A note about Glorfindel - in the book The Fellowship of the Ring he rode to Frodo's rescue when the Nazgul pursued him (he was replaced with Arwen in the movie.) In the Silmarillion he slew a Balrog at the Battle of Gondolin and lived, so yeah he's pretty awesome. (Back me up here Tolkien loremasters)
The Glorfindel who killed the Balrog actually died and I think Tolkien never cleared whether he came back (like Gandalf) or whether he was another Glorfindel. You are right though, 2nd/3rd Age Glorfindel is still one of the greatest Elves to live in that period. 😉
@@nilswolff5755 I stand corrected - he did die, just like Gandalf did when he faced the Balrog of Moria; but according to later writings of Tolkien he came back to life and indeed was the one that helped Frodo (I think the book was titled The Peoples of Middle Earth)
@@elrondorioNow I think this is quickly turning into semantics here, but that book wasn't published in his days (like many) but actually put together by his son and was taken from bare notes on the character. So did Tolkien write it as a possibility, yes. Did he deem it the final version, we do not know. I think Galadriels story had something like 3 iterations over time as well for example. Me personally, I firmly believe they both should be the same Glorfindel, because that would flesh out that character more and would just make him more awesome.
Glorfindel is pretty much the default best hero in the 3rd age. The story just isn't really about him. It's about men and their legacy while elves leave Middle Earth. There's also no real villain for Glorfindel to fight. Glorfindel also came up with the lore on the Witch King stating that you will die at the hands of no living man. Being a clairvoyant. He also died to the Balrog but was brought back like Gandalf by the gods or Eru Ilúvatar. (God). Galadriel was the default person behind the scenes but another mistake folks make that she is not the oldest Elf on Middle Earth. In fact that's Cirdan who has fashioned boats to attempt to find the way to heaven. The Elves had lost the ability to sale to heaven which he then finds. He leaves his ring to Gandalf when he embarks on that journey. Basically this guy is a legend, but isn't in the story at all. Except for being the oldest Elf on the planet.
It's actually a really, really good game. There was speculation that the rules would become the next Warhammer ruleset. It's a shame that didn't happen. But it's still a great game.
It’s just an updated rule book. It’s not invalidating anything. I’ve played lotr for 20 years with no issues. The game has benefitted from being ignored for a long time as the game is largely unchanged since 1st edition. Ultimately if it makes it easier for people to get into the game then that’s a good thing. Imagine seasonal updates like 40k and AOS. It’s a largely narrative game and as long as gw remember that and keep publishing lots of scenarios as well as the competitive garbage then I’ll be happy. The new character models are also great, and needed. Hopefully they will keep what they are currently doing and keep the core rules the same and release supplements with scenarios and books containing all the relevant profiles. If only 40k and aos had the same ecosystem instead of the current nonsense.
Horses for courses i suppose. I have all the Rohan I could ever need as my gaming has focused on that section of the book and hate the spirits as they wrecked that part of the movie and made the sacrifice of the Rohan pointless. I’m Ready to move on to Minas Tirith now and the new box set will help facilitate that. From that point of view the new box is a winner for me, price depending of course.
Wouldn't it be awesome if we could all. Enjoy games in out own way rather than being a bunch of gate keeping douche bags that always have to be right...come on guys remember we're all neuro-divergent.. Let's at least try to let other people have fun.
My takeaway from this is that Discourse hasn't read any of the books (and doesn't sound like she intends to). That makes her even more of a rarity in the nerd community.
I read lotr when I was 7ish back in the 70s then proceeded to the rest of the series ( read the Hobbit at 11) sadly like many fandoms so called fans only use the movies or TV shows as total references ( and act like they know everything about the franchise 🤣) while it's not required for the games as the old magazines explained rules of engagement and provided figures the books expand on events " great for skirmishes" but like most things in life people grow up and away from such things until they become "COOL and relevant again" then they act like they were always into whatever the subject is ( my books ,merch and miniatures will remain in the storage box I placed them in forever sealed 🤫 but the lore remains in my head 🤓) am I excited about the new show 🤣NO same as the inevitable tie ups to cash in on the trend my money will go to better things I've spent enough thanks I've 15 other universes that needs attention 🤔✌️
GW's had a role in the decline of MESBG during the One Ring and Hobbit films. They reboxed the troops and halved the amount of units you get in the box at same price. At the time people where building to play the One Ring, a larger scale version of the game and there was alot of community backlash. The prices of the Hobbit armies did not help, as well as the reception to the films. It was a dark time but fortunately they went back on this. Im excited for the updated book but will be looking for that GW price bump to see if its worth it.
I played LOTR from its release up until about 2010 when GW just let it go to hell. The War of the Ring large scale game seemed to me (and a lot of other people) just a way to ring more money out of LOTR players buy selling them more models. The rules themselves were a trainwreck on release. they were basically unplayable and needed a large errata to function at all.
@@patinho5589 Mechanically it was terrible, it obviously wasn’t playtested at all. From the start there were issues with stuff like movement and facing! Magic was also ridiculously unbalanced.
See, I stopped after 2nd Ed 40k as the game pretty much completely changed. It wasn't that skirmish game I loved and some of the armies were going a bit too cartoony.
@@ChristopherSmith-dq2xs That's fair, Warhammer was already well into 4th by the time I was able to start playing it. If you have two armies though, people can be surprisingly open to older games if you ask them. I'd try second edition but my main army is T'au which wouldn't convert easily.
Discourse you have to remember that it was the Perry brothers that designed most of the Games Workshop Lord of the Rings range at the insistence of Peter Jackson. If you're eagle-eyed you can see the Perry brothers playing Corpses on the Pelinor fields. They are used to making miniatures for the Long Haul. Look how long their historicals have been on the market and just how long they are still amongst the best on the market. I frankly wouldn't have a Russian Napoleonic Army without them. I've never played the Lord of the Rings game mostly because I do not have any opponents and the few who have said anything about it or take one look at my Rohan Army and decide to move on to something smaller.
@@scepteredisle I'd have to dig them out but I believe that there are at least 10 or 11 Heroes there is the royal guard of rohan, there are foot soldiers, and Riders of Rohan. Finally there were Defenders of Helms Deep. Over the years I have ended up with easily over 200 simply because there is something about the design and the execution that speaks to me.
@@scepteredisle no the Rohan range is much larger I believe they're like 10 or 11 hero models there's the Royal Guards mounted and dismounted there are the Riders of Rohan, dismounted riders of Rohan, a couple of specialty sets and then from Forge World there was some Helms Deep and stuff made.. personally I really enjoy the aesthetic and the models and over the years I have just added more and more to it so I would say my Rohan Force could easily put out two to 300 figures. I've never been involved with a group that plays it so to me it was just a collecting and display piece
So GW "KILLED" MSEBG by announcing a new starter box, models for Glorfindel and Elrond and start collecting boxes for 4 of the main factions. There's a gap in the logic here
So just to rebuttal you: 1. GW haven’t overlooked MESBG for years. Yes I was for a few after the hobbit, but it has still been huge for the last 4 years odd. Getting continuous support, models, FAQ’s and everything. 2. Sat on the same rules? There has been big changes since 2001. Like BIG CHANGES! Yes it has the same base idea, but so has 40k, AoS and 30k kept their same base ideas for years years 😅 3. I would say a “basic bitch” MESBG player isn’t an Isenguard player, it’s a Rohan player. 4. I wouldn’t say Pelennor Fields starter set is the best ever made. It came with 3 factions that were only half there. Missing models that would be needed to field them legally. The Rohan army (see point 3) we’re the best ones for legal lists. 5. The Gondor list isn’t legal. Yup. That’s fair. But legal lists doesn’t matter when it comes to the narrative scenarios which is what the box rules includes. If you want to make a legal list from it, then you obviously have to buy more models because, well it’s a starter set. It’s somewhere to start. 6. Locked in models? They’ll be exclusive models to the box for a few months and then they’ll be released separately. Just like Theoden was with “the best starter set ever”. 7. No I would not like you to do a video on MESBG. Judging by the way you do your videos, you would just make all the enjoyment and excitement out of it and I would rather not have that publicity for a game I love. 8. New rule book coming out separately isn’t a problem because the Gandalf rule book is still legal and legit. The Sauron one is just easier. Nothing more than that. 9. With the Battleforce Boxes, I’m glad you finally have something positive to say. 10. They have said already that the Battleforce boxes are coming with a discount. 11. Glorfindel being a book only character and then showing a picture of the movie? 🤦♂️😂 12. I agree. I can’t seem to find the Two Towers preview. A little disappointed in that bit. 13. It wasn’t as much as is shown off for 40k? That’s because 40k is a main line game and MESBG is a specialist game… like Warcry, or Kill Team, or Underworlds. And this preview showed off considerably more than those games. 14. Gothmog is a new profile. They confirmed that. 15. No new troops? Look at that elf banner again. 16. Yes it is an army level game, but you also need no where near as many models for your MESBG Army as you do for other games. An 800 points Army has roughly 40 models in it. That’s completely different to your standard 2000 points 40k/AoS Army and their model count. Thanks for this video though. Any publicity is good publicity for the game I love. If possible, keep the negativity away though. It’s not required :)
Rohan has been fixed and gained in popularity after this recent edition, but Isengard is still the basic bitch. Most common army though is Minas Tirith slightly ahead of Isengard. Glorfindel wasn't in the films, but that background character looks close enough to be him.
