That flex was BRUTAL! why arent you grabbing it from those larger diameter surfaces!? Clamp them both in the same collet, if they arent the same size clamp the thick one!!! That was wild dude..
That was my first rodeo, cowboy!😂😂😂 That said, your comment is a good one! I did not know at the time that the workpiece should be held as close to the area it is being worked as possible. That seems rather obvious now, but as a noobie one tends to think of steel as being rigid, which it is not. Let's talk about turning balance staffs on the lathe. Do you advise turning between centers, and cut the ends of the pivots last, and then finish both pivots holding as close to the center as possible? I have Fried's The Watch Repairer's Manual and the George Daniels book Watchmaking. I haven't reviewed those sections lately but I did get yelled at by an old watchmaker in L'Abbaye on Saturday to turn between centers, but also just to buy a new one because anything one makes is going to be a piece of shit anyway and impossible to fit and get right, etc. (Which I thought was the "joy" of watchmaking, but what do I know?) 😂
@@IMakeWatches if I recorded some of my first tries I'm sure we'd be right in the same place lol As for the pivots, it's been a few years since I've read through Rogers book and I honestly can't tell you off the top of my head the best way to go about it, I'd rather be honest than misleading lol From memory I assume most pivots are too small to run between centres and i wouldn't attempt it. Off the top of my head I would turn down the shafts then as you mentioned try clamp as close as possible or just clamp the leaves of the pinion or whatever is best There are those little jigs that allow you to run between centres and have the pivot stick out (the bearing surface will be the edge of the leaves against the internal cone shape (diagrams are in the book) I've messed around a little with that but it's very touchy, and I not having a watchmakers lathe and trying to use a medium sized bench lathe surely made it much harder to execute I just couldnt get it to work as intended, prob due to the pressures of a large machine just eating the surfaces up too quick and being unable to finely adjust the pressure to get a decent bearing where I can turn the pivot So I just abondoned the whole pivot between centres, I'm a little confused on tolerances needed for mechanical watches because modern machines (kerns) can do within 2 micron machine repeatability, that's fine for any type of modern watch, but what's border line acceptable for a 32-38mm movement (or pocket watch movements) which is what we are more known to play around with? I assume 5 micron machine repeatability would be fine for accurate pocket watches but may also be fine for small modern wristwatches too? Maybe 10 micron machines (repeatability of 0.01mm) will be good enough for modern wrist watches!? Most new decent CNC machines advertise a repeatability of 10 microns, I'd assume 10 microns would be right on the line for jewel placement holes and pivots, I doubt anything more would be acceptable or wouldn't be apparent from the performance but I'm just assuming lol So I'm guessing as long as your collets are high quality and lathe is in good shape (how the manufacturer intended it to be) I highly doubt turning pivots in the Collet will be an issue, I guess you can let us know when you fix a watch with some pivots you made by collet holding and see if there's any drastic differences lol I've been trying to find these answers for some time now because my idea is to make a CNC machine with an epoxy granite base that's very accurate (within 5 micron repeatability) and make watch parts with that! So it can just spit out parts all day and I can do the fit and finishing! To buy a 5 micron machine that's capable is very pricey! I think 25-35k USD I stopped this journey because it just isn't feasible today without CNC machines, we need to make a living lol I can't just make watches in my shed and not worry about money lol I'd end up homeless.. In saying that I hate the idea of machining a pivot last! They are so touchy it's too easy to screw up the last step, I'd rather do them ASAP if possible. By no means am I a watchmaker, I have made a geartrain and barrel (with Geneva wheel delivery system) so please take my advice with a grain of salt lol I think you should scan over the pinion/pivot turning section/s in the watchmaking book to avoid any possible lost time and mistakes that from overlooking the process or possibly taking a stranger's illinformed advice haha Oh and turning between centres will always give you the best concentricity as long as the spindle and tailstock are aligned properly so if possible it's certainly best. Anyways, great channel!! Love it!! All the best in the future! Can't wait for more content!!
