Gentlemen I have huge respect for the two of you ! That said , the majority of well knowledged and reasonably experienced gun owners understand there is no ideal do-all platform and caliber for any. Situations. As the old saying goes " don't compare apples to oranges" Anyhow love ur channel forever ur loyal fan . D . Kleen
Besides being fun to shoot, I always saw a PCC as a good home defense gun for someone that may not practice much or is less comfortable shooting. At least that's how I'm trying to convince my wife that she needs one.
Or is just a smaller frame person. I think they're ideal home defense for women to have. Handguns are harder to learn and manage the recoil, but a PCC gives them a lot more capacity with three points of contact and easier to be accurate.
Honestly if you live in an urban area, PCCs are probably your best choice for home defense, pistols take an immense about of training to get skilled at, having 3 points of contact makes it much easier to learn with and you won't have overpenetration flying into your neighbors house
@@Dcm193 False. This is neo-fuddlore. Yes, pistol rounds do penetrate drywall more than rifle rounds. However homes aren't just empty rooms. There's all sorts of things inside of a home that a missed bullet will hit. And 5.56 rounds penetrate those things more than 9mm. Paul Harrell did a video showing this. 9mm was stopped by books in bookshelves, stopped by a bunch of other items too. While 5.56 penetrated all these random objects easily. The best results in that video for avoiding over penetration was actually 00 buckshot. And yes Paul used M193 out of a 20 inch barrel which is supposed to be fragment city, but it still penetrated more. And I mean... Come on this is common sense. 9mm won't penetrate lesser armor but 5.56 will, and yet we're supposed to believe 9mm penetrates more items around the home than 5.56?
@@paddypibblet846 because a bigger thing going slower won’t penetrate armor better than a small very fast thing. Look at 5.7 x28. Well a miss with anything is going to prove no problem for drywall. But if you hit a wet bad m193 will fragment. Small fragments do not penetrate well. Where as 9mm will typically clog but if it doesn’t. It will still penetrate more and more wet stuff. Good reasons sub guns got replaced.
@@Dcm193 False again. The main reason sub-guns were "replaced" was due to two factors; 1. More and more criminals were wearing soft body armor and 9mm was not up to the task. They needed a round with more penetration. 2. As veterans came from wars and joined the police forces, they wanted to introduce the AR15/M4 pattern rifle into agencies since it's what they were used to. And again, you're ONLY discussing dry wall. Homes, businesses, factories, etc are NOT only empty structures made out of dry wall. There's thousands of objects inside of these structures (I named a few in my previous post). And 9mm will not penetrate many of these objects. 5.56 on the other hand, will penetrate these objects. This is especially important for counter-terrorism where explosive material's may be held by a metal container. Also there's been a couple of departments switching over to Pistol Caliber Carbines or Subguns. Turns out that shot placement is the most important thing for incapacitating a target, and this is done more easily with a low recoil and easily maneuverable weapon. As opposed to the AR15s blast and concussive force which is detrimental especially to the average cop that isn't a gun guy. Lastly the US Army just recently adopted a new Sub-machinegun in 9mm, the APC9 from Brugger and Thomet. Hardly what I'd call obsolete. Not to mention their still widespread use in Europe and Latin America.
Because you can carry on the same size with twice as much power and those same 30 rounds on tap. I'm not saying it, but that is a reason why someone would knock it
If a hollow point 9mm +p 115- 124 gr. Coming out at aprox, 1400 fps from a 9 to 14 “barrel doesn’t serve you for self defense your in trouble .🤷🏻♂️💥💥💥💥💥
Look, I've tried and tried to get my wife to use numerous 5.56 rifles and pistols. She simply does not like the recoil impulse of those platforms. I bought a Stribog SP9A3G and she loves it. She can shoot it all day and has no problem training with it. So, YES, for some people it does come down to a PCC being the better choice.
By recoil impulse I'm going to assume you're referring to the concussion blast of the 5.56.. 9/10 556 has maybe 50% give or take less recoil than 9mm in similar size firearms. Concussion blast and noise on the other hand..
Guys, @Riccochet IS talking about recoil. His lady doesn't like recoil. Has nothing to do with muzzle or concussion blast. The Stribog uses a roller-delayed blowback system that's super-soft (minimal/almost no recoil) to shoot. I have one, and even compared with other PCCs/AR-9s, it's the hands-down softest around; the roller delay makes a nice difference and is fun as hell to shoot. A lightweight, small/manageable gun with recoil that's negligible is simply the better gun for his wife. I don't understand why people argue with someone who's simply stating what works for them. He's introduced his wife to a gun that allows and even encourages her to train and enjoy the sport of shooting. She's found the holy grail, and they're greatly enjoying range time together. Simple as that. Good on 'em both. Shoot what you're going to shoot and have fun with it. Peace. Lastly, thanks to Eric and Chad for opening up the conversation! All valid, boys.
@@31Nigel Thank you for understanding what I was saying. Also, to note, the roller delay greatly reduces the amount of gas blow back when shooting suppressed. And now that my wife has commandeered my Stribog I think I'll order an AP5.
Love my Ruger PCC. Great step up for teaching people shooting that are not built to handle recoil. Mostly kids. Start with BBs. Move up to 22s. Then a 9mm PCC is a very soft shooting rifle to step to next that still packs more oomph than the ones mentioned previously. Its great with introducing adults to shooting too. I use my "ugly" Hipoint PCCs to let others new shooters use.
Its been my experience that pcc are more snappy to shoot than a full rifle like a 223 ar15. I believe its due to the blowback operating system most use
@@nateh2652 100%. If you’re not using either a relatively heavy rifle or something with either some sort of delayed system or a gas system, they’re more punchy than even lightweight braced 223/5.56 pistols. While it’s reliable, straight blowback just isn’t ideal.
Once again you guys bring reason into the conversation. The first PCC I ever shot was a Marlin Camp carbine in 9mm. A lot of fun and with my hand loads of the day, an easy 100yd shooter. The additional velocity from those loads was impressive. My wish list has a .45ACP PCC near the top.
Most people your shooting at aren't going to stop n ask if it's a PCC or a 5" barrel 5.56! As long as it goes bang when u squeeze the trigger, it's an effective gun for 90% of people n 85% of situations! These convos are def interesting to have tho!
Can’t forget about the original PDW the M1 Carbine and later the M1A1 Paratrooper which would still hold its own today providing you had good mags that worked with your gun
As a guy with very small hands my pistol options are limited to small, low capacity or small caliber pistols in order to fit my hand. A pcc/sub-gun that holds the magazine outside of the grip greatly expands my options
I feel you in the opposite end. I struggle with a handgun that i can conceal.. cause I'm 6'4 220... being able to palm a basketball doesn't help you hold a handgun. And this 7'2' wingspan sucks when shooting handguns (I'm infinitely better with rifles!) So a pcc is the best small package I can get into with the benefits of the stability.
>small hands That means small ____ Why would you admit that? Especially in the presence of ladies. I knew a guy, it was the size of his thumb but he knew how to use it. As long as no one brought it up in public he would always score. Something to ponder.
I usually keep my Keltec sub2000 9mm in my backpack but it is definitely basically a full size firearm once unfolded and deployed. Great video as always
About 9 minutes in, I'm curious how Chad feels about some of the recent 3d printed PDWs that run glock internals and slides to split the difference between a pistol chassis and a full PCC.
They should do a video on 3d printed guns and the future of the 2A community Edit: Maybe get Print Shoot Repeat or CTRL Pew on to talk about it with the crew
The digression into Microtechs is pretty much how every conversation I have with my brother goes. Just as you fellas said; every firearm has its uses. None are perfect. Some are better than others for given hypothetical, but at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, “what do I realistic need this for?” And for 99.9% of us, a pistol is all we need during our daily goings. At home, that’s what my rifle is for
Yes. Honestly speaking though. My pew pew of choice for home defense... varies depending on the state I'm living in and what my home looks like this tour. Am I in a decent property (rifle.. well 308 "pistol" with a flashlight. Am I in a duplex (handgun all day). Am I in Commifornia (I try to avoid going back, but when I was there... it was always a 12ga with 1 less than.. and then 6 of the real ones to follow!) So yes, they all have a use, but ultimately get what you shoot well.. and make sure it doesn't end up in the neighbors bedroom 3 houses down.
@@narref04 same with when they moved me to upstate NY. Had to sell my Mossberg 590 cause it was an “assault weapon.” I love your choices, though! I have the AR10 for the acreage, AR15 for home, and my pistol for concealed carry.
If I found myself and my family in an active shooter situation or faced with multiple attackers I'd much rather have my APC9K than rely solely on my carry pistol (I have experience with multiple attackers). And I appreciate your question when you ask yourself "what do I realistically need this for?", because I asked myself the same thing. These days, more and more it seems like having a PCC in a sling backpack is realistic and practical. It's a pain to carry at all whether in your waistband or a backpack, but I just don't want to get caught behind the curve.
@@darkpassenger65 I've picked up the habit of asking myself what a new piece of EDC kit will give me that I can't overcome with training. I have a couple of PCCs now, and honestly, I don't feel I gain enough from them to justify carrying them on me at all times. Basically, mobility is king in a firefight until it comes to armor, and we're not at a position in society where I feel a need to wear plates everywhere I go yet. Now, carrying something like an SBR in a rifle round? That gives you something a PCC can't. Energy levels that will anchor a 150-200 lb animal where you shoot it, with adequate shot placement. Preferably, you'd aim for something in the 7.5-10.5" barrel range with a folding stock/brace. I'd consider a shorter blast diverter as well, especially considering most scenarios like this occur inside. I'm not carrying anything like that in a bag yet. I'm still carrying my g19 everywhere, but I almost feel it's justified at this point, and I've been eyeballing a few bags that would accommodate that comfortably.