Just to put a bit of perspective on it: Sure, the Pelennor set had a lot of minis in it, but it also didn't have any scenery. In terms of an actual 'starter' set, the newer set could actually be better value if it comes in that the 'Pelennor ballpark' they said it would. It's also providing more in the way of playable contents than the new WarCry set (twice as many minis for roughly the same price). There's a lot you can take GW to task for (they really need to look at the likes of Mantic and AMG to see how starters boxes should be), but to be honest, if they don't get stupid with the pricing then the new set and the Battlehost boxes are definitely a step in the right direction
A someone who might get into it, the Isengard battlehost being pretty much a full army for the price of a start collecting box is pretty awesome. Shame that the new starter is already out of production.
@@katelystt Not actually out of production - pre-orders for it went live for 14 days a couple of months back and then closed (which is getting to be pretty common GW practise now), but the actual release date for it isn't until December 17th. 3rd party retailers are still taking pre-orders for it, and GW just sent Zorpazorp 25 boxes of it for free th-cam.com/video/5x1YPWcQtH0/w-d-xo.html so I don't think they're running out any time soon...
@@katelystt Curiously, this seems to be the only line they don't do that with (possibly because they're having to pay for the license, so want to milk it for all it's worth). It pretty much stands alone amongst all of the GW mainline products in that it's only had 4 'editions' since 2001 (with an 'edition' released with each of the first three movies) and has been largely unchanged since 2005 (the 2018 edition when the whole thing was rebranded as ME:SBG is pretty much all the previous supplements and FAQ/errata rolled in and the 2022 version included in the new starter set contains all of the supplements and FAQ/errata released after that). That's one of the reasons that I disagree with Discourse and think that the Osgiliath box is a much better deal than the Pelennor one; sure, Pelennor had more minis, but the new box has a full, updated rulebook, two pretty balanced armies, scenery, all the game tools and a mini campaign dealing with the actual battle from the story (weighted heavily to force the campaign to conclude in the same way the battle does, but I think that's a lot more thematic). Simply put, 'Battle for Osgiliath' is designed for you to start playing ME:SBG 'Battle of Pelennor Fields' was designed for you to start spending money with Games Workshop...
My introduction to Games Workshop was actually Middle Earth. As a kid I wandered into a GW in the mall and they were playing in this massive center table. The GW worker was trying to teach me how the Rider's of Rohan worked but I was distracted by how beautiful the minis were. Fast forward to now I'm finally thinking about painting some.
Pelennor is great value (for GW) but it doesn't work well as an introduction to the game. The witch king on nazgul is a cool looking model, but being primarily a magic user it's not a beginner friendly hero. And they don't include a dismounted version which is just rude. Also, although there are rules for allying different armies together, including 3 separate armies is just adding confusion. Osgiliath is definitely a much better _starter_ set. The heroes are all beginner friendly, and with more than 1 hero on the good side that half at least is much closer to being legal (but yes, technically too many bows). We don't know about price yet, but in terms of content it is very similar, just with one of the three armies swapped out for brand new terrain - much more sensible for a starter set. The Pellenor set had lots of plastic, but the only thing that was actually new was Theoden. The new set has a new plastic kit each for good and evil, and new plastic terrain. Starter sets should first and foremost provide a good introduction to the game. For that reason alone, the new set is better.
I take your point on the forces Joe! I will say there's some illegal pairings in the new starter set :) I don't hate the new starter set, I just wish it offered the same sort of value as the previous set :) (Plus, death, ride to ruin and world's ending!)
@@DiscourseMinis I agree with you there. I bought the Pellenor set because of the value and because rohan, and I honestly probably won't buy the new one. But I've been collecting (if not actively playing) since the ROTK version of the rule book - a starter set doesn't need to appeal to me. I hope it brings new players in!
I just hope that they release the Oliphant , good kit nice details sadly long lost ( gave it away years ago 🤫 I made it painted it stuck on shelf and a friend saw it I needed the space for other models never seen it since on sale in stores )
@@kevinmccusker1509 Exactly. Titanicus is balanced around the idea that both sides will be fielding from the same rosta of units, with the minor rules differences being based on your choice of Titan Legion, and which maniples (squadrons of 3-5 titans) you run. Two starter boxes, and you can field almost all the light and medium maniples. That's great for the players, but GW hates that it can't turn Titanicus into the same cash cow as 30k/40k. Same problem with Aeronautica, which has had even less support when it comes to representation on WH Community and in White Dwarf.
I almost took the plunge on this game in the early days. I was all set to buy a Haradrim bundle on GW's site for several hundred dollars, then did the math and saw that there was ZERO discount for the lot. It really rubbed me the wrong way and soured me on buying in.
You dont have to. You can buy it at a discount from a local reseller. You can get it around $100 nowadays where im from. And like GW or not, thats just good value for the amount and quality of the models and art. I think that the business practices of GW are indeed a bit sketchy, but LOTR is just a cool IP that has nothing to do with them and buying a box from a local store will do them a favour, and not GW, so thats alright in my book
Couple responces to some points you made: Théoden was exclusive to Pelenor fields for a while when that released, so these new heroes will be the same, and will get seperate releases down the line eventually. The Gondor half is actually legal if you run it as the Rangers Legendary Legion, and actually the good half of Pelenor Fields was ilegal as there was no hero to lead the army of the dead.
I might be interested in a Haradrim Battleforce. Which I won't use at all for the MESBG, but for a very different game - they're just good sculpts. Sorry GW, I only cling to Warcry as a proprietary ruleset, and that's because the new edition hasn't screwed over the old one.
I like the minis, haven't tried the rule sets in a while. Ignored the MESBG until I saw the cavalry sculpts and £20 for six seems reasonable. Also they still sell the old Empire stuff so y'know that's pretty cool.
I have played MESBG as my only system for the past 4 years. Honestly the best thing GW can do is minimally support the system. We avoid the hype train and predatory marketing practices. Independent 3D designed models are providing updated warrior sculpts in the wake of GW not redesigning 20 year old plastic warrior kits. I’m fine with less releases that means they don’t fuck with the core rules which are perfect.
Glorfindel's part was replaced with Arwen in the movies. Arwen was only mentioned in The Two Towers book when she arrived for the wedding. Glorfindel is a certified bad ass!
I haven't bought a LotR rulebook since the "A Shadow in the East" "codex" and now I'm only thinking how could the miniatures of LotR be used for an OPR army (since it's the cheapest GW armies you can get) or how could I make OPR army lists for LotR minis. Why on Earth do they make sets of 4-8 minis per spruce :( PS : I have a metal Glorfindel from 2005, just saying PSS : I have an Elrond on food that has a very Hugo Weaving vibe. From 2002.
I miss the days when little shit me would go to the store to buy a 5-6$ hero or a pack of 5 dudes for same money. At the store, retail price for new stuff. Nowadays when l look at 60$ Heroes and single units, l no longer wonder why the youngest non"l Play my dads/uncles army" player is 29.
I found out about Games Workshop, because of the LOTR minis. My brother and I started collecting them before eventually moving to Warhammer. (This was around 2009-ish)
Middle Earth SBG is an absolutely brilliant system. I sat on the game for a long time, but I found a small local shop with about 20 dedicated players. Got the Pelennor Fields box a week before it was killed by James Workshop.
glorfindel is the most powerful elf warrior in the 3rd age. His role was replaced by Arwen in Fellowship of the ring. He is soo powerful he can fight several Nazgul by himself and defeat them. The witch king also doesn't want to fight him. His horse is also intelligent similar to shadowfax in abilities. The resin means he will probably be $40 bucks which is sad.
legit had a massive Gondor army painted to be Richard the Lionheart themed with a secondary Rohan army for people to play with. After years of trying to play with any one in America I gave up and traded in for 40k models
I honestly thought they missed a trick here to bridge the gap between the films and the new TV series. I would have done a 'remastered' boxed set of the last alliance boxed set. Elrond, Gilgalad and Sauron all done in plastic with new plastic high elven warriors with a variety of sculpts (sorry monopose overhead sword guy and archers, your time is up) and actual new mordor orcs that were present in that battle rather than the moria goblins that were included originally.... no scenery, apart from a battle mat, and just extra foot soldiers....that would have been great to see in my opinion
I remember LoTR game it was amazing! It was actually the reason GW blew up in the mid 00s it brought it most of the money, I don't think GW liked depending on an outsider's IP to be their main attraction. I also remember they done the magazine with the models back then as well and it was great for me being a kid with not alot of money once a month pick something up. At the time I was playing 40k with my friends models with him helped test out his armies for him. I also helped paint the models and let's just say my friends painted models look like the meme of the face painted marine, the look of pain of the face being melted while he never actually was. That was truly a task 🤣 also I really do hope it has nothing to with the Amazon fiction show :-/
I picked up Pelennor Fields end of last year and will get the new box set, plus the battle boxes, as haven't picked up those hero models yet. The price needs to be realistic £50 - £60 MAX will be the sweet spot. I just wish the hero models weren't like £25 for a 20mm model in 2 poses. I find a lot of these models are double the cost they should be, for smaller models. However what choice do you have if you want to play
One good part about MESBG is also that the tournaments and places to play are not hosted by GW because GW doesn't care about it. That means any cool conversions, some proxies or 3rd party models either from historical miniatures or specific pirateers can be used.
