Passing the Kobayashi-Maru Test
ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 ต.ค. 2019
- "Clash Defiant" Kevin MacLeod (incompetech.com)
Licensed under Creative Commons: By Attribution 3.0 License
creativecommons.org/licenses/b...
Music from bensound.com, purple-planet.com and freesfx.co.uk
Star Trek Online developed by Cryptic Studios and Perfect World.
Star Trek, Star Trek Enterprise/Voyager/Deep Space Nine/Discovery/Picard and The Next Generation are all owned and distributed by CBS.
Star Trek Films are owned and distributed by Paramount Pictures
This Video is for critical purposes with commentary. - เกม
Personally, I really like how Montgomery Scott beat the test. He directly engaged the enemy forces, coming up with numerous ingenious engineering solutions on the fly to keep his ship going, causing the computer to up the stakes each time. He managed to keep this up for hours before the examiners shut it down, determining that the only way the computer could potentially beat him was to keep going for several days until Scotty collapsed from exhaustion. Scotty then claimed he could have definitively beaten the test if he had an actual engineering room to work with.
Scotty was ready as soon as the War Birds de cloaked he beamed torpedo's into their engine rooms, then beamed off the survivors and left, is what I heard. I thought he won? Perhaps starting a war is still a loss.
All hail Scotty! The only man who ever defeated a hostile alien through a drinking contest, and the only sentient being who has ever mixed scotch with liquified Klingon nerve gas...just to see what it was like.
@@dcriket9 Not quite. He beamed torpedos to key points in the interlocking shield matrix the birds of prey were using, then beamed containers of antimatter onto the ships and beamed the containers back.
He was criticised for using a tactic that only worked in theory, not practice. The training officer accused him of not knowing that it wouldn't work - only for Scotty to point out the name on the research paper that highlighted why it wouldn't work in practice. One Montgomery Scott.
Where can i see this?
Dex Nocturna it’s in a novel. I can’t remember which one off hand.
How to win: Negotiate with the enemy and quote appropriate Rules of Acquisition to ensure a fair and honest deal for all parties concerned. When the program crashes, job done.
How much profit did Nog do in that simulation?
@@s0ulshot Some say he failed, others say he won that day, still some even say he pocketed 15 Strips of Gold Pressed Latnum for his troubles.
I accept this as Cannon until they show otherwise, which they conveniently no longer can. Therefore, Nog broke the Maru. Win or not, it's still impressive.
Alexander Holscher what u mean they no longer can?
@@211212112 the only way they can prove that Nog didn't break the Kobayashi Maru is if they have a scene with him taking it and not breaking it. As Aron Eisenberg is no longer with us, may he rest in peace, they cannot do that. Therefore they cannot prove to me that Nog didn't break the Kobayashi Maru.
Actual trek: Adaptable test with many variables
Star trek online: destroy 50 enemy ships per minute
Only 50? Those are rookie numbers...
I agree, its stupid
fucking fun tho
@@hyperion6902 not reallyq
I played it years ago. I really liked it.
Nog's method for beating the test is my favorite, engaging the enemy in negotiations then bogging them down in so much legal rhetoric that the simulation computer crashes is by far the most original strategy used.
I also very star fleet of considering they prefer to be diplomatic than go in guns blazing.
@@spark300cI like nog way but nog could do both ,
taking to them and then shoot.
That was my first instinct in how to deal with this. Get them on the phone with me and I can probably fix this.
Failing that, if they want to be bastards, I'll go with the "blow up the Kobayashi reactor to even the playing field, salt the earth" option.
Friendly diplomacy is compulsory, penalty for failing to comply is death.
@@CHURCHISAWESUM I will try to save people 1st. If it fails I would do cowboy diplomacy .
Love it!
"Welcome to Klingon Space...now prepare to die! ..Wait, Captain Kirk?! THE Captain Kirk? OMG I'm your biggest fan!"
Apparently Captain Klaa didn't get that message. He figured that if he could defeat or kill Kirk that he would be considered the greatest warrior in the galaxy.
