I was present for the Janson recording of Shostakovich 8 in Pittsburgh. It was shortly after 9/11, and it’s the most incredible live orchestral experience I’ve ever had.
I appreciate that your discussions of these symphonies center around MUSIC. It’s so hard to find anything about Shostakovich that isn’t biography and history. That’s why I enjoy this series in particular. Thank you Dave!
After all these years, the Kondrashin version is still the most biting and gripping. I first heard it when in senior high school 40 years ago. We were studying Orwell’s 1984 at the time. The snare drum section about 7 minutes in, was the perfect soundtrack for the Two Minutes Hate
Your talk made me listen to Sanderling's Berlin SO version, here at TH-cam - with the scrolling score, I love that. Gripping performance, grim indeed (I never heard the great "crash" at the beginning of the 4th movement more convincingly devastating - that prominent tam-tam!) Following the music with the score made me realize too how much Shostakovich' textures in this symphony resemble his string quartet writing - in fact I think it's his first symphony where some of the fingerprints of his "late", sparse chamber music style are already present. A forward looking piece, maybe it isn't a coincidence that it shares its main key with both the 4th symphony and the 8th quartet. And again, good to hear some well deserved praise for Rostropovich again. I always loved his Teldec cycle, more than some other ones that got rave reviews in the press.
The first time I have ever heard this symphony was with Rostropovich and the Schleswig-Holstein Musikfestival-Orchestra in my hometown Kiel. It was a great experience. In the first half of the concert, Kissin played Mozart 27. Greetings from Northern Germany
I performed Shostakovich 8th with Andrew Litton here in Honolulu back in 1990 and thought he was fantastic. He later recorded it with the Dallas Symphony Orchestra for Delos.
The Passacaglia is extraordinary. I was lucky enough to see Haitink conduct the Eighth at the Proms in the Albert Hall 5 September 1983 with the Concertgebouw. He was recording it with them, although it wasn't released until 1984 I think.
Many thanks, as always, David. Solti's Decca recording with the Chicago Symphony is one particularly dear to me: quite powerful yet gripping. I think serious collectors should definitely check it out.
Thank you for this musictalk (and all the others ❤️). You always find the way to talk about the music, what it is, and the composers work and intensions. Elsewhere the talks is about WW2, Stalin and such guys. I took out my records, and read the linernotes, and Shosta and his music is not the importen thing. One exception is the Sanderling, who of course tells great about the music and the composer. So do you Mr. Hurwitz, you set the music free again, thanks. 🎶
Such a great piece! I remember when the Previn EMI came out and I've loved it since then. Shostakovich is often beautiful...yes! There's a string passage near the end of the Tenth Symphony with that quality you describe here in the Eighth. I have a live recording by Bělohlávek of Shostakovich 8 that blows my mind. The sound is quite good, but I wish he had recorded the work in the studio. Thanks for all your recommendations on this great work.
I imprinted on the Haitink, so didn't do so badly in that regard apparently! The playing and interpretation still strike me as near as damnit perfect - I also think amongst the darkness Haitink finds sardonic humour (there's a kind of Kablevesky parody in the third movement, a vulgar trumpet tune blasting gloriously away which is hilarious - it's as though Shostakovich is thumbing a nose at a May day parade - brilliant!)
It was always because of this that I found his Viola sonata profound in a disturbing yet beautiful way. It dies into infinity, along with Shostakovich, you can hear the viola ring on until you make the conscious decision to let shostakovich go and allow him to rest on for the rest of infinity. Its as peaceful as it is terrifying in regards of death
Your level of engagement with Shostakovich 8 -- its structure and the many fine recordings of it -- is for me the most moving video you have done. As usual I find your recommendations well argued and, in addition to the Levi and Kitayenko recordings I have, I will seek out at least one performance of your top three (Jarvi, Haitink, Rostropovich, and maybe Sanderling). For me, among his symphonies, this acorn was a particularly hard one to crack. Now it is the most rewarding, closely followed by 4 and 13. Only after a concert performance of the St Petersburg (ex-Leningrad) Philharmonic conducted by Rostropovich in the summer of 1996 in St. Petersburg, did I wake up to the tragic magnificence of this musical canvas. Living in St. Petersburg for two years convinced me that 8 more than 7 (or 11) is Shostakovich's true eulogy to Leningrad. As you point out, the last movement speaks of a brief if fragile moment of hope and respite after the nightmare and hideous devastation of the 872 day siege, 1941 to 1944. Maybe all will be able to go on as before. Shostakovich seems to affirm hope, but not at the expense of memory to go unacknowledged and unhallowed. Symphony 13 eventually provided that opportunity.
Brilliant analysis! Thank you! I appreciate the Previn, Slatkin and Jansons/Pittsburgh Symphony references. In particular, I feel that Previn & Slatkin are not given their due in the recording world. My favorite bits: "fluttering, flowing flutes" and "maybe I don't know what I'm talking about!" Lol! You definitely know what you are talking about (that's why I subscribe) and I appreciate that you share your knowledge. When I hear your talks, I feel like I'm back in one of the happiest places in my memory: the couple of music courses that I so enjoyed at CCNY! Thanks!
I was living in Los Angeles in the late 80's and early 90's when the LA Phil had a romance with Sanderling, which was amazing as he was so not Hollywood glamor. I heard him do the 8th in March 1991at the Dorothy Chandler. He elicited the most devastating climaxes I ever heard in a live concert. I remember seeing this man, who looked like an East bloc gerontocratic apparatchik or Henry Kissinger, with his arms stretched out, just allowing the orchestra to be as loud as possible at the unraveling of the first movement. I never heard symphony music so violently loud before or since.
The L.A. orchestra loved Sanderling. Unfortunately cold war politics prevented him accepting a permanent post with Western orchestras. I envy you in getting the opportunity to see him live. I did see Kondrashin conducting Ein Heldenleben with the L.A. wonderful off stage trumpets!
