Thanks for another great video! I appreciate your comments about free choice minerals vs supplemented grain products. It's hard to know exactly what the animals are getting on pasture-only systems, but there's definitely caution needed when providing supplements. I think of this like my own multi-vitamins that I take. I don't crave a multi-vitamin if I'm deficient... but sometimes I do feel off. For example, I think there's a correspondence between Vitamin D levels and depression. But someone who's depressed won't think "I should take Vitamin D today" the same way the animals will not necessarily correlate how they are feeling with eating those mineral supplements. I guess the best answer is to monitor our animals and check in with a vet regularly, since they can run blood tests that will show if there is a deficiency or not.
Thanks, April. I do believe you and I are on the same page with this. As always, I appreciate you taking the time to leave us a comment. I’m kinda surprised at the negative comments we got on this one but I guess I shouldn’t be. Lots of “grain is the devil” people commenting. They tell me that you know when your channel is doing well when you get negative comments. 🫤
@@LinessaFarms I was surprised by the negatives too! I think of it as people believing a "natural" way is better than a scientific way, like when people are anti-vax. Science can save a lot of lives; nature doesn't always want to.
Oats are superior in multiple ways but neither are really a “complete” feed on their own. Oats are easier on the teeth and offer more vitamins and minerals. Price can be an issue, although currently the price of oats is down. Who knows how long that will last though.
Thanks for the video. Check Fred Provenza's book Nourishmet. He shares a plethora of scientific studies on how (given the necessary pasture diversity) animals do know how to ballance their diets and do select minerals accordingly. Another one you might want to check is Pat Coleby's Natural Sheep Care she had decades of success treating goats and sheep naturally with soil management, a diverse pasture and free choice minerals. I'm biased towards grass fed and thing there are there are other grain-related variables (including ethical ones) to be covered: a) if they come from poor soils they'll lack nutrients too. b) total mixed rations and grains in general rely on GMO crops and degrading industrial ways of producing (these grains come with residual toxins from herbicides and pesticides), and c) it's only in last few decades that we have been selecting animals for body weight conversion on TMRs, biologically herbivores do not eat crop grains, and for millennia we selected the ones with good conversion on pastures (hence no grain operations need to source and genetically develop stock accordingly). Thanks again!
No. We normally keep ours on creep feed until they are a couple of weeks post weaning and then they are done. 👍🏻 The only exception would be our show animals who stay on grain longer due to growth requirements.
Prophylactic medication in feed would have me running the opposite direction. That sounds like a recipe for developing drug resistance in the coccidia population.
All medications and methods of action are different. Some “kill” coccidia and some prevent reproduction. We worry more about resistance in the medications that kill (think corrid, toltrazuril, sulfa). The goal of medications such as Deccox, bovatec, rumensin, etc is ti keep existing coccidia levels under control. You are correct though. Any medication, especially if used incorrectly, is going to cause more harm than good. If you don’t have a coccidia issue, and you are monitoring your flock with fecal samples, you can probably get away without medications. I have never seen a flock without at least one or two carriers of coccidia but I’m not the end all be all authority on this subject. It’s never a good practice to say “all” or “always” especially when talking about livestock. In the end, we are just giving our opinion and you need to do what’s best for you and your farm. Thanks for watching and taking the time to leave a comment. You are appreciated.
Thanks for the video. Have you heard of the book nourished by Dr Fred Provenza? He goes into the science of animals knowing what minerals they need. It's very interesting!
I have. I have also watched some of his interviews. He makes some great points about how we ruin minerals through far too much added salt. He also does a great job talking about how animals know to go after specific plants when they are mineral deficient. I’m still not on board with the mineral buffet idea but feel the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Here is where they lose me: a few years ago I was talking to my vet about the buffet style feeder for mineral and he steered me away from it. Not one to take no for an answer, I contacted my local university about how to use the system appropriately (Purdue ag department). I run sheep and goats together and was asking about the minerals and they said, well… you can’t put copper out because the sheep will eat it and die… and you can’t just leave phosphorus out with the males because they will get urinary calculi and die… and you can’t leave out too much selenium because the lambs and kids can overdose. This went on and on. In the end, I was told I had to assist them in their choices. So, I’m back to square one where I think the best answer is GOOD minerals mixed correctly. Is it the best answer, I don’t think so. I think the correct answer ultimately is something most of us fall short of getting, which is also alluded to by Dr. Provenza. Ideally, these animals need access to healthy plants and trees which provide these needed vitamins and minerals. Nature makes these plants and trees in a perfect fashion to provide while not giving too much. Isolating vitamins and nutrients and offering them free choice assuming the animals know which ones to take in and at what levels exactly is a bridge too far for me. Going back to my discussion with Purdue, I feel we can’t have it both ways. I can’t argue they know when to eat it but they don’t know when to not eat it in good conscious. As always, the answer to this is probably somewhere in the middle. I will be the first to admit that 90% of the commercially produced minerals are garbage, mostly salt, and fall short of any realistic expectations for health or quality. We appreciate you taking the time to leave this comment. It’s a valuable one and we appreciate you.
