not the marines, but, like, all their new tanks and guns that he also designed) is so much better is he did not hobble himself by taking backwards compatibility with previous marine tech into account when designing it -- he made up all new, all-better tech for everything and used it exclusively. So even though they can fit inside, they can't interface with the new targeting or command-and-control elements.
Basically he made up a new wifi standard and invented Apple's Lightning connector, and all the oldmarine stuff uses conventional wifi encoding and USB. Primaris Marines can't ride in rhinos because they can't connect to the wifi or even plug in manually.
So Cawl is Steve Jobs. That tracks
@@KillerOrca oh fuck he totally is, pompus self engrandisement, big marketing shows and everything.
Honestly that feels like bottom up design. Something to justify getting rid of old marines from the lineup entirely.
@@giraton1 The only difference is that Cawl actually makes his own stuff
What are you doing for episode 100? Smash or pass on every character model?
Pass on Angron
Smash Asmodai
@@CMTechnica Nah man Asmodai would smash _YOU._
With his crozius.
Over your head.
Do you think nurgle is a top or bottom?
@@Fofostarfighter I hate the fact that Great Unclean Ones canonically have done this
@@Fofostarfighter He's a top, but his followers are bottoms.
As a designer by trade, having more design-centered episodes makes me think like I'm working *a bit* when I'm slacking off having an hour long painting break and listening to Poorhammer while working from home - so keep those coming!
This
Panglacial Wurm left me in stitches lmao
I think you meant Plangay, plangla, pangay, pangshell... Wurm lol
I kept hoping Brad would just substitute "[THIS]" after a while. It's how the rules work behind the scenes, so it would be appropriate. Especially for a bottom-up design example.
I can’t wait until we get an episode recorded after LVO, so we can hear the reaction to the monolith- sorry, piece of terrain, winning the game.
The visual gag of putting the Genestealer cults codex in Melvin’s hand is excellent and I applaud whomever made such a visionary choice.
Omfg I laughed so hard at Brad messing up panglacial wurm 😂😂😂
My faborite Melvin is the Burn Through Laser from Dropfleet Commander. Really the whole game system feels amazing and has a pretty strong Vorthos feel/capability. Its weird because I love the aspects of the game but have not played for a very long time.
Episodes like this are some of my favorites. It offers a perspective that I don't get as much from other 40K content creators.
Around 15:00 you guys mentioned LVO. Will we get an episode of you guys covering it? Would have love to see your guys reaction of why and how Necrons won the tournament.
We talked about it yesterday, but Eric only watched some Saturday games and the big box cars moment from the finals and by the time we record and release an episode about it most people would have moved on from caring. It's the problem with our schedule. It's just a better topic for others to cover. I will say unrelated to the games: letting Joe cover the finals is a huge win over past years where the coverage for the last rounds would suddenly take a nose dive as WGL wasn't allowed to cover them.
I love these episodes, also thanks for the podcast recommendation. I appreciate mentioning looking at the games in different perspectives.
One of my problems with how some people act, when it comes to discussions, is I wish people would also compliment things that they thought the designers did well in addition to their criticism. I understand the idea of "they are designers, their job is to design things well. Why would I compliment them?" But I just think if you like the direction that someone, or a team, is moving in. Then praising the parts of their work that you enjoy is a great way to communicate what you would like to see more of in the future. That's just my little rant.
I appreciate you using the Clue character in Magic-themed cosplay as the stand-in for "mechanically interesting, not necessarily flavorful" player profile.
Funny timing considering the latest Magic set too.
See this makes me feel a lot better. Im not an idiot for bringing my Death Company heavy Blood Angels list and losing six times to my wife, im just digging into that Vorthos/Spike aspect of me!
This was a really fun episode, Poorhammer always makes the day better
I would love to see more of these!! They are pretty much my favorite things you guys have made. It's so interesting to learn about and such a different thing than what other 40k youtubers do.
Plot twist, a full dragon army in AoS (at least when the v3 stormcast codex was released) is a very very spike type list. Being able to move your dragons 12" before the movement phase and still be able to move them later was really something to say the least
This episode gave me so much to think about and I really appreciated it. I mostly engage in Warhammer through video games but I’m getting more into the lore (and hopefully hobbying soon!) in large part due to your podcast as well as Leutin’s videos being one of the only ways I can get to sleep reliably.
this concept really helped me understand some of my annoyance when I’m playing Dawn of War and all the heroes are melee and the troops are ranged and I want the heroes to lead squads for lore reasons but I hate that they don’t get to melee as much for gameplay reasons.