Thank you for a wonderful analysis of the symphony’s structure, Dave. The 8th is a case of musical architecture perfectly constructed to bring out the desired emotions. I’d happily listen to any of the worthy recordings you list. The 8th in the new Wigglesworth box really nails all the varied moods the work has to offer. Slatkin is wonderfully, organically exiting too, much like his 4th. Oh how I wish Slatkin had recoded a full Shostakovich cycle! However, my personal HOWEVER is a tie between the well-gauged interpretations of Previn and Jarvi. I think I’ve only heard the Rostropovich once and it didn’t particularly stand out in the crowd for me, so time to give it another go and keep on listening!
@@danieldroppa3170 I rather like Caetani’s 8th. Overall a surprisingly strong cycle. I didn’t recall Symph 8 Movement 1 was so fast but it certainly doesn’t feel rushed.
I watched this video and just the next day I found by chance a (by no means easy to find) vinyl with Haitink's performance in an old record store here in Madrid. Absolutely stunning performance!
I was definitely surprised about your "However" here. You comments about the Haitink reminded me of something I read in one of my music books (and I'm paraphrasing): "Shostakovich had strength where his contemporaries lacked: he had the gift of melody." You probably won't like my usual line about Mravinsky: "Mravinsky out-Szell's George Szell" (ducking)
what a monster of a work- i remember getting Mravinsky & the Leningrad - and playing it for my boss at the time drinking bourbon- he wasn't a Shostakovich or a classical fan- until! it finished- especially the big trombones! great video David!
'I just love talking about geniuses; they make my job so easy'. 'Maybe I dont know what I'm talking about; there's always that possibility...' Haitink's performance rocks... what a recording. What an orchestra!
Another great video Dave, Thanks! I'm glad I watched this video. I am always truly marveled by this work and as always you have enlighten me even more.
A few random thoughts on my experiences of Shostakovich 8 recordings: 1) I was at the concert of Jansons performing this in Pittsburgh, that was recorded. And (to me) it was like so much else he did there: just a shade too dull to appreciate. Really frustrating. 2) Which is kinda how I experience Petrenko too. I'm just missing whatever it is that others get out of those recordings. 3) On the other hand, once I start listening to Kondrashin, all worries about the sound quickly disappear as I'm so engaged with the music. 4) Järvi and Sanderling would round out my top three.
Rozhdestvensky's version is well worth hearing, sound notwithstanding. We need a box set of his Shostakovich symphonies with a decent remastering that stays in print for more than 5 minutes. Idem for Kondrashin's set. Wishful thinking aside, many thanks for a fascinating talk. Made me listen again with "fresh ears"!
Rozhdestvenksy's 8th is my favorite and maybe my favorite recording of any Shostakovich symphony. For me, It has the intensity required for what I imagine he was going for in this symphony. Especially the 3rd movement. The sound is not good but the interpretation and performance make up for that.
I'd never heard the symphony until I attended a performance by Slatkin and the Chicago Symphony (it must have been in 1982). The "Band" was in peak form and the experience was shattering. I taped the WFMT broadcast and (despite the sonics), listened to it until I switched to CDs (then it was Haitink). WFMT or the symphony must have a tape somewhere they could remaster. I also heard the Jansons/Pittsburgh performance live. It was the woodwinds that struck me most during that performance.
Dear Dr. Dave, back in a decade long ago, I majored in something we called music literature. I looked forward to every class with my major professor and what he did was similar to what you have done here: a gripping discussion of the techniques employed followed by a listen through the versions we had available in the school’s library. His sense of humor was so subtle that it often flew over everyone’s head. I appreciate the fact that 85% of your humor, while quite intelligent, is also readily accessible. I do wish you had mentioned the 8th quartet and, perhaps a more obscure collection, the film Fandango. Nonetheless, I am absolutely head over heels about your website and am not embarrassed to tell you I am about 15%-20% of my way through everything you have done and I can only hope you start moving more quickly so I can delay running out of the great enjoyment of learning from you.
Great and so helpful a talk on the work, making it easier to appreciate and grasp. Thanks! I listened to the Rostropovich/Washington disc, it's excellent. Another I have that I felt is terrific is Gergiev/Marinsky on Philips, recorded in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw in '94. The sometimes boring Gergiev sounds very involved, as do the excellent players, he doesn't get fussy with the piece, and the climaxes are thunderous. Really good sound too. I know, I know, it's Gergiev. Everyone's milage may vary. I find it communicates powerfully to me.
I completely agree about that Rostropovich NSO recording, it’s my favorite too (also by pure chance the first version I ever heard), and the #1 reason is that absolutely perfect tempo for the Toccata.
A monsterpiece! As for the tick tock, isn't the end of the 15th symphony reminiscent of a toyshop as well as a clock? It would be musically and thematically justified. I hope you do a video on the 15th, anyway. Thanks for the helpful musicology.
I liked your comment about huge works often being relatively simple. It made me think of Brian’s powerful Gothic Symphony-part of the reason it’s so difficult to follow is probably because it lacks that simplicity. He tosses idea after idea at you!
In the finale I feel something even sadder - Shostakovich was overwhelmed by thoughts of impact of Stalinism and war. He dreamed of being resistant to them - that is I think his “message” - although the catastrophe of the first movement returned in the middle, all three “pastoral” themes survived, even though now they are all played by solos (and you know what happened to other players). But we remain untouched and feel somehow free of ourselves.