Thanks for this incredible comment and I'm sorry it took me so long to respond to it! Comments on comments don't show up as new comments and I sometimes miss them (I have to do a special search in TH-cam studio if I miss them the first time). Anyway, it's funny because I keep running into a watchmaker in Switzerland, first at watch fairs and then just a couple of weeks ago I discovered that he has his own shop just outside the MIH in La Chaux-de-Fonds. Anyway, his name is Louis Vuille (his shop is called Antiquities Horlogeres at Jaquet-Droz 29 in La Chaux-de-Fonds), and every time I see him we end up taking about turning balance staffs between centers. I love all of the theory and numbers in your comment because when you start actually doing this all of that becomes very real, and just reading your comment reminds me of how excited I am to start making new videos about all of this! I also made in the past few weeks a CNC gear cutting index driver, and you're also of course exactly correct that at some point no matter how much you love the old tools, CNC just makes things so much easier and less expensive and higher tolerance that you have to be an extreme purist to not accept it. In the case of my gear indexer, it's not replacing the vintage lathes, it's just replacing the dividing heads. But it's clear to me that for me there will likely be a gradual creep of CNC taking over everything. Which is fine. The reason that I wanted to do it all with old tools was to have a feeling for the material and speeds and tolerances. With CNC (which I also have some experience with on larger work like cameras) you basically don't touch the material, you set it up and then break your endmills and trash your workpieces until you get the speeds and feeds right and never really "feel" what's going on with the actual metal. I love doing things by hand because it gives me a whole different sense of what metal actually is at the scale of watch parts, which is so much softer than the mental image that I had of it. But CNC can also be wildly fast, and regardless of how soft the metal is if you feed it too fast or deep you're going to crash. Anyway, I love your long comment and I'm sure others will appreciate it as well! Thank you again for that!
Hi, i like see you trying to win the fight with your lathe. If i can give you some advice, you should think at first at the material you want to cut. This stem is hardened steel, so you have to cut it with harder material. Try to anneal the stem by heating it on a flame. Or try to use a carbide cutter. Than you have to sharp your graver, i have to see the video you just uploaded... try to set the hand rest in the same direction of the material you have to cut, set it at the height that brings the cutter in the right position when you rest on it. For the tailstock don't hammer it, you have to adjust it by moving the flat side fixed with 2 screws. If you have more material on the right side you moves the tip of the tailstock counterclockwise (looking fro up). Having more material on the left side of the flat part of the clamp of the tailstock moves it clockwise... does it make sense? Thanks for sharing your work!!
Thanks a lot Richard! Those are all super useful comments and I'll try every one of them! I really appreciate the long comment and the details! Have a great weekend!
Thanks! I'm due for some improvement in my skills soon! So far I've been spending all of my time acquiring tools and trying not to injure myself (which by the way is easier with these small tools than with power tools, which is why I chose watchmaking!) 😂😂😂
your excitement is awesome. its something I completely understand !!!! Im the same way !!! I just dont have the filming equipment or experience you have
Post some of your stuff from Facebook over to TH-cam. I can't get on Facebook without signing up and I refuse to do that (so far anyway) because I don't like the CEO (not that I like the CEO of Google or TH-cam either 😂😂😂) In any case filming skills are not necessary for good watchmaking videos. One close-up camera is better in a lot of ways - less distractions. I'm specifically interested in cameras so that's what I do but it doesn't make my watchmaking any better and I blame my slow learning on it as well! 😂
The graver should be resting on the top edge of the steady rest. Looks like you're trying to use it like a chisel. Also, every time you touch the part it pushes back towards the headstock. That's because the spindle is not properly set up. There should be no z-movement.
Tapping is also a bad idea because the lathe will tap it right back out of alignment. Needs to be rigid. Shims are the right way to make the adjustment. That and maybe some Loctite to keep the shims in place.
Tolerances should be better than 1/100 mm = 4 thou, so your lathe should be aligned to 1/2 to 1/4 of that. That said, you can do work between centers even if the alignment is off. Just don't try to use tiny drills or reamers in the tailstock...
@@nathanhays1746 Thanks for this one also! If the person that last adjusted the tailstock screws used loctite on them then I need to use some heat on it to get those screws out. Which I will do! Super helpful once again! I really appreciate it!
Thanks! Yes, I saw that also. I'll be rebuilding the headstock and relubricating it with Mobile Velocite #6 (as per CS Spinner's video about his Boley restoration). I'll do that on a video next week if I can get those tailstock adjustment screws loose in the meantime. 🙏🏼
@@IMakeWatches drill and tap your tailstock. use grub screws to align it. also check your headstock the part with the pulley. make sure its seated properly when you snug it down. yours is a very old design. and well used, but I see ways to adjust it
nice its fun its so much fun !!! boys with there toys .. You scare me with that hammer Dayton lol soak it in lube for a night so the screws come lose... the screws must come lose.. maybe big pot of oil and put it in the ultrasoon ?? just thinking here !
without having any knowledge about this, but having watched many TH-cam videos. Shouldn't you let the workpiece protrude as little as possible so that it is as stable as possible?