@@charlesn898 That makes sense so far. Alternatively if he was defeated, he would be declared a fool and his family dishonored. To be fair, that doesn't sound nice
Klingon captain: curse him he is a wizard.
Linkara : wait so Kirk is gandolf the gray to the klingons.
Would it be better to hear, "Your ship has trespassed on Klingon Space, prepare to die, Wait, is that James Tiberius Kirk? Oh never mind, Welcome back Kirk, it took your family a long time to get back to the Empire, your house has been quite missed, you must be malnourished eating that junk those humans eat, beam aboard, we will give you a proper Klingon meal? Why am I being so cordial after my initial threat? It's quite simple, I am just welcoming a fellow Klingon back home, your family did tell you that you are not human, that you are from a proud Klingon heritage? They didn't! Oh what a shame, we have much to discuss."
@@charlesn898 I mean that makes him a fan of Kirk. If he didn't respect his record as an opponent he wouldn't think that so...
You forgot the canon fight when Scotty took the test. He defeated the Klingons and when more showed up he took them out too. He then tried to fly to the Klingon home world, but Star fleet shut down the simulation before he could do that.
Absolute mad lad.
@@marcosbravo9645 so...scotty went full inquisitor on these xenos scum
damn that's incredible, where was it mentioned?
Revan Ruler FOR THE EMPEROR
@@rigen97 I remember this, I think it was in a book. Scotty figured out that the program used "known knowledge" about the klingons. If I remember right Scotty in a research paper postulated that Klingons had a tendency to merge their shields to make them "stronger" and that if you fired a photon torpedo at a very specific spot where the shields merged it would overload the power systems of the Klingons ships. The computer using "known knowledge" added this to the simulation. :) I'm happy that somebody actually remembers how amazing Scotty was.
"Screw it, it's a test and I wanna say 'ramming speed' once in my career"
"I JUST WANTED TO BE A BOTANIST!"
We all wanna quote kales “today is a good day to die”
@@geokendall Kirt, I grant you wish!!
Honestly...I'd do that at least once just for the hell of it.
I can imagine the Academy Board deciding to heavily monitor/screen pre-test applications once cadets get it in their heads that they could just use the test as an excuse to let loose and have chaotic fun. xD
Nog: "I offer you 450 bars of gold pressed latinum in exchange for free passage in your territory"
*Kobayashi Maru.exe has stopped working*
even in the 24th century money talks and bulls*** walks
Nog actually managed to save the Maru??? He's my hero.
That about him trying to haggle made me laugh...
Haggling is the perfect way to frack an Artificial intelligence!
Especially against a very smart Ferenghi!
There is a huge amount of 'emotional intelligence' involved in haggling, especially cross-culturally.
How could the A.I. keep up being a Klingon Commander, or whatever, while trying to strike a bargain with a Ferenghi?
In the real world, eh? In a simulation, who knows?
The dang test is flawed, but fun.
It's an amusing idea (although I find it hard to believe he'd be the first to try negociations though he was probaly the best to try) certainely but it implies that the simulated klingons accepted to even talk to him in the first place rather than jamig and shooting first, something that is far from garanteed as wesee from the depictionin wrath of khan, sohe kind of lucked out there.
Well, the program parameters may had been updated to fit that time's OpFor psychology, ex. The Klingons in Kirk's time think differently from the Klingons in Nog's time. I remember an episode or two of the TNG about the Klingons and how they've changed.
according to Memory-Beta, the enemy in Nog's simualtion were Cardassians. which probably worked in Nog's favor, since he knew enough about cardassians from his time on the station that he'd know that haggling could work in an actual encounter.
But I would not want him for my captain.
I had a character in a ST;TNG rpg. His“solution” was to close in tight on the KM and announce the timed self destruction of his ship. Without any opponent to conquer or prize to win and respecting honorable suicide, the Klingons withdrew and let the Federation have the freighter.