That’s a really interesting way of looking at it that I hadn’t thought of! After the climax of the fifth movement, the melodies are all the same, but it’s much more subdued, despite still having somewhat of a light and “joyful” tone. Maybe something along the lines of a community being completely and utterly broken, yet alive. Though the battle is over, the pieces are still slowly being picked up. Wow, my entire thought process on the end of this piece has completely changed.
many thanks, can't wait until you get to the 5th which is my favorite music of all. this is my joint second favorite Shostakovich Symphony together with the 4th. Am enjoying your videos very much and you open minded approach.
I know that documentary that you referenced in the video! It was called Soldiers of Music. It was excellent. I remember watching it as a kid and it was the first time I heard the 8th (they were playing the third mob in the doc). I went out and immediately bought the 8th after watching that doc.
Hooray! I've got to know the 8th through your wonderful 'however' choice, Rostropovich. So glad we agree. I've got other recordings, Previn and Mavrinsky, but this is the one I go back to. Have you heard how the orchestra actually seems to cry, in the first movement? I've never heard such a thing before. What a ride the whole thing is.
Would you also consider doing a talk on Shostakovich's String Quartets? Many of these pieces are so emotionally devastating, so that I want to know, which version would make me want to kill myself.
I was bed ridden due to an illness and to pass the time decided to read Wendy Lesser’s study of the string quartets and listen to them as the same time. Educate myself I thought! But I felt worst and worst each day until i realized it was Shostakovich quartets and not my illness doing me in. I stopped and suddenly felt so much better. Now I hold the quartets in mighty respect!
With his countrymen dying by the 10's of millions and Stalin as powerful and deadly as ever, Shostakovich was unwilling to write an "everything is awesome" symphony in response to the victory at Stalingrad. But after he darkly sets the horrors of Russia's experience to music, the quiet ending moves to major key. It seems to me the last few minutes of the 8th are meant to portray a glimmer of hope for the future - a flower blooming among the graves and ruins of war. I find it the most astoundingly moving and powerful finale in symphonic literature.
Dave, I love your very informed reviews. I am an on again off again classical/opera listener, but you have inspired me to be a fanatic. Question: what do you listen to all these wonderful recordings on? Stereo, headphones?
You didn't mention the Caetani SACD recording , though you praised it in your review. Has you opinion on it changed ? I have tried many recordings and to me none match the blistering performances of Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky, despite the poor sound. I have tried but failed at finding something with similar intensity but better sound.
I wonder, if the 8th was written closely to His music for the movie Hamlet- masterpiece of Kozintsev, its themes are very similar. Also I think, conducting of the 8th is the best by Kondrashin, he worked with Shostakovich on it, and that makes all the difference. Mravinsky’s conducting, I agree, is not the best but not only in recording quality, but also in his style. At the end of his conducting life ( late 60s till his death) he was tyrannical, rigid, washed up maestro- there was very little left of his engaging style. I heard his orchestra members complaining of Drudgery, disinterest in playing under Mravinsky. And regulars to the Great Philharmonic Hall could tell the difference in his conducting.
What are unique education we get with Dave. So enriching. I haven’t heard most of these but I love love love the Haitink and the most recent Sanderling is excellent. Looking forward to Rostropovich and the earlier Sanderling.
I'm curious about Kondrashin; my "imprint" version of Shosta #8 (from summer, 1967) was a Russian MK version (the old flat red box) with the "Moscow State Philharmonic Orchestra"; I was never quite sure if this was the same performance issued subsequently on various other labels as the Moscow Symphony or Moscow Philharmonic. In any case,the old MK performance is indeed gritty, intense, shrill and totally explosive. I'd love to replace the ancient LPs with a good CD..but I want to be sure it's the SAME performance. Can you advise? Thanks. Also, I'll have to sample some of your first choices; I know Jarvi and Previn/LSO (#1), which I think is fabulous. Just as in his LSO Prokofiev 5th, Previn seems to "get" the finale in the Shosta 8th, with a combination of "gravitas" and lyrical sadness that I find very convincing..much more so than so many other conductors who seem to think it's basically jolly, impudent stuff. LR
I believe those Kondrashins are all the same, but you never know, unfortunately, with those licensed Melodiyas. We badly need a new "official" release of the entire cycle, remastered at a decent price. Fat chance of that.
Have you done a chat on the op. 27 preludes and fugues? Levit just dropped a recording that I find very disappointing compared to what's out there, and I think there are enough fabulous and diverse recordings to have a good chat about! I think it's an underrated masterpiece.
Which are Shostakovich's greatest symphonies? I would say 8 and 14, and probably 4. Previn's EMI recording of 8 has always been a front runner, as much for the recording as the performance - the Eb Clarinet memorably present in the climaxes. Previn always brings out the sarcasm and humour too. Haitink's 8 grips from first note to last, as you say, the Concertgebouw cover themselves in glory.
I'll happily endure shite Soviet sound for Kondrashin. There simply is not a more intense version of the 8th anywhere by anyone. You'll need painkillers and a massage when it's over. (And I mean that in a good way!)
Hi Dave! Since you never mentioned him in your comments about Shostakovich symphonies, I guess Noseda with LSO isn’t worth hearing, right? Best regards
Great talk, as usual! My first choice has always been Haitink and he takes under 9 minutes for the Largo. I also think his 6th and 12th are terrific. My second choice for the 8th is Previn’s EMI. His Largo lasts over 11 minutes. Both are wonderful and good to have contrasting interpretations.
Yes indeed! And, relating to what Dave said about the matter, it was actually the 9th that was written in the aftermath of that war, and hugely disappointed Stalin and his apparatchiks, who expected a big, triumphant, patriotic musical celebration, being given, instead, a short, perky, faux neo-classical work, ending with a smack-in-your-face parody of a triumphal military parade, bordering on sheer chutzpah.
