I have a question regarding mag/dot combo optics (in the context of weighing that against lpvo) which I haven't seen anyone address. I am a new rifle owner, so I am speaking from a lack of experience, but looking to learn... Sorry for length, I did my best to explain myself concisely. As I am looking to set up a GPR with a primary range of 0-300 yds. (The context you mentioned going out to 250 makes sense, but given zeroing, I'll just call that 300). My question is based on a couple of assumptions: 1) It seems that most people agree that at CQB distances, nothing beats a red dot -- AND that a 2 moa dot is better than a 1 moa dot as the eye can more easily/quickly pick it up, and 2) using a magnifier, say 3x/4x, that 2 moa dot starts to get obtrusive say past 200 yds or so... Assuming both of those assumptions are (largely) correct -- I was looking at the Sig Romeo 4 series optics -- but specifically the Romeo 4s with the Ballistic Circle Quadplex Reticle (1 moa dot at the center of a 5 moa cross, inside a 65 moa circle), and the Romeo 4H with the Green Horseshoe Reticle (0.5 moa dot inside a 5 moa horseshoe). Photo of reticles compared side by side for reference: www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/gallery/ROMEO4H-RETICLE-UPDATE-9-29-2022.jpg I'm imagining that while at the range, not under stress, taking my time, I would have no trouble picking up the 1 moa dot or even the 0.5 moa dot -- but that if god forbid I was forced to use the rifle in a defensive capacity, using either the 65 moa circle, or even the 5 moa horseshoe as my point of aim, it would serve perfectly for CQB -- with the added benefit that under magnification, I could be more precise with the 1 moa or 0.5 moa dots shooting out to 200 or 300 yrds than would be possible with the more common 2 moa dots. Does this make sense?? Sorry for the length, I made it as short as possible hahaha...
Yes, so a smaller dot at distance can give you a more precise aiming point, close up it doesn’t matter as much. The further the target is the more the dot will cover. With that being said, when you magnify it, it is easier to see and you can see more where that dot is on the target better. A 1 MOA DOT will do just fine at those distances, to be honest the difference between a.5 MOA and 1 MOA dot is hardly noticeable to the shooter and within 300meters won’t matter. The reticle on the 4H looks nice from the picture but if it’s a green dot, keep in mind to turn it up. For my eyes (and everyone is a little different) the green washes out against white walls easier than the red, but just play around with your light and settings. I say try out the 4H and worry about the magnifier later (I hear hollowsun is coming out with a 5x that is actually clear and easy on the eye relief (but I have no personal experience with it to verify). The .5 MOA inside the 5MOA horseshoe seems good, as long as it’s not too close or bunched up for your eyes. I know Academy has different optics set up on rifle stocks, see if you have one nearby and if they have the 4H you can do a ready up drill for your eyes before you buy. The important thing for you is can you use it up close 0-30 yards fast and clear. I mention that distance because of self defense situations would most likely be within that distance. Anything further (in most cases for a normal self defense case) may be questionable and highly scrutinized by the legal system. Anything good for CQB for a sight can definitely be good at 250 yards. Remember when I mentioned the concept of GPR, that also fits into a civil clasps category to where you may have to identify something at longer distances with an LPVO so you can PID a threat to get out of the area before they can see you or to give you maximum stand off distance. But in our reality now with civilization mostly intact, I can’t see an advantage to using an LPVO over a red dot for realistic self defense distances unless you have a lot of land. Another thing to consider is even if you get the red dot and magnifier, you don’t need to add the weight of the magnifier until you either go hunting, play that range, or until law and order brakes down. Keep your setup as light as possible and use what works for your eyes and don’t use the factory batteries, buy a couple of Duracells. Also train and practice your offsets with your point of aim and point of impacts, usually (depending at what distance you zeroed for) you dot will probably be around 2 inches above your point of impact at 0-15 yards. I hope this answered the question.
@@Duty2Domicile Yes, all great info -- but naturally, it brings me to other questions... I'll try not to hit you with them all at once -- but as you mentioned batteries, I do have one. I am far more concerned about potential (however unlikely) civil strife scenarios more than a robber breaking in... That said, With the super compact solar chargers now, I was looking at the top brands of rechargeable batteries... It seems shelf life is the big limiter. I wonder then if a solar charge paired with rechargeable aa/aaa or even CR2032 batteries would be be a better idea... the voltage draw off an efficient red dot like a romeo is so little, that even if the rechargables can't match a fresh battery, they should still last a good long time, especially on a site with solar cells like the 4s... anyway, until the next video...