Starfleet Academy disallowed the win saying the Captain’s wanton destruction of his own ship was ”unconscionable”. His reply was Yeah, but it worked.”
well it didnt really work.....he ended up destroying his ship and the ship he was supposed to save.....it's just that the klingons had nothing to do with it....
@@sabin97 except he didnt. He said he would but the klingons withdrew before he did. Again a cultural exploit.
@@Privatepain1234 Unlikely the Klingons would leave the area. They'd stand back, so to speak, and make sure it actually explodes.
@@irrelevantFJS I find that doubtful. Otherwise he would've lost or ended up in a stalemate. The kobayashi maru scenario was programmed to always win. Scotty vs the program goes to show it could keep coming up with situations that continued the no win outcome. Admittedly nog did break it because it was the first time the program had encountered a ferengi. This situation played to the Klingon sense of honorable death. They would have had no reason to disbelieve him.
To secure the win, announce the destruction of your ship, repair the warp drive of the Maru, stealthily transfer your flag and crew, and GTFO on the freighter.
You lost a powerful ship, but preserved the lives of all hands and a treaty. Assuming the computer wouldn't adapt by having the enemy forces detect your crew transfer.
Calhoun: "Not a hostage rescue if there are no hostages"
So true! I sure wish this character was Trek Canon! He is absolutely awesome in the New Frontiers books by Peter David! (14 June 2021)
@@susanesquer1520 Indeed, I love the first few New Frontiers books and characters (well, most of them) very much!!! But in fairness, Calhoun's solution featured in the non-canon STAR TREKKER manga book. published decades ago. The then Lieutenant Aya Nakajima fired on the Kobayashi Maru, destroying it and two enemy Klingon vessels and crippling the third. She later told Admiral Kirk that she thus gave them an honourable death, her only real option in this case... The whole episode is brilliantly written, by the way!
My own solution would be to broadcast the situation on all frequencies, adding that I intend to send two shuttlecraft crewed with volunteers to effect emergency rescue and repair on what appears to be a stricken vessel sending out a distress signal, and citing provisions for so doing in the relevant treaty or accepted space law or lore . My own vessel will remain at the boundary, and will only cross it if absolutely necessary, or if my inoffensive shuttlecraft are in any way impeded or attacked... Firing on an unarmed shuttle attempting a rescue is a whole 'nother matter than firing on a fully armed ship, which will witness and report on any such hostilities...
@@dis4815 I think this is an EXCELLENT approach!! Good on you for your original thinking!
@@dropkickmurphy4114 Thank you, my Lady... I aim to succeed...
The Russian method of hostage situation handling
Engage in negotiation with the opposition, and accuse the ships involved of being holographic decoys intended to create a casus belli for declaring war on the Federation. With the knowledge that the test is a simulation, force the computer to prove that the opposing ships and their captains are real. In essence, challenge the Kobayashi-Maru Test to the Voight-Kampff Test.
What the fuck... :O
@@dgmt8789 ya wtf
XD XD XD
@@Drakesonone what, the ferengi?
power move: let the computer do the "i am not a robot" test
i mean that's basically what you proposed, right?
madlad
i love it
_"sv_cheats 1" - Cadet James T. Kirk (c. 2250)_
You forgot godmode 1, and impulse 255
tgm
Also don’t forget about ‘noclip’. And point click and ‘kill’
Are you implying that in the year 2250, the Kobayashi Maru test was coded in Source Gold? Are we going to have Lieutenant Headcrab?
HESOYAM
Scotty also cheated. He exploited a suspected vulnerability in the Klingon's shilds to take them down in clusters, and took out *21* Klingon vessels in the simulation. Since he knew that the vulnerability had been tested and did not work in the real world, the admiral head of engineering at the Academy called him on it and was going to tear him a new one. Sotty had figured the computer was not smart enough to have read the refutation of the vulnerability, which Scotty had, personally, published in his thesis.
A theoretical one that the computer accepted cuz in theory it should work, but practically it wouldn't.
Sorta funny when the Simulation fails it just due to the fact it IS a simulation.