Been watching your gun gripes for years. Don’t know if you know but I as well as many other still love your videos and how you articulate yourself in a way that’s easy to understand more technical expertise
I recently purchased the Kel Tec Sub2000 9mm multi-mag. A perfect pair for my 9mm side arm. All my magazines are interchangeable between the carbine and handgun.
Doesn't that just mean that you have two outlets for your ammo/mags instead of just one for each caliber? Or another way, you're going through your stash twice as fast/likely?
Minute 32:57 ... a cool butterfly flies through the frame. HA HA! Sorry ... squirrel! Excellent discussion. This content answers a lot of questions for a novice like me. God bless you Eric and Chad!
Love my stribog. 8” bbl gives 9mm serious power. Super accurate. My other “PCC” is a 16” lever action Rossi R92 in 357 magnum. 357 out of that barrel is approaching real rifle power. 10 rounds of 357 mag at those velocities cover a lot of ground.
I own 2 Ruger PC9's, they are a blast to shoot. These firearms are great fun for the entire family. The best shooting to ever be involved in, IS THE ONE YOU DONT GET INTO. Great videos.
I think PCCs are ideal for many self-defense situations, considering the ranges in which they typically tend to happen. Particularly in an indoor situation with multiple assailants, such as a home invasion. Getcha something like a Raider or Roni with your preferred choice of 4" pistol, a red dot sight, cowitnessed backup sights, a flashlight, grip, and an extended magazine, and you're ready to rock. You'd have a tool that could handle 99% of self-defense engagements, again, when you consider the ranges in which most self-defense situations happen. I love the content, guys. Keep it up. Howdy, from Kentucky.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049 Honestly, I wouldn't be seeking multiple enemies. I'd fatal funnel them, and I don't have anything light-weight for that. I have something so much nastier than those piddly little intermediate cartridges. Regret is what the invader would have. Pure regret.
Excellent video as always! I have a Ruger PC9 which I have geeked out...m-lock rail, mcarbo robust upgraded insides, reflect sight, weapons light,, extended 30 round glock mags....sweet rig!
In some applications I think they're near perfect. Though 5.56 is a better stopper, 9mm won't blow out your eardrums as badly especially when shooting indoors. I value my hearing.
@@briant7652 300BLK Seems like the long way around the barn (getting a centerfile rifle cartridge just to shoot subs in it). I have a DI 10mm that I am thinking of swapping a DI 45 ACP upper onto. Unfortunately I don't live in a free state in terms of cans.
@@uclajdThats the beauty with .300 BLK though. You have subs for when you want to go quieter, and then you have supers for 7.62x39-ish behavior and performance. You're not limited to either "just" an longer range AR or "just" a PCC
An MPX with liberty 9mm has similar ballistics as the new SCAR pistol they just released with a 7.5” barrel with a lot less noise and can easily shoot subsonic 147gr.
I have a PCC for home defense, and I'll tell you my rationale (for whatever its worth). I wanted a gun that I won't miss with under 25 yards no matter how stressed I am, with an offhand-controlled light source (so I can operate the light and the trigger at the same time) and that won't deafen me or my family in a situation where we will probably need to communicate rapidly. I decided on a blowback design for easy suppressibility, and wanted something with at least some military pedigree. Of the various options that narrows things down to, I chose a Scorpion Evo 3 S2 Mini with a Rugged Obsidian on a tri-lug mount. Sure, it's a bit heavy, but I'm not going to carry it around much. It fits in a tiny messenger bag for when I do. It was a bit of a tough call between this and a 5.56 SBR, but the hearing issues pushed this Scorpion build over the top for me. If not for that, I probably would have chosen differently. Now here's to hoping CZ makes a 10mm Scorp some day :)
I have the scorp and it's just ok... Mp5 is better until you have to reload. Cmmg makes similar size 10mm. I'd like to see the b&t usw make a 320 xten mod.
@@breckfreeride I have a 3d printed chassis for my 320 similar to the B&T USW, fits against the back of the standard frame and clips to the front pic rail so it's functionally universal. It's super fun and takes any pic mounted brace or stock.Really only took 40 minutes or so to design, I'm surprised there's not a commercially available version
I’m actually a big fan of the ruger pc carbine in 9mm. Can get the mlok rail and it turns into a formidable home defense option for some people in which the AR platform is just too much.
I have the no frills base model and put a Texas weapons s system rear peep sight on it. Harvested a couple raccoons with it and. Dispatched a bunch of woodchuck around the farm
I think a PCC (16" barrel) is very useful for new shooters. Low recoil, more stable than a handgun, better optics mounting options and hopefully uses the same mag as your edc pistol. I think it is the 2nd best firearm to own after an edc pistol. A pdw with purpose built mags (cz scorpion or colt pattern ar9) is more of a special role and may not be for everyone.
The best part about PCC's is most can be broken down and put in a backpack and taken into the woods for a backpacking or camping trip. It's a good option for those who are in states that require a large amount of red tape to get a handgun license let alone to get the tax stamp to get an SBR or the like. Just so they can have a gun just in case.. That and they're just fun to shoot. I have a Ruger PCC-9 and I love that thing.
I've used mine efficiently for years. Carried a keltec sub 2k in my backpack and shot porcupines with it when I was logging and used my ruger carbines for wood chucks and raccoons around the farm. My wife and daughters shoot them quite comfortably as well. Its a good gun for smaller frame people and close range targets.
@@gunfighterzero the ruger has been very accurate. I put a Texas weapons rear peep sight on it. I like the rugers better but the keltec is a better backpack gun due to being compact and light weight
I have a 9mm sbr using the ar platform. Uses 556 mags that are converted. Muscle memory is important and cheaper to train using 9mm. Can use it to shoot in steel too. Its awesome suppressed.
That was the late , great Charlie Murphy with the "habitual line stepper" on the Chappelle show. Dude had the most amazing stories , I went down a rabbit hole of outtakes and un-used footage of his tales.
PCCs in a larger pistol caliber are something i'd wish become more popular. With the advent of 7.5 FK, 5 inch barrel pistols now can achieve similar muzzle energy to something like a PDW sized 5.56 or 5.45 caliber rifle (think HK416C or AKS-74U). The FK pistols are harder to shoot, but with moderate skill can be highly effective. Imagine this caliber in a more controllable platform like the Flux Brace or B&T USW. You'd have something 2.5 to 3 pounds, but capable of shooting and reaching 100 yards with ease while dispensing more energy at that range than many .44 magnum loads have at the muzzle. An "Intermediate Intermediate" caliber has a lot of potential. Something between a proper intermediate rifle cartridge and a typical pistol cartridge, optimized for shorter barrels.
Just had this conversation yesterday. I think they’re very useful for a pdw and home defense. Just versatile, fun to shoot, and isn’t as concussive as my .300 blackout. Until I get a suppressor, my pcc will be my go to.
@@coreymoyersyea that was my thing. I didn’t want to have to use ear pro with my defense weapon because at that point it’s unrealistic to believe I’ll get that chance to put em on and whether I use ear pro or not either way it has the potential to negatively effect me.
Same here. Using my PCC until my can comes out of lock up for my 300 blackout. Don't want to not be able to communicate with my family in an emergency situation
After watching you guys with the sub 2000 I finally got one, then a Winchester 94 in 44, then a Rossi 92 in 357. Then a 45 hi point carbine. So far my favorite is the 357. It is fast light and with hollow points it's perfect for raccoons in the yard. I just need a light mount for a lever gun. Of the military type cartridges, the 7.62x39 is the most forgiving as far as speed goes. It's not all that fast to begin with
I think it depends what you compare them to. Compared to an SBR.....I'd go with an SBR. Compared to a 3" barrel pocket gun? Give me the PCC Either way.....they're fun as hell, and convenient for travel and new gun owners love them.
I bought into the PCC craze when Keltec launched the 2nd gen Sub2k. I have since completely replaced all of the cheap parts with MCARBO parts to make it a dead reliable firearm. It’s my midnight boom stick that I keep by my bed. My wife enjoys shooting it and has also gotten way more accurate and comfortable with it. I would certainly take it into any fight where the range of engagement was 75 yards are less. I’ve got it zeroed in at 50 with Underwood 115gr +P Tac-XP. She’s a sweet little package, I don’t think that setup will ever replace a purpose built AR, but it’s a little easier on the ears outdoors and I’m sure way more in a hallway in my house at 2 a.m. with no ear pro.
What about dedicated PCC's? Things like the Ruger Pc9 or Kel Tec sub 2000. Both guns fold up or take down to become smaller, both have longer barrels and 3 points of contact for improved accuracy. Personally if I could I would but a ruger PC9 in a Magpul backpacker takedown stock, put a light and little red dot on it and keep a 21 rd Pmag in the stock.
One thing I like about my Ruger PCC is the extended range while out on the ATV or backpacking where I can use one or two of the same mags with the same ammo as my sidearm. It is a great way to control pests like snakes, rodents and other dangers at range with cheap ammo without too much report, less wasted shots, less ricochet potential, less overpenetration, or much more gear to carry while not having to dismount. It is a cheap, versatile option that does everything just right for land and camp management...unless bigger pests are a problem.