As a MESBG player with 3 armies (Mirkwood elves, Lothlorien elves and Iron Hills dwarves) Glorfindel is a HUGE reveal he’s a beast in the lore and in game so a model representing him well was needed and tbh I have no problem with him being Forgeworld like Thranduil on Elk or Dain on his pig the model will be amazing! (Price wise though 😬) I’m excited for the elven brothers and the Court guard as I really dislike the old finecast Guard models I currently own so I can’t wait to get some new cleaner sculpts. I’m sure the Last alliance will be the next thing they do as Elrond is in his last alliance armour and the banner is a specific banner for Gil Galad that also need a a model update. The next thing I want to see is them update the high elf infantry in some way because they’re in dire need of an update
I wouldn't be surprised to see updated 2nd age elf infantry actually. Despite the fact we haven't seen any new infantry since the hobbit, they currently share a sprue with numenor. Looking at the the current battle host boxes they all have a new plastic hero, plastic infantry and plastic cavalry (except isengard which has 2 types of infantry). I don't think they currently could make any sets following a similar formula. Looking at all the new plastic heroes, Theoden, Faramir and Gothmog are in the starter sets, Eomer, Gandalf, Sauruman and the witch king are in battlehosts, the only remaining ones are eowyn, treebeard, 3 hunters, king of the dead and now elrond. Ent battlehost won't happen, rohan already has one, 3 hunters don't make sense in one. All that's left are the dead which would need plastic cavalry, or rivendell which would need new infantry. Although actually they'll probably just ignore the numenor infantry on the sprue because it would be cheaper to have them as freebies than to make a new infantry sprue. Using similar logic, I wonder if theyd do a new plastic suladan for a harad battle host, or amdur for Easterlings. So far they've stuck with recognisable heroes from the movies I guess
@@1337pianoman I expect we’ll get High elves the same way they did The Knights of Dol-Amroth kit where there’s a couple of guys you you can custom build your way so I think they’d do a pack that allow you to build Sword alone or with shield, spear alone or with shield or a bow, while that would mean expensive forgworld models if that’s what they do I’ll take it but a plastic box would be amazing. If they then had Elrond or a plastic Gil-galad with some plastic high elves for a starter box it would be brilliant! I just need more elves 😂 I’ve held off on a high elf army till the base troops get sorted so I can wait a little longer I suppose 🙄😂
Super strange when you think about it. The one Miniature company is much better known for its games. So instead of Miniatures they produce Rules and Books.
@@DiscourseMinis it will also be interesting to see what happens with the license to the LOTR IP now that MEE has been sold to Embracer group who also own Asmodee and their subsidiary Atomic Mass Games.
Forge World is an interesting concept. I pay them more with no additional benefit. I've never bought from FW and never will. I love LOTR and was interested. But I thought - how hard will they make it for me to buy what I want. Then I thought - the fact I am thinking about this tells me all need to know. If I'm paying, I'm deciding how this goes. I'm out.
@Bubble -x12 I gotta admit I own my share of FW models, I can't help it their Night Lords stuff is just so damn cool! I love my Trogg Hag as well, she is the most fun I've ever had painting and adding little extra kitbashes on!
The Fireslayers new collecting box is a huge slap in the face to fans, it used to come with a magmadroth and ten warriors for $95, now it comes with like 20 warriors for the same price and the magmadroth is sold separately for another $95.
I spent 1400$ on miniatures… worst part was I bought individually all the hero’s and units that have come in the new box sets. Which could have saved me a lot!! Started with the Pelennor fields box of course Then Mines of Moria I got gifted !!! after I bought the fellowship separate before hand RIP Last Aliance set- Elrond and his sons Isengard -Bought wargs, Isengard scouts, Lurtz and Ugluk, Saruman and wormtongue, warg riders. Got a second Pelennor fields box set. Mordor- Bought some of the ringwraiths separate , and Sauron, Mordor orcsx2, Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Easternlings Gondor- King Aragorn, armoured boromoir, Gandalf the white, Faramir and his 2 captains, bought Arathorn and the ranger captains with some rangers and Gondor soldiers, fountain guards, Rohan- I got Eomer and Eowyn . Like Frick these new box sets might have saved me a few bucks
Do GW actually own the LOTR game or do they still owe New Line a cut from licensing? If the new show is a success, surely GW don't own that license,since it's just the Peter Jackson movies and I guess any creative associated with those movies that potentially didn't make it into the movie?
They don't have the Rings of Power license as far as I'm aware (and that's a really safe bet). I suspect though that they wanna be around just in case it does take off and leads to a resurgence in LOTR media
Basically they only put items out occasionally because they have to, to keep the license. Other then that they have been sitting on it to keep it from being possible competition should another mini company get the rights.
@@DiscourseMinisa GW employee told me that apparently the CEO hates Bezos with a passion so hasn't put a bid in to tender the license for miniatures. Not sure how accurate that is, but it's believable as Bezos is pretty unlikeable
They would have to get the license from the Tolkien estate, not who ever is making the movies or show unless New line or amazon have merchandising in their license agreements
Wayland Games is currently listing the Pelennor Fields set as “available to order” as they claim a restock is expected. Presumably this will be revised to something more accurate shortly, leaving the would-be purchaser with £83.50 in store credit.
Similar situation at Element Games, albeit for £5.75 more. I’ve not checked eBay yet but no doubt any available copies will be listed at a higher price.
I like the terrain. Looks like it could be easily replicated in mdf or foam core. I was suspicious about the reveal and what might happen next. Price hike incoming and early preorder.
Not gonna lie, MESBG feels less like a fantasy wargame and more like a historical wargame. Everything is build around replaying those moments from the favorite story and all factions have that very distinct style that defines them. Meanwhile I really want to do my own thing in this awesome setting. Maybe a Balrog leading evil eastern humans in a custom color scheme, an army of ghost dwarves that could not fulfill their oath of protecting their home and now haunt the surrounding lands (by attacking Orcs and Trolls) I would know how I would paint them, the ghost dwarves would even work as count as dwarves or dead of dunharrow if I use the right models, but I think it would be hard to find matches, as most players I met really wanted that authentic army look.
They switched it from The Hobbit to Middle Earth in 2018. It’s not a decade’s worth of supplements and the game definitely could use an update for the rulebook so there’s no need for doom and gloom.
I enjoyed the first book the best, I liked the poor hobbits being pursued by the black rider's very horror movie 🍿, but movie wise yes two towers was the best.
Although I wish I got the Pelennor box I didnt want my first evil hero to be the witch king on fell beast without his foot model. This new Osgiliath looks perfect as a first step in the door
GW actually didn't agree at first to make this game, as they were ordered to keep ALL minis/terrain in actual 25 mm scale, so they could be played alongside the minis/terrain from other manufacturers who produced LOTR gaming products. GW wanted it in their new 28 mm scale, so they had more control over what they made and who could play with it, but were forced to comply in the end, so it's no surprise that they are now killing the one game that most people love more than Warhammer/WH30k & 40k. I make terrain for gamers near me, and the things I make are MUCH bigger than anything GW produce, and I do it for the challenge, not the money. Starter sets are just cash cows GW bring out to bring in more money, yet are never exactly as good as any that went before. GW only care about their brand name games, that they have complete control over, and can make special characters/terrain for, whereas with LOTR, they have to tow the line and produce only what is in the original stories, and so can't have space marines being turned into LOTR forces :-> Save yourself a LOT of money, and buy your next set of minis/terrain from other manufacturers that do them much cheaper, as GW won't care if they lose your custom, as that is why they're pricing their new LOTR additions so high.
I feel like you get the rulebook in about a month unless they have it tied to the quarterly fomo model. If fomo is the model then you cant get the book until the next fomo comes out.
Love the content, could you do a video on your thoughts on Privateer Press' current Warmachine MK4 announcements, charging money for 3D printed mini's, quality of the 3D prints, etc. You'd probably enjoy not having to say Games Workshop in a video for a change. ;)
Really interesting video. I’d been playing SBG on and off for the last 10 years but have recently begun to move away from it and into other games. Part of the reason for that is I enjoy painting minis as much as playing games and the simple fact is the majority of the MESBG range doesn’t hold up miniatures wise when compared to other systems. Was quite disappointed with the Warhammer stream event, really very little content when compared to recent releases for other GW specialist games. Hoping 2023 turns out to be a bumper year of new releases like after the previous box set but not hugely hopeful. Even the way they’re releasing the starter set seems odd- feels much more like a MTO than a new launch product they’re confident will sell
I went in with some friends and did a box split of PF at the beginning of the year. I chose Dead of Dunharrow just for the quick and easy painting. Aside from that and the few Dunharrow minis and the Three Hunters on foot, I don't have any other army. Have only played a few games, mostly Battle Companies. Which is fun to me. For me, the Battlehost and new starter is great. I've been thinking about doing a Minas Tirith army for a while. Finally some shooting and magic! I like the terrain. I understand it to be modular like most of the 40k range. You'll be able to build it in many ways and, with more kits, make bigger buildings and ruins if so inclined. I might even keep the evil side just to have a third army option if I get more into the game. I think it's a good set and looking forward to it's release as well as the Battlehost boxes. It's even gotten me more interested in other minis as well. A win/win for GW where I'm concerned. Pricing? Seems about right for all that's included.
Hey Discourse, great coverage and largely how I felt about the reveals. Two things I'd love to see you cover 1) the middle earth strategy battle game and why the rules are so good and 2) if you could look into the Davale games patreon and maybe print off a few of their STLs would be really cool to see them get a shout out on your channel as an alternative to GWs LotR minis and hear your thoughts on if you like them or not.
The rules are fine as long as it’s no more than a few dozen miniatures on each side. When I run helms deep and mines of Moria I don’t use games workshop rules. Part of the issue is that both games are different one is a drive the other a dungeon crawl.