@@smgdroid if preparing for a time where there are no new batteries available, although rechargeable batteries can be done with a solar panel, I would suggest going a different route. In real combat conditions where you are carrying your weapon on you constantly, to where you may have to climb a small wall or barrier, slide or fall down stairs or a hill, and be in constant movement where your weapon is getting beat up. A good prism optic would be the way to go. A tough LPVO could do the job, but the stronger ones such as the primary arms and trigicons ACOGs are good for a fixed option. The issues I have with batteries (if this is the scenario you are planning for) is the rechargeable batteries could go bad, the solar charger could malfunction or brake. Now if part of a big community that can stay in a place and work together, that may be a good option, if on your own not so much. Plus winter time with days of no sunlight and the cold draining the juice, something that doesn’t need batteries is a great option. I used ACOGs to clear buildings, not the best but doable. I haters the Eo techs due to the battery life was bad and the auto shutoff to where while on patrol I would have to remember to hit the up or down button to reset the time. Not to go back on what I said before, but in this situation an LPVO would best suit you. You can scout ahead with magnification, it is still useful in closer engagements in the 1 power, and it does not require batteries. If you want you can still put a holosun red dot on the top of it that has the solar panels if you want, and now you have two methods for sights not to include folded iron sights if you want. But, unless it’s a nuclear war, even if there is civil unrest in some areas of the country, others may not be as affected so batteries may still be available. I just liked when I was overseas with the ACOG, I could see better, and I didn’t have to worry about it powering off. I know this probably didn’t help. But think about what can you carry and how durable it is. If the solar charger is tough and reliable and you have a few of the rechargeable batteries, then that may work to your advantage.
@@Duty2Domicile Of course it helped, thank you again for taking the time to write a thoughtful response. I'm middle aged and don't see much possibility of me forming part of a riflemen unit -- I'm imagining more of a defensive scenario where there are some unarmed loved ones behind me, and I'm trying to hold down a domicile. As for the batteries in a red dot vs holographic sight -- my first instinct is that the infinite eye relief on a red dot would be worth sacrificing whatever benefit that comes with a holo over a dot -- though, as I told you, I am starting from near zero experience, so I recognize that this is something I have to feel and see for myself. If the eye relief of a holographic turns out not to bother me, I may very well go that route... But that said, the 50-100,000 hour battery life on an efficient red dot might as well be forever, especially factoring in an efficient motion activation function and well implemented solar power assist -- kind of like a Romeo 4S for example. By the time that runs out, I'm sure I would've been able to change gear before then. Nuclear war or alien invasion are not things I worry about. Honestly, not home invasion either. If it were strictly a question of threat of home robbery, while I am not in any way opposed to people being armed and taking lethal action to protect their home -- that's not for me. I'm fairly confident that it will be mag/dot for me over lpvo, though I will absolutely get some hands on time with both before making that decision. 1 1/2 reasons. Reason 1 is that, as you said, a quick release mount on the magnifier and it goes on only under certain circumstances, and when not mounted, it is valuable as a hand held scope for identification/whatever else. The 1/2 reason is that it seems lpvos by definition are more delicate than red dots, excluding very expensive optics which are not a reality for me -- though I see myself climbing over bricks walls and hitting the dirt rather infrequently, so this may truly be a non-issue. At the end of the day, there is just too much to learn to get it all right on my first go. I am going to make mistakes and learn and discover preferences that don't occur to me yet. If you are interested in discussing standard BUIS vs offset, let me know. I have what I think is an unorthodox way of viewing the question, and I'd be happy to pick your brain... ;-)
@@smgdroid May I suggest a training course, tactical response. They have a fighting rifle course that is really good and the best investment you can make. The skills and mindset are what will win. I know it’s expensive to train and travel, but find a good course. Even if you go train with iron sights you will multiply your abilities further than any optic can do. The only reason I can speak to this topic is because yes, I do have experience in Iraq, but I got a lot more from the training courses I did after my time in the infantry. It’s like buying boxing gloves but no boxing lessons.
These videos are great man, appreciate the simple info.
No problem, I hope it helps in your next build or buy.
