“What you call genocide I call a days work.” That line always makes me think of M Bison’s awesome/terrible line. “The day Bison came to your village was the worst day of your life, for me it was Tuesday.”
I honestly believe without this episode to change Kira's direction, the episode where she's kidnapped and told she's a Cardassian would have played out EXTREMELY differently. As it is, she's willing to accept there are good Cardassians and becomes a supporter of the Dissident movement and even forms a close bond with the one who thought he was her father. The closest backslide she has is "Darkness and the Light" but the guy DID just murder literally every friend she ever had in Bajor.
@@charlesburrows687 A lot of season 1 could have been TNG scripts and are in fact, well, recycled TNG scripts. Even the good ones, like The Hunted I think it was where O'Brian helps Tosk the proto-Jem'Hedar escape could have easily taken place on TNG with minimal adjustments. Duet, however, was very DS9.
My feeling that Odo was very much in character in this episode. He had been operating under Cardassian laws and regulations the Federation and Bajorian are still new to him so he not using them yet he is expecting Sisko to react the same as a Dukat would. Something you might want consider doing some research on is the Japanese war crimes tribunal's for some background on how little evidence could be used to bring charges.
Odo is very respectful to Kira in this episode, even his “I understand” when Kira is given the lead in The Maritza Case, not out of spite, because I think Odo knew what happened in the labor camps and couldn’t stop it all
Very fitting and well done episode. And incredibly valid in this current political climate. Indeed one of the best lines of the series comes from Dax. "You sound like you want him to be guilty. You know that punishing him without cause won't accomplish anything. And you know vengeance isn't enough." Also it shows that, in spite of the age old trope, victims can turn into victimizers. So it has with the Bajoran, and so it has with other groups throughout history.
I’ve always struggled with the idea that Darheel could have been such a public figure and neither the Bajorans nor the Feds would know whether he was dead or alive after he got the royal treatment at his funeral. I overlook it for the sake of such a good story, but it still bugs me.
I get the feeling that Cardassia was like certain European powers. Every moderately decorated officer, who dies without a cloud over him, gets a big state funeral, for propaganda. Foreign powers tend to stop paying attention after the third colonel's state funeral *today*
I wonder just how to cut off Cardassia is from the rest of the quadrant. I mean even today there are countries in the real world where hard intelligence can be difficult to acquire. There was a point, and maybe it's still a point, where we don't know if the leader of North Korea is even alive or dead. With the Obsidian Order, It's not impossible to think they could keep outsiders from coming in?
@@Aeradom2000 So soon after decolonization, you would expect enough residual connections between Bajor and Cardassia for the former to keep track of developments of the latter that are of serious interest. As for the Feds, it's more plausible, but then again, Cardassian counterintelligence isn't really that effective against Starfleet. Remember when Dukat's long lost twin was aboard the _Enterprise_ and Data let slip that he could read Cardassian transponder codes? Picard's efforts to gloss over it were quite amusing. At any rate, at this point in the Trek timeline I think the thing that most likely limited Starfleet's intelligence gathering on Cardassia was a lack of interest. Up until "The Maquis" or so, the brass really didn't seem to make the Cardassians a high priority.
@@aperson22222 The Bajorans might know about Darheel's funeral but assume the Cardassians would be willing to fake public funerals of prominent officers they know the Bajorans are hunting for war crimes.
It is something in this episode and those going forward that at this time kira is a devoted bajoran officer with a neutral to argumentative relationship with starfleet. I find it telling that during the beginning, middle, and end of the dominion war Kira goes from bajoran officer and "freedom fighter" with a mutual hatred for cardassian due the past to bajoran officer with a distinguished record and supporter of both the federation and bajoran relations. Eventually joining starfleet.
Sorta. She'd grown quite a respect for the Federation as the rest of the crew along with Sisko became very much her closest friends. She even tried in the middle of the series, I think to even give Dukat a chance, till he clearly couldn't resist overdoin it all. An through the likes of Garak an Dukats daughter plus a few episodes like this she grew outta solid hate for the Cardassians as she realized quite a few also must've hated the occupation. I wonder if she FIRST heard such things from Dukat of all people, he CLAIMED as much but all villains CLAIM to think like he did too. Also, NOT totally sure but think the commission was a special thing just to make the Cardassian Resistance behave and remind them they need her and her Fed friends to keep their Movement alive and to teach them what they don't know.. a whole new kinda war... Which apparently, most Cardassians suck at
Legally speaking I think there was every justification to hold him. They have evidence that he was present when war crimes were committed. Even if the man himself is not personally guilty of war-crimes he could possibly identify people he witnessed committed war-crimes or at the very least NAME some of the people he served with. You don't need that much suspicion for the police to hold you for 24 hours without charges and this episode looks like it took less then that.
that's a legal theory that wasn't even around when this episode was written. Today its acceptable in the types of courts that deal with it to consider someone who was present at the time of warcrimes to be at least possibly guilty of warcrimes. its something that is still controversial and obviously has its flaws, like how far down the line are people responsible
Actually you are not wrong. Look at how former Nazi concentration camp guards and staff are treated. Once it's proven they were at one of those camps, there is reasonable suspicion that they are a war criminal, and their guilt is assumed unless they can prove otherwise. Once they're found to have been there, they can try to mount an affirmative defense that they were there against their will or tried to subtly undermine the horrible things being done, but barring that the mere fact that they were there is enough to convict them as an accessory to murder. The person in this episode was proven to have been working at what was basically a concentration camp, in at least some capacity. That is reasonable suspicion that they are a war criminal, right there, and plenty of reason to hold them until more information can be found. That's the legal precedent they were working off of.
Odo jailing someone for running is incorrect, but asking why they ran is not. The question is investigatory not accusatory. You are asking to see how they respond. Do they stammer? “Well...well...well, because...” or do they answer as he does.
Dude could've been the EXCEPTION to the "Cardi" Kira at this point in the Series is used too. Remember this same Kira, comes to really get close an protective of Gul Dukats daughter, comes to like an respect Garek and even learns to bury the hatchet with and learn to respect Damar.. MUTUALLY though I guess if Damar had survived neither woulda probably admitted that
Although you still get steps backward. In a later season, Kira declares "You're a Cardassian. I don't care if you killed Bajorans or cleaned shoes, you were ALL legitimate targets."
@@ARC5 I'd have to rewatch those episodes but I think the arc POSSIBLY hinted that's why Dukat ALSO had such a relationship with her. Cuz he was somehow connected like that to her
ARC5 absolutely. She was kidnapped and made to think she was a cardassian agent. The whole plot was to make him betray himself. Again it showcases how things are different behind closed doors
He's the man who saved the Alpha Quadrant. He set the groundwork to win the Dominion War before anyone even knew who the Dominion WAS. It took Kira a long time, and a lot of stumbling to overcome her hatred, but he was the one who started her down that road. And if anyone EVER doubts she overcame that, she all but forgave Damar for Ziyal's death
First, I just wanted to say how much I love your videos!!! I 100% agree with you about Odo's running away = guilt is absolutely wrong and used too often by the police in the real world. Butr I disagree with you about Maritza. Remember, he created a filing system that was so efficient, he would later teach filing on Cardassia. In other words, he created a way to make it easier for the Cardassians to oppress hundreds of millions of people. But for that filing system, the Barjoran resistance might have been even more difficult to keep suppressing. The Cardassians might have been forced out of Bajor years or even dacades earlier, saving countless lives, not to mention suffering under slavery. I think he didn't understand the role he had played in the occupation of Bajor, but once he realized it, he began his plan to sacrifice himself to the Bajoran people in hopes that he could heal a portion of the harm he seemingly unintentionally caused.