We need a serious, no joking life on the line discussion on the following ;
-You open a restaurant in the warhammer universe, what food are you serving, what are called? And most importantly what models are your employees? Who are you serving!? Nurglings welcome! (rip hygiene rating)
-Its the Olympic games!! Which models / characters / factions (spitballing) are winning which sports?
Just spitballing, you guys could talk about the weather and I'd be invested! Love you guys! ❤
Depends how many orks are in the audience
- serving artisanal tyranid to rouge traders and imperial nobles
- Eldar would NAIL track and field
-a mobile caravan/pub that follows a Waaagh around to serve non-fungus beer, servers are some squats who are super proud of our beer brewing skills
-olympic wrestling is dominated by the oiled up banana boys/custodes
A bakery staffed by ratlings who are actually weapons dealers. On the one hand, the sticky buns are inexplicably delicious......
"Its the Olympic games!!"
I think you mean "Games Day!" Great idea, BTW!
I heard this one didn’t do as well as you hoped, so I came back to watch it and enjoyed the topic! Keep doing what you guys enjoy!
Idea for a future episode, 40k tier list for ease to kitbash/convert armies with @petethewargamer as a guest host
Could consider cost, skill, creative range
These types of episodes where you just ramble about stuff are my favorite. I always listen to them when I paint my models so I dont really mind if they're long either
For two episodes in a row now, I am falling more in love with the Vindicator. Not because it’s based on actual tanks, but because it being based on actual tanks tilts out Brad worse than ketchup on a Chicago dog.
I like the vindicator because it has a shovel and a big gun. And it does not look over-the-top meched out. Good ol' reliable tank.
It was the Spike, Timmy, and Johnny episode that got me into this show in the first place. I love these episodes, please don't stop!
You know it’s gonna be a good day when your favorite podcast puts up a new episode, look forward to watching/hearing this after work!!!
Im sad to hear this one didnt perform as well, I absolutely LOVE to see yalls game design sides come out, its such an interesting topic.
A pretty fun episode, and an interesting perspective. Though with them coming from MtG, I feel like the fancy names obscure the fact that this is just a rehash of fluff vs. crunch, at least the way they are usually seen in 40k. If you just talked about how fluffy or crunchy things are, it would be more familiar to WH.
Even before the episode started I was debating sending a joke email complaining about the objective markers, really disguising a compliment. But then to hear that the community helped you have a better week was really nice Brad. Love the show, keep putting in the good work guys.
It needs to be said that I think thhese episodes are my favorites too. I'm always fine with whatever you guys can eek out for the week, but I'm always hoping for these kinds of episodes. Do whatever makes the channel grow, but don't let the views disparity stop you guysa from fighting the good fight!
Thank you all for teaching me about these concepts. Ive been thinking of making some kind of game, and learning about these concepts really helps with boss design and things like that
These sorts of episodes are far and away my favorites. Never feel too bad about making another informative game design video :)
Usually I'm just a listener, but I gotta say, these are my favorite episodes to listen too. Having you guys deep dive into mechanics is such a treat, and you are able to dumb them down even for me, someone completely blind to the game and it's mechanics. I don't play, probably wont ever due to the price of time and materials, but I love hearing your breakdowns on all things Poorhammer. Thanks for bringing us this awesome content.
This was one of my favorite episodes! Now I’m going to go look through your backlog for more episodes like this one!
This is super interesting to me, its always fun to analyze why we like or play certain things. I definitely have big aspects of Vorthos, lore is a driving force for why I pick my factions. Initially when I first got into 40k ages ago it was before Gorgon was fleshed out and I just made my own custom Hive Fleet that would have slotted in fine there with tons of poison all over the place. In fact most of the time when I find a faction I'm interested in I'll think up my own subfaction with its own quirks and then listbuild around that, its just the most fun way to engage for me. Think the only two times I haven't done that was my ancient nascent Necron list that was based around one dynasty or another and Space Marines. Salamanders are just the coolest thing to me already, so no need to make my own I suppose.
I don't really lean into Mel all that much, unless it hits my really specific niche of gameplay. I LOVE debuffs and DoT style play, so that's always a hard draw no matter what. The whole plague and debilitating enemies thing got me super interested in Death Guard, when I never really cared about them as a faction before from their lore.
It's why I'm kind of mixed on 10th edition the more I look into it. On the one hand detachments make it super easy to build a custom subfaction, and pick the rules that match it without being tied to the lore that subfaction might have had beforehand, but the lack of unit customization hurts the ability to really dig into the details and sell the theme or lore built up for that creation. It's like being able to take first step but then hitting a wall.