I remember those old Lord of the rings magazines. I picked up a bunch at a carboot for about 50p each... Easily had a couple of every sprue from the early 2000s and plenty of metal miniatures and characters... Painted the lot at a fair price and did play a fair few games in the day. Gave them all to my little brother, no idea what he did with them.... He also has my battle for skull pass models and a catachan army... I should get back in touch really... Just to get those models back (he's no games like me and dropped off the hobby in his teen years)...
And then everyone sees the inflated price tag and slowly backs away. At this point, I think Games Workshop's practice of asymmetrically raising prices is a way of making buyers subsidize their other products that don't sell. A real pity because so much of their problems would go away with proper research and community involvement.
As others have stated, I thought it was more geared toward miniature collectors. In fact although I realize they were produced by games workshop, I didn’t realize there was a war game attached. I thought they were just licensed Minitures. I’ve seen them a few times and I think they looked really good but they’re also quite pricey.
The best games that GW "killed" are Mordheim, Realm of Chaos and Rogue Trader which all still have an amazing community of people dedicated to those brands, playing with 3rd party minis and updated rules. They've abandoned their amazing IPs in an unending quest to sell new products to potential buyers instead of the very cool assets they already have under their belt while pigeonholing their current brands. Instead of inviting people holistically into the hobby they've wagered on capitalizing on nostalgia by making their games mostly out of reach for the average consumer and favored those indebted to their brand. If Tolkien could toss in his grave, he would. They can sell endless new rulesets and iterations of their IP while shutting out people who enjoy the universe they created while making it totally in accessible to newcomers, hence the market bubble they've relegated themselves to. No more DIY. No more use your imagination. Only a strict adherence to their brand. I e we all lose having people involved in a hobby that is dear to us
Here in Australia quite a lot of forgeworld is quite similar price to other troops from the gw store because each HQ from the regular store is $60 here
gosh, i was so concerned that lotr sbg got cancelled like pirates from wizards of the coast and i was like 'noooo, just as i got back into it!'. Hope it's not messed with too much but i'm more in it for the collecting
I honestly think the old Perry sculpts for MESBG look much better than the new sculpts GW is putting out for the range. Theres a heroic-scale chunkiness with the new models that doesn't look right next to the true scale sculpts that the game has used for years.
I’m glad we got the Pelennor box set when we did. I think I paid $140 on Amazon. I spent a day assembling them and we’ve got them mostly painted. I’m mostly excited about all of the older books we scored for $30 second hand! The fellowship of the rings, The return of the king and of course the two towers! The game system in these books as well as scenarios and scenery building are seriously the best thing that GW has ever produced!!!
It was big after the first trilogy launched, in no small part due to the in-supermarket sold, collectible magazines they did with Deagostini. Multi-lingual, cheap, with tons of models and great hobby content. But after the Return of the King and a handful of follow-up supplements they've essentially abandoned the entire thing, merely releasing something a few times a year to seemingly being able to hold on to the license. That said it was clear from the beginning that GW never really cared about the game and minis, it was in everything from the scale (with was part of the license from what I understood) to the in-range scale discrepancy. ALL the metal models were bigger in scale than the plastic, which is fine of the baddies. When every good character is a half head taller than the core troops it starts to really stand out. I was kind of excited about this stuff, till I actually saw it. Poor sets, re-packaged, old stuff, seemingly bad rules updates, unnecessary, new starter set that replaces a far superior product in both content and value, LE models in big box setc etc. etc. It's just GW being GW..............trying to milk those who are still stuck with Stockholm syndrome / sunken cost fallacy. Shame, could have been a great hobby gateway product...........
You’re not looking at it from a marketing standpoint. With the new show coming out you want new ppl and a way to start/restart the game. You have to remember not everyone has played the game for yearssss. If I’m a new player, I don’t want to buy a over 3 year old box (correct me if I’m wrong). Hell, LotRs player’s should be happy they didn’t bump up the scale.
> why don't GW release a Warhammer Old World Legacy edition using LOTRSB rules so we can play skirmish level games with all our Old World stuff? You could just about knock out a game or two with the current LOTR lists, which roughly pass for some fantasy armies.
Saruman: if we don't update your box set our rights to IP will be lost GrÃma: Even if we update our box sets, it would take a prices beyond reckoning, thousands. Saruman: Tens of thousands. GrÃma: But my lord, there is no such box set.
Love it there's nothing tying this to the Towers ?????? Really Faramir,Damrod, Madril and Gothmog all introduced in Two Towers, Osgiliath first seen in Two towers, new battle boxes with Minas tirith, Rohan which were first seen in Two Towers Eomer and Grima I know these models existed but both characters first meet in uh Two Towers yep deffinatly nothing to do with the Two Towers can 100% see your point
I'm having a nightmare with this. Haha. I played LOTR 20 years ago and always wanted to get back into it. When I saw the new box I decided to grab pelennor fields as it's such better value. All good untill I started to build the riders. GW put the new bases with the hexagonal holes in and the horses (from 2002) have the small round peg, that no where near fits the hex holes in the new bases. I phoned GW and they said the bases are right and to use green stuff to fill the gap. Also I was advised to sit and hold it while I glued it to the side of the hole! The problem is the peg and whole hoof fits through the hex hole. I asked GW to kindly send me some old bases with the proper wee round hole, but they are unable to do that. I'm feeling rather let down right now, because I have 12 horses a can't really use and GW's attitude was fix it myself.....
@@DiscourseMinis Well I emailed GW about the above issue I have and the reply was rather silly. In the first paragraph I was told to "use a tooth pick or bit of sprue to plug the gap so I can glue the horse to the base". Then in the second paragraph they said the bases were "considered the correct ones", so would only replace them with the same bases. So yeah, fix it yourself!
The best game system about Middle-earth is still Battle of Five Armies (Warmaster-mod for LOTR/Hobbit). It is cheap to buy (3d-printed miniatures; free army lists for Warmaster). It is about armies, not about super-heroes. The rules are small and smart.
What about this? "Sometimes, the Archmagi of the Mechancium gaze upon their towering battle automata and the words “no, too small” arc across their cogitator circuits, which is where the Questoris Household fits in." Are people that bought in to the new 40k Chaos/Imperial Knight. Now kicking themselves in the back of thy heads!
Would say its woken up over the last 5 years, mostly due to the FB group and a number of really dedicated players. They have had quite a few releases since BATTLE OF PELENNOR FIELDS (Which your right, was/is a fantastic set and 85 minis was a huge bargain)
A note about Glorfindel - in the book The Fellowship of the Ring he rode to Frodo's rescue when the Nazgul pursued him (he was replaced with Arwen in the movie.) In the Silmarillion he slew a Balrog at the Battle of Gondolin and lived, so yeah he's pretty awesome. (Back me up here Tolkien loremasters)
The Glorfindel who killed the Balrog actually died and I think Tolkien never cleared whether he came back (like Gandalf) or whether he was another Glorfindel.
You are right though, 2nd/3rd Age Glorfindel is still one of the greatest Elves to live in that period. 😉
Yes this was one of my biggest complaints about the films. He is a bad ass and they just washed him out of the plot.
@@nilswolff5755 I stand corrected - he did die, just like Gandalf did when he faced the Balrog of Moria; but according to later writings of Tolkien he came back to life and indeed was the one that helped Frodo (I think the book was titled The Peoples of Middle Earth)
@@elrondorioNow I think this is quickly turning into semantics here, but that book wasn't published in his days (like many) but actually put together by his son and was taken from bare notes on the character. So did Tolkien write it as a possibility, yes. Did he deem it the final version, we do not know. I think Galadriels story had something like 3 iterations over time as well for example.
Me personally, I firmly believe they both should be the same Glorfindel, because that would flesh out that character more and would just make him more awesome.
Glorfindel is pretty much the default best hero in the 3rd age. The story just isn't really about him. It's about men and their legacy while elves leave Middle Earth.
There's also no real villain for Glorfindel to fight.
Glorfindel also came up with the lore on the Witch King stating that you will die at the hands of no living man. Being a clairvoyant.
He also died to the Balrog but was brought back like Gandalf by the gods or Eru Ilúvatar. (God).
Galadriel was the default person behind the scenes but another mistake folks make that she is not the oldest Elf on Middle Earth. In fact that's Cirdan who has fashioned boats to attempt to find the way to heaven. The Elves had lost the ability to sale to heaven which he then finds. He leaves his ring to Gandalf when he embarks on that journey. Basically this guy is a legend, but isn't in the story at all. Except for being the oldest Elf on the planet.
It's actually a really, really good game. There was speculation that the rules would become the next Warhammer ruleset. It's a shame that didn't happen. But it's still a great game.
I think it is the predecessor to thr kill team and warcry rulesets currently in usr.
On that note qe may see more of it in 10th.
For the love of god, never make these rules like 40k. Please no.
@@shakazulu301 hes talking about the other direction
It’s just an updated rule book. It’s not invalidating anything. I’ve played lotr for 20 years with no issues. The game has benefitted from being ignored for a long time as the game is largely unchanged since 1st edition. Ultimately if it makes it easier for people to get into the game then that’s a good thing. Imagine seasonal updates like 40k and AOS. It’s a largely narrative game and as long as gw remember that and keep publishing lots of scenarios as well as the competitive garbage then I’ll be happy. The new character models are also great, and needed. Hopefully they will keep what they are currently doing and keep the core rules the same and release supplements with scenarios and books containing all the relevant profiles. If only 40k and aos had the same ecosystem instead of the current nonsense.
i will miss my Pelennor Field box set. nothing else quite like it on the GW store anymore.
