Hey, I'm actually a chemist, and was about to leave a comment expressing my doubts about if you made hydrogen. But then I watched your previous videos, and it actually seems pretty convincing...I'm impressed! I would suggest digesting the "metal" flakes you dumped out previously in an acid (hydrochloric, or nitric if you have it...or mix both of those to REALLY do the job!) to see how much is actually carbon. If nothing really dissolves, then the "metal" might actually be something called pyrolytic graphite: a shiny form of carbon specifically made by thermal decomposition of carbon-containing molecules like propane! A quick note though...hydrogen can't really reduce metals, since they are already in their most reduced state. It CAN cause hydrogen embrittlement however, which might be the cause of the flaking...or maybe superheated carbon is impregnating and oversaturating the steel to the point where it fails. It's hard to say! I'd be curious to see how different materials behave in the pyrolysis chamber for sure. Maybe electroplating it in platinum would help, since it is a great catalyst for hydrocarbon pyrolysis and cannot be oxidized! Kinda overkill, but it was an interesting idea, lol. I look forward to seeing how you over the issues in later models!
Hello friend , i was suggesting the sugared stainless steel was reduced back to non oxidized metal . You see in welding if we dont back purge the metal oxygen will travel from the back of the weld to the top . So even though there is no oxygen in the cracking chamber it travels through the inner side from the combustor into the cracker oxidizing the metal . But then the flaking oxide layers get reduced by the hydrogen and maybe even the propane would do a bit of reducing to the sugared stainless steel . Great point about the embrittlement . I hope that made sense , the oxygen travels through the yellow hot metal kind how oxygen travels through a weld that's not back purged .
@@NOBOX7 ah, cool! Maybe a quick coat of high temperature paint or insulation will help with the oxidation then! It might also be worth making the cracking chamber easily disassemblable, just in case the carbon starts to build up and can't be blown or burned out.
Get with a 3d printed suppressor company and see if they’ll sponsor the build to show off how superior their metallurgy is under high temps and preventing carbon buildup.
So far the current back plate is doing ok , it can take all the air you can give it without a flame out if the fuel is up high enough . You are correct though in the sense thats definitely a way to get more power . I have 2 videos on the subject . Check out the fat man burner on my channel to see your wisdom come to life . In that video i do a similar fix as you request an wow did it work .
Actually reminds me of a cross between the Starship Enterprise and the Bug from the Matrix in its untenticled form. Hydrogen: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the NOBOX7 Propane Cracker Its five-week mission: to explore strange new temperatures; to seek out new designs and new thermocouples to boldly melt stuff where no melt has gone before!
Injecting superheated steam into the gas stream will catalyse it bringing the reaction temp down to 800 deg C however there will be some CO in the stream but i don't see that would matter, and it would cure the carbon build up problem and lower the temps inside the burner propper. prob best to have the super heater reaction tubes in the centre of the burner tunnel. the4n inject air downstream of the reactor for the bulk high temp combustion. Just a thought. I'm looking at ways of generating large amounts of unburnt hygagon on demand for another use. But the CO would make it unacceptibvle in my application.
your castable nozzle might do the last of the cracking as the ceramic style nozzle ramps up in stored heat creating a possible cracking zone, hopefully at the input end. Maybe a stainless double tube gas jacket around/holding the nozzle, if it had a few layers like concentric tubes like a telescope you could have multiple expansion layers, probably wont need to go all the way up the nozzle...halfway may be enough
You probably already know but a hydrovane air compressor is a great way to produce high volume-high pressure air. We had one in our engineeing workshop and it was great. Nice and quiet too. None of that rattly piston noise.
