Hi Dayton- I’m always impressed with your studio set up! I love all the angles. Kudos to diving right in to screw making. It’s so satisfying, isn’t it? I’m glad you have the Martin screw plate. I learned the hard way that some of the modern plates are made of steel that’s just too soft. just some other tips from what ive learned as a beginner- The chattering you heard as turning is due to a combination of the graver being too long and the tool rest being set too far away from the work. If the graver can’t be slid further into the handle, you can try directing the force using your pointer finger as the handle is firmly planted in your palm. The tool post needs to be angled in the same direction as the work. So in your case, parallel to the bed. As you’ve discovered- If you’ve got everything setup correct (speed, graver sharpened, angle of attack, work piece soft enough, etc), you should see spirals/chips of material (swarf) steadily release from the work. I bet you noticed a sweet spot of how to angle and press to get the most effect. I highly recommend lowering the setup so you can plant your elbows to stabilize the graver. It will give you more control and prevent the graver from slipping off. Ensure you’re making contact in the center of the work when viewed from the side. It looks like the graver is cutting from the bottom and the tool post is being used as a fulcrum. That’s why the graver is getting sucked underneath. For that screw plate, I no longer try to measure the stock- instead I just iteratively turn it down until the work snugly slides into the next hole larger than the one you want to cut with. For smaller screws, look for a “screw head slotting file”. They come in various sizes. Finally, look up graver types. I think the one you were using is for “engraving”, which is a little different of an application. You can find carbide graver blanks on eBay that you can shape in the diamond pattern that DeanDK demonstrates in his videos. Best of luck to you and congratulations on successfully creating your first screw, and thanks for taking us with you on the journey!
Thanks Chris! Yes, the camera set-up on this second bench is something that I've been working on for a year. I jokingly called it Magnum (Zoolander reference) because it was never even close to being ready - until now! (Still needs some tweaking actually). Thanks for all the tips! Correct gravers are on the way and I think I'll do much better on the next try. I thought it would be interesting to get this first try on video even if I do look stupid (not sure why I wrote "if" 😂) because that's a fear that anyone thinking about doing this needs to confront. Thanks for your detailed advice and yes, making tiny non-standard vintage replacement parts that are unique and that you could never find a source for in a million years is very satisfying! The part may not seem to have much value to an outside observer, but the watch or tool that it brings back to life certainly does! Thanks again for all of your inspiring videos!
I watch these videos to learn and relax. This one was kinda like going to the dentist. From my experience, when using a die (screw plate or whatever) make a brass "backer" that goes in the tail stock and is faced flat, slide the tail stock up to the screw plate to hold it flat. Put a bit of duct tape to protect the bed for the plate to rest on without gouging it up... and use the tail stock unclamped to press the plate to the work. With the work fully annealed, cooled in a cup of ash, the shaft should be Just the right diameter leaving sharp threads but no more. Having a cross slide would make your work much easier (and the tool makers much richer) but the tool post/graver method is elegant, artistic and so satisfying after making such a beautiful part. Make a jig to hold the graver when sharpening it, and use a diamond sharpening plate to dress your stone as a groove will quickly form on the stone. I keep a notebook handy when attending church or visiting relatives or watching youtube to store ideas to try next. Don't forget to temper the work after hardening. As Honda said, "To succeed in life you have to fail a lot!" Great work
Thanks Greg! I've made most of those improvements already. They'll start showing up in other videos. But thanks for the comment because all of these comments can help keep others from just repeating my mistakes.
Beautiful work, terrific seeing you make your first part. With the tool rest parallel to the work piece it is easier to traverse the length to turn a constant diameter, also helps support the tool close to the part.
hi I fell on to your channel by chance, i have sub'd and bell'd you for future viewing i take my hat off to you for giving turning on the lathe a go with no experience, I don't use watchmakers lathes but use bigger lathes for my steam projects. Cutting metal successfully on any kind of machine is all down to the correct tool angles /geometry etc and having the tool on centre height and the correct approach angle and ridgity. Once you have conquered the correct tool geometry, you will find things much easier and quicker. all the best👍👍 regards Kev(UK)
Thanks Kev! I really appreciate your comment! I'm purposely embarrassing myself in hopes that I might encourage others to challenge themselves with hobbies (or professions) that they may not know that they'll enjoy until they give it a try!
Thank you very much! I hope to eventually get good at this but for now this is my reality. Check out my links to other channels for videos about how to do these things the right way! 😂😂😂
I'm watching all your videos. They are great, because they show the common problems we'll face while facing the lathe as newbies. Thanks for your work and info
Very good. As you hoped, I found it both educational and inspiring to see someone making all the mistakes that you need to make when learning. It is also nice to see a seasoned professional turn out splendid pieces with apparent ease but they are also daunting. I like the adage 'A man who never made a mistake never made anything'
I have very limited experience when it comes to turning on watchmakers laths, still here are some things I noticed: You have to careful about the tool height when turning. To me it looked like you sometimes had the tool ( cutting edge) below the workpiece, not on or even slightly the center line. This can cause rubbing and prevent you from efficiently cutting metal. The word graver can have slightly different meanings. It can refer to the tool used on a watchmaker lathe or the tool used for hand engraving (either with hammer and chisel/graver or hand push engraving). In all cases the graver is a hard and sharp piece of metal used to cut metal, but the exact geometry differs from application to application. That Vallorbe graver you bought looks like a hand engraver to me. Other than that I hope that you continue to enjoy your lathe. Messing around and cutting shapes into metal by hand is just a lot of fun. Especially in brass, as everything is shiny and gold and so much easier to work then steel.
Thanks @DeDeNoM! My goal is to make hardened steel balance staffs for ladies movements ASAP. I don't have time to mess around with brass! 😂😂😂 I'm kind of joking, kind of not joking - I still have my IWC Cal 44 balance staff replacement to do and I broke one of the three new balance staffs I bought for it already. I'm really curious how it feels getting down into that much smaller world than this screw.
@@IMakeWatches You’re off to a good start. Ok, ok, you’re off to a start. lol The geometry of the tip of your graver is the important part when cutting metal on a lathe, along with having the cutting edge of your tool at the right height (usually on the centerline of the spinning part). I highly recommend that you check out some of the videos from a TH-camr called ThisOldTony. He has a great way of explaining things in a way that makes it all make sense and is easy to understand (plus he’s funny as hell, in a weird sort of way). While he’s not about watchmaking, and his machines are much larger than a watchmaker’s lathe, many of the concepts are transferable. Another very good channel to check out for info on working with small lathes and different types of metal preparation before and after working them is Clickspring, and a third would be Blondihacks. As the above poster mentioned, you want to be supporting the graver much closer to the workpiece. You shouldn’t need to put much pressure on the tool, the cutting edge should be doing all of the work. And for god’s sakes, any time you are loosening or tightening your tool post, SET THE GRAVER DOWN!! One slip with that thing, and it’ll slice you a new one! Also, you shouldn’t need to put much pressure on the screw plate to get your threads started. Put a slight chamfer on the end of the screw to help get the threads started. The good news here is that you’ve successfully cut your first screw! A *BIG* congratulations is in order for that! It was truly cringeworthy to watch, but in the end you wound up with a useable screw and didn’t get blood all over the place, so that can be considered a win! What you said at the end was correct: each one you do from here on will be better than the last. Keep up the good work!
I don’t know if it will let me paste a link, but the specific ThisOldTony video that I was thinking of is th-cam.com/video/__A2xtLF0AU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=naZ1eR21v4h9LakL If I remember correctly from that video, there are some very helpful graphics included that show the relationship between the cutting geometry and the workpiece, and how they affect the way the metal cuts.
Lots of good advice here so have fun with your new hobby. But give the surface finish on the toolrest for graver work more attention. It's quite important.
Thanks very much! I did file the tool rest down to an even smooth surface and got proper watchmaker's gravers so I'm hoping that the next video with the lathe will be much better.
I was wondering why this looked so awkward ! This is a beginner video. Still fun to watch…its almost a parody ;-) we all have to start somewhere. Good jod
Thanks Patrick! I really appreciate this comment. I have had many successes in my life and they all started out like this. I will also succeed at watchmaking. This is what success at anything looks like at the beginning. Some people seem to worry that by making mistakes on camera I'm teaching others to do the same. I guess that's a risk for the way that many of us consume media in short samples. I appreciate it that you took the time to look at the context.
Thanks a lot! I think you may be using the word "inspire" inversely but I nevertheless accept the compliment! There's a tension between video taping and patience that involves editing that I have yet to master! 😂😂😂
With how shiny the screw was when cutting I'd say the tool was too dull and rubbing. This could lead to work hardening the material thereby making it more difficult to cut. Look at metal cutting lathe bits for an example. A good honed cutting edge with proper relief should work. HSS is plenty good enough for the tool bits. More forgiving to chipping and easier to resharpen. Good luck.
Thanks for this comment, James! There was definitely an inordinate amount of rubbing going on and I didn't think about work hardening resulting from that. Thanks for mentioning it! I did order some new Vallorbe watchmaking gravers -- in both HSS and whatever the normal material is - and I'll be taking another stab at it (no pun intended) as soon as I receive them.
Fantastic video. This really hits close to home for me as I am piecing together a lathe as well. I really appreciate the info from your description on the motor. I've been trying to find a suitable option for mine. That info really helps me out a bunch. Great job making your first screw. I hope to be following in your footsteps and learning to use my lathe soon. Cheers!
Often the small diameter rod slips in the chuck when cutting threads. The way to avoid this is use larger rod stock, say 5mm or 6mm, and turn it down to the screw size you need. Avoid cutting threads on turned stock that is oversized.
I would stick with the smaller stock and just take it slow with the screw plate. Turning 5 or 6mm steel stock down to 3 or 4mm has its costs as well: time, cost, wear and tear on the tools and cleanup.
Do all watchmakers lathes use the manual tool rest style of turning versus having a fixed cutting tool (tool post) and longitudinal and cross feeds like on their bigger brothers/full size metal lathes?? What you show with the watchmaker’s lathe is in essense how a wood lathe operates in that the cutting tool is positioned by hand. Very interesting! 👍🏻. I’ll have to check out some more of your videos !
Thanks for asking this question. No, they definitely also use cross slides and tool posts as well for a lot of watchmaking lathe work. I just don't have one yet.
I make a lot of screws using the graver to get the shaft of the screw square put the tool rest square to the stock then you will find the graver cuts better and the tool rest can be a guide as well
Thanks! That's good advice! I'm getting better as a result of all the great comments I'm getting! Hopefully they also help others who may be watching my videos and trying to learn as well.
*I know zero about watchmakers lathe work but quite a bit about normal metal lathe work. To me it seems you'd do alot better with a tool holder rather than a hand held cutter.* Tool height and center line are crucial down to ridiculous levels on a normal metal lathe, I'm sure they also apply to WM lathes. It's hard to tell from me viewing the screen, but RPMs are crucial as well. You can't be in a hurry either! 🙂
Thanks for this comment! Yeah, I would love to have a cross slide now! Also I do realizes (but it doesn't hurt to reiterate) that the RPMs, especially on very tiny diameters, are important. My motor does go up to 5000 RPM, and I can use the belt and pulleys to bring that number up even higher. I'm really excited to get back to the winding stem and then eventually balance staffs. It's insane how small the pivots on balance staffs are and that they were once (and sometimes still are) made by hand! Anyway, comments like yours are very helpful and I really appreciate it that you took the time to comment!
@@IMakeWatches 5000 is probably too slow when using HSS on very small diameters (under 1mm), BUT, what type of bearings does the lathe have. If it's bronze bushings, very high rpm may cause it to overheat and seize. I've only used a watchmakers lathe once, it was 'newer' with a cross slide (around 1990) Had heck of a job keeping belt from slipping, I was using it for something other than intended purpose cutting much larger diameter aluminium
@@1crazypj Thanks for this comment! I'll be disassembling and relubricating the cone bearing soon (was afraid of damaging it on my first attempt). I assume it's all stainless steel but we'll see! I also have a vintage countershaft that I picked up for $100 that can at least double the RPMs if necessary. Very excited about trying to turn sub-millimeter diameters under the microscope!
@@IMakeWatches That stereo microscope looks real great but a bit expensive? It's very rare I've made anything sub millimeter, although I used to make jets with 0.30mm holes in brass, 8mm down a 1.20mm clearance hole. I've more or less given up machining (and a lot of other things) since my eyesight started getting worse, I use x7 or x10 loupe's to read micrometers nowadays and switched to dial calipers (still need x2 loupe for that)
@@1crazypj The microscope was between US$ 300 and $500 depending on the accessories (from Eakins in China via Aliexpress). Seems like a bargain to me considering a Sony point-and-shoot camera is US$1,000! There's an affiliate link in the video description near the bottom if you want to take a look at the current price with shipping for the same one I have and choose whichever accessories you'd like.
Yes! I learned me lesson on this one! The difficult thing was coming up with a good solution for sharpening. I now have a larger lathe with diamond plate grinding wheels (as well as regular grinding wheels) that make sharpening fast and easy. Just have to not go so fast that the graver gets too hot and loses its temper.
Thanks again for your comments and advice, Sonny! Diamond sharpening plates and a tool holder for sharpening are forthcoming but in the meantime I upgraded my graver purchasing process! Factory new Glardon Vallorbe LO 0501 and LO 0502 gravers are on the way. These are the two gravers that Vallorbe makes for watchmaking: diamond tip or square tip - made in sizes ranging from 1.5mm to 5mm in either hardened steel or high speed steel. I felt it was important to compare anything I sharpen with new gravers as a benchmark. I also picked up a meter of 3mm brass rod to practice with. For anyone that hasn't read the other comments, the new Glardon Vallorbe knife-style graver that I used in this video is made for hand engraving, not for the watchmaker's lathe. I'm excited to try again on much smaller parts with sharp, correct gravers!
Thanks for this comment but I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying something like a poor-man's cross slide? That sounds very interesting but how do you make it strong and adjustable? Eventually I'll have to get a cross slide, it just may take a while watching auctions.
Yeah a slider with a lathe bit attachment. You could look at one and recreate a small one for yourself at a hardware store. You might find a lathe bit attachment on a Chinese website or make a primitive one your self. I watched one on TH-cam, but didn't save the link to remember where to see it again.🧩🧩
Yeah, cool! I also looked on Aliexpress for a cheap cross slide and some way to attach it. It would be a lot easier with an American-style lathe because the top of the bar instead of the side is flat on an American-style watchmaker's lathe. Anyway, I'll be watching the auctions in and vintage dealers in Switzerland and will eventually find one! Meanwhile it's also fun to practice and learn to hand-hold the gravers. I bought some 3mm brass rod yesterday to practice on.
next time you should stick with silversteel instead this gummy stainless steel material ! , sometimes files ( there are files made for use on a lathe ) give you better results when doing the finishing
@@IMakeWatches you realy need files suitable for work on the lathe ! normal watchmaking files will clogg up and dull quickly ! also your filerest on the lathe could be a bit higher ! leanr how to grind propper tool geomtry ! it hurts to watch your video :)
Thanks! I subbed your channel and will see what I can glean from it. Are you in Austria? Let me know if you're ever in Geneva! I'd love to have you stop by and make a video together!
@@IMakeWatches Hy , sory for my late reply, MY channel is poorly maintained. i do most of my postings on Facebook, or in a german metal foruzm called Zerspanungsbude or in the Model engineering forum ( model engine maker ) . unfortunatley i am in vienna and far away from Geneva !"
Thanks! Yes, I can buy the real things here in Switzerland for a few bucks! I kind of knew that the engraver's handle was wrong but bought that anyway thinking that the flat side was how you felt the angle. It makes more sense to use a longer cylindrical handle since the watchmaker's gravers are square, your eyes need to be on the tip anyway, and attack angle is more important that rotation. Thanks again for this comment!
I saw one other video from you, your lathe needs some adjustments and has a lot of axial play. ""Making a Stem" 😂 for a Patek Philippe 16-250 with my New Lathe"
Yes, thanks! Other viewers informed me of that and I tightened it up in the subsequent video in which I lubricated it and tightened the cone bearing without completely disassembling the bearing. I will completely disassemble clean and relubricate it in a follow-up video. I didn't want to break it so I waited for user comments and found some detailed videos about disassembly / reassembly. In any case thank you for this comment! The comments on many of my videos are at least as important as the videos because my mistakes and user comments reveal details that otherwise are seldom discussed in TH-cam videos and even more rarely shown visually.
Hi Dayton, thanks fot the video. Where did you source the magnifying glasses you are wearing? How strong is the magnification? I am wearing glasses like you and I haven't yet found any decent one.
I got them at bijutil.ch (they have a shop in Geneva) for 11 Chf (about 13 USD). But I should warn you that the shop recommended against them as they are very fragile, and I've only used them very lightly because of that. Next week when I'm back in my studio I'll check the brand and update you with that so you can see if you can source them wherever you are. www.bijoutil.ch/en/watchmaker/tools-machines/magnifier-microscopes/2086/binocular-watchmakermagnifier-ligh-3-interchangeable-lenses?c=358
@@fabriziovirdone7228 Sorry, I was reviewing comments just now and realized I forgot to check the brand and get back to you. Will do that later today! One thing I realized is that with the lathe and my level of experience (zero), it's probably better to use an Optivisor for better eye protection. But those lightweight over-the-glasses magnifiers are nice for safer work. In any case I'll let you know the brand a bit later today.
Hi Fabrizio, those glasses don't even have a brand name but if you google magnifier+with+LED+lamp+9157-3 that should pull up some links for you! (9157-3 is the "product number")
@@IMakeWatches Thank you. I guess it is a chinese brand. I have seen few like them on Aliexpress. I wanted to check with yours if they were a clone of some occidental quality brand. Thanks again
Thanks for this question AllTrue! Yes, in theory you can (and in fact must) sharpen them, but I need more practice, and graver holder for sharpening, and a diamond encrusted sharpening plate (which I've ordered). I'll do an update with specifics about the tools when I'm able to do it correctly.
That's a good question! The material was coming over the top towards me and then down onto the tip of the graver. That's correct, right? I could see that sometimes in the video it looks like it's going the other direction but I think that's just a video thing like the wheels appearing to rotate backwards on a car.
Great! That is the correct rotation. I almost didn’t comment because I thought it might be an artifact of video production. The tool rest is different from full size metal lathes and more like that in wood lathes. Full size lathes have a rigid fixed tool holder. But you made a mighty small screw with your equipment! Great job!
Your graver ground angles are wrong. It looked like the front clearance angle was zero ( square to top of cutter). I use an engine lathe with HSS cutter. Front clearance 7-8 degrees, with a positive rake about 12 degrees for annealed silver steel. Today I cut a pin .016” diameter from .125” stock in a single pass, (remember to pull tool back before returning to the right or the pin climbs the tool) then polished to .015” with 400 grit paper then with 1200 grit. If you cut brass top rake is zero, and you can reduce front clearance, ( but I don’t). 38:30
Thanks! I have now learned how to sharpen gravers properly enough to cut my fingers on them regularly and I've been studying rake angles. It's great to have this detailed comment and encouragement! Onward!
@@johnhinkey5336 I applied it generously to the tip of the workpiece not the plate. But in any case using tapping oil is still good advice (and a must as I understand it) for anyone reading the comments. I should have applied it to both the workpiece and the plate. Next time I will!
It's even more painful to do! Especially when you stab your hand with a centering punch or get slapped in the face with a broken belt! 😂😂😂 th-cam.com/users/shortslBdNZJfBGg4?feature=share
Thanks for the engagement comment! It's also fun for me to engage with viewers so feel free to comment any time! Yeah, about safety, I think (and hope) it's all in good fun! I like to joke about getting hurt while also taking safety seriously. I briefly worked with Mark Pauline of Survival Research Labs in New York in the 1980s who lost four of his fingers messing around with rockets and had toes grafted on in place of his fingers (not sure if they were his toes or someone else's). I also worked on a project in Nice on which a rack of 100 Martin follow spots 40 feet high on scaffolding with metal wheels rolled over a crew members foot and turned it into a smoothie. One of the reasons I chose to learn watchmaking at this advanced age is to not have to worry about blowing myself up, losing digits or limbs or falling to my death. Nevertheless, safety should always come first, even in watchmaking! 😂😂😂
Nice video about watchmaker lathe turning. Have you ever watched ClickSpring channel? I think he have a full series about tools and using one of those lathes.
Bonjour de France je suis vos réparations de montre régulièrement je regarde le tournage sur tour et je crois que votre outillage est mal adapté utilisé et surtout vous ne maîtrisez pas l’affutage de vos outils et vous pourriez vous blaisser car tourner le métal doit se faire en douceur et avec un lubrifiant la hauteur de coupe de l’outil doit doit être a zéro et perpendiculaire à la pièce ce n’est pas du grattage revoyez les bases de l’art du tourneur bonne continuation😅❤❤❤ Gilles
Merci Gilles! J'ai trouvé intéressant de faire des vidéos "pour la première fois" pour montrer aux spectateurs ce qui est possible sans expérience ni formation. Grâce aux commentaires de téléspectateurs comme vous et à des recherches et pratiques supplémentaires, je vais beaucoup mieux ! Continuez à regarder pour voir mes améliorations !
OMG, you're so right! I should know that but I only have a fille. She's going to be deeply embarrassed if she ever watches this video since she's been trying to teach me French since she was a baby! 😂😂😂
@@IMakeWatches nothing to be embarrassed about, its very normal to make mistakes. :) very interesting video.. I am still in the middle of watching it. Bonne chance avec le Francais, ce n'est pas facile a apprendre. :)
@@jonathanforget8988 Yeah, I've only lived in Geneva for 25 years. Maybe if I decide to settle down here I'll try to learn the language! 😂😂😂 I was at the lake with my daughter before she could even walk, so when she was around one year old, and I said, "Regarde l'oiseau, Mila !" and she snapped back at me (in English): "Actually, that's a DUCK, Dad!" I will remember that forever because she used the word "actually" and then I had to carry her back to the house after being shamed like that because she was literally still too young to walk. Anyway, that totally shamed me and I've never recovered! I still have no idea how to say "actually" in French. I think I usually say "actualment" because that sounds French to me but I just googled that and it means "currently". I did finally stop calling my wife mon mari however, after a friend told me that he didn't know that I was gay! 😂😂😂
@@IMakeWatches that's hilarious. I mean you weren't technically wrong, a duck is a bird :P I would probably translate Actually to 'En Fait' . I had a good laugh at your explanation of the feeling of metal splinters in a finger. Lol I've had many of those and sometime you only realize you have one a couple days later .. good times. keep on learnin!
Was für ein Blödsinn! Ich habe jetzt 12min gesehen. Länger halte ich es nicht aus. Du kannst nicht drehen! Aber ganz wichtig ist, dass man dass mit 3 Kamerapositionen dokumentiert.
Danke! Es macht viel Spaß, das Uhrmacherhandwerk zu erlernen und diese Erfahrung zu teilen! Wenn man beide Bänke mit einbezieht, sind es tatsächlich 14 Kamerapositionen. 😂😂😂
Hi Dayton- I’m always impressed with your studio set up! I love all the angles. Kudos to diving right in to screw making. It’s so satisfying, isn’t it? I’m glad you have the Martin screw plate. I learned the hard way that some of the modern plates are made of steel that’s just too soft. just some other tips from what ive learned as a beginner- The chattering you heard as turning is due to a combination of the graver being too long and the tool rest being set too far away from the work. If the graver can’t be slid further into the handle, you can try directing the force using your pointer finger as the handle is firmly planted in your palm. The tool post needs to be angled in the same direction as the work. So in your case, parallel to the bed. As you’ve discovered- If you’ve got everything setup correct (speed, graver sharpened, angle of attack, work piece soft enough, etc), you should see spirals/chips of material (swarf) steadily release from the work. I bet you noticed a sweet spot of how to angle and press to get the most effect. I highly recommend lowering the setup so you can plant your elbows to stabilize the graver. It will give you more control and prevent the graver from slipping off. Ensure you’re making contact in the center of the work when viewed from the side. It looks like the graver is cutting from the bottom and the tool post is being used as a fulcrum. That’s why the graver is getting sucked underneath. For that screw plate, I no longer try to measure the stock- instead I just iteratively turn it down until the work snugly slides into the next hole larger than the one you want to cut with. For smaller screws, look for a “screw head slotting file”. They come in various sizes. Finally, look up graver types. I think the one you were using is for “engraving”, which is a little different of an application. You can find carbide graver blanks on eBay that you can shape in the diamond pattern that DeanDK demonstrates in his videos. Best of luck to you and congratulations on successfully creating your first screw, and thanks for taking us with you on the journey!
Thanks Chris! Yes, the camera set-up on this second bench is something that I've been working on for a year. I jokingly called it Magnum (Zoolander reference) because it was never even close to being ready - until now! (Still needs some tweaking actually). Thanks for all the tips! Correct gravers are on the way and I think I'll do much better on the next try. I thought it would be interesting to get this first try on video even if I do look stupid (not sure why I wrote "if" 😂) because that's a fear that anyone thinking about doing this needs to confront. Thanks for your detailed advice and yes, making tiny non-standard vintage replacement parts that are unique and that you could never find a source for in a million years is very satisfying! The part may not seem to have much value to an outside observer, but the watch or tool that it brings back to life certainly does! Thanks again for all of your inspiring videos!
I watch these videos to learn and relax. This one was kinda like going to the dentist. From my experience, when using a die (screw plate or whatever) make a brass "backer" that goes in the tail stock and is faced flat, slide the tail stock up to the screw plate to hold it flat. Put a bit of duct tape to protect the bed for the plate to rest on without gouging it up... and use the tail stock unclamped to press the plate to the work. With the work fully annealed, cooled in a cup of ash, the shaft should be Just the right diameter leaving sharp threads but no more. Having a cross slide would make your work much easier (and the tool makers much richer) but the tool post/graver method is elegant, artistic and so satisfying after making such a beautiful part. Make a jig to hold the graver when sharpening it, and use a diamond sharpening plate to dress your stone as a groove will quickly form on the stone. I keep a notebook handy when attending church or visiting relatives or watching youtube to store ideas to try next. Don't forget to temper the work after hardening. As Honda said, "To succeed in life you have to fail a lot!" Great work
Thanks Greg! I've made most of those improvements already. They'll start showing up in other videos. But thanks for the comment because all of these comments can help keep others from just repeating my mistakes.
Beautiful work, terrific seeing you make your first part.
With the tool rest parallel to the work piece it is easier to traverse the length to turn a constant diameter, also helps support the tool close to the part.
Thanks! That makes sense! I'll work on my technique now that I have tools that seem to work! I really appreciate the advice!
hi
I fell on to your channel by chance, i have sub'd and bell'd you for future viewing
i take my hat off to you for giving turning on the lathe a go with no experience, I don't use watchmakers lathes but use bigger lathes for my steam projects. Cutting metal successfully on any kind of machine is all down to the correct tool angles /geometry etc and having the tool on centre height and the correct approach angle and ridgity. Once you have conquered the correct tool geometry, you will find things much easier and quicker.
all the best👍👍
regards
Kev(UK)
Thanks Kev! I really appreciate your comment! I'm purposely embarrassing myself in hopes that I might encourage others to challenge themselves with hobbies (or professions) that they may not know that they'll enjoy until they give it a try!
Thank you for making these awesome videos. Your humble approach to tackling difficult jobs is both inspirational and admirable. Appreciate your work.
Thank you very much! I hope to eventually get good at this but for now this is my reality. Check out my links to other channels for videos about how to do these things the right way! 😂😂😂
I'm watching all your videos. They are great, because they show the common problems we'll face while facing the lathe as newbies. Thanks for your work and info
Thanks for watching and thanks for this comment!
Geat video! As a budding watchmaker myself it's good to see the challenges as well as the final success. Thanks for keeping it real!
Very good. As you hoped, I found it both educational and inspiring to see someone making all the mistakes that you need to make when learning. It is also nice to see a seasoned professional turn out splendid pieces with apparent ease but they are also daunting.
I like the adage 'A man who never made a mistake never made anything'
Thanks for this comment and your understanding!
That is some precision work
Yes, super fun as well!
I have very limited experience when it comes to turning on watchmakers laths, still here are some things I noticed:
You have to careful about the tool height when turning. To me it looked like you sometimes had the tool ( cutting edge) below the workpiece, not on or even slightly the center line. This can cause rubbing and prevent you from efficiently cutting metal.
The word graver can have slightly different meanings. It can refer to the tool used on a watchmaker lathe or the tool used for hand engraving (either with hammer and chisel/graver or hand push engraving). In all cases the graver is a hard and sharp piece of metal used to cut metal, but the exact geometry differs from application to application. That Vallorbe graver you bought looks like a hand engraver to me.
Other than that I hope that you continue to enjoy your lathe. Messing around and cutting shapes into metal by hand is just a lot of fun. Especially in brass, as everything is shiny and gold and so much easier to work then steel.
Thanks @DeDeNoM! My goal is to make hardened steel balance staffs for ladies movements ASAP. I don't have time to mess around with brass! 😂😂😂 I'm kind of joking, kind of not joking - I still have my IWC Cal 44 balance staff replacement to do and I broke one of the three new balance staffs I bought for it already. I'm really curious how it feels getting down into that much smaller world than this screw.
@@IMakeWatches
You’re off to a good start. Ok, ok, you’re off to a start. lol
The geometry of the tip of your graver is the important part when cutting metal on a lathe, along with having the cutting edge of your tool at the right height (usually on the centerline of the spinning part). I highly recommend that you check out some of the videos from a TH-camr called ThisOldTony. He has a great way of explaining things in a way that makes it all make sense and is easy to understand (plus he’s funny as hell, in a weird sort of way). While he’s not about watchmaking, and his machines are much larger than a watchmaker’s lathe, many of the concepts are transferable. Another very good channel to check out for info on working with small lathes and different types of metal preparation before and after working them is Clickspring, and a third would be Blondihacks.
As the above poster mentioned, you want to be supporting the graver much closer to the workpiece. You shouldn’t need to put much pressure on the tool, the cutting edge should be doing all of the work. And for god’s sakes, any time you are loosening or tightening your tool post, SET THE GRAVER DOWN!! One slip with that thing, and it’ll slice you a new one!
Also, you shouldn’t need to put much pressure on the screw plate to get your threads started. Put a slight chamfer on the end of the screw to help get the threads started.
The good news here is that you’ve successfully cut your first screw! A *BIG* congratulations is in order for that! It was truly cringeworthy to watch, but in the end you wound up with a useable screw and didn’t get blood all over the place, so that can be considered a win! What you said at the end was correct: each one you do from here on will be better than the last. Keep up the good work!
I don’t know if it will let me paste a link, but the specific ThisOldTony video that I was thinking of is
th-cam.com/video/__A2xtLF0AU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=naZ1eR21v4h9LakL
If I remember correctly from that video, there are some very helpful graphics included that show the relationship between the cutting geometry and the workpiece, and how they affect the way the metal cuts.
Lots of good advice here so have fun with your new hobby.
But give the surface finish on the toolrest for graver work more attention. It's quite important.
Thanks very much! I did file the tool rest down to an even smooth surface and got proper watchmaker's gravers so I'm hoping that the next video with the lathe will be much better.
Thank you for the video, always a pleasure to watch.
Thank you again my friend!
thnks Dayton nice one like to see you play and have fun thats the most important thing !
Thanks Elder! Now I need a cross slide!
@@IMakeWatches its like dancing try before you die
🕺💃🏼
I was wondering why this looked so awkward ! This is a beginner video. Still fun to watch…its almost a parody ;-) we all have to start somewhere. Good jod
Thanks Patrick! I really appreciate this comment. I have had many successes in my life and they all started out like this. I will also succeed at watchmaking. This is what success at anything looks like at the beginning. Some people seem to worry that by making mistakes on camera I'm teaching others to do the same. I guess that's a risk for the way that many of us consume media in short samples. I appreciate it that you took the time to look at the context.
Real glad I found your channel. You inspire me to be patient. Thanks.
Thanks a lot! I think you may be using the word "inspire" inversely but I nevertheless accept the compliment! There's a tension between video taping and patience that involves editing that I have yet to master! 😂😂😂
With how shiny the screw was when cutting I'd say the tool was too dull and rubbing. This could lead to work hardening the material thereby making it more difficult to cut.
Look at metal cutting lathe bits for an example. A good honed cutting edge with proper relief should work. HSS is plenty good enough for the tool bits. More forgiving to chipping and easier to resharpen. Good luck.
Thanks for this comment, James! There was definitely an inordinate amount of rubbing going on and I didn't think about work hardening resulting from that. Thanks for mentioning it! I did order some new Vallorbe watchmaking gravers -- in both HSS and whatever the normal material is - and I'll be taking another stab at it (no pun intended) as soon as I receive them.
Cool. Glad you showed the struggle, because for me it is very real. A magnetic parts tray might work to catch the tiny swarf.
Thanks Mike!
Great project to learn about using a watchmaker's lathe!
Thanks! Yes, now back to the winding stem! 😂😂😂
Fantastic video. This really hits close to home for me as I am piecing together a lathe as well. I really appreciate the info from your description on the motor. I've been trying to find a suitable option for mine. That info really helps me out a bunch. Great job making your first screw. I hope to be following in your footsteps and learning to use my lathe soon. Cheers!
you are on the goodway doing some nice things .. i am watching you
Thanks Adam! I can't wait to see what you get up to with yours!
Often the small diameter rod slips in the chuck when cutting threads. The way to avoid this is use larger rod stock, say 5mm or 6mm, and turn it down to the screw size you need. Avoid cutting threads on turned stock that is oversized.
I would stick with the smaller stock and just take it slow with the screw plate. Turning 5 or 6mm steel stock down to 3 or 4mm has its costs as well: time, cost, wear and tear on the tools and cleanup.
Also suggest you buy George Daniels book in Watchmaking
Agree 100%! I've been studying it and I recommend it on my website as well. imakewatches.com/shop.html
Do all watchmakers lathes use the manual tool rest style of turning versus having a fixed cutting tool (tool post) and longitudinal and cross feeds like on their bigger brothers/full size metal lathes?? What you show with the watchmaker’s lathe is in essense how a wood lathe operates in that the cutting tool is positioned by hand. Very interesting! 👍🏻. I’ll have to check out some more of your videos !
Thanks for asking this question. No, they definitely also use cross slides and tool posts as well for a lot of watchmaking lathe work. I just don't have one yet.
I make a lot of screws using the graver to get the shaft of the screw square put the tool rest square to the stock then you will find the graver cuts better and the tool rest can be a guide as well
Thanks! That's good advice! I'm getting better as a result of all the great comments I'm getting! Hopefully they also help others who may be watching my videos and trying to learn as well.
*I know zero about watchmakers lathe work but quite a bit about normal metal lathe work. To me it seems you'd do alot better with a tool holder rather than a hand held cutter.*
Tool height and center line are crucial down to ridiculous levels on a normal metal lathe, I'm sure they also apply to WM lathes.
It's hard to tell from me viewing the screen, but RPMs are crucial as well.
You can't be in a hurry either! 🙂
Thanks for this comment! Yeah, I would love to have a cross slide now! Also I do realizes (but it doesn't hurt to reiterate) that the RPMs, especially on very tiny diameters, are important. My motor does go up to 5000 RPM, and I can use the belt and pulleys to bring that number up even higher. I'm really excited to get back to the winding stem and then eventually balance staffs. It's insane how small the pivots on balance staffs are and that they were once (and sometimes still are) made by hand! Anyway, comments like yours are very helpful and I really appreciate it that you took the time to comment!
@@IMakeWatches 5000 is probably too slow when using HSS on very small diameters (under 1mm), BUT, what type of bearings does the lathe have.
If it's bronze bushings, very high rpm may cause it to overheat and seize.
I've only used a watchmakers lathe once, it was 'newer' with a cross slide (around 1990)
Had heck of a job keeping belt from slipping, I was using it for something other than intended purpose cutting much larger diameter aluminium
@@1crazypj Thanks for this comment! I'll be disassembling and relubricating the cone bearing soon (was afraid of damaging it on my first attempt). I assume it's all stainless steel but we'll see! I also have a vintage countershaft that I picked up for $100 that can at least double the RPMs if necessary. Very excited about trying to turn sub-millimeter diameters under the microscope!
@@IMakeWatches That stereo microscope looks real great but a bit expensive?
It's very rare I've made anything sub millimeter, although I used to make jets with 0.30mm holes in brass, 8mm down a 1.20mm clearance hole.
I've more or less given up machining (and a lot of other things) since my eyesight started getting worse, I use x7 or x10 loupe's to read micrometers nowadays and switched to dial calipers (still need x2 loupe for that)
@@1crazypj The microscope was between US$ 300 and $500 depending on the accessories (from Eakins in China via Aliexpress). Seems like a bargain to me considering a Sony point-and-shoot camera is US$1,000! There's an affiliate link in the video description near the bottom if you want to take a look at the current price with shipping for the same one I have and choose whichever accessories you'd like.
Seems like you need to sharp your graver
Yes! I learned me lesson on this one! The difficult thing was coming up with a good solution for sharpening. I now have a larger lathe with diamond plate grinding wheels (as well as regular grinding wheels) that make sharpening fast and easy. Just have to not go so fast that the graver gets too hot and loses its temper.
Great Video !!!! great work. you need to upgrade your graver sharpening process.
Thanks again for your comments and advice, Sonny! Diamond sharpening plates and a tool holder for sharpening are forthcoming but in the meantime I upgraded my graver purchasing process! Factory new Glardon Vallorbe LO 0501 and LO 0502 gravers are on the way. These are the two gravers that Vallorbe makes for watchmaking: diamond tip or square tip - made in sizes ranging from 1.5mm to 5mm in either hardened steel or high speed steel. I felt it was important to compare anything I sharpen with new gravers as a benchmark. I also picked up a meter of 3mm brass rod to practice with. For anyone that hasn't read the other comments, the new Glardon Vallorbe knife-style graver that I used in this video is made for hand engraving, not for the watchmaker's lathe. I'm excited to try again on much smaller parts with sharp, correct gravers!
@@IMakeWatches Yes the engravers gravers are commonly sold as watchmakers lathe tools. Those gravers are going to be awesome,
Yeah, thanks! I'll also make sure to point all of this out to others in my next video about the lathe.
You need to make a stationary bit graver holder out of glue, plastic and a fine screw so you can get a more comfortable accurate lathe.
Thanks for this comment but I'm not sure what you mean? Are you saying something like a poor-man's cross slide? That sounds very interesting but how do you make it strong and adjustable? Eventually I'll have to get a cross slide, it just may take a while watching auctions.
Yeah a slider with a lathe bit attachment. You could look at one and recreate a small one for yourself at a hardware store. You might find a lathe bit attachment on a Chinese website or make a primitive one your self. I watched one on TH-cam, but didn't save the link to remember where to see it again.🧩🧩
Yeah, cool! I also looked on Aliexpress for a cheap cross slide and some way to attach it. It would be a lot easier with an American-style lathe because the top of the bar instead of the side is flat on an American-style watchmaker's lathe. Anyway, I'll be watching the auctions in and vintage dealers in Switzerland and will eventually find one! Meanwhile it's also fun to practice and learn to hand-hold the gravers. I bought some 3mm brass rod yesterday to practice on.
next time you should stick with silversteel instead this gummy stainless steel material ! , sometimes files ( there are files made for use on a lathe ) give you better results when doing the finishing
Thanks! I’ll try silversteel next time! And files (I also bought a bunch of old watchmaking files)
@@IMakeWatches you realy need files suitable for work on the lathe ! normal watchmaking files will clogg up and dull quickly ! also your filerest on the lathe could be a bit higher ! leanr how to grind propper tool geomtry ! it hurts to watch your video :)
Thanks! I subbed your channel and will see what I can glean from it. Are you in Austria? Let me know if you're ever in Geneva! I'd love to have you stop by and make a video together!
@@IMakeWatches Hy , sory for my late reply, MY channel is poorly maintained. i do most of my postings on Facebook, or in a german metal foruzm called Zerspanungsbude or in the Model engineering forum ( model engine maker ) . unfortunatley i am in vienna and far away from Geneva !"
You need some wood handles for your gravers. Small wood drawer pulls are OK. Cut a flat on them to give you a feel for the angles.
Thanks! Yes, I can buy the real things here in Switzerland for a few bucks! I kind of knew that the engraver's handle was wrong but bought that anyway thinking that the flat side was how you felt the angle. It makes more sense to use a longer cylindrical handle since the watchmaker's gravers are square, your eyes need to be on the tip anyway, and attack angle is more important that rotation. Thanks again for this comment!
Wow! Where did you get that screw plate? It looks brand new! o.o Both of mine are worn and brown with age.
I got it from Dave's Watch Parts in the US. Link in description. But I also cleaned it lightly with with antirust treatment. 😀
Добрый день! Можно ли было сначала отпустить металлический стержень и выточить нужную форму, а потом закалить его?
Да, я думаю, что это правильный путь!
Progress!
Thanks AllTrue!
I saw one other video from you, your lathe needs some adjustments and has a lot of axial play. ""Making a Stem" 😂 for a Patek Philippe 16-250 with my New Lathe"
Yes, thanks! Other viewers informed me of that and I tightened it up in the subsequent video in which I lubricated it and tightened the cone bearing without completely disassembling the bearing. I will completely disassemble clean and relubricate it in a follow-up video. I didn't want to break it so I waited for user comments and found some detailed videos about disassembly / reassembly. In any case thank you for this comment! The comments on many of my videos are at least as important as the videos because my mistakes and user comments reveal details that otherwise are seldom discussed in TH-cam videos and even more rarely shown visually.
Hi Dayton, thanks fot the video. Where did you source the magnifying glasses you are wearing? How strong is the magnification?
I am wearing glasses like you and I haven't yet found any decent one.
I got them at bijutil.ch (they have a shop in Geneva) for 11 Chf (about 13 USD). But I should warn you that the shop recommended against them as they are very fragile, and I've only used them very lightly because of that. Next week when I'm back in my studio I'll check the brand and update you with that so you can see if you can source them wherever you are. www.bijoutil.ch/en/watchmaker/tools-machines/magnifier-microscopes/2086/binocular-watchmakermagnifier-ligh-3-interchangeable-lenses?c=358
@@IMakeWatches Thanks a lot
@@fabriziovirdone7228 Sorry, I was reviewing comments just now and realized I forgot to check the brand and get back to you. Will do that later today! One thing I realized is that with the lathe and my level of experience (zero), it's probably better to use an Optivisor for better eye protection. But those lightweight over-the-glasses magnifiers are nice for safer work. In any case I'll let you know the brand a bit later today.
Hi Fabrizio, those glasses don't even have a brand name but if you google magnifier+with+LED+lamp+9157-3 that should pull up some links for you! (9157-3 is the "product number")
@@IMakeWatches Thank you. I guess it is a chinese brand. I have seen few like them on Aliexpress. I wanted to check with yours if they were a clone of some occidental quality brand.
Thanks again
Can u sharpen the edge of the trashed graver ?
Thanks for this question AllTrue! Yes, in theory you can (and in fact must) sharpen them, but I need more practice, and graver holder for sharpening, and a diamond encrusted sharpening plate (which I've ordered). I'll do an update with specifics about the tools when I'm able to do it correctly.
Are you sure your lathe is turning in the correct direction? The part being turned should rotate towards you.
That's a good question! The material was coming over the top towards me and then down onto the tip of the graver. That's correct, right? I could see that sometimes in the video it looks like it's going the other direction but I think that's just a video thing like the wheels appearing to rotate backwards on a car.
Great! That is the correct rotation. I almost didn’t comment because I thought it might be an artifact of video production. The tool rest is different from full size metal lathes and more like that in wood lathes. Full size lathes have a rigid fixed tool holder. But you made a mighty small screw with your equipment! Great job!
@@frankbonsignore.RochesterNY Thanks! Next up is a 0.8mm screw! With the correct graver!
Your graver ground angles are wrong. It looked like the front clearance angle was zero ( square to top of cutter). I use an engine lathe with HSS cutter. Front clearance 7-8 degrees, with a positive rake about 12 degrees for annealed silver steel. Today I cut a pin .016” diameter from .125” stock in a single pass, (remember to pull tool back before returning to the right or the pin climbs the tool) then polished to .015” with 400 grit paper then with 1200 grit.
If you cut brass top rake is zero, and you can reduce front clearance, ( but I don’t). 38:30
Thanks! I have now learned how to sharpen gravers properly enough to cut my fingers on them regularly and I've been studying rake angles. It's great to have this detailed comment and encouragement! Onward!
Need some lubricant when cutting those threads - it will be easier and your thread plate will last longer. Get some tapping oil - don't need much!
Isn't that what I was using? (I used TapMagic)
@@IMakeWatches Sorry, maybe I missed you applying tapping oil to the thread plate. If you did then great!
@@johnhinkey5336 I applied it generously to the tip of the workpiece not the plate. But in any case using tapping oil is still good advice (and a must as I understand it) for anyone reading the comments. I should have applied it to both the workpiece and the plate. Next time I will!
@@IMakeWatches Where did you get your screw plate from? Seems a handy thing to have around!
@@johnhinkey5336 Thanks for asking! Dave’s Watch Parts. Link in the description. US $20.
Machining is painful to watch
It's even more painful to do! Especially when you stab your hand with a centering punch or get slapped in the face with a broken belt! 😂😂😂 th-cam.com/users/shortslBdNZJfBGg4?feature=share
Just commenting to help with viewer engagement. Also, to the safety police that lurk in these areas: Why?
Thanks for the engagement comment! It's also fun for me to engage with viewers so feel free to comment any time!
Yeah, about safety, I think (and hope) it's all in good fun!
I like to joke about getting hurt while also taking safety seriously. I briefly worked with Mark Pauline of Survival Research Labs in New York in the 1980s who lost four of his fingers messing around with rockets and had toes grafted on in place of his fingers (not sure if they were his toes or someone else's). I also worked on a project in Nice on which a rack of 100 Martin follow spots 40 feet high on scaffolding with metal wheels rolled over a crew members foot and turned it into a smoothie. One of the reasons I chose to learn watchmaking at this advanced age is to not have to worry about blowing myself up, losing digits or limbs or falling to my death. Nevertheless, safety should always come first, even in watchmaking! 😂😂😂
Nice video about watchmaker lathe turning. Have you ever watched ClickSpring channel? I think he have a full series about tools and using one of those lathes.
Yes, thanks! @clickspring is fantastic! It's on my list of favorite channels! Also @chronovaengineering!
Bonjour de France je suis vos réparations de montre régulièrement je regarde le tournage sur tour et je crois que votre outillage est mal adapté utilisé et surtout vous ne maîtrisez pas l’affutage de vos outils et vous pourriez vous blaisser car tourner le métal doit se faire en douceur et avec un lubrifiant la hauteur de coupe de l’outil doit doit être a zéro et perpendiculaire à la pièce ce n’est pas du grattage revoyez les bases de l’art du tourneur bonne continuation😅❤❤❤ Gilles
Merci Gilles! J'ai trouvé intéressant de faire des vidéos "pour la première fois" pour montrer aux spectateurs ce qui est possible sans expérience ni formation. Grâce aux commentaires de téléspectateurs comme vous et à des recherches et pratiques supplémentaires, je vais beaucoup mieux ! Continuez à regarder pour voir mes améliorations !
- th-cam.com/video/gCb_ZHGb9ws/w-d-xo.html
- th-cam.com/video/gK-5s5jAg0c/w-d-xo.html ... 😃
Thanks! Great link! I did watch this already and have upped my game since I made this video.
Fils means sons, not brothers
OMG, you're so right! I should know that but I only have a fille. She's going to be deeply embarrassed if she ever watches this video since she's been trying to teach me French since she was a baby! 😂😂😂
@@IMakeWatches nothing to be embarrassed about, its very normal to make mistakes. :) very interesting video.. I am still in the middle of watching it. Bonne chance avec le Francais, ce n'est pas facile a apprendre. :)
@@jonathanforget8988 Yeah, I've only lived in Geneva for 25 years. Maybe if I decide to settle down here I'll try to learn the language! 😂😂😂 I was at the lake with my daughter before she could even walk, so when she was around one year old, and I said, "Regarde l'oiseau, Mila !" and she snapped back at me (in English): "Actually, that's a DUCK, Dad!" I will remember that forever because she used the word "actually" and then I had to carry her back to the house after being shamed like that because she was literally still too young to walk. Anyway, that totally shamed me and I've never recovered! I still have no idea how to say "actually" in French. I think I usually say "actualment" because that sounds French to me but I just googled that and it means "currently". I did finally stop calling my wife mon mari however, after a friend told me that he didn't know that I was gay! 😂😂😂
@@IMakeWatches that's hilarious. I mean you weren't technically wrong, a duck is a bird :P I would probably translate Actually to 'En Fait' . I had a good laugh at your explanation of the feeling of metal splinters in a finger. Lol I've had many of those and sometime you only realize you have one a couple days later .. good times. keep on learnin!
you're wrestling with a gorilla. very fine part get a tool post cross slide. and use it like a metal lathe.
💪🏼Thanks for this comment Donny! I definitely want a tool post cross slide now! 😂
Was für ein Blödsinn! Ich habe jetzt 12min gesehen. Länger halte ich es nicht aus. Du kannst nicht drehen! Aber ganz wichtig ist, dass man dass mit 3 Kamerapositionen dokumentiert.
Danke! Es macht viel Spaß, das Uhrmacherhandwerk zu erlernen und diese Erfahrung zu teilen! Wenn man beide Bänke mit einbezieht, sind es tatsächlich 14 Kamerapositionen. 😂😂😂