Horses for courses i suppose. I have all the Rohan I could ever need as my gaming has focused on that section of the book and hate the spirits as they wrecked that part of the movie and made the sacrifice of the Rohan pointless. I’m Ready to move on to Minas Tirith now and the new box set will help facilitate that. From that point of view the new box is a winner for me, price depending of course.
narrative games are garbage, competitive is where games really shine.
@@anab0lic A good game is a good game. Competitive gaming is just one way of doing it, but is by no means the best way.
Wouldn't it be awesome if we could all. Enjoy games in out own way rather than being a bunch of gate keeping douche bags that always have to be right...come on guys remember we're all neuro-divergent.. Let's at least try to let other people have fun.
My takeaway from this is that Discourse hasn't read any of the books (and doesn't sound like she intends to). That makes her even more of a rarity in the nerd community.
I read lotr when I was 7ish back in the 70s then proceeded to the rest of the series ( read the Hobbit at 11) sadly like many fandoms so called fans only use the movies or TV shows as total references ( and act like they know everything about the franchise 🤣) while it's not required for the games as the old magazines explained rules of engagement and provided figures the books expand on events " great for skirmishes" but like most things in life people grow up and away from such things until they become "COOL and relevant again" then they act like they were always into whatever the subject is ( my books ,merch and miniatures will remain in the storage box I placed them in forever sealed 🤫 but the lore remains in my head 🤓) am I excited about the new show 🤣NO same as the inevitable tie ups to cash in on the trend my money will go to better things I've spent enough thanks I've 15 other universes that needs attention 🤔✌️
GW's had a role in the decline of MESBG during the One Ring and Hobbit films. They reboxed the troops and halved the amount of units you get in the box at same price. At the time people where building to play the One Ring, a larger scale version of the game and there was alot of community backlash. The prices of the Hobbit armies did not help, as well as the reception to the films. It was a dark time but fortunately they went back on this. Im excited for the updated book but will be looking for that GW price bump to see if its worth it.
I played LOTR from its release up until about 2010 when GW just let it go to hell. The War of the Ring large scale game seemed to me (and a lot of other people) just a way to ring more money out of LOTR players buy selling them more models. The rules themselves were a trainwreck on release. they were basically unplayable and needed a large errata to function at all.
You mean war of the ring not the one ring
Hail Atreides!
@@irishthump73 I thought the war of the ring game worked just great.. I liked that it had all the armies in one army book which I thought was cool.
@@patinho5589 Mechanically it was terrible, it obviously wasn’t playtested at all. From the start there were issues with stuff like movement and facing! Magic was also ridiculously unbalanced.
I was one of the nerds who played the LotR game in those lofty days-- simply because it seemed more feasible to build an army with that than with 40K.
See, I stopped after 2nd Ed 40k as the game pretty much completely changed. It wasn't that skirmish game I loved and some of the armies were going a bit too cartoony.
@@Black_Blow_Fly why? They basically changed the entire game, dumbed it down to a really awful level.
@@Black_Blow_Fly and how many people do you know will attempt to play 2nd Ed with out saying 'but (X) edition'.
@@ChristopherSmith-dq2xs That's fair, Warhammer was already well into 4th by the time I was able to start playing it.
If you have two armies though, people can be surprisingly open to older games if you ask them. I'd try second edition but my main army is T'au which wouldn't convert easily.
Discourse you have to remember that it was the Perry brothers that designed most of the Games Workshop Lord of the Rings range at the insistence of Peter Jackson. If you're eagle-eyed you can see the Perry brothers playing Corpses on the Pelinor fields. They are used to making miniatures for the Long Haul. Look how long their historicals have been on the market and just how long they are still amongst the best on the market. I frankly wouldn't have a Russian Napoleonic Army without them. I've never played the Lord of the Rings game mostly because I do not have any opponents and the few who have said anything about it or take one look at my Rohan Army and decide to move on to something smaller.
Rohan Army is like 20 models though surely ? It's a skirmish game?
@@scepteredisle I'd have to dig them out but I believe that there are at least 10 or 11 Heroes there is the royal guard of rohan, there are foot soldiers, and Riders of Rohan. Finally there were Defenders of Helms Deep. Over the years I have ended up with easily over 200 simply because there is something about the design and the execution that speaks to me.
@@scepteredisle no the Rohan range is much larger I believe they're like 10 or 11 hero models there's the Royal Guards mounted and dismounted there are the Riders of Rohan, dismounted riders of Rohan, a couple of specialty sets and then from Forge World there was some Helms Deep and stuff made.. personally I really enjoy the aesthetic and the models and over the years I have just added more and more to it so I would say my Rohan Force could easily put out two to 300 figures. I've never been involved with a group that plays it so to me it was just a collecting and display piece
So GW "KILLED" MSEBG by announcing a new starter box, models for Glorfindel and Elrond and start collecting boxes for 4 of the main factions.
There's a gap in the logic here
So just to rebuttal you:
1. GW haven’t overlooked MESBG for years. Yes I was for a few after the hobbit, but it has still been huge for the last 4 years odd. Getting continuous support, models, FAQ’s and everything.
2. Sat on the same rules? There has been big changes since 2001. Like BIG CHANGES! Yes it has the same base idea, but so has 40k, AoS and 30k kept their same base ideas for years years 😅
3. I would say a “basic bitch” MESBG player isn’t an Isenguard player, it’s a Rohan player.
4. I wouldn’t say Pelennor Fields starter set is the best ever made. It came with 3 factions that were only half there. Missing models that would be needed to field them legally. The Rohan army (see point 3) we’re the best ones for legal lists.
5. The Gondor list isn’t legal. Yup. That’s fair. But legal lists doesn’t matter when it comes to the narrative scenarios which is what the box rules includes. If you want to make a legal list from it, then you obviously have to buy more models because, well it’s a starter set. It’s somewhere to start.
6. Locked in models? They’ll be exclusive models to the box for a few months and then they’ll be released separately. Just like Theoden was with “the best starter set ever”.
7. No I would not like you to do a video on MESBG. Judging by the way you do your videos, you would just make all the enjoyment and excitement out of it and I would rather not have that publicity for a game I love.
8. New rule book coming out separately isn’t a problem because the Gandalf rule book is still legal and legit. The Sauron one is just easier. Nothing more than that.
9. With the Battleforce Boxes, I’m glad you finally have something positive to say.
10. They have said already that the Battleforce boxes are coming with a discount.
11. Glorfindel being a book only character and then showing a picture of the movie? 🤦♂️😂
12. I agree. I can’t seem to find the Two Towers preview. A little disappointed in that bit.
13. It wasn’t as much as is shown off for 40k? That’s because 40k is a main line game and MESBG is a specialist game… like Warcry, or Kill Team, or Underworlds. And this preview showed off considerably more than those games.
14. Gothmog is a new profile. They confirmed that.
15. No new troops? Look at that elf banner again.
16. Yes it is an army level game, but you also need no where near as many models for your MESBG Army as you do for other games. An 800 points Army has roughly 40 models in it. That’s completely different to your standard 2000 points 40k/AoS Army and their model count.
Thanks for this video though. Any publicity is good publicity for the game I love. If possible, keep the negativity away though. It’s not required :)
Rohan has been fixed and gained in popularity after this recent edition, but Isengard is still the basic bitch. Most common army though is Minas Tirith slightly ahead of Isengard.
Glorfindel wasn't in the films, but that background character looks close enough to be him.
Just to put a bit of perspective on it:
Sure, the Pelennor set had a lot of minis in it, but it also didn't have any scenery. In terms of an actual 'starter' set, the newer set could actually be better value if it comes in that the 'Pelennor ballpark' they said it would. It's also providing more in the way of playable contents than the new WarCry set (twice as many minis for roughly the same price).
There's a lot you can take GW to task for (they really need to look at the likes of Mantic and AMG to see how starters boxes should be), but to be honest, if they don't get stupid with the pricing then the new set and the Battlehost boxes are definitely a step in the right direction
A someone who might get into it, the Isengard battlehost being pretty much a full army for the price of a start collecting box is pretty awesome. Shame that the new starter is already out of production.
@@katelystt Not actually out of production - pre-orders for it went live for 14 days a couple of months back and then closed (which is getting to be pretty common GW practise now), but the actual release date for it isn't until December 17th. 3rd party retailers are still taking pre-orders for it, and GW just sent Zorpazorp 25 boxes of it for free th-cam.com/video/5x1YPWcQtH0/w-d-xo.html so I don't think they're running out any time soon...
@@TwinStripe ah my bad I've just seen GW release a new starter box then retire it a month later too often so I thought it was gone for good.
@@katelystt Curiously, this seems to be the only line they don't do that with (possibly because they're having to pay for the license, so want to milk it for all it's worth). It pretty much stands alone amongst all of the GW mainline products in that it's only had 4 'editions' since 2001 (with an 'edition' released with each of the first three movies) and has been largely unchanged since 2005 (the 2018 edition when the whole thing was rebranded as ME:SBG is pretty much all the previous supplements and FAQ/errata rolled in and the 2022 version included in the new starter set contains all of the supplements and FAQ/errata released after that).
That's one of the reasons that I disagree with Discourse and think that the Osgiliath box is a much better deal than the Pelennor one; sure, Pelennor had more minis, but the new box has a full, updated rulebook, two pretty balanced armies, scenery, all the game tools and a mini campaign dealing with the actual battle from the story (weighted heavily to force the campaign to conclude in the same way the battle does, but I think that's a lot more thematic).