That’s very nice you have access to those trees! We know goats and sheep love aspen. 👍🏻 Thanks for watching and thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. You are appreciated.
Why do you suppose grain fed kids grow faster? Do you consider pure alfalfa a recommendation for goats to eat? What happens to the protein content of alfalfa once it is baled? What is the protein content of soybeans, which along with corn make up a majority of sheep and goat feed products? You make great, honest points and then you discredit yourself by making statements like, “grain is not higher in protein” when almost all producers know soybean meal is around 40% CP. Regardless, these ruminants can only safely process up to about 20% protein and maintain health. As I’m sure you are aware, there is such a thing as too high of protein on pasture which can lead to illness and wasting. The protein content of most grasses and legumes drop significantly after baling but alfalfa is still a great option coming in at around 13-18% depending on cutting and growth. We aren’t trying to convince anyone to use or not to use grain. We have no motivation to steer people either way. As stated in the video, animals can be raised well with or without grain. I suppose if we had a motivation to keep people away from grain such as running a business that is grain free, posting articles against the use of grain, or perhaps telling people not to use grain, that might be another story. In the end, we stand by our statements. Anyone can raise happy, healthy sheep and goats with or without grain. People can also research comments to see if people actually know what they are talking about. Thanks for watching the video. We appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment.
@@AGirlAndHerDogz I have to admit I saw that one coming. Look, I will admit I didn’t invent the commodities market but soybeans are considered a grain along with many other legumes. This is basic knowledge. I would assume in your many years of farming, you would know this. This is very common knowledge. Usually referred to as pulses or a “grain legume”. When talking to other producers in the livestock industry, soybean and corn are considered grain. Again, I don’t make the rules. I’ve included an article for you to educate yourself on commodities and their classifications. en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain
@@AGirlAndHerDogz I understand why people don’t want to feed grain, 100%. I’m just saying your approach is off. If you want to motivate people, you need to hammer them with facts and not so much opinion. I don’t believe in chemical wormers and I work super hard to find ways not to use them. I also get blown up by people who think I’m nuts. I get it. Not the same subject, but something I think we can agree people get passionate about. Grain is another subject people get passionate about. I get it. Between GMOs and chemicals, it’s a problem. Ruminants need roghage and aren’t designed to live on grains, again, I get this and we have cautioned against this time and time again. If people can get by without grain, I think they should. I’m also not going to berate people that use it. In our case, it’s right for our farm but we know it’s not right for everyone. Again, my problem is with your approach. In the end, we probably disagree. That’s ok.
Your telling people they need grain assuming they all have poor grass pastures like you do. My forage average is 19 percent on last test. At best your grass will be 10. Hard to match me on gain without a lot of grain. Guys like me have proven they do know the difference between minerals. Same as you crave something they do to and will hit one mineral hard then change to another as pastures change
I agree if you have regenerative farm with good grasses you don’t need minerals. Greg Judy run hundreds of sheep and cattle on grass alone. How do you have such a extensive background in sheep and do not know this. He does not even worm. He breeds back 1.8 % that’s almost two for one. How can you not make money, oh it’s that grain. They don’t eat grain in the wild.
@@SJA-ox3hs no you still need to have good mineral out at all time but this you have to pour grain to them is absolutely a lie. I goats have a 2.4 replacement rate sheep is just about the same as greg has. Where gred doesn't graze the timber is where I have my goats.
www.sheepandgoat.com/truthgrain
❤❤❤ god bless your family ❤❤❤
Thank you sir.
Do you mix the aureomycin in sheep or goat mineral? Just seems easier to do that than mixing with feed? What’s your opinion?
Thanks for another great video! I appreciate your comments about free choice minerals vs supplemented grain products. It's hard to know exactly what the animals are getting on pasture-only systems, but there's definitely caution needed when providing supplements. I think of this like my own multi-vitamins that I take. I don't crave a multi-vitamin if I'm deficient... but sometimes I do feel off. For example, I think there's a correspondence between Vitamin D levels and depression. But someone who's depressed won't think "I should take Vitamin D today" the same way the animals will not necessarily correlate how they are feeling with eating those mineral supplements. I guess the best answer is to monitor our animals and check in with a vet regularly, since they can run blood tests that will show if there is a deficiency or not.
Thanks, April. I do believe you and I are on the same page with this. As always, I appreciate you taking the time to leave us a comment. I’m kinda surprised at the negative comments we got on this one but I guess I shouldn’t be. Lots of “grain is the devil” people commenting. They tell me that you know when your channel is doing well when you get negative comments. 🫤
@@LinessaFarms I was surprised by the negatives too! I think of it as people believing a "natural" way is better than a scientific way, like when people are anti-vax. Science can save a lot of lives; nature doesn't always want to.
What kind of fencing are you using to keep the goats in ?
We use Premier 1 netting.
Are oats better than corn or about the same ? Witch one is better for their stomachs ?
Oats are superior in multiple ways but neither are really a “complete” feed on their own. Oats are easier on the teeth and offer more vitamins and minerals. Price can be an issue, although currently the price of oats is down. Who knows how long that will last though.
@@LinessaFarms thank you . That was what I wanted to know . With horses oats are better too .
What free choice mineral should I buy for my pregnant ewes?
We sell both goat minerals plus vitamins as well as alpha kid goat mineral, which contains Deccox. Please go to our website at www.linessafarms.com
Thanks for the video. Check Fred Provenza's book Nourishmet. He shares a plethora of scientific studies on how (given the necessary pasture diversity) animals do know how to ballance their diets and do select minerals accordingly. Another one you might want to check is Pat Coleby's Natural Sheep Care she had decades of success treating goats and sheep naturally with soil management, a diverse pasture and free choice minerals.
I'm biased towards grass fed and thing there are there are other grain-related variables (including ethical ones) to be covered: a) if they come from poor soils they'll lack nutrients too. b) total mixed rations and grains in general rely on GMO crops and degrading industrial ways of producing (these grains come with residual toxins from herbicides and pesticides), and c) it's only in last few decades that we have been selecting animals for body weight conversion on TMRs, biologically herbivores do not eat crop grains, and for millennia we selected the ones with good conversion on pastures (hence no grain operations need to source and genetically develop stock accordingly). Thanks again!
If you start a lamb on creep feed, do you have to continue to feed it grain for the rest of its life or can you transition it to pasture?
No. We normally keep ours on creep feed until they are a couple of weeks post weaning and then they are done. 👍🏻
The only exception would be our show animals who stay on grain longer due to growth requirements.
When picking free choice minerals ... what would be the requirement difference for NO PHOSPHORUS vs PHOSPHORUS ?
No phos would be your choice for males, assuming they have enough in their normal diet. We worry about too much phosphorus leading to urinary calculi.
@@LinessaFarms Thanks Tim !
Prophylactic medication in feed would have me running the opposite direction. That sounds like a recipe for developing drug resistance in the coccidia population.
All medications and methods of action are different. Some “kill” coccidia and some prevent reproduction. We worry more about resistance in the medications that kill (think corrid, toltrazuril, sulfa). The goal of medications such as Deccox, bovatec, rumensin, etc is ti keep existing coccidia levels under control. You are correct though. Any medication, especially if used incorrectly, is going to cause more harm than good. If you don’t have a coccidia issue, and you are monitoring your flock with fecal samples, you can probably get away without medications. I have never seen a flock without at least one or two carriers of coccidia but I’m not the end all be all authority on this subject. It’s never a good practice to say “all” or “always” especially when talking about livestock. In the end, we are just giving our opinion and you need to do what’s best for you and your farm. Thanks for watching and taking the time to leave a comment. You are appreciated.
Thanks for the video. Have you heard of the book nourished by Dr Fred Provenza? He goes into the science of animals knowing what minerals they need. It's very interesting!
I have. I have also watched some of his interviews. He makes some great points about how we ruin minerals through far too much added salt. He also does a great job talking about how animals know to go after specific plants when they are mineral deficient. I’m still not on board with the mineral buffet idea but feel the answer is probably somewhere in the middle. Here is where they lose me: a few years ago I was talking to my vet about the buffet style feeder for mineral and he steered me away from it. Not one to take no for an answer, I contacted my local university about how to use the system appropriately (Purdue ag department). I run sheep and goats together and was asking about the minerals and they said, well… you can’t put copper out because the sheep will eat it and die… and you can’t just leave phosphorus out with the males because they will get urinary calculi and die… and you can’t leave out too much selenium because the lambs and kids can overdose. This went on and on. In the end, I was told I had to assist them in their choices. So, I’m back to square one where I think the best answer is GOOD minerals mixed correctly. Is it the best answer, I don’t think so. I think the correct answer ultimately is something most of us fall short of getting, which is also alluded to by Dr. Provenza. Ideally, these animals need access to healthy plants and trees which provide these needed vitamins and minerals. Nature makes these plants and trees in a perfect fashion to provide while not giving too much. Isolating vitamins and nutrients and offering them free choice assuming the animals know which ones to take in and at what levels exactly is a bridge too far for me. Going back to my discussion with Purdue, I feel we can’t have it both ways. I can’t argue they know when to eat it but they don’t know when to not eat it in good conscious. As always, the answer to this is probably somewhere in the middle. I will be the first to admit that 90% of the commercially produced minerals are garbage, mostly salt, and fall short of any realistic expectations for health or quality. We appreciate you taking the time to leave this comment. It’s a valuable one and we appreciate you.
I give my goats lots of aspen trees and alders.
That’s very nice you have access to those trees! We know goats and sheep love aspen. 👍🏻
Thanks for watching and thank you for taking the time to leave a comment. You are appreciated.
Yes, grain fed kids grow faster, doesn't mean that they are healthier doing that. Grain also is not higher in protein, alfalfa is though.
Why do you suppose grain fed kids grow faster? Do you consider pure alfalfa a recommendation for goats to eat? What happens to the protein content of alfalfa once it is baled? What is the protein content of soybeans, which along with corn make up a majority of sheep and goat feed products? You make great, honest points and then you discredit yourself by making statements like, “grain is not higher in protein” when almost all producers know soybean meal is around 40% CP. Regardless, these ruminants can only safely process up to about 20% protein and maintain health. As I’m sure you are aware, there is such a thing as too high of protein on pasture which can lead to illness and wasting. The protein content of most grasses and legumes drop significantly after baling but alfalfa is still a great option coming in at around 13-18% depending on cutting and growth. We aren’t trying to convince anyone to use or not to use grain. We have no motivation to steer people either way. As stated in the video, animals can be raised well with or without grain. I suppose if we had a motivation to keep people away from grain such as running a business that is grain free, posting articles against the use of grain, or perhaps telling people not to use grain, that might be another story. In the end, we stand by our statements. Anyone can raise happy, healthy sheep and goats with or without grain. People can also research comments to see if people actually know what they are talking about. Thanks for watching the video. We appreciate you taking the time to leave a comment.
@@LinessaFarms grain is not soybean meal. Been in goats for many, many years. I have no need to feed junk and improper food to my animals.
@@AGirlAndHerDogz I have to admit I saw that one coming. Look, I will admit I didn’t invent the commodities market but soybeans are considered a grain along with many other legumes. This is basic knowledge. I would assume in your many years of farming, you would know this. This is very common knowledge. Usually referred to as pulses or a “grain legume”. When talking to other producers in the livestock industry, soybean and corn are considered grain. Again, I don’t make the rules. I’ve included an article for you to educate yourself on commodities and their classifications.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grain
@@LinessaFarms how about you do your research on the long-term effects of feeding corn and soy to ruminate animals.
@@AGirlAndHerDogz I understand why people don’t want to feed grain, 100%. I’m just saying your approach is off. If you want to motivate people, you need to hammer them with facts and not so much opinion. I don’t believe in chemical wormers and I work super hard to find ways not to use them. I also get blown up by people who think I’m nuts. I get it. Not the same subject, but something I think we can agree people get passionate about. Grain is another subject people get passionate about. I get it. Between GMOs and chemicals, it’s a problem. Ruminants need roghage and aren’t designed to live on grains, again, I get this and we have cautioned against this time and time again. If people can get by without grain, I think they should. I’m also not going to berate people that use it. In our case, it’s right for our farm but we know it’s not right for everyone. Again, my problem is with your approach. In the end, we probably disagree. That’s ok.
Your telling people they need grain assuming they all have poor grass pastures like you do. My forage average is 19 percent on last test. At best your grass will be 10. Hard to match me on gain without a lot of grain. Guys like me have proven they do know the difference between minerals. Same as you crave something they do to and will hit one mineral hard then change to another as pastures change
Thanks for watching the video and taking the time to leave a message. We appreciate it.
I agree if you have regenerative farm with good grasses you don’t need minerals. Greg Judy run hundreds of sheep and cattle on grass alone. How do you have such a extensive background in sheep and do not know this. He does not even worm. He breeds back 1.8 % that’s almost two for one. How can you not make money, oh it’s that grain. They don’t eat grain in the wild.
@@SJA-ox3hs thanks for sharing your thoughts. We appreciate you watching our video.
@@SJA-ox3hs Greg feeds minerals.
@@SJA-ox3hs no you still need to have good mineral out at all time but this you have to pour grain to them is absolutely a lie. I goats have a 2.4 replacement rate sheep is just about the same as greg has. Where gred doesn't graze the timber is where I have my goats.