The Finite and Infinite Games of Leadership | Simon Sinek | Talks at Google
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 19 พ.ค. 2024
- The Finite and Infinite Games of Leadership:
Leadership, Business and Finding Purpose in the Workplace.
Simon Sinek is the bestselling author of Start With Why and Leaders Eat Last, which have helped organizations around the world inspire their people to reach new heights.
Visit www.startwithwhy.com/ with more information on Simon.
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When a leader creates an environment where everyone has each others' backs, all are committed to each other, trust each other, and feel safest. Great leaders create this and they do not use their people to balance the books.
24:47
After watching this I realized that the same concepts exist in marriage. My wife tends to focuses on the vision of the future and the values we hold as a family. I tend to focus on the operational aspect of keeping the household afloat making sure we are viable.
If I believe her vision and values are starting to impact the ability to keep it the household afloat I tend to migrate more and more into the operational aspect of running the house, and that in turn pushes her to focus on the vision and values of the household.
Since we don't have a board of directors we don't have someone pushing one way or the other so it stays balanced between us-- each helping to keep the other in check most of the time. But in a company often the balance between these two positions is upset due to external influences or pressures.
Great comment!
lol, true
"We don't trust people to follow the rules. We trust people to know when to break them."
thats nature we are a copy of nature, break the rules is caos, caos is nature itself you should never trust another copy of you.
Very nicely put.
The most insightful of 'The mind of Simon Sinek'.
I love this more than any other speak I've ever watched.
Brilliant listen....this guy has made talking sense into an art
Simon, You are second to none. Fantastic Presentation.
The Best players win when they keep Focus on the Values, the principles that founded a Union. Discretion is born out of the nobility of Common Sense, how we impact each other, hence what it would mean if we lost our shared values, I like how you said " innovation is born out of struggle " and " Never Sabotage a leader ". Thank you very much.
I needed to hear this today. Thank you
That was a great talk and amazing advice by Simon Sinek.
شكراً جزيلاً أخي سيمون
على كل فكرة...
على كل جرعة أمل...
على كل شيئ...
و إلى كل متطلع إلى الحكمة
( خذ ما صفا و دع ما تكدر )
What I enjoy most about Sinek is that he is intellectually strong and very observant, but doesn't seem to need to have intellectuals appreciate him as others would. Find it sad that some of us, (in the peanut gallery, like myself, who benefit from his learnings, observations and how he connects them into concepts that benefit so many) have to find reasons to nitpick his ideas, pan him for not giving appropriate enough credit (or credit to the measure, we in the audience think he should have) or criticize how he draws us back to a previous concept (as though it's a mistake to draw us back to something so many found to have value), etc. Very sad indeed - as if being an "armchair critic" makes us valid (or more valid than anyone else who views one of these messages.) Those who pan this and other "think differently" concepts just show their own issues with "whatever." Kudos to Simon...and thanks for being so observant, such a willing learner and articulate enough to share what you've learned/observed with the rest of us.
Great content, makes sense. I'll call it a game when more people are having fun.
Thank you, Simon Sinek well thought out insightful
James Carse. finite and infinite games (a vision of life as play and possibility). A book I recommend from a philosophical and poetic point of view. Beautiful book
Thank you Simon SINEK!
Holy crap...it is like I am hearing myself speak. I've been preaching this for years, and getting slammed by peers for not playing the "beat x" game.
Fascinating, it seems Finite and Infinite games of leadership are similar to living a life in effect or cause. In regards to the last question he asked, I found it refreshing that he voiced his discomfort of his work in progress thesis, that in playing with an Infinite Player the existent of an adverseary may be required [this got me thinking...]. I could say, it seems in an environment where there are majority of Infinite players, these players see each other as 'Complimenrary Adversiaries' for the existence of an Industry as a platform to express themselves. Where they see each others existence as a challenge to be better [than who they were yesterday] though they do not have to like each other, an underlying respect exists and expands the industry dance floor, like of the time of Bill Gates (PC on everydesktop) and Steve Jobs (make great products). There were numerous times these two would phone called each other and congratulated each others succeses as moving the industry forward. In the Finite environment Oppositional Adversiaries exist and are focused on the taking down of each others existence. These games both work and exist, I guess, it is just a choice of what game I wish too play, from here. What do you say?