My EDC is a Glock 19. In the house, it will get me to my AR-15,10 inch barrel. My wife has a shield EZ in 9mm (only 8 round mags) it will get her to her AR-9, 7 inch barrel with 33 round mag. For her, that PCC is the PERFECT fit for large capacity home defense firearm. I’m working on getting her used to shooting my AR so I can get her comfortable with an AR for outside the house situations. Can’t say there are very many situations away from my house that would dictate a PCC.
My EDC bag has 4-33 round stick mags in addition to my spare mag on my hip. Away from the house I don’t have the desire to carry anything larger or heavier.
PCC in 9mm +P is perfect especially if you pair it with your main carry firearm. Armor isn't really a worry because areas of the body aren't fully armored. Hollow tips and ball points work for me.
@@wood-wheel-wizard thats not something you should rely on. In a burst of adrenaline i lifted the front end of a bmw out of the mud as a teen (5'10 -125lbs) if i know i was able to do that then the human body will do whatever it needs to to keep moving
I love that you explore things fully, and then, comes the reality check, life is more boring than the worst case scenario situations that some fantasize about, and others simply want to be prepared for in the extraordinarily unlikely event.
5.7x28mm has less energy on Average than 9mm. It's a common misconception with the 5.7. Sure higher, power 5.7 rounds can edge out a lower-powered 9mm, but when you compare the highest-powered self-defense rounds, 9mm has the advantage. For example, spear 5.7x28 is 288ft-lbs and it's 124gr 9mm is 410 ft-lbs. 5.7 has less recoil, more rounds in a typical mag and flatter shooting at range.
But you're not addressing the actual performance of a 5.7 when it hits a fleshy-target. There's more to the equation than simply energy. It's what the projective does with that energy when it impacts a target. My understanding is the 5.7 has similar characteristics of a 5.56, or 5.45, when it hits a target, as in it utilizes a "tumbling" effect that can leave some fairly nasty wound-tracts.
I live in the Seattle area and got to see a lot of the BLM riots and the whole CHAZ thing. All that really changed how I viewed conceal carry and, overnight my 8+1 m&p shield wasn’t enough. Having a PCC with extra mags in a off body laptop bag off my right hand side would have been ideal for an urban environment. You could even rivet a Kydex holster for it in a quick access pocket and have an even fast draw time. Honestly that whole situation with the BLM riots really was crazy for those of us who lived in the cities, especially Seattle and Portland areas
I like PCCs, they're a nice middle ground between pistols and rifles. Easier to shoot than a handgun, quieter than an AR. I keep one on my wall just as a home defense option with a Romeo5.
You guy's are so funny to watch and how calm you discuss about guns it's so relaxing plus a bit of humor. Awesome. And I love PCCs, got one Fab Defense Kpos for my Glock and I just love it. 😍
I been taking my KELTEC sub2000 in 9mm deer hunting, never saw a deer to shoot at with it but I’m sure it would take a deer! We have a late rifle season this year that extends until like March so I plan on using it then to take another doe.
I see a 9mm PCC as a fun gun to shoot. I wouldn't be carrying one around necessarily for personal protection. But I've got an MPX and my son has a Scorpion and they are great fun with a dueling tree or any paper targets that you can compete against each other with. In my opinion PCC's are more for fun than protection. If you have a few pistols and various AR's it's time to get a PCC.
Ian had a very good episode and this and felt that they could be very useful for SROs and Mall security where critical shot placement is a must in tight environments involving potential civilian casualties. But at range of 100yards or so Ian struggled to hit anything due to short barrel and reflex sight parallax. Great video as always guys!
I would say absolutely yes except in one circumstance: in the case of having some caliber that is subsonic as a standard, like .45ACP, to suppress that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to feed like .300BO (.45acp is about $0.20 per round cheaper than .300 at this time, comparing the cheapest offerings of both on ammoseek)... In every other situation, I'm just going to grab an intermediate caliber rifle. If I want something cheaper to shoot and light recoil, I'm just gonna grab a .22.
Thanks for sharing the information throughout the year!!! I’d like to take this opportunity to wish you guys and families a very Merry Christmas 🎄 and a Happy New Year 🎆🎊!!!!
Some buddy's and I from church were at the range with are conceal carry guns........playing battle ship with a paper target........I brought my AR9........we took turns hitting bullseye 🎯.....so much easier making good hits
I like having my PCC around for home defense and for if SHTF. Most PCC are higher capacity than most handguns,and IMO can be shot more accurately buy a novice shooter,and you’ll get a little better velocity as well. Another big reason is if SHTF you might be able to find pistol ammo easier, especially if it’s a bartering situation.
Would you do a discussion about having long arms in a vehicle? Maybe you could explain different tips for hide-holes or ways to transport it without break ins. Thanks!
I love picc 9mm because it is a great way to bring in a new person into the hobby. My father can't handle a rifle or shotgun round anymore since his shoulder surgery. He's loving his ruger pc carbine. It's all about including the people who have been involved too.
There's PCCs that take not only the same ammo as Glocks and certain handguns, but the same magazines too. If you've got a Glock, you can use the Vector, AR-9, or something that takes the same magazines, making it very cost friendly and generally useful. Pretty sure this channel actually made a "perfect pairs" video that covers this topic.
Glock, UZI, Scorpion etc mags cost like 10 bucks. Why even bother with Glock ones? Double feed mags exist for a reason. And Glock mags sticking out of guns not designed for them look disgusting with that backwards slant.
I used to think that there was no purpose for pistols, cannot shoot them to any (in my head) real range(and shotguns), but then i started watching you guys, toufladermaus, and demoranch, and i have really realized that they all have there porposes.
I do not like your analysis and comparison. I would recommend showing pictures or holding up these different arms. I do not need to see your faces, you are not comparing them, or are you.
@@JohnSmith-sb2fp sadly we only have the farmed kind here, but I can say that with the obligatory hollow points if you get it in the vitals of most game animals, they fall as if struck by lightning. Of course as with any pistol caliber carbine the wise shooter will keep their attempts within 100 yards. As the ballistic coefficient of a hollow point approximates that of a thrown brick ...
I love the kel tec sun 2000 for home defense personally or a truck gun it folds up and takes glock mags, so of you have a double stack glock it makes since to run that carbine
Check Ian McCollum's video when he was running a pistol in a chassis in one of their brutality matches. It didn't really work that well. I think of a PCC as having a 16 inch barrel. If I am going that route I want 10 mm in a pistol cartridge.
I love that you showed the POF with the 10.5" barrel. The Renegade 10.5" was my first AR for home defense and general use. I did get another at 16" for more range shooting with an LPVO, but 10.5" seems a good tradeoff to have 5.56 without having to deal with the extra length when I won't need it most of the time. They seem really well built.
Having shot a couple different 9mm pccs I can say they don't always have light recoil. One i shot has such a heavy bolt when fired it feel like someone grabs the barrel, and lifts it up while twisting it. The ar platform seem a little better but I haven't found one i like. Shot a .45lc lever action rifle and it was an absolute pleasure
PSA Marauders, come in .556 and .300blk. Strike Industries slick 5" tube, makes it 22" oal. It breaks down into a small briefcase. ACOG, strobe flashlight, green laser, 30, 40, 100 round magazines. My EDC. I am disabled, and have a power chair, and 4 wheeled mobility vehicle. A side pack, attached to the tiller, keeps it hidden and ready.
The pistol barrel 5.56 and greater caliber are insanely loud. I would hate to shoot one in the house. A 9mm through a 16 inch barrel has plenty of power and reasonable accuracy to 80 yards. I've owned a high point for so long that the paint has stopped wearing off the mating surfaces. I still enjoy shooting it. Bought it before PCC's became popular, pre Beretta, pre Ruger, pre AR-9. A long lasting couple hundred bucks including magazines. Now, I've got old arthritic shoulders, my wife's had one replaced. 9mm carbine is easy to shoot for both of us. Yes, we can handle 5.56, but not as many rounds, and at greater cost for reloading ammo.
To quote the late James Yeager (and I'm heavily paraphrasing): if I think there's a chance of being in a gunfight at a particular time and/or place, I'm making sure I won't be there for it rather than worrying about what sort of gun I'm bringing to the fight.
Get real! You guys have revealed firearms that I never heard of as well as those I’ve forgotten I have. Exaggerating a bit. But I do occasionally chant I’ve got one of those. I even remember when I can say I wish I had gotten one of those. Your content is filled with pretty much everything! I consider myself as part of the family!
When discussing PCC's and PDW's, please be aware that including a folding stock or brace will in most cases limit a Left-Handed shooters ability to engage the trigger. A collapsing extension provides the same ability to reduce the weapons overall length without interfering with trigger operation.
As a LEO, I was issued a S&W M&P40 full size as my duty weapon. When I retired, the department gave me that pistol as well as 3 15 round mags full of JHP ammo. I want to purchase a Kel-Tec sub 2K in the .40 caliber S&W magazine version as a compliment to the pistol. I completely understand the limitations of a PCC but for those of us on a budget, this combination is a great option. It can be carried in a small sling pack and used quickly in a SHTF scenario or any defenseive scenario. I would feel quite confident that I could stay on target at reasonable ranges 25-50 yards. With regular practice I'm sure 100 yard shots wouldn't be too difficult to make. If the threat was further away than that then I'd probably have time to get out of the area and or be observant. Last but not least, as others have said, nobody would want to be shot with a pistol round from either a pistol or a PCC, at any distance.