@@im2801ok It really does make one think about just how brave Shostakovich was, through his music. Having pulled the plug on his 4th for fear of meeting the same fate as so many of his very gifted artistic friends and colleagues, I've often thought of his 9th as being his own way of giving Stalin the middle finger, given that he was surely expected to write something grandiose to mark victory against the Nazis, as you suggest. The 9th just drips with sarcasm and irony, perhaps he was steeled by the fact that, by then, his reputation Worldwide (esp after the popularity of the 5th and 7th Symphonies) offered him a certain amount of cover. Even more daring considering that, almost as soon as the war was over, Stalin was planning yet more widespread purges.
I know this channel isn't primarily about music history, but when you used (understandably) the word Toccata so often in this video, it made me wonder if you might do a video looking at toccatas from Froberger (et al) through.....you would know where to end better than I. Too broad a topic? Too unfocused? Yeah, maybe. Just throwing it out there.
Hi！ Dave, what's the proper spelling of 'pasacalia' you've talked about for the 4th movement, I'd very much like to study it after watched your interesting discribtion, but I only found "Pasaccalia'' online, which is a baroque dance, it didn't seem match what you've discribed. Thanks!
It's Passacaglia in the usual Italian spelling, and it IS a baroque dance (in slow triple time, originating in Spain, meaning literally "to go through the street," for some reason). In its symphonic incarnations it has lost much of its dancelike character, but the musical structure remains the same: a series of variations over a "ground bass," or a repeated bass line. In the baroque period some of these bass lines were so standardized that their themes had their own names. The most famous early example is Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor for organ. It is also interchangeable with the French Chaconne.
Question: 1st movement 7 bars before cue 35---does the music coalesce into a deliberate quotation from Tchaikovsky's Manfred?? It sure sounds like it, scoring and all, whatever it may mean. Bu not inappropriate. I'd say.
Great discussion. The handling of the passacaglia technique was, as you said, a particular strength of Shostakovich. You should do a similar analysis of his first violin concerto where the third movement is based on a 17 bar pattern. The genius is that the whole movement doesn't seem bound to or limited by the form.
Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony was written in 1943 and premiered that same year. Thus, it did not appear in "the immediate aftermath of World War II" and therefore could not have been intended to "celebrate the Soviet victory" since the war continued for almost another two years. Otherwise your commentary is quite good as are most of your videos.
Dave, we all love you and think you're the best, but I have to respectfully disagree with an item in one of your comment replies about unavailable recordings and why you won't review them (eg in this case Michael Sanderling's Shostakovich cycle). I'd like to have your reviews even if I can't get ahold of a recording at present (and this happens with many of your reviews--more than you think--for example, try purchasing Vegh's Mozart 40-41 cd--not really possible, apparently). I believe it's up to the collector to facilitate procurement of the recording in question. This can depend on: 1. how much the purchaser is willing to pay 2. how far afield one is willing to look: overseas sources, cutout sources (like Berkshire records), used sources like ebay, 3. pay or free streaming sources 4. used disk stores or garage/lawn sales or 5. be willing to wait a while: amazing what can resurface after a time. best wishes as always to you
I don't disagree with you, but I won't prioritize something I know is unavailable unless I think it's absolutely unique in some way. I have so much to talk about!
Up to my knowledge, calling it "Stalingrad Symphony" was never approved by the composer - it was arranged by the propaganda to make its abstract music somehow understandable to the audience (but not successfully)
@@DavesClassicalGuide Many thanks. My only reservation is the relatively slow tempo for the outer sections of the Toccata. (I love the Previn/LSO tempo there) but elsewhere I found much to enjoy as indeed you did too. It's a wonderful work.
I like the Rostropovich recording, except the fast movement is just too slow for me. BTW, I admire Rostro's Prokofiev cycle. It's probably no one's reference set, but it's very solid, individual and enjoyable, with no misfires that I recall.
@@DavesClassicalGuide good to know. I only gave the Rostropovich cycle a quick listen when I first became a Shostakovich obsessive in earnest. I’ll give it another, more careful study.
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I was present for the Janson recording of Shostakovich 8 in Pittsburgh. It was shortly after 9/11, and it’s the most incredible live orchestral experience I’ve ever had.
I appreciate that your discussions of these symphonies center around MUSIC. It’s so hard to find anything about Shostakovich that isn’t biography and history. That’s why I enjoy this series in particular. Thank you Dave!
My pleasure!
Yes! I also find it so frustrating to not find a lot of content about Shostakovich focusing on the music
After all these years, the Kondrashin version is still the most biting and gripping. I first heard it when in senior high school 40 years ago. We were studying Orwell’s 1984 at the time. The snare drum section about 7 minutes in, was the perfect soundtrack for the Two Minutes Hate
Your talk made me listen to Sanderling's Berlin SO version, here at TH-cam - with the scrolling score, I love that. Gripping performance, grim indeed (I never heard the great "crash" at the beginning of the 4th movement more convincingly devastating - that prominent tam-tam!)
Following the music with the score made me realize too how much Shostakovich' textures in this symphony resemble his string quartet writing - in fact I think it's his first symphony where some of the fingerprints of his "late", sparse chamber music style are already present. A forward looking piece, maybe it isn't a coincidence that it shares its main key with both the 4th symphony and the 8th quartet.
And again, good to hear some well deserved praise for Rostropovich again. I always loved his Teldec cycle, more than some other ones that got rave reviews in the press.
Dave, this presentation is a primer on how to listen to ANY piecs of good classical music. Thank you!
The first time I have ever heard this symphony was with Rostropovich and the Schleswig-Holstein Musikfestival-Orchestra in my hometown Kiel. It was a great experience. In the first half of the concert, Kissin played Mozart 27. Greetings from Northern Germany
I performed Shostakovich 8th with Andrew Litton here in Honolulu back in 1990 and thought he was fantastic. He later recorded it with the Dallas Symphony Orchestra for Delos.
This is the kind of stuff Litton just triumphs with.