Simply put, 'Battle for Osgiliath' is designed for you to start playing ME:SBG
'Battle of Pelennor Fields' was designed for you to start spending money with Games Workshop...
While we sleep James Workshop lies awake seething that someone, somewhere is having fun affordably.
So, does it still make sense to buy the Battle of Pelennor Fields box set now to get into the game if there will be an updated rule book soon?
My introduction to Games Workshop was actually Middle Earth. As a kid I wandered into a GW in the mall and they were playing in this massive center table. The GW worker was trying to teach me how the Rider's of Rohan worked but I was distracted by how beautiful the minis were. Fast forward to now I'm finally thinking about painting some.
I hope you did it man! I finally got back into the hobby after 15 years and im loving it.
Pelennor is great value (for GW) but it doesn't work well as an introduction to the game. The witch king on nazgul is a cool looking model, but being primarily a magic user it's not a beginner friendly hero. And they don't include a dismounted version which is just rude. Also, although there are rules for allying different armies together, including 3 separate armies is just adding confusion.
Osgiliath is definitely a much better _starter_ set. The heroes are all beginner friendly, and with more than 1 hero on the good side that half at least is much closer to being legal (but yes, technically too many bows). We don't know about price yet, but in terms of content it is very similar, just with one of the three armies swapped out for brand new terrain - much more sensible for a starter set. The Pellenor set had lots of plastic, but the only thing that was actually new was Theoden. The new set has a new plastic kit each for good and evil, and new plastic terrain.
Starter sets should first and foremost provide a good introduction to the game. For that reason alone, the new set is better.
I take your point on the forces Joe! I will say there's some illegal pairings in the new starter set :) I don't hate the new starter set, I just wish it offered the same sort of value as the previous set :) (Plus, death, ride to ruin and world's ending!)
@@DiscourseMinis I agree with you there. I bought the Pellenor set because of the value and because rohan, and I honestly probably won't buy the new one. But I've been collecting (if not actively playing) since the ROTK version of the rule book - a starter set doesn't need to appeal to me. I hope it brings new players in!
I just hope that they release the Oliphant , good kit nice details sadly long lost ( gave it away years ago 🤫 I made it painted it stuck on shelf and a friend saw it I needed the space for other models never seen it since on sale in stores )
That opening intro could just as easily apply to Titanicus... I know, I know, you dislike big, stompy robots, but damn it if it isn't true.
the best games are the lesser played ones 👀
@@DiscourseMinis yea as they are games that make some money, rather than sources of income that happen to be games, if you get my drift.
@@kevinmccusker1509 Exactly. Titanicus is balanced around the idea that both sides will be fielding from the same rosta of units, with the minor rules differences being based on your choice of Titan Legion, and which maniples (squadrons of 3-5 titans) you run. Two starter boxes, and you can field almost all the light and medium maniples. That's great for the players, but GW hates that it can't turn Titanicus into the same cash cow as 30k/40k. Same problem with Aeronautica, which has had even less support when it comes to representation on WH Community and in White Dwarf.
@@ScreamingTc Titanicus could be the 3rd cash cow, as it used to be before this newfangled Middle Earth stuff took over. Get off my lawn etc...
Grima speaks one of my favourite lines of all time
"so fair, so cold, like a pale spring morning still clinging to winters chill"
Is the new rulebook a new edition of the game or could I buy the pelennor fields box and use that rulebook?
Idk, I liked these news. This video just comes across whining for the sake of whining... hopefully it will spark new interest in the game.
I almost took the plunge on this game in the early days. I was all set to buy a Haradrim bundle on GW's site for several hundred dollars, then did the math and saw that there was ZERO discount for the lot. It really rubbed me the wrong way and soured me on buying in.
What a ridiculous fucking reason not to try the game.
If I had known about the Pelenor Fields box a few years ago I would be all about that. Now I can't stomach giving GW any more of my money.
I was the same, but I got it for about $80 usd from a third party seller. So worth it at that proce
You dont have to. You can buy it at a discount from a local reseller. You can get it around $100 nowadays where im from. And like GW or not, thats just good value for the amount and quality of the models and art. I think that the business practices of GW are indeed a bit sketchy, but LOTR is just a cool IP that has nothing to do with them and buying a box from a local store will do them a favour, and not GW, so thats alright in my book
Get it from a lgs as GW already had their money and wont be making any more of these starter sets - it really is worth it
@@ageoflove1980 Do they still sell pelennor field where you live? lucky, i have been in many local stores and always came back empty handed
@@noteurimpie You are right, it seems to be sold out at the moment
Dont need a new edition if its the best game already. I'm still hyped up from the releases as any LOTR support is good, I don't care what it is.
They keep that IP rolling around now with occasional releases just to keep some other company from getting it.
Couple responces to some points you made: Théoden was exclusive to Pelenor fields for a while when that released, so these new heroes will be the same, and will get seperate releases down the line eventually. The Gondor half is actually legal if you run it as the Rangers Legendary Legion, and actually the good half of Pelenor Fields was ilegal as there was no hero to lead the army of the dead.
It's like she doesn't actually know what she's talking about? Lol
I might be interested in a Haradrim Battleforce. Which I won't use at all for the MESBG, but for a very different game - they're just good sculpts. Sorry GW, I only cling to Warcry as a proprietary ruleset, and that's because the new edition hasn't screwed over the old one.
Barely. Putting out the pdfs for everything else was a rickety bridge
I like the minis, haven't tried the rule sets in a while. Ignored the MESBG until I saw the cavalry sculpts and £20 for six seems reasonable. Also they still sell the old Empire stuff so y'know that's pretty cool.
I have played MESBG as my only system for the past 4 years. Honestly the best thing GW can do is minimally support the system. We avoid the hype train and predatory marketing practices. Independent 3D designed models are providing updated warrior sculpts in the wake of GW not redesigning 20 year old plastic warrior kits. I’m fine with less releases that means they don’t fuck with the core rules which are perfect.
Glorfindel's part was replaced with Arwen in the movies. Arwen was only mentioned in The Two Towers book when she arrived for the wedding. Glorfindel is a certified bad ass!
I haven't bought a LotR rulebook since the "A Shadow in the East" "codex" and now I'm only thinking how could the miniatures of LotR be used for an OPR army (since it's the cheapest GW armies you can get) or how could I make OPR army lists for LotR minis. Why on Earth do they make sets of 4-8 minis per spruce :(
PS : I have a metal Glorfindel from 2005, just saying
PSS : I have an Elrond on food that has a very Hugo Weaving vibe. From 2002.
I miss the days when little shit me would go to the store to buy a 5-6$ hero or a pack of 5 dudes for same money. At the store, retail price for new stuff. Nowadays when l look at 60$ Heroes and single units, l no longer wonder why the youngest non"l Play my dads/uncles army" player is 29.
everything feels like an upsell -.-'
I found out about Games Workshop, because of the LOTR minis. My brother and I started collecting them before eventually moving to Warhammer. (This was around 2009-ish)
Middle Earth SBG is an absolutely brilliant system. I sat on the game for a long time, but I found a small local shop with about 20 dedicated players. Got the Pelennor Fields box a week before it was killed by James Workshop.
glorfindel is the most powerful elf warrior in the 3rd age. His role was replaced by Arwen in Fellowship of the ring. He is soo powerful he can fight several Nazgul by himself and defeat them. The witch king also doesn't want to fight him. His horse is also intelligent similar to shadowfax in abilities. The resin means he will probably be $40 bucks which is sad.
legit had a massive Gondor army painted to be Richard the Lionheart themed with a secondary Rohan army for people to play with. After years of trying to play with any one in America I gave up and traded in for 40k models
I honestly thought they missed a trick here to bridge the gap between the films and the new TV series. I would have done a 'remastered' boxed set of the last alliance boxed set. Elrond, Gilgalad and Sauron all done in plastic with new plastic high elven warriors with a variety of sculpts (sorry monopose overhead sword guy and archers, your time is up) and actual new mordor orcs that were present in that battle rather than the moria goblins that were included originally.... no scenery, apart from a battle mat, and just extra foot soldiers....that would have been great to see in my opinion
I remember LoTR game it was amazing! It was actually the reason GW blew up in the mid 00s it brought it most of the money, I don't think GW liked depending on an outsider's IP to be their main attraction. I also remember they done the magazine with the models back then as well and it was great for me being a kid with not alot of money once a month pick something up. At the time I was playing 40k with my friends models with him helped test out his armies for him. I also helped paint the models and let's just say my friends painted models look like the meme of the face painted marine, the look of pain of the face being melted while he never actually was. That was truly a task 🤣 also I really do hope it has nothing to with the Amazon fiction show :-/
I picked up Pelennor Fields end of last year and will get the new box set, plus the battle boxes, as haven't picked up those hero models yet. The price needs to be realistic £50 - £60 MAX will be the sweet spot. I just wish the hero models weren't like £25 for a 20mm model in 2 poses. I find a lot of these models are double the cost they should be, for smaller models. However what choice do you have if you want to play
One good part about MESBG is also that the tournaments and places to play are not hosted by GW because GW doesn't care about it. That means any cool conversions, some proxies or 3rd party models either from historical miniatures or specific pirateers can be used.