That seems a bit of a stretch. So you are saying that if it wasn't for his filing system, the Bajorans could have driven them off earlier? Bear in mind that they weren't driven off but instead withdrew. Much like the US didn't lose the Vietnam war, the simply withdrew and allowed events to play out. Plus, there's not to say that someone wouldn't have come in and filled his place as a filing clerk. For all we know what he was really effective at filing was how many forks and spoons were brought in.
Ultimately a powerful episode with an important msg. I'm not sure it would have worked as well if they weren't able to get whomever played this cardassian.
It was a good way to establish Kira, before this episode we didn't get to know that much about her, but in this episode we learned more about her flaws, but also that she was capable of realizing her mistakes, act on that realisation and grow as a person. Making her act much better or worse in this episode would have defeated the purpose.
Hold up man. You said that they wanted to kill this man because he was Cardassian and at the DS9 version of Auschwitz. That's false. He was being held while they confirmed his identity, after he had lied about not being at the labor camp. If it was Gul Darhel, they would've charged and punished him for war crimes, just like Nazi leaders. Marritza wasn't trying to take all the blame unto himself. He was trying to get caught from the beginning to have the war crimes tribunal have a public trial, that way the true crimes of the Cardassians would be known throughout the quadrant. He felt like the atrocities performed needed to be brought forth and Cardassia needed to accept their crimes and face judgement. As for Sisko and the Federation, they only administrate the station. Any and all laws and charges are run through the Bajoran Magistrate, not the Federation.
Why do people ask, "What's your opinion," when they should ask "What is your opinion on this?" I can give you my opinion on a million different topics like while loving your scene analysis series it is making me view things very differently, but that does not contribute to the conversation we are expected to be having, is it? So I will quote Frank Herbert and also say all Spoon heads are guilty and must pay. “Governments always commit their entire populations when the demands grow heavy enough. By their passive acceptance, these populations become accessories to whatever is done in their name.” ― Frank Herbert
There was a video up that broke down this episode and compared it to Arthur Hiller's The Man in the Glass Booth with clips from both. But it can no longer be found, I am assuming it was taking down for copyright issues for using clips and comparing both. But the premise, plot, and even lines spoken are really close to Arthur Hiller's The Man in the Glass Booth.
It would be highly unrealistic for her entire world view to be changed instantly after one day, that’s just not how people work, especially when a belief is ingrained so deeply.
Well if the Event has enough impact on you why not? There are a lot of people who change their while life because they had a near death experience. Plus the entire thing could have lasted a couple of days and she did get a lot to think about.
this is a very interesting thing you bring up at the begining that even the federation seems to agree with that the bajorons can do no wrong and the cardasians can do no right. sadly this seems to be a mentalitly that i feel like the federation seems to have itself.(so bajor would actually fit perfectly in the federation)
@@LoreReloaded Considering the person they arrest guilty? yes probably, that's basically what anyone who arrest someone think like. That doesn't mean the Cardassian was arrested without probable cause. Their job is to arrest people if they have probable cause, and then let a court decide of their innocence or guilt. Kira wanted him to face the equivalent of Nuremberg, not carry the execution herself the moment she got the confession.
@@leGUIGUI But probably cause of what? All they had at most was that the guy was at the labor camp at the time of the accident. I don't think that's a crime.
@@Aeradom2000 That you were part of the Cardassian occupation in a place where war crime were committed on a daily basis is enough to warrant an investigation. It's basically the same as being caught on camera right next to a crime scene close to the time at which it happened and also being know for being acquaintance with people who really hated the victim.
@@leGUIGUI Investigation certainly, but not arrest. I mean let's give another analogy, this would be like saying any on the same floor of the hotel where a murder took place, or hell whole hotel is warranting fo being arrested, and not simply interviewed. If this is Federation or even Western law, while they will call in you for an interview, you will no be detained. For that, there has to be an actual crime that you are being held in regards to. Besides, it's not exactly like he's a flight risk on a space station.
she thought he was guilty . once she found out he's innocent she defended him but a random bajoran killed him despite knowing he's innocent , just because he's a cardassian
Even when presented with evidence she wanted to out right deny it for most of it. She wanted him to be guilty .. but once she had to accept it.. she did and I think it changed her. I agree
a good episode, one of the better ones. it shows the difference between human/western justice and bajoran justice. it also shows the advantages of each. in the human form of justice you would never really know definitively if he was the butcher or not as he would have never been held for being such. the investigation could have gone forward, but they wouldn't have had him in order to get him to admit that he wasn't the butcher. on the one hand you get the truth from bajoran justice, on the other you don't impair one's rights in human justice. the downsides other than the infringement of one's rights with bajoran justice is that you paint a target on an innocent's back for those that don't care about justice. if you care about truth more than the innocent then bajoran justice is for you, if instead you favor the rights of the innocent then human justice is the right one for you.
Regarding the funeral in Cardassia..... What can be confirmed exactly? They could confirm that a funeral was officially held for person A, and the Cardassian authorities told their public it was person A but that in no way guarantees it was person A, so that whole point is relatively moot.
I was a teenage when this episode first came out and thought it was interesting, showing 2 sides of a coin and how each of them thought of what they did. When it was revealed that the person was not who he claimed to be I thought he was trying to punish the cardassians. Looking at is as an adult I see a small man pretending to be someone he was not in a vein hope that he would some how hurt his people. All it would have really done was made the divide even worse, if he succeeded. The cardassians would say that this was not the man he claims to be and this is just a show trial and the bajorns not believing anything they say. If he truly wanted to get his people to change then he should have found a way to make it happen on his own planet. As I stated in the last video, true he is only one person but every movement, I repeat every movement begins with 1 person. In the end he seemed to realized like Kira that this was not going to do what he hoped. perhaps had he not been murdered he would have tried a different tactic, but we will never know.
I was wondering what yourcthiughts ate about the Cardassiian who was hunting and killing Kira and her friends from her resistance cell. Sjr still doesn't consider him an innocent vuctim of the bomb she planted to kill a Cardassiian official. She even says that his claims of being innocent as just an excuse.
So like Poland and Czechoslovakia dealing with Germans. There were many such cases and thousands of real Kiras, as far as I know and worse for both sides.