Young companies and young people have nothing to loose. So, they dream big. Big companies like older people built something and accumulated responsibility. They are afraid to loose what they have. The truth is that as we grow old/big our vision shrinks. It is safer.
Thank a lot sir, this was very helpful....
After I watched the video, I thought about the term "executive" for a while, Googled it and I discover something I was totally ignoring.... I'm not the CEO at our Startup.... I don't execute, the whole Team does.... And first thing I did was to replace The "E" with a "V".... It's weird... But true.... CVO is the right designation.....
We're talking about the meaning of life stuff. And I believe Simon is heading towards the right direction with a 'Infinite vs finite' perceptions of reality. I can only speculate where a infinite/finite universe, or game, will take us.
And to point out, very few companies are built upon ideas of infinity. Ideas that are somewhere between immensity and eternity. Google for instance is built upon infinity. For example, Googol (10^100) or a Googolplex is number that so big it can't even be written onto a paper or contained in a data center. Keep searching for those infinities...
I was with Simon all the way, but the answer to the last question floored me.
if there is no such thing as a winner why do have to have a Adversary?
eg. the goal is world peace, health and happiness.
you need an adversary to fight for it in an infinite game?
In an infinite game is vs yourself/your own organization and finite game is vs an adversary btw. the wrong about America was it considered itself a WINNER when actually there was non adversary at all, therefore no game, no system and wasted resources. so to answer your eg 'the goal is world peace, health and happiness.' to make it as an infinite game would be: 'how do I fix/improve the place where we live in to get peace, health and happiness'; as a finite game should be 'what do we need to fight with/shout to so we can get peace, health and happiness' that's the wrong game because to get peace you don't have to have an adversary. Last thing, it's 'you need an adversary to fight for it in an FINITE game'
Be amazed Adrian at how effective "this guy" is in stating the obvious!......Could you do it this well?.....food for thought.
I wish the first questioner had been asked what he really means when he says "the small, scrappy company can't afford to miss their numbers..." Small companies might not be able to pay their bills, they might not make rent and get kicked out of their space, but the only reason someone loses a job for "missing numbers" is because of the finite game's arbitrary goals Sinek talks about. The questioner cannot resolve the difference between finite and infinite because his mindset is completely stuck in "finite" -- it's difficult to imagine there is any other way to operate. "Missing numbers" results in "shareholder dissatisfaction" results in "board meetings" and the loss of a job. But the company may have done extremely well! They just "missed their numbers." THIS is what Sinek is arguing against -- the companies who are focused more on their values, that have values well-integrated with their surrounding culture and society, will outlast those who are making up "numbers" that can be "missed."
Yes I think the first question was not adequately answered. The questioner needed to be guided through a mental paradigm shift.
Well explained. Hope the questioner sees this.
At 24 minutes, the gentleman that asked the question is 100% CORRECT. If you're a small company you HAVE to hit said "arbitrary" numbers because that could be the DIFFERENCE between making PAYROLL or not being able to pay your employees...
I understand what Simon is saying but he is certainly "cherry picking". If I miss payroll I'm sure I have GREAT employees that will stay and say "I love working with you and your company" however, you obviously can't CONTINUE to miss payroll... As much as someone loves what they do and loves their company, they also must LIVE which requires TANGIBLE income, i.e. requires to get their paycheck consistently which means I MUST hit "arbitrary" numbers in order to ensure my employees are able to continue working with my company long term.
Furthermore, I clearly understand what Simon is saying, but again all companies aren't publicly traded with shareholders. My point is I run my company in the infinite with my vision, however, I have to, have to, have to play the finite game to SURVIVE, which ALLOWS me to continue to play the infinite game based on my overall vision.
@@ChristoMac Dude, Chill.
Take it as a leadership talk learn from it why you are taking it personally like the questioner lol.