As a MESBG player with 3 armies (Mirkwood elves, Lothlorien elves and Iron Hills dwarves) Glorfindel is a HUGE reveal he’s a beast in the lore and in game so a model representing him well was needed and tbh I have no problem with him being Forgeworld like Thranduil on Elk or Dain on his pig the model will be amazing! (Price wise though 😬)
I’m excited for the elven brothers and the Court guard as I really dislike the old finecast Guard models I currently own so I can’t wait to get some new cleaner sculpts. I’m sure the Last alliance will be the next thing they do as Elrond is in his last alliance armour and the banner is a specific banner for Gil Galad that also need a a model update. The next thing I want to see is them update the high elf infantry in some way because they’re in dire need of an update
I wouldn't be surprised to see updated 2nd age elf infantry actually. Despite the fact we haven't seen any new infantry since the hobbit, they currently share a sprue with numenor. Looking at the the current battle host boxes they all have a new plastic hero, plastic infantry and plastic cavalry (except isengard which has 2 types of infantry). I don't think they currently could make any sets following a similar formula. Looking at all the new plastic heroes, Theoden, Faramir and Gothmog are in the starter sets, Eomer, Gandalf, Sauruman and the witch king are in battlehosts, the only remaining ones are eowyn, treebeard, 3 hunters, king of the dead and now elrond. Ent battlehost won't happen, rohan already has one, 3 hunters don't make sense in one. All that's left are the dead which would need plastic cavalry, or rivendell which would need new infantry. Although actually they'll probably just ignore the numenor infantry on the sprue because it would be cheaper to have them as freebies than to make a new infantry sprue.
Using similar logic, I wonder if theyd do a new plastic suladan for a harad battle host, or amdur for Easterlings. So far they've stuck with recognisable heroes from the movies I guess
@@1337pianoman I expect we’ll get High elves the same way they did The Knights of Dol-Amroth kit where there’s a couple of guys you you can custom build your way so I think they’d do a pack that allow you to build Sword alone or with shield, spear alone or with shield or a bow, while that would mean expensive forgworld models if that’s what they do I’ll take it but a plastic box would be amazing. If they then had Elrond or a plastic Gil-galad with some plastic high elves for a starter box it would be brilliant!
I just need more elves 😂 I’ve held off on a high elf army till the base troops get sorted so I can wait a little longer I suppose 🙄😂
Super strange when you think about it. The one Miniature company is much better known for its games. So instead of Miniatures they produce Rules and Books.
Just managed to get one of Pelennor Fields starter sets it took some searching to actually find a copy as it’s out of stock most places.
Yeah, it's getting harder to fund :*
@@DiscourseMinis it will also be interesting to see what happens with the license to the LOTR IP now that MEE has been sold to Embracer group who also own Asmodee and their subsidiary Atomic Mass Games.
Notice how the rulebooks are on the table in the picture to disguise the fact how little scenery it actually contains?
Pretty clickbaity title. They quite clearly didn't kill the game, they just changed the starter set
Forge World is an interesting concept. I pay them more with no additional benefit. I've never bought from FW and never will. I love LOTR and was interested. But I thought - how hard will they make it for me to buy what I want. Then I thought - the fact I am thinking about this tells me all need to know. If I'm paying, I'm deciding how this goes. I'm out.
You get the benefit of getting told you can't bring your FW models into a GW store. I will never understand that.
@Bubble -x12 I gotta admit I own my share of FW models, I can't help it their Night Lords stuff is just so damn cool! I love my Trogg Hag as well, she is the most fun I've ever had painting and adding little extra kitbashes on!
When you make a video of a topic you know nothing about:
The Fireslayers new collecting box is a huge slap in the face to fans, it used to come with a magmadroth and ten warriors for $95, now it comes with like 20 warriors for the same price and the magmadroth is sold separately for another $95.
I spent 1400$ on miniatures… worst part was I bought individually all the hero’s and units that have come in the new box sets. Which could have saved me a lot!!
Started with the Pelennor fields box of course
Then Mines of Moria I got gifted !!! after I bought the fellowship separate before hand RIP
Last Aliance set- Elrond and his sons
Isengard -Bought wargs, Isengard scouts, Lurtz and Ugluk, Saruman and wormtongue, warg riders.
Got a second Pelennor fields box set.
Mordor- Bought some of the ringwraiths separate , and Sauron, Mordor orcsx2, Mouth of Sauron, Gothmog, Easternlings
Gondor- King Aragorn, armoured boromoir, Gandalf the white, Faramir and his 2 captains, bought Arathorn and the ranger captains with some rangers and Gondor soldiers, fountain guards,
Rohan- I got Eomer and Eowyn .
Like Frick these new box sets might have saved me a few bucks
Do GW actually own the LOTR game or do they still owe New Line a cut from licensing? If the new show is a success, surely GW don't own that license,since it's just the Peter Jackson movies and I guess any creative associated with those movies that potentially didn't make it into the movie?
They don't have the Rings of Power license as far as I'm aware (and that's a really safe bet). I suspect though that they wanna be around just in case it does take off and leads to a resurgence in LOTR media
Basically they only put items out occasionally because they have to, to keep the license. Other then that they have been sitting on it to keep it from being possible competition should another mini company get the rights.
@@DiscourseMinisa GW employee told me that apparently the CEO hates Bezos with a passion so hasn't put a bid in to tender the license for miniatures. Not sure how accurate that is, but it's believable as Bezos is pretty unlikeable
They would have to get the license from the Tolkien estate, not who ever is making the movies or show unless New line or amazon have merchandising in their license agreements
Wayland Games is currently listing the Pelennor Fields set as “available to order” as they claim a restock is expected. Presumably this will be revised to something more accurate shortly, leaving the would-be purchaser with £83.50 in store credit.
Similar situation at Element Games, albeit for £5.75 more. I’ve not checked eBay yet but no doubt any available copies will be listed at a higher price.
I like the terrain. Looks like it could be easily replicated in mdf or foam core. I was suspicious about the reveal and what might happen next. Price hike incoming and early preorder.
they didnt call him wyrm tongue for his vile discourse 😏
i like where this is going
Appreciate the enthusiastic discourse, HATE the clickbait title. I'm a fan of MESBG getting a lil polish and some new attention.
Not gonna lie, MESBG feels less like a fantasy wargame and more like a historical wargame. Everything is build around replaying those moments from the favorite story and all factions have that very distinct style that defines them.
Meanwhile I really want to do my own thing in this awesome setting.
Maybe a Balrog leading evil eastern humans in a custom color scheme, an army of ghost dwarves that could not fulfill their oath of protecting their home and now haunt the surrounding lands (by attacking Orcs and Trolls)
I would know how I would paint them, the ghost dwarves would even work as count as dwarves or dead of dunharrow if I use the right models, but I think it would be hard to find matches, as most players I met really wanted that authentic army look.
But why would I want 80 LotR models when I could have one Imperial Knight for the same price (that everyone will hate me for fielding)?
/s
They switched it from The Hobbit to Middle Earth in 2018. It’s not a decade’s worth of supplements and the game definitely could use an update for the rulebook so there’s no need for doom and gloom.
I have it is called Mordheim.
This was 100% IP defense intended to lock it down. Also some of those Middle Earth sculpts make gor incredible 40k cultist
The Two Towers is my favourite of the books and my favourite of the movies, and I am not afraid to admit it. 😆
it is gooooood
I enjoyed the first book the best, I liked the poor hobbits being pursued by the black rider's very horror movie 🍿, but movie wise yes two towers was the best.
Although I wish I got the Pelennor box I didnt want my first evil hero to be the witch king on fell beast without his foot model. This new Osgiliath looks perfect as a first step in the door
can you please explain what a 'gee-um' is
Just browsed through you recent content. Do you just make inflammatory clickbait drama content about GW?
GW actually didn't agree at first to make this game, as they were ordered to keep ALL minis/terrain in actual 25 mm scale, so they could be played alongside the minis/terrain from other manufacturers who produced LOTR gaming products. GW wanted it in their new 28 mm scale, so they had more control over what they made and who could play with it, but were forced to comply in the end, so it's no surprise that they are now killing the one game that most people love more than Warhammer/WH30k & 40k. I make terrain for gamers near me, and the things I make are MUCH bigger than anything GW produce, and I do it for the challenge, not the money. Starter sets are just cash cows GW bring out to bring in more money, yet are never exactly as good as any that went before. GW only care about their brand name games, that they have complete control over, and can make special characters/terrain for, whereas with LOTR, they have to tow the line and produce only what is in the original stories, and so can't have space marines being turned into LOTR forces :-> Save yourself a LOT of money, and buy your next set of minis/terrain from other manufacturers that do them much cheaper, as GW won't care if they lose your custom, as that is why they're pricing their new LOTR additions so high.
I feel like you get the rulebook in about a month unless they have it tied to the quarterly fomo model. If fomo is the model then you cant get the book until the next fomo comes out.
Love the content, could you do a video on your thoughts on Privateer Press' current Warmachine MK4 announcements, charging money for 3D printed mini's, quality of the 3D prints, etc.
You'd probably enjoy not having to say Games Workshop in a video for a change. ;)
Wtf...this game was massive during the 2000s and there is still a big loyal fanbase playing it in my region.
This vid is 2/10.
Really interesting video. I’d been playing SBG on and off for the last 10 years but have recently begun to move away from it and into other games. Part of the reason for that is I enjoy painting minis as much as playing games and the simple fact is the majority of the MESBG range doesn’t hold up miniatures wise when compared to other systems.
Was quite disappointed with the Warhammer stream event, really very little content when compared to recent releases for other GW specialist games. Hoping 2023 turns out to be a bumper year of new releases like after the previous box set but not hugely hopeful. Even the way they’re releasing the starter set seems odd- feels much more like a MTO than a new launch product they’re confident will sell
I've always wanted to play this - been sitting on it for years and have not played a single game :
it's fun! worth a punt
@@DiscourseMinis One day, one day. More importantly, putting my vote in for a LOTR video from you!
