Audio | J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Gstaad 1975 - 8: What is the substance of thought?
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ม.ค. 2018
- Subtitles available in: ENGLISH, FINNISH
J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Gstaad 1975 - 8: What is the substance of thought?
Series: Truth, actuality, and the limits of thought
Summary:
What is the basic reason for thought to be fragmented?
What is the substance of thought? Is it a material process, a chemical process?
There is a total perception, which is truth. That perception acts in the field of reality. That action is not the product of thought.
Thought has no place when there is total perception.
Thought never acknowledges to itself that it is mechanical.
Total perception can only exist when the centre is not.
---
This channel is managed by the Krishnamurti Foundation Trust, UK, and by the Krishnamurti Foundation of America.
The role of the foundations was described by Krishnamurti when he said, 'The foundations will see to it that these teachings are kept whole, are not distorted, are not made corrupt. They will not give rise to any sectarian spirit in their activities... nor create any kind of place of worship around the teachings or the person.'
We maintain extensive archives of Krishnamurti's original works and all four Krishnamurti foundations are actively engaged in the publication of material in various forms.
Our videos contain thousands of subtitles in more than 25 languages, translated by volunteers from all over the world. If you would like to help us with translating subtitles, please contact us at digital@kfoundation.org
For more information about J. Krishnamurti and the Krishnamurti foundations:
International Site - www.jkrishnamurti.org/
Facebook - / jk.krishnamurti
Twitter - / orgkrishnamurti
Krishnamurti Foundation Trust, UK - www.kfoundation.org/
Krishnamurti Foundation of America - www.kfa.org/
Krishnamurti Foundation of India - www.kfionline.org/
Fundación Krishnamurti Latinoamericana - www.fkla.org/
This organization is a registered charity. Registered charity number: 312865
© 1975 Krishnamurti Foundation Trust
This dialogue is a treasure.
I think David Bohm understood what Krishnamurti says and inquire into the points that are unclear to himself he brings clarity with words which is really easy to follow and see the point. Thanks for uploading this. Amazing conversation.
These dialogues are giving a new dimension to understanding.
1:08:58: -- Summary and most important insights from the 1st Hour.
The combination of Two things operating within the Thought structure
1. Thought mistaking/misattributing itself for intelligence/aliveness. Hence creating it's own imitations (false perceptions) of reality -- e.g. attachment for love, pleasure for joy, partial intelligence/perception for the whole etc. If thought were somehow perceived to be Mechanical then it would lose it's grip in our Minds.
2. Thought seeing that all these imitations are impermanent, to gain permanency -- it attributed itself and it's creation to a "center" separate from itself and it's content. This attribution to a center gives thought something permanent to "pin things" on, and thus becomes the origin of fragmentation. The center takes various forms -- self, religion, nation etc. And fragments the whole world.
Every dialogue should be like this...back and forth and feeding of each other. They were literally creating knowledge before our eyes! Fascinating.
This is a Goldmine! This conversation opened my eyes and clarity to everything in life! My center was the cause of all my past suffering up to this point! This is absolutely astonishing. Thank you!🙏
Beautiful conversation. Always soothes me. So grateful ❤
The Art of listening. ❤
Thank you for this bread in which one finds difficult in expressing how It may be felt.
Thought is imperishable through an infinite number of finite perspectives gentlemen. Good day.
@ 1.03.35 their dialogue reached the point of ‘total perception’ which can only be instantaneously undivided, not descriptive. Therefore, that total perception is self evidentiary in its nature and acts accordingly. That self evidentiary action or inaction is right action in the present tense (now).
@1.33.47 Krishnamurti states that one of the attributes of total perception is compassion.
@1.37.57 they look further into the true meaning of ‘compassion’ .
@1.30.34 Is there a mystery apart from the mysterious created by religious thought?
The delusional nature of thought is not only personal delusion, but also collective traditional delusion, a fact that society blinds itself to, unfortunately.
Thankssssssssssss, for sharing 🙏
Something new from 52:00 to 54:00. The creativity is not in thought itself but in perception
Wow
The last bit of wow compassion becomes is a gem!
Soooo gooood 🙏🏼🌼
42:41 one tries to approach the whole, through thought (out of habit), and thought then comes upon itself-so in this reflection of thought on itself, it perceives that it has seen the whole.
❤️❤️😌😌🙏💐this is “the “Dialogue
5:37 "brain has no sense organs inside to tell itself that its thinking".
It changes everything
K asks, "Why is thought fragmentary? Is thought seeking result ... Security?" Not seeking the result or security = no continuity = staying/ living in the present moment by moment.
"Going back to the boy, " K says ... genes and hereditary and society ... conditioning is there" ... Genes are in the tradition and culture. "The center is not created by thought, thought is conditioned to create the center." Or tether .... Am I tethered to K and keep coming back to K, doing not a thing to learn from what have made me the way I am? And what do I mean by "the way I am"?
K says, "They did everything to guard the boy" ...
Do everything to protect and guard a child. Thank you ....
Thought may be mechanical - but it arises from a living machine, thus changes as the machine changes (due to the act of perception) - it is still thought but its parameters have changed (eg. from a basis of fear initially to something where fear has no place)
41:05 perceiving how to build a house.