Yes! Thanks for pointing that out! Your comment could save me or someone else from losing an eye! I thought that I needed some space for the tool rest and to get access to the area that I wanted to contact with the tip of the graver, but I agree that in retrospect I allowed more than necessary. Clearly minimizing that extra distance is something that should always be done each time the workpiece is set in a collet - because the larger that distance is the more likely the workpiece is to break and lodge itself in neighboring soft tissue!
Like a Subway Valet? 😂😂😂 I love the Security gag. Steven Tyler, etc. Make sure to bring that T-shirt when you come to Switzerland! 😂😂😂 Seriously - I think I'm too old to get "Tudor"ing, but I am into making friends with local watchmakers. I just don't talk about that on the channel as I need to up my game a bit first. Thanks for your comment and for watching!
I know how y feel and definitely am learning - the trail by fire method - but you're in the land of the watch makers / they must be on every corner. Can't wait to see how your stem turns out
@@alltruetv Thanks! Have you found any good shops or flea markets for vintage tools or watches in NYC? Seems like the diamond district is all money and bling.
So, i actually have an esty shop where i sell affordable vintage watches - mostly ladies so I'm always on the hunt in flea markets and such - 47th is not great for tool resell or non-Rolex bling - but I have made a lot of watchmaker friends for stuff i can't do - so now I have engraver guy, a polishing guy, and crystal guy - - so that's been fun - the street has been getting a lot of Instagram hype these days with accounts like watchbyjuls, but it's mostly not my scene@@IMakeWatches
Yes, I think I know how to do that from DeanDK's videos - Arkansas stone and India stone... I was thrilled just to see that they seem to work even before sharpening (the one that's not rusty anyway).
That flex was BRUTAL! why arent you grabbing it from those larger diameter surfaces!? Clamp them both in the same collet, if they arent the same size clamp the thick one!!!
That was wild dude..
That was my first rodeo, cowboy!😂😂😂 That said, your comment is a good one! I did not know at the time that the workpiece should be held as close to the area it is being worked as possible. That seems rather obvious now, but as a noobie one tends to think of steel as being rigid, which it is not.
Let's talk about turning balance staffs on the lathe. Do you advise turning between centers, and cut the ends of the pivots last, and then finish both pivots holding as close to the center as possible? I have Fried's The Watch Repairer's Manual and the George Daniels book Watchmaking. I haven't reviewed those sections lately but I did get yelled at by an old watchmaker in L'Abbaye on Saturday to turn between centers, but also just to buy a new one because anything one makes is going to be a piece of shit anyway and impossible to fit and get right, etc. (Which I thought was the "joy" of watchmaking, but what do I know?) 😂
@@IMakeWatches if I recorded some of my first tries I'm sure we'd be right in the same place lol
As for the pivots, it's been a few years since I've read through Rogers book and I honestly can't tell you off the top of my head the best way to go about it, I'd rather be honest than misleading lol
From memory I assume most pivots are too small to run between centres and i wouldn't attempt it.
Off the top of my head I would turn down the shafts then as you mentioned try clamp as close as possible or just clamp the leaves of the pinion or whatever is best
There are those little jigs that allow you to run between centres and have the pivot stick out (the bearing surface will be the edge of the leaves against the internal cone shape (diagrams are in the book)
I've messed around a little with that but it's very touchy, and I not having a watchmakers lathe and trying to use a medium sized bench lathe surely made it much harder to execute I just couldnt get it to work as intended, prob due to the pressures of a large machine just eating the surfaces up too quick and being unable to finely adjust the pressure to get a decent bearing where I can turn the pivot
So I just abondoned the whole pivot between centres, I'm a little confused on tolerances needed for mechanical watches because modern machines (kerns) can do within 2 micron machine repeatability, that's fine for any type of modern watch, but what's border line acceptable for a 32-38mm movement (or pocket watch movements) which is what we are more known to play around with?
I assume 5 micron machine repeatability would be fine for accurate pocket watches but may also be fine for small modern wristwatches too? Maybe 10 micron machines (repeatability of 0.01mm) will be good enough for modern wrist watches!?
Most new decent CNC machines advertise a repeatability of 10 microns, I'd assume 10 microns would be right on the line for jewel placement holes and pivots, I doubt anything more would be acceptable or wouldn't be apparent from the performance but I'm just assuming lol
So I'm guessing as long as your collets are high quality and lathe is in good shape (how the manufacturer intended it to be) I highly doubt turning pivots in the Collet will be an issue, I guess you can let us know when you fix a watch with some pivots you made by collet holding and see if there's any drastic differences lol
I've been trying to find these answers for some time now because my idea is to make a CNC machine with an epoxy granite base that's very accurate (within 5 micron repeatability) and make watch parts with that! So it can just spit out parts all day and I can do the fit and finishing!