A good design could pull it off but carbon build up is an issue . Yes you can crack liquid fuels but we may need more energy to do it . After all we was able to crack liquid propane and thats a freezing cold liquid
The design in this video is flawed but as for the last design Maybe we could double the size with my current air compressor set up but in my experience the larger the burner the cooler it runs . Due mostly to the air compressor limitations . The process can be scaled up by many orders of magnitude with a compatible design but as is you would need a 25 hp air compressor to get much bigger . We maxed out a 14 hp compressor . You need that higher pressure combustion to get this kinda heat. Im gonna try this design one more time with the other big compressor but i think its just a total flop . I like to share my failures as well . We tend to learn the most from mistakes as success could walk you on the edge of failure without knowing it . But failure ,,,now this is an event that makes it plainly obvious as to what needs to be done to succeed
Why not consider building the cracking chamber out of ceramics, specifically alumina? Edit: A day or so ago I thought you might be able to separate out the carbon with cyclonic separation. The basics are, well, fairly basic, you have a conically shaped volume (with the small end pointing down) and the mixture of gas and particles introduced at high velocity at a tangential angle. The resultant centrifugal force will throw the denser particles toward the wall and gravity will pull them toward the bottom (there are various ways to 'drain' the particles) while the gas will move toward the middle and rise up. This way you can configure your cracker to blow the carbon out continuously to avoid clogging while also not having to worry about clogging your valve mixer downstream.
@@NOBOX7 Cost how? Go to a local ceramics school and ask them to make something from porcelain. Porcelain clay is likely way cheaper than inconel. And you can fire it yourself, if their kiln can't get hot enough (cone 10).
@@NOBOX7 square alumina sheets are rather cheap, apparently they are consumables for flour mills and the like, but they at most can be used as heatshielding liner
I wonder what would happen if you run gases such as hydrogen through an ozone generator? It has been done and called hyzone. Hard to find what the effects of hyzone were. So imagine O2 through a high power ozone tube and hydrogen on it's own then mixed and burnt. Also wonder what would happen if you ran propane through a high power ozone tube. Would it crack it making lighter more energetic gas?
Yes it definitely needs an alien tech design . These preliminary stages are helping sort out things like co flow Vs counter flow on the heat exchange an basic combuster design . This thing was a flop but i did learn a couple good bit of info . Mostly how i will not be going with a co flow design on the heat exchanger . Counter flow was used on the last one and it had some key features one being the discharge tube was not as hot . Thats wasted heat leaving the pyrolizer/cracker .
Can't you just wrap more tubing, and put it closer to the barrel? What about insulating the whole thing? It does seem like you may not be getting a full burn with whatever gas, but I wonder what it'd be like if you used hydrogen AND forced air or an oxygen input. I think I've seen an HHO torch video where this guy said he got like 5200f. His flame was orange, so even with oxygen added it's still burning rich
Yes it needs some insulation for sure . This design just isnt cutting it . The older design that worked had a 1 mm thick inner liner and you need that thin metal for those yellow hot heats
@@NOBOX7 this'd be a sick thing to have 3D printed, but it'd be crazy expensive. Take a look at 3D printed suppressors, specifically OSS/HUXWRX ones and take a look at what's going on inside those. I'm sure you'd be able to do some gnarly stuff with that, and you'd be able to use inconel or whatever other crazy mix. Even with just regular stuff, I don't see why you couldn't have super deep "threads" cut into the inner liner and have a sleeve stuffed over that and welded to mimic coils. You could maybe even just do sleeved tubes with a maze type situation where the gas goes forwards and backwards a bit
Yeah it was a real bummer to do all that work . I like to show my failures so we can learn from them . I admit i failed in this video but the trolls have joined in to re re assure me that i failed LOL . They now claim the process is impossible not knowing we did it already with the older design . Pretty cool LOL
@NOBOX7 I understand man I'm waiting for the day you publish a book. I watch your channel from when you where just f arround. Now it grew in methodical research and you make all that available for free. Stupids just increase entropy we all know that
Idk where he thought the hydrogen came from? It takes more energy to break the hydrogen off the propane than you get by burning the same hydrogen. In addition hydrogen is clear to pale blue when burning. In addition, the orange color is just carbon soot from incomplete combustion glowing at incandescent temperatures, this is usually the same for the bottles of h2 or the tanker was they are hardly pure. For a pure flame look at h2 rockets and tell me the hydrogen is orange. Still a neat design but no hydrogen
Hydrogen out of reforming, the energy equation will be the same. So the output of heat per kg of fuel will be same . What the previus burner was good is at packing that energy in a really dense spot.