As a seasoned MTG player, this was a nice way to frame these topics for 40k and really enjoyed your takes on the subject.
I feel like this is the episode that finally helped me wrap my head around Vorthos and Melvin - they were always a little tricky for me.
I think detachments offer an interesting split between Vorthos and Melvin. When the Gladius Task Force was first announced, a lot of people complained that they “Didn’t want to play Ultramarines”. But there was a Melvin part of me that really liked the idea that you could run one detachment this week, and then run the same list in a different detachment the next, especially in Crusade.
It may lose that fluffy aspect that every chapter has their own immutable unique rules, but it does a lot to make your army feel adaptable, willing to change their strategy to best meet the needs of a situation.
It's actually better this way, because SM chapters are supposed to be adaptable. They may have their preferences when it comes to tactics, but they still train in all types of warfare, because not every battlefield situation is suited for their favorite tricks. The Ultramarines simply specialize in being generalists.
I tried being a Vorthos in a semi serious tournament. Full destroyer cult (before codex), absolutely zero non-destroyer cult models on the field. I got wiped out by the same list (Necron lychguard death star unit pre codex) twice in a row. It wasn't fun to play against and I wasn't having fun with my list. So, I decided to just stick to playing as a Melvin.
I am now bringing 100 necron warriors to the field because I find it funny and the last guy I played against got angry that warriors are busted (Codex). I don't know what I am, I just exist to anger people and play not guard. I will be playing this list in a team tournament with an admech player as my partner.
It's the same thing in nearly every wargame I have ever played. Tried to build a lore friendly list for World Eaters in 30k, got smashed by a few dreads. I am now saving money to fill my WE list with angry robo paraplegics. HoS mortals, I'll look around to see what other warbands say what each unit is supposed to do. I got beat by trolls, I will now flood the board with arrow ladies with gimps. Am I a revenge player? Am I just salty that I can't into list building? Am I just insane? I don't know nor care. I've already spent $300 dollars on a Word Bearers list where it's nothing but evil plasma cannons. Who knows what it'll turn into when I get beat, maybe it'll be an alternate time line where the Word Bearers thought tanks were cool and Logar was a Christian nun.
In the Timmy/Johny/Spike video I incorrectly said giving Knights backstories is Johny. It's actually almost all Vorthos.
All of my Knights have names, both the pilot and machine. I know roughly what world type each of their home planets is. If I run them as chaos, I know why each of them fell, usually because another Knight tempted them. If you don't name your Knights, you ain't playing them rights!
I like this, you guys may ramble a bit but that's what makes these fun and understandable
Very cool, very swag. Love episodes like this.
I love these episodes! I'm not super into WH gameplay but I love the lore & models & design quirks. It's so fun to listen to. Would love more content like this.
"That doesn't cure the fact that it looks stupid" is a conversation I've had to have MANY a time.
Tend to listen on audio rather than TH-cam but thought, would pop on leave a comment. Love these style topics you guys do, reminds me of some of the extra credits stuff, getting a peek into game design decisions is super interesting and the way you guys explain it. Top notch 👍
Love this kind of topic. Very interesting and fun! Y’all are keeping me alive at work in the slow season
That's was awesome! I fell asleep after about 12 minutes into the podcast even though I was listening it on x1.5 speed.
Highly recommend if you have insomnia.
As someone who only recently really got into Warhammer after tumbling across your channel, I adore hearing opinions from people who have been in the community for so long. I hadn't heard about psychographics before but I really enjoyed this insight into not only the tabletop/magic but how Vorthos/Mel can apply to other things. I would kill to hear about these aspects in the different armies or whatever else you guys put out.
I like these more than the tier list cuz yall actually talk more and think about it more
Always a fan of when y'all start bringing game design stuff from mtg to bear on warhammer, as a mtg player who was pulled into warhammer by friends who also play mtg (plus finding your podcast). Lots of love for the episode!
Great show. I really liked your takes on this topic and explaining that you can be Mel and vorthos at the same time.
Thank you for the episode. It is an interesting insight that I've not really explored too deeply as a general concept.
There's a whole lot of high melvin spikes that I would like to see spiked on a cross. Sincerely, relatively low melvin high vorthos timmy.