To buy a 5 micron machine that's capable is very pricey! I think 25-35k USD
I stopped this journey because it just isn't feasible today without CNC machines, we need to make a living lol I can't just make watches in my shed and not worry about money lol I'd end up homeless..
In saying that I hate the idea of machining a pivot last! They are so touchy it's too easy to screw up the last step, I'd rather do them ASAP if possible.
By no means am I a watchmaker, I have made a geartrain and barrel (with Geneva wheel delivery system) so please take my advice with a grain of salt lol
I think you should scan over the pinion/pivot turning section/s in the watchmaking book to avoid any possible lost time and mistakes that from overlooking the process or possibly taking a stranger's illinformed advice haha
Oh and turning between centres will always give you the best concentricity as long as the spindle and tailstock are aligned properly so if possible it's certainly best.
Anyways, great channel!! Love it!! All the best in the future! Can't wait for more content!!
Thanks for this incredible comment and I'm sorry it took me so long to respond to it! Comments on comments don't show up as new comments and I sometimes miss them (I have to do a special search in TH-cam studio if I miss them the first time). Anyway, it's funny because I keep running into a watchmaker in Switzerland, first at watch fairs and then just a couple of weeks ago I discovered that he has his own shop just outside the MIH in La Chaux-de-Fonds. Anyway, his name is Louis Vuille (his shop is called Antiquities Horlogeres at Jaquet-Droz 29 in La Chaux-de-Fonds), and every time I see him we end up taking about turning balance staffs between centers. I love all of the theory and numbers in your comment because when you start actually doing this all of that becomes very real, and just reading your comment reminds me of how excited I am to start making new videos about all of this! I also made in the past few weeks a CNC gear cutting index driver, and you're also of course exactly correct that at some point no matter how much you love the old tools, CNC just makes things so much easier and less expensive and higher tolerance that you have to be an extreme purist to not accept it. In the case of my gear indexer, it's not replacing the vintage lathes, it's just replacing the dividing heads. But it's clear to me that for me there will likely be a gradual creep of CNC taking over everything. Which is fine. The reason that I wanted to do it all with old tools was to have a feeling for the material and speeds and tolerances. With CNC (which I also have some experience with on larger work like cameras) you basically don't touch the material, you set it up and then break your endmills and trash your workpieces until you get the speeds and feeds right and never really "feel" what's going on with the actual metal. I love doing things by hand because it gives me a whole different sense of what metal actually is at the scale of watch parts, which is so much softer than the mental image that I had of it. But CNC can also be wildly fast, and regardless of how soft the metal is if you feed it too fast or deep you're going to crash.
Anyway, I love your long comment and I'm sure others will appreciate it as well! Thank you again for that!
Hi, i like see you trying to win the fight with your lathe. If i can give you some advice, you should think at first at the material you want to cut. This stem is hardened steel, so you have to cut it with harder material. Try to anneal the stem by heating it on a flame. Or try to use a carbide cutter. Than you have to sharp your graver, i have to see the video you just uploaded... try to set the hand rest in the same direction of the material you have to cut, set it at the height that brings the cutter in the right position when you rest on it. For the tailstock don't hammer it, you have to adjust it by moving the flat side fixed with 2 screws. If you have more material on the right side you moves the tip of the tailstock counterclockwise (looking fro up). Having more material on the left side of the flat part of the clamp of the tailstock moves it clockwise... does it make sense? Thanks for sharing your work!!
Thanks a lot Richard! Those are all super useful comments and I'll try every one of them! I really appreciate the long comment and the details! Have a great weekend!
Thank you for making this videos, I really enjoy them.
Thanks! I'm due for some improvement in my skills soon! So far I've been spending all of my time acquiring tools and trying not to injure myself (which by the way is easier with these small tools than with power tools, which is why I chose watchmaking!) 😂😂😂
your excitement is awesome.
its something I completely understand !!!!
Im the same way !!!
I just dont have the filming equipment or experience you have
Post some of your stuff from Facebook over to TH-cam. I can't get on Facebook without signing up and I refuse to do that (so far anyway) because I don't like the CEO (not that I like the CEO of Google or TH-cam either 😂😂😂) In any case filming skills are not necessary for good watchmaking videos. One close-up camera is better in a lot of ways - less distractions. I'm specifically interested in cameras so that's what I do but it doesn't make my watchmaking any better and I blame my slow learning on it as well! 😂
@@IMakeWatches Who cares who runs facebook ? come join the dark side !!!!
