Im still trying to figure out how did this lead to my defensive items being nerfed and mages being buffed. Even if i do build and play appropriately where is the counterplay for crit. I have gone full support on cthulu and get shred before i take 5 steps just admit theres no merit to building tank whatsoever. Its whoever gets their damage off first and who has better CC. None of these changes were needed and i wouldnt mind building HP if hunters werent building heart seeker on a full crit build or my favorite obsidian Soul reaver rod of tahutti. People keep talking about the pro league but i dont think pro league is the ones bringing in most of the money or the ones dictating which T5 gets selected. As a tank main who has diamond nearly all the guardians and warriors i think ik a little bit more than someone who plays a more damaging role.
i still think there has to be more conditional protection items, items with mixed stats and more variances in both magical and physical protection realm.
The problem I'm finding is the lack of people knowing how to teamfight.. before as a tank during a fight, if I dove and got no follow up I'd sigh shake my head and walk away. Now. If my whole team is behind me and I engage, and they decide to go take a side camp or just clear wave for NO REASON. I die. And it really pisses me off. The games where I drastically just eat garbage I've noticed that the enemy team is always stuck together like glue, while my team is seperated in the jungle/lanes or deaths are being staggered and before as a support you could defend much easier but these changes just prevented tanks from slowing anything down pace wise.. which again is frustrating, but yeah it's a teamfight thing, not a tank thing.
@@clouded-glory >full support Cthulhu I don't wanna be that guy, but I think that's your problem, with that particular character. He might have some bonus kit-based mitigations, but trying to use him like a normal support is asking to get turned into a pincushion with nothing to show for it.
Yeah, but u still a massive target, with no movement abilities and short range abilities. Being in the face of ppl is how u are expected to play these guardians. Anyways, what good is pure support in a level of play where there is basically no team play, at least if the guardian is tanky, they can take hits for a teammate, or delay an outnumbered situation.
Oni hunters garb was an impactful item because it brought percent mitigation which was augmented by protections. Now there is too much damage in the game and onis doesn’t mean anything anynore
The tanks being as "squishy" as they are now is a build-up from years and years of Smike being alive. It didn't just happen suddenly. I've been playing since Season 0. Where an item that gave you 750 PLUS 15% of your maximum health 1850 gold. And then you can add another item for another 2850 gold. Why do you think the maximum amount of health a character could have is 5500? Because it was actually obtainable at multiple points throughout Smite's history. This was a time where Artemis was the ONLY hunter for a good period of time. When actual hard CC abilities were rare to come across. The only penetration items that really existed for a good while were Obsidian/Titans and Void Stone/Shield. Tanks were REALLY tanky back in season 0 and season 1. Pretty much every defensive item in the game also tacked on health, and the pure health items gave out a lot of health. This wash changed because people didn't like that. But for tanks to do their job, they have to be tanky. But no one wants to sit around and hit a damage sponge all day while they CC you to death, so their overall CC was toned down. But of course tanks did no damage so you could pretty much ignore them. Then HiRez increased the tank's based damage on their moves so that you couldn't just simply ignore them. There's a lot more to this but I'm paraphrasing a lot since I'd be here forever. The main draw is that there used to be a Triangle of sorts. Tanks beat Junglers because junglers did all their damage in a burst and Tanks can handle burst damage. Junglers had to build very specific items to shred tanks, but this led to the issue of them not being able to deal with carries as well. Jungler's beat carries because carries have a problem handling sudden burst damage. And then we had the carries (inhand) beating tanks because tanks could handle burst, but not consistent damage. In a way, this triangle does still exist in a way, but not nearly to the effect of early Smite. The main problem with support/solo mains feeling squishy is that HiRez is now making it so that these "tank shredding" items are now part of a standard build where as before gods had to build into them. And also before, Tanks can build health and defense easily. Now they either have to do one or the other for the most part. Yes, in ways you can still end up with 3K health and 250+ defenses but you won't reach that until very late game where as in early smite, you could reach that mid game with no effort.
Hard agree as someone who's been playing since S1 dropped. Tanking feels progressively worse each season too because damage items get much more bloated stats in comparison, and since defense and health are linear stats vs multiplicative scaling, the numbers tend to lean in favor of damage.
Mate, from what you say I get that you never even touched solo or that you also "hate" warriors. The problem solo mains have is this: "IN ORDER TO WIN, PICK MAGE OR ASSASSIN, USE A BRAINDEAD DAMAGE BUILD AN YOU WIN. ZERO STRATEGY, ZERO COUNTERPLAY, ZERO FRONTLINE" I hope, I was clear because you seem to lash out against solo players but you don't understand why we are upset
(Speaking as a joust main) I think they are. I’ve been thinking the problem is not pen or %pen in itself, but the fact that a god can build big pen without sacrificing other stats since a lot of seemingly random items just got %pen tacked on to them with either no nerfs or only minor nerfs. Like when I play mage, I usually like to build Pythagoras and Typhon’s to get all my lifesteal, a huge chunk of power, and 20% pen from a cheap item and a mid price item.
I think part of a major design flaw is simply coming out with these changes: balancing tanks in the current meta is difficult because tanks deal too much base damage. When a tank can stack defense and run people down trading in their favor against multiple opponents, the balance is unfun. However, not having the option to soak or being gimped because you want to be a full tank is also unfun. The clear defining factor here is that the most popular roles in the game are carry roles, so the opinions of carry mains are heard more and validated more by the community. Those people are happy to be able to melt anything that comes near them just as tanks are happy to soak anything that comes near them. It's a bias that favors the majority in this situation, and the only way to actually fix this upset in the balance is to more clearly define role identity without completely removing flexibility from classes.
Tanks in reference to tanking, got worse. There are starting to be other gods played in support which is fine, but they play a bruiser/hybrid rather than tanking. Now building max protections is worthless, while building maybe 150 to 200 with health is better. I like the damage changes, but as a tank main and not a bruiser main it hurts.
the problem of it working only up to 150-200 is that you still have 3 sloths, and in smite there aren t so much support-non-defense items. so you go damage. and that makes you a bruiser. which means, that you cannot be a total tank
@@Wilsontripplets yeah, rat bruiser is busted xd. i would recomend more of an caduceus than a sob though. rat is more of a diver more than sticking to his allies, and your living ones can still use caduceus to heal. plus it works with the nuts passive
As a tank main, I surprisingly haven't felt much a difference tbh. I definitely feel it when an Arachne runs at me with qins sais during my Cthulhu ult and absolutely shreds my eldritch ass though, but aside from that, tanks feel pretty similar to what they did before. Also we can build damage items on them now and not get scoffed at so that's a plus in my book.
Yea I have felt the same I really think the sledge has encourage alot of warriors to build more health because before the update I would see alot of builds with high prots but not much health
@@williamwrobel4928 if you mean the midseason change, that was a buff. Nemean was dogshit before, ever since the 7.1 nerf that took it from 25% reflect down to 15%. Completely useless. Block stacks are better than that.
Items are too bloated, so many with 3-4 stats many of them cdr or pen + a passive. Remember BoV being expensive and only good for the cdr+phy prot combo?
TBH tanks or not i have no issue changing the concept of "support" from "super tanky and nothing else" to "i am helping my team". The pen changes haven't settled in yet so it will take time to build optimally for support again. If they have a lot of pen you opt for health and mitigations oni hunters(9%) spirit robe (10%), stone of gaia and tank boots have been buffed, also do understand that not many can build quins, so countering health can be difficult for some opponents especially against magical adc's. Or another playstyle is to go with an aggresive support build binding,magus and ethereal really helps you with that. TL:DR The meta changed a lot so we need time to adapt with the new builds. That's why i higly recommend watching channels like this one to help you being informed better. Also checking out pro players, what the build and how they commentate on changes can really help.
Lots of adcs can build qins, its just not a build focus anymore where you can get crit heavy builds with max pen and a decent amount of attack speed, allowing Qins to be built 6th or 7th.
I think a lot of the frustration is overblown, that being said I think what feels like the biggest problem to me is that % pen is on so many items that many damage dealers get 30-40% without ever intentionally building into pen. I've had assassins and mages who can shred me as a tank despite building purely for squishy burst damage. (In other words too many items are efficient to the point that the pen on them isn't even the reason they're picked up by many players.) Supports do have tools to survive, and I actually think the current meta is more fun and diverse despite the issues. But that doesn't mean I don't think there are problems with % pen.
Agreed. Saying this as someone who laughs and shakes my head at Atalanta's Bow as I continue to now build it on every hunter, every single game, and never do too badly. It's kind of an unfair item. It could have no passive and I would probably still buy it. The passive makes Executioner's waaay outclassed. Sure Executioner's will help your whole team but it's like. Who cares? With the new Hide of the Nemean, Executioner's can need up to 5 autos to proc. Serrated Edge. I'm not happy they increased the price but it was necessary. It is so bloated. It also has a free 20% penetration. I don't want this item removed. It fills a niche. When tanks are too tanky the game can be unfun. But maybe just 10% pen? Or a stacking mechanic to reward good play? It's hard to say. I don't want all the free pen gone just yet. But I can't deny that I have been buying Atalanta's Bow on almost every hunter build, even full-power/cdr Chiron. Fail-Not is also hard to ignore but at least it is pricey and has a terrible tier 1.
@@rawkhawk414 Atalantas is almost what pre-nerf Executioner was, a must build every game on 90% of hunters. Also you know that old pre-nerf Exe + Titans combo pre-mid season was still more pen against 200+ prot tanks than having maxing pen now? th-cam.com/video/QzjBvp8GED8/w-d-xo.html
3k Health and 200 protections and you are a tank, when in other MOBA games you can easily reach 5k-6k, ADC can take more damage with life steal than supports at late game
When talking to a friend I posed that hide of the urchin should have a stacking % reflect from any and all damage stacking up with kills and assists to a max 10% less than thorns or kuzen 2 but never on cool down so arguably better for damage sponge supports
@@rick2987 Antiheal exists. Mages and assassins would get absolutely wrecked as well. Not all hunters build lifesteal. I don't think you understand how broken that would be.
@@distraction2803 well, it won t be so much broken as it did exist before, and it was called nemeal lion. and it isn t like the supports bought it in every match when it still bounced 25% of the damage taken. they bought it just in the niche cases of 2/3 adcs. and if a hunter dont buy devourers gauntlet /hecate first there are 2 options A: they don t fight using autos (like ullr) B: they are trolling even removing the whole lifesteal of these items, they are still busted for their prices. and yes, antihealing exist, but in the actual meta, if the whole 3 items are applied (the adcs item, the assassin item, and the mage item) chances are that not only the adc is dead, but his whole team got nuked and i supposed it didnt bounce skill damage, as it was implied in the firsr comment, and i though the second had direct relation on that (which didnt). bouncing skill damage would be busted. ask nox
The issue isn't really penetration vs supports. Or rather, it isn't JUST penetration vs supports. Also, more importantly, the solo laners are being impacted by these changes more, they normally didn't have enough prots for old titans to be that strong, now they're always being effected by 30-40%, 60% with titans new passive for an ability. With 7.7 we got more build variety from the hunter role and assassins got buffed. Let's go over tanks and what makes them less tanky. Phys: Heartseeker, Qins, Exe, Titans, Atalantas, Serrated, stone cutting, berserkers, failnot, wind demon, crusher, brawlers, jotunns, asi, void shield Magical: Estaff, Obshard, Reaver, Demonic, Magus, coin, typhons, warlocks, myrddin, divine, deso, stone of binding. There is so much flat pen, % pen, and % damage in this game now, that can be built together, that when combined, a tank is simply not a tank. I'm also certain I'm missing some items I am someone who believes in this cycle. Hunters/mage adcs/aa assassins should be the only gods able to obliterate tanks normally, mages should one shot hunters and assassins, assassins should one shot mages/hunters, tanks should be able to tank mages and assassins. Now the cycle is basically everything obliterates tanks, including other tanks due to phys tanks being able to get void shield/heartseeker, magi tanks getting void stone, estaff, magus, etc.