Yes to Haitink and RCO. Anyone who doesn't "get" this work needs to hear this recording.
The Passacaglia is extraordinary. I was lucky enough to see Haitink conduct the Eighth at the Proms in the Albert Hall 5 September 1983 with the Concertgebouw. He was recording it with them, although it wasn't released until 1984 I think.
Many thanks, as always, David.
Solti's Decca recording with the Chicago Symphony is one particularly dear to me: quite powerful yet gripping. I think serious collectors should definitely check it out.
I don't. I find it to be surprisingly lacking in tension, especially at the climaxes, and the sonics are nothing special either. Sorry.
Thank you Mr. Hurwitz, I enjoy your videos so much!!! Thanks a lot
Thank you for this musictalk (and all the others ❤️). You always find the way to talk about the music, what it is, and the composers work and intensions.
Elsewhere the talks is about WW2, Stalin and such guys. I took out my records, and read the linernotes, and Shosta and his music is not the importen thing. One exception is the Sanderling, who of course tells great about the music and the composer. So do you Mr. Hurwitz, you set the music free again, thanks. 🎶
Such a great piece! I remember when the Previn EMI came out and I've loved it since then. Shostakovich is often beautiful...yes! There's a string passage near the end of the Tenth Symphony with that quality you describe here in the Eighth. I have a live recording by Bělohlávek of Shostakovich 8 that blows my mind. The sound is quite good, but I wish he had recorded the work in the studio. Thanks for all your recommendations on this great work.
I imprinted on the Haitink, so didn't do so badly in that regard apparently! The playing and interpretation still strike me as near as damnit perfect - I also think amongst the darkness Haitink finds sardonic humour (there's a kind of Kablevesky parody in the third movement, a vulgar trumpet tune blasting gloriously away which is hilarious - it's as though Shostakovich is thumbing a nose at a May day parade - brilliant!)
It was always because of this that I found his Viola sonata profound in a disturbing yet beautiful way. It dies into infinity, along with Shostakovich, you can hear the viola ring on until you make the conscious decision to let shostakovich go and allow him to rest on for the rest of infinity. Its as peaceful as it is terrifying in regards of death
I’ve always thought this symphony was so gripping,… now I know why
Thank you very much for these videos! Fascinating analysis and great recommendations, much appreciated.
Glad you like them!
Your level of engagement with Shostakovich 8 -- its structure and the many fine recordings of it -- is for me the most moving video you have done. As usual I find your recommendations well argued and, in addition to the Levi and Kitayenko recordings I have, I will seek out at least one performance of your top three (Jarvi, Haitink, Rostropovich, and maybe Sanderling). For me, among his symphonies, this acorn was a particularly hard one to crack. Now it is the most rewarding, closely followed by 4 and 13. Only after a concert performance of the St Petersburg (ex-Leningrad) Philharmonic conducted by Rostropovich in the summer of 1996 in St. Petersburg, did I wake up to the tragic magnificence of this musical canvas. Living in St. Petersburg for two years convinced me that 8 more than 7 (or 11) is Shostakovich's true eulogy to Leningrad. As you point out, the last movement speaks of a brief if fragile moment of hope and respite after the nightmare and hideous devastation of the 872 day siege, 1941 to 1944. Maybe all will be able to go on as before. Shostakovich seems to affirm hope, but not at the expense of memory to go unacknowledged and unhallowed. Symphony 13 eventually provided that opportunity.
Brilliant analysis! Thank you! I appreciate the Previn, Slatkin and Jansons/Pittsburgh Symphony references. In particular, I feel that Previn & Slatkin are not given their due in the recording world. My favorite bits: "fluttering, flowing flutes" and "maybe I don't know what I'm talking about!" Lol! You definitely know what you are talking about (that's why I subscribe) and I appreciate that you share your knowledge. When I hear your talks, I feel like I'm back in one of the happiest places in my memory: the couple of music courses that I so enjoyed at CCNY! Thanks!
I was living in Los Angeles in the late 80's and early 90's when the LA Phil had a romance with Sanderling, which was amazing as he was so not Hollywood glamor. I heard him do the 8th in March 1991at the Dorothy Chandler. He elicited the most devastating climaxes I ever heard in a live concert. I remember seeing this man, who looked like an East bloc gerontocratic apparatchik or Henry Kissinger, with his arms stretched out, just allowing the orchestra to be as loud as possible at the unraveling of the first movement. I never heard symphony music so violently loud before or since.
The L.A. orchestra loved Sanderling. Unfortunately cold war politics prevented him accepting a permanent post with Western orchestras. I envy you in getting the opportunity to see him live. I did see Kondrashin conducting Ein Heldenleben with the L.A. wonderful off stage trumpets!
Thank you for a wonderful analysis of the symphony’s structure, Dave. The 8th is a case of musical architecture perfectly constructed to bring out the desired emotions. I’d happily listen to any of the worthy recordings you list. The 8th in the new Wigglesworth box really nails all the varied moods the work has to offer. Slatkin is wonderfully, organically exiting too, much like his 4th. Oh how I wish Slatkin had recoded a full Shostakovich cycle! However, my personal HOWEVER is a tie between the well-gauged interpretations of Previn and Jarvi. I think I’ve only heard the Rostropovich once and it didn’t particularly stand out in the crowd for me, so time to give it another go and keep on listening!
Imprinted on the Previn! Great talk sir!
Yes 😏
The fastest 1. mov. Is Caetani (20:45!)
Yes, he's extremely zippy!
@@danieldroppa3170 I rather like Caetani’s 8th. Overall a surprisingly strong cycle. I didn’t recall Symph 8 Movement 1 was so fast but it certainly doesn’t feel rushed.
Such a good and cool explanation, I’m subscribing
I often listen to the last movement. It's like the last movement of the fifth string quartet. There seems a real kinship in these works.