I am sorry, I was born in the times (holidays of st. Wenceslas 1945)there and for me it's more like a part of living present... I wish not to bother with that forgotten past, but I often felt like one of Cardassians/Bajoran children. 😓
3:15 - IRL? USA? The law allows for a suspect to be held for an extended period on any charge before arraignment, and then detention pre-trial... all BEFORE conviction. This episode spans the passing of a day, and he's accused of being a leader involved in the genocide of Bajorans. Even n the USA, we'd hold someone like that for their own protection, as in the public they would become a target (as this man later becomes); extreme circumstances of the case can allow for more intensive protocols regarding one's ability to exercise one's rights. There are always exceptions in our constitution: the right to bear arms (in an organized and official militia force), the freedom of speech (unless threatening, calling to arms, exposing state secrets, needlessly causing fear and hysteria, forming violent mobs to express dissatisfaction, etc)...Every law ad even constitutional amendment has written-in exceptions to the base understanding. The NAZIs were rounded up and held whether officially charged or not, simply on accusation in some case (mainly clerks and low grade officers, such as Lieutenants in less immediate capacities involving the Holocaust)...They were all later** charged, tried, and sentenced. In some case, charges were added or decided upon the release of the facts, as much of what had occurred would take years to uncover, and they had the individuals there already. Was it wrong to uphold that strategy given the exigent circumstances of the crimes alleged and situation surrounding them? Given that this plot of Cardassian vs Bajoran is an analog to the Holocaust, is it truly beyond anyone to see holding the man as a precaution? 1. The man's alleged status makes him a public target, so detention = protection until more can be determined. This is done today. 2. The man's allegations involve genocide; a matter so grave and sensitive that no chance can be justified, even at the expense of temporary freedom. Certain crimes are just too damn extreme to put the individual first. Suck it up. Also, a Cardassian, proclaiming to be a war criminal (whether he was one or not) walks the promenade of a people who took it from his own, and hate him on an almost inherent basis for what was done to them by people like him...What should he expect? A parade? That he was arrested rather than cycled between beatings and healings until he died of some other cause is a courtesy beyond any I would expect given the circumstances. If he wasn't intending to get caught for the plot of the episode, I'd say he was both stupid and lucky beyond what should be physically possible.
This episode really, really, gets to me. I served in the Air Force during OIF and much like Miritza I was in a non-combat role serving a war machine as a cog not a grinder and yet never the less knew all too well that lives of so many people from my fellow servicemen, enemy combatants, and Iraqi were being ended and torn on mass to serve absolutely no greater end whatsoever. I knew the Bush administration was lying to world about Saddam having WMDs, President Clinton had seen to it that even the possibility of Saddam having the facilities to produce and store such weapons was completely destroyed in that whole supposed "wag the dog" incident. Cheney and Rumsfled had simply convinced themselves and the President that since at the time a definitive victory on Al Quida in Afghanistan was not going to be secured before the 2004 election that they secure such a definitive victory in Iraq while they scaring Iran and North Korea from pursuing WMDs if the made an example of the Saddam regime and that technology had magically changed the logistics of occupation and nation building as such that Iraq could be made into a stable nation and ally without the manpower the brass knew damn would require a draft. Consequentially I knew how OIF would end before it began: that the OIF would leave Iraq an unstable mess that the US would ultimately walk away from for all that war cost and is costing we will have less than nothing to show for it. Like Miritza I could see the horror happening and was a party to it though not an active participant in it and there was nothing I could do about it save land myself a dishonorable discharge and jail time in Fort Leavenworth for breaking the oath I to follow the lawful orders of the POTUS, the US Congress, and the Officers they appointed even though President W Bush's Administration had broken their oaths to the US Constitution, the Nation, and its people. So instead of maytring my future for doomed cause that the vast majority of people can't even be be bothered to ponder I just focused on doing my job to support my fellow serviceman who had likewise been morally compromised by leaders that betrayed their oath and their duty. Being morally compromised like that haunts me still and it always will but at least Miritza I won't forget what happened or make excuses for it. I know Rumsfled and Cheney will not be met with the justice they deserve in life but I will do all that I can to see that they are reviled in memory for all time for the lying arrogant monsters they are and I will personally piss on their graves.
Assuming that the guy was guilty just because he was in the camp isn't illogical. I mean what Cardassians would even be in the camp besides the guards and administration? I mean even visitors to such a camp wouldn't even be innocent. By the way when Germans put concentration camp guards on trial they don't accusse them or murder because that's incredibly difficult to prove but of participation on mass murder. Just by working in the camp the person is gulty.
There wasn't much the Federation could have done as Deep Space 9 was a Bajoran station operated by Starfleet at the invitation of the Provisional Government. What the Bajoran Provisional Government knew at the time was a Cardassian with a very rare disease that could have only been contracted at this particular labor camp during a very particular incident was on their station. While we can say it isn't enough evidence to arrest him for, to hold him for suspicion isn't only justifiable in the context of the episode, it's common today to bring someone in and hold them for questioning. It's indefinitely holding someone without formal charges where we get outraged. I believe this was by far the best episode of the first season of DS9, and holds up as a top ten episode over the course of its run. I don't really see any issues with it whatsoever
@@LoreReloaded There are only two times I can recall where Sisko "defied" the Bajoran government. The first was when The Circle had taken over and was on its way to DS9. Sisko was following orders from Starfleet a bit too literally in making sure every piece of Federation property was removed from the station, ensuring he would be there long after The Circle arrived, buying him the time to expose the Cardassian involvement. The second was like unto the first, when Bajor signed the non-aggression pact with the Dominion and removed Starfleet from the station. There again, Sisko was following Starfleet orders, but he did eventually leave the station. So I don't believe he ever actually defied the Bajoran government. You could say he creatively interpreted certain orders, but that's about as close as it got.
Despite his divergent political views RazorFist has a really excellent review series on DS9, including this episode. I highly highly recommend it as it gives a really great contextual critique and explores its origins as an homage to a film about a Nazi war criminal from WW2
I've never heard of him and I'm curious who he is and what you mean by divergent political beliefs? And could you give a brief synopsis of what he said?
Killing Cardassians just for being Cardassians won't make hate go away. If anything, corrupt/opportunistic governments or other powerful entities could spin that one act of hate to generate hate against the Bajorans, which would of course create a vicious cycle of ever-increasing hate. And the thing about hate, is that those who hate others *always* view themselves as being right while *always* viewing those that oppose them as being wrong. And no amount of retribution is ever too much in their eyes, nor are the facts of the matter relevant.
Actually, you are a bit wrong here. The best comparison is the Nazi concentration camps, as that was clearly their inspiration for this episode. Everyone who worked at those camps was considered a party to the murders and other crimes that were committed there. If you look at how, to this day, surviving guards are still put on trial even if it cannot be proven they personally harmed anyone, you will understand. This was a Cardassian who they can prove was at their equivalent to a concentration camp. They are therefore held under suspicion of being a war criminal. This is not just a case of a "suspicious person thrown in jail". No, it was a case of they had reasonable suspicion that he might be a war criminal. They didn't know who he really was, but they knew he was at that camp, and that was reasonable suspicion enough to hold him.
Suspicious people are thrown in jail for being suspicious, happens all the damn time. This is why Trekkies shouldn't comment on real world policies. They have no fucking clue what they're talking about.
Playing devils advocate: its as if he was shot by a gun that was used at a shoot out between two gangs. Its not proof that he was a shooter but it is probable cause enough to hold him during an investigation.
"Guilt by association." I recently watched these episodes (three times over the course of a week in fact) and felt it really spoke to me. There's so much anger around right now and, moreover generalizations, that having a dialogue at this point is impossible. I truly don't believe this episode could have been made today. Think about it; it makes the argument that if someone was a filing clerk at Auschwitz, then they are just as guilty as the men who did the killings. That's an argument that I can't imagine flying today. It's just a black and white world I guess.
seltin1988 Why though? They aren’t the ones doing the killing and if they were to try to do something or say anything they’d end up being killed themselves.
@@Aeradom2000 while i understand that and vould probely just follow orders myself in a sitc like that! thats no reason or escuse to not either help or try to stop evil like that. just following orders is not good enougth in my opinion and makes you just as gulty as the one whos kills
I know we're ruminating about old episodes wishing we had something new. Therefore I invite traditional Star Trek fans to enjoy a completely free novel, just Google Star Trek Lost Destiny and enjoy!