I'm glad all these options exist, and that 3D printing is absolutely exploding. You can have one for every occasion. Also highlights how good MCX Rattler is: bit heavy, but similar dimensions plus superior ballistics and ammo choice.
I would refer to them as PDWs. And no, they’re not useless. If you’re a security detail or if you’re just looking for personal protection, you can keep a PDW tucked under your coat and then deploy accurate firepower very fast.
The PCC is great, especially in 10mm. For an SBR/PDW, I'd have a suppressed 300blk. Either would suffice for most people, as would a pistol and a shotgun.
PCC's are helpful for urban or more densely populated areas. You want to put holes in the people that need them, but you don't want to put that hole through him or anything else for that matter. It's also going to be a lot quieter than a rifle (saying with like an A2 birdcage on each). I probably won't get serious hearing damage from 9 as opposed to 556.
@@Buck-kf6xq that's the plan. The other things still apply tho. I prefer my PCC for home defense right now till I get a can on my 300 blackout and have it properly tuned. Instead of a can I have a nasty muzzle brake that will deafen me for sure.
Besides collection - they are utterly useless. I used to advocate for it, but they didn't exist in bulk at the time. Since the Seals went the MK18 route from the MP5; it's been well documented that PCCs and the PDW category is a fall back and should not be a first choice. The latest influx of PCCs is all marketing. The marketing of 5.7 in PCCs specifically touts more rifle related ballistics. So why would anyone want a A PCC with pistol ballistics out of a pistol length barrel without full auto - they would not. Consider that you can easily get a 5 to 6 inch pistol with a red dot which gets you accuracy and now you don't have to sling it; you can holster it. If you absolutely need to reach out, a MK 18 or M4 will be compact enough and definately beat out a 9mm pcc which is already replaced by a pistol with a red dot on your hip. 19:10 Military studies have found that the 10.3 MK 18 wounds in CQB are akin to 308 in that range; most would consider this to be the minimum length for 5.56. 16" will serve most people just fine; if you're already considering carrying 6 lbs, carry another 1 or 2 lbs for an M4. With all this being said - if you are a PCC fan; be a PCC fan. We are in a golden age of firearms and we have so many choices that numerous platforms overlap creating redundancies. The important thing is that we welcome new gun owners or 2A enthusiasts as it is a right and it is among the most American things to do - being a responsible gun owner is a big deal! 35:00 - love the "likelihood" discussion as statistically speaking you'll most like have a medical / fire emergency thus having an IFAK near you or some sort of first aid is super important as well as having a fire extinguisher in the house of which probably 99% of the people watching this video probably don't have one.
PMR30 and CMR30 make an interesting combo that go far in a backpack. They are far from ideal from a pumpkin slinging standpoint and some need a little tuning...but they are super lightweight as far as firearms and ammo. Edit: They both use the same 30 round pistol mags.
I don't foresee many issues that a Glock 19 and a sub 2000 can't handle . Both fit in my backpack and take the same mags.They work for taking varmints and petting wounded animals out of their misery as well as self defense.I travel via car and truck alot (700-1000miles most weeks) and there's no telling what I'll run into from Marshal tx and Jackson Ms and all of Louisiana. But that's the heaviest I carry besides my edc sp101 and sig p238 for a speed loader lol. My drago day pack is only so big lol, and the g19 and sub2k fit nicely. Alternately my heavy bag contains a pmr30 and a 10/22 takedown, I don't live in Beruit lol. I keep knives simple , a big cold steel folder and a small hogue otf for opening boxes 😂😂 Thanks for the great content ,y'all please keep it up.
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Desert Tech Micron has 11.5-inch barrel...
Gentlemen I have huge respect for the two of you ! That said , the majority of well knowledged and reasonably experienced gun owners understand there is no ideal do-all platform and caliber for any. Situations. As the old saying goes " don't compare apples to oranges" Anyhow love ur channel forever ur loyal fan . D . Kleen
Besides being fun to shoot, I always saw a PCC as a good home defense gun for someone that may not practice much or is less comfortable shooting. At least that's how I'm trying to convince my wife that she needs one.
Or is just a smaller frame person. I think they're ideal home defense for women to have. Handguns are harder to learn and manage the recoil, but a PCC gives them a lot more capacity with three points of contact and easier to be accurate.
It's an excellent point. She should want one in case you ever need it to defend yourself and family.
Just gently tell her “honey, you always told me you’re happy with my short barrel, so don’t disappoint me now.”
I don’t own a PCC, yet I believe they’re great home defense platforms
@@paulis7319 😁
Honestly if you live in an urban area, PCCs are probably your best choice for home defense, pistols take an immense about of training to get skilled at, having 3 points of contact makes it much easier to learn with and you won't have overpenetration flying into your neighbors house
Pcc’s penetrates more than m193
@@Dcm193 False. This is neo-fuddlore. Yes, pistol rounds do penetrate drywall more than rifle rounds. However homes aren't just empty rooms. There's all sorts of things inside of a home that a missed bullet will hit. And 5.56 rounds penetrate those things more than 9mm. Paul Harrell did a video showing this. 9mm was stopped by books in bookshelves, stopped by a bunch of other items too. While 5.56 penetrated all these random objects easily. The best results in that video for avoiding over penetration was actually 00 buckshot. And yes Paul used M193 out of a 20 inch barrel which is supposed to be fragment city, but it still penetrated more. And I mean... Come on this is common sense. 9mm won't penetrate lesser armor but 5.56 will, and yet we're supposed to believe 9mm penetrates more items around the home than 5.56?
@@paddypibblet846 because a bigger thing going slower won’t penetrate armor better than a small very fast thing. Look at 5.7 x28. Well a miss with anything is going to prove no problem for drywall. But if you hit a wet bad m193 will fragment. Small fragments do not penetrate well. Where as 9mm will typically clog but if it doesn’t. It will still penetrate more and more wet stuff. Good reasons sub guns got replaced.
@@Dcm193 False again. The main reason sub-guns were "replaced" was due to two factors; 1. More and more criminals were wearing soft body armor and 9mm was not up to the task. They needed a round with more penetration. 2. As veterans came from wars and joined the police forces, they wanted to introduce the AR15/M4 pattern rifle into agencies since it's what they were used to.
And again, you're ONLY discussing dry wall. Homes, businesses, factories, etc are NOT only empty structures made out of dry wall. There's thousands of objects inside of these structures (I named a few in my previous post). And 9mm will not penetrate many of these objects. 5.56 on the other hand, will penetrate these objects. This is especially important for counter-terrorism where explosive material's may be held by a metal container.
Also there's been a couple of departments switching over to Pistol Caliber Carbines or Subguns. Turns out that shot placement is the most important thing for incapacitating a target, and this is done more easily with a low recoil and easily maneuverable weapon. As opposed to the AR15s blast and concussive force which is detrimental especially to the average cop that isn't a gun guy.
Lastly the US Army just recently adopted a new Sub-machinegun in 9mm, the APC9 from Brugger and Thomet. Hardly what I'd call obsolete. Not to mention their still widespread use in Europe and Latin America.
@@paddypibblet846 can you tell me the title of this particular Paul Harrell video? I couldn’t find it
why would anyone knock a 9mm weapon that can be easier and more accurately shot than a handgun. not to mention about 30 rounds on tap
The only reason why the handgun even exists is because you can't carry a rifle everywhere, all the time, and its hard to carry more than 1 rifle.
@@MannElite I agree. There's a use for almost every setup
Because you can carry on the same size with twice as much power and those same 30 rounds on tap.
I'm not saying it, but that is a reason why someone would knock it
If a hollow point 9mm +p 115- 124 gr. Coming out at aprox, 1400 fps from a 9 to 14 “barrel doesn’t serve you for self defense your in trouble .🤷🏻♂️💥💥💥💥💥
@@18echo I could do more damage with a Katana
Look, I've tried and tried to get my wife to use numerous 5.56 rifles and pistols. She simply does not like the recoil impulse of those platforms. I bought a Stribog SP9A3G and she loves it. She can shoot it all day and has no problem training with it. So, YES, for some people it does come down to a PCC being the better choice.
By recoil impulse I'm going to assume you're referring to the concussion blast of the 5.56.. 9/10 556 has maybe 50% give or take less recoil than 9mm in similar size firearms. Concussion blast and noise on the other hand..
@@michaelkuhle9866 I have a number of AR's and the Stribog has less felt recoil than all of them.
@@riccochet704 They wouldn't if you were deaf! You are mistaking muzzle blast for recoil.
Guys, @Riccochet IS talking about recoil. His lady doesn't like recoil. Has nothing to do with muzzle or concussion blast.
The Stribog uses a roller-delayed blowback system that's super-soft (minimal/almost no recoil) to shoot. I have one, and even compared with other PCCs/AR-9s, it's the hands-down softest around; the roller delay makes a nice difference and is fun as hell to shoot. A lightweight, small/manageable gun with recoil that's negligible is simply the better gun for his wife.
I don't understand why people argue with someone who's simply stating what works for them. He's introduced his wife to a gun that allows and even encourages her to train and enjoy the sport of shooting. She's found the holy grail, and they're greatly enjoying range time together. Simple as that. Good on 'em both.