I have a question regarding mag/dot combo optics (in the context of weighing that against lpvo) which I haven't seen anyone address. I am a new rifle owner, so I am speaking from a lack of experience, but looking to learn... Sorry for length, I did my best to explain myself concisely.
As I am looking to set up a GPR with a primary range of 0-300 yds. (The context you mentioned going out to 250 makes sense, but given zeroing, I'll just call that 300).
My question is based on a couple of assumptions: 1) It seems that most people agree that at CQB distances, nothing beats a red dot -- AND that a 2 moa dot is better than a 1 moa dot as the eye can more easily/quickly pick it up, and 2) using a magnifier, say 3x/4x, that 2 moa dot starts to get obtrusive say past 200 yds or so...
Assuming both of those assumptions are (largely) correct -- I was looking at the Sig Romeo 4 series optics -- but specifically the Romeo 4s with the Ballistic Circle Quadplex Reticle (1 moa dot at the center of a 5 moa cross, inside a 65 moa circle), and the Romeo 4H with the Green Horseshoe Reticle (0.5 moa dot inside a 5 moa horseshoe). Photo of reticles compared side by side for reference: www.sigsauer.com/media/sigsauer/gallery/ROMEO4H-RETICLE-UPDATE-9-29-2022.jpg
I'm imagining that while at the range, not under stress, taking my time, I would have no trouble picking up the 1 moa dot or even the 0.5 moa dot -- but that if god forbid I was forced to use the rifle in a defensive capacity, using either the 65 moa circle, or even the 5 moa horseshoe as my point of aim, it would serve perfectly for CQB -- with the added benefit that under magnification, I could be more precise with the 1 moa or 0.5 moa dots shooting out to 200 or 300 yrds than would be possible with the more common 2 moa dots.
Does this make sense?? Sorry for the length, I made it as short as possible hahaha...
Yes, so a smaller dot at distance can give you a more precise aiming point, close up it doesn’t matter as much. The further the target is the more the dot will cover. With that being said, when you magnify it, it is easier to see and you can see more where that dot is on the target better. A 1 MOA DOT will do just fine at those distances, to be honest the difference between a.5 MOA and 1 MOA dot is hardly noticeable to the shooter and within 300meters won’t matter. The reticle on the 4H looks nice from the picture but if it’s a green dot, keep in mind to turn it up. For my eyes (and everyone is a little different) the green washes out against white walls easier than the red, but just play around with your light and settings. I say try out the 4H and worry about the magnifier later (I hear hollowsun is coming out with a 5x that is actually clear and easy on the eye relief (but I have no personal experience with it to verify). The .5 MOA inside the 5MOA horseshoe seems good, as long as it’s not too close or bunched up for your eyes. I know Academy has different optics set up on rifle stocks, see if you have one nearby and if they have the 4H you can do a ready up drill for your eyes before you buy. The important thing for you is can you use it up close 0-30 yards fast and clear. I mention that distance because of self defense situations would most likely be within that distance. Anything further (in most cases for a normal self defense case) may be questionable and highly scrutinized by the legal system. Anything good for CQB for a sight can definitely be good at 250 yards. Remember when I mentioned the concept of GPR, that also fits into a civil clasps category to where you may have to identify something at longer distances with an LPVO so you can PID a threat to get out of the area before they can see you or to give you maximum stand off distance. But in our reality now with civilization mostly intact, I can’t see an advantage to using an LPVO over a red dot for realistic self defense distances unless you have a lot of land. Another thing to consider is even if you get the red dot and magnifier, you don’t need to add the weight of the magnifier until you either go hunting, play that range, or until law and order brakes down. Keep your setup as light as possible and use what works for your eyes and don’t use the factory batteries, buy a couple of Duracells. Also train and practice your offsets with your point of aim and point of impacts, usually (depending at what distance you zeroed for) you dot will probably be around 2 inches above your point of impact at 0-15 yards. I hope this answered the question.
@@Duty2Domicile Yes, all great info -- but naturally, it brings me to other questions... I'll try not to hit you with them all at once -- but as you mentioned batteries, I do have one. I am far more concerned about potential (however unlikely) civil strife scenarios more than a robber breaking in... That said, With the super compact solar chargers now, I was looking at the top brands of rechargeable batteries... It seems shelf life is the big limiter. I wonder then if a solar charge paired with rechargeable aa/aaa or even CR2032 batteries would be be a better idea... the voltage draw off an efficient red dot like a romeo is so little, that even if the rechargables can't match a fresh battery, they should still last a good long time, especially on a site with solar cells like the 4s... anyway, until the next video...