I watched this video and just the next day I found by chance a (by no means easy to find) vinyl with Haitink's performance in an old record store here in Madrid. Absolutely stunning performance!
Glad you had a lucky strike!
I was definitely surprised about your "However" here. You comments about the Haitink reminded me of something I read in one of my music books (and I'm paraphrasing): "Shostakovich had strength where his contemporaries lacked: he had the gift of melody." You probably won't like my usual line about Mravinsky: "Mravinsky out-Szell's George Szell" (ducking)
what a monster of a work- i remember getting Mravinsky & the Leningrad - and playing it for my boss at the time drinking bourbon- he wasn't a Shostakovich or a classical fan- until! it finished- especially the big trombones! great video David!
'I just love talking about geniuses; they make my job so easy'.
'Maybe I dont know what I'm talking about; there's always that possibility...'
Haitink's performance rocks... what a recording. What an orchestra!
Another great video Dave, Thanks! I'm glad I watched this video. I am always truly marveled by this work and as always you have enlighten me even more.
Thank you.
A few random thoughts on my experiences of Shostakovich 8 recordings: 1) I was at the concert of Jansons performing this in Pittsburgh, that was recorded. And (to me) it was like so much else he did there: just a shade too dull to appreciate. Really frustrating. 2) Which is kinda how I experience Petrenko too. I'm just missing whatever it is that others get out of those recordings. 3) On the other hand, once I start listening to Kondrashin, all worries about the sound quickly disappear as I'm so engaged with the music. 4) Järvi and Sanderling would round out my top three.
Rozhdestvensky's version is well worth hearing, sound notwithstanding. We need a box set of his Shostakovich symphonies with a decent remastering that stays in print for more than 5 minutes. Idem for Kondrashin's set. Wishful thinking aside, many thanks for a fascinating talk. Made me listen again with "fresh ears"!
You are so right. Melodiya seems to be doing its own stuff now, but quality is iffy, the catalogue random, and the price excessive.
Rozhdestvenksy's 8th is my favorite and maybe my favorite recording of any Shostakovich symphony. For me, It has the intensity required for what I imagine he was going for in this symphony. Especially the 3rd movement. The sound is not good but the interpretation and performance make up for that.
I'd never heard the symphony until I attended a performance by Slatkin and the Chicago Symphony (it must have been in 1982). The "Band" was in peak form and the experience was shattering. I taped the WFMT broadcast and (despite the sonics), listened to it until I switched to CDs (then it was Haitink). WFMT or the symphony must have a tape somewhere they could remaster.
I also heard the Jansons/Pittsburgh performance live. It was the woodwinds that struck me most during that performance.
Dear Dr. Dave, back in a decade long ago, I majored in something we called music literature. I looked forward to every class with my major professor and what he did was similar to what you have done here: a gripping discussion of the techniques employed followed by a listen through the versions we had available in the school’s library. His sense of humor was so subtle that it often flew over everyone’s head. I appreciate the fact that 85% of your humor, while quite intelligent, is also readily accessible.
I do wish you had mentioned the 8th quartet and, perhaps a more obscure collection, the film Fandango. Nonetheless, I am absolutely head over heels about your website and am not embarrassed to tell you I am about 15%-20% of my way through everything you have done and I can only hope you start moving more quickly so I can delay running out of the great enjoyment of learning from you.
Thanks very much. I've got to work on that other 15%!
Great and so helpful a talk on the work, making it easier to appreciate and grasp. Thanks! I listened to the Rostropovich/Washington disc, it's excellent. Another I have that I felt is terrific is Gergiev/Marinsky on Philips, recorded in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw in '94. The sometimes boring Gergiev sounds very involved, as do the excellent players, he doesn't get fussy with the piece, and the climaxes are thunderous. Really good sound too. I know, I know, it's Gergiev. Everyone's milage may vary. I find it communicates powerfully to me.
Fair enough!
I love Haitink too for this Symphony.
BTW, I have just subscribed……..your channel is wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful, wonderful……..
Many thanks!
I completely agree about that Rostropovich NSO recording, it’s my favorite too (also by pure chance the first version I ever heard), and the #1 reason is that absolutely perfect tempo for the Toccata.
A monsterpiece! As for the tick tock, isn't the end of the 15th symphony reminiscent of a toyshop as well as a clock? It would be musically and thematically justified. I hope you do a video on the 15th, anyway. Thanks for the helpful musicology.
I liked your comment about huge works often being relatively simple. It made me think of Brian’s powerful Gothic Symphony-part of the reason it’s so difficult to follow is probably because it lacks that simplicity. He tosses idea after idea at you!
In the finale I feel something even sadder - Shostakovich was overwhelmed by thoughts of impact of Stalinism and war. He dreamed of being resistant to them - that is I think his “message” - although the catastrophe of the first movement returned in the middle, all three “pastoral” themes survived, even though now they are all played by solos (and you know what happened to other players). But we remain untouched and feel somehow free of ourselves.
That’s a really interesting way of looking at it that I hadn’t thought of! After the climax of the fifth movement, the melodies are all the same, but it’s much more subdued, despite still having somewhat of a light and “joyful” tone. Maybe something along the lines of a community being completely and utterly broken, yet alive. Though the battle is over, the pieces are still slowly being picked up. Wow, my entire thought process on the end of this piece has completely changed.
After hearing Shostakovich's Eight, Rostropovich give up to compose music. He think he would never compose a so great piece like this.
many thanks, can't wait until you get to the 5th which is my favorite music of all. this is my joint second favorite Shostakovich Symphony together with the 4th. Am enjoying your videos very much and you open minded approach.
I know that documentary that you referenced in the video! It was called Soldiers of Music. It was excellent. I remember watching it as a kid and it was the first time I heard the 8th (they were playing the third mob in the doc). I went out and immediately bought the 8th after watching that doc.