Shoot what you're going to shoot and have fun with it. Peace.
Lastly, thanks to Eric and Chad for opening up the conversation! All valid, boys.
@@31Nigel Thank you for understanding what I was saying. Also, to note, the roller delay greatly reduces the amount of gas blow back when shooting suppressed. And now that my wife has commandeered my Stribog I think I'll order an AP5.
Love my Ruger PCC. Great step up for teaching people shooting that are not built to handle recoil. Mostly kids. Start with BBs. Move up to 22s. Then a 9mm PCC is a very soft shooting rifle to step to next that still packs more oomph than the ones mentioned previously. Its great with introducing adults to shooting too. I use my "ugly" Hipoint PCCs to let others new shooters use.
Its been my experience that pcc are more snappy to shoot than a full rifle like a 223 ar15. I believe its due to the blowback operating system most use
I'm inclined to agree that direct blowback PCC have more recoil than .223 or 5.56.
@@nateh2652 100%. If you’re not using either a relatively heavy rifle or something with either some sort of delayed system or a gas system, they’re more punchy than even lightweight braced 223/5.56 pistols. While it’s reliable, straight blowback just isn’t ideal.
@@nateh2652 It's a bit of a buck, but so much quieter and less dramatic than shooting a rifle - especially at an indoor range.
@@nateh2652 flash noise and concussion is less though imo
Once again you guys bring reason into the conversation. The first PCC I ever shot was a Marlin Camp carbine in 9mm. A lot of fun and with my hand loads of the day, an easy 100yd shooter. The additional velocity from those loads was impressive. My wish list has a .45ACP PCC near the top.
Most people your shooting at aren't going to stop n ask if it's a PCC or a 5" barrel 5.56! As long as it goes bang when u squeeze the trigger, it's an effective gun for 90% of people n 85% of situations! These convos are def interesting to have tho!
I'm comfortable with that.
60% of the time ot works everytime
Can’t forget about the original PDW the M1 Carbine and later the M1A1 Paratrooper which would still hold its own today providing you had good mags that worked with your gun
I'm waiting patiently for Aero to finish their EPC-10.
Also factor in ammo cost and availability for .30 Carbine. Also they are freaking expensive by themselves. Had one early 90s, wish I still had it.
M1 carbine has almost 2x the power of a 9mm, it's a much better round for a self defense carbine than a 9mm.
As a guy with very small hands my pistol options are limited to small, low capacity or small caliber pistols in order to fit my hand. A pcc/sub-gun that holds the magazine outside of the grip greatly expands my options
Agreed. But contrary to popular belief we usually make up for it with barrel length.
I feel you in the opposite end. I struggle with a handgun that i can conceal.. cause I'm 6'4 220... being able to palm a basketball doesn't help you hold a handgun. And this 7'2' wingspan sucks when shooting handguns (I'm infinitely better with rifles!) So a pcc is the best small package I can get into with the benefits of the stability.
>small hands
That means small ____
Why would you admit that? Especially in the presence of ladies. I knew a guy, it was the size of his thumb but he knew how to use it. As long as no one brought it up in public he would always score. Something to ponder.
Idk what’s up with gun guys and hand size when it comes to holding a gun
I literally don’t have a problem with any gun in my hand
@@TreeGod.me either. Some guns feel better than others but I've never held one I couldn't put on target because of my hand size.
I usually keep my Keltec sub2000 9mm in my backpack but it is definitely basically a full size firearm once unfolded and deployed. Great video as always
Watch that charging handle on the reciprocating bolt. It'll grab your facial hair in a second, if you're not careful.
Try to make a metal body for that thing.
About 9 minutes in, I'm curious how Chad feels about some of the recent 3d printed PDWs that run glock internals and slides to split the difference between a pistol chassis and a full PCC.
They should do a video on 3d printed guns and the future of the 2A community
Edit: Maybe get Print Shoot Repeat or CTRL Pew on to talk about it with the crew
@@thateffinguy2422 agreed
WhAt In TaRnAtIoN bObBy?! ThOsE pLaStIC gUnS wIlL bLoW uP yOuR hAnD!
That 1911 slide with ar15 FCG is spicy
@@BeltFedSelfDefense Very spicy indeed.
The digression into Microtechs is pretty much how every conversation I have with my brother goes. Just as you fellas said; every firearm has its uses. None are perfect. Some are better than others for given hypothetical, but at the end of the day, you have to ask yourself, “what do I realistic need this for?” And for 99.9% of us, a pistol is all we need during our daily goings. At home, that’s what my rifle is for
Yes. Honestly speaking though. My pew pew of choice for home defense... varies depending on the state I'm living in and what my home looks like this tour. Am I in a decent property (rifle.. well 308 "pistol" with a flashlight. Am I in a duplex (handgun all day). Am I in Commifornia (I try to avoid going back, but when I was there... it was always a 12ga with 1 less than.. and then 6 of the real ones to follow!) So yes, they all have a use, but ultimately get what you shoot well.. and make sure it doesn't end up in the neighbors bedroom 3 houses down.
There's no perfect solutions, only tradeoffs.
@@narref04 same with when they moved me to upstate NY. Had to sell my Mossberg 590 cause it was an “assault weapon.” I love your choices, though! I have the AR10 for the acreage, AR15 for home, and my pistol for concealed carry.
If I found myself and my family in an active shooter situation or faced with multiple attackers I'd much rather have my APC9K than rely solely on my carry pistol (I have experience with multiple attackers). And I appreciate your question when you ask yourself "what do I realistically need this for?", because I asked myself the same thing. These days, more and more it seems like having a PCC in a sling backpack is realistic and practical. It's a pain to carry at all whether in your waistband or a backpack, but I just don't want to get caught behind the curve.
@@darkpassenger65 I've picked up the habit of asking myself what a new piece of EDC kit will give me that I can't overcome with training. I have a couple of PCCs now, and honestly, I don't feel I gain enough from them to justify carrying them on me at all times. Basically, mobility is king in a firefight until it comes to armor, and we're not at a position in society where I feel a need to wear plates everywhere I go yet.
Now, carrying something like an SBR in a rifle round? That gives you something a PCC can't. Energy levels that will anchor a 150-200 lb animal where you shoot it, with adequate shot placement.
Preferably, you'd aim for something in the 7.5-10.5" barrel range with a folding stock/brace. I'd consider a shorter blast diverter as well, especially considering most scenarios like this occur inside.
I'm not carrying anything like that in a bag yet. I'm still carrying my g19 everywhere, but I almost feel it's justified at this point, and I've been eyeballing a few bags that would accommodate that comfortably.
Been watching your gun gripes for years. Don’t know if you know but I as well as many other still love your videos and how you articulate yourself in a way that’s easy to understand more technical expertise
It's true Eric has a very "everyman" vibe to him as well his manner of speech.
@@Squirtismostlypiss Yeah, him and Chad both. Yet you're able to gleam a lot of useful information from them both. :)
I recently purchased the Kel Tec Sub2000 9mm multi-mag. A perfect pair for my 9mm side arm. All my magazines are interchangeable between the carbine and handgun.
Doesn't that just mean that you have two outlets for your ammo/mags instead of just one for each caliber? Or another way, you're going through your stash twice as fast/likely?
Fantastic discussion on what weapon to use when everything goes wrong. Take care and be safe guys
Minute 32:57 ... a cool butterfly flies through the frame. HA HA! Sorry ... squirrel! Excellent discussion. This content answers a lot of questions for a novice like me. God bless you Eric and Chad!
Love my stribog. 8” bbl gives 9mm serious power. Super accurate. My other “PCC” is a 16” lever action Rossi R92 in 357 magnum. 357 out of that barrel is approaching real rifle power. 10 rounds of 357 mag at those velocities cover a lot of ground.
That was the reason the old time cowboys had a lever rifle and pistol chambered in the same cartridge, such as .44-40, .45 LC, etc.
@@larrygibson9273Cause they didn't have expendable income and just made do with what they had?
I own 2 Ruger PC9's, they are a blast to shoot. These firearms are great fun for the entire family. The best shooting to ever be involved in, IS THE ONE YOU DONT GET INTO. Great videos.
Yea if "fun" and not being involved in shootings is your standard, then PCC's are great.
I wish I still had my old service PC4...that was great. Not a fan of the takedown version.
I used to be one of those people who scoffed at PCCs... until I tried one. It was really fun! So I ended up getting one.
Shooting stuff is fun.
I used to scoff at them when I lived in a state that only allowed 10 round magazines. Now that I live in a free state they make alot of sense.
I think PCCs are ideal for many self-defense situations, considering the ranges in which they typically tend to happen.
Particularly in an indoor situation with multiple assailants, such as a home invasion.
Getcha something like a Raider or Roni with your preferred choice of 4" pistol, a red dot sight, cowitnessed backup sights, a flashlight, grip, and an extended magazine, and you're ready to rock.
You'd have a tool that could handle 99% of self-defense engagements, again, when you consider the ranges in which most self-defense situations happen.
I love the content, guys.
Keep it up.
Howdy, from Kentucky.
wouldn`t a red dot only be a liability at very close range inside a house
@@hotdog9262 Not if you're needing to get a precise shot off quickly, no.
That's why I also mentioned co-witnessed iron sights.
Multiple assailants attacking me at home and I'm reaching for a fancy looking pistol? Only as a last resort! I'm reaching for .300blk or 5.56 first.