Hey guys - Just wanted to say I really liked this episode, it was a super interesting topic that I knew nothing about prior. Thanks : )
This was an amazing video. I am definitely VERY interested and excited about these kinds of topics! Keep em coming if other ppl feel the same ❤
Congrats on 99 episodes. Looking forward to what you have planned for e100
Great episode - never played Magic but the pull of Lore and interesting games mechanics is something I definitely recognise
This was a super fun video to listen to while on the subway! Cant wait for the next one
I love these types of episodes so much
Yu-Gi-Oh straddles the Melvin-vorthos line great (for the most part (looking at you, Valmonica)): each different archetype has a very specific mechanic/game plan that fits the theming and aesthetic design of the cards! For example, the sushi archetype is one rice monster and a number of topping monsters, who can be searched with menus, and all of the boss monsters in the deck are made with different combinations of topping+rice.
Unfortunately, YGO fails at the secret third aesthetic profile of Me, who wants a game with a comprehensible UX.
@@Pseudoscorpion14 eeeaaaahhh, you eventually learn the phrases to subconsciously blip out
Thanks for featuring my jank krieg models!
Love this podcast. Thanks for getting me into this hobby making my days at work go by quicker!
I do like hearing about the terminology used in these things, whether it's community-wide (such as everyone knowing what a FNP save was shorthand for even in 8-9Ed) or specific to a group (such as Vorthos & Melvin in this case). It's absolutely entertaining.
Yogscast Tom and Ben played horde mode adapted for age of sigmar!!!! Great video and noice game mode!
I just watched this! lol Thanks for the heads up.
@@thepoorhammerpodcast noice noice, was great fun. Hope you enjoyed it as much as me.
I really love the in-depth dive into game mechanics and feel good stuff. It's very insightful and interesting
I like the informative podcasts where you dispense information
The worst part with Crusher is that the solution to both is so simple:
Tyranid Monster units at starting strength in synapse roll 3d6 when charging (or +2 move if boring and shooty supporty, either way some movement to represent initial burst of energy when freshly spawned/deployed for the hungry ones along with orders from the hivemind).
Tyranid Monster units below starting strength have +1 to hit. (angry)
Models in a Tyranid Monster unit gain "Damaged 1-5: Add 2 to the Attack characteristic of this models weapons." replacing any "Damaged" ability of the model. (death throes/feeding frenzy to regen or fulfill their role for the hive)
If you want to be fancy, you could add a "enemy must allocate attacks/wounds to the model closest to attacking unit when attacking a tyranid monsters unit, even if a model has existing wounds/had attack allocations" style thing as strat or rule to have multiple 1-5 wounds left damaged monsters, for lore and as a reference joke to old editions by calling it "Shoot the big ones! The ones charging right at us!" but that feels like ripe for schenanigans.
I loved this episode, its always nice to learn a name for something you were already practicing unconsciously.
Speaking personally, I converted Possessed into Eightbound to fill my World Eaters army list, appealing to the Melvin part of my brain. As far as Vorthos, I'm considering that the regular Eightbound have the possessed marine actively fighting for control over their body, so the Daemons have more ability to twist and shape them as they please. Meaning once they become Exalted and gain full control, they are actively choosing to look more human.
I'm using the Vorthos to justify being a Melvin, s'neat!
This was interesting as hell. Thanks for this episode.
The game design and psychology episodes are super-duper interesting and yall should do more
Nice! I just saw a kind of similar topic video about "oldhammer" rules (and I started with 4th Ed myself). I'd say 40k went in table sport ("Mel") direction from that time. It's not bad or good, just a change in design. I'd argue though that often there is a tradeoff between focus on rules and on immersion. If GW indeed wants to create a perfect tournament game, then maybe let's branch out a spinoff with casual but immersive top-down rulebook with all the crazy rules for weapon templates, rolling for random effects, vehicle flanking, replacing models on board, using improvised models etc. This way both gamer personas could pick the ruleset they like the most. Also the spinoff edition would need much less maintenance since it wouldn't focus on game balance.. and would of course improve sales of minis to those who stay away from tournaments (including non competitive minis). Just an idea
My best friend showed me this podcast last week and oh fuck it's skyrocketed to something I listen to everyday
Short but sweet episode this week. I loved it
Love these types of episodes!
Absolutely love this type of content!
I know this video isn't going to be as popular as your other stuff (I can't Smash or Pass just came out and already surpassed in views), but I thought this episode was really interesting as both a Magic fan and a 40k fan.
These days I'm more into Magic since it's hard for me to make time to paint my minis (not like I'm making much time to play Magic either), but I also appreciate the little Magic connections you guys make in the various episodes.
You guys are my goto Magic themed Warhammer podcast.
Also, thanks for talking about Mark Rosewater's Drive to Work podcast. I've been listening to it this past week, and it's been really interesting to hear about the creation of all these different Magic sets and mechanics.