@@c4nt0na You're right, I'm not sure why I got all worked up.
we feel at our best when we trust each other
Great content ,really want to be a leader or want to be lead by a leader who understands this
I don't know if you'll see this or it will help but the Game Theory you describe Simon seems to mirror the mathematical game theory equations of professor John Nash. Basically stating that the "solution" otherwise known as the Nash equilibrium is reached when all players are operating both to maximise their own outcomes as well as maximise the outcomes of the group overall, given the knowledge of all parties are making their best possible decisions. It might be useful to look into his research for your next book.
Do you really think Simon doesn't know about the Nash equilibrium? Do you think the similarities between Simon's work and the Nash equilibrium are just a coincidence? Do you think while studying game theory he never came across John Nash's equation that made Nash famous and won him the Nobel award?
Johnny K It is a good question to wonder if Simon knows Nash or any mathematics. It seems Simon in his on words is interested in game theory. There has been mathematical investigations into universal theory that explains the demise of businesses. I suggest looking into Geoffrey West and the work he and his colleagues have done.
Extremely fascinating.
Excellent talk.
AMAZING talk!!!
If you follow someone, you're always one step behind.
The CEO isn't the visionary. He is the executive to the Board of Directors. As the name implies the Board of Directors is there to set the direction, to have the visions and so on.
The CEO or Executive Director as the position is called in some countries is appointed by the Board of Directors to execute their vision of the company.
NO WORDS TO DISCRIBE HIS VIEWS ABOUT LIFE
Simon Sinek is nice w it!
What a legend
Great talk ...
Love this
An infinite game is played to create and strengthen a sustainable relationship between players ... A finite game is played to win a goal and strengthen the our own players ... An infinite game tends to a Shapely Value .. A finite game tends to a Nash Equilibrium. An infinite game normalizes itself but a finite game ends in an end game scenario
Always enjoyable, and always something to learn. Having worked for many years at Toyota, I realise they have a lot of the characteristics of the infinite company. They have also managed to do what Simon does (or vice versa) take what people think is common sense, and structure it, and apply it in a standardised way so that it really becomes common. My only gripe - was this a men-only event?
Did I miss Sinek mentioning James Carse's 1986 book " Finite and Infinite Game"? The whole talk is based on the premise of Carse's.
Beautiful presentation. Even though it might sounds obvious, it is not. common sense is not that common.
indeed, I see the day to day struggle in a lot of organisations
That is because you are using two definitions of the word common. Common simply means widespread.
Then there is also Boston Common!
I wonder how many people realise they are quoting Voltaire when they use such phrases. "A witty saying proves nothing" - Voltaire, there you go.
Yup
Great talk, good points. But I think he didn't answer the first question from the audience. The audience said that smaller companies can't afford value based decisions because they have to make money and avoid losing money. But Simon answered from the perspective of employees, which is not what the question is about.
Daniel TTY, I believe this is more like a chicken and egg problem. The reason why small companies dont have luxury of playing the infinite game is because they start out aiming at the finite games and trying to look at very short-term goals. And this is the reason why they further struggle. He later mentioned how Dell, Microsoft and Apple were really successful until the Founders left. The visions then turned into short term goals, and the companies' innovation go down.
I wonder if the the CFO and CVO divide maps to the differentiation and integration aspects in psychology... I'd also recommend reading Boyd's "Creation & Destruction" paper.
Interesting talk !
Leadership creates an environment.
Haven't quite figured how to apply this to my non-corporate world.
46:30 Damn right, I saw so many "manager" and so few Leaders.
Global living is infinite gaming. Playing is also working.
I've been watched more than 3 videos with Simon and on all of the videos, he told the story of the Microsoft and Apple)))
Advertising?)
Repetition
Doesn't matter to me, sure I now appreciate the company as an infinite game player, but I have no use for their products, I'm quite happy with Linux and second-hand PC's. Also I understand now that Apple cares not about me not being their customer.
Because he is basing his talks on the themes in his book. The Microsoft vs Apple story is one of the most impactful illustrations used in his book.
245 people are playing the finite game even after wtaching this truth bomb of a talk
so good.
I love Simon Sinek and his philosophy of leadership but his reading of Roman history and the destruction of Carthage is completely inaccurate. He stated that the Roman Empire went into decline after the destruction of Carthage (146 BC), however the ROman empire did not yet exist. What he meant to refer to was the Roman Republic which was beset by civil wars beginning (very roughly, I'm not googling it so I might be off) around 55 BC. The resolution of the civil wars resulted in the Roman Empire under Augustus, The following 200 years were arguably the most prosperous and civilized years in western history until the Industrial Revolution. So yeah, that was long winded but I thought I should correct that error.