Why would anyone put a 4" barrel on a PCC? It's already too big to conceal. May as well get superior ballistics with a 6" barrel.
@@bobbygetsbanned6049
Honestly, I wouldn't be seeking multiple enemies. I'd fatal funnel them, and I don't have anything light-weight for that. I have something so much nastier than those piddly little intermediate cartridges. Regret is what the invader would have. Pure regret.
Excellent video as always! I have a Ruger PC9 which I have geeked out...m-lock rail, mcarbo robust upgraded insides, reflect sight, weapons light,, extended 30 round glock mags....sweet rig!
In some applications I think they're near perfect. Though 5.56 is a better stopper, 9mm won't blow out your eardrums as badly especially when shooting indoors. I value my hearing.
556 isn't much at the reduced velocities of a 10" SBR.
@@briant7652 300BLK Seems like the long way around the barn (getting a centerfile rifle cartridge just to shoot subs in it). I have a DI 10mm that I am thinking of swapping a DI 45 ACP upper onto. Unfortunately I don't live in a free state in terms of cans.
@@uclajdThats the beauty with .300 BLK though. You have subs for when you want to go quieter, and then you have supers for 7.62x39-ish behavior and performance. You're not limited to either "just" an longer range AR or "just" a PCC
An MPX with liberty 9mm has similar ballistics as the new SCAR pistol they just released with a 7.5” barrel with a lot less noise and can easily shoot subsonic 147gr.
WORD!
Yeah, 7.5" rifles are ridiculous.
I have a PCC for home defense, and I'll tell you my rationale (for whatever its worth). I wanted a gun that I won't miss with under 25 yards no matter how stressed I am, with an offhand-controlled light source (so I can operate the light and the trigger at the same time) and that won't deafen me or my family in a situation where we will probably need to communicate rapidly. I decided on a blowback design for easy suppressibility, and wanted something with at least some military pedigree. Of the various options that narrows things down to, I chose a Scorpion Evo 3 S2 Mini with a Rugged Obsidian on a tri-lug mount.
Sure, it's a bit heavy, but I'm not going to carry it around much. It fits in a tiny messenger bag for when I do. It was a bit of a tough call between this and a 5.56 SBR, but the hearing issues pushed this Scorpion build over the top for me. If not for that, I probably would have chosen differently. Now here's to hoping CZ makes a 10mm Scorp some day :)
I have the scorp and it's just ok... Mp5 is better until you have to reload. Cmmg makes similar size 10mm. I'd like to see the b&t usw make a 320 xten mod.
@@breckfreeride I have a 3d printed chassis for my 320 similar to the B&T USW, fits against the back of the standard frame and clips to the front pic rail so it's functionally universal. It's super fun and takes any pic mounted brace or stock.Really only took 40 minutes or so to design, I'm surprised there's not a commercially available version
I bought a1095 high point 10mm carbine,it eats anything feed thru and takes the abuse of everything in my truck cab & floorboard,dirt & dog hair lol
Great production quality. You guys have come so far!
Sub 2000 is one of my favorite firearms very useful very practical and very fun. Highly recommended!
I’m actually a big fan of the ruger pc carbine in 9mm. Can get the mlok rail and it turns into a formidable home defense option for some people in which the AR platform is just too much.
When an intruder or two or three are barreling down your hallway in the middle of night you wont think an AR is too much.
I had a pc9 but I have a Glock in a roni chassi now and and i love the Micro roni it’s a great pcc. And it has rails on the side for tactical shit
I have the no frills base model and put a Texas weapons s system rear peep sight on it. Harvested a couple raccoons with it and. Dispatched a bunch of woodchuck around the farm
@@MannElite glock happy stick will fix that issue
@@warlok363 4 - sure......n love mine too!!!
7.5 inch 300 Black Out. Fixed Irons sights with SRO /Scalerworks mount. It's never faltered and very accurate.
I think a PCC (16" barrel) is very useful for new shooters. Low recoil, more stable than a handgun, better optics mounting options and hopefully uses the same mag as your edc pistol. I think it is the 2nd best firearm to own after an edc pistol.
A pdw with purpose built mags (cz scorpion or colt pattern ar9) is more of a special role and may not be for everyone.
9mm 8 inch barrel pcc i recommend an Ar-V thank me later.
The best part about PCC's is most can be broken down and put in a backpack and taken into the woods for a backpacking or camping trip. It's a good option for those who are in states that require a large amount of red tape to get a handgun license let alone to get the tax stamp to get an SBR or the like. Just so they can have a gun just in case.. That and they're just fun to shoot. I have a Ruger PCC-9 and I love that thing.
I've used mine efficiently for years. Carried a keltec sub 2k in my backpack and shot porcupines with it when I was logging and used my ruger carbines for wood chucks and raccoons around the farm. My wife and daughters shoot them quite comfortably as well. Its a good gun for smaller frame people and close range targets.
And you are getting a couple hundred more FPS out of that 16" barrel over a pistol
I like much of keltecs products!
@@gunfighterzero the ruger has been very accurate. I put a Texas weapons rear peep sight on it. I like the rugers better but the keltec is a better backpack gun due to being compact and light weight
@@cornpopwasabaddude4188 yea I like the rugers too
I am a female FFL and l love pcc9mm with 4"barrels. I enjoyed your gun gripe video. Very informative.
As an FFL, what state are you in if I may ask?
@@joehaney5186The one away from you, lol
I have a 9mm sbr using the ar platform. Uses 556 mags that are converted. Muscle memory is important and cheaper to train using 9mm. Can use it to shoot in steel too. Its awesome suppressed.
That was the late , great Charlie Murphy with the "habitual line stepper" on the Chappelle show.
Dude had the most amazing stories , I went down a rabbit hole of outtakes and un-used footage of his tales.
PCCs in a larger pistol caliber are something i'd wish become more popular. With the advent of 7.5 FK, 5 inch barrel pistols now can achieve similar muzzle energy to something like a PDW sized 5.56 or 5.45 caliber rifle (think HK416C or AKS-74U).
The FK pistols are harder to shoot, but with moderate skill can be highly effective. Imagine this caliber in a more controllable platform like the Flux Brace or B&T USW. You'd have something 2.5 to 3 pounds, but capable of shooting and reaching 100 yards with ease while dispensing more energy at that range than many .44 magnum loads have at the muzzle.
An "Intermediate Intermediate" caliber has a lot of potential. Something between a proper intermediate rifle cartridge and a typical pistol cartridge, optimized for shorter barrels.
Just had this conversation yesterday. I think they’re very useful for a pdw and home defense. Just versatile, fun to shoot, and isn’t as concussive as my .300 blackout. Until I get a suppressor, my pcc will be my go to.
Nearly everyone who says to use an AR-15 for home defense has never shot one indoors without earpro before. It's no joke.
@@coreymoyersyea that was my thing. I didn’t want to have to use ear pro with my defense weapon because at that point it’s unrealistic to believe I’ll get that chance to put em on and whether I use ear pro or not either way it has the potential to negatively effect me.
Same here. Using my PCC until my can comes out of lock up for my 300 blackout. Don't want to not be able to communicate with my family in an emergency situation
@@coreymoyers Especially in a state that considers flash hiders as assault weapon feature. The alternative of muzzle brakes are even more concussive.
@@coreymoyers dont forget the dogs and cats in your house
After watching you guys with the sub 2000 I finally got one, then a Winchester 94 in 44, then a Rossi 92 in 357. Then a 45 hi point carbine. So far my favorite is the 357. It is fast light and with hollow points it's perfect for raccoons in the yard. I just need a light mount for a lever gun. Of the military type cartridges, the 7.62x39 is the most forgiving as far as speed goes. It's not all that fast to begin with
First? PCCs aren't useless, cheap ammo, low recoil, user friendly, low risk of overpenetration.
Very very outstanding video guy’s. Clean language too. Thanks. Keep up the good work. Thanks a lot friend. SC Navy vet. 1965. 🇺🇸😊
I think it depends what you compare them to. Compared to an SBR.....I'd go with an SBR. Compared to a 3" barrel pocket gun? Give me the PCC
Either way.....they're fun as hell, and convenient for travel and new gun owners love them.
I bought into the PCC craze when Keltec launched the 2nd gen Sub2k. I have since completely replaced all of the cheap parts with MCARBO parts to make it a dead reliable firearm. It’s my midnight boom stick that I keep by my bed. My wife enjoys shooting it and has also gotten way more accurate and comfortable with it. I would certainly take it into any fight where the range of engagement was 75 yards are less.
I’ve got it zeroed in at 50 with Underwood 115gr +P Tac-XP. She’s a sweet little package, I don’t think that setup will ever replace a purpose built AR, but it’s a little easier on the ears outdoors and I’m sure way more in a hallway in my house at 2 a.m. with no ear pro.
What about dedicated PCC's? Things like the Ruger Pc9 or Kel Tec sub 2000. Both guns fold up or take down to become smaller, both have longer barrels and 3 points of contact for improved accuracy. Personally if I could I would but a ruger PC9 in a Magpul backpacker takedown stock, put a light and little red dot on it and keep a 21 rd Pmag in the stock.
That's my exact setup, PC9/Backpacker/Vortex Venom/Streamlight TLR1 HL/MCarbo internals. I love it.
Too heavy. Too inconvenient.