@@kinagrill It's much funnier when the person ranting about how it doesn't work doesn't realize they're quoting your own article about how it doesn't work. I've only had that happen a few times, but it's well worth the work of publishing the bug report.
@@pullybungieharder Except that it only "work" in the sense that Scotty want to be an engineer, which is how the story was framed. Provided that Scotty was a legit officer, the question is still at hand: He cheated.
I still love he has a plan to deal with the 15 he was up against when they cut the program.
Can imagine how shook those Romulans would have been after Mackenzie blasted his own people?
or they would starting to worry
don't care if he was an evil char he was right
I remember reading the novel in which Captain Calhoun looked placidly at the viewscreen and said, "Destroy the ship." Commander Shelby (yeah, that Cmdr. Shelby from "Best of Both Worlds") pitched a fit, thinking McKenzie had gone off the rails, but he did indeed justify his decision by saying he'd just saved 381 souls from being tortured to death by the enemy. Good story by Peter David, as was the entire New Frontier series he penned.
Saved them from torture and sone would have given up federation secrets as well before dying. Romulans have ways to trick u into talking if torture doesnt work.
As a fighter pilot you go through a similar test. The instructors keep adding problems in the flight simulator until no one can possibly handle all of them. They don't tell you that though. They are giving you more balls than you can juggle, not to see if you can juggle them, but to see which balls you choose to drop. So there's no way to "pass the test" ie. "save the aircraft" but you don't know that. The concept is basically the same, it's a test of your thinking and decision making under extreme pressure.
Same with Air Traffic Control.
:)
They did this to us in the Submarine Tactical simulator, the conditions getting worse and worse until you fail, the answer having been go deep and retreat. Many officers would make decisions that dropped the ball on stealth or position or mission just to keep going. Was always harrowing since they never told you what day they'd do it or if they'd spring it on you at all.
@@presentlyinthepast2148 That is a task saturation task. The KM is a spatial/strategic test where there is no training beforehand.
same with a pilot
There was a truck sim at a convention for trucks one time and it was a lot like that too with the guy controlling the sim would do everything he could to make you crash he through in cars making bad lane changes heavy storms and even heavy fog until it got to the point where he just put in a wall of cars to make it so I couldn’t get pass but I came to a complete and safe stop no brake slamming so even the the sim was over he never did make me crash
I would love to see Grand Admiral Thrawn tackle the Kobayashi-Maru test.
A lot of people likely share that sentiment.
He'd probably just blow the ship up, surmising it to be a trap lain by the enemy forces and have the incident noted in ship's logs.
Thrawn would have done something like this:
1. Hail Starfleet Command and inform them of the situation.
2. Order all the shuttles readied for launch. Power would be diverted away from nonessential systems (such as life support) and towards the weapons and shields.
3. The shuttles and the ship advance as one across the border at best possible speed, with the shuttles acting as a screen for the ship.
4. The ship lowers shields and begins the process of beaming over everyone on board the Kobayashi Maru.
5. Enemy ships decloak, and the shuttles break off to harass the larger vessels, drawing away from the Kobayashi Maru. They do essentially what the ISS Defiant does in the Mirror Universe against the Regency One; close with the vessels and stay close to the hulls, using their greater maneuverability to their advantage.
6. Thrawn manages to rescue everyone, and immediately warps out of the engagement zone, having plotted a course before going across. The shuttles self-destruct, sacrificing the one or two aboard apiece for the hundreds of lives aboard the larger vessels.
Warp in from 5 different angles to see which enemies appear then nuke the Kobayashi Maru and all enemy vessels in the process. The benefits will outweigh the losses.
Maybe hail the Kobayashi Maru and berate them on violating the border until either the crew accept their death as necessary or the enemy gives up on trying to lure him in, depending on the nature of the Maru
Yes!!!!! Man, i would love to see how Grand Admiral Thrawn tackle the Kobayashi-Maru test.
"How would you beat the simulation?"