High voltage high frequency can crack gases. The Papp engine used cracked noble gasses. I think he use 100kv DC to treat the gasses. The treated gasses were stable after treatment. It discharged a needle point to do this.
The energy will not be the same. H2 or monotonic H will be far less energeticly favored, requiring more energy input than output. Additionally, the red heat and the flame ejecting out the front is the added energy you WOULD need, the radiant heat off this alone would be a net loss. What he has is a pressure boosted propane flame, much like the idea of an oxy fuel torch. After all, nobody is claiming an oxy acetylene torch is thermally decomposing the hydrogen off the hydrocarbon....and those flames will be *much* hotter than this
LOL you didn't see the other videos and your dead wrong . We produced hydrogen in the last couple videos just not in this test , no open flame gets 2,582 deg without oxygen enrichment buddy . I may be deleting your comment because you are so wrong . Go watch the other videos on this project . Hydrogen burns orange in most cases . It does not take more energy to break the propane bonds then that f the hydrogen is flat out wrong , We disected the last device and seen the carbon build up and the reduction of the metal .
We're American man, that's what we use. If it's interesting enough, just take 5 seconds and check on a calculator. The numbers aren't even important, it's the large difference that is
Fully oxidized Hydrogen flame is colorless to blue Your previous burner was orange because of uncombusted carbon since the air supply was too low. The flame was fuel rich In many ways you're wasting your time since just burning propane normally cracks the propane directly in the flame in the process of combusting
@@prophetrob Colour of that flame might come from the fart of the neighborn. Any impurity even at parts per billion will colour the flame. The point is not 150% efficiency, is energy density of the flame. How much energy I can pack in smallest area possible.
@@NOBOX7 If it doesn't crack the propane what the hell is burning? The propane molecule has to be decomposed before the carbons and hydrogens can be oxidized The products of complete propane combustion are water and carbon dioxide. The water comes from the oxidation of the hydrogen that made up the propane. This is simple chemistry
Guys why is hydrogen turning me into a Jerk again LOL . Look out in the comment section im on a roll with the troll
I think your last burner was using the nickel and iron in the stainless steel to catalyze the reaction
Hey, I'm actually a chemist, and was about to leave a comment expressing my doubts about if you made hydrogen. But then I watched your previous videos, and it actually seems pretty convincing...I'm impressed! I would suggest digesting the "metal" flakes you dumped out previously in an acid (hydrochloric, or nitric if you have it...or mix both of those to REALLY do the job!) to see how much is actually carbon. If nothing really dissolves, then the "metal" might actually be something called pyrolytic graphite: a shiny form of carbon specifically made by thermal decomposition of carbon-containing molecules like propane! A quick note though...hydrogen can't really reduce metals, since they are already in their most reduced state. It CAN cause hydrogen embrittlement however, which might be the cause of the flaking...or maybe superheated carbon is impregnating and oversaturating the steel to the point where it fails. It's hard to say! I'd be curious to see how different materials behave in the pyrolysis chamber for sure. Maybe electroplating it in platinum would help, since it is a great catalyst for hydrocarbon pyrolysis and cannot be oxidized! Kinda overkill, but it was an interesting idea, lol. I look forward to seeing how you over the issues in later models!
Hello friend , i was suggesting the sugared stainless steel was reduced back to non oxidized metal . You see in welding if we dont back purge the metal oxygen will travel from the back of the weld to the top . So even though there is no oxygen in the cracking chamber it travels through the inner side from the combustor into the cracker oxidizing the metal . But then the flaking oxide layers get reduced by the hydrogen and maybe even the propane would do a bit of reducing to the sugared stainless steel . Great point about the embrittlement . I hope that made sense , the oxygen travels through the yellow hot metal kind how oxygen travels through a weld that's not back purged .