MissSandu 53:00
Totally agree. Actually the destruction of Carthage is the milestone for the Roman (Republic) to expand and dominate the whole mediterranean area
He isn't saying don't strive for growth. He is saying go about it ethically and with purpose. He is saying if you prioritize people and values first, then the loyalty of your co workers and customers will naturally follow and you will see growth. The Walmart example shows this perfectly. Originally Walmart was concerned about helping the community live better and providing things that were needed. They made sure to take care of their employees and customers. However they got concerned about the bottom line and cut people and neglect customers which has caused resentment and loss of job opportunity for americans everywhere. Not saying that this broke them by any means, however the values they originally held is a big part of what made them so big. If they had been only concerned about profits, then they probably wouldn't still be around or at least as big as they are. This concept is actually one of the fundamentals that is taught in business school primarily in ethics. The thought process is that the business itself should be formed to meet a need of society to better it, and once it goes for profits only, it becomes toxic to society and can have the opposite effect of what it should be. A good start up should have a business plan and start up capital that can support a value based culture, and the drive from the culture will stimulate growth naturally.
Augustus is not a name, it is a title "Exalted". His name was Octavian and he was Cesar's sister son who Cesar adopted on his sister request. He is wrong but so are you.
big up yourself girl 😀
It is about Stress, PTSD, Paranoia, Fear: that drains all Creativity, Energy, Productivity...Bad Leaders impose pressure and punishment...Bad Leaders reward Slaves Obedience...
Sounds Crazy
“Do What I Say, Because I Said So,
I’m The Bosshole” Sad But True
Great talk! and also agree on the perspective of leadership and management, except one thing, one personal, non-related question shouldn't have been answered, at least in the public. Such as your worst memory in your life or worst business or partner you've dealt with, etc, they are all the signs of attempt to "smell your weak point" personally or in relationship and prepare to find problem on you personally or with your previous "enemy" who you have bad experience with. To all the speakers in the western world, my advice is better not to answer or avoid in public, because it is not relavent to the topic at all. And when a Chinese asks you about China, or to give some advices, no matter in which condition, even thought they "look" humble , the best answer is still not to answer, or always neutral tone. As if you say something too positive, they will exploit you or cast lots of responsibilty or pressure on you, since it is you said it is positive; if too negative, they'll be against you, maybe still with a smile at front. If you're not Chinese, in the art of communication with chinese, it's very hard for you to put the "right amount" they want to hear, (of course not to tell the "real amount"), so better no comment or neutral one.
Oh hell yeah
That first guy asked all the right questions and got no answers. I'd love to hear him speak and his opinions.
dawgyv72 The answer to the first guy’s question lies in security....benefits make us feel secure and safe but lower our appetite for risk. The infinite game (to use Sinek’s language) require us to move beyond the base line of Maslow’s pyramid and work for something beyond security.
its informative
10:55 - "Torture violated our values." - Simon Sinek
Perhaps we don't need adversaries. Perhaps all we need is the knowledge of what that looks like, the world it creates, and the dangers of becoming what the adversary was. Perhaps that knowledge is the ultimate adversary and answer to not having to fight each other (at least in regards to nations, politics, society, racism, etc.).
In 21st Century reality of business finite is limited by capital which start ups generally struggle with. Large corporations have the ability to play the infinite game.
Similarly, with politics the larger countries can play the infinite, while the smaller are finite limited.
I had to play a finite game in an infinite way. Volleyball. As I scored points,the rules changed,some points were not put on the scoreboard or attributed to the other team. The score was always even.
that's probably called cheating!
Regarding the first questioner: Don't confuse "feeling like you belong" and "coushy." Take away Google's benefits. Would the employees stay? Maybe. But more importantly, would the vision and sense of purpose sustain? It's community and vision that makes an infinite approach, not the thick resources and ample benefits.
does anyone else feel completely enlightened?
