Audio | J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Gstaad 1975 - 9: Is there in the brain anything untouched...
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 ม.ค. 2018
- Subtitles available in: ENGLISH, FINNISH
J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm - Gstaad 1975 - 9: Is there in the brain anything untouched by culture?
Series: Truth, actuality, and the limits of thought
Summary:
Can there be a total perception which completely heals the brain?
What benefit has culture?
Does speech come before thought?
Is it possible to say something without the operation of thought?
Is there in the brain anything untouched by culture?
Is attention a conscious process?
Is love the factor of profound change?
You explain all this, and you say that whatever the damaged brain - which is the result of thought and tradition and all the rest of it - whatever it does will produce further damage. So, because you point it out, I realise that. That is the first necessity - I realise it. Then, after I’ve realised it, you talk to me at a depth which thought has not touched. You planted a seed.
[ Please note that the recording ends abruptly. ]
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He was blessed to find companions having the depth of interest required to truly connect.
Thx
Humans are ... Personally blessed to have them into this Encounters ...
They both loved speaking together and it’s awesome to listen like I’m in the room we are moving so fast 1980 to 2022 so much has changed
Two of the greatest minds ever literally mind blowing ❤️
What a lovely conversation, fresh as it would happen today. I can only love them both.
His word lives on through the minds of many.
such a DOPE conversation, love it
How simple and clear when they state it.
15:00 Beethoven had a perfect pitch. That means he could hear the actual pitch inside his head. all the 88 keys. It doesn't matter how many notes you play for them. Polychords. Bitonal. Clusters. And then there is harmony which is based on a phenomenon called overtone series. within 1 pitch for example A=440 Hz. There are 15 other notes. (880 Hz, 1320 Hz and so on). All the music theories and harmonies regardless of so called "Western" "Oriental" "Persian". they are all based on them, Western music is based on the first 5 partials. Other musics like Persian(Turkish, Indian) go much further and invented scales based on the last partials.(Chargah Scale). With knowing that Harmony is something limited to the ears and physic of sound. Even a composer who doesn't have perfect pitch is able to write music without hearing. That's relative pitch. understanding the relationships between notes. The intervals. Then the scales and then modes and symmetrical scales. and then Chords and the tensions. Then modal interchanges. secondary dominants and substitutions. They are all objective and universal.
That was the music knowledge which is memory. There is also the personality. The "me". Joe Hisaishi, Vangelis, Beethoven, Justin Bieber, Kerry King They are all composers and using same frequencies. But the memory. Their consciousness interrupted and effected directly on their composition. less they lost in that content more beautiful the music is. Until the point that there is no self and it's only sound. like the sound of the river. the sound of the breeze between the leaves of the trees.
Can you elaborate when you say "the less they loss themselves the more beautiful the content. Meaning are you pulling from the collective unconscious as a representation of the whole
@@E______ think he means the less they put of themselves in the music, the more beautiful it was. By self here is the narrow ego.
Rightly said when one appeals to us at a level which is not conscious we listen, not just hear.And in listening ,where there is no movement of thought, transformation does occur
I've done wonders to my life tuning into JK- like when i listen to current events, its bizarre, I can't follow.
K says, "I talk from emptiness" ... Comes to mind is Jesus' words, "Don't worry about what to say. When the time comes, Father will put the words in your mouth" ...
Exactly, I could not help, while listening, to unconsciously make parallels to another person, who has found the truth and this is Jesus. Of course not because Jesus was the only one, who found it, surely not, but I know most about Jesus. And when I unconsciously compare what these two people, who have found the truth say with what words of Jesus I know, I find 1 to 1 parallels. This to me is an evidence, that they three have found the same truth. Now to come to me, because I need to find the truth myself, not agreeing, but finding.
I have just a very few moments in my, now, long life, I think no more than 4, in which I was so much under pressure to solve an issue, that I gave it all my attention in a qualitative different way than my usual concentration. What happened was I solved it brilliantly, but I had no idea how it happened, I had no memory of the actual process how I solved the issue. Was this that other consciousness, D. Bohm and Krishnamurti are talking about? I guess so. Another moment:
Curiously enough " some of my brain damage was" repaired " when I accidentally hid under a tree (the most stupid thing to do in a storm, I know, but I did it some 32 years ago), which turned out to become the eye of a substantial whirlwind. My reaction after it, was like after a shok and I had a feeling, as if a mixer had whirled the mud of cultural restrictions and prejudices in me, of which I was full to the brim. So my perception was, that "repearing" part of my damaged brain has definitely to do with concentration of energy, which the eye of the whirlwind, where was standing, was.