47:05
52:15 perception in invention
55:44
1:01:54
1:20:00
1:26:00
❤️
Many academic disciplines meet in the same discussion.
K says, "We have given thought a tremendous importance." Dr. Bohm fixes the statement, "Thought has given tremendous importance to itself." It maybe is some kind of a saying that relieves humans from the burden of responsibility ... like a mirror bouncing back the light, right off ... ? One of the human skills with the language use and perpetuate, creating many centers made of language ... Scattered around... fragmented.
Fragmented thought needs security to cover fragmented RSS, not whole? Do I know that I am not whole or I have no idea what I am and how I am? Then would I feel secure? I know nothing much about myself, having no perception that could come about self-knowledge ...
🙏💥🧡
Can anyone or somebody from foundation clarify my doubts?
In this video K said that, from childhood, from born, he was unconditioned.
All we are conditioned from born. So my question is that what is the whole point of these K’s discussions? Because clearly, one has to born unconditioned to have perception of whole.
K was special. Buddha was special or anyone who had this perception of truth/whole was special.
So, what conditioned humanity will get from these talks. Because anyways all conditioned people will die with condition. K clearly agreed that it can’t be changed.
Also, the concept of reincarnation takes place here because one has to born unconditioned to get perception of truth.
Is there any change happens to conditioned human when he tries to perceive all his fear, greed, anxiety and all that? And in his one of the future life he will born as unconditioned and perceive the truth?
If it is true then there must be something which carries life to life. You call it karma or anything. When karma gets unconditioned, one born as unconditioned and perceives the truth? Till then he will born as conditioned in multiple lifes till he reaches unconditioned state?
This is very important to clear because if there is nothing in hands of conditioned human to change then he can just hope, believes and pray to the ‘truth’ that it will happen to him in his next existence or next life.
Can anyone clear this point to me or any other K’s talk or book has clarity on this?
He has also said that he was caught up in being a guru, and practiced the typical meditation mantras once upon a time, before he realised it was all false.
He may have been unconditioned from birth, or not. He may even have fooled himself about the infinite, love, compassion, all his life.
I think there is a tendancy to want to believe he is either helpful or not, so that we know whether to follow him or disregard him. I know this leaves us quite unsure, but my own anecdotal evidence says it is really possible to perceive something deeply. Of course it then becomes a memory and i'm once again caught in the net, but there have been times where i've understood the search for meaning, or identification, and the perception has had a profound effect on my daily suffering, or lack thereof.
Often it's not while listening to his talks, but when i'm alone in the woods, or thinking about something very seriously because i feel the implications of it.
Maybe he was a special case, but we really can't know, and once the seed is planted of this kind of thing, we are interested in it for life. At least i think i am.
Hi, in a previous talk of these series, K discuss this very thing you said, he said that for him in a special case, being ill from malaria very young and mentally retarded as he put it, he was unconditioned to tradition, but there are millions of boys in the same position in the world and it doesnt mean they see the truth.
K rejected the idea of having to go through what he lived, he also give an analogy of Colombus discovering America.
So, bottom line, what K says is that what happened to him is not meant to us to lived the same way, I mean to be ill. And it is on us to discover with lots of energy to find out what can we do, because K said that Truth is a pathless land and he saw that it is universal, not for the few (ill, retarded, etc.)
Have a great day and I encourage you to re listen the 2 previous talks: 7 and 6.
Don't seek it. Don't follow K either, Enquire into it & that will produce insights. Don't believe in K. See the facts, observe it, Don't escape from it.!! Perception is not followed up by effort or will.!!
🙏❤️🌎🌿🕊🎵🎶🎵
Thought seeks security becos it identified itself with the body
what is the substance of sleep?
i love you
What is the perception that brings compassion?!
Perception is compassion.
we are both beginning to see somethimg😅😁😁
What no transcript ?
Thought is fragmentary because it seeks the result ... successful or not one goal is completed and move on with other goal(s)...?
Nature is different - not fragmentary - because it doesn't look for the result ... It just keeps on as nature intended ....
Then, who seeks the result?
Whose goal?
Human relationships can be summarized, as "me and non-me" problems
Then there are roughly 7 billion MEs and 7 billion groups of Non-ME's ...
Then humanity has at the least "2× 7billion ME + multiple breeds" of fragments ...
Where can such thing as "compassion" grow, with ME against non-ME's?
Mathematics should make life much simpler, but is this right? I am confused ... No wonder I am no good with the subject
I’ll make it very easy for you, be aware of _______. Now be aware of the awareness....stay there.
hi
Why is what K is communicating with words not thought?
Because the other person is not capable of receiving it
Huh?
Words are spoken thoughts
Thought needs to understand its place. The instrument we are looking through is faulty.
I wonder Dose JK speaks in another talk , how disorienting is to act in our everyday life ,with out center ? When this happen to me at the beginning was extremely taff, to function in every day life ........through the years my biology etc...... adjusted ............ etc........
Thankssssssssssss for sharing 👏👏👏👏👏👏👏👏☀️🙏🌈
You lost it at wondering....you will fall into thinking.
Oh
❤