I believe everything and in everything you just said: a sense of Deja vu-yesterday once more. Talk to me.
Here's my story-
When I founded Ideafarms (www.ideafarms.com) here in India in April 2002, it was because 8 guys showed up at my office (quite a dump it was), and said they wanted to work with me. These were young guys who could have moved to any other job when our division at the erstwhile company was suddenly shut down in response to 9/11. (Context: India doesn't offer any safety nets in terms of social security or unemployment benefits) They were making good money at the time but could ill afford to go without pay for more than a couple of months. But they were adamant on working together to create a company they could call their own. 6 of them didn't have the capacity to invest since they came from lower middle class backgrounds (Average annual income ≤$15K per capita). They insisted that I should lead them and offered to work without pay-they didn't take a single penny till the first revenues came in 4 months down the line. In the next step they agreed to take a pay cut for the whole year till we could get going.
Therefore what you say is absolutely true. This is coming to you first hand. The founding team have all moved on since, to better opportunities, but our relationships, except for one, endure.
PS: The reason they moved out was because they saw me falling out of the infinite game and focusing on the finite. Although that was more oversight on my part, than a conscious move to play the finite one. As a consequence, the company's growth got stymied and we are still in he woods for the last 8 years. Totally agree with you Simon. I've seen and lived both lives. How I wish I could turn the clock back!
one thing I like to do is to take a vision and then take it one step deeper. I like to restate the vision into what does that mean to me and my position. how do I make the the vision a reality. If I cant find a way to have it guide me then I think to myself... how does one do "the vision"
another beautiful stuff
Nice whiteboard notes dude, totally readable.
Eric S he said what he's writing. Might not be readable but you can still listen
Sinks presentation seems to go against SMART GOALS
right on
Great presentation but a tough crowd. However the first guy was a reealist. I work in the construction industry and people dont care about people only getting the project done on time.
"The knowledge of truth as such is wonderful, but it is so little capable of acting as a guide that it cannot prove even the justification and the value of the aspiration toward that very knowledge of truth. Here we face, therefore, the limits of the purely rational conception of our existence." -- Albert Einstein
Game Theory: The Game of WeiQi/Go has almost limitless possibilities and the Objectives change Constantly,
The Game of Chess has much more limited Objective and Possibilities.
The Chinese and Asians already understood Finite and Infinite Games Long ago.
This is good :-)
31:20-32:00 Simon saying "YEAH" over and over 😂😂😂😂
I like how the first question totally assumed that Google is playing in inifinite game. Is it?
At 23 minutes, it's the people we work with, not the stuff you get. Yes. I work for a small institution that values hospitality and humility, not stuff.
An idea: the adversary can be ignorance, which elegantly allows for competition without an actual other.
Straight regurgitatation of Tal Ben Shahar's lectures at Harvard on The Paychology of Leadership
51:08 _(gut feeling)_ 👍 this dude's quite intelligent
Summarizes Sinek’s framework well, succinct question, open hand gestures, responds to audience laughter with ease.
It's like Steve Jobs and Stephen Covey had a baby.
You're right!
Okay, Okay, Okay. I started watching this video expecting to gain new ideas or perspectives from such a talented and eloquent speaker of leadership issues. Don't get me wrong, I am a new fan of Mr. Sinek, (I just discovered his presentations here in TH-cam about one and a half weeks ago. But on this one particularly, in the minute 05:16, I thought, I already know the storyline; about 70% of the Microsoft executives spent about 70% of their time planning and talking about how to beat Apple and in his talk to Apple people, is just the opposite, then about Microsoft giving him a Zune player. He have used the same anecdote at least 5 or six times (different videos) that I can remember.
Hey look, it is Marki Plier. :P
Would i me lynced if i say Marki Plier is the discount Simon Sinek? :D
36:15 I gave orders for my horse to be brought round from the stables. The servant did not understand me. I myself went to the stable, saddled my horse and mounted. In the distance I heard a bugle call, I asked him what this meant. He knew nothing and had heard nothing. At the gate he stopped me, asking: “Where are you riding to, master?”
“I don’t know,” I said, “Only away from here, away from here. Always away from here, only by doing so can I reach my destination.”
“And so you know your destination?" he asked.