How interesting! If only I could see the truth and change my life, or perhaps just not wanting anything, I live my life as it comes and through this my life changes and my brain cures. I don't know. But I want a healthy brain, which I definitely do not have yet.
All your questions or here. The truth is telling its own story. In order to know what it is just listen and be attentive with empty mind. Thanks to JK and DB. The truth never dies it leaves for ever ❤️❤️❤️🙏🙏🙏
Wow one of the best never see I taking so much time to answer those good questions,
Like thought before speech or not ?
1:28:00 creativity. It can't be grown. But creation can grow something in reality.
Creativity is not created
26:00 Bohm talks about left and right brain - one is verbal and conscious and the other is non-verbal, possibly unconscious. Perhaps it is being suggested in this dialogue that the verbal side is damaged and the non-verbal side is undamaged. And that side when not suppressed can heal the other side. I wonder if Ian McGilchrist's work especially in "The master and his emissary" (2009) echoes this.
maybe we go back because that thing we go back to was such a huge part in realising the depth and insight... in a sense, the thing we go back to, got us there...and maybe without the going back, we can't be there..
"Appealing to compassion" so intense so much that reaches to the Ground, the source ... through the part of me that is not conditioned, compassionate ... ?
This vedio is not complete, can someone share the link of complete vedio.
Unfortunately the original tape runs out at the end in the middle of Bohm speaking. This is all we have.
@@KFoundation thankx for replying.. unfortunately another mystery..
“It’s my job to get them to understand this”.... well no wonder he has white hair! 😂
Does K ever ask his students what THEY see as getting in the way? Does he then listen to them with empathy?
He seems very stuck on this one scenario. Could it be that since K's transformation came upon spontaneously, he has very little capacity to imagine another way, which will work for less extraordinary people?
It seems to me that maybe Bohm is better positioned in this way. He often goes quiet when K discusses the challenges of passing on his understanding. I wonder if they ever discuss the correlative relationship between consciousness and society and that perhaps both are to be attended to together. This might indicate why we "fall back" after an enlightening seminar. Maybe society and individuals must transform together?
I think here K. talk’s about Subliminal message (Perception or Compassion)
I find these conversations the most interesting of all of K's talks with anyone. Dr. Bohm is not simply saying yes to everything K says. I also see more contradictions than in many years before, (partly from reading about his life as well). JK has always said that meditation (the usual way, sitting and 'thinking') was never going to get people anywhere, yet he did it on a daily basis for years. He also says in these talks that he was never conditioned as a young boy. I wonder then what the 'process' was that he went through in his late twenties and early thirties if he was already unconditioned. He also talked about how sex, and other desires, were but a deterrent to being free, yet, he himself, had a long relationship with a married woman. It is not that I judge the fact he had this relationship but I do question how he could have it and talk against such relationships, and also, apparently, from more than one report, hide the fact he had the relationship from the public, which obviously was partly because he would no longer be taken seriously as an enlightened human. Also, he said on his deathbed that no one on earth had attained the place he had in the realm of spiritualism. Such a grand pronouncement. If he talked for over fifty years and no one had gone beyond their own conditioned thinking mind, than what success had his teachings? I find others who have spoken on the loss of ego much more direct and plausible when I look deeply into what they are saying, people like Tolle, Gangaji, and the Buddha's sayings. Also the Tao te Ching is even clearer than K's 'ideas' which actually seem to vary when he is talking with Dr. Bohm.
The Love K says is perhaps in that level in which in normal human lifestyle does not reveal ... exists and one can actually appeal to ...?
I think to get to the bottom of what we are to do we must start with the lowest common denominator, doom. That is the shock. That is where the conversation needs to go today. Are we doomed, or not? Let’s begin.
"Keep doing the same thing in a same groove will bring brain damage" Dr. Bohm says, while doing the same thing in the grooves of tradition of the words and, of course, of science. Is he keep doing that because he thinks his brain is protected since he has good intentions, to help the rest of the wordy beings? It's a quite sacrificial action on the side of Dr. Bohm! Personally, I am very grateful of his work, to bring out all of K!
But am I doing the same thing? In which groove and the level of thought and how? In a little bucket ... Of something!
K says, "EVerything is against it."
And Dr. Bohm says, "They are necessary in real life" ....
Are they?
What is the thing called "real"? Beyond that actual that are not actualized through the barriers, as illusions, thoughts that are actualized through languages?
A man slipped off from a cliff and
Falling and falling and somehow, he grabbed a small tree branch which was growing out from the side of the cliff ... He was struggling, twisting, and screaming for help
And suddenly he heard someone yelling at him, "Gosh, just stretch out your limbs and jump off, will you?"