I think ive seen your videos by the way as im definitely into chemistry channels
@@NOBOX7 ah, cool! Maybe a quick coat of high temperature paint or insulation will help with the oxidation then! It might also be worth making the cracking chamber easily disassemblable, just in case the carbon starts to build up and can't be blown or burned out.
See THIS is what TH-cam is for. Ideas and collaboration to make said idea even better. Great job NOBOX7
Bro knows his black body radiation physics
Get with a 3d printed suppressor company and see if they’ll sponsor the build to show off how superior their metallurgy is under high temps and preventing carbon buildup.
Thats the ideal way to build this . Bro we could do alien tech design features with that kinda tooling .
Brilliant proposition friend
Hi friend. Insistence is the mother of progress. You are the living example. You DO things. Others just hit a keyboard. Thanks once more.
You might need to use some kind of a flame holder to prevent your high pressure gas from blowing the flame out
So far the current back plate is doing ok , it can take all the air you can give it without a flame out if the fuel is up high enough . You are correct though in the sense thats definitely a way to get more power . I have 2 videos on the subject . Check out the fat man burner on my channel to see your wisdom come to life . In that video i do a similar fix as you request an wow did it work .
Actually reminds me of a cross between the Starship Enterprise and the Bug from the Matrix in its untenticled form.
Hydrogen: the final frontier. These are the voyages of the NOBOX7 Propane Cracker
Its five-week mission: to explore strange new temperatures; to seek out new
designs and new thermocouples to boldly melt stuff where no melt has gone before!
i like you and watching all this. keep it up duude!!
Could you cover or insulate select areas to compensate for the excess mass?
Dont you have a massive HHO generator? What happens when you feed that into the burner alongside another fuel like oil/propane?
Injecting superheated steam into the gas stream will catalyse it bringing the reaction temp down to 800 deg C however there will be some CO in the stream but i don't see that would matter, and it would cure the carbon build up problem and lower the temps inside the burner propper. prob best to have the super heater reaction tubes in the centre of the burner tunnel. the4n inject air downstream of the reactor for the bulk high temp combustion. Just a thought. I'm looking at ways of generating large amounts of unburnt hygagon on demand for another use. But the CO would make it unacceptibvle in my application.
The reason thick metal does not conduct enough heat is because when you increase the temperature of metal you literally reduce its conductivity
Great input
Im gonna compare the thermal conductivity of 304 ss Vs Inconel 600 and 625 .
It would be very cool to see the hot parts inconel 3d printed. Pricey for a prototype.
your castable nozzle might do the last of the cracking as the ceramic style nozzle ramps up in stored heat creating a possible cracking zone, hopefully at the input end. Maybe a stainless double tube gas jacket around/holding the nozzle, if it had a few layers like concentric tubes like a telescope you could have multiple expansion layers, probably wont need to go all the way up the nozzle...halfway may be enough
You probably already know but a hydrovane air compressor is a great way to produce high volume-high pressure air. We had one in our engineeing workshop and it was great. Nice and quiet too. None of that rattly piston noise.
Have one I can run on a pto.
Originally had a 30hp electric motor
once its up to tempriture, would it also crack liquid fuels such as petrol, diesel, parafin or even waste oil?
A good design could pull it off but carbon build up is an issue . Yes you can crack liquid fuels but we may need more energy to do it . After all we was able to crack liquid propane and thats a freezing cold liquid
@@NOBOX7 You'll have to design a DPF for buring off the coal ;-) (Or just blow oxygen through the heated duct instead of gas once in a while.
I'm curious, how big will this scale?
The design in this video is flawed but as for the last design
Maybe we could double the size with my current air compressor set up but in my experience the larger the burner the cooler it runs . Due mostly to the air compressor limitations . The process can be scaled up by many orders of magnitude with a compatible design but as is you would need a 25 hp air compressor to get much bigger . We maxed out a 14 hp compressor . You need that higher pressure combustion to get this kinda heat.