“Yes,” I answered, “didn’t I say so? Away-From-Here, that is my destination."
“You have no provisions with you,” he said.
“I need none,” I said, “The journey is so long that I must die of hunger if I don’t get anything on the way. No provisions can save me. For it is, fortunately, a truly immense journey.”
Human innovation in game theory is based on an infinite games where humans will attempt to change the rules of the game over time to optimize and advance and advocate their own self interest....
If we are all leaders, no one would follow. by Mikatu, in Mikatu's talks.
Does he even give credit to the author of the book on this topic? James P. Carse. Probably should credit those whose work he is using in his presentation.
does this have anything to do with the book "finite and infinite games" by James P. Carse?
The talk doesn't mention it. The talk is Simon-style, much less abstract that the book and more story-driven.
It does, that book inspired him to write his own. He said that many times, in other talks and interviews
Hmm...not even a passing credit to author James Carse who published "Finite and Infinite Games" in 1986?
Maybe he doesn't know of that book? I'm not sure if he mentioned the book in the video because , I paused it and came back another day.
Agree! I also think he should remind us that the "WHY" is also nothing new. After all, Nietzsche said "He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how."
I mean, as soon as he mentioned finite vs Infinite, James Carse's book came to mind. Simon is not saying he invented it the concept, but a nod would have been appropriate. Especially considering the mileage he's gotten from the idea already. Let's see if his upcoming book of a similar title will address that.
thank you, im off to check out Carse, cheers! Hate these guys who have a quasi new idea that is a regurgitation of someone elses work.
In another video Simon takes a fair bit of time to give full credit as he explains reading Carse's book was the genesis for his new book & the talks he is now giving on the subject. It's unrealistic the believe he will spend part of every talk giving credit for every idea he presents. Many of the ideas are his though the genesis may have come from others.
I regret to say that but... in most of the cases discussed in this talk, Google could fit well in the Finite player realm.
1:05 / 2:07 / 2:50 / 3:09 / 3:45 / 4:50 / 5:00 / 6:50 / 7:40 / 8:07 / 0:00 + 10:15
Wonder if he's applied this to health care?
the objective is not to bring the soldier home but to win the war. saving private Ryan.
Even the governments play finite games
No I don't agree with some comments here..... Simon is right Rome compromised it's values when Carthage fell. Do any of you consider the emperor's of Rome a good idea, no matter the achievements of that society they did decline Simon's is right!
all finite games are competitive games ..all infinite games are cooperative games ...competitive game focus on a payoff or goal and has an end game strategy.... cooperative games focus on relationships that are sustainable....like a marriage. or a friendship
Didn't Simon used to compare Apple with Google? 🤔
it's bothers me that the guy doesn't give credit to the authors he's most likely referencing here.
I agree, but he is utilizing the older theories and principles in a style and explanation that is unique to him- knowledge is built and applied. He has done an excellent job of applying laws previously studied while expanding on them and making them applicable to 2018.
He does, in many of his other talks and interviews
I want to ask you a lot of Japanese translation.
Thought provoking and now I can fuly comprehend why some companies have national anthems. Are you advocating that we be citizens of Google rather than the US? You may not need to make a choice between the two. BUT What if there is a conflict of interest in the values of your company versus the values of your country? Which one should you choose? The company pays you a salary, potentially a good one, your country gives you implicit rewards such as security and sense of belonging, but in an increasingly interconnected world, does your loyalty to country really matter? This is the main problem with these giant global organisations (be it a Google or some mammoth industrial plant in Asia) loyalty tends to shift toward company over country. Dunno if we should advocate for a Google national anthem just yet.
Companies are essentially a tribe. A leader, and followers with different roles. A country is essentially a tribe too. What's going on right now is that any leader can start a tribe, as long as they work with the country they start it in and play by their rules. But if a company gets big enough to be international, now the company can force countries to change laws
If Google's vision was to "house the world's information" and now it sees Apple being more profitable, he alludes to changing the vision to be "beyond grasp" (35mins in). Is he suggesting that the vision should change? If that happened would that not also change the purpose too? Be interested to hear people's thoughts.
But how can you outlast your competition if you don’t beat your competition?