@@smgdroid if preparing for a time where there are no new batteries available, although rechargeable batteries can be done with a solar panel, I would suggest going a different route. In real combat conditions where you are carrying your weapon on you constantly, to where you may have to climb a small wall or barrier, slide or fall down stairs or a hill, and be in constant movement where your weapon is getting beat up. A good prism optic would be the way to go. A tough LPVO could do the job, but the stronger ones such as the primary arms and trigicons ACOGs are good for a fixed option. The issues I have with batteries (if this is the scenario you are planning for) is the rechargeable batteries could go bad, the solar charger could malfunction or brake. Now if part of a big community that can stay in a place and work together, that may be a good option, if on your own not so much. Plus winter time with days of no sunlight and the cold draining the juice, something that doesn’t need batteries is a great option. I used ACOGs to clear buildings, not the best but doable. I haters the Eo techs due to the battery life was bad and the auto shutoff to where while on patrol I would have to remember to hit the up or down button to reset the time. Not to go back on what I said before, but in this situation an LPVO would best suit you. You can scout ahead with magnification, it is still useful in closer engagements in the 1 power, and it does not require batteries. If you want you can still put a holosun red dot on the top of it that has the solar panels if you want, and now you have two methods for sights not to include folded iron sights if you want. But, unless it’s a nuclear war, even if there is civil unrest in some areas of the country, others may not be as affected so batteries may still be available. I just liked when I was overseas with the ACOG, I could see better, and I didn’t have to worry about it powering off. I know this probably didn’t help. But think about what can you carry and how durable it is. If the solar charger is tough and reliable and you have a few of the rechargeable batteries, then that may work to your advantage.
@@Duty2Domicile Of course it helped, thank you again for taking the time to write a thoughtful response. I'm middle aged and don't see much possibility of me forming part of a riflemen unit -- I'm imagining more of a defensive scenario where there are some unarmed loved ones behind me, and I'm trying to hold down a domicile.
As for the batteries in a red dot vs holographic sight -- my first instinct is that the infinite eye relief on a red dot would be worth sacrificing whatever benefit that comes with a holo over a dot -- though, as I told you, I am starting from near zero experience, so I recognize that this is something I have to feel and see for myself. If the eye relief of a holographic turns out not to bother me, I may very well go that route...
But that said, the 50-100,000 hour battery life on an efficient red dot might as well be forever, especially factoring in an efficient motion activation function and well implemented solar power assist -- kind of like a Romeo 4S for example. By the time that runs out, I'm sure I would've been able to change gear before then. Nuclear war or alien invasion are not things I worry about. Honestly, not home invasion either. If it were strictly a question of threat of home robbery, while I am not in any way opposed to people being armed and taking lethal action to protect their home -- that's not for me.
I'm fairly confident that it will be mag/dot for me over lpvo, though I will absolutely get some hands on time with both before making that decision. 1 1/2 reasons. Reason 1 is that, as you said, a quick release mount on the magnifier and it goes on only under certain circumstances, and when not mounted, it is valuable as a hand held scope for identification/whatever else. The 1/2 reason is that it seems lpvos by definition are more delicate than red dots, excluding very expensive optics which are not a reality for me -- though I see myself climbing over bricks walls and hitting the dirt rather infrequently, so this may truly be a non-issue.
At the end of the day, there is just too much to learn to get it all right on my first go. I am going to make mistakes and learn and discover preferences that don't occur to me yet.
If you are interested in discussing standard BUIS vs offset, let me know. I have what I think is an unorthodox way of viewing the question, and I'd be happy to pick your brain... ;-)
@@smgdroid May I suggest a training course, tactical response. They have a fighting rifle course that is really good and the best investment you can make. The skills and mindset are what will win. I know it’s expensive to train and travel, but find a good course. Even if you go train with iron sights you will multiply your abilities further than any optic can do. The only reason I can speak to this topic is because yes, I do have experience in Iraq, but I got a lot more from the training courses I did after my time in the infantry. It’s like buying boxing gloves but no boxing lessons.