Titans is generally ass on most ability hunters now, its only good on Neith/Heim/Chiron cause of their hard hitting ults and potentially AMC if built ability focused. Ullr doesent make amazing use of it, while the axe does some damage the bulk of it is his Bow 1 + 3.
@@kriegaone3658 most of the time you're using the 1 or 3 by itself mid-late game, saving the axe for self peel. Titans and exe aren't gotten on most adcs nowadays because....they don't need them. Yous till get 40% from wind demon, failnot, atalantas. The titans change made assassins better vs solo laners, as well as heartseeker buffs.
About mail of renewal-- in the SPL the pros picked it up only when the other team had no antiheal items. A single antiheal item would render mail of renewal to simply a health item with no other benefits. Especially in today's game, sustain seems to be the meta and so although it is good, it's also VERY situational and the enemy team is most likely to have built antiheal.
Feels good to see Mail be used, have always liked it even if I don’t use it all that often. The Reinforced Boots is something I’m waiting for, especially because if you stack Thebes it really helps early on compared to Travellers.
The Tank should only be worried about hunters, that's how the triangle works, assassins/mages beat hunters, hunters beat tanks, tanks can run in on or control assassins and mages. the fact that most of the enemy team can easily stack 40% pen without losing anything is not OK or healthy for the game. As a support/tank main, it has never been less fun to play than it is right now, because 3 people have 40% pen and even a solo laner can pick up Titans bane or Heartseeker and still pop some decent damage through. Hunters going heavy into crit is not new, its been a crit meta for a while now and these changes made it even worse because Atalantas bow is your one stop shop for everything you need.
@@mattc4284 Lol yes my first thought! Don't get me wrong I have initiated without paying attention to where my teammates are before...I'm human. But man it is frustrating when people can and don't follow up.
I actually didn't realize the point about pen being spread out amongst different characters. Previously, tank-melting was the domain of _purely_ AA-based hunters and the occasional hypercarry mage. Now, tanks are getting bursted for the first time in a while by assassins and ability hunters, as well as more mages. They're not used to dying _that fast,_ I think, and that might be contributing to a lot of the frustration.
Tanks were already somewhat getting bursted by ability hunters though? Pre mid season they still had heartseeker and against 200+ prot tanks, old Titans bane would scale to 40% pen?
@@kriegaone3658 pre-midseason tank builds didn't feature quite as much health, so Heartseeker didn't hit as hard, and Titan's Bane was often skipped in favor of bursting squishy targets with flat pen iirc?
@@dragontyron Only extra health we're seeing now is Gaia (mainly in Solo) and Sledge (mainly on warriors). Titans Bane was absolutely not skipped... The meta ability hunter build pre mid season ran in high level ranked and SPL was trans boots crusher jotunns heartseeker titans bane. Now, its something along the lines of trans boots crusher fail not heartseeker atalantas/titans or similar.
playing support seems fine i havnt had too much issue but solo is a whole other story. I main solo and i went from killing the jungle every time they visit to barely winning lane. RIP glad shield u will be missed
30-40% pen + new % damage items in serrated edge and Spear of the Magus and crits everywhere with 3 crit items on a build being more than viable (now we can always sell boots late game), yes, tanks are struggling more than ever before. We have many more damaging options in play than before, but defensive items haven't received the same treatment, we have the arthurian shield (can't remember the name) as the most recent addition/frequent pick on supports? Couple that the healer have fewer heals in the changes to healing being stronger only during fights.
th-cam.com/video/QzjBvp8GED8/w-d-xo.html - Showing you there's less total percent pen than before btw. Just now its a constant 40% pen for below 200 prot targets. Magus also got a recent nerf, so its not broken early game. Crit builds get countered by spectral to some extent.
I also think that adding more items that give damage mitigations would be great like Wingblade, get 10% mitigation when it cleanses a slow for 1 second Witchblade, get 1% damage mitigation for each basic attack you take, stacks up to 10% and lasts 2 seconds Add a magical defense item that helps vs magical ADCs Add more hp/magical defense items that give CDR And slightly nerf heartseeker/soul reaver An item that gives you hp (like renewal) when hit by a crit would also be great Also maybe an item version of upgraded thorns, don't add the reflect, but make it an item that negates or reduces the lifesteal from attacks that hit you
Damage mitigations are broken and if not done VERY carefully would make tanks unbelievably tanky and there being gods with mitigation makes those liable to get very high levels of mitigation
A defensive item that actually helps against mage adcs would be lovely. Watching spl I was trying to think of itemization to help defeat Freiya and its not great. Runic took nerfs and then anti tank buffs rolled through
@@OmaeWaMark I agree with you i used a support build I like to call Tankquilles and recently I absorbed over 80k dmg mitigated while the dmg taken was somwhere around 24-48k can't recall the exact amount but have the pictures around there.
well, % mitigation is a broken and dangerous mechanic. but it is so healing, lifesteal, % power increase, movement speed and % health damage / % penetration. and we have more of all that bullshit than actual fun items. so we might aswell be able to use some % mitigation to recover some bulkiness
Solo lane has the most impact it has in years. Solo has been an irrelevant role for a long time. It was difficult to do anything out of solo before the midseason patch. It is much, much easier to kill an ADC/mage lategame as a solo laner now than it was two months ago. You just have to play smarter than you did before, because you take a bit more damage than before.
@@Loj84 That's because right now you are forced to build more damage because you can't soak damage effectively. In my opinion tankiness it's extremely good in early game but it's just bad in late game because the pen and damage items are so good right now. The should nerf defense in early game and pen in late game.
@@danelsanchez2418 A month ago you were forced to build more damage in solo to have any impact on the game. Hunters would still shred with exe. If anything, hunters could shred you harder then than they can now, because one item would give them 36% shred and they had more room for other items in their build like crit and lifesteal. So a month ago vs now, you still got shred hard. You still had to build damage. The main difference is that before, you had to build mediocre damage items that still left you in a bad spot lategame. Now, there are actual good bruiser/damage items for warriors and guardians that give them real kill potential and impact lategame. You can actually hit back now, whereas before you just got boned.
@@apostolosnikolis5281 Solo lane is much more interesting now than it was before. Mages and assassins, other than a couple, are not played in solo much at high levels. It is still mostly warriors, with some guardians. Before, those two warriors just proxy'd waves as soon as possible because they had too much sustain and no hope of killing each other in lane. That was uninteresting and very dumb play. Now, with less sustain and more damage, you can actually outplay and kill the enemy solo laner. When lategame comes, you have some protections and sustain, but you have to use your skill to stay alive. In return, you can finally do damage and kill people. That takes a lot more skill, and is a lot more fun, than the previous mindless damage sponging while trying to annoy the enemy. That was all solo usually did before. Annoy and disrupt. That was not fun, and did not require much skill either.
I can definitely feel the difference through out the game damage wise, and while 1v1 may not be a big change those teamfight bursts are actually rediculous. I've opted for building around 150 each def on solos now just to help tone down the effectiveness of percent pen, or building items with mitigations over prot, Onis and Spirit robe. But yeah tanks are in fact getting blown up compared to before, it just comes down to these characters being more team reliant than before..
Being more tanky for other roles just means you can afford to make more mistakes but for supports, being more tanky is essential in and of itself to protect your team.
Personally, I don't feel too squishy whenever I play support or solo. I definitely like bruiser builds more than full tank 99% of the time, so a meta where those are the go-to is one I'm usually ok with.
Solution idea, just add percent mitigation to some items. Only like 5% on some items and it goes up to 15-20%. Then tanks can not only build flat armour but something help tanking besides armour and health. Similar to how you get pen as a dd but for tanks
I think you brushed right past Atlanta's bow being a light version of fatalis with 20% flat pen, and many auto attack items getting heavily buffed on top of nemian getting nerfed and shell getting a counter. So effectively: ADC are getting high damage and utility AND, lifesteal AND, %Pen ANNND, High crit, when you used to need to pick a lane, not just get all the stats via osmosis of pen being put everywhere. To top that off auto attack counter options all just got nerfed/changed or have counters, im not saying its bad but ability gods are having a bowl of struggle O's when they get lv1 invaded by arachne every game.
I just played in a conquest against a team that ran two physcial hunters, they destroyed our whole team with no problem. Our guardian tank built defense but could not last longer than a few seconds. Same with our warriors. :(
@@heroicnerd2463 What did their hunters build? Because from what I know, Hunter's now have less overall pen currently than compared to pre mid season with pre nerf Exe + Titan's. And did your tanks even build like nemean / midgardian / witchblade ?
It's kind of been on and off with tanks on smite, sometimes I feel very strong, at other times I feel useless. I think it's a better situation for tanks because it really makes you think smarter when engaging. Also, I think it's because players over the years of smite have grown a lot smarter with team fighting, which gives tank less room for error, which is healthy. But I do miss the Season 4 days lol.
Well it depends. Some games people refuse to buy pen like refuse to buy anti heal and wards then it feels like tanks are immortal. But when you finally meet randoms who have a brain, buy pen, antihero AND wards then everyone dies faster walking on a bug. It all depends on the teammates and communication
Honestly my favourite season as support was the Ne zha/Fenrir with Horrific, with how much preassure you had to create to invade the purple it made the laning phase fun.
These changes to pen have made me feel like a relic bot with relic dagger on some tanks with some cc as a bonus because it’s just not useful enough to build more auras because without cloaks and more selfish defence items I’ll die too fast to be useful and if I build some hybrid and add damage items the damage I do will be useless when one basic will heal all that and more with the lifesteal people have even through 80% counter healing. A lot of games it’s fine and doesn’t feel too different on most tanks but against some gods abusing Hecate or Quins I just get shredded in 2-3 seconds without a chance or counter if I’m even a basic attack away from my team
All my friends HATE the meta. My support friend is close to quitting. I find myself building for passives and not really defenses now. An adc walking around with 80% crit, 40% pen, semi-fatalis, and attacking at high attack speed is very hard to tank. I've found that more people who didn't like support like support now but the less aggressive support mains hate the game right now. I'm aggressive though. :)
I think that there needs to be more counter options. Both to crit and raw pen. Had several gamer where I’ve been the tank and just got deleted by the right trigger holding hunter.
i mean you have a point with the damage being spread out i personally see that as a problem. i forgot the exact wording on this but there was a cycle of how roles interacted with each other, like for example assassins counter mages, mages counter hunters, hunters counter, tanks, tanks counter assassins. but with this patch it feels like thats out the window and now tanks dont have any use. ive been playing alot of support and i was surprised how useless i was. before id go in get some cc on maybe get some follow up and disengage, alternatively, id stay with my carry constantly peeling and blocking damage but now its like i die either way. also tiny note i feel like your spamming your ares chains too much, try weaving autos in so you dont have to constantly worry about the timing.
I agree with the reinforced boots being underrated. They are very helpful. Not too long a ago I was Achilles up against dots/as comp. Instead of power boots I went reinforced as a result instead of being eaten alive by the Arachne. I out mitigated her damage.
I disagree with both sides like you but in a different way. Most people aren't buying lots of penetration and when they do it's not that good anyway. Shredding like 80 protections from a tank sounds like a lot but it's really not. Say you build for 40% penetration that's only reducing their actual mitigations by 10%-15%. The reason tanks are getting blown up is because these pen items have tons of other good stats like serrated and lots of characters suddenly became really strong this patch. Penetration is not the problem (if there even is a problem).
I will say that I think tanks/supports could be amped up a fair bit, namely Guardian supports, while they have better CC the majority of them lack the damage and sustain abilities to make them viable counters to their Warrior counterparts, that being said, having a more specialized build is definitely super strong right now, heck I'd argue the most underrated tank item out there is Shogun's Kusari.
Ok so I have a question. What build would you recommend on a Fafnir or sobek you know more aggressive supports? I used to run with a bruiser build power boots void stone and the like, but due to me dieing everytime I went in I recently switched to a more health/hp5 build and it's been going better I guess. I don't die as much which is good but I'm just.... IDK missing the damage/aggression the busier build gave me. Maybe I should try playing warriors? I hear their more aggressive then guardians, might fit my playstyle more IDK. Any help would be appreciated
CDR boots > Thebes > Sov > Void Stone / Shogun's > Ethereal > Spectral/Mantle > sell boots for Magus or Reaver. Or with the recent Stone of binding buff you can also try the previous build but get binding just before Thebes.
I feel like the potential to shred tank are worse than before (40% pen + 20% on one skill) but from what I have see, people build nowadays more into hp than protection and most dmg role don’t concentrate that much on pen % . But one thing for sure is that you can’t build as much « full tank » than before.
As a Solo main, my main struggle as a tank is honestly not that I get bursted down faster and more that Solo is just kinda wack rn imo. This is mostly in casuals because of lack of Drafting phase but really, everything is "broken" in Solo. Guardians have good bruiser items in general and hasn't changed much, Lifesteal Mages get Hecate and/or Typhons build and sustain infinitely in lane, AA Assassins can run full damage with Golden Blade and judt out clear, and Warriors Other than King Arthur, pretty much the rest of the Warriors didn't get much of a net hit in effectiveness. Sledge is the go-to item now similar to pre-price increase Blackthorn, Soul Eater was good on SWK and he still is, and Gaia even got a few posts on Reddit about it being broken (hint: it's probably not). Either way, I'll still use late game teamfight Warriors like Ama or Guan and of course my actual Solo Main Baron. Anyway yes, this isn't relevant much to the vid since it was more for Support but y'know... I don't have an actual excuse so I guess my tip is buy Sledge 2nd~4th item.
Sledge and caduceus shield are the only good items on warriors, there is so little variety of items, but I always prefered guardians anyway (mainly because of the boots)
The problem is that without exe you they have all pen from the first shot so if u get cc (and in this game every one has a stun) you are dead even if you are full defense, more than before but this very problem was already there. Now with all the movement speed nerfs and the fact that every body has percent pen plus spear you can't play a full defense support and feel good about it. You have to play a more aggressive dmg focus play style or you are straight up getting less value from your gold if you aren't herc or xin or some other really hard to kill God. Geb and silvanus are in a really bad spot for example.
I think it’s more annoying that pen is like anti heal. There’s not really much you can do about it despite using niche items like midguardian to get away from hunters or AA gods and CCR which can support in escapes. Tanks are definitely in the lower end this time around but I do think it was necessary being guardians were taking too long to kill unnecessarily and warriors could just do too much and escape hardly unscathed.
Except you can mitigate pen by building more health (to some degree) and building damage mitigation (e.g. Spirit Robe, Oni Hunter's passives). Or you can itemise into bruiser/damage items so you can be more than just a bullet sponge.
@@Loj84 it really depends. Shoguns is great if you have an AA based team, but again also depends on the god you're playing. For example, combined with fafnir's stim it's pretty good. Also genji's, the cooldown is great and can be hard to get into a good support build sometimes, so I see the argument. BUT, mitigation is taken into account after protections/pen/prot reduction. You take the number after all of that and reduce it by a percentage. When you're in the middle of a team fight, the centre of attention as a guardian usually is, taking 9% less damage is so impactful to getting out alive, plus it has health and CCR, and the longer you stay alive, the longer you can help your team stay alive, and the more resources the other team puts into killing you.
I'm a Cerberus main and even with the recent changes, Spear of the magus is still a perfect match for him. It allows you to bully Bellona and Chtulhu among others during most of the game. Just build accordingly to your enemy. Some anti heal if they go full on healing or do some healing items if you want sustain while always getting Max CDR if possible since Cerberus has really long cooldowns in his abilities and you can basically dominate Solo. I've also been playing Baba Yaga Solo and it's fun but the power Cerberus brings to the table I think is being ignored and that's a shame because he still feels like a tank and I haven't felt squishy at any given time even when I recklessly go into the enemy team with thorns "on" in hopes of catching most with my ultimate for my team to kill. Like 7 or 8/10 times I can get out of that with half my health, heal and go back in order to secure an objective, kill or whatever my team needs
Cerberus is trash no offence though. I'm sure you're amazing with him though, but there are better picks. Ares does the same things as him better safer and easier and also counters his jump.
Magus doesent really bully them early now though? 2600 gold now and its only a 7% increase in damage or so for yourself. Its mainly good for teamfight stage now.
@@kriegaone3658 true Ares doesn't have an escape but he runs people down a lot easier than cerb and his damage is easier to confirm imo. Maybe trash is a bit strong but I just hate his ult it's just to easy to escape from you don't even need to beads it most of the time.
Some guardians do too much damage and I think that has made hi rez nerfed tank items too much. Granted ares, ymir, gods like that I think are in a good place, they're like bruiser supports. But fafnir, terra, sobek, these gods have plenty of cc and team fight kits while still being able to half health squishies by themselves. I think tanks like that need to be changed with their power scaling and protection. I also think Guardians need to get speciality items like the katanas so that they could be better balanced around being a damage soaker/ setup god. Also a lot of guardians are either really hard to kill, or the enemy has a Merlin and you die in 2 seconds. I just feel like with all the power creep in the game guardians need a bit of a buff in the defense department and a nerf in the damage department.
Tanks are way to squishy, I get that they buffed pen coz of the old tank meta and you couldn’t really die, but they need to balance them a lot more. I spend most conquests games in support as a tank and honestly I’ve moved over to be a dps support as a result of being too squishy, if I build protections early I can help the carry until lv3-5 but as soon as a T1 pen item gets brought my two physical protection items go out the window.
Well tanks are just buff/cc machines, as long as they can take a few hits and get their cc off they are in good state. Personally, I find that WARRIORS are in a shit state because a lot of them lack CC and with damage increasing and their scaling always being shit, they often just get booped out of a teamfight if they have no real sustain.
Two things. Potential outro? th-cam.com/video/4cn_woPvjQI/w-d-xo.html 2nd My friend said the same thing. Alot of it is the magicals. Physical damage hasnt really changed.
I dunno. I've been playing Support cabrakan lately and I've been just fine. Maybe that's because of his shadow zone passive but I always get away. With about 200 health. Hercules and Ares are still pretty tanky too
A general rule of thumb for a support rotating mid is when your carry A) begins stacking/can clear the wave on their own/level 6/about 10 to 12 minutes into the game. B) when your carry is a level or two up on the enemy carry/you've taken teir 1 earlier than normal. C) your mid is being camped by the enemy jungle/feeding horribly. Your mid rotation should essentially dictate the begining of the mid game, and your goal is to ultimately get the gold fury as soon as possible. If its C be sure to ward for your carry as the jungler could just move over to that lane and camp instead. And do your best to leave your carry alone, let your jungle rotate to him for help while you stay mid, however if there is a teamfight you are the backbone to that fight, be sure to watch your map and ward, and encourage your mid to rotate with you if your carry is getting 1v4ed.
Just a side note, remember that your carry is always your number 1 priority, however you are not the beacon of their success, a good support should also have general knowledge of carry gods and builds to kind of understand how the lanes going to go. Some carrys start out very slow, some start very aggressive with core items to suit their style. And honestly if they're doin somethin crazy build wise, and they aren't playing smart it's a GREAT idea to just try to forget that guy and support the rest of your team, as he will play off you so if he ever gets his stuff together late game then the rest of your team will still be up to par, rather than investing in someone that cant really deliver. The same goes for a mid laner. Put your influence where you'll have the best impact, not necessarily where ever people are feeding. Also while rotating you should be securing jungle farm for your team and putting wards on objectives, call missing enemies sometimes that's the best support you can offer.
I have been having a ton of fun with Cu Cu in support. Sledge is easily one of my favorite items ever in this game. Im gonna try some new stuff out that you mentioned here.
Ok i have to stop you right there. I dont think tanks are squishy from pen. I think they are squishy from ease of stopping a build. Physical defense? Pen/attack speed/lifesteal. Magical defense? DoT/pen. Try to get a big healthpool? Heartseeker/qins/soul reaver. I understand needing counters but the minute mid/late game hits as a tank your damage is nonexistent and so is your defense. You get killed as quickly as the dps
The issue is, is that 79% of games are just arena on a conquest map, especially at lower ranks people don't know what they are meant to be doing, people tunnel vision on kills and get in awful positions. The support is not meant to be some brain dead body blocker.
it's worth noting that the damage characters _will_ finish their builds before the supports will. Supports have the benefit of seeing what the enemy is building and counterbuilding them. See the mage has picked up Soul Reaver? Don't spec too hard into hp. See the hunter is doing a crit build? _You_ have the initiative and can simply counter it with defense items and Nemean.
I see a lot of people saying that tanks require skill now instead of soaking damage but what I see is that playing hunters mages and assassins just got easier when basically everything has pen in some way or another
plus don't forget Crit is just so fuck op right now..... can't be a tank went you get crited to death by a 65% crit or 100% if you are jing...like evey game I just see crit get pick up and like 2 pen items ( sorry if this was like a rant I just hate crit right now )
@@jdglavin The amount of crit in your build doesen't affect the damage, just how likely you are to crit. But 100% crit builds are easier to get now yes.
I mean, the tank builds didnt really change much, just warriors build sledge now, shields are gone, sometimes solo laners picking up gaia for sustain. Supports don't really build too differently.
I don't think its balanced for every other role in the game to actively want to build 30% pen whether or not there is alot of tanks in the game with th new item changes it just makes tank builds bad. But at the same time its an excuse to just build hybrid items in support so I like it.
TL;DR: Tanks are too squishy, there needs to be a trade off for the pen like there was for titans bane, trade power for pen One of the big problems is that they may not get much more pen now, but the pen is built naturally into items that already being built, so they don't lose anything for the same pen. then Atalanta's and fail-not build is basically fixed by quin sais. Nemian is good-ish but the jury is still out and two hits against an auto-attacker gives you less then a second of survival in reality. Reinforced grieves are good, I use them on occasion but with the pen changes I go with travelers boots or ccr boots. Support is not fun right now, I've always counter built my tanks and found a lot of success with them, I died, had low amount of kills but I was able to keep people alive and save the adc/mage a death on many occasions, but now I die so quickly to pen/crit builds that its no longer fun to play pure tanks and it doesn't help to lower my def to increase damage because I'll more often be too dead to do damage not to mention that most guardians have horrible scaling anyway, in noncompetitive, I have seen hunter-mage in duo too often since this change. Tanks are viable in the pro leagues, but I play tank to TANK not to be a bruiser, I don't like being a bruiser most the time except when I'm playing my main boy Ares, but if I'm rolling a Sobek, Fafnir or Athena, I want to tank and body block for the hunter and get into the faces of the enemy and make them panic and break them up so the assassin can kill them before they can do too much damage. now I can't play that mind game, now I don't do damage and die quickly I think the pen system is good, but there needs to be something traded for it, throwing pen on items that everyone was already building so basically mid/carry got a free extra item in most cases and didn't sacrifice any power what so ever and because they don't necessarily need executioner/ titan's bane or Soul Reaver they are able to build more power so even with a 30% pen and 100+ more power it more then makes up for that lacking 10% pen and melt tanks just as quickly as a armor-less squishy. there needs to be a trade off in some fashion. until this is fixed, I shall be staying out of the duo lane as much as I can because it doesn't feel like I can play in the way a tank is suppose to be played and see a duo lane of Mage/hunter meta is going to emerge which I want nothing to do with
I think they should just decrease the overall damage to what it used to be. I don't really like getting 1 shot as any character by Scylla, Janus, morigan and pretty much every mage. Even ADC shreds (i know that's what they are supposed to do) even though you build full physical armour to counter them. Honestly, every god does too much damage. It got to the point that I build attack speed and hastended katanas on hercules and become unstoppable.
Cthulhu, Jorm, Yemoja.These are not tanks,these are mage.Hi-rez has no idea how to make a support, if they make a support, they do it based more on the damage than on the tank itself.But yeah a hercules full hp build is more tanks than one that needs pure support.This is worrying.The tank in this season is very delicate
the problem isn t only mid patch. mid patch just broke the bag. this started in season 6, when titans and obsidian got buffed from 33% to 45% (against tanks). then they changed quin sais from 4% health to 3-5 depending to health (5% against tanks), then tehy buffed qin sais and exe stats. they buffed demons ring. they changed void stone from 10 reductio to 10% reduction, void shield from 15 to 15%, they released toxic blade (less healing, less bulkiness) they buffed cursed aang, they release contagion (which is a defensive item, but which purpose is to reduce tankiness by reducing healing). thats season 6. then they buffed all healers stats to pay for that. but for supports only buffed sobek and fafnir (which both got nerfed worse than before after that) then season 7 changes soul reaver to be more lethal against tanks, releases hearthseeker, an assassin skill based item against tanks, then they change magical pen so you don t need to actually build obsidian anymore, and buff all anti tank magic items, then they destroyed nemeal as an anti carry item and nerfed thorns, then they release the new crit item which also has anti healing, buff aang and thunder so is better against tanks, and then they make so physicals can reach titans levels of penetration without actually having to buy a statwise bad item. thar broke the camels back. would you buy breastplate if it gave to you 37 defense? build stone of gaia if that increase of ~10% of your late game health means receiving 10% more damage? or would you rather build ethereal staff, divine ruin, soul reaver, spear of the magus and spear of desolation on characters made to be full tank, because their stats are reliable, and not a redundant mess like crowd control reduction is? because thats what it is now. yes, more characters are viable in support, but do you really think an anubis or a baka are actual supports? i mean, why u want them to be viable in support? they have their own lines, and it isn t like we want a geb on solo sitting under his tower, do we? do you liked as a solo when it was meta building support items and waiting until min 20 on solo without actually fighting? well, then i don t like to take care of 4 walking nukes to protect my carry when the rotation of 4 guys on duo occurs when any of these 4 guys can delete me alone in less than 3 seconds it feels like support isn t a thing anymore, and its more like "the solo who puts himself behind cuz there is only 3 lines" they did all the possible changes to bring down supports, and they got it. now kepri support is as viable as loki support, congratulations. this line has no purpose anymore. and for the % argument, nearly everyone reach 40% if theres only one tank, as these items are absurldy efficient, even without pen. assasins get 2-3 of these titans/heartseeker/soul eater/atalantas; adcs get 3 of these fail-not/wimd demon/atalantas/titans (ask medusas)/heartseekers (ask ullrs, chirons, hou yis...) warriors get 2 of these void shield (its reduction, not pen but is 15% and they give it to all team, so even worse)/gladiators (if they re sad arthurs)/soul eater/ titans bane/ heartseeker and mages have charonte+soul reaver+built int % pen (vulcan, scylla, merlin...) and i m not talking about magical adcs. while all thar happens, support have gauntlet of thebes, nemeal lion, bruiser items and pen items. and the last of them aren t support items...
well i understand that you think it doesnt matter much with some nerf and buffs on physical items but i disagree man. having only adc as a threat is much better than having 2-3 threats for tanks making it a little frustrating if u ask me and thats mostly bcs the number of offensive items grows when tanks dont get much new ones for utility purposes so they struggle. also now having so many % pen items between physicals and magicals is kinda broken. another problem is definitely freya, no matter what you build u cant lock her or tank her that much being strong and broken are kinda different things. also adcs with inbuild pen or buffs also cause so much problem. having 2 stacks of block from namean means literally nothing against freya or rama, also tanks dont have a legit anticrit item. mail of renewal is always a favorite of mine especially with kuzenbo or some other aggressive supports havin hp, cd and hp5 with great sustain for long battles if your team can secure kills. another problem that i already talked about is flex pick or unique gameplay gods which are hard to balance. well cthulu, mulan, yemoja, freya, and most of the new gods is kinda jack of all trades and master of none imo which cause also confusion in gameplay and roles. hi rez needs to make a few new gods with clear roles if you ask me. im glad to have options for %pen for mages and hunters but with magical hunters being a thing its too harsh. maybe they can nerf attack speed on magical adc items so they will need to buy some neutral attack speed items like dagger or something so they trade power for attack speed at least. only thing i know its definitely feel bad being a tank right now except a few. i dont want dmg on tanks they can nerf it to ground i dont care starting from early mid but they definitely need to make them live for more than 2 seconds at least in team fights.
Just nerf the damage on the percent pen items. Makes no sense that you can always run the same build to shred tanks and still blow up squishies. The nerf to soul reaver helps. But still need damage nerfs on several items like heartseeker.
Why do you think so many warriors and mages are being picked as supports? Its the problem where being tanky is never enough so you need gods with more damage/aggressive kits, I for one hated Nox, Nezha and Freya support in the past.
Utility and survivability are more valuable now,so if youre a support getting blown up in teamfights then you need to rethink your play style and actually learn the roll and not be just big man with big health
I feel that current state of support is prolly the best one since i started playing the game for 3 reasons: 1. Pen changes force you to build more HP than prots to max out your effective health, opening up more item choices 2. Damage feels more "spread out" evenly instead of being delivered in big bursts, allowing for non-tank supports to actually exist in this game. Picks like baron, aphro and other healers feel much more powerful cause they can build a mage-bruiser build with items like emperor crown that allows minions to tank for you or stone of binding or harons coin witch gives you a lot of useful stats, and from my testing even some control mages with specific high damage build can work, like soul gem+emperor+magus god of demonetization or soul gem+pytagorem anubis 3.Due to how % pen interacts with squishier targets (for example 40% pen won't give as much as 4 items with 10 pen each vs an adc or mage) all forms of sustain (heals, shields etc) become much more useful, witch might open a way for support builds focused on them, allowing for something similiar to enchanter type supps from LoL to exist in smite
I don’t think that’s the point he was trying to make because in his words as support your job is to drain resources. Taking an ult or two would count as doing that, but getting relics or escapes would also fall under that category. You simply cannot walk into a team fight and face tank everything and walk out alive anymore, and in the cases where the enemy team went tank buster(before 7.7) and you die from the barrage of abilities and you only got their ults? They could still have the relics to get out and have your team waste resources to compensate. In my opinion, his point was that there is more to the role that just being a sponge.
I don't like these changes sure there more to play a u can build some damage but it make engaging for the team so much more risky and I don't like that if I'm just a second slower I can go from play maker to dead in no time at all but that's just me.
In this comment section, we'll find out who actually watched the video and who just read the title ;)
Im pretty much title until i can 😛
Im still trying to figure out how did this lead to my defensive items being nerfed and mages being buffed. Even if i do build and play appropriately where is the counterplay for crit. I have gone full support on cthulu and get shred before i take 5 steps just admit theres no merit to building tank whatsoever. Its whoever gets their damage off first and who has better CC. None of these changes were needed and i wouldnt mind building HP if hunters werent building heart seeker on a full crit build or my favorite obsidian Soul reaver rod of tahutti. People keep talking about the pro league but i dont think pro league is the ones bringing in most of the money or the ones dictating which T5 gets selected. As a tank main who has diamond nearly all the guardians and warriors i think ik a little bit more than someone who plays a more damaging role.
i still think there has to be more conditional protection items, items with mixed stats and more variances in both magical and physical protection realm.
The problem I'm finding is the lack of people knowing how to teamfight.. before as a tank during a fight, if I dove and got no follow up I'd sigh shake my head and walk away. Now. If my whole team is behind me and I engage, and they decide to go take a side camp or just clear wave for NO REASON. I die. And it really pisses me off.
The games where I drastically just eat garbage I've noticed that the enemy team is always stuck together like glue, while my team is seperated in the jungle/lanes or deaths are being staggered and before as a support you could defend much easier but these changes just prevented tanks from slowing anything down pace wise.. which again is frustrating, but yeah it's a teamfight thing, not a tank thing.
@@clouded-glory
>full support Cthulhu
I don't wanna be that guy, but I think that's your problem, with that particular character. He might have some bonus kit-based mitigations, but trying to use him like a normal support is asking to get turned into a pincushion with nothing to show for it.
I think frost said it best "you were a cow not a support" and it honestly made support have more gods more viable
I think it’s both honestly. Tanks were too strong but the solution wasn’t increase the total damage in the game
And guardians less viable in any lane
Yeah, but u still a massive target, with no movement abilities and short range abilities.
Being in the face of ppl is how u are expected to play these guardians.
Anyways, what good is pure support in a level of play where there is basically no team play, at least if the guardian is tanky, they can take hits for a teammate, or delay an outnumbered situation.
Oni hunters garb was an impactful item because it brought percent mitigation which was augmented by protections. Now there is too much damage in the game and onis doesn’t mean anything anynore
Moo
The tanks being as "squishy" as they are now is a build-up from years and years of Smike being alive. It didn't just happen suddenly.
I've been playing since Season 0. Where an item that gave you 750 PLUS 15% of your maximum health 1850 gold. And then you can add another item for another 2850 gold. Why do you think the maximum amount of health a character could have is 5500? Because it was actually obtainable at multiple points throughout Smite's history. This was a time where Artemis was the ONLY hunter for a good period of time. When actual hard CC abilities were rare to come across. The only penetration items that really existed for a good while were Obsidian/Titans and Void Stone/Shield.
Tanks were REALLY tanky back in season 0 and season 1. Pretty much every defensive item in the game also tacked on health, and the pure health items gave out a lot of health. This wash changed because people didn't like that. But for tanks to do their job, they have to be tanky. But no one wants to sit around and hit a damage sponge all day while they CC you to death, so their overall CC was toned down. But of course tanks did no damage so you could pretty much ignore them. Then HiRez increased the tank's based damage on their moves so that you couldn't just simply ignore them.
There's a lot more to this but I'm paraphrasing a lot since I'd be here forever. The main draw is that there used to be a Triangle of sorts. Tanks beat Junglers because junglers did all their damage in a burst and Tanks can handle burst damage. Junglers had to build very specific items to shred tanks, but this led to the issue of them not being able to deal with carries as well. Jungler's beat carries because carries have a problem handling sudden burst damage. And then we had the carries (inhand) beating tanks because tanks could handle burst, but not consistent damage. In a way, this triangle does still exist in a way, but not nearly to the effect of early Smite.
The main problem with support/solo mains feeling squishy is that HiRez is now making it so that these "tank shredding" items are now part of a standard build where as before gods had to build into them. And also before, Tanks can build health and defense easily. Now they either have to do one or the other for the most part. Yes, in ways you can still end up with 3K health and 250+ defenses but you won't reach that until very late game where as in early smite, you could reach that mid game with no effort.
Very well said
Hard agree as someone who's been playing since S1 dropped. Tanking feels progressively worse each season too because damage items get much more bloated stats in comparison, and since defense and health are linear stats vs multiplicative scaling, the numbers tend to lean in favor of damage.
Mate, from what you say I get that you never even touched solo or that you also "hate" warriors. The problem solo mains have is this: "IN ORDER TO WIN, PICK MAGE OR ASSASSIN, USE A BRAINDEAD DAMAGE BUILD AN YOU WIN. ZERO STRATEGY, ZERO COUNTERPLAY, ZERO FRONTLINE" I hope, I was clear because you seem to lash out against solo players but you don't understand why we are upset
@@apostolosnikolis5281 Who are you talking to?
@@BasedChadman the guy that wrote the original comment
I dont mind a adc killing me, i dont like when a assasin jump on me and eat halve my health.
or the whole thing if he has an anti-tank item
Yes
Support on smite are not support anymore
@@Hezzai yeah, they killed a whole playstyle
Its not just supports, we solo layers are just building more damage since 1 mage ability or an assassin jumping on us kills us anyway.
(Speaking as a joust main) I think they are. I’ve been thinking the problem is not pen or %pen in itself, but the fact that a god can build big pen without sacrificing other stats since a lot of seemingly random items just got %pen tacked on to them with either no nerfs or only minor nerfs. Like when I play mage, I usually like to build Pythagoras and Typhon’s to get all my lifesteal, a huge chunk of power, and 20% pen from a cheap item and a mid price item.
*me playing highly offensive cabrakan*.... I don't get it, I'm yeeting ppl just fine?
I think part of a major design flaw is simply coming out with these changes: balancing tanks in the current meta is difficult because tanks deal too much base damage.
When a tank can stack defense and run people down trading in their favor against multiple opponents, the balance is unfun. However, not having the option to soak or being gimped because you want to be a full tank is also unfun.
The clear defining factor here is that the most popular roles in the game are carry roles, so the opinions of carry mains are heard more and validated more by the community.
Those people are happy to be able to melt anything that comes near them just as tanks are happy to soak anything that comes near them. It's a bias that favors the majority in this situation, and the only way to actually fix this upset in the balance is to more clearly define role identity without completely removing flexibility from classes.
Tanks in reference to tanking, got worse. There are starting to be other gods played in support which is fine, but they play a bruiser/hybrid rather than tanking. Now building max protections is worthless, while building maybe 150 to 200 with health is better. I like the damage changes, but as a tank main and not a bruiser main it hurts.
the problem of it working only up to 150-200 is that you still have 3 sloths, and in smite there aren t so much support-non-defense items. so you go damage. and that makes you a bruiser. which means, that you cannot be a total tank
As support rat i build thebes sovernty with prot acorn and then go into stobe cutting sword abd void shield. With a final flex items as needed.
@@Wilsontripplets yeah, rat bruiser is busted xd.
i would recomend more of an caduceus than a sob though. rat is more of a diver more than sticking to his allies, and your living ones can still use caduceus to heal. plus it works with the nuts passive
@@rick2987 does caduces work with his item
@@rick2987 also rat has a protection cap of 358
As a tank main, I surprisingly haven't felt much a difference tbh.
I definitely feel it when an Arachne runs at me with qins sais during my Cthulhu ult and absolutely shreds my eldritch ass though, but aside from that, tanks feel pretty similar to what they did before.
Also we can build damage items on them now and not get scoffed at so that's a plus in my book.
Yea I have felt the same I really think the sledge has encourage alot of warriors to build more health because before the update I would see alot of builds with high prots but not much health
@@alexzab11 The Sledge is honestly blackthorn 2.0 but way more fun imo. I'm amazed it didn't get any nerfs, but I'm not complaining.
Jormy Gormy I hope they dont tbh, seeing as they added pen to damn near every damage item, i’m fine with it making you actually be able to take a hit
@@Jormyyy for shure I wonder if the other hammers might get buffed since there alot more nitch picks
@@alexzab11 I think they're balanced despite being niche. Runeforged is a stupidly strong item that nobody buys for some reason.
Nemean is useless when the enemy has 2.5 attack speed.
Daley t's not really meant to auto attack gods anymore. It's meant to counter auto cancels from gods like Susano now.
yea the nemean nerf was bad, might as well have removed it
@@williamwrobel4928 they done it. and put another item with the same name which neither fits the stats not the lore.
@@williamwrobel4928 if you mean the midseason change, that was a buff. Nemean was dogshit before, ever since the 7.1 nerf that took it from 25% reflect down to 15%. Completely useless. Block stacks are better than that.
Maybe, but when its a cabroken with poly or a strong single hit god with hydras, like da ji and her bleed stim, you are gonna wish you had that block.
Items are too bloated, so many with 3-4 stats many of them cdr or pen + a passive. Remember BoV being expensive and only good for the cdr+phy prot combo?
im sorry but i miss artio.
Same!
Me too, when is she coming back and what happened to her???
@@guilhermeoliveira2048 hopefully she'll return with hera in the tsuko patch but im not really sure.
They announced it on there Twitter God of the moon update August 11th Artio and Hera will return
Why couldn't it have been Loki instead... 😔
TBH tanks or not i have no issue changing the concept of "support" from "super tanky and nothing else" to "i am helping my team".
The pen changes haven't settled in yet so it will take time to build optimally for support again.
If they have a lot of pen you opt for health and mitigations oni hunters(9%) spirit robe (10%), stone of gaia and tank boots have been buffed, also do understand that not many can build quins, so countering health can be difficult for some opponents especially against magical adc's.
Or another playstyle is to go with an aggresive support build binding,magus and ethereal really helps you with that.
TL:DR The meta changed a lot so we need time to adapt with the new builds.
That's why i higly recommend watching channels like this one to help you being informed better.
Also checking out pro players, what the build and how they commentate on changes can really help.
Lots of adcs can build qins, its just not a build focus anymore where you can get crit heavy builds with max pen and a decent amount of attack speed, allowing Qins to be built 6th or 7th.
I think a lot of the frustration is overblown, that being said I think what feels like the biggest problem to me is that % pen is on so many items that many damage dealers get 30-40% without ever intentionally building into pen. I've had assassins and mages who can shred me as a tank despite building purely for squishy burst damage. (In other words too many items are efficient to the point that the pen on them isn't even the reason they're picked up by many players.)
Supports do have tools to survive, and I actually think the current meta is more fun and diverse despite the issues. But that doesn't mean I don't think there are problems with % pen.
Agreed. Saying this as someone who laughs and shakes my head at Atalanta's Bow as I continue to now build it on every hunter, every single game, and never do too badly. It's kind of an unfair item. It could have no passive and I would probably still buy it. The passive makes Executioner's waaay outclassed. Sure Executioner's will help your whole team but it's like. Who cares? With the new Hide of the Nemean, Executioner's can need up to 5 autos to proc. Serrated Edge. I'm not happy they increased the price but it was necessary. It is so bloated. It also has a free 20% penetration. I don't want this item removed. It fills a niche. When tanks are too tanky the game can be unfun. But maybe just 10% pen? Or a stacking mechanic to reward good play? It's hard to say. I don't want all the free pen gone just yet. But I can't deny that I have been buying Atalanta's Bow on almost every hunter build, even full-power/cdr Chiron. Fail-Not is also hard to ignore but at least it is pricey and has a terrible tier 1.
@@rawkhawk414 Atalantas is almost what pre-nerf Executioner was, a must build every game on 90% of hunters. Also you know that old pre-nerf Exe + Titans combo pre-mid season was still more pen against 200+ prot tanks than having maxing pen now? th-cam.com/video/QzjBvp8GED8/w-d-xo.html
Yeah if most the items had flat pen instead it would be better obviously not all items tanks need counters but like foreal
3k Health and 200 protections and you are a tank, when in other MOBA games you can easily reach 5k-6k, ADC can take more damage with life steal than supports at late game
Spitting facts
Tanking in League feels pretty trash as well though tbf. Also in an anti tank meta
Imagine if Spectral Armor got reworked to reflect a percentage% of crit damage
When talking to a friend I posed that hide of the urchin should have a stacking % reflect from any and all damage stacking up with kills and assists to a max 10% less than thorns or kuzen 2 but never on cool down so arguably better for damage sponge supports
@@cryptochronos4099 30% damage reflection? Permanently? No thanks.
@@distraction2803 its not like adcs don t have permanently 30% lifesteal to counter it (in fact, they have nearly double the amount)
@@rick2987 Antiheal exists.
Mages and assassins would get absolutely wrecked as well.
Not all hunters build lifesteal.
I don't think you understand how broken that would be.
@@distraction2803 well, it won t be so much broken as it did exist before, and it was called nemeal lion.
and it isn t like the supports bought it in every match when it still bounced 25% of the damage taken. they bought it just in the niche cases of 2/3 adcs.
and if a hunter dont buy devourers gauntlet /hecate first there are 2 options
A: they don t fight using autos (like ullr) B: they are trolling
even removing the whole lifesteal of these items, they are still busted for their prices. and yes, antihealing exist, but in the actual meta, if the whole 3 items are applied (the adcs item, the assassin item, and the mage item) chances are that not only the adc is dead, but his whole team got nuked
and i supposed it didnt bounce skill damage, as it was implied in the firsr comment, and i though the second had direct relation on that (which didnt). bouncing skill damage would be busted. ask nox
The issue isn't really penetration vs supports. Or rather, it isn't JUST penetration vs supports. Also, more importantly, the solo laners are being impacted by these changes more, they normally didn't have enough prots for old titans to be that strong, now they're always being effected by 30-40%, 60% with titans new passive for an ability.
With 7.7 we got more build variety from the hunter role and assassins got buffed.
Let's go over tanks and what makes them less tanky.
Phys: Heartseeker, Qins, Exe, Titans, Atalantas, Serrated, stone cutting, berserkers, failnot, wind demon, crusher, brawlers, jotunns, asi, void shield
Magical: Estaff, Obshard, Reaver, Demonic, Magus, coin, typhons, warlocks, myrddin, divine, deso, stone of binding.
There is so much flat pen, % pen, and % damage in this game now, that can be built together, that when combined, a tank is simply not a tank. I'm also certain I'm missing some items
I am someone who believes in this cycle. Hunters/mage adcs/aa assassins should be the only gods able to obliterate tanks normally, mages should one shot hunters and assassins, assassins should one shot mages/hunters, tanks should be able to tank mages and assassins.
Now the cycle is basically everything obliterates tanks, including other tanks due to phys tanks being able to get void shield/heartseeker, magi tanks getting void stone, estaff, magus, etc.
Titans is generally ass on most ability hunters now, its only good on Neith/Heim/Chiron cause of their hard hitting ults and potentially AMC if built ability focused. Ullr doesent make amazing use of it, while the axe does some damage the bulk of it is his Bow 1 + 3.
@@kriegaone3658 most of the time you're using the 1 or 3 by itself mid-late game, saving the axe for self peel.
Titans and exe aren't gotten on most adcs nowadays because....they don't need them. Yous till get 40% from wind demon, failnot, atalantas.
The titans change made assassins better vs solo laners, as well as heartseeker buffs.
About mail of renewal-- in the SPL the pros picked it up only when the other team had no antiheal items. A single antiheal item would render mail of renewal to simply a health item with no other benefits. Especially in today's game, sustain seems to be the meta and so although it is good, it's also VERY situational and the enemy team is most likely to have built antiheal.
We only saw renewal one game on Cthulhu to stack health and the one game on Mulan support where as you said they had no antiheal.
Feels good to see Mail be used, have always liked it even if I don’t use it all that often. The Reinforced Boots is something I’m waiting for, especially because if you stack Thebes it really helps early on compared to Travellers.
The Tank should only be worried about hunters, that's how the triangle works, assassins/mages beat hunters, hunters beat tanks, tanks can run in on or control assassins and mages. the fact that most of the enemy team can easily stack 40% pen without losing anything is not OK or healthy for the game. As a support/tank main, it has never been less fun to play than it is right now, because 3 people have 40% pen and even a solo laner can pick up Titans bane or Heartseeker and still pop some decent damage through. Hunters going heavy into crit is not new, its been a crit meta for a while now and these changes made it even worse because Atalantas bow is your one stop shop for everything you need.
the previous titans bane and ob shard gave 40 to 48% protections gone :) you have less protections shredded overal
I personally don’t think they are. I can’t see supports getting any health buff or anything...
if you know how to properly play tank, you should be fine with the help of your teammates.
That also assumes your teammates know how to play too lol
@@mattc4284 Lol yes my first thought! Don't get me wrong I have initiated without paying attention to where my teammates are before...I'm human. But man it is frustrating when people can and don't follow up.
I just posted on a seperate comment this exact thing.
I actually didn't realize the point about pen being spread out amongst different characters. Previously, tank-melting was the domain of _purely_ AA-based hunters and the occasional hypercarry mage.
Now, tanks are getting bursted for the first time in a while by assassins and ability hunters, as well as more mages. They're not used to dying _that fast,_ I think, and that might be contributing to a lot of the frustration.
Tanks were already somewhat getting bursted by ability hunters though? Pre mid season they still had heartseeker and against 200+ prot tanks, old Titans bane would scale to 40% pen?
@@kriegaone3658 pre-midseason tank builds didn't feature quite as much health, so Heartseeker didn't hit as hard, and Titan's Bane was often skipped in favor of bursting squishy targets with flat pen iirc?
@@dragontyron Only extra health we're seeing now is Gaia (mainly in Solo) and Sledge (mainly on warriors). Titans Bane was absolutely not skipped... The meta ability hunter build pre mid season ran in high level ranked and SPL was trans boots crusher jotunns heartseeker titans bane.
Now, its something along the lines of trans boots crusher fail not heartseeker atalantas/titans or similar.
playing support seems fine i havnt had too much issue but solo is a whole other story. I main solo and i went from killing the jungle every time they visit to barely winning lane.
RIP glad shield u will be missed
Soul Eater is your friend
30-40% pen + new % damage items in serrated edge and Spear of the Magus and crits everywhere with 3 crit items on a build being more than viable (now we can always sell boots late game), yes, tanks are struggling more than ever before. We have many more damaging options in play than before, but defensive items haven't received the same treatment, we have the arthurian shield (can't remember the name) as the most recent addition/frequent pick on supports? Couple that the healer have fewer heals in the changes to healing being stronger only during fights.
th-cam.com/video/QzjBvp8GED8/w-d-xo.html - Showing you there's less total percent pen than before btw. Just now its a constant 40% pen for below 200 prot targets. Magus also got a recent nerf, so its not broken early game. Crit builds get countered by spectral to some extent.
I also think that adding more items that give damage mitigations would be great like
Wingblade, get 10% mitigation when it cleanses a slow for 1 second
Witchblade, get 1% damage mitigation for each basic attack you take, stacks up to 10% and lasts 2 seconds
Add a magical defense item that helps vs magical ADCs
Add more hp/magical defense items that give CDR
And slightly nerf heartseeker/soul reaver
An item that gives you hp (like renewal) when hit by a crit would also be great
Also maybe an item version of upgraded thorns, don't add the reflect, but make it an item that negates or reduces the lifesteal from attacks that hit you
Damage mitigations are broken and if not done VERY carefully would make tanks unbelievably tanky and there being gods with mitigation makes those liable to get very high levels of mitigation
@@OmaeWaMark yes I am well aware, that is why my examples are really thought, is 1 and 2 seconds of damage mitigations that are conditional too
A defensive item that actually helps against mage adcs would be lovely. Watching spl I was trying to think of itemization to help defeat Freiya and its not great. Runic took nerfs and then anti tank buffs rolled through
@@OmaeWaMark I agree with you i used a support build I like to call Tankquilles and recently I absorbed over 80k dmg mitigated while the dmg taken was somwhere around 24-48k can't recall the exact amount but have the pictures around there.
well, % mitigation is a broken and dangerous mechanic.
but it is so healing, lifesteal, % power increase, movement speed and % health damage / % penetration.
and we have more of all that bullshit than actual fun items. so we might aswell be able to use some % mitigation to recover some bulkiness
And what about solo laners? In my opinion right now solo lane doesn't have any impact in late game because they can't beat any of the damage dealers.
Solo lane has the most impact it has in years. Solo has been an irrelevant role for a long time. It was difficult to do anything out of solo before the midseason patch.
It is much, much easier to kill an ADC/mage lategame as a solo laner now than it was two months ago. You just have to play smarter than you did before, because you take a bit more damage than before.
@@Loj84 That's because right now you are forced to build more damage because you can't soak damage effectively. In my opinion tankiness it's extremely good in early game but it's just bad in late game because the pen and damage items are so good right now. The should nerf defense in early game and pen in late game.
Now solo laners are dumb dmg builders, no counterplay, no frontline, just pick a mage or assassin, use a brainless dmg build and boom you won
@@danelsanchez2418 A month ago you were forced to build more damage in solo to have any impact on the game. Hunters would still shred with exe. If anything, hunters could shred you harder then than they can now, because one item would give them 36% shred and they had more room for other items in their build like crit and lifesteal.
So a month ago vs now, you still got shred hard. You still had to build damage. The main difference is that before, you had to build mediocre damage items that still left you in a bad spot lategame. Now, there are actual good bruiser/damage items for warriors and guardians that give them real kill potential and impact lategame. You can actually hit back now, whereas before you just got boned.
@@apostolosnikolis5281 Solo lane is much more interesting now than it was before. Mages and assassins, other than a couple, are not played in solo much at high levels. It is still mostly warriors, with some guardians.
Before, those two warriors just proxy'd waves as soon as possible because they had too much sustain and no hope of killing each other in lane. That was uninteresting and very dumb play. Now, with less sustain and more damage, you can actually outplay and kill the enemy solo laner. When lategame comes, you have some protections and sustain, but you have to use your skill to stay alive. In return, you can finally do damage and kill people.
That takes a lot more skill, and is a lot more fun, than the previous mindless damage sponging while trying to annoy the enemy. That was all solo usually did before. Annoy and disrupt. That was not fun, and did not require much skill either.
I can definitely feel the difference through out the game damage wise, and while 1v1 may not be a big change those teamfight bursts are actually rediculous. I've opted for building around 150 each def on solos now just to help tone down the effectiveness of percent pen, or building items with mitigations over prot, Onis and Spirit robe. But yeah tanks are in fact getting blown up compared to before, it just comes down to these characters being more team reliant than before..
Being more tanky for other roles just means you can afford to make more mistakes but for supports, being more tanky is essential in and of itself to protect your team.
Personally, I don't feel too squishy whenever I play support or solo. I definitely like bruiser builds more than full tank 99% of the time, so a meta where those are the go-to is one I'm usually ok with.
Solution idea, just add percent mitigation to some items. Only like 5% on some items and it goes up to 15-20%. Then tanks can not only build flat armour but something help tanking besides armour and health. Similar to how you get pen as a dd but for tanks
This comment should have 10,000 likes
I think you brushed right past Atlanta's bow being a light version of fatalis with 20% flat pen, and many auto attack items getting heavily buffed on top of nemian getting nerfed and shell getting a counter.
So effectively:
ADC are getting
high damage and
utility AND,
lifesteal AND,
%Pen ANNND,
High crit, when you used to need to pick a lane, not just get all the stats via osmosis of pen being put everywhere.
To top that off auto attack counter options all just got nerfed/changed or have counters, im not saying its bad but ability gods are having a bowl of struggle O's when they get lv1 invaded by arachne every game.
I just played in a conquest against a team that ran two physcial hunters, they destroyed our whole team with no problem. Our guardian tank built defense but could not last longer than a few seconds. Same with our warriors. :(
So your personal anecdote of having shit teammates means tanks are bad now? Lmao
@@kriegaone3658 I was playing with friends from the SPL
Sounds about right. Mathematically, the game heavily favors damage over defense right now
@@heroicnerd2463 What did their hunters build? Because from what I know, Hunter's now have less overall pen currently than compared to pre mid season with pre nerf Exe + Titan's. And did your tanks even build like nemean / midgardian / witchblade ?
It's kind of been on and off with tanks on smite, sometimes I feel very strong, at other times I feel useless. I think it's a better situation for tanks because it really makes you think smarter when engaging. Also, I think it's because players over the years of smite have grown a lot smarter with team fighting, which gives tank less room for error, which is healthy. But I do miss the Season 4 days lol.
Well it depends. Some games people refuse to buy pen like refuse to buy anti heal and wards then it feels like tanks are immortal. But when you finally meet randoms who have a brain, buy pen, antihero AND wards then everyone dies faster walking on a bug. It all depends on the teammates and communication
Every game I play there is always an Arachne with serrated edge on one of the teams.
When I'm not supporting, the current support is usually building full damage with no good tank items
These men need prizes.
Good
Because tank items give major diminishing returns and tanking isn't fun at all right now
Honestly my favourite season as support was the Ne zha/Fenrir with Horrific, with how much preassure you had to create to invade the purple it made the laning phase fun.
I’d be interested in seeing some changes to hp5 on items and see what kind of effects that could have
Dang man ngl your setups for Teeds are super nice. Great clips dude
These changes to pen have made me feel like a relic bot with relic dagger on some tanks with some cc as a bonus because it’s just not useful enough to build more auras because without cloaks and more selfish defence items I’ll die too fast to be useful and if I build some hybrid and add damage items the damage I do will be useless when one basic will heal all that and more with the lifesteal people have even through 80% counter healing. A lot of games it’s fine and doesn’t feel too different on most tanks but against some gods abusing Hecate or Quins I just get shredded in 2-3 seconds without a chance or counter if I’m even a basic attack away from my team
Maybe I missed I've just not been paying attention but aren't the pros also building wind demon so that when they crit they have 40%?
All my friends HATE the meta. My support friend is close to quitting. I find myself building for passives and not really defenses now. An adc walking around with 80% crit, 40% pen, semi-fatalis, and attacking at high attack speed is very hard to tank. I've found that more people who didn't like support like support now but the less aggressive support mains hate the game right now. I'm aggressive though. :)
direct them to that frost video about cows, I'm sure they'll love it
Maybe your friend should start building spectral armor and more physical prots.
I think that there needs to be more counter options. Both to crit and raw pen. Had several gamer where I’ve been the tank and just got deleted by the right trigger holding hunter.
i mean you have a point with the damage being spread out i personally see that as a problem. i forgot the exact wording on this but there was a cycle of how roles interacted with each other, like for example assassins counter mages, mages counter hunters, hunters counter, tanks, tanks counter assassins. but with this patch it feels like thats out the window and now tanks dont have any use. ive been playing alot of support and i was surprised how useless i was. before id go in get some cc on maybe get some follow up and disengage, alternatively, id stay with my carry constantly peeling and blocking damage but now its like i die either way.
also tiny note i feel like your spamming your ares chains too much, try weaving autos in so you dont have to constantly worry about the timing.
after watching this i must say this was super informative and very educational. this was much needed information wise. thank you
So because of all of the changes...would you say that “peel” supports would be more common/viable?
I agree with the reinforced boots being underrated. They are very helpful. Not too long a ago I was Achilles up against dots/as comp. Instead of power boots I went reinforced as a result instead of being eaten alive by the Arachne. I out mitigated her damage.
Baron support never went away for me, people just went away from baron support
I disagree with both sides like you but in a different way. Most people aren't buying lots of penetration and when they do it's not that good anyway. Shredding like 80 protections from a tank sounds like a lot but it's really not. Say you build for 40% penetration that's only reducing their actual mitigations by 10%-15%. The reason tanks are getting blown up is because these pen items have tons of other good stats like serrated and lots of characters suddenly became really strong this patch. Penetration is not the problem (if there even is a problem).
I will say that I think tanks/supports could be amped up a fair bit, namely Guardian supports, while they have better CC the majority of them lack the damage and sustain abilities to make them viable counters to their Warrior counterparts, that being said, having a more specialized build is definitely super strong right now, heck I'd argue the most underrated tank item out there is Shogun's Kusari.
Ok so I have a question. What build would you recommend on a Fafnir or sobek you know more aggressive supports? I used to run with a bruiser build power boots void stone and the like, but due to me dieing everytime I went in I recently switched to a more health/hp5 build and it's been going better I guess. I don't die as much which is good but I'm just.... IDK missing the damage/aggression the busier build gave me. Maybe I should try playing warriors? I hear their more aggressive then guardians, might fit my playstyle more IDK. Any help would be appreciated
CDR boots > Thebes > Sov > Void Stone / Shogun's > Ethereal > Spectral/Mantle > sell boots for Magus or Reaver. Or with the recent Stone of binding buff you can also try the previous build but get binding just before Thebes.
@@kriegaone3658 never thought of e-staff on Fafnir but it makes sense. Yeah it m definitely gunna try this build first thing I get! Thx so much
Tyrannical Plate Support Hel is fun.
I feel like the potential to shred tank are worse than before (40% pen + 20% on one skill) but from what I have see, people build nowadays more into hp than protection and most dmg role don’t concentrate that much on pen % . But one thing for sure is that you can’t build as much « full tank » than before.
I think it would be worth looking into some guardian only items that provide some more percentage mitigation
As a Solo main, my main struggle as a tank is honestly not that I get bursted down faster and more that Solo is just kinda wack rn imo.
This is mostly in casuals because of lack of Drafting phase but really, everything is "broken" in Solo. Guardians have good bruiser items in general and hasn't changed much, Lifesteal Mages get Hecate and/or Typhons build and sustain infinitely in lane, AA Assassins can run full damage with Golden Blade and judt out clear, and Warriors
Other than King Arthur, pretty much the rest of the Warriors didn't get much of a net hit in effectiveness. Sledge is the go-to item now similar to pre-price increase Blackthorn, Soul Eater was good on SWK and he still is, and Gaia even got a few posts on Reddit about it being broken (hint: it's probably not).
Either way, I'll still use late game teamfight Warriors like Ama or Guan and of course my actual Solo Main Baron. Anyway yes, this isn't relevant much to the vid since it was more for Support but y'know... I don't have an actual excuse so I guess my tip is buy Sledge 2nd~4th item.
Sledge and caduceus shield are the only good items on warriors, there is so little variety of items, but I always prefered guardians anyway (mainly because of the boots)
@@bigfudge2031 Void Shield is good too
The problem is that without exe you they have all pen from the first shot so if u get cc (and in this game every one has a stun) you are dead even if you are full defense, more than before but this very problem was already there. Now with all the movement speed nerfs and the fact that every body has percent pen plus spear you can't play a full defense support and feel good about it. You have to play a more aggressive dmg focus play style or you are straight up getting less value from your gold if you aren't herc or xin or some other really hard to kill God. Geb and silvanus are in a really bad spot for example.
I think it’s more annoying that pen is like anti heal. There’s not really much you can do about it despite using niche items like midguardian to get away from hunters or AA gods and CCR which can support in escapes. Tanks are definitely in the lower end this time around but I do think it was necessary being guardians were taking too long to kill unnecessarily and warriors could just do too much and escape hardly unscathed.
Except you can mitigate pen by building more health (to some degree) and building damage mitigation (e.g. Spirit Robe, Oni Hunter's passives). Or you can itemise into bruiser/damage items so you can be more than just a bullet sponge.
I feel like you're sleeping on oni hunters right now. The mitigation and magical defence is amazing in the hecate meta
Genjis and shoguns are just better 90% of the time
true armor gang
@@Loj84 it really depends. Shoguns is great if you have an AA based team, but again also depends on the god you're playing. For example, combined with fafnir's stim it's pretty good. Also genji's, the cooldown is great and can be hard to get into a good support build sometimes, so I see the argument.
BUT, mitigation is taken into account after protections/pen/prot reduction. You take the number after all of that and reduce it by a percentage. When you're in the middle of a team fight, the centre of attention as a guardian usually is, taking 9% less damage is so impactful to getting out alive, plus it has health and CCR, and the longer you stay alive, the longer you can help your team stay alive, and the more resources the other team puts into killing you.
Ive been building oni hunters a lot and i really fine like it does help when dealing with mage adcs ir mages in general
What do you think about rolling Nemian into a mantel?
Tyrannical plate helm Ganesha is one of the funnest builds to run for me
I'm a Cerberus main and even with the recent changes, Spear of the magus is still a perfect match for him. It allows you to bully Bellona and Chtulhu among others during most of the game. Just build accordingly to your enemy. Some anti heal if they go full on healing or do some healing items if you want sustain while always getting Max CDR if possible since Cerberus has really long cooldowns in his abilities and you can basically dominate Solo. I've also been playing Baba Yaga Solo and it's fun but the power Cerberus brings to the table I think is being ignored and that's a shame because he still feels like a tank and I haven't felt squishy at any given time even when I recklessly go into the enemy team with thorns "on" in hopes of catching most with my ultimate for my team to kill. Like 7 or 8/10 times I can get out of that with half my health, heal and go back in order to secure an objective, kill or whatever my team needs
Cerberus is trash no offence though. I'm sure you're amazing with him though, but there are better picks. Ares does the same things as him better safer and easier and also counters his jump.
Magus doesent really bully them early now though? 2600 gold now and its only a 7% increase in damage or so for yourself. Its mainly good for teamfight stage now.
@@lorenzomoseley5926 Cerberus is not trash lmao. Ares safer? Tell me the part where Ares has an escape?
@@kriegaone3658 true Ares doesn't have an escape but he runs people down a lot easier than cerb and his damage is easier to confirm imo. Maybe trash is a bit strong but I just hate his ult it's just to easy to escape from you don't even need to beads it most of the time.
You spent too much time focusing on damage options for supports, but the true issue is still how the ttk went down on supports.
Compare League tanks to Smites. Smite tanks are literally wet paper in comparison.
Some guardians do too much damage and I think that has made hi rez nerfed tank items too much. Granted ares, ymir, gods like that I think are in a good place, they're like bruiser supports. But fafnir, terra, sobek, these gods have plenty of cc and team fight kits while still being able to half health squishies by themselves. I think tanks like that need to be changed with their power scaling and protection. I also think Guardians need to get speciality items like the katanas so that they could be better balanced around being a damage soaker/ setup god. Also a lot of guardians are either really hard to kill, or the enemy has a Merlin and you die in 2 seconds. I just feel like with all the power creep in the game guardians need a bit of a buff in the defense department and a nerf in the damage department.
Tanks are way to squishy, I get that they buffed pen coz of the old tank meta and you couldn’t really die, but they need to balance them a lot more. I spend most conquests games in support as a tank and honestly I’ve moved over to be a dps support as a result of being too squishy, if I build protections early I can help the carry until lv3-5 but as soon as a T1 pen item gets brought my two physical protection items go out the window.
I hate that arachne just decimated me with no effort like if i was a mage. Change to nemean was not a smart move
Well tanks are just buff/cc machines, as long as they can take a few hits and get their cc off they are in good state. Personally, I find that WARRIORS are in a shit state because a lot of them lack CC and with damage increasing and their scaling always being shit, they often just get booped out of a teamfight if they have no real sustain.
Been loving Geb against all the crit
I don't think they are no longer tanky but they need to add more item against %pen
Two things.
Potential outro?
th-cam.com/video/4cn_woPvjQI/w-d-xo.html
2nd
My friend said the same thing. Alot of it is the magicals. Physical damage hasnt really changed.
I dunno. I've been playing Support cabrakan lately and I've been just fine. Maybe that's because of his shadow zone passive but I always get away. With about 200 health. Hercules and Ares are still pretty tanky too
If I'm playing support when should I move to mid?
A general rule of thumb for a support rotating mid is when your carry A) begins stacking/can clear the wave on their own/level 6/about 10 to 12 minutes into the game. B) when your carry is a level or two up on the enemy carry/you've taken teir 1 earlier than normal. C) your mid is being camped by the enemy jungle/feeding horribly. Your mid rotation should essentially dictate the begining of the mid game, and your goal is to ultimately get the gold fury as soon as possible. If its C be sure to ward for your carry as the jungler could just move over to that lane and camp instead. And do your best to leave your carry alone, let your jungle rotate to him for help while you stay mid, however if there is a teamfight you are the backbone to that fight, be sure to watch your map and ward, and encourage your mid to rotate with you if your carry is getting 1v4ed.
@@garrettf1412 I see. Thanks for the tips.
No problem! :)
Just a side note, remember that your carry is always your number 1 priority, however you are not the beacon of their success, a good support should also have general knowledge of carry gods and builds to kind of understand how the lanes going to go. Some carrys start out very slow, some start very aggressive with core items to suit their style. And honestly if they're doin somethin crazy build wise, and they aren't playing smart it's a GREAT idea to just try to forget that guy and support the rest of your team, as he will play off you so if he ever gets his stuff together late game then the rest of your team will still be up to par, rather than investing in someone that cant really deliver. The same goes for a mid laner. Put your influence where you'll have the best impact, not necessarily where ever people are feeding.
Also while rotating you should be securing jungle farm for your team and putting wards on objectives, call missing enemies sometimes that's the best support you can offer.
Dont, you will just feed the enemy mid lane, stay in your lane until 35mins in , it's what Highrez wants
My tank rat is no joke XD and he still puts out alot of dmg.
I have been having a ton of fun with Cu Cu in support. Sledge is easily one of my favorite items ever in this game. Im gonna try some new stuff out that you mentioned here.
Sustain meta > pen burst meta
Which means?
funny with the new/upgraded katanas aa jungle can kill tanks and bruisers easily without having much pens
In my opinion they could kinda fix this with the old nemean reflect 20-25% back
Ok i have to stop you right there. I dont think tanks are squishy from pen. I think they are squishy from ease of stopping a build. Physical defense? Pen/attack speed/lifesteal. Magical defense? DoT/pen. Try to get a big healthpool? Heartseeker/qins/soul reaver. I understand needing counters but the minute mid/late game hits as a tank your damage is nonexistent and so is your defense. You get killed as quickly as the dps
The issue is, is that 79% of games are just arena on a conquest map, especially at lower ranks people don't know what they are meant to be doing, people tunnel vision on kills and get in awful positions. The support is not meant to be some brain dead body blocker.
@@lorenzomoseley5926 if tanks are forced to worry more about themselves than the team then the dps is too strong
it's worth noting that the damage characters _will_ finish their builds before the supports will. Supports have the benefit of seeing what the enemy is building and counterbuilding them. See the mage has picked up Soul Reaver? Don't spec too hard into hp. See the hunter is doing a crit build? _You_ have the initiative and can simply counter it with defense items and Nemean.
Fafnir is one of my most favorite supports right now especially since we are in such a auto attack meta right now
Yea Buffing your whole team and killing Titan in 1.5 seconds is honestly hilarious ngl
I see a lot of people saying that tanks require skill now instead of soaking damage but what I see is that playing hunters mages and assassins just got easier when basically everything has pen in some way or another
plus don't forget Crit is just so fuck op right now..... can't be a tank went you get crited to death by a 65% crit or 100% if you are jing...like evey game I just see crit get pick up and like 2 pen items
( sorry if this was like a rant I just hate crit right now )
@@jdglavin Imagine not picking up spectral into crit lmao
@@kriegaone3658 imagine pick that up and still getting crit to death by 65% or 100% crit now
@@jdglavin The amount of crit in your build doesen't affect the damage, just how likely you are to crit. But 100% crit builds are easier to get now yes.
TL;DR the meta shifted a whole lot and old tank builds are not that suited to it, yet a good part of the player base still builds like old days.
I mean, the tank builds didnt really change much, just warriors build sledge now, shields are gone, sometimes solo laners picking up gaia for sustain. Supports don't really build too differently.
I miss being an unkillable xing tian
I don't think its balanced for every other role in the game to actively want to build 30% pen whether or not there is alot of tanks in the game with th new item changes it just makes tank builds bad. But at the same time its an excuse to just build hybrid items in support so I like it.
I hope they make a duel protection reflect item
TL;DR: Tanks are too squishy, there needs to be a trade off for the pen like there was for titans bane, trade power for pen
One of the big problems is that they may not get much more pen now, but the pen is built naturally into items that already being built, so they don't lose anything for the same pen. then Atalanta's and fail-not build is basically fixed by quin sais. Nemian is good-ish but the jury is still out and two hits against an auto-attacker gives you less then a second of survival in reality. Reinforced grieves are good, I use them on occasion but with the pen changes I go with travelers boots or ccr boots.
Support is not fun right now, I've always counter built my tanks and found a lot of success with them, I died, had low amount of kills but I was able to keep people alive and save the adc/mage a death on many occasions, but now I die so quickly to pen/crit builds that its no longer fun to play pure tanks and it doesn't help to lower my def to increase damage because I'll more often be too dead to do damage not to mention that most guardians have horrible scaling anyway, in noncompetitive, I have seen hunter-mage in duo too often since this change.
Tanks are viable in the pro leagues, but I play tank to TANK not to be a bruiser, I don't like being a bruiser most the time except when I'm playing my main boy Ares, but if I'm rolling a Sobek, Fafnir or Athena, I want to tank and body block for the hunter and get into the faces of the enemy and make them panic and break them up so the assassin can kill them before they can do too much damage. now I can't play that mind game, now I don't do damage and die quickly
I think the pen system is good, but there needs to be something traded for it, throwing pen on items that everyone was already building so basically mid/carry got a free extra item in most cases and didn't sacrifice any power what so ever and because they don't necessarily need executioner/ titan's bane or Soul Reaver they are able to build more power so even with a 30% pen and 100+ more power it more then makes up for that lacking 10% pen and melt tanks just as quickly as a armor-less squishy. there needs to be a trade off in some fashion.
until this is fixed, I shall be staying out of the duo lane as much as I can because it doesn't feel like I can play in the way a tank is suppose to be played and see a duo lane of Mage/hunter meta is going to emerge which I want nothing to do with
I think they should just decrease the overall damage to what it used to be. I don't really like getting 1 shot as any character by Scylla, Janus, morigan and pretty much every mage. Even ADC shreds (i know that's what they are supposed to do) even though you build full physical armour to counter them. Honestly, every god does too much damage. It got to the point that I build attack speed and hastended katanas on hercules and become unstoppable.
Cthulhu, Jorm, Yemoja.These are not tanks,these are mage.Hi-rez has no idea how to make a support, if they make a support, they do it based more on the damage than on the tank itself.But yeah a hercules full hp build is more tanks than one that needs pure support.This is worrying.The tank in this season is very delicate
the problem isn t only mid patch. mid patch just broke the bag. this started in season 6, when titans and obsidian got buffed from 33% to 45% (against tanks). then they changed quin sais from 4% health to 3-5 depending to health (5% against tanks), then tehy buffed qin sais and exe stats. they buffed demons ring. they changed void stone from 10 reductio to 10% reduction, void shield from 15 to 15%, they released toxic blade (less healing, less bulkiness) they buffed cursed aang, they release contagion (which is a defensive item, but which purpose is to reduce tankiness by reducing healing). thats season 6. then they buffed all healers stats to pay for that. but for supports only buffed sobek and fafnir (which both got nerfed worse than before after that)
then season 7 changes soul reaver to be more lethal against tanks, releases hearthseeker, an assassin skill based item against tanks, then they change magical pen so you don t need to actually build obsidian anymore, and buff all anti tank magic items, then they destroyed nemeal as an anti carry item and nerfed thorns, then they release the new crit item which also has anti healing, buff aang and thunder so is better against tanks, and then they make so physicals can reach titans levels of penetration without actually having to buy a statwise bad item. thar broke the camels back.
would you buy breastplate if it gave to you 37 defense? build stone of gaia if that increase of ~10% of your late game health means receiving 10% more damage? or would you rather build ethereal staff, divine ruin, soul reaver, spear of the magus and spear of desolation on characters made to be full tank, because their stats are reliable, and not a redundant mess like crowd control reduction is?
because thats what it is now.
yes, more characters are viable in support, but do you really think an anubis or a baka are actual supports? i mean, why u want them to be viable in support? they have their own lines, and it isn t like we want a geb on solo sitting under his tower, do we? do you liked as a solo when it was meta building support items and waiting until min 20 on solo without actually fighting?
well, then i don t like to take care of 4 walking nukes to protect my carry when the rotation of 4 guys on duo occurs when any of these 4 guys can delete me alone in less than 3 seconds
it feels like support isn t a thing anymore, and its more like "the solo who puts himself behind cuz there is only 3 lines"
they did all the possible changes to bring down supports, and they got it. now kepri support is as viable as loki support, congratulations. this line has no purpose anymore.
and for the % argument, nearly everyone reach 40% if theres only one tank, as these items are absurldy efficient, even without pen. assasins get 2-3 of these titans/heartseeker/soul eater/atalantas; adcs get 3 of these fail-not/wimd demon/atalantas/titans (ask medusas)/heartseekers (ask ullrs, chirons, hou yis...) warriors get 2 of these void shield (its reduction, not pen but is 15% and they give it to all team, so even worse)/gladiators (if they re sad arthurs)/soul eater/ titans bane/ heartseeker
and mages have charonte+soul reaver+built int % pen (vulcan, scylla, merlin...)
and i m not talking about magical adcs.
while all thar happens, support have gauntlet of thebes, nemeal lion, bruiser items and pen items. and the last of them aren t support items...
well i understand that you think it doesnt matter much with some nerf and buffs on physical items but i disagree man. having only adc as a threat is much better than having 2-3 threats for tanks making it a little frustrating if u ask me and thats mostly bcs the number of offensive items grows when tanks dont get much new ones for utility purposes so they struggle. also now having so many % pen items between physicals and magicals is kinda broken. another problem is definitely freya, no matter what you build u cant lock her or tank her that much being strong and broken are kinda different things. also adcs with inbuild pen or buffs also cause so much problem. having 2 stacks of block from namean means literally nothing against freya or rama, also tanks dont have a legit anticrit item. mail of renewal is always a favorite of mine especially with kuzenbo or some other aggressive supports havin hp, cd and hp5 with great sustain for long battles if your team can secure kills. another problem that i already talked about is flex pick or unique gameplay gods which are hard to balance. well cthulu, mulan, yemoja, freya, and most of the new gods is kinda jack of all trades and master of none imo which cause also confusion in gameplay and roles. hi rez needs to make a few new gods with clear roles if you ask me. im glad to have options for %pen for mages and hunters but with magical hunters being a thing its too harsh. maybe they can nerf attack speed on magical adc items so they will need to buy some neutral attack speed items like dagger or something so they trade power for attack speed at least. only thing i know its definitely feel bad being a tank right now except a few. i dont want dmg on tanks they can nerf it to ground i dont care starting from early mid but they definitely need to make them live for more than 2 seconds at least in team fights.
Omg omg omg the struggle where i REALLY want to watch this because this has been a serious issue but im at work 😭😭😭
Nemean is so good vs da ji/susano/Loki now as a lot of their damage is from AA hydras proc’s and aa stim w/ hydras
Just nerf the damage on the percent pen items. Makes no sense that you can always run the same build to shred tanks and still blow up squishies. The nerf to soul reaver helps. But still need damage nerfs on several items like heartseeker.
th-cam.com/video/QzjBvp8GED8/w-d-xo.html - Just explaining pen changes
Why do you think so many warriors and mages are being picked as supports? Its the problem where being tanky is never enough so you need gods with more damage/aggressive kits, I for one hated Nox, Nezha and Freya support in the past.
11:55 that when you realize they don't like you...
Wait, people don’t build Reinforced Greaves anymore? I’m surprised.
Its a beta / boring pickup tbh.
Utility and survivability are more valuable now,so if youre a support getting blown up in teamfights then you need to rethink your play style and actually learn the roll and not be just big man with big health
I feel that current state of support is prolly the best one since i started playing the game for 3 reasons:
1. Pen changes force you to build more HP than prots to max out your effective health, opening up more item choices
2. Damage feels more "spread out" evenly instead of being delivered in big bursts, allowing for non-tank supports to actually exist in this game. Picks like baron, aphro and other healers feel much more powerful cause they can build a mage-bruiser build with items like emperor crown that allows minions to tank for you or stone of binding or harons coin witch gives you a lot of useful stats, and from my testing even some control mages with specific high damage build can work, like soul gem+emperor+magus god of demonetization or soul gem+pytagorem anubis
3.Due to how % pen interacts with squishier targets (for example 40% pen won't give as much as 4 items with 10 pen each vs an adc or mage) all forms of sustain (heals, shields etc) become much more useful, witch might open a way for support builds focused on them, allowing for something similiar to enchanter type supps from LoL to exist in smite
I mean they could build aegis as a relic and have a support relic
I think frost was off base when he said eating ultimates as a support was bad play. I disagree as if my support is eating 2 ults for me I’m happy
I don’t think that’s the point he was trying to make because in his words as support your job is to drain resources. Taking an ult or two would count as doing that, but getting relics or escapes would also fall under that category. You simply cannot walk into a team fight and face tank everything and walk out alive anymore, and in the cases where the enemy team went tank buster(before 7.7) and you die from the barrage of abilities and you only got their ults? They could still have the relics to get out and have your team waste resources to compensate. In my opinion, his point was that there is more to the role that just being a sponge.
An Amaterasu went haam on me with basic attacks. Killed me in about 4 seconds flat from full.
I don't like these changes sure there more to play a u can build some damage but it make engaging for the team so much more risky and I don't like that if I'm just a second slower I can go from play maker to dead in no time at all but that's just me.