I don't think Kira and Odo were saying that the funeral could have been faked, as in it didn't happen and they're lying about it, but rather that the person who was buried and honored at the funeral could have been someone else, and essentially faking the death of the Gul. You don't need to fake the funeral and make up news coverage and such to do that, just replicate a dead body that looks exactly like him, and bury it, publicly, with all the news coverage and such. That would be much harder for anyone to prove either way, than just someone finding footage of it happening, or finding a witness to it with no stake in it. I don't think you made that into a strawman intentionally, but you kinda did.
The Nürnberg trials after world war 2 sought to establish the personal guilt of every single accused for him to be sentenced guilty of war crimes. The rusians wanted it to be simpler and aply simpler principles like guilt through association.
@@GamingMagic3280 it's kind of a joke theory I have , that sisko was replaced in season 3 when his mirror universe counterpart "died" (and his body never found) and suddenly "our" sisko had a beard and became much more shady . I made a video about this on my channel
Nah the worse episode is the one where Kira and her old unit are being Hunted down and killed by a cardassian civilian who was badly scarred and crippled by a terrorist attack Kira and her unit committed during the occupation And the cardassian makes the point, that the bajoran resistance didn't differentiate between Cardassian civilians and cardassian soldiers/military, whereas he only targets legitimate targets, no one innocent. And Kira defends killing civilians by the fact they were occupiers therefore they got what they deserved Which is literal justification for killing unarmed and or civilians in occupied territory for just being there Which is a level of terrorism most people would never condone But the episode phrases it like it's justified and targeting civilians is justified Not that it was practical even if it was wrong But that it is justified, targeting non combatants is justified, and that's the worst episode in my opinion.
Duet was one of the best season 1 episodes, and possibly the first good Kira episode. And I will die on this hill. Re: Cardassia and Starfleet Intelligence - it must be understood, that the UFP-Cardassian Treaty was very clear. Starfleet and the Federation must actively assist the Obsidian Order in infiltrating every strata of Federation society, while Starfleet Intelligence was prohibited from ever setting foot in the DMZ or Cardassian Union. (I'm being deliberately sarcastic (and I hope humorous), but this is not far from the facts.)
Not unlike the treaty the Federation signed forbidding them from developing extremely valuable military tech in return for the Romulans' leaving them alone--a treaty the Romulans ignored on multiple occasions with little complaint from the Federation.
@@aleistergein114 Starfleet - outside of a few renegades, and a certain group of terrorists - had no interest in developing that tech anyway. It would be like the US signing a treaty not to use biological warfare. Running around invisible goes against the whole philosophy of the Federation. At least one source indicates that the Federation manipulated the Romulans into the Treaty of Algeron, in exchange for the Federation giving up something they didn't want, the Romulans agreed to a new Neutral Zone boundary that was favorable to the Federation.
@@lynngreen7978 I mean, that's more like the United States signing an agreement with the Russians not to develop *submarines.* That Starfleet didn't have any interest in that tech is emblematic of the Federation's growing arrogance and complacency--and it's telling that the first thing they did when they got slapped in the face by the Borg was develop a cloak-capable warship.
Having watched this episode recently and having some expertise on the matter, I found the episode a bit annoying. As a file clerk, he was still part of the criminal genocide conspiracy, guilty and deserved the death penalty. The hallway stabbed is actually the correct one.
Umm, no. For crying out loud, look at the damn Nuremberg trials. They didn't execute every guard and clerk in the Nazi party. And you claim to have expertise? I call bullshit. You have no expertise at all or else you'd understand that basic fact. Even most members of the Gestapo and SS weren't executed or even given jail sentences.
@@Ashannon888 Review the news from 7/23/20, just convicted another camp guard. Lack of prosecution does not mean innocence, just that they have not been caught. Maritza is guilty by his own admission. His contribution would be sufficient for a death penalty. At the very least, he should have been sent to Bajor for their equivalent of a grand jury. BTW, the medical condition alone would have been sufficient evidence to be held for a grand jury.
Instead we have Kira and Odo acting as his judge and jury. Charming when they choose innocence, would be a lot more scary if they chose firing squad. That Maritza is not sent to Bajor for Grand Jury is the primary subversion of the rule of law in this episode.
Honestly It's my belief that the Writers of DS9 could not make this episode today. They're too lost in their Trump derangement syndrome to see the same nuance they tried to portray in this episode.
Kinda weird to refer to Kira as "a terrorist" when she was a resistance fighter during a time of genocide and occupation of her own people. Kira's reaction with the kalanora patient being Cardassian is easily because the majority of Cardassians working at the mine he was allegedly in were committing massacres of the Bajoran people (save for the few working in minor positions such as the file clerk). It never occurred to her that this was just a lowly office worker.
“What you call genocide I call a days work.” That line always makes me think of M Bison’s awesome/terrible line. “The day Bison came to your village was the worst day of your life, for me it was Tuesday.”
Yes Starfleet intelligence not being able to confirm something is 100% completely and utterly believable.
I honestly believe without this episode to change Kira's direction, the episode where she's kidnapped and told she's a Cardassian would have played out EXTREMELY differently.
As it is, she's willing to accept there are good Cardassians and becomes a supporter of the Dissident movement and even forms a close bond with the one who thought he was her father. The closest backslide she has is "Darkness and the Light" but the guy DID just murder literally every friend she ever had in Bajor.
She wasn't a Cardassian. Her mother was brought to Terak Nor and eventually stayed with Gul Dukat.
@@amspracklen but she was _told she was_ in the episode. The sentence construction doesn’t imply OP forgot about the ending.
'Duet' has always been my favorite DS9 episode since it first aired.
This was the episode where I realised ds9 was going to be different from tng and a different kind of star trek.
It is very different, a much more philosophical and diverse series that doesn't follow the classic Star Trek formula.
Yeaa they droped roddenberry's anti capitalist propaganda.
@@calebgarrett214 I liked that it wasn't completely Roddenbery's vision
I was very like warm on ds9 until I got to this episode. This is by far one of my favorites.
@@charlesburrows687 A lot of season 1 could have been TNG scripts and are in fact, well, recycled TNG scripts. Even the good ones, like The Hunted I think it was where O'Brian helps Tosk the proto-Jem'Hedar escape could have easily taken place on TNG with minimal adjustments. Duet, however, was very DS9.
I first saw this episode as a kid and thought it was kind of boring, what a different 27 years makes.
omg agree. I watched this as a kid and didn't really think much of it. recently I watched 2 or 3 episodes randomly and I loved this episode so much
It was pretty boring.
@@NCC1371 We need security in the comments.
@@TheJman669 Escort him to the brig Mr. Worf.
"What you call genocide, I call a days work." Reminds me of Bison's line in the Street Fighter 1994 movie.
Of course!
Of Course!!!!!
“If only one man dies of hunger, that is a tragedy. If millions die, that’s only statistics.”
"For you, the day Bison graced your village was the most important day of your life. But for me, it was Tuesday."
Reminds me of Eichmann in Jerusalem.
My feeling that Odo was very much in character in this episode. He had been operating under Cardassian laws and regulations the Federation and Bajorian are still new to him so he not using them yet he is expecting Sisko to react the same as a Dukat would. Something you might want consider doing some research on is the Japanese war crimes tribunal's for some background on how little evidence could be used to bring charges.
Odo is very respectful to Kira in this episode, even his “I understand” when Kira is given the lead in The Maritza Case, not out of spite, because I think Odo knew what happened in the labor camps and couldn’t stop it all
Very fitting and well done episode. And incredibly valid in this current political climate. Indeed one of the best lines of the series comes from Dax. "You sound like you want him to be guilty. You know that punishing him without cause won't accomplish anything. And you know vengeance isn't enough." Also it shows that, in spite of the age old trope, victims can turn into victimizers. So it has with the Bajoran, and so it has with other groups throughout history.
A little remark on the first three words from Major Kira: In the german version she says: Nothing justifies the holocaust.
I’ve always struggled with the idea that Darheel could have been such a public figure and neither the Bajorans nor the Feds would know whether he was dead or alive after he got the royal treatment at his funeral. I overlook it for the sake of such a good story, but it still bugs me.
I get the feeling that Cardassia was like certain European powers. Every moderately decorated officer, who dies without a cloud over him, gets a big state funeral, for propaganda. Foreign powers tend to stop paying attention after the third colonel's state funeral *today*
I wonder just how to cut off Cardassia is from the rest of the quadrant. I mean even today there are countries in the real world where hard intelligence can be difficult to acquire. There was a point, and maybe it's still a point, where we don't know if the leader of North Korea is even alive or dead. With the Obsidian Order, It's not impossible to think they could keep outsiders from coming in?
@@lynngreen7978 That could explain the Federation's lack of interest, but if Darheel was so notorious on Bajor it seems unlikely they'd miss it.
@@Aeradom2000 So soon after decolonization, you would expect enough residual connections between Bajor and Cardassia for the former to keep track of developments of the latter that are of serious interest.
As for the Feds, it's more plausible, but then again, Cardassian counterintelligence isn't really that effective against Starfleet. Remember when Dukat's long lost twin was aboard the _Enterprise_ and Data let slip that he could read Cardassian transponder codes? Picard's efforts to gloss over it were quite amusing.
At any rate, at this point in the Trek timeline I think the thing that most likely limited Starfleet's intelligence gathering on Cardassia was a lack of interest. Up until "The Maquis" or so, the brass really didn't seem to make the Cardassians a high priority.
@@aperson22222 The Bajorans might know about Darheel's funeral but assume the Cardassians would be willing to fake public funerals of prominent officers they know the Bajorans are hunting for war crimes.
I feel that this episode started Kira’s character arc to become a better person and not blame all Cardassians for the occupation.
Assigning blame to everyone in a group due to the actions of a select few? How topical.
Hmm, like AR...... 🙄 😂
@@2bituser569 Augmented Reality?
Aeradom add -15 and you got it.
It is something in this episode and those going forward that at this time kira is a devoted bajoran officer with a neutral to argumentative relationship with starfleet. I find it telling that during the beginning, middle, and end of the dominion war Kira goes from bajoran officer and "freedom fighter" with a mutual hatred for cardassian due the past to bajoran officer with a distinguished record and supporter of both the federation and bajoran relations. Eventually joining starfleet.
Sorta. She'd grown quite a respect for the Federation as the rest of the crew along with Sisko became very much her closest friends. She even tried in the middle of the series, I think to even give Dukat a chance, till he clearly couldn't resist overdoin it all. An through the likes of Garak an Dukats daughter plus a few episodes like this she grew outta solid hate for the Cardassians as she realized quite a few also must've hated the occupation. I wonder if she FIRST heard such things from Dukat of all people, he CLAIMED as much but all villains CLAIM to think like he did too.
Also, NOT totally sure but think the commission was a special thing just to make the Cardassian Resistance behave and remind them they need her and her Fed friends to keep their Movement alive and to teach them what they don't know.. a whole new kinda war... Which apparently, most Cardassians suck at
Legally speaking I think there was every justification to hold him. They have evidence that he was present when war crimes were committed. Even if the man himself is not personally guilty of war-crimes he could possibly identify people he witnessed committed war-crimes or at the very least NAME some of the people he served with. You don't need that much suspicion for the police to hold you for 24 hours without charges and this episode looks like it took less then that.
that's a legal theory that wasn't even around when this episode was written. Today its acceptable in the types of courts that deal with it to consider someone who was present at the time of warcrimes to be at least possibly guilty of warcrimes. its something that is still controversial and obviously has its flaws, like how far down the line are people responsible
Actually you are not wrong. Look at how former Nazi concentration camp guards and staff are treated. Once it's proven they were at one of those camps, there is reasonable suspicion that they are a war criminal, and their guilt is assumed unless they can prove otherwise. Once they're found to have been there, they can try to mount an affirmative defense that they were there against their will or tried to subtly undermine the horrible things being done, but barring that the mere fact that they were there is enough to convict them as an accessory to murder. The person in this episode was proven to have been working at what was basically a concentration camp, in at least some capacity. That is reasonable suspicion that they are a war criminal, right there, and plenty of reason to hold them until more information can be found. That's the legal precedent they were working off of.
Could you also do an analysis on "The Collaborator" as well? Maybe even compare the themes of both episodes?
Odo jailing someone for running is incorrect, but asking why they ran is not. The question is investigatory not accusatory. You are asking to see how they respond. Do they stammer? “Well...well...well, because...” or do they answer as he does.
Such a grand episode. So well acted.
Probably the greatest episode of the show. Which is saying a lot since it has a lot of great episodes.
love this episode the acting was on point
th-cam.com/video/7y2dBhj8sOM/w-d-xo.html
Revenge is a dish best served cold. She hasn't let it cool enough.
He is, being driven to say it that its him show its him, but he went crazy of how much he klled
Dude could've been the EXCEPTION to the "Cardi" Kira at this point in the Series is used too.
Remember this same Kira, comes to really get close an protective of Gul Dukats daughter, comes to like an respect Garek and even learns to bury the hatchet with and learn to respect Damar.. MUTUALLY though I guess if Damar had survived neither woulda probably admitted that
Although you still get steps backward. In a later season, Kira declares "You're a Cardassian. I don't care if you killed Bajorans or cleaned shoes, you were ALL legitimate targets."
didn't she also get close to a cardassian big wig that they said was her dad?
@@ARC5 I'd have to rewatch those episodes but I think the arc POSSIBLY hinted that's why Dukat ALSO had such a relationship with her. Cuz he was somehow connected like that to her
ARC5 absolutely. She was kidnapped and made to think she was a cardassian agent. The whole plot was to make him betray himself. Again it showcases how things are different behind closed doors
He's the man who saved the Alpha Quadrant. He set the groundwork to win the Dominion War before anyone even knew who the Dominion WAS. It took Kira a long time, and a lot of stumbling to overcome her hatred, but he was the one who started her down that road. And if anyone EVER doubts she overcame that, she all but forgave Damar for Ziyal's death
First, I just wanted to say how much I love your videos!!! I 100% agree with you about Odo's running away = guilt is absolutely wrong and used too often by the police in the real world. Butr I disagree with you about Maritza. Remember, he created a filing system that was so efficient, he would later teach filing on Cardassia. In other words, he created a way to make it easier for the Cardassians to oppress hundreds of millions of people. But for that filing system, the Barjoran resistance might have been even more difficult to keep suppressing. The Cardassians might have been forced out of Bajor years or even dacades earlier, saving countless lives, not to mention suffering under slavery. I think he didn't understand the role he had played in the occupation of Bajor, but once he realized it, he began his plan to sacrifice himself to the Bajoran people in hopes that he could heal a portion of the harm he seemingly unintentionally caused.
That seems a bit of a stretch. So you are saying that if it wasn't for his filing system, the Bajorans could have driven them off earlier? Bear in mind that they weren't driven off but instead withdrew. Much like the US didn't lose the Vietnam war, the simply withdrew and allowed events to play out. Plus, there's not to say that someone wouldn't have come in and filled his place as a filing clerk. For all we know what he was really effective at filing was how many forks and spoons were brought in.
Ultimately a powerful episode with an important msg. I'm not sure it would have worked as well if they weren't able to get whomever played this cardassian.
Starfleet intelligence?? Doesn't colonel Flagg from MASH run that???
Great video, it brings back a lot of memories. In really miss DS9
DS9 was incredible!
Also holds up much better than TNG - real, not preachy and hasn't got that problem/issue of the week feel
It was a good way to establish Kira, before this episode we didn't get to know that much about her, but in this episode we learned more about her flaws, but also that she was capable of realizing her mistakes, act on that realisation and grow as a person. Making her act much better or worse in this episode would have defeated the purpose.
Hold up man. You said that they wanted to kill this man because he was Cardassian and at the DS9 version of Auschwitz. That's false. He was being held while they confirmed his identity, after he had lied about not being at the labor camp. If it was Gul Darhel, they would've charged and punished him for war crimes, just like Nazi leaders.
Marritza wasn't trying to take all the blame unto himself. He was trying to get caught from the beginning to have the war crimes tribunal have a public trial, that way the true crimes of the Cardassians would be known throughout the quadrant. He felt like the atrocities performed needed to be brought forth and Cardassia needed to accept their crimes and face judgement.
As for Sisko and the Federation, they only administrate the station. Any and all laws and charges are run through the Bajoran Magistrate, not the Federation.
Odo, the ever just, except when his crush is the accuser then he’s batting.
Why do people ask, "What's your opinion," when they should ask "What is your opinion on this?" I can give you my opinion on a million different topics like while loving your scene analysis series it is making me view things very differently, but that does not contribute to the conversation we are expected to be having, is it?
So I will quote Frank Herbert and also say all Spoon heads are guilty and must pay. “Governments always commit their entire populations when the demands grow heavy enough. By their passive acceptance, these populations become accessories to whatever is done in their name.” ― Frank Herbert
There was a video up that broke down this episode and compared it to Arthur Hiller's The Man in the Glass Booth with clips from both. But it can no longer be found, I am assuming it was taking down for copyright issues for using clips and comparing both. But the premise, plot, and even lines spoken are really close to Arthur Hiller's The Man in the Glass Booth.
DS9 isn't the federation and Odo doesn't dig on 'due process'.
Conscience of the King
It's also a very common mentality today, people are unable and unwilling to let go of pre-conceived notions and prejudice.
It would be highly unrealistic for her entire world view to be changed instantly after one day, that’s just not how people work, especially when a belief is ingrained so deeply.
Well if the Event has enough impact on you why not? There are a lot of people who change their while life because they had a near death experience. Plus the entire thing could have lasted a couple of days and she did get a lot to think about.
this is a very interesting thing you bring up at the begining that even the federation seems to agree with that the bajorons can do no wrong and the cardasians can do no right. sadly this seems to be a mentalitly that i feel like the federation seems to have itself.(so bajor would actually fit perfectly in the federation)
Well, in part that comes from Cardassians being very antagonistic. It's not like that's a great way to engender or build trust.
I always wonder when they give somebody a drink in a glass that look like a Whisky glass, if it supposed to be alcohol?
I think you are confusing being guilty/innocent with having enough to warrant an arrest.
I think Kira and odo did that a majority of the episode
@@LoreReloaded Considering the person they arrest guilty? yes probably, that's basically what anyone who arrest someone think like.
That doesn't mean the Cardassian was arrested without probable cause. Their job is to arrest people if they have probable cause, and then let a court decide of their innocence or guilt. Kira wanted him to face the equivalent of Nuremberg, not carry the execution herself the moment she got the confession.
@@leGUIGUI But probably cause of what? All they had at most was that the guy was at the labor camp at the time of the accident. I don't think that's a crime.
@@Aeradom2000 That you were part of the Cardassian occupation in a place where war crime were committed on a daily basis is enough to warrant an investigation.
It's basically the same as being caught on camera right next to a crime scene close to the time at which it happened and also being know for being acquaintance with people who really hated the victim.
@@leGUIGUI Investigation certainly, but not arrest. I mean let's give another analogy, this would be like saying any on the same floor of the hotel where a murder took place, or hell whole hotel is warranting fo being arrested, and not simply interviewed. If this is Federation or even Western law, while they will call in you for an interview, you will no be detained. For that, there has to be an actual crime that you are being held in regards to. Besides, it's not exactly like he's a flight risk on a space station.
she thought he was guilty . once she found out he's innocent she defended him but a random bajoran killed him despite knowing he's innocent , just because he's a cardassian
Even when presented with evidence she wanted to out right deny it for most of it. She wanted him to be guilty .. but once she had to accept it.. she did and I think it changed her. I agree
a good episode, one of the better ones. it shows the difference between human/western justice and bajoran justice. it also shows the advantages of each. in the human form of justice you would never really know definitively if he was the butcher or not as he would have never been held for being such. the investigation could have gone forward, but they wouldn't have had him in order to get him to admit that he wasn't the butcher. on the one hand you get the truth from bajoran justice, on the other you don't impair one's rights in human justice. the downsides other than the infringement of one's rights with bajoran justice is that you paint a target on an innocent's back for those that don't care about justice. if you care about truth more than the innocent then bajoran justice is for you, if instead you favor the rights of the innocent then human justice is the right one for you.
Regarding the funeral in Cardassia..... What can be confirmed exactly? They could confirm that a funeral was officially held for person A, and the Cardassian authorities told their public it was person A but that in no way guarantees it was person A, so that whole point is relatively moot.
I was a teenage when this episode first came out and thought it was interesting, showing 2 sides of a coin and how each of them thought of what they did. When it was revealed that the person was not who he claimed to be I thought he was trying to punish the cardassians. Looking at is as an adult I see a small man pretending to be someone he was not in a vein hope that he would some how hurt his people. All it would have really done was made the divide even worse, if he succeeded. The cardassians would say that this was not the man he claims to be and this is just a show trial and the bajorns not believing anything they say. If he truly wanted to get his people to change then he should have found a way to make it happen on his own planet. As I stated in the last video, true he is only one person but every movement, I repeat every movement begins with 1 person. In the end he seemed to realized like Kira that this was not going to do what he hoped. perhaps had he not been murdered he would have tried a different tactic, but we will never know.
I was wondering what yourcthiughts ate about the Cardassiian who was hunting and killing Kira and her friends from her resistance cell. Sjr still doesn't consider him an innocent vuctim of the bomb she planted to kill a Cardassiian official. She even says that his claims of being innocent as just an excuse.
So like Poland and Czechoslovakia dealing with Germans. There were many such cases and thousands of real Kiras, as far as I know and worse for both sides.
I am sorry, I was born in the times (holidays of st. Wenceslas 1945)there and for me it's more like a part of living present... I wish not to bother with that forgotten past, but I often felt like one of Cardassians/Bajoran children. 😓
3:15 - IRL? USA? The law allows for a suspect to be held for an extended period on any charge before arraignment, and then detention pre-trial... all BEFORE conviction. This episode spans the passing of a day, and he's accused of being a leader involved in the genocide of Bajorans. Even n the USA, we'd hold someone like that for their own protection, as in the public they would become a target (as this man later becomes); extreme circumstances of the case can allow for more intensive protocols regarding one's ability to exercise one's rights. There are always exceptions in our constitution: the right to bear arms (in an organized and official militia force), the freedom of speech (unless threatening, calling to arms, exposing state secrets, needlessly causing fear and hysteria, forming violent mobs to express dissatisfaction, etc)...Every law ad even constitutional amendment has written-in exceptions to the base understanding.
The NAZIs were rounded up and held whether officially charged or not, simply on accusation in some case (mainly clerks and low grade officers, such as Lieutenants in less immediate capacities involving the Holocaust)...They were all later** charged, tried, and sentenced. In some case, charges were added or decided upon the release of the facts, as much of what had occurred would take years to uncover, and they had the individuals there already.
Was it wrong to uphold that strategy given the exigent circumstances of the crimes alleged and situation surrounding them?
Given that this plot of Cardassian vs Bajoran is an analog to the Holocaust, is it truly beyond anyone to see holding the man as a precaution?
1. The man's alleged status makes him a public target, so detention = protection until more can be determined. This is done today.
2. The man's allegations involve genocide; a matter so grave and sensitive that no chance can be justified, even at the expense of temporary freedom. Certain crimes are just too damn extreme to put the individual first. Suck it up.
Also, a Cardassian, proclaiming to be a war criminal (whether he was one or not) walks the promenade of a people who took it from his own, and hate him on an almost inherent basis for what was done to them by people like him...What should he expect? A parade? That he was arrested rather than cycled between beatings and healings until he died of some other cause is a courtesy beyond any I would expect given the circumstances. If he wasn't intending to get caught for the plot of the episode, I'd say he was both stupid and lucky beyond what should be physically possible.
This episode really, really, gets to me. I served in the Air Force during OIF and much like Miritza I was in a non-combat role serving a war machine as a cog not a grinder and yet never the less knew all too well that lives of so many people from my fellow servicemen, enemy combatants, and Iraqi were being ended and torn on mass to serve absolutely no greater end whatsoever. I knew the Bush administration was lying to world about Saddam having WMDs, President Clinton had seen to it that even the possibility of Saddam having the facilities to produce and store such weapons was completely destroyed in that whole supposed "wag the dog" incident. Cheney and Rumsfled had simply convinced themselves and the President that since at the time a definitive victory on Al Quida in Afghanistan was not going to be secured before the 2004 election that they secure such a definitive victory in Iraq while they scaring Iran and North Korea from pursuing WMDs if the made an example of the Saddam regime and that technology had magically changed the logistics of occupation and nation building as such that Iraq could be made into a stable nation and ally without the manpower the brass knew damn would require a draft. Consequentially I knew how OIF would end before it began: that the OIF would leave Iraq an unstable mess that the US would ultimately walk away from for all that war cost and is costing we will have less than nothing to show for it.
Like Miritza I could see the horror happening and was a party to it though not an active participant in it and there was nothing I could do about it save land myself a dishonorable discharge and jail time in Fort Leavenworth for breaking the oath I to follow the lawful orders of the POTUS, the US Congress, and the Officers they appointed even though President W Bush's Administration had broken their oaths to the US Constitution, the Nation, and its people. So instead of maytring my future for doomed cause that the vast majority of people can't even be be bothered to ponder I just focused on doing my job to support my fellow serviceman who had likewise been morally compromised by leaders that betrayed their oath and their duty. Being morally compromised like that haunts me still and it always will but at least Miritza I won't forget what happened or make excuses for it. I know Rumsfled and Cheney will not be met with the justice they deserve in life but I will do all that I can to see that they are reviled in memory for all time for the lying arrogant monsters they are and I will personally piss on their graves.
Assuming that the guy was guilty just because he was in the camp isn't illogical. I mean what Cardassians would even be in the camp besides the guards and administration? I mean even visitors to such a camp wouldn't even be innocent.
By the way when Germans put concentration camp guards on trial they don't accusse them or murder because that's incredibly difficult to prove but of participation on mass murder. Just by working in the camp the person is gulty.
I mean… if this was a German man and he had a disease which could have only been contracted at Auschiwtz … how should / would we treat him.
Kira knows least about the Bajorans, by far, if you ask me.
There wasn't much the Federation could have done as Deep Space 9 was a Bajoran station operated by Starfleet at the invitation of the Provisional Government. What the Bajoran Provisional Government knew at the time was a Cardassian with a very rare disease that could have only been contracted at this particular labor camp during a very particular incident was on their station. While we can say it isn't enough evidence to arrest him for, to hold him for suspicion isn't only justifiable in the context of the episode, it's common today to bring someone in and hold them for questioning. It's indefinitely holding someone without formal charges where we get outraged. I believe this was by far the best episode of the first season of DS9, and holds up as a top ten episode over the course of its run. I don't really see any issues with it whatsoever
Sisko had pretty much control to do as he pleased. We see him defy the provisional government quite a bit
@@LoreReloaded There are only two times I can recall where Sisko "defied" the Bajoran government.
The first was when The Circle had taken over and was on its way to DS9. Sisko was following orders from Starfleet a bit too literally in making sure every piece of Federation property was removed from the station, ensuring he would be there long after The Circle arrived, buying him the time to expose the Cardassian involvement.
The second was like unto the first, when Bajor signed the non-aggression pact with the Dominion and removed Starfleet from the station. There again, Sisko was following Starfleet orders, but he did eventually leave the station.
So I don't believe he ever actually defied the Bajoran government. You could say he creatively interpreted certain orders, but that's about as close as it got.
Despite his divergent political views RazorFist has a really excellent review series on DS9, including this episode. I highly highly recommend it as it gives a really great contextual critique and explores its origins as an homage to a film about a Nazi war criminal from WW2
I love Depths of DS9!
I've never heard of him and I'm curious who he is and what you mean by divergent political beliefs? And could you give a brief synopsis of what he said?
@@Aeradom2000 don't take other people's word, go check out his channel(The Rageaholic) and make up your own mind
Logic Plague oh that’s the guy you were talking about, I’m familiar with him.
@@Aeradom2000 He comes across as a Libertarian who dresses like a metal head satanist.
Killing Cardassians just for being Cardassians won't make hate go away. If anything, corrupt/opportunistic governments or other powerful entities could spin that one act of hate to generate hate against the Bajorans, which would of course create a vicious cycle of ever-increasing hate. And the thing about hate, is that those who hate others *always* view themselves as being right while *always* viewing those that oppose them as being wrong. And no amount of retribution is ever too much in their eyes, nor are the facts of the matter relevant.