Waiting for one on no.5 as well :)
Hooray! I've got to know the 8th through your wonderful 'however' choice, Rostropovich. So glad we agree. I've got other recordings, Previn and Mavrinsky, but this is the one I go back to. Have you heard how the orchestra actually seems to cry, in the first movement? I've never heard such a thing before. What a ride the whole thing is.
Would you also consider doing a talk on Shostakovich's String Quartets? Many of these pieces are so emotionally devastating, so that I want to know, which version would make me want to kill myself.
All of them do the job.
I was bed ridden due to an illness and to pass the time decided to read Wendy Lesser’s study of the string quartets and listen to them as the same time. Educate myself I thought! But I felt worst and worst each day until i realized it was Shostakovich quartets and not my illness doing me in. I stopped and suddenly felt so much better. Now I hold the quartets in mighty respect!
With his countrymen dying by the 10's of millions and Stalin as powerful and deadly as ever, Shostakovich was unwilling to write an "everything is awesome" symphony in response to the victory at Stalingrad. But after he darkly sets the horrors of Russia's experience to music, the quiet ending moves to major key. It seems to me the last few minutes of the 8th are meant to portray a glimmer of hope for the future - a flower blooming among the graves and ruins of war. I find it the most astoundingly moving and powerful finale in symphonic literature.
Dave, I love your very informed reviews. I am an on again off again classical/opera listener, but you have inspired me to be a fanatic. Question: what do you listen to all these wonderful recordings on? Stereo, headphones?
Everything! It doesn't really matter to me. Whatever sounds best at the time.
You didn't mention the Caetani SACD recording , though you praised it in your review. Has you opinion on it changed ? I have tried many recordings and to me none match the blistering performances of Kondrashin and Rozhdestvensky, despite the poor sound. I have tried but failed at finding something with similar intensity but better sound.
Really surprised that Solti's recording of the Eighth with the Chicago Symphony isn't included in this group . . .
It's nothing special. That's why it's not included.
Could you think of the original idea as the three-note motive and the chromatic scale along which the motive develops?
I wonder, if the 8th was written closely to His music for the movie Hamlet- masterpiece of Kozintsev, its themes are very similar.
Also I think, conducting of the 8th is the best by Kondrashin, he worked with Shostakovich on it, and that makes all the difference. Mravinsky’s conducting, I agree, is not the best but not only in recording quality, but also in his style. At the end of his conducting life ( late 60s till his death) he was tyrannical, rigid, washed up maestro- there was very little left of his engaging style. I heard his orchestra members complaining of Drudgery, disinterest in playing under Mravinsky. And regulars to the Great Philharmonic Hall could tell the difference in his conducting.
What are unique education we get with Dave. So enriching. I haven’t heard most of these but I love love love the Haitink and the most recent Sanderling is excellent. Looking forward to Rostropovich and the earlier Sanderling.
Are there any other war symphonies that you recommend similar to Shosty's 8th ? Perhaps you can do a video on war themed symphonies and works.
I'm curious about Kondrashin; my "imprint" version of Shosta #8 (from summer, 1967) was a Russian MK version (the old flat red box) with the "Moscow State Philharmonic Orchestra"; I was never quite sure if this was the same performance issued subsequently on various other labels as the Moscow Symphony or Moscow Philharmonic. In any case,the old MK performance is indeed gritty, intense, shrill and totally explosive. I'd love to replace the ancient LPs with a good CD..but I want to be sure it's the SAME performance. Can you advise? Thanks.
Also, I'll have to sample some of your first choices; I know Jarvi and Previn/LSO (#1), which I think is fabulous. Just as in his LSO Prokofiev 5th, Previn seems to "get" the finale in the Shosta 8th, with a combination of "gravitas" and lyrical sadness that I find very convincing..much more so than so many other conductors who seem to think it's basically jolly, impudent stuff. LR
I believe those Kondrashins are all the same, but you never know, unfortunately, with those licensed Melodiyas. We badly need a new "official" release of the entire cycle, remastered at a decent price. Fat chance of that.
Have you done a chat on the op. 27 preludes and fugues? Levit just dropped a recording that I find very disappointing compared to what's out there, and I think there are enough fabulous and diverse recordings to have a good chat about! I think it's an underrated masterpiece.
If you mean Op. 87, then yes. Op. 27 is the ballet "The Bolt."
@@DavesClassicalGuide ooh yes just a typo! Op. 87. Thanks Dave, I'll look it up!
Which are Shostakovich's greatest symphonies? I would say 8 and 14, and probably 4. Previn's EMI recording of 8 has always been a front runner, as much for the recording as the performance - the Eb Clarinet memorably present in the climaxes. Previn always brings out the sarcasm and humour too. Haitink's 8 grips from first note to last, as you say, the Concertgebouw cover themselves in glory.
I'll happily endure shite Soviet sound for Kondrashin. There simply is not a more intense version of the 8th anywhere by anyone. You'll need painkillers and a massage when it's over. (And I mean that in a good way!)
Hi Dave! Since you never mentioned him in your comments about Shostakovich symphonies, I guess Noseda with LSO isn’t worth hearing, right? Best regards
Check out my reviews at ClassicsToday.com.
What about Solti with Chicago?
What about it?
Good first movement and downhill from there. The last movement is so bad I wondered if they’d messed up the recording somehow.
I find this symphony a torment. I have the Rudolph Barshai box with the WDR symphony. Also not bad.
It was written during WWII in the Summer of '43, not in its aftermath. It was even heard before the end of that year premiered by Mravinsky.
Yes, of course you're correct. Same war, though. At least I got that right.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Haha, sorry for the pedantry. Brilliant video Mr Hurwitz, as so many of yours are, love' em.