I went in with some friends and did a box split of PF at the beginning of the year. I chose Dead of Dunharrow just for the quick and easy painting. Aside from that and the few Dunharrow minis and the Three Hunters on foot, I don't have any other army. Have only played a few games, mostly Battle Companies. Which is fun to me.
For me, the Battlehost and new starter is great. I've been thinking about doing a Minas Tirith army for a while. Finally some shooting and magic!
I like the terrain. I understand it to be modular like most of the 40k range. You'll be able to build it in many ways and, with more kits, make bigger buildings and ruins if so inclined.
I might even keep the evil side just to have a third army option if I get more into the game.
I think it's a good set and looking forward to it's release as well as the Battlehost boxes. It's even gotten me more interested in other minis as well. A win/win for GW where I'm concerned.
Pricing? Seems about right for all that's included.
Hey Discourse, great coverage and largely how I felt about the reveals. Two things I'd love to see you cover 1) the middle earth strategy battle game and why the rules are so good and 2) if you could look into the Davale games patreon and maybe print off a few of their STLs would be really cool to see them get a shout out on your channel as an alternative to GWs LotR minis and hear your thoughts on if you like them or not.
If you field Gondor force as ‘faramir’s rangers’ I think it’s legal
Hum hum… They had most players of Warhammer Battle and Warhammer 40K in 2000´s… Thank you, bye.
The rules are fine as long as it’s no more than a few dozen miniatures on each side. When I run helms deep and mines of Moria I don’t use games workshop rules. Part of the issue is that both games are different one is a drive the other a dungeon crawl.
This is unwatchable, less coffee
I remember those old Lord of the rings magazines. I picked up a bunch at a carboot for about 50p each... Easily had a couple of every sprue from the early 2000s and plenty of metal miniatures and characters... Painted the lot at a fair price and did play a fair few games in the day.
Gave them all to my little brother, no idea what he did with them.... He also has my battle for skull pass models and a catachan army... I should get back in touch really... Just to get those models back (he's no games like me and dropped off the hobby in his teen years)...
And then everyone sees the inflated price tag and slowly backs away. At this point, I think Games Workshop's practice of asymmetrically raising prices is a way of making buyers subsidize their other products that don't sell. A real pity because so much of their problems would go away with proper research and community involvement.
As others have stated, I thought it was more geared toward miniature collectors. In fact although I realize they were produced by games workshop, I didn’t realize there was a war game attached. I thought they were just licensed Minitures. I’ve seen them a few times and I think they looked really good but they’re also quite pricey.
The barrel ride scene was one of the worst parts, followed by 200ish pounds of armor clad dwarf riding on shield floating on a stream of gold.
The best games that GW "killed" are Mordheim, Realm of Chaos and Rogue Trader which all still have an amazing community of people dedicated to those brands, playing with 3rd party minis and updated rules.
They've abandoned their amazing IPs in an unending quest to sell new products to potential buyers instead of the very cool assets they already have under their belt while pigeonholing their current brands.
Instead of inviting people holistically into the hobby they've wagered on capitalizing on nostalgia by making their games mostly out of reach for the average consumer and favored those indebted to their brand. If Tolkien could toss in his grave, he would.
They can sell endless new rulesets and iterations of their IP while shutting out people who enjoy the universe they created while making it totally in accessible to newcomers, hence the market bubble they've relegated themselves to. No more DIY. No more use your imagination. Only a strict adherence to their brand. I e we all lose having people involved in a hobby that is dear to us
Here in Australia quite a lot of forgeworld is quite similar price to other troops from the gw store because each HQ from the regular store is $60 here
the gondor force is actualy legal because it is meant to be run as the rangers of ithilien legendary legion where Rangers dont count for bow limit
gosh, i was so concerned that lotr sbg got cancelled like pirates from wizards of the coast and i was like 'noooo, just as i got back into it!'. Hope it's not messed with too much but i'm more in it for the collecting
The best game GW have ever done is BFG. Then Titanicus. Then Blood Bowl. Then LOTR.
I honestly think the old Perry sculpts for MESBG look much better than the new sculpts GW is putting out for the range. Theres a heroic-scale chunkiness with the new models that doesn't look right next to the true scale sculpts that the game has used for years.
I’m glad we got the Pelennor box set when we did. I think I paid $140 on Amazon. I spent a day assembling them and we’ve got them mostly painted. I’m mostly excited about all of the older books we scored for $30 second hand! The fellowship of the rings, The return of the king and of course the two towers! The game system in these books as well as scenarios and scenery building are seriously the best thing that GW has ever produced!!!
It was big after the first trilogy launched, in no small part due to the in-supermarket sold, collectible magazines they did with Deagostini. Multi-lingual, cheap, with tons of models and great hobby content. But after the Return of the King and a handful of follow-up supplements they've essentially abandoned the entire thing, merely releasing something a few times a year to seemingly being able to hold on to the license.
That said it was clear from the beginning that GW never really cared about the game and minis, it was in everything from the scale (with was part of the license from what I understood) to the in-range scale discrepancy. ALL the metal models were bigger in scale than the plastic, which is fine of the baddies. When every good character is a half head taller than the core troops it starts to really stand out.
I was kind of excited about this stuff, till I actually saw it. Poor sets, re-packaged, old stuff, seemingly bad rules updates, unnecessary, new starter set that replaces a far superior product in both content and value, LE models in big box setc etc. etc. It's just GW being GW..............trying to milk those who are still stuck with Stockholm syndrome / sunken cost fallacy. Shame, could have been a great hobby gateway product...........
You’re not looking at it from a marketing standpoint. With the new show coming out you want new ppl and a way to start/restart the game. You have to remember not everyone has played the game for yearssss. If I’m a new player, I don’t want to buy a over 3 year old box (correct me if I’m wrong). Hell, LotRs player’s should be happy they didn’t bump up the scale.
...this wasn't about Epic Armageddon.
I can't wait to collect my first female dwars of color army.
give them beards and I'm in
> why don't GW release a Warhammer Old World Legacy edition using LOTRSB rules so we can play skirmish level games with all our Old World stuff? You could just about knock out a game or two with the current LOTR lists, which roughly pass for some fantasy armies.
Games workshop has never stopped releasing new lotr models. Why do warhammer fans act like they stopped a decade ago ? It's all over the website
Saruman: if we don't update your box set our rights to IP will be lost
GrÃma: Even if we update our box sets, it would take a prices beyond reckoning, thousands.
Saruman: Tens of thousands.
GrÃma: But my lord, there is no such box set.
Love it there's nothing tying this to the Towers ?????? Really Faramir,Damrod, Madril and Gothmog all introduced in Two Towers, Osgiliath first seen in Two towers, new battle boxes with Minas tirith, Rohan which were first seen in Two Towers Eomer and Grima I know these models existed but both characters first meet in uh Two Towers yep deffinatly nothing to do with the Two Towers can 100% see your point
I'm having a nightmare with this. Haha. I played LOTR 20 years ago and always wanted to get back into it. When I saw the new box I decided to grab pelennor fields as it's such better value. All good untill I started to build the riders. GW put the new bases with the hexagonal holes in and the horses (from 2002) have the small round peg, that no where near fits the hex holes in the new bases. I phoned GW and they said the bases are right and to use green stuff to fill the gap. Also I was advised to sit and hold it while I glued it to the side of the hole! The problem is the peg and whole hoof fits through the hex hole. I asked GW to kindly send me some old bases with the proper wee round hole, but they are unable to do that. I'm feeling rather let down right now, because I have 12 horses a can't really use and GW's attitude was fix it myself.....
Woah hold up, I have the box let me double check
@@DiscourseMinis If it's the case, they are blind if they think it's the right bases! 😣
@@DiscourseMinis Well I emailed GW about the above issue I have and the reply was rather silly. In the first paragraph I was told to "use a tooth pick or bit of sprue to plug the gap so I can glue the horse to the base". Then in the second paragraph they said the bases were "considered the correct ones", so would only replace them with the same bases. So yeah, fix it yourself!
"You'll never be rid of me!" - Tom Bombadil
The event was just a FOMO promo, the message overall was "pre-purchase this new set now to make sure you have it by x-mas"
You're absolutely right about this being the best game GW ever made.
I thought that was universally considered to be Mordhiem?
@@josephskiles not by me!😂
It's battle fleet gothic but lotr game is good.
Nice, helpful presentation. I was getting interested in yet another thing here. Cheaper than a girlfriend, I guess.
Why buy LOTR old minis instead of buying brand new oathmark models?
The best game system about Middle-earth is still Battle of Five Armies (Warmaster-mod for LOTR/Hobbit). It is cheap to buy (3d-printed miniatures; free army lists for Warmaster). It is about armies, not about super-heroes. The rules are small and smart.
What about this? "Sometimes, the Archmagi of the Mechancium gaze upon their towering battle automata and the words “no, too small” arc across their cogitator circuits, which is where the Questoris Household fits in." Are people that bought in to the new 40k Chaos/Imperial Knight. Now kicking themselves in the back of thy heads!
Would say its woken up over the last 5 years, mostly due to the FB group and a number of really dedicated players. They have had quite a few releases since BATTLE OF PELENNOR FIELDS (Which your right, was/is a fantastic set and 85 minis was a huge bargain)
and just grabbed pellinor fields off of amazon for 144 us :)