Well ... what am I afraid 🤣😃 of ... losing my SELF - past memories? illusion or delusion time meeting something fresh new?
The worst barrier would be My Fear that tries to cling onto my tiny dark ugly bucket ... but then my ears cannot hear the yelling of the man, with both of my ears plugged with my own struggles ....
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to be a conditioned person, wouldn't you once have had to have been an unconditioned person? And if so, isn't that why when we perceive certain information/energy, it connects with that part that is unconditioned, that even though we are conditioned when we speak, the unconditioned is there automatically, otherwise the condition wouldn't exist?
Wow, broaden the stand of that which is free
1:09:46
I wonder if there is any book regarding all of these dialogues between J. Krishnamurti and David bohm in which are collected in a skript? Not only in audio format but even as a book.
You are looking for the book 'The Ending of Time'.
If you are based in the UK or Europe: store.kfoundation.org/books/books-by-j-krishnamurti/books/ending-of-time-the-2014-enlarged-and-revised-edition
In the US: store.kfa.org/products/the-ending-of-time-new-edition
In India: www.kfionline.org/online-store/the-ending-of-time/
@@KFoundation
Thank you very much for this tip. "The ending of time" .
This book collected only the conversation between J. Krishnamurti and David bohm in which was taking place in Ojai 1980. Is there possibly another book in which contains the previous conversation between J. Krishnamurti and David bohm in Brockwood in 1975.
Some of the 1975 dialogues were published in the book 'Truth and Actuality', but in edited form. A few dialogues were also included in the book 'Limits of Thought'. If you wish to receive the transcripts of these talks, you can contact our archivist at archives@kfoundation.org mentioning this specific series of dialogues.
@@KFoundation Thanks a lot for your response and giving the very useful tip regarding those books.
what is a 'complete answer'
❤️💐😌😌
Can I (instead someone else) shock myself so that my EGO would be able to throw up the situation in which I have been drowning in the great sea of conditioning, cultural, traditional, personal or otherwise ...?
Assuming you have an ego - and even worse that you have to get rid of it - IS the imaginary problem you may cling to if you are too fearful to just let yourself drop into the next second all the time.
So, you need not be shocked. You could just start by sitting (so you don't fall to sleep too fast) and wonder and watch what is going on right now, in your body, in your mind, liste to the nature and the cars in the streets. Don't comment it, just welcome or accept what is. If tired, sleep but you may come back tomorrow.
There is nothing to reach. If you stop searchimg, stop being someone in particular, reality could finally catch up to you running away no more. The one merging with reality will not be you, reality does not need to find itself it is.
Thundering silence would be a good word but it has never not been there. It can not be described because it is fresh every second. Description starts always from the past when you learned words.
There is no one talking here. There is beautiful silence and the sky is always fresh under the sun, even as clouds are painting themselves on it and then there is fresh darkness, that only exists in absence of light and light exists only in absence of darkness.
No comments. Interesting.
couldn't we say that, a non habit is a habit? that the effect is the cause
Thanks for sharing we may expand and penetrate ,differ that our cells brain are already condition with information by the time. We Are born , for sure by our mother DNA , our soul matter or collective consciousness is already condition , still science dose not understand the hall function with in the brain space , Glia etc..........
a part of human biology and brain nature , is not a damage it is living its function,, it i many many layers to this conversation
Poets unloaded poetry , like musicians, scientist unloaded too etc....... this process is part of our human designed ..........
Let me to imply that Our human designed it is in a process of evolution , no every one has the outer conditions or inner designed for that quantum jump to happen
The one that do that evolutionary quantum jump has nothing to do with them , they didn’t make it happen , The nature of nature made it happen
To survive it in itself is challenge
Thankssssss JK for your teachings 💕🙏☀️🌈
Everyone Can do that... But we need To leave all The pattern of ego as jk Said, and begin from death observe all movement of soul And at Last touch The source of energy that produce everything. It s An impossible Thing If we Live in that System of Maya.
JK so many billions of humans born and die with out listening to your talks , they are Not damage , just they didn’t have the right condition or to reflect in these topics , humanity deal with life the best they can 🙏
Sorry but humanity don't deal with life the best they can. Can is potential and the best is an illusion.
How are they Not damage when they behave like damaged one? "Damage" probably means a tick which must go through some ridiculously strenghten neural network.
Truth is, there has always been a war on consciousness. Ever so more now days due to human beings engaged in worldly affairs. Corporate structures aren’t helping by turning man into a eating machine on every level. As JK said, everting Is against you but able that’s against one is thoughts.
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The poor old man found his match ...!
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