One thing I like about my Ruger PCC is the extended range while out on the ATV or backpacking where I can use one or two of the same mags with the same ammo as my sidearm. It is a great way to control pests like snakes, rodents and other dangers at range with cheap ammo without too much report, less wasted shots, less ricochet potential, less overpenetration, or much more gear to carry while not having to dismount. It is a cheap, versatile option that does everything just right for land and camp management...unless bigger pests are a problem.
Beretta Cx4 Storm 9mm owner here. No plans to sell or trade. As I get older itbecomes more likely to be one of the last long guns I divest myself of.
great gun...longer barrel= not as loud
My EDC is a Glock 19. In the house, it will get me to my AR-15,10 inch barrel.
My wife has a shield EZ in 9mm (only 8 round mags) it will get her to her AR-9, 7 inch barrel with 33 round mag. For her, that PCC is the PERFECT fit for large capacity home defense firearm. I’m working on getting her used to shooting my AR so I can get her comfortable with an AR for outside the house situations.
Can’t say there are very many situations away from my house that would dictate a PCC.
My EDC bag has 4-33 round stick mags in addition to my spare mag on my hip. Away from the house I don’t have the desire to carry anything larger or heavier.
PCC in 9mm +P is perfect especially if you pair it with your main carry firearm. Armor isn't really a worry because areas of the body aren't fully armored. Hollow tips and ball points work for me.
The armor will most likely not puncture, but that “bullet punch” you will feel.
@@wood-wheel-wizard thats not something you should rely on. In a burst of adrenaline i lifted the front end of a bmw out of the mud as a teen (5'10 -125lbs) if i know i was able to do that then the human body will do whatever it needs to to keep moving
I love that you explore things fully, and then, comes the reality check, life is more boring than the worst case scenario situations that some fantasize about, and others simply want to be prepared for in the extraordinarily unlikely event.
5.7x28mm has less energy on Average than 9mm. It's a common misconception with the 5.7.
Sure higher, power 5.7 rounds can edge out a lower-powered 9mm, but when you compare the highest-powered self-defense rounds, 9mm has the advantage.
For example, spear 5.7x28 is 288ft-lbs and it's 124gr 9mm is 410 ft-lbs.
5.7 has less recoil, more rounds in a typical mag and flatter shooting at range.
But you're not addressing the actual performance of a 5.7 when it hits a fleshy-target. There's more to the equation than simply energy. It's what the projective does with that energy when it impacts a target. My understanding is the 5.7 has similar characteristics of a 5.56, or 5.45, when it hits a target, as in it utilizes a "tumbling" effect that can leave some fairly nasty wound-tracts.
@@MrCooper89 5.7 is also a spitzer cartridge like 5.56/5.45 instead of what you usually find with rounded pistol calibers.
@@MrCooper89 tumbling does not do anything more than expansion does. Both dump energy but in different ways.
Don’t forget 5.7 was designed to defeat body armor which it does.
@@505fastlife6It defeats 1990's lvl 3 armor, which almost everything nowadays does.
I live in the Seattle area and got to see a lot of the BLM riots and the whole CHAZ thing. All that really changed how I viewed conceal carry and, overnight my 8+1 m&p shield wasn’t enough. Having a PCC with extra mags in a off body laptop bag off my right hand side would have been ideal for an urban environment. You could even rivet a Kydex holster for it in a quick access pocket and have an even fast draw time. Honestly that whole situation with the BLM riots really was crazy for those of us who lived in the cities, especially Seattle and Portland areas
@@paddypibblet846 I agree, I really like off body carry for that reason.
I like PCCs, they're a nice middle ground between pistols and rifles. Easier to shoot than a handgun, quieter than an AR. I keep one on my wall just as a home defense option with a Romeo5.
You guy's are so funny to watch and how calm you discuss about guns it's so relaxing plus a bit of humor. Awesome. And I love PCCs, got one Fab Defense Kpos for my Glock and I just love it. 😍
I been taking my KELTEC sub2000 in 9mm deer hunting, never saw a deer to shoot at with it but I’m sure it would take a deer! We have a late rifle season this year that extends until like March so I plan on using it then to take another doe.
It'll work. I smoked a 160lbs boar with my 9mm AR PCC. Ran a whole 10 yards and fell over dead.
@@steve390gold cool!
Would love to see that!
Is this bait?
@@RpMcMurphy_ yes, has to be bigger than a .22 so .23 or larger caliber in VA
My favorite go to guns are the PX4 and CX4 storm Berettas in .40 cal
I see a 9mm PCC as a fun gun to shoot. I wouldn't be carrying one around necessarily for personal protection. But I've got an MPX and my son has a Scorpion and they are great fun with a dueling tree or any paper targets that you can compete against each other with. In my opinion PCC's are more for fun than protection. If you have a few pistols and various AR's it's time to get a PCC.
you can carry two 9mm mags in the same physical space as a single 223 mag. Meaning space saving.
@@neglectfulsausage7689 9mm JHP’s really hurt. Also you won’t kill your neighbor or family thru the wall.
@@Mudkips4lif3 I prefer solid brass. The death is on the head on the person committing a felony anyway. Its called felony murder.
@@neglectfulsausage7689Okay and? 20rd 5.56 mags easily fit in pockets.
@@georgewhitworth9742 40 rds of 9mm vs 20 rds of 5.56
you typed before thinking
Ian had a very good episode and this and felt that they could be very useful for SROs and Mall security where critical shot placement is a must in tight environments involving potential civilian casualties. But at range of 100yards or so Ian struggled to hit anything due to short barrel and reflex sight parallax. Great video as always guys!
I would say absolutely yes except in one circumstance: in the case of having some caliber that is subsonic as a standard, like .45ACP, to suppress that doesn't cost an arm and a leg to feed like .300BO (.45acp is about $0.20 per round cheaper than .300 at this time, comparing the cheapest offerings of both on ammoseek)... In every other situation, I'm just going to grab an intermediate caliber rifle.
If I want something cheaper to shoot and light recoil, I'm just gonna grab a .22.
9mm subsonics are even quieter and cheaper than .45
@@zdub8438 Yeah but you can't always find them, but just about any off the shelf .45acp will be subsonic.
@@Divenity ammoseek
Almost any 147 gr 9mm is subsonic most of them are under 1,000 fps
Which one puts a bigger hole in you? Really the main point of a subsonic round.
My favorite deer killer I've ever had was the M1A1 .30 carbon.
Thanks for sharing the information throughout the year!!! I’d like to take this opportunity to wish you guys and families a very Merry Christmas 🎄 and a Happy New Year 🎆🎊!!!!
Some buddy's and I from church were at the range with are conceal carry guns........playing battle ship with a paper target........I brought my AR9........we took turns hitting bullseye 🎯.....so much easier making good hits
I like having my PCC around for home defense and for if SHTF. Most PCC are higher capacity than most handguns,and IMO can be shot more accurately buy a novice shooter,and you’ll get a little better velocity as well. Another big reason is if SHTF you might be able to find pistol ammo easier, especially if it’s a bartering situation.
Don't forget "cowboy match" with Glock mags.
50 round drums 33's ECT.
I'm a fan of my pcc.
I have a PCC in 40 S&W. That longer barrel makes that round really pack a punch within 200 yards.
Would you do a discussion about having long arms in a vehicle? Maybe you could explain different tips for hide-holes or ways to transport it without break ins. Thanks!
James Yeager has a video on that subject, check it out it's a good watch. Basically, cut proof chain, good lock, lock to solid base.
I love picc 9mm because it is a great way to bring in a new person into the hobby. My father can't handle a rifle or shotgun round anymore since his shoulder surgery. He's loving his ruger pc carbine. It's all about including the people who have been involved too.
22lr is great for the introduction, but a little bit more for the experienced person goes a long way.
There's PCCs that take not only the same ammo as Glocks and certain handguns, but the same magazines too. If you've got a Glock, you can use the Vector, AR-9, or something that takes the same magazines, making it very cost friendly and generally useful. Pretty sure this channel actually made a "perfect pairs" video that covers this topic.
Glock, UZI, Scorpion etc mags cost like 10 bucks. Why even bother with Glock ones? Double feed mags exist for a reason. And Glock mags sticking out of guns not designed for them look disgusting with that backwards slant.
@@Mike-yy4ll yes 🙌🏽 I run an AR-V it’s ar9 with scorpion mags looks good shoots good
@@PollyMercocet How is that gun? I've been looking at that gun but have seen mixed reviews. Hopefully that was just the 1st generation AR-Vs.
@@Mike-yy4ll because they also work with the glock you're carrying.
I used to think that there was no purpose for pistols, cannot shoot them to any (in my head) real range(and shotguns), but then i started watching you guys, toufladermaus, and demoranch, and i have really realized that they all have there porposes.
If I could have a full auto sub gun then I would consider a PCC. Since I can only have semiautomatics I would rather have a rifle caliber PDW.
I do not like your analysis and comparison. I would recommend showing pictures or holding up these different arms. I do not need to see your faces, you are not comparing them, or are you.
"A motorcycle gang of bears"!! 😂🤣 I am absolutely using that!
Lever guns in .357 and 44 turn those pistol calibers into a whole different animal
I like em too.
I guarantee a bad guy who was on the receiving end of a .357 out of a lever-action carbine would have a very bad day.
@@kirkmooneyham yeah, when used on ground hogs, the 44 from a lever gun turns them into inside out meat shrapnel
@@rodgerneeb301 how is the 357 lever at hog hunting? Any experience??