Great talk, as usual! My first choice has always been Haitink and he takes under 9 minutes for the Largo. I also think his 6th and 12th are terrific. My second choice for the 8th is Previn’s EMI. His Largo lasts over 11 minutes. Both are wonderful and good to have contrasting interpretations.
Yes indeed! And, relating to what Dave said about the matter, it was actually the 9th that was written in the aftermath of that war, and hugely disappointed Stalin and his apparatchiks, who expected a big, triumphant, patriotic musical celebration, being given, instead, a short, perky, faux neo-classical work, ending with a smack-in-your-face parody of a triumphal military parade, bordering on sheer chutzpah.
@@im2801ok It really does make one think about just how brave Shostakovich was, through his music. Having pulled the plug on his 4th for fear of meeting the same fate as so many of his very gifted artistic friends and colleagues, I've often thought of his 9th as being his own way of giving Stalin the middle finger, given that he was surely expected to write something grandiose to mark victory against the Nazis, as you suggest. The 9th just drips with sarcasm and irony, perhaps he was steeled by the fact that, by then, his reputation Worldwide (esp after the popularity of the 5th and 7th Symphonies) offered him a certain amount of cover. Even more daring considering that, almost as soon as the war was over, Stalin was planning yet more widespread purges.
I know this channel isn't primarily about music history, but when you used (understandably) the word Toccata so often in this video, it made me wonder if you might do a video looking at toccatas from Froberger (et al) through.....you would know where to end better than I. Too broad a topic? Too unfocused? Yeah, maybe. Just throwing it out there.
A good idea.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Just gotta toccata
Hi！ Dave, what's the proper spelling of 'pasacalia' you've talked about for the 4th movement, I'd very much like to study it after watched your interesting discribtion, but I only found "Pasaccalia'' online, which is a baroque dance, it didn't seem match what you've discribed.
Thanks!
It's Passacaglia in the usual Italian spelling, and it IS a baroque dance (in slow triple time, originating in Spain, meaning literally "to go through the street," for some reason). In its symphonic incarnations it has lost much of its dancelike character, but the musical structure remains the same: a series of variations over a "ground bass," or a repeated bass line. In the baroque period some of these bass lines were so standardized that their themes had their own names. The most famous early example is Bach's Passacaglia and Fugue in C minor for organ. It is also interchangeable with the French Chaconne.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thank you so much! Dave, it is clear and so understanderbale. have a great rest of the day, Thanks again !
Question: 1st movement 7 bars before cue 35---does the music coalesce into a deliberate quotation from Tchaikovsky's Manfred?? It sure sounds like it, scoring and all, whatever it may mean. Bu not inappropriate. I'd say.
I don't think so.
@@DavesClassicalGuide Thanks.
Great discussion. The handling of the passacaglia technique was, as you said, a particular strength of Shostakovich. You should do a similar analysis of his first violin concerto where the third movement is based on a 17 bar pattern. The genius is that the whole movement doesn't seem bound to or limited by the form.
the 2nd and 3rd movements scare the living crap out of me; Stalin incarnate.
Shostakovich's Eighth Symphony was written in 1943 and premiered that same year. Thus, it did not appear in "the immediate aftermath of World War II" and therefore could not have been intended to "celebrate the Soviet victory" since the war continued for almost another two years. Otherwise your commentary is quite good as are most of your videos.
Dave, we all love you and think you're the best, but I have to respectfully disagree with an item in one of your comment replies about unavailable recordings and why you won't review them (eg in this case Michael Sanderling's Shostakovich cycle). I'd like to have your reviews even if I can't get ahold of a recording at present (and this happens with many of your reviews--more than you think--for example, try purchasing Vegh's Mozart 40-41 cd--not really possible, apparently). I believe it's up to the collector to facilitate procurement of the recording in question. This can depend on: 1. how much the purchaser is willing to pay 2. how far afield one is willing to look: overseas sources, cutout sources (like Berkshire records), used sources like ebay, 3. pay or free streaming sources 4. used disk stores or garage/lawn sales or 5. be willing to wait a while: amazing what can resurface after a time. best wishes as always to you
I don't disagree with you, but I won't prioritize something I know is unavailable unless I think it's absolutely unique in some way. I have so much to talk about!
@@DavesClassicalGuide Good point!
Rostropovich did the 8th with LSO -you did not mention it specifically
No I didn't mention it. It sucked. www.classicstoday.com/review/review-11884/?search=1
Didn't this use to be called the Stalingrad Symphony?
I have no idea.
Yes, the symphony was given that nickname in the USSR relatively early in its "career".
According to Wikipedia it does, probably to mirror the 7th, whose nickname "Leningrad", as we all know, is still popularly used today
Up to my knowledge, calling it "Stalingrad Symphony" was never approved by the composer - it was arranged by the propaganda to make its abstract music somehow understandable to the audience (but not successfully)
@@ftumschk Yuck.
I assume you don't care for the Berglund on PentaTone?
Check out reviews on ClassicsToday.com before making any assumptions. www.classicstoday.com/review/review-12945/?search=1
@@DavesClassicalGuide Many thanks. My only reservation is the relatively slow tempo for the outer sections of the Toccata. (I love the Previn/LSO tempo there) but elsewhere I found much to enjoy as indeed you did too. It's a wonderful work.
I like the Rostropovich recording, except the fast movement is just too slow for me. BTW, I admire Rostro's Prokofiev cycle. It's probably no one's reference set, but it's very solid, individual and enjoyable, with no misfires that I recall.
I absolutely love Rostropovich’s Prokofiev cycle.
The Sixth isn't so hot, but the rest is very good.
@@DavesClassicalGuide good to know. I only gave the Rostropovich cycle a quick listen when I first became a Shostakovich obsessive in earnest. I’ll give it another, more careful study.