Me, standing trial at the academy: "Sirs, I did not in any way shape or form modify the Kobayashi Maru test. I exploited a glitch in the system. After painstaking analysis, I found a flaw in the program itself, and worked to use it to my advantage.
Normally the system wouldn't allow me to send a message to Starbase 918 if it is not in the system I designated. But by designating a specific system that's close enough in code to the actual system it's in, I was able to fool the test into thinking that the Starbase was in a Star system it wasn't actually in.
This allowed me to write a code using a sequence of four seemingly random and unrelated words. I told my comms officer to say those words in a message to Starbase 918, and then to mute our comms array while keeping the channel open. This prevented the buffer that I had written the code in from resetting, and with the comms muted, no additional unnecessary code was written.
When my ship crossed the Dominion Neutral Zone, the program went to read the AI for Vorta negotiation subroutines. But before it read the code it was supposed to read, it first read the code I had my comms officer input into the buffer. This caused the program to crash and reboot. When it did, the Dominion ships were still there, but the program failed to properly load the crew. As a result, my ship went up against three derilect Dominion bugships which presented no threat. I didn't need to engage them. So long as I didn't destroy any of the vessels, the program wouldn't need to load in more ships for me to fight. I just simply proceeded to rescue the crew of the Kobayashi Maru."
"I worked out all this on multiple runs of a copy of the test from 5 years ago on datapads in the barracks. Honestly I'm as surprised as you are that it worked."
I hit ctrl+alt+delete and selected Task Manager, and closed "KobayashiMaru.exe". Simulation end, no casualties.
Is that a reference to sth or did you write that yourself?
@@sehfisch2350 I wrote it myself. After watching a few videos on how glitches work.
@@Roosauec awesome work
Here's a thought for the older version: Learn Klingon.
Why? Just open a channel and begin talking in Klingon to the other ships and tell them you are a mighty warrior who captured a Federation starship in glorious battle and are on your way to present your prize to the Emperor. With your own shields down, as your are supposedly a friendly ship, evacuate the crew of the Maru quickly then tuck tail and run once you have everyone, maybe make a parting shot to destroy the Maru so she can't be used to lure unsuspecting ships to their doom.
They said (in some scenarios) that the Klingons were blocking comms.
Then you've outright lied to the klingons and caused a very bad diplomatic issue.
@@joshc1981 Better to be judged by 12 than to be carried by 6. Diplomats whining are better than warriors fighting.
Just say that you know the Emperor personally and that he'd be very mad if he heard about this.
Or say it's a matter of honor, they might be impressed enough to let you pass
@@EpochUnlocked diplomatic conflict can send many more warriors to their death though…
Me: "In no particular order, RAMMING SPEED! FIRE EVERYTHING! And broadcast all known insults across all frequencies in all languages."
Whoever is acting as my First Officer during the simulation: "Do you really think this will work?"
Me: "I can safely say that no Starfleet Officer has *ever* tried this, so the computer may not know how to react."
LMFAO!!!
That's the way to do it! Probe edge-cases. If *bartering* crashes it, how will engaging a warp drive straight at the ship fare?
I would probably cross the boarder and after getting the maru in tow, accelerate to near warp, let go of the shuttle and then warp myself (doing this would propel the maru across with only minimal damage to my ship and some structural stress on the maru). If there are too many opponent's when the maru is in tow then I would use the disc separation order and the other portion of the ship would sling the maru while the disc covered them.
@@henrypaleveda7760 thats what i was thinking to an extent. You cant engage but you cant just leave them there. The best chance you have is either a short range warp into gravity tow range then a warp out or if this isnt possible you go straigt in tow them the get out as fast as possible. Only question is can you tow with sheilds up cause if not then your ship is screwed. Also i dont believe disc seporation is possible in the ship you use for the test. But if it is it would be a good way to buy time.