@@JohnSmith-sb2fp sadly we only have the farmed kind here, but I can say that with the obligatory hollow points if you get it in the vitals of most game animals, they fall as if struck by lightning. Of course as with any pistol caliber carbine the wise shooter will keep their attempts within 100 yards. As the ballistic coefficient of a hollow point approximates that of a thrown brick ...
I choose 11.5” for my AR build and like it quite a bit. Great show guys. Thanks.
I love the kel tec sun 2000 for home defense personally or a truck gun it folds up and takes glock mags, so of you have a double stack glock it makes since to run that carbine
At 32:56 a Monarch butterfly flutters by in slow motion......cool!
Check Ian McCollum's video when he was running a pistol in a chassis in one of their brutality matches. It didn't really work that well. I think of a PCC as having a 16 inch barrel. If I am going that route I want 10 mm in a pistol cartridge.
It does take some practice to get the manipulation of the chassis.
I love that you showed the POF with the 10.5" barrel. The Renegade 10.5" was my first AR for home defense and general use. I did get another at 16" for more range shooting with an LPVO, but 10.5" seems a good tradeoff to have 5.56 without having to deal with the extra length when I won't need it most of the time. They seem really well built.
Having shot a couple different 9mm pccs I can say they don't always have light recoil. One i shot has such a heavy bolt when fired it feel like someone grabs the barrel, and lifts it up while twisting it. The ar platform seem a little better but I haven't found one i like. Shot a .45lc lever action rifle and it was an absolute pleasure
Yep scorpion kicks, moves way more than my 556...
PSA Marauders, come in .556 and .300blk. Strike Industries slick 5" tube, makes it 22" oal. It breaks down into a small briefcase. ACOG, strobe flashlight, green laser, 30, 40, 100 round magazines. My EDC. I am disabled, and have a power chair, and 4 wheeled mobility vehicle. A side pack, attached to the tiller, keeps it hidden and ready.
What we need is a PCC chambered in 7.5FK!!!!!! Now that would be an absolute game changer!!!!
Exactly - the FK BRNO PSD (7.5 FK) already accomplishes all of this. That's what it was designed for.
Great show! I've got Taurus G3 in a MCK Gen 2. It's my go too PCC
The pistol barrel 5.56 and greater caliber are insanely loud. I would hate to shoot one in the house. A 9mm through a 16 inch barrel has plenty of power and reasonable accuracy to 80 yards.
I've owned a high point for so long that the paint has stopped wearing off the mating surfaces. I still enjoy shooting it. Bought it before PCC's became popular, pre Beretta, pre Ruger, pre AR-9. A long lasting couple hundred bucks including magazines.
Now, I've got old arthritic shoulders, my wife's had one replaced. 9mm carbine is easy to shoot for both of us. Yes, we can handle 5.56, but not as many rounds, and at greater cost for reloading ammo.
Impressive you bought your hi point before AR-9's popularity considering they were popular in the 70's thru 90's
Impressive you bought your hi point before AR-9's popularity considering they were popular in the 70's thru 90's
I’ve been thinking about two scenarios recently and this video helped me answered both. Backpack gun and truck/hunting gun
Is a .357 lever gun a PCC?
Yes
To quote the late James Yeager (and I'm heavily paraphrasing): if I think there's a chance of being in a gunfight at a particular time and/or place, I'm making sure I won't be there for it rather than worrying about what sort of gun I'm bringing to the fight.
If I could make my own PCC it woul me just end up being a Sub 2k. The perfect PCC.
I just wish it folded sideways instead
Get real! You guys have revealed firearms that I never heard of as well as those I’ve forgotten I have. Exaggerating a bit. But I do occasionally chant I’ve got one of those. I even remember when I can say I wish I had gotten one of those. Your content is filled with pretty much everything! I consider myself as part of the family!
Wonder if 44 magnum could make a comeback in a PCC
I’d honestly buy a Ruger-made Marlin .44 lever gun with an mlok handguard and either ghost ring sights or a rail for a micro optic like Holosun
I’d love to see the Ruger .44 carbine make a comeback.
@@bobp4036 They promised they'd start making the Marlin 1894's again. I am so waiting for the 1894 SBL in .44 mag.
When discussing PCC's and PDW's, please be aware that including a folding stock or brace will in most cases limit a Left-Handed shooters ability to engage the trigger. A collapsing extension provides the same ability to reduce the weapons overall length without interfering with trigger operation.
PCCs are freaking awesome and no they are NOT useless. Period. Hard stop.
Personal defense weapon (PDW) is exactly what I'm looking for to defend myself and my family.
As a LEO, I was issued a S&W M&P40 full size as my duty weapon. When I retired, the department gave me that pistol as well as 3 15 round mags full of JHP ammo. I want to purchase a Kel-Tec sub 2K in the .40 caliber S&W magazine version as a compliment to the pistol. I completely understand the limitations of a PCC but for those of us on a budget, this combination is a great option. It can be carried in a small sling pack and used quickly in a SHTF scenario or any defenseive scenario. I would feel quite confident that I could stay on target at reasonable ranges 25-50 yards. With regular practice I'm sure 100 yard shots wouldn't be too difficult to make. If the threat was further away than that then I'd probably have time to get out of the area and or be observant. Last but not least, as others have said, nobody would want to be shot with a pistol round from either a pistol or a PCC, at any distance.
I'm glad all these options exist, and that 3D printing is absolutely exploding. You can have one for every occasion. Also highlights how good MCX Rattler is: bit heavy, but similar dimensions plus superior ballistics and ammo choice.
Love the new gun gripes boys! Pccs' have their purpose, but I live that full send country life. 5.56 or die!
I admire your knowledge, understanding, analysis and logic. Thank you. Best wishes for a happy Christmas and 2023.
I would refer to them as PDWs. And no, they’re not useless. If you’re a security detail or if you’re just looking for personal protection, you can keep a PDW tucked under your coat and then deploy accurate firepower very fast.
@hey it's pete he speaking truth. Security can be trained to react like that
The PCC is great, especially in 10mm.
For an SBR/PDW, I'd have a suppressed 300blk.
Either would suffice for most people, as would a pistol and a shotgun.
PCC's are helpful for urban or more densely populated areas. You want to put holes in the people that need them, but you don't want to put that hole through him or anything else for that matter. It's also going to be a lot quieter than a rifle (saying with like an A2 birdcage on each). I probably won't get serious hearing damage from 9 as opposed to 556.
@@Buck-kf6xq that's the plan. The other things still apply tho. I prefer my PCC for home defense right now till I get a can on my 300 blackout and have it properly tuned. Instead of a can I have a nasty muzzle brake that will deafen me for sure.
I love my Stribog. Great home defense gun.
Besides collection - they are utterly useless. I used to advocate for it, but they didn't exist in bulk at the time. Since the Seals went the MK18 route from the MP5; it's been well documented that PCCs and the PDW category is a fall back and should not be a first choice. The latest influx of PCCs is all marketing. The marketing of 5.7 in PCCs specifically touts more rifle related ballistics. So why would anyone want a
A PCC with pistol ballistics out of a pistol length barrel without full auto - they would not. Consider that you can easily get a 5 to 6 inch pistol with a red dot which gets you accuracy and now you don't have to sling it; you can holster it. If you absolutely need to reach out, a MK 18 or M4 will be compact enough and definately beat out a 9mm pcc which is already replaced by a pistol with a red dot on your hip. 19:10 Military studies have found that the 10.3 MK 18 wounds in CQB are akin to 308 in that range; most would consider this to be the minimum length for 5.56. 16" will serve most people just fine; if you're already considering carrying 6 lbs, carry another 1 or 2 lbs for an M4. With all this being said - if you are a PCC fan; be a PCC fan. We are in a golden age of firearms and we have so many choices that numerous platforms overlap creating redundancies. The important thing is that we welcome new gun owners or 2A enthusiasts as it is a right and it is among the most American things to do - being a responsible gun owner is a big deal! 35:00 - love the "likelihood" discussion as statistically speaking you'll most like have a medical / fire emergency thus having an IFAK near you or some sort of first aid is super important as well as having a fire extinguisher in the house of which probably 99% of the people watching this video probably don't have one.
PMR30 and CMR30 make an interesting combo that go far in a backpack. They are far from ideal from a pumpkin slinging standpoint and some need a little tuning...but they are super lightweight as far as firearms and ammo.
Edit: They both use the same 30 round pistol mags.
Have both and love em, but I wouldn't rely on them with my life though.
... it's been a great channel, gentlemen. And I still find myself reminiscing those early "pawn shop" seasons with your gray-bearded brother 🥲
I don't foresee many issues that a Glock 19 and a sub 2000 can't handle . Both fit in my backpack and take the same mags.They work for taking varmints and petting wounded animals out of their misery as well as self defense.I travel via car and truck alot (700-1000miles most weeks) and there's no telling what I'll run into from Marshal tx and Jackson Ms and all of Louisiana. But that's the heaviest I carry besides my edc sp101 and sig p238 for a speed loader lol. My drago day pack is only so big lol, and the g19 and sub2k fit nicely. Alternately my heavy bag contains a pmr30 and a 10/22 takedown, I don't live in Beruit lol. I keep knives simple , a big cold steel folder and a small hogue otf for opening boxes 😂😂
Thanks for the great content ,y'all please keep it up.