Actually, you are a bit wrong here. The best comparison is the Nazi concentration camps, as that was clearly their inspiration for this episode. Everyone who worked at those camps was considered a party to the murders and other crimes that were committed there. If you look at how, to this day, surviving guards are still put on trial even if it cannot be proven they personally harmed anyone, you will understand. This was a Cardassian who they can prove was at their equivalent to a concentration camp. They are therefore held under suspicion of being a war criminal. This is not just a case of a "suspicious person thrown in jail". No, it was a case of they had reasonable suspicion that he might be a war criminal. They didn't know who he really was, but they knew he was at that camp, and that was reasonable suspicion enough to hold him.
the best star tark ever made
walking while being cardassian
Suspicious people are thrown in jail for being suspicious, happens all the damn time. This is why Trekkies shouldn't comment on real world policies. They have no fucking clue what they're talking about.
Playing devils advocate: its as if he was shot by a gun that was used at a shoot out between two gangs. Its not proof that he was a shooter but it is probable cause enough to hold him during an investigation.
"Guilt by association." I recently watched these episodes (three times over the course of a week in fact) and felt it really spoke to me. There's so much anger around right now and, moreover generalizations, that having a dialogue at this point is impossible. I truly don't believe this episode could have been made today. Think about it; it makes the argument that if someone was a filing clerk at Auschwitz, then they are just as guilty as the men who did the killings. That's an argument that I can't imagine flying today. It's just a black and white world I guess.
well we do or did punish clerks at one of the deathcamps if i remember and yes they are as guilty as those with the guns at camps like that
seltin1988 Why though? They aren’t the ones doing the killing and if they were to try to do something or say anything they’d end up being killed themselves.
@@Aeradom2000 while i understand that and vould probely just follow orders myself in a sitc like that! thats no reason or escuse to not either help or try to stop evil like that. just following orders is not good enougth in my opinion and makes you just as gulty as the one whos kills
I know we're ruminating about old episodes wishing we had something new. Therefore I invite traditional Star Trek fans to enjoy a completely free novel, just Google Star Trek Lost Destiny and enjoy!
I don't think Kira and Odo were saying that the funeral could have been faked, as in it didn't happen and they're lying about it, but rather that the person who was buried and honored at the funeral could have been someone else, and essentially faking the death of the Gul. You don't need to fake the funeral and make up news coverage and such to do that, just replicate a dead body that looks exactly like him, and bury it, publicly, with all the news coverage and such. That would be much harder for anyone to prove either way, than just someone finding footage of it happening, or finding a witness to it with no stake in it.
I don't think you made that into a strawman intentionally, but you kinda did.
The dialogue never seemed to indicate that for me. They made it sound like it was all fake.. it’s possible I suppose
Umm...
Yeah,....
I'm ain't jesus.....
Yo, I thought this was a video from 2 years ago. (This is in response to current Trek.)
The Nürnberg trials after world war 2 sought to establish the personal guilt of every single accused for him to be sentenced guilty of war crimes. The rusians wanted it to be simpler and aply simpler principles like guilt through association.
I like how sisko has painted on hair in this
Very funny 😂
this was before he was replaced by his mirror universe counterpart in season 3
@@NitpickingNerd Oh sorry my mistake i genuinely thought that was a joke. I need to rewatch DS9 🖖
@@GamingMagic3280 it's kind of a joke theory I have , that sisko was replaced in season 3 when his mirror universe counterpart "died" (and his body never found) and suddenly "our" sisko had a beard and became much more shady . I made a video about this on my channel
@@NitpickingNerd I didn't know you had a channel, i've subscribed 🖖
Nah the worse episode is the one where Kira and her old unit are being Hunted down and killed by a cardassian civilian who was badly scarred and crippled by a terrorist attack Kira and her unit committed during the occupation
And the cardassian makes the point, that the bajoran resistance didn't differentiate between Cardassian civilians and cardassian soldiers/military, whereas he only targets legitimate targets, no one innocent.
And Kira defends killing civilians by the fact they were occupiers therefore they got what they deserved
Which is literal justification for killing unarmed and or civilians in occupied territory for just being there
Which is a level of terrorism most people would never condone
But the episode phrases it like it's justified and targeting civilians is justified
Not that it was practical even if it was wrong
But that it is justified, targeting non combatants is justified, and that's the worst episode in my opinion.
Duet was one of the best season 1 episodes, and possibly the first good Kira episode. And I will die on this hill.
Re: Cardassia and Starfleet Intelligence - it must be understood, that the UFP-Cardassian Treaty was very clear. Starfleet and the Federation must actively assist the Obsidian Order in infiltrating every strata of Federation society, while Starfleet Intelligence was prohibited from ever setting foot in the DMZ or Cardassian Union. (I'm being deliberately sarcastic (and I hope humorous), but this is not far from the facts.)
Not unlike the treaty the Federation signed forbidding them from developing extremely valuable military tech in return for the Romulans' leaving them alone--a treaty the Romulans ignored on multiple occasions with little complaint from the Federation.
@@aleistergein114 Starfleet - outside of a few renegades, and a certain group of terrorists - had no interest in developing that tech anyway.
It would be like the US signing a treaty not to use biological warfare. Running around invisible goes against the whole philosophy of the Federation.
At least one source indicates that the Federation manipulated the Romulans into the Treaty of Algeron, in exchange for the Federation giving up something they didn't want, the Romulans agreed to a new Neutral Zone boundary that was favorable to the Federation.
@@lynngreen7978 I mean, that's more like the United States signing an agreement with the Russians not to develop *submarines.* That Starfleet didn't have any interest in that tech is emblematic of the Federation's growing arrogance and complacency--and it's telling that the first thing they did when they got slapped in the face by the Borg was develop a cloak-capable warship.
It can nuremburg had several like that.
The Occupation never happened.
#wherestheevidence
Irony
The allegory of this to current race relations in the US is Not lost on me.
Had to watch this vid with subtitles damm this guys voice is annoying.
I very much dislike DS9. Still better than anything from the kurtzman era.
Having watched this episode recently and having some expertise on the matter, I found the episode a bit annoying. As a file clerk, he was still part of the criminal genocide conspiracy, guilty and deserved the death penalty. The hallway stabbed is actually the correct one.
Umm, no. For crying out loud, look at the damn Nuremberg trials. They didn't execute every guard and clerk in the Nazi party. And you claim to have expertise? I call bullshit. You have no expertise at all or else you'd understand that basic fact. Even most members of the Gestapo and SS weren't executed or even given jail sentences.
@@Ashannon888 Review the news from 7/23/20, just convicted another camp guard. Lack of prosecution does not mean innocence, just that they have not been caught. Maritza is guilty by his own admission. His contribution would be sufficient for a death penalty. At the very least, he should have been sent to Bajor for their equivalent of a grand jury. BTW, the medical condition alone would have been sufficient evidence to be held for a grand jury.
Instead we have Kira and Odo acting as his judge and jury. Charming when they choose innocence, would be a lot more scary if they chose firing squad. That Maritza is not sent to Bajor for Grand Jury is the primary subversion of the rule of law in this episode.
Honestly It's my belief that the Writers of DS9 could not make this episode today. They're too lost in their Trump derangement syndrome to see the same nuance they tried to portray in this episode.
He did nothing wrong
First!
Kinda weird to refer to Kira as "a terrorist" when she was a resistance fighter during a time of genocide and occupation of her own people.
Kira's reaction with the kalanora patient being Cardassian is easily because the majority of Cardassians working at the mine he was allegedly in were committing massacres of the Bajoran people (save for the few working in minor positions such as the file clerk). It never occurred to her that this was just a lowly office worker.
When one thinks about it, this episode is more relevant now than it was then.......
Agreed.