Yu-Gi-Oh straddles the Melvin-vorthos line great (for the most part (valmonica)): each different archetype has a very specific mechanic/game plan that fits the theming and aesthetic design of the cards! For example, the sushi archetype is one rice monster and a number of topping monsters, who can be searched with menus, and all of the boss monsters in the deck are made with different combinations of topping+rice.
Warhammer and Miniature wargaming in general has also two additional archetypes. The Michelangelo. His focus is the painting aspect of the game. And finaly the Mac Gyver, who is obsessed with building, kitbashing and modeling ;-)
I need more episodes like this :0
Vorthos and Melvin map very cleanly to the idea that rules, especially game rules, are a form of language. The 'Vorthos' element is the content of what is being described, while the 'Melvin' element is the structure of how that description is built. An author who works with fascinating concepts but misspells constantly or builds confusing scenes is high-Vorthos, low-Melvin, while a legal document is often intended to be high-Melvin, low-Vorthos. You can get into grey territory with poetry and with pure abstraction game rulesets, where elements like meter or clever interactions between game entities are both the structure and the message.
My absolute favotrite magic card, and a good example of top down, is 'Deft Duelist'
A 2/1 human with First Strike and Hexproof. The mechanics and lore if this card fuse together so perfectly and all without needing a wall of text, just three words and a stat block.
Panglacial + selvala is a genius combination that is unique in that it will get a judge to get your card, usually the wurm, and either tear it in half, toss it in a trashcan or slap you with it and be completely justified
I hadn’t heard of these terms before. I learned something new today.
A new episode, the best birthday gift I could ask for
Happy birthday!
loved the Spike, Yimmy, Johnny episode and i loved this one. I am 100000% more a Vorthos player in 40k i have a little custom chaos legion i like, my own idea for a craft world but i also thanks to this video see my Melvin. i can see those mechanics that make me go "but why tho?". But the Vorthos in me will always wonder WHY AREN"T YOU WEARING YOUR HELMET IN A WARZONE ON SOME RANDOM PLANET AGAINST GIANT SPACE BUGS!!
Funny that the whole WW I/II aesthetic for vehicles was brought up when talking about the modern vehicles. If you look further back at the older half-plastic half-metal models, they were even closer to that aesthetic. (My main source for this was the old Predator turret being very small and round and reminiscent of turrets on smaller WWII-era tank feel. )
Back in 8th (so most of 9th lol) ed Astra Militarum had one named tank commander, I think locked to Cadia, so they tried giving Vorthos a bone there but it seems he got consolidated away alongside the Lord Comissar.
Speaking of, back in 8th ed the commissars could take the relic to give them an order, but they didn’t have the keyword that made conscripts have a chance of failing to do as ordered, which was such an amazing flavour win for both the Vorthos and Mel bit of me. Leaky rules sometimes make happy accidents!
Anti-vorthos anti-melvin is the good old classic league of legends/counter strike player. "I hate this stupid game" being the most common phrase you can hear from them, yet they still play it.
To give non-MTG players help understanding why Panglacial Wurm is such a rules headache, imagine if there was a unit in 40k that said "Every time you look at this unit's data sheet, you may put one model on the table."
28:00 vorthos likes that angron can come back, melvin would rather have it once per game and not be random of sometimes you just get 3 6s
Reminds me of this guy in a battle report I was watching getting mad that Eldar Jetbikes get three (ineffectual) melee attacks because that’s more then a Space Marine would get. I was just thinking, “Maybe it’s so they don’t embarrass their Jetbike Autarch with a lance as much on the charge since they’re the only unit it can lead”.
I got into warhammer at the end of last January, picking up one of the old Tyranid Combat Patrols. I was deciding what to put on my warriors, and decided on the load out of two with spine fists and claws, one with a lash whip, sword, and talons. My idea was just to send them hurtling towards an enemy, firing shots as they went, and if one or two died, I'd take out the spine fists since they'd be least effective in melee. While they wouldn't be the best up close, they could still theoretically fire on the approach and make up their value that way. I wasn't going for the best load out, I was just looking to have fun.
Then tenth came around and said melee and ranged warriors were different and it made me sad :(. At the very least I can still say "The spine fists count as melee weapons" since I have no intention of using them in ranged squad, but it's still a little disappointing. Didn't even get to try it once.
These are very interesting videos by all means do more!
I absaloutly enjoy these type of episodes
Thank god the thumbnail got changed on this lmao
Thank you Poorhammer for articulating why I, a simple british AM/IG player, have loved fielding 25-man platoons in 10th. It's fluffy, it combos all the right rules, and it perfectly does both. Now just let me bring 4 of them for a Company...