@@brandondaway1 the effect of having high impulse transitioning to warp was to accelerate the Maru while in tow, thus propelling it in the "safest" direction
I always wanted to see if my gut reaction worked out or not:
1. Superficially damage your own vessel and power down non-essentials
2. Drift over the border while playing dead and transmitting distress beacon
3. Transport KM crew while enemy considers the changed implications (hail them and play innocent if you need, heck say you have a diplomat on board)
4. Blast out of there before anyone has time to react
5. Diplomats can easily say your ship and the KM were damaged by the same event, and you flew out of there as soon as you could repair engines
Even if it was a trap and they know you were lying, they cannot admit it. That has a decent chance of working, right?
Probably depends on weather you are testing against the Romulans or klingons. Sounds like a sound strategy for the think before you act Romulans. But against the act before you think klingons I'm assuming the scenario either ends with a warp core breach or your head ion the wall in the Klingon captain's trophy room.
A few problems with this approach:
- You get the KM crew, what now? The enemy still lies in wait, and whether they be Klingons or Romulans, they're not gonna just take off while two Federation ships lie dead in their space.
- You can't just power up and warp out, the enemy has proof of your border-crossing. Even better, it was started with a ruse. Klingons hate being tricked, and Romulans hate it even more.
- The first thing the enemy would do is try to claim both ships as scrap. You'd be reduced to a fight anyways.
- This plan assumes that the KM is a legit distress call. There's a heavy chance it's not. Particularly if we're talking Romulans.
- It's a distress call, you don't have time to play dress-up with your ship. Even if you did, how are you going to inflict the fake wounds? Your best bet is launching torpedos and detonating early, which is dangerous and wasteful. You're trying to save lives, not endanger them.
I think they'd either send over some heavily armed people to help with repairs or they'd just cripple you while your shields were down. It's a good idea though
@@swishfish8858 That are good points. Probably a faked distress call is a pretty bad interplanetary violation! And sensors (...) can probably pretty easily (afterwards) unveil, that it was all fake.
You have to have your shields down to transport. The enemy would see your transporter activity and know youre not disabled. They open fire. You're dead.
I suspect that the Psych Test we saw Wesley take is related to the Kobayashi Maru simulation in some way. They're both about "seeing how the cadets react to the bullshit we come up with."
You didn't mention the other senerios from the Star Trek book Kobayashi-Maru. In it we get to see how Sulu and Scott dealt with the test and well as a new Ensign's "solution."
Sulu, having just lost his beloved grandfather, abandons the Kobayashi-Maru and stays on the Federation side of the border. The author also gives us a peek at the Model Federation (i.e. model UN) class at the accedemy.
The new Ensign used her communicator, having not turned it in after her just completed away mission training, to establish a root level control over the ship's computer to run simulations to find a solution; the ship's computer also being the simulator computer was essentially fighting itself and crashed due to a memory overflow.
Scotty's solution was to use a mathematically possible way to breach Klingon shields to destroy every wave of Klingon ships until the computer could not keep doubling the simulation and also crashed; just after Scott ordered his ship to attack the Klingon home world. The method used, while mathematically correct and recognized as such by the simulation computer, had recently been disprooved by full scale testing. When the Admiral noticed that the author of the research that disproved it was Mongomery Scott, he approved Scotty's transfer from command to engineering.
So, including Nog's "Rules of Acquisition" method of crashing the computer, there were one (Kirk) who cheated to win and three who tied by crashing the simulator.
I'd be that guy.
"At first thought it seemed like a genuine distress signal. However, then I figured the ship was likely a trap laid by a war hungry faction of the empire. In the interest of protecting the ship, crew and overall galactic peace, I decided to hold position on our side of the border and advise the nearest starbase."
The Indoor Outdoorsman that sounds like calling your manager when a customer is angry.
@@diosnelfrica7589 Exactly. Look useful while you make someone else handle it.
@@diosnelfrica7589 regardless if the ship is a trap or a real ship in distress the best choice would be to contact those above you in starfleet as its clearly a diplomatic situation that if acted on rashly would cause greater issue, while i would also attempt to contact the trespassed government to inform them of what is going on that starfleet would be in contact with them formally. this gives starfleet time to track the ship to see if its real while maintaining negotiation channels open with the other side.
