Why Harley Davidson Needs to F-off
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 มิ.ย. 2024
- I have a lot to cover in this video but it needed to be said. Not all Harley dealers suck these days but many do. The Motor Company has nothing but contempt for their core customer and I tell you exactly why this is the case.
Thanks for watching and please be sure to comment and Subscribe!!!
0:00 - 2:14 Intro
2:14 - 6:00 Harley's Obligation to Their Core Customer
6:00 - 10:00 Why Harley's are no longer Affordable
10:00 - 13:58 Harley's Slimy Sales Practices
13:55 - 16:12 Harley vs. Rolex
16:12 - 19:48 Harley's Legacy - ยานยนต์และพาหนะ
I wanted to buy a Pan America. I was ready to sign papers, until I found out the dealer jacked the price up $4,000. They acted like they're doing me a favor, simply for having the bike. I walked out. I bought an Indian FTR, and I love it.
The FTR is a sweet bike! Harley lost out on your deal.
harley shmarley, INDIAN is where it's at😎
I wanted a Softail Standard. MSRP is just under 14k. They sell for close to 20k in Boston.
@Thomas B Too heavy for me.
@Thomas B Are you trying to sell me a BMW? I like a reliable bike with character, a bike that's fun. BMW, no thanks. Too heavy and bulky, and definitely ugly.
I went to price out my first harley (2021 Street Bob) Took it for a test ride and honestly loved it. Price was $15, 900. Well that didn't last long. The salesman went in the back office and came back with what the final price was after they tagged on all their fees. Mind you I added no upgrades..The price was a little over $21,000. I looked at the breakdown and put the price sheet on his desk and said this is ridiculous and I'm no longer interested. I didn't raise my voice and just walked out.
That is exactly what the HD dealer near me does. I think it is total B.S. what they are doing.
You're a better man than I am. I would have also nice and calm, with a slight smile, after laying that down on the desk, said, you can use this for toilet paper, we're through here. Have a great day. And no conversation if anything else was said I would have just gave a little wave as I left the building. That was robbery and disrespectful.
Which model?
@@edzeppelin I never was into all of that stuff. Kinda looked like dressing up like a pirate and I never could connect the two. Was just more comfortable in regular clothes but I have had some friends at a so-called biker church I attended that looked like that's the only thing they had to wear. Oh well each to their own.
European and Japanese machines infinitely superior machines in cruiser category too if that's your thing.Harley been ripping off and treating customers like mugs for years
Wanted a new Harley until I just out of curiosity, stopped by a local Indian dealer. Totally different experience from the several HD dealers I tried. No pressure, no finance BS, let me haggle down for $$ and boy did I get a great motorcycle! When HD started selling crap, perfumes, underwear, HD branded junk and badly made bikes I knew the rot was in. I love my Indian and am really happy with it in every regard. Don't get me wrong. HD is a good bike, but it needs to go back to basics and stop being the "red bull" of bikes. Such a great heritage turned into cooperate land fill and rip off prices. PS. Try a day out on a Indian, you might be very surprised!
I am impressed with Indians, especially the Challenger!
Even the Chinese knockoffs of those bikes are better made and more reliable.
My Indian is nearly 8 years old now and I love it.
In 1978, I wanted to buy a Harley, but even then the prices were wrong. Being 24, living in North Dakota, and having a need for speed, I bought a Kawasaki Z1-R, brand new for $3100, with two matching helmets. It was over 130 mph hundreds of times in 100k miles. It got tires, tuneups, oil changes, chains and sprockets. Never needed engine work. At 70, I still ride Kawasaki.
That is awesome. I sold my Harley and ride Suzukis now (Katana and Hayabusa). Harley is lost.
I agree with just about everything you stated in your video except one. H.D.'s were never priced for the working man/blue collar worker. They were always priced way higher than similar motorcycles. And that's not even counting the dealer gouging in the 90's to 2005 or so. The working man bought used Harleys or saved for years to buy a new one. I bought a new Honda 750 in 1977 for 1900 dollars a Sportster 1000cc was 500 bucks more. That's 2400 dollars in 2022 dollars. Japanese bikes were the working mans bike, not Harleys. Today though, a Wing will cost you the same as an H.D. Ultra. Minus the dealer gouging of course.
Thanks for weighing in on this. Perhaps owning a Harley has always been rather aspirational than affordable. I do think much of their marketing over the years has included a focus on blue collar values but maybe buying new wasn't much of a factor.✌️
YUP. I had three (3) 1979 Honda 750 F Supersports (2 BlaCK & ONE IN BURGUNDY) I ALSO PAID ABOUT $2K EACH IN 1979 & 1980. I F'U_KIN LOVED THAT BIKE, RODE THE SHIT OUTTA THEM, AND ONLY HAD TO CHANGE OIL EVERY 7 TO 10 THOUSAND MILES (AND BRAKE PADS EVERY SO OFTEN. Ya couldn't hurt those bikes even if ya tried. Now, my Harley cost me about $2-$4K a year in upkeep. I love my Harley but hate the costs in upkeep (not to mention the initial investment cost)
@@pubite11 As you say there us definitely a big difference in maintenance costs between Harley and other brands like Honda!✌️
I saw a customer burst into tears in the finance office not because of the high price but because of the realization of a life long dream to buy a brand new Harley-Davidson motorcycle. To the Motor Company that guy was just a mark to fleece for more upgrades and performance kits that should have come standard.
@@JR-bj3uf If the things you mentioned came standard, the bikes would cost even more. Offered as an accessory, you have the choice of purchasing them, or not.
Bought a new 2021 FLHCS at Monty’s HD in Bridgewater, MA. They charged MSRP plus the advertised shipping charge. They included 2 hours of labor toward upgrades done at time of purchase and gave a 10% veteran discount on parts installed at time of purchase. They are good people to deal with.
Wow that is a solid deal for sure. Thanks for your info and enjoy your new ride!👍
Hahaha ok
I bought a 2001 fat boy there 21 years ago,msrp. every other dealer then was really screwing people with dealer mark ups. you are right, they are good people.
With all due respect to veterans, they give that discount because that generation makes up most of their core customers
@@timonava3613 that generation? Doesn’t every generation have veterans? 🇺🇸
I bought a used two year old Superglide in 1974, Then paid cash for a
new Iron Head in 1979.
42 years later, I retired last year as a Master Electrician & wanted a new bike.
I gave the Iron Head to a young friend who didn't mind constantly having
to work on a rolling AMF breakdown machine.
He now owns a mythical Harley.
I went shopping...
I talked to many people and test rode a few bikes.
The Harley Stealership in my city lost interest in giving me any kind of
deal when they found out that I wanted to pay cash. no finance.
The price they quoted me was downright insulting.
I bought a big Suzuki cruiser for a fantastic deal, and wonderful service too.
As a 65 yr old guy that makes 125K a year in the service industry part
of America"s economy, I was one of the prime suckers that Harley depended on
to keep buying their hype.
One year and 9000 miles later, the big Zuke is the best motorcycle I have ever ridden.
I named her Marsha, after my favorite porn star, Marsha May.
F Harley.
I love my Suzuki too. I haven't settled on a name yet.😀✌️ I agree that HD just dosen't really get who their customers are or should be these days
I was immersed in you story then you hit me with Marsha……lol!! Safe travels!
I've owned many Harleys through the years ,and still own two older Harleys. When I wanted a new touring bike I went to a couple of Harley dealers and was shocked! Started doing some research and ended up going with the Kawasaki Vaquero. Bought a new 2021 for 1000 dollars less than msrp. I've owned many Kawasaki's in the past with great service. Anyway, I'm glad I made the right choice. Love my Vaquero!
I think Kawasaki has the most complete line of motorcycles out there. I am definitely a fan of theirs.
Yeah but that Kawasaki ain't worth shit on resale ,
Harley's aint either if you rack up the miles on em like I do
@@okiebikerT78 if that is why you purchase something... To worry about how much I will get for it when I eventually get rid of it .. yes you are right .. crappy resale...but crappy resale on what ? Something that cost 1/2 or 1/3 the price to begin with?
Your numbers ain't right first off half price
Yes just bought a bike went to five dealers, number one thing that pissed me off before even telling them what bike I was interested in was a demand to photo copy my drivers license- Fuck off
#2 What do you want your payment to be? Well what's the price of the bike?- Whatever you want the payment to be- Fuck off
#3 Were an MSRP Dealer then proceeds to give me a price 4k over msrp and then adds delivery & BS fees-Fuck off
#4 MSRP price with a few add ons but fair, then says just need 10k down and the rate is 15% for 48 months, my credit score is 780-Fuck off
#5 3 year old Road King stock selling for 25 k with 5k miles. Explanation demand is so high this is the new normal- Ok buddy its not a rare diamond Fuck off
#6 Great dealer, MSRP, No BS , no Games, price take it or leave it- Sold , its not very difficult Harley needs to get rid of these predator scumbags its like the old used car dealer scene and if I knew at the begining what I know now I wouldn't be buying a Harley. Well I guess I would but you can weed out the dirtbags by phone, no price over the phone or by Email no point in visiting and wasting your time.
And just for the record my friend fell for the license trick at two dealers they ran his credit without his authorization. For you inexperienced young folks when you give away your license and then leave on bad terms do you want that feeling in the Pitt of your stomach wondering when your license will be sold on the internet, it happens more than you know.
You are right on point with everything you said!👍✌️
They tried talking me into a $48k motorcycle as my first bike. Honda offered me a 500 out the door for $6.2k in Southern California. Harley is stuck in a horrible buyers experience.
@@cycletron Your right...i figured that out also...i had some fool tell me that prices according to inflation has stayed pretty even over the years with HD...and i told him he was only half right...Wages for the working class has not...and i mean non union factory...construction workers and Warehouse forklift drivers and the like....In 1980 when i graduated and joined the USMC,..guys that made $10 an hour was decent money then...fast foward to 2020 that equals just under $34 an hour....And those workers now a days are lucky to make over $15 today...
Although, the harley owners group fee will cinch a deal .
Thanks for taking the time to put that together. Your experience covers nearly all of us. If everyone read that before buying we could weed out the scumbags. One of my local dealers went to the no price until you show up in person. Reminds me of the 1990's bullshit. For a company that needs recruitment of young blood they are sure slamming doors in people's faces.
As a longtime motorcyclist and Harley rider for nearly 30 years, I agree with your thoughts here. I recognize your anger and contempt in your voice as it mimics my own back in the early 90s when I was trying to buy my first Harley. Most local dealers at that time were selling units far above MSRP and forcing you to buy unwanted HD brand accessories up to $2k along with it just to get the deal. They were also charging fees to get out on waiting lists for the most desired models of the era. It was a tough pill to swallow, for sure! My point is that this is not a new sales tactic for HD and it’s dealer network. They were always in it for the profits while they turned their back against their loyal customers in favor of the newer wealthier buyers who were willing ti pay the premium. The motorcycles and the lifestyle around it have been a huge part of my life but the company lost sight of it’s customers and ethical values long ago! As much as I’d love to own a new LRST, I will NOT walk down that road again. I dropped $400 on repairs to my ‘94 Dyna this week to breathe some new life into it. The crazier this world gets, the more I love my old stroker Evo! Motorcycle culture ain’t what it used to be and the Motor Company lost this guy as a potential buyer long ago. I also ride a Kawi Cafe Racer and a Suzuki VStom for reference, so I feel qualified to speak as an all around motorcycle buyer and rider. I used to be a fan of the old Iron Horse magazine during the 90s because I could relate with the writers who contributed to it. There was a movement at the time to flip the HD patches and logos to show the disdain for the Motor Company’s direction regardless of the love and passion for the machines and the lifestyle. The company sure capitalized on the lifestyle imagery but dumped on the people who made it what it was.
I think you have summed up the situation very well. I had not heard about the HD patch flipping idea before. There are a variety of great bikes out there; too much to be married to any one brand anymore. I think the market will be awash in fairly inexpensive used bikes inside of 3 years.
@@cycletron Dont let it bring you down. Keep up the good work!
@@TeeBeeZee Thanks very much! I will keep in riding and branch out more to non-HD videos too.👍✌
I'm glad for you. I tried to get an Indian last year and it was TERRIBLE. I was looking at a bike with a 14k dollar MSRP and they were quoting me 22k out the door. They wouldn't even let me sit on the bikes on the floor. Maybe I just had a really bad dealer in my area, which is a shame, because I love those scout bobbers.
@@shadowrider7072 Who would have thought that retail businesses would ever view their customers as lower class citizens? Karma comes around...
I concur...I have felt that way forever when it comes to Harleys. I have seen so many people that had to have one to get into the "I ride a Harley so I am a badass" click , and buy thousands of dollars worth of Harley clothes and accessories, only to get rid of everything a couple years later at a huge loss. Don't get, never did, never will.
I do like the bikes. The price of admission is pretty high though and I don't like all the lifestyle and dealer B.S. at all.
I can run in the high tens at around 130 for $5K. That’s badass enough for me.
And leaves me with a nice chunk for WAM & grudge money.
I agree. To each his own I guess. I got a used BMW F650 GS on Craigslist for $3,000. Three years now and not a single issue.
@@cycletron
Absolutely 💯 % not just true, but THE TRUTH.
If I would have felt compelled to own a Hog, I would have considered chasing an almost antique XLCR cafe racer from a half century old.
But if I wanted to play RUB-y, I would go for a nice 4-8 year old Harley, with all the riding gear and cotton billboards thrown in for free.
But I feel the need…
So right now I’m good just being on a ten plus second British rat bike.
Cheap thrills. Good clean fun. Or at least, good fun.
A Harley Davidson will last forever. Handed down or just around town
I walked in to my local Harley dealer with the intention of buying a pan America special in black for 21k. I had the check written and ready to go and those monsters had the gall to add a 5000$ “market adjustment” on top of the general markup. I have a picture of the sales tag, before taxes tag and registration fees, the sticker read 29,850$. I asked the salesmen what’s going on with the price and he said “if you have to ask…” and laughed. I literally walked out of the door, walked across the street to the triumph dealer and purchased a 2020 Rocket 3 GT. I just cannot believe anyone would pay that kind of money or even entertain the idea of paying that much over msrp.
I agree. But this practice can't last much longer and I will be sure to remember to not deal with these people when the market gets back to some semblance of sanity.
I had a 05 rocket 3 ,,, scary fast ,, dealership problems ,, first year build problems , ,, too easy to get complacient ,,, and yes the Harley dealers are the worst offenders ,, wont even put tires on a harley purchased at thier dealership after it get too old ,like 5 years....
I considered a Harley once and after talking to the local dealer, I decided then and there, I will NEVER buy a Harley. The dealers are such a rip off and it's so clear to see. I don't know how stupid you'd have to be to take that bullshit from them and actually buy a new bike?! You'd really must want one bad at those prices. They are just not worth what you pay, period.
@TJF Denver that is how I got my 10,000 $$ 2015 Ducati multistrada with only 20,000 miles!!!! What a machine!!!!😁😁😁😁😁🏍🏍🏍🍺🍺
Until he gets on one and rides it!
@@artmchugh5644 you found a Ducati with over 15k miles that doesn't have a metric ton of problems?
Where does one acquire such a unicorn?
@@dudemcfurgusson7179 😂😂😂😂🏍🏍 thanks for your comment!! I have had 4 Ducatis since 1991 ,my first one ,900ss , loved that bike!! Rose to California in 1993 and traded it in with 196.000 miles !!! For a very special 2001 ST2 , I loved that bike!!! Rode to California from Pennsylvania 2 up in 2016 . Decided to get a multistrada and sold the st2 with 205,000 miles on it. Got a 2011 multistrada "link provided " put 52,000 miles on it BEFORE getting the 2015 from a guy in our Porsche club. The only time that I was stranded was the st2 ,WHO KNEW THAT THE FUEL FILTER NEEDED TO BE REPLACED EVERY 130.000 MILES 😂😂😂😂 th-cam.com/video/r2p9mr19-QQ/w-d-xo.html
Your dealer must suck real bad. Most do not, I like my Harley's and only ride H/D or Honda enduros
I own 3 Harley’s. A 2000 Electra Glide Standard, a 2001 Night Train, and a 72 FLH. Bought all 3 used and have the titles in my safe. I remember in the 90’s when the dealerships were charging thousands over msrp and people were getting on waiting lists the give these dealerships their money. I wanted a Harley so bad back then but couldn’t afford the msrp price, much less the mark up. I’ve had a bad taste in my mouth for dealerships ever since. I love my Harleys, and even though I can afford it now, I’ll never buy a new one… my local dealership burned that bridge years ago.
It looks like things have gone full circle. Just think of all the potential customers HD is alienating now.✌️👍
I buy them used because I work on them. Save money getting a good one used.
Dont buy from the dealer. When someone walks into a Harley dealership they have already lost. They are not your friends. I've owned 4 Harleys over the years and for me I will be going to another American brand due to the fact that when I last talked to the sales person they tried to sqeeze the most commission out of me ( a blue collar worker ) as they could while they hang out in the air conditioning all day lurking around the bikes and customers. Dont give the Harley floor walkers your hard earned money! Do your research and buy privately. Great video! 👍
Thank you very much I appreciate it. I agree with what you say about dealerships.
Have owned Goldwings and Harley. Love my 2017 ultra limited, no problem at all! No leaks, doesn't use oil. Having said all that, Harley are about 15/20 years behind other makes.
Yep and wtf is with the loud clunky shifts on these touring models? I love ‘em. Buts it’s like riding a souped up John deer tractor
They are light years behind the LT1200. Harley was a manure pump company in the beginning, that says it all
15 / 20 years behind ? Their basic engine design is over 100 years old ! Soooo... ?
FORD Motor Company decided to crack down on their Dealers that are charging WAY too much above MSRP. They claim that they will stop shipping cars to the worse gouging Dealers.
Ford gets it! Those type of dealer practices lead to long term brand damage. HD couldn't care less!
I believe GM is doing the same.. there all taking advantage of the shortages.. which I why I believe most of these shortages are self influenced..
@@jimbeam9176 Your correct on that, GM is threatening to stop shipment on shady practices also
When I worked for ford I heard that to about the dealer charging astronomical sums for certain vehicals and how the corp. Was going to impose some sanctions on those greedy dealers. But it was just nonsense. Now if a dealer has a lot of left over inventory. They will get cut back on their floor plan.hard to sell units are some times given incentives to dealers and sales people to move those units at cost. The value of anything is only what someone is willing to pay. Price is determined by demand. Its the law.
@@bigwu100 I agree, the market will correct. Part of the correction will be when people remember which dealers were shady when demand for vehicles was strong.
This is the reason why I chose an Indian scout bobber 60 over the sportster. Now two years later I'm upgrading to a chief instead of a soft tail. I love Harley Davidson's but I don't wanna be price gouged. At my Indian dealership, I'm paying MSRP.
I am glad to hear that Indian gets it!✌️
For now..they're still trying to one up HD.. I've been on Polaris products for 20 + years, and I can tell you they will fuck you like every other company.. right now they're trying to suck up to the biker community to gain ground. And Indian prices aren't any better then HD either lol
@@jimbeam9176 All companies try to make as much profit as possible. When I feel that Indian/Polaris is trying to price gouge me I will take business elsewhere.
Both companies make great bikes. I made my bike buying decision on which company gave me the better deal.
Well, tell us the name of your INDIAN Dealer, because the one I talked to has that added "Surcharge" which in my opinion is not being customer friendly.
Indian dealer in AZ wanted 7k extra in fees for a 2 year old chieftain limited that they can't sell. Then the dealer has the nerve to tell me it's on sale and the sale ends soon like I'm an idiot and don't already know the msrp before I walked in the dealership....I swear these dealers act like it's the 90s and the internet and research doesn't exist
I like HD Breakout a lot. So, I went to visit a local HD dealership and they wanted to charge me a lot over MSRP. So, I eventually bought a 1/12 scale model and I have become a happy owner now ever since.
I used to work for an HD dealer for some years. I sure as heck wouldn't by a Harley newer than 2004. No effing way! Also, almost nothing on a Harley is made in the USA. Harley is assembled in the US, not manufactured here. Haven't been for decades! These days when I see someone on a new Harley, I automatically assume they're a dentist playing dress up as a biker.
Believe it or not, the last year Harley was actually MADE IN AMERICA was 1969! The same year Willie G. sold out to AMF.
Which, BTW, was when AMF's research and development came up with "the cone motor" and "ride em out, push em in!" slogan!
From what I'm now hearing for the last few years, is there's something wrong with the oil return portion of the motor. That problem should have a recall on it. But, that would cost Harley monies. So, in reality, if those parts break, it's now the buyers problem!
@@crazyelf3839 not completely correct. 1970 is the first year for the Showa front end. Soon after the Keihin carb was introduced. Many made in Japan bits and pieces as well. Nothing wrong with a shovelhead engine though. I have 3 shovels and they run just fine. I also have 3 panheads and again they run just fine. In my opinion though the Evo is the best engine they ever made, it was created to be reliable. Low on power though. My daily ride is a 09 Dyna Street Bob. I did a gear drive on it. shouldnt have to go to that expense to make a reliable ride. I should mention that most of my sleds are ol skool choppers with their own obvious crap that breaks LOL. I dont mind though I like to tinker and spin wrenches.
@@chopperchopster
So true! Plus, KHI made engine internals. (Kawasaki Heavy Industries.)
However, God forbid you tell the knuckle draggers that the Evo saved Harley by being reliable because of many Japanese parts!
Showa - owned by Honda.
If only Harley had expanded the Porsche designed V-Rod engine!
Make it 1600, 6 gears, shaft drive and put it in a Garbage Barge. (Dresser). 150hp would have been possible, with a Harley badge on it, but it just would not please those who buy Harleys to put 3000 miles or less per year, between bars/DQ stores.
I still ride one, but it is older (2006) and has many known weak areas.
Harley deserve to be struggling.
@@Dodger2879 they seem to be doing OK thanks to this off road bike thing. Lol. The sportster s as well. Myself I'm not interested . I like my old pans and shovels. My daily ride is an 09 dyna street bob. However I spent the money on a gear drive set up. Ride it every day. Even in the Phoenix heat. (Early morning and at night)
Just watch them duckwalk for blocks
I bought from laidlaws and it was easy as pie. No BS. MSRP and I drove 6 hours to do it. Great dealership. 🤘⚡️🤘✨✨
I am glad the reality matches their good reputation. Thanks for commenting!✌️
Salesperson gave me an OTD price over the phone. She did NOT ask whether I'd be paying cash or financing. Their inventory sells quick!
I’d go to laidlaw to meet him and asevo
but you are likely in state. i am from alabama i dont think theyd give me msrp
They sell at MSRP but do add a care pkg and extended warranty to that.
I had always wanted to buy a Harley after years of owning several Japanese motorcycles. The HD dealership let me test drive one. Drove around for about ten minutes and thought I don't get it, it just an overpriced motorcycle. The salesperson reminded me that I wasn't just buying a motorcycle, I was buying a lifestyle. Then I realized that buying an overpriced motorcycle was for people with a groupie personality. Would be embarrassing to be seen on one.
The lifestyle argument really is a negative for me. I have bought some Harley's in spite of it though but I am alway quick to point out that I own metrics too.
Agreed, I've owned HD, Victory and plenty of metric bikes and will always stick with metric due to their reliability and overall longevity. Not to mention how much cheaper and easier they are to fix.
Agreed Cd DC well said
I'd look stupid on a Harley, some seem to be born to ride HD... I'm not a poser... I like a reliable, smoth, quick bike for 10,000 / 20,000 .. my new fjr1300 is the last street bike I'll ever need..
@@johngibson1439 That is a great bike. I test rode one but haven't owned one yet.
Waited almost two years on a waiting list 20 years ago for a Harley. At that time, there were no new Harley’s in the showrooms. Plus there were still mom and pop dealerships. Only some larger corporate type dealerships were around at that time and those were the ones that had a few bikes in the showrooms that were charging over MSRP because they had the bikes.
Twenty years later, the bikes are plentiful, most of the mom and pop dealerships are now bought out by corporate groups that own a bunch of dealerships and they all charge way over MSRP for bikes that are not quite the same quality like twenty years ago. Just like the cars, appliances, and everything else nowadays, the products’ quality is down, the prices are up, and most can’t be repaired without a “special tool” or a trained tech in computers. Right to repair your own stuff is getting harder. While I do enjoy my 20 year old Harley, the brand is just following all other manufacturers in planned obsolescence and trying to make every penny while they can. Just my opinion.
True. It is getting harder all the time to be able to repair anything.
I gave up on them years ago due to a couple things. 1 the dealers. Ive been in dealerships in multiple states and Ive yet to find one that wasnt condescending to me as a customer and wanted to overcharge me for everything but the air I was breathing. 2 when they started with all the gimmicks. Such as "this is 15k higher because its the super duper rare one that they only made 5 of" and its "well okay whats the super duper difference that makes this one so rare?" and its some cheesy mundane "well it has two tone paint" or "its a limited edition color" and Im all "well shit I can buy the not super duper rare and spend 5 k for paint and save 10k" and I got " well you just dont get it" which is code for "youre not stupid enough Ill save this for the next moron with more money than sense" I had a custom street glide that I had done some work to myself. Nothing tacky just added a little here and there and I added some graphics. Cost me about 1200 bucks and everyone I rode with believed me when I told them it was a super limited edition and that I had given about 18k over the standard model. In fact when I was ready to sell it later a guy paid me more than I paid for it new and it had 48k miles on it even after I told him I had been joking when I told them that. The most important reason I switched back to other brands was I was tired of being associated with all the RUBs that were such assholes and represents the new Harley owners. Ive been riding bikes 47 yrs. Ive been all over. Rain sleet snow etc. And nothing like a wanna be Village People cos player telling me "man you need to get you a Harley and be a real biker" on his 9 yr old bike that has 2500 miles on it lol
I agree with you. There is nothing to prove to other people about what bike or brand of bike a person may choose to ride.👍✌️ I am tired of the dealer nonsense that seems to be so common nowdays.
Used car salesmen
I like the look and sound of Harleys and that is about it. I have had Honda's Yamaha's Suzuki's. It seems all dealers are stealerships. I personally like the reliability of the Japanese motorcycles, I have been on many long distance rides with a mixture of Japanese bikes and Harleys, guess who had 98% of the problems on the road. I have kept a 1986 Honda goldwing Aspencade. I have 98000 miles on it. Have only done general maintenance on it and of course tires and timing belts. Other than that nothing major. Can't say that for any of my friends that have Harleys.
You really can't beat the reliability of the Japanese bikes as you say.✌
I am a long time, hard core, old school motorcycle Biker. I bought my first Harley (used panhead) in 1962 when I was 15 years old. Dealerships back then were mostly small shops with a very limited inventory. Some could be very arrogant but as far as pricing went, the price was pretty much the price. Now as all long time Harley guys know, the MoCo isn't exactly known for producing quality products. This was especially true doing the AMF years. The MoCo will happily sacrifice quality if it saves five cents on the cost of building a unit. This is why S&S is such a great company as they DON'T skimp. If HD didn't make poor reliability crap. S&S never would have gotten off the ground. The twin cam was the first half way decent model HD ever made. I have an S&S powered Evo so I can't say if the old FXRs were good or not. I think it's a little early to know about the M8 although there have been a few very serious problems with earlier models. When it comes to the McDealerships, you might as well be walking into any new car dealership in America. HD sales people there are not Bikers and never will be. They aren't even credible posers. They are sales snakes. And when you meet the finance criminal, all doubt about who they are will be removed. Harley has never, in my overly long lifetime, ever valued me as a customer. And they have never produced a "premium" motorcycle. I'm a good wrench (a skill born of necessity) and can do the upgrades to make mine reliable. Made in America? They aren't even assembled in America. The new CEO (also not American) is making a big deal out of the latest marketing snow job "We provide a premium customer experience to create customers for life". If there was ever a case where talk is cheap, this is it. These geezer posers and wannabes buying glides and tricycles are the only thing keeping Harley afloat. Real Bikers realized long ago the Harley doesn't give a crap about us and never has. I suspect that HD will soon go the way of the idiotic electric motorcycle idea.
Well said. More and more people are realizing that Harley is faking it in so many areas. The Motor Co. won't be around much longer the way they are going.
I have owned 2 Harleys ,2014 Street glide and a 2017 Ultra glide
Sold them both,tired of getting worked every time I went to get parts or
service,bought Japanese bikes,haven’t looked back.
Love having a bike that actually has serious performance and reliability.
I am thinking about going all metric again too.
I’ll never buy another Harley. Metric bikes all the way.
This sound exactly what drove me away from Harley in 2015. At the time, I was a new rider and wanted the Sportster 1200. When the paperwork came back the interest rate was 10.5% and the total feeds drove the bike up to 15K! Once I started waking away suddenly they qualified by for .99%. At that point it was too late. Turned around and bought a Yamaha Bolt for 8K and never looked back at Harley. Now I'm on a Concours 14. If I do get a next bike, it will be a Gold Wing.
The local police in my area swear by the Wing. They ride them personally and professionally.
That Concours is hard to beat. I almost got one after my Electra Glide shit the bed.
I bought a 2022 Indian Springfield at Oklahoma City Indian Dealership and they were right on the price point as seen on the main Indian company’s price. No price bump , no hidden dealership cost . Straight forward sale. They bikes are really nicely set up with many features that are options on Harleys.
That's the way it should be!👍✌️
I was looking at getting a 114" lowrider s last summer, $24k here in alberta. I found a 2013 dyna wideglide with v&h pipes, se intake and cams, and drag bars. Love the bike, couldn't be happier. Glad I looked around a little, saved $10k as well.
There are a lot of gems out there if you want to buy used!✌️
Another red flag 🚩 is when the Harley dealership doesn’t put the price of the bike on the internet.
My local one doesn't. They are banking on the fact that most people won't even looks at the HD website to find the MSRP.
I rode Japanese motorcycles for over 35 years and enjoyed every minute on them until I rode a BMW. I was offered a chance to buy a HD at a tremendous price but found it too loud and too heavy. I went with the BMW K1600 GTL and recently added a BMW 1250 GS as my every day motorcycle, I ride all year. I've compared BMW to HD and there is no comparison. BMWs are not more expensive and they have nearly twice the horsepower an performance of a HD v twin.
I have not owned a BMW bike yet but I hear good things about them.
Perhaps, but BMW is rated 9th out of 10 on the list of reliability. HD is rated 5th..
@@mikewheeler3994 on a comparison by a bs magazine that didn’t factor in mileage ridden, and considered a Bluetooth pairing issue the same magnitude as total engine failure.
I ride a Harley for the sound of that v twin. I’ve had a lot of Hondas when I was young. They were like riding sewing machines. Nothing sounds as visceral as a Harley.
@@mikewheeler3994 I was going to mention something like that until I saw your post.
I’ve experienced the same thing at the local dealership . They wanted to do a credit app before agreeing on a price. Found a used low mileage one for 8k less. I did my homework and passed with flying colors.
Your experience with the credit apo seems like standard practice for most of these dealers now. Glad you were able to get your bike after all!👍
What bike did you end up with?
@@anthonygm85 I bought. Road Glide Ultra 7500 miles
I had a similar experience with a larger dealer. I had a much better experience with another dealer that is smaller, but was willing to do MSRP no problem. I ended up with a used one there anyway.
u know why they to check your credit first?, so they can back door you hoping your stupid. say the bank approves you at 6 percent, they tell you you were approved for 10, and you agree to a “deal” of a lower price, but in reality, they make what ever they are telling you they lowered the price to, along with more, with the added interest
I bought my first new HD in 02. At the peak of high demand. Walked into a dealer (they actually have 2 stores) and said I was looking for either an FXD or a base model Softail. Neither had one on the floor, but they showed ONE FXD in their warehouse. (it was February, too) It had 2 options. They quoted MSRP, and I put 500 down. Said I'd pick it up in the spring. I still have it.
FWIW, I will never buy another NEW bike. Of any brand.
I have been riding a 2001 Heritage Classic since 2004. I bought it used with 13,000 miles. I have other motorcycles so today the bike still only has 35,000 miles. I must say that it has been stone reliable and I have spent very little on it over the years. I did have the cam bushings changed at 30,000 miles. They were still good but did it as a precaution. The little interaction I have had with Harley dealers has been negative and I absolutely detest the prices they charge for parts. I would never pay one dollar over MSRP for a new bike so I guess my Heritage will probably be my last Harley Davidson.
A lot of people are in the same position on this as you are.
Those early twin cams have a good rep other than the issue you mentioned.
I travel 200 miles to get a 2023 roadglide3 @ Bull Run Harley Davidson in Manassas Va. I live in Delaware and some of the dealers are dishonest and called me after my purchase and had the nerve to ask why we didn't get your business and how could we have done better " it was worth traveling fir a good trade in and Bull Shit. These dealers should realize, when their is 6 inches of snow on the ground and a customer comes in to see bikes take them seriously.
I agree with you. I am so tired of the games played by many of these HD dealers. It is like they think that they are doing the world a favor in some way.
Wow, great video. This needed to be said. And also answers the question of why I won't own a Harley. Really appreciate coming out and just being direct about an issue that has bothered a lot of us. Keep up the great videos!
Thanks very much I appreciate it! I think that was my mic drop moment. I am moving on to focus on other brands.👍
Makes me glad I bought a nice, used '05 Sporty (under 11K miles) 6 years ago, for cash. There's a great indie mechanic just across town that specializes in HD (has a great reputation for his work-had some already done there), and I'm happy with what I've got. The bike is carbureted, with no emissions stuff, so if my buddies want to get bigger, newer bikes, have fun and good luck.
You can really have a lot of fun on older bikes for sure. Your bike probably costs less to maintain in a year then one month of payments on a new bike.👍
I bought a new V Rod in 2017 from the Harley dealer in St Paul Mn. After I went there to pick up the new bike and when I got on it to leave with my new bike I discovered it already had 258 miles on it. Well they said they had borrowed it to someone. I thought I was getting a new unused bike, they offered my a hat or a T shirt. I contacted Harley Davidson and nothing happened. All they want is your money and the truth means nothing to them! The dealership has since been sold.
I have no love for the majority of Harley dealers.
In 2003 I paid $17,500 dollars for my FXSTDi Deuce, new. I still own it. It has been 100% reliable for me. I do my own maintenance except tire changes. The reason I have not bought a new one in twenty years is that my "old" Harley is still looks great and rides great. The only new H-D that I would be interested in would be the Pan America. As for the softail cruiser style H-D has stayed so true to their original formula there is nothing "new" enough for me to be tempted to replace my 2003 Deuce. As for H-D moving to be a "luxury" brand, they've been doing that for a long, long time. I can say with experience that my 20 year old H-D's paint and chrome look fantastic. It is solidly made, and the fit and finish still looks fantastic after all these years. Time is what separates products from true luxury (quality) from lower-end products that don't last as well.
Cool story bro
HD dealers are some of the worst I’ve ever dealt with . Car dealers aren’t this bad
wanted a Harley for years but watched loyal customers over years put up with riding lesser quality bikes ,decided no thanks went another direction and Im totally happy with it
A Harley is a lesser quality bike. Everything else is much better.
I agree with everything you said. I think it’s just so sad what is happening to the Harley brand. Let’s not even mention the fact that the one thing every company needs to do to grow is continue to land the newer generations to buy their product. Well guess what, every young rider would much rather by a Japanese motorcycle for half the cost that in many aspects outperforms a Harley. I own a 2021 Steetbob (along with some Japanese bikes 😊) and when I went to the dealer in Orlando, they did the same thing. Msrp was 15,000. They came back with the new price 21,000. I laughed in the managers price and told him there’s no way I’m paying that. He told me “this bike is in high demand, and if you don’t buy it I guarantee it won’t be in my floor for more than 2 days before it’s gone.” I was floored. This pissed me off. So after arguing for about 15 minutes, they lowered the price to 17,000. Which was better but acted like I should be sucking their toes because of it. Once their current demographic is gone (they’re getting old) Harley will go downhill fast.
Thank you. Sorry to hear that you had that experience but believe me, you are not alone in getting shabby treatment from Harley dealers. They are deadman walking from a business standpoint but they will be the last to know it.
I heard that some salesmen say to people "If you think HD is expensive go and buy Honda", and people does 😂😂
The dealer fees are what blows my mind, I was looking at a used bike and they had tacked on over $1k for freight charges. That combined with all the other fees made an “affordable” $9k bike closer to $15k
That is their new business model: charging the "Harley tax".
When I was 14 my parents bought me my first Harley. Slow-forward (ha!) 50 years and I know own my 5th. Although I don't live in my Iowa hometown anymore, the dealership there that celebrated their 80th anniversary as an HD dealer, just gave up their franchise license. Despite having remodeled a few times a very traditional, retro, cool sentimental dealership to the AREA, they were asked to build a new building and the licensing also became too much. So now, SE Iowa has no HD dealer. How sad. Yet my spirit remains an HD girl - when I retire next year I probably will have more time to ride, but can I afford the maintenance. Remains to be seen.
Harley squeezed out a lot of those types of dealers the last few years. The dealers that are left have 50000 ft² facilities with huge overhead.
Good post.
Anyone, who buys a new Harley now, whether he is a CEO, or a bricklayer, has money to burn. They just might not realize it today, but they sure will when they try to sell a slightly used one.
Yes, they will be so upside down which is a double whammy with the current high interest rates.
I saw an interview with the guy running HD and he stated "we are a premium brand and we cater to a premium customer". At least he is honest in that respect.
I like my HD Dyna a lot, but I agree about the Unaffordability of HD. It’s not just the purchase price but also the maintenance cost and everything that comes along with it. if I decide to get a new bike I’ll definitely be looking elsewhere, what you get for what you pay doesn’t add up.
That is a good point. You really do have to look a the total cost of ownership (including cost of insurance) if you want to make the business buying decision from a financial standpoint.
If you can change your own oil Harley’s are cheap to keep. I’ve owned several and never had one leave me on the side of the road.
CJ, another great topic you covered well; thank you. HD corporate could care less. They continue to highlight the CVO’s, then turn out the other models with the same size engine and color. Nuts.
Thank you! They totally pulled the rug out from recent CVO buyers by offering the 117 c.i. engine and CVO colors in non-CVO models this year.
In years gone by, I went into the Marysville, WA Dealership to buy my first HD Sportster & got a really "Great Deal" then, a year later, when I wanted to "upgrade" for More power, the Same people at the Same Dealer told me in No uncertain terms, after going back to get my first purchase paperwork - "THIS WILL NEVER HAPPEN, AGAIN" !!!
They realized that they accidentally made you a good deal on the first bike. That sounds like par for the course with these dealers.
I just bought a Harley Davidson Road Glide Special in March 2022. The sad thing about it is, I live in Anaheim California and I have three local dealers near me. None of them would tell me what my interest rate was on my approval until I sat down and talked numbers! One of the dealers that I finally gave into, told me that my monthly payment would be $795 with putting $8000 down! Asked me to commit to that payment before I went into finance! What a JOKE! Call Superstition Harley in Arizona, and they did the deal with me over the phone.! Less than 15 minutes I had the deal done and I drove 388 miles to go pick up the motorcycle! They gave me my interest rate over the phone for 60, 72, and 84 months. It was my choice on the finance and they had no dealer mark up! Can't believe I had to go out of state to buy a Harley Davidson motorcycle! This will be the last Harley Davidson I will ever buy. This company is a joke and so are their dealerships.....
There are way too many of those kind of dealers out there but I am glad you were eventually able to get the bike you wanted.
Did you try Laidlaws?
I had to negotiate for a week to get a great deal last week at my local HD dealer. I ended up paying MSRP for my 2022 Road King and I got em to upgrade me with the optional RDRS at no cost. They tried to back end me with a higher interest rate (they said I was a tier 2 credit customer rather than a tier 1) but, I haggled for a while on that and ended up getting 3.49%. The key was that I was 100% willing to walk away from the deal without any bluffing. Also, I mentioned Laidlaws (I am only an hour away) and that really helped lol!!
I always helps to be an informed buyer!✌👍
A Harley in 1927 was more expensive than a Ford Model T.
The H-D core customer isn’t the smartest customer in the tool box.
Very intelligent, refreshing and SPOT ON analysis!
The only thing I would add is: No one is holding a gun to our heads.
From southern California - Ride Forever!
Thanks very much! I agree, walk away if the deal isn't what you want. There are other dealers or a person could always get a better deal on a used bike in most cases.👍✌
Thumbs up for Laidlaw Harley Davidson
👍✌️
I hope a get deal when I go this weekend
Truth! There is a large dealer in East Tennessee that has multiple stores and he has mastered the art of separating customers from their money and inflated prices.
Name them.
@@Hooijnbvn They are easy to find. The main store is located in Maryville Tn. They call themselves the rider's destination. They gouge the hell out of folks on routine services. Complete service will be done in 30 minutes but they hold it in the back for a few hours to create the appearance you are getting what you paid for.
BUMPUS
@@Hooijnbvn I will, BUMPUS.
@@im2yys4u81 Yep! Stay FAR away.
Yep. Even back in 2017 I was seeing 5k plus markups here in CA. Both local dealers currently charge, non-negotiable, 8k fees on RG/SG, and something like 5k on other lower models.
Those practices will eventually kill off sales for new bikes when people realize that they can't trade for a new bike by having some much negative equity in the old one.
All of these reasons that you’ve named, is exactly why I will never buy another new Harley from the dealership. I haven’t bought a new bike from them since I bought my last new Buell from them. I was really upset at how they handled that whole situation.
That was a pretty shady episode by HD.
Well I never thought of it like that you definitely open up my eyes year ago I was looking at a 2007 Dyna Lowrider and it was priced at 10 grand and I had about 50,000 miles on it but it was a really nice looking bike and then a year later it’s still on the sales floor and it was it came down to $7600 so I definitely grabbed it for that priceAnd for $7600 it came with all the bells and whistles so far I’ve haven’t had any problems with it knock on wood
That is the way to save some money for sure!
Like any other business, that business is there for one bottom line purpose...to make money. Harley offers a huge line of products, from bikes,apparel,service,rental....you name it. I'm not here to defend Harley...I'm a business man. Harley Davidson Motor Company has no obligation whatsoever to cater to anyone, regardless of loyalty for the brand. I have owned dozens of Harleys over 5 decades starting with the AMF's all the way up to a 2010 FLH Screaming Eagle and enjoyed each and every one of them. But you are spot on...Harleys are wants, not needs. If a person wants the latest and greatest bike, it's gonna cost them. The brand is affordable to just about anyone....one just need to prioritize and remember: financing a "toy" is a big no-no. Save save save for as long as it takes, decide how much one can afford, and find any one of countless used bikes for sale and pay cash. Take a motorcycle safety course offered by most ant community colleges,hop on and enjoy!!
You're right the bottom line it's all about having fun. I fully support rider safety training. I think it's a great thing to do even for people that been at it for a long time.
I bought a new 2000 Road King that I still have and never bought another Harley.
I took my bike to a dealer twice, both time I got screwed , never been back.
Now that they don't support my Twin Cam I'll never need to go back.
Forman Harley-Davidson in Stillwater Oklahoma is a very straight forward no BS dealership.
Thanks for adding them to the list.
I am fortunate enough to have and have had many motorcycles over the past 40 years. I really enjoy reading everyone’s own buying experience. I never saw the need to buy a new Harley as there are thousands of new (rarely ridden, but loved) used Harleys to choose from. Once purchased I put several thousand into each one of them to make my statement and truly make it mine! Here is my truth. My Harleys have a cool factor, like no other because I made it mine! This in turn just makes me smile. Chicks dig Harleys to, so that adds to my smile. I also own a handful of select Honda’s. All of my Honda’s are pretty much stock with the exception of a few gadgets add to each. I love riding them and all of them will out perform my Harleys. They are faster, corner better, super reliable and overall cheaper to maintain. Their cool factor for me is in performance and engineering which makes me smile. When buying a motorcycle start with what you can reasonably afford. Then let that lead you to your next motorcycle and the next smile. Is Harley charging to much for a new motorcycle? Well, it is your money and your smile that matters. So buy what makes you smile big and sleep well at night!,
Very nicely done! I appreciate your thoughtful comments. It really is about the overall experience with the bike that suits each person the best.
I bought a 2019 HD through Military Auto Source. I had to be on deployment to qualify for the program. It was new old stock at the time. I bought it under MSRP with a few extras to include 4 year warranty, $200 gift card, and a rider course certificate. It has been a great bike and the deal to get it was very good. I paid for it in the spring of 2020, while I was in Afghanistan, and it was delivered the summer of 2020, a few days after I returned home. Compared to the dealers in the KC area this was an exceptional deal. It is possible that the dealers lack of understanding for a long term strategy will undermine what I have found to be an otherwise quality product and experience. You are dead on. I hope HD is listening but I do not see any signs of it. I will NOT pay 20% over MSRP. In fact I see no reason to pay over MSRP.
I am glad you were able to get such a great deal! I love the bikes but not the Corporate behavior!👍✌
@@cycletron I completely agree. I picked this bike up at the dealership closest to you. Outside of thier attempt to sell more they have been remarkably underwhelming in thier approach to me as a customer. There is so much opportunity in the HD dealer network but many, not all, seem to be very short-sided.
I was deployed to the Med. in '99. We stopped in Rota for the clean up before returning to the States. While I was walking around the base, I saw a sign that said HD. So I went in and was surprised that I would be able to not only buy a brand new HD, when it was really hard to even find a dealership with a new one able to be delivered within 6+ months, I was able to get the bike delivered to my house, still in the crate if I desired. Oh, and I didn't have to pay full MSRP. So you know I bought it, financed a large sum of the price tag and had it sent directly to my in-law's house. The bike arrived there a few days before I even arrived in N.C. I turned around and sold it to a friend of mine and made $2k.
Harley suspension is made by Showa-japan -owned by Honda corp.
I paid MSRP at Outlaw HD. Rawhide on the other hand, nothing but slimey used car salesmen. Tried every trick in the book to screw me over.
I owned a used 650 BSA for ten years. Moved to S.E. Florida and sold the BSA, cages had no respect for two wheels. 30 years later we moved to Wisconsin. My wife asked “When are we going to get a Harley?”
I checked the used market and found one at a dealership about 150 miles from us and made a tentative deal based on “hands on”. On the way there we had to pass a local Dealer, Uke's. to get to the I. I stopped and told the Dealer I wanted a ride with 1200 cc’s or larger that I could flatfoot the pavement. The Dealer pointed to a 2014 XL1200T that I was standing next to. It felt good and when he started it up, my pen jumped right out of my pocket into my hand. The monthly was the same as the used ride, just a few months longer.
In 2019 I started to look for a trade up. After spending time on the internet it was back to the Dealer prepared to haggle. Got a new 2019 FXLR trading my XL1200T. Based on my research I could not beat the Dealer’s offer for the FXLR and trade. Must just be luck!
I would say that there are straight dealers out there, they just seem to be harder to find these days. Enjoy your new ride!
The Prep/Recon fee of around $1200 the dealer charges you is reimbursed to them by Harley Davidson. Keep that to yourself until you get the final OTD price. Also call around and talk to as many dealers to get the lowest deal. One offered to bring it to me over 4 hours away for free.
Great pointa. Thanks.✌️👍
🤣some hourly wage employee "preps" huh? Oil? Check, brake fluid? Check etc etc but recon? I'm assuming it's reconditioned. Recondition means to rebuild or reconstruct. Hmm.
I find it amazing that Harley zealots always talk about how superior Harleys are, but then you hear about all the negatives of Harley. It really is pretty amazing....
I have owned a lot of bikes over the years and the only ones I ever had issues with were the Harleys. My very first new motorcycle was a 2004 Dyna and I sold it after 4 years cause it sucked. The last 2 Harleys I bought were used because I would never ever pay Harley stupid fees for their bikes.
You’re video is spot-on. HD doesn’t care about the customer/rider anymore, they’re fixated on profitability at every turn.
I bought a new street bob not long ago and it broke down almost immediately. I called the Dealership and they really don’t want to know me. The bike has been stuck there for over a month needing warranty repairs and so far it looks like I’ll still be facing a huge bill. The moment I get the bike back I’m selling it and I’m done with Harley Davidson forever. This is coming from someone who has been a Harley fan since a kid in the 80s and has owned many HD bikes.
Thank you. I am sorry to hear that you have had so much trouble with your Street Bob and your dealer. There might be lemon laws in your state that could cover this situation so you might want to look into it. The dealer might have time limit under such laws during which repairs need to be made to your bike and get it back to you in running order. Good luck. It is still a good time to sell a Harley although you might want to wait until Spring weather kicks in depending on where you live. Here in the Midwest, bikes sales really slow down in the winter.
Harley Davidson has always been high priced but now its Ridculous they have abandoned their core riders.
Good comments on the buying experience at HD. Unfortunately, limited supply and a decent demand can really highlight the bad players. Until we get past supply chain issues, it will not be easy to find MSRP dealers. It's frustrating when you want to support the local dealer and they make it impossible to buy from due to games and price gouging. I've bought a new bike from a big name HD store here in North KC but it was pre-pandemic and it was a carryover from the previous year. I bought a used HD there but it had been in inventory a while. Both of those were decent deals. I would not attempt to buy a Low Rider S/ST there as I know they going to be way over MSRP. I still had to play the games on my last two purchases which has me thinking outside of HD the next time I trade.
Dealerships are independent operators but they are the retail face of HD. Auto dealers have customer surveys that they have to keep a certain score to be in compliance with the factory and/or win factory recognition (Elite , Gold, Presidents Club, etc.) I seem to remember back in the day HD had Gold and Silver rated dealers.
Hopefully HD will work with their dealerships so the customer experience is more consistent. If not, it will eventually catch up to them.
Thanks very much! Yes, it is a lot of work to get a decent deal on a new or used Harley these days. Many car dealers are no different now. I was looking for a car for one of my kids and the dealers were way over priced. They were also adding mandatory $1,500 paint protection packages. Needless to say, I will not buy form these types of dealers even when the market goes back to normal.✌
I have owned quite a few Harleys. Most Dealers suck. Their warranty is a joke. I got tired of it all. I built my own motorcycle with mostly USA stuff. Tires are English. Switches a Taiwanese. Its was a great decision. I recommend it to anyone with some mechanical skills.
H-D priced themselves out of business years ago. Been riding Harley s for over 30 years, but what ruined it for me is they closed a American plant & moved it to Thailand ! Made in USA , I don t think so ! After that I stopped wearing H-D clothing, but kept riding. I stopped riding a year ago, because of cell phones, riding is too stressful add in the fact that Harley prices are astronomical, I QUIT ! F H-D !!!!
I didn't like HD closing that plant either. That plant was in Kansas City. They got millions in tax breaks and only operated the plant for a total of 20 years. I frankly wouldn't be surprised if they move all of their motorcycle production out of the U.S. at some point. The hide the fact that at least 30 to 40 percent of the components are made overseas even for a Harley assembled in Pennsylvania.
Dude the thumbnail for this is-PRICELESS!
Thank you!
Good content, I always wondered what the repo rate on Harley’s was and you touched on it some. I have seen a lot of used bikes just a couple of years old with really low miles for sale at places other than a Harley dealership and I often wondered if they were repossessed
Thanks for watching!👍✌
Some repo's, I'd think. But most of those bikes probably come from Boomers with more money than brains who bought the bike because they are on the 5th mid life crisis, want to live out their Easy Rider fantasies because of some movie they saw, then they hardly ever actually ride the bike, lose interest in a year or 2, and sell it
@@skymningforelsket1302 or people who enjoy riding decent motorbikes and realised they bought a piece of crap
I’ve owned a couple of new Harley’s. My sportster had a few issue but the company fixed them no problem.
My 2006 softail standard had zero issue and was a good bike. Bulletproof
My 2003 softail standard same .
20 yrs old now .
Big Sky Harley here in Montana was great to deal with. Just bought an 05 Superglide Custom. Traded in my ZX10r and got a decent amount for it. They had no hidden or added fees. I’ll go back there when I’m ready for my next bike
Thank you.
I purchased two 22 Street Bobs last year in Butte Montana at Copper Canyon HD. They sold them to me for $15,300 for the first one $15,600 for the second. We traveled 175 miles to avoid the dealership mark up. We purchased the second Street Bob just before the 31 of December 2022. I received quotes from the Missoula and Kalispell dealerships for $17,500. My husband is a DIY kind of guy so the second bike he installed all his own accessories. We didn't know anything about this being a big problem we just found a good deal and are very happy with Copper Canyon HD. Hopefully others can find this information helpful.
Thank you for passing along that information.
Tripp’s HD in Amarillo Tx has always sold at MSRP. In fact my first HD a new 1990 Sportster Hugger. Sold it to me for $1,000 under MSRP. Owner told me he did so because he knew I’d be back for a Touring model. He was right. I’ve bought 11 top of the line bikes since then.
Thanks you for your comments. That is a smart dealer and I don't know why many others can't figure that business model.
There's no excuse for them piling on fees on top of the MSRP, period. HD could clamp down on this dealership bs if they wanted - I guess it's there by their design... I adore the bikes for the passion and talent that goes into them, which makes it more of a pity that the bar and shield is now sullied this way by the suits in the boardroom.
I'm with you: love the bikes but hate the company's practices.
@@cycletron Thanks for the vid, it needs to be said.
i did a market research thing outside a harley dealership. customers were mostly old, married, overweight, and wore harley clothes. Triumph dealership was opposite
Harley Davidson of Lynchburg, Virginia is a MSRP dealer. I just purchased a 120 year anniversary fat boy at MSRP. GREAT DEALER! I could not be happier with the entire team at Lynchburg Harley Davidson.
Most Harley dealers used to have small to medium size dealerships because they had the room that they needed to sell bikes, sell parts and accessories and service bikes. I think very few had the room these new "we all kind of look the same" social centers have. I don't remember seeing a clothing area or a lounge, those dealerships were functional. That all changed when Harley decided to upgrade their image and make their bikes cool and trendy. Every dealership I go into now is large, high end and doesn't have much character. Harley wants it that way, the MacDonalds of bike dealerships. Those small dealerships took on the character of their owners over the years, I bet you'd have trouble finding any two that were even somewhat alike. Harley wants to be a luxury brand with an image because that's their target market. If you are an older Harley owner (me) this may not feel right but this is the say it's going to be. But I will always miss wood floors that creaked, wooden display cases and employees that didn't all wear the same shirt.
I do remember the old style shops. The new style stores with 50,000 square feet plus if floor space have massive overhead which promotes the shady behavior to squeeze every dime out if their customers.
This is exactly why I want to start my own Motorcycle company. To make a complete line of products from an affordable yet value packed entry level bike, all the way up to a full dressed, bagger line up and both ICE and BE. All with as much or as many parts Made in America as possible, if not 100% when possible.
I have often wondered if someone could do that, kind of like what Janus is doing.
@@cycletron Janus? Never heard of them. I wanted to get someone like Buell shortly after his manufacturing fiasco, but it looks like he's starting up another venture. He's a great engineer and designer, but not always the best business man. That's why I want to build a great team. Maybe even get some guys from Alta, you know, since HD sort of ruined them and assisted in their demise.
@@jmackinjersey1 These inflated prices and shady practices by the Motor Company and many of their dealers is priming the pump for independent operators or custom shops to step in with their own bike production.
@@cycletron I get it. I grew up on and around HD from a young boy, and in fact I had a HD Dirt Bike back in the early 80's. (I'm 47 now) A lot of my family and friends had their larger street bikes. I remember the die hard owner/riders with the leather and long beards etc. (Stereotypical). I also had a few friends/family members that were whit collar guys that would enjoy some find in their faces on the weekends on the potato poppers and oil leakers. But as time went on, the bikes got a lot better, and of course I remember the dealerships in certain areas were run down, hole-in-the-wall places that were more garage shop than actual show room. Then Honda really started kicking them while they were down, and then HD pulled themselves out of that rut. Well, we both know what happened in the early 90's to pull them out of said rut, and look at their smugness attitudes now. They are out of their minds with their pricing and sales tactics. Although I will admit that I have not gone to all of the dealerships in all 50 States, but the ones that I have gave me different vibes. For the most part though, I can say that they really, really like holding on to their bikes a lot more than they like making deals, and the same thing goes with their used bikes. Although the Dealership near me now was a great place to shop and even hang out. They used to have weekend get togethers and have live bands, food and even free drinks with a limit of 2. Then they switched management teams or maybe just GM's, and the gray clouds started rolling in. Then they got another GM in and it was even worse. The same guy or guys own it, but it doesn't seem like they can get the right management. I don't even like going there for merch and more.
With all of the competition, as well as core buyers of the days of yore aging out, you would think that changes would come from corporate on down. But it doesn't seem to be that way.
@@jmackinjersey1 I agree with you it's like watching a train wreck in slow motion. Everybody knows how it's gonna end but it still seems like there should be time to get things squared away. There just seems to be no will at the corporate level and with many of their dealers to do it.
You've done a great job in giving an accurate overview of why HD is not a good buy. Bottom line is they know their fan base is so devoted that they can just gouge away. I've been looking at bikes for about a year now and sure see a lot of Harleys for sale used. I wonder why. And they're all priced high. I'm looking for a late 90's to early 2000's Kawasaki Voyager now . Most are priced around 3K to mid 4K's
Thank you, I appreciate it! This is what happens when a corporation is only focused on short term gains. Just one example is all the cash HD has spent in buying back their own stock to boost its price. That money could have been invested in research and development or manufacturing upgrades.
Screw it, I am a woman, 70 yrs old. Been riding for years. I have a 2016 fatboy and I had my first wreck. My bike is being fixed. I am healed. I wanted to buy a new bike. My experience wasn't good. So, from private parties, I bought a 2006 Softail Deluxe and a 2007 Virago for a lot less then I could get a new Harley. Love both bikes! Both bikes are immaculate with low milage. There is no heart left in Harley Davidson. They are feeding on greed and don't care about hurting American Citizens. I wish Elon would buy them out and bring manufacturing back home. I agree with the title of this video!
Someone will buy the scraps of what used to be HD for pennies on the dollar if things keep moving in the current direction.
FTF!!
As a long term Harley rider, this video is spot on. I can also say that Fuck The Factory!! says it all. They're a greedy corporate monster who will only work on their current line of bikes and maybe the previous ones. Most dealerships balk at working on Evos at this time, preferring only to go back so far as Twin Cams.
I've never bought a brand new bike off the showroom floor. Have bought 2 used ones from the local dealership. And many from private sellers. Love the biked, hate the company.
You sum up my sentiments exactly. Thanks for watching!✌👍
Oh Yeah !! I want to pay double for a bike that's an antique before leaving the show room.. HD fleecing people and they love it !!
I bought my Harley in late 1977 it was a pre 78 lowrider. I wont tell you the price as it will make you cry. I sold it as a basket case, new plunger frame 18 over springer, custom fuel tank and custom
Wheels. Rebuilt engine and transmission all parts, original and custom in boxes for 100.00 less than I paid for the bike brand new in 2012. I have been looking at new bikes for the last 4 years due to a back injury I did not get serious until last year, 2023. I tried 3 different dealers the one in my town wanted 8000.00 over MSRP for a Road Glide limited and out of town the best I could do was 6000.00 over MSRP. I really liked the CVO but at 60,000.00 or just a little more out the door it was a no go. Today that new 2023 CVO Road Glide at my local dealer is MSRP and a few miles down the road so are the 2023 Road Glide limited. They are over stocked on 2023 models and I think they are selling g the 2024 models at MSRP also. I would never consider buying g from my local dealer as when he quoted me that price with 8000 over MSRP and I questioned him about it he pulled out the invoice and showed me a breakdown. I said see the markup you make money at MSRP, its built I to the price. His response was well yes but not enough.
HD and most of their dealers have gotten greedy. That is why HD is shutting down the Mom and Pop dealers to make way for more Mega dealers and their sales palaces.
I agree, and I feel the same way. I’ve bought 4 Ultra’s from the same dealer over the years, and now they want over MSRP! Not too me they won’t. I’ve upgraded my 2012 FLHTK, and I’m keeping it. My next touring bike will probably be a Honda Goldwing DCT.
As for the bikes themselves, I have loved my HD's (both bought used). That said, almost every single visit I have made to the dealer has been a negative experience seemingly designed to shame me into buying newer bikes or merch to keep up. I couldn't give two shits less about keeping up. If that were important to me, HD's would never have been my choice in the first place. I like what I like and 'new' has very little to do with it. Moreover, almost every single piece of HD merch has turned out to be absolute garbage, from overpriced 'boots' with thin leather and shamefully cheap build quality to overpriced sunglasses with lens clarity roughly equivalent to the $5 pair at the gas station. I am done with the brand for its own sake, in fact, it embarrasses me to be associated with a group of people that dress like pirates and which HD themselves have obviously targeted as small minded brand loyal suckers driven by a deep rooted insecurity they would never admit but which the brand can so obviously take advantage of. The only time I thought the brand itself as cool was before I owned one of their bikes (and realized my Road Star was better built) or actually tried to use any of their willfully low quality merch products. The truth is I own 3 HD branded leather jackets all bought 2nd hand but am a bit embarrassed to wear them. That said.....I still freaking love my Fatboy and wish I had never sold my StreetBob!
Well said! It is definitely a love-hate thing for me with HD too. It is clear though that HD and many if their dealers see their customers as pure suckers.
Hey sawtooth thought I'd comment or reply on your comment yeah I can see where you're coming from my first Harley was given to me as a gift cuz my uncle had tons of money didn't know what to do with it he went out and bought two lowriders one was the Sturgis at 82 I think it was the first year that came out he took one and he brought it and had it machines blueprinted you know street street racer I gave it to me as a gift brand new that was my introduction to Harley I love that bike it was stolen in the end but that's another story and my last bike I went blind I started to go blind in the late 80s and had to stop riding and driving in the mid-90s was a find lowrider frame with a 71 shovelhead engine but the bike was beautiful most of my vehicles I always bought were used also cuz you didn't mean anything to me like you I wanted what I wanted if it was a classic car you know instead of spending money on a new car you know I'd buy like something like you know 16 birth that's the way I used to like to roll but I never once bought any a holly merch not once a matter of fact my motorcycle jacket for a long time was the old standby the shot Perfecto Marlon Brando's jacket LOL and then later on my girlfriend bought me a Wilson motorcycle jacket it was more stylish than it was really a motorcycle engineer you know for safety and you know extra pay it in here where you need it and and I I cut the Perfecto jacket I cut the sleeves off of it because I outgrew it the and used it as a cut so yeah but never never bought any merch never felt the need to I miss riding dearly it's painful it's very emotional but that's a whole other story anyway enjoy enjoy riding whatever you're writing now and stay safe dude PSA the dealership from the when my uncle bought the Harley's new from in New York City they were really really cool very nice people very very nice people and they treated me like gold literally I mean it was amazing it's like when I had some surfacing done on the bike and when I went to go pick it up guy that work there I guess the service manager whatever he says all you got to wait got to wait like 5 minutes can't take goodbye I said why it says other than smudges on it I was like God be kidding he said no he has one of the workers come out with like a spray bottle and some polishing cloths and closet and took the smudges off and then gave me the bike back I mean really they were really cool anyway off topic maybe but what the hell
If you can't maintain and repair one of the newer DISPOSABLE Harleys...then you are wasting your money buying one.
The solution to all of this is SIMPLE...don't buy a Harley Davidson. Don't even go to a dealership to try and buy one. It's called a "buyers strike." I've been riding HD's for 30 years. Life HOG member, blah, blah. But I got so fed up with their crap I sold both my Harleys (RoadGlide Ultra and a Low Rider) and bought a BMW K1600b. Buy an Indian, buy a Gold Wing, buy a BMW, but ANYTHING except a Harley Davidson. Problem solved.
I think that it right. Harley seems to think people are desperate to buy their bikes. They will be in for a rude awakening soon.
Craigslist boys. Tons of garage queens at 1/2 the price of new. Worlds full of squids that bought a big ole bagger that they can't ride and/or scared of.
It is amazing that so many people buy bikes and don't ride them.
I've heard many of the HD OEM parts are made in China. That's real American craftsmanship right there! All these publicly traded "lifestyle" companies have sold their soul anyways. How Harley is even in business still boggles my mind.
Probably not for much longer though as their survival is far from guaranteed.
@@cycletron dumb comment not based in reality
Absolutely spot on with all your comments, I was at first ready to buy from my local dealer in Santa Fe, NM a new ‘22 Nightster in ‘22 and had done all my price research knowing MSRP, shipping, surcharges, NM tax and doc fees and was prepared to pay reasonable doc fee overcharges from the dealer. I walked into the dealership, was greeted by a sales person with the usual corporate script (been buying HD since 1969) asked for an out the door cash price, the floor mgr came out, got my basic info, went to sales mgr, came back with a written quote of almost $22,000 for a bike that listed for $13,500 MSRP. I said no, he asked what I would pay, I quoted to him the MSRP, shipping, surcharges and what I thought would be more than double fair doc fees, this came to $16,000. He came back with almost $18,500 and stated that was the lowest. After researching the majority of dealers in all the bordering states of NM (took two days) I drove to Tucson Harley Davidson and picked up my new Nightster for $16,000 out the door which included the sales tax paid to AZ which is more than double NM vehicle sales tax, and it only cost me $32 to register it NM after the AZ title arrived. Now Tucson HD is a corporate/conglomerate owned dealership but still at least advertises MSRP and will give an out the door price (all costs incl tax) that is fair in this market environment. They did play the costs on paper to be the most beneficial to them, ok, as long as it was $16,000 to me. A month later I saw they had received a ‘23 Low Rider S in White Sand Pearl about $19,000 before ship,surcharges, I contacted my sales person the next morning to see what he could do, expecting to go up to $23,000 out the door and he came back with $22,500 OTD. The deal was done and I picked it up by the end of the week. Both these buying experiences have been positive and pleasant. If you are interested the sales person is Chris Newman and the dealer is Tucson Harley-Davidson.
Thank you for your comments. I absolutely love the Low Rider S so great choice! It is a shame that some dealers make thing so difficult. What your story illustrates too is how some HD dealers are cannibalizing future sales when they get somebody to pay way over MSRP. In your case, if you had paid even $18,500 for the Nighster, they probably would have only given you no more than $11,000 on a trade which would have put you way in the red on a trade and that is too much negative equity to roll into the price of a new bike given the higher interest rates. Harley corporate doesn't seem concerned about this issue and is just hoping that people won't default on their loans and they don't even seem to consider how far off into the future they are pushing out peoples ability to trade for a new bike later.
I bought a basket case shovel head back in the early 90's, fixed it up and thought I had arrived. Within about a year or so I didn't know if I would be riding the bike home or walking. I spent more time working on it than riding, but I was young and still impressionable enough to believe in the whole American mystique around HD bikes. I finally sold it 15 years later and would never consider riding, forget about buying another one. In all my years of riding motorcycles, I have yet to encounter a Harley trained mechanic that would be interested in working on even an evo anymore.
I think going with an independent shop (or being able to do all the work yourself) is about the only option to keep an older bike on the road. Too much of the repair work today at the dealers seems to be limited to replacing the bits and pieces that the diagnostic computer tells them to replace.
@@cycletron I can't go to any dealership, (motorcycle, automobile, boat, etc.) and ask them about a part unless I have a part number. As much as I loved riding my Harley and the way it sounded, in my old age, I've discovered that I much prefer riding a more reliable motorcycle than working on it. I picked up a Yamaha Raider about a month ago, and people will walk up and say, "Hey, nice looking Harley." I actually enjoy telling them that it's a Yamaha.
However, I didn't go straight to Yamaha. A few years after selling my Harley, I built a chopper with a RevTek engine. This was back when choppers were popular. The engine ran great for 15 years, but a lot of the other parts were Harley or aftermarket Harley, and that stuff all started to disintegrate to the point where I just gave the thing away. I guess the point is that no one seemed to notice that I wasn't riding on a Harley frame or engine, and i couldn't really tell the difference. I can't tell the difference on this Yamaha either. The only real difference is that I'm not constantly waiting for something to break on this bike.
The other thing I've noticed people doing is they'll take a metric bike and attach Harley fairings, bags etc. to the point where it looks almost identical to a Harley full dress bagger, and just like you mentioned before, there are shops that will do this to your metric bike for a fraction of what it would cost to get a HD.
There's an interview Ralph Barger did about 15 years ago where he admitted that if he didn't own a Harley dealership, he'd be riding a metric. He also alluded to the fact that the real blue-collar workers aren't riding Harleys, or at least not brand-new Harleys. They're riding the affordable, reliable bikes.
@@shnarklevonbarkle110I didn't realize that people were "Harleyfying" their metrics. Honda has gone the same route with adding hard bags and a batwing fairing to the 1100 Rebel.
You are making great points with your comments and have triggered some new video ideas for me, so thank you. I really like the Raider. I nearly bought one a few years ago.
I have an upcoming video where I interview the owner of an independent motorcycle repair shop owner so please stay tuned for that one.
I could be wrong, but it wouldn't surprise me if Harley-Davidson eventually ends up being a Chinese-owned company.
Never say never. Stranger things have happened to be sure!
As usually you nailed this one. The dealers are the worst kinda scum. I absolutely hate to go into one. Heck ya can’t even make it to the parts counter without someone trying to sell you something at a great price today. They can get bent as far as I am concerned
Thanks Dave! They will have to come around eventually to survive but we shall see!
@@cycletron Many won't survive. Today, since many HD dealerships are just subsidiaries of big automotive chains, they will just close the doors when times get tough.
@@m.f.m.67 I think you are exactly right on that.