It's an awesome video. It proves that all the skills needs to be learned and that at the beginning it's not that easy.
Thanks!
The graver should be resting on the top edge of the steady rest. Looks like you're trying to use it like a chisel. Also, every time you touch the part it pushes back towards the headstock. That's because the spindle is not properly set up. There should be no z-movement.
Tapping is also a bad idea because the lathe will tap it right back out of alignment. Needs to be rigid. Shims are the right way to make the adjustment. That and maybe some Loctite to keep the shims in place.
Tolerances should be better than 1/100 mm = 4 thou, so your lathe should be aligned to 1/2 to 1/4 of that. That said, you can do work between centers even if the alignment is off. Just don't try to use tiny drills or reamers in the tailstock...
@@nathanhays1746 Thanks for this one also! If the person that last adjusted the tailstock screws used loctite on them then I need to use some heat on it to get those screws out. Which I will do! Super helpful once again! I really appreciate it!
@@nathanhays1746 1/100 mm is now my target! (insane as that is 😂😂😂). 1/100mm is two to five times thinner than a human hair! I love it!
Thanks! Yes, I saw that also. I'll be rebuilding the headstock and relubricating it with Mobile Velocite #6 (as per CS Spinner's video about his Boley restoration). I'll do that on a video next week if I can get those tailstock adjustment screws loose in the meantime. 🙏🏼
The cutting tool needs to be sharpened on a fine grinding stone, and then sharpen it even more on a fine oil stone.
Thanks! Great advice! That was my first time!
You always want tailstock to be perfectly aligned
Yes, but how? 😂😂😂
@@IMakeWatches drill and tap your tailstock. use grub screws to align it. also check your headstock the part with the pulley. make sure its seated properly when you snug it down. yours is a very old design. and well used, but I see ways to adjust it
nice its fun its so much fun !!! boys with there toys .. You scare me with that hammer Dayton lol soak it in lube for a night so the screws come lose... the screws must come lose.. maybe big pot of oil and put it in the ultrasoon ?? just thinking here !
I will do that! I think you are 100% correct! I just needed an Elder to tell me that in order to stop procrastinating and do it! 😂😂😂
sound advice on soaking. but use penatrint for rusty screws
@@IMakeWatches yepp sometimes you need a elder to tell you ..elder people they know it all ahahahahahahaha
@@sonnymoorehouse1941 you are wright sir
without having any knowledge about this, but having watched many TH-cam videos. Shouldn't you let the workpiece protrude as little as possible so that it is as stable as possible?
Yes! Thanks for pointing that out! Your comment could save me or someone else from losing an eye! I thought that I needed some space for the tool rest and to get access to the area that I wanted to contact with the tip of the graver, but I agree that in retrospect I allowed more than necessary. Clearly minimizing that extra distance is something that should always be done each time the workpiece is set in a collet - because the larger that distance is the more likely the workpiece is to break and lodge itself in neighboring soft tissue!
Maybe u find a local watchmaker to come in and Tudor you ?
Like a Subway Valet? 😂😂😂 I love the Security gag. Steven Tyler, etc. Make sure to bring that T-shirt when you come to Switzerland! 😂😂😂 Seriously - I think I'm too old to get "Tudor"ing, but I am into making friends with local watchmakers. I just don't talk about that on the channel as I need to up my game a bit first. Thanks for your comment and for watching!
I know how y feel and definitely am learning - the trail by fire method - but you're in the land of the watch makers / they must be on every corner. Can't wait to see how your stem turns out
@@alltruetv Thanks! Have you found any good shops or flea markets for vintage tools or watches in NYC? Seems like the diamond district is all money and bling.
So, i actually have an esty shop where i sell affordable vintage watches - mostly ladies so I'm always on the hunt in flea markets and such - 47th is not great for tool resell or non-Rolex bling - but I have made a lot of watchmaker friends for stuff i can't do - so now I have engraver guy, a polishing guy, and crystal guy - - so that's been fun - the street has been getting a lot of Instagram hype these days with accounts like watchbyjuls, but it's mostly not my scene@@IMakeWatches
your gravers need dressing, they are rough
Yes, I think I know how to do that from DeanDK's videos - Arkansas stone and India stone... I was thrilled just to see that they seem to work even before sharpening (the one that's not rusty anyway).
your steady rest needs to be dressed. ground smooth and flat.
Thanks Sonny! That one is easy! I'll do that with the cleaning and restoration that I'm planning!