Im gonna try this design one more time with the other big compressor but i think its just a total flop . I like to share my failures as well . We tend to learn the most from mistakes as success could walk you on the edge of failure without knowing it . But failure ,,,now this is an event that makes it plainly obvious as to what needs to be done to succeed
Great now i gotta delete all the curse words ive spewed over scoffers LOL
Fuck that
I think making a parabolic chamber for the fule and the burn chamber...or one inside the other... this way the carbon might not stick to the Walls
Do you need more air? Or more oxygen? I got an oxygen concentrator complete with the tank compressor that goes to 1500psi off of marketplace.
Yes in this case we needed more air . Enhanced oxygen would help for sure .
I want you to keep experimenting and don't listen to people. Some just discourage who at least are making efforts
Thankyou for the positive feedback . Im not against criticism if its accurate . "Negative people have a problem for every solution " { A. Einstein
Why not consider building the cracking chamber out of ceramics, specifically alumina?
Edit: A day or so ago I thought you might be able to separate out the carbon with cyclonic separation. The basics are, well, fairly basic, you have a conically shaped volume (with the small end pointing down) and the mixture of gas and particles introduced at high velocity at a tangential angle. The resultant centrifugal force will throw the denser particles toward the wall and gravity will pull them toward the bottom (there are various ways to 'drain' the particles) while the gas will move toward the middle and rise up. This way you can configure your cracker to blow the carbon out continuously to avoid clogging while also not having to worry about clogging your valve mixer downstream.
Fabrication cost
great idea its just hard to make .
@@NOBOX7 Cost how? Go to a local ceramics school and ask them to make something from porcelain. Porcelain clay is likely way cheaper than inconel. And you can fire it yourself, if their kiln can't get hot enough (cone 10).
I herd alumina offer a catalytic effect to this reaction but havnt seen any literature on it as of yet . One of the smarter commenters brought it up
@@NOBOX7 square alumina sheets are rather cheap, apparently they are consumables for flour mills and the like, but they at most can be used as heatshielding liner
I wonder what would happen if you run gases such as hydrogen through an ozone generator? It has been done and called hyzone. Hard to find what the effects of hyzone were. So imagine O2 through a high power ozone tube and hydrogen on it's own then mixed and burnt. Also wonder what would happen if you ran propane through a high power ozone tube. Would it crack it making lighter more energetic gas?
Would an high voltage Ozone tube electrostatically crack propane or other gases?
My buddy M3scal made that stuff one time . Would be neat to try those kinds of exotic fuel systems
Maybe use a double wall pipe that will both cool the hydrogen and preheat the propane
Yes it definitely needs an alien tech design . These preliminary stages are helping sort out things like co flow Vs counter flow on the heat exchange an basic combuster design . This thing was a flop but i did learn a couple good bit of info . Mostly how i will not be going with a co flow design on the heat exchanger . Counter flow was used on the last one and it had some key features one being the discharge tube was not as hot . Thats wasted heat leaving the pyrolizer/cracker .
How much air preheat are you getting?
quite a bit , I'm guessing her but i know its on the order 500 F due to the red hot gas line entering the T fitting
Can't you just wrap more tubing, and put it closer to the barrel? What about insulating the whole thing?
It does seem like you may not be getting a full burn with whatever gas, but I wonder what it'd be like if you used hydrogen AND forced air or an oxygen input.
I think I've seen an HHO torch video where this guy said he got like 5200f. His flame was orange, so even with oxygen added it's still burning rich
Yes it needs some insulation for sure . This design just isnt cutting it . The older design that worked had a 1 mm thick inner liner and you need that thin metal for those yellow hot heats
@@NOBOX7 this'd be a sick thing to have 3D printed, but it'd be crazy expensive. Take a look at 3D printed suppressors, specifically OSS/HUXWRX ones and take a look at what's going on inside those. I'm sure you'd be able to do some gnarly stuff with that, and you'd be able to use inconel or whatever other crazy mix.
Even with just regular stuff, I don't see why you couldn't have super deep "threads" cut into the inner liner and have a sleeve stuffed over that and welded to mimic coils. You could maybe even just do sleeved tubes with a maze type situation where the gas goes forwards and backwards a bit
Run your air line and propane line through a bucket of liquid nitrogen
You must figure out a way of building the combustion chamber of Incolnel or siC, quite i challenge. This time no hydrogen man.
Yeah it was a real bummer to do all that work . I like to show my failures so we can learn from them . I admit i failed in this video but the trolls have joined in to re re assure me that i failed LOL . They now claim the process is impossible not knowing we did it already with the older design . Pretty cool LOL
I wasnt reffuring to you by the way when i said They" came to re re assure me .
@NOBOX7 I understand man I'm waiting for the day you publish a book. I watch your channel from when you where just f arround. Now it grew in methodical research and you make all that available for free. Stupids just increase entropy we all know that
Fuel from electrolosis
Idk where he thought the hydrogen came from? It takes more energy to break the hydrogen off the propane than you get by burning the same hydrogen. In addition hydrogen is clear to pale blue when burning. In addition, the orange color is just carbon soot from incomplete combustion glowing at incandescent temperatures, this is usually the same for the bottles of h2 or the tanker was they are hardly pure. For a pure flame look at h2 rockets and tell me the hydrogen is orange. Still a neat design but no hydrogen
Hydrogen out of reforming, the energy equation will be the same.
So the output of heat per kg of fuel will be same .
What the previus burner was good is at packing that energy in a really dense spot.
High voltage high frequency can crack gases. The Papp engine used cracked noble gasses. I think he use 100kv DC to treat the gasses. The treated gasses were stable after treatment. It discharged a needle point to do this.
The energy will not be the same. H2 or monotonic H will be far less energeticly favored, requiring more energy input than output. Additionally, the red heat and the flame ejecting out the front is the added energy you WOULD need, the radiant heat off this alone would be a net loss. What he has is a pressure boosted propane flame, much like the idea of an oxy fuel torch. After all, nobody is claiming an oxy acetylene torch is thermally decomposing the hydrogen off the hydrocarbon....and those flames will be *much* hotter than this
LOL you didn't see the other videos and your dead wrong . We produced hydrogen in the last couple videos just not in this test , no open flame gets 2,582 deg without oxygen enrichment buddy . I may be deleting your comment because you are so wrong . Go watch the other videos on this project . Hydrogen burns orange in most cases . It does not take more energy to break the propane bonds then that f the hydrogen is flat out wrong , We disected the last device and seen the carbon build up and the reduction of the metal .
Yeah im gonna delete you because your just flat out wrong
Why do you use Fahrenheit? Most of the world uses Celsius. Who the hell is supposed to convert it?
I used Celsius several times in this video
We're American man, that's what we use. If it's interesting enough, just take 5 seconds and check on a calculator. The numbers aren't even important, it's the large difference that is
Fully oxidized Hydrogen flame is colorless to blue
Your previous burner was orange because of uncombusted carbon since the air supply was too low. The flame was fuel rich
In many ways you're wasting your time since just burning propane normally cracks the propane directly in the flame in the process of combusting
@@prophetrob Colour of that flame might come from the fart of the neighborn. Any impurity even at parts per billion will colour the flame. The point is not 150% efficiency, is energy density of the flame.
How much energy I can pack in smallest area possible.
@@l.c.9524 So true Glad to have a voice of reason . I think people just like to argue LOL
That was not a fuel rich flame . It had over 10 cfm of air going in at 140 psi . Frekn wow dude , your confidence must get you laid daily ...
@@NOBOX7 what was the cfm of propane?
@@NOBOX7 If it doesn't crack the propane what the hell is burning? The propane molecule has to be decomposed before the carbons and hydrogens can be oxidized
The products of complete propane combustion are water and carbon dioxide. The water comes from the oxidation of the hydrogen that made up the propane. This is simple chemistry