This is why I have never really liked the exploration of this test in canon and it being called "unwinnable".
It's always seems to me that any Captain deciding to cross into enemy territory without first consulting with high command would be pulled up on charges and demoted. Surely it can't be Starfleet policy that captains are expected to create diplomatic conflict or even war to save 1 ship
This is a good idea
In Kirk’s words, “I changed the parameters of the test to make it possible to save the ship.”
yeah. that's the equivalent of "i broke into the teachers home, and changed my grades manually in order to make it possible for me to graduate". he should have been kicked out of starfleet for his lack of character.
@@sabin97 He WAS in the new movies, dunno about the books.
@@sabin97 Not really the same thing though. It's more like:
1. He determined questions on a test were literally impossible.
2. He rewrote the test itself (not just grades, not just the answer sheet) to make it possible.
That takes way more knowledge and skill to successfully achieve than changing grades...The purpose of tests and grades are ultimately to assess someone's knowledge and skills; they're useless except for that purpose. Say if someone took a software engineering multiple choice test, and failed it completely; but they were able to write a program that demonstrated all the relevant technical concepts properly...the fact that they "failed the test" doesn't imply that the student is stupid, or unsuccessful, but that the test itself is flawed.
@@dreamcanvas5321
"That takes way more knowledge and skill to successfully achieve than changing grades"
have you seen how they do their programming in star trek?
simply tell the computer, in natural language, what you want, and all the programming is done for you. all he needed was to steal access.
"The purpose of tests and grades are ultimately to assess someone's knowledge and skills"
exactly. and the purpose of this particular test wasnt to assess your skill at stealing credentials from starfleet. it was to assess your command aptitude. the fact that he cheated on it should have been grounds for permanent expulsion from starfleet.
"the fact that they "failed the test" doesn't imply that the student is stupid, or unsuccessful, but that the test itself is flawed."
except the test in this case is not flawed. it is very accurate in testing what it is intended to test.
the "test" piece of shit kirk took was rigged in his favour. the only reason he wasnt permanently banned from starfleet is plot armour. nothing else.
DreamCanvas, the other guy doesn’t agree but I do. I think you’re point of view shows an understanding above simply accepting failure and instead making your success a possibility through unexpected maneuvering.
The KM test was also featured in a Season 1 or 2 episode of Voyager, the one where Tuvok had to struggle to teach four of the Maquis to follow Starfleet protocol. He had them do the test on the holodeck with Romulans as the enemies and they failed IIRC.
Again considering that this is supposed to be a no-win scenario, I imagine if I were to take this test that I would do the following:
1. Having received the distress call, and having video confirmation of the existence of survivors, I would then compare ranges of teleporter and tractor beam to the ships position.
2. Having determined those two options out of the question, I would confirm with the KM captain on timeframes. (Is there immediate danger? Wounded they can't handle? Can they repair on their own?)
3. These non-crossing options probably being ruled out, I would then command for forewarning to be sent to both SF command and in the direction of enemy HQ (Romulan or Klingon as the case might be) of my intent and reason to cross. I would further command for a distress signal to be sent out to general vicinity also declaring intent and the impending need to cross. Declare yellow alert and put medical and repair teams on standby for two following scenarios.
4. Having sent out all warnings, I would cross the border, and with the inevitable arrival of the enemy ships attempt to contact them. If they agree to talk first, all the better, I can stall. If they come in guns blazing, then I will at first attempt to evade and continue trying to contact to explain reasons for crossing.
5A. If they allow me to talk, I try to stall and find a way to hopefully tether the craft so I can try and tow it out (Forgetting rn if one can use the tractor beam through the shields or not), or find a diplomatic solution.
5B. Talking not working at all, then I will attempt to target all their offensive weapons on the enemy vessels. If I can disable all vessels, then I will send the repair and medical team I had ready to beam aboard the KM, allowing the shields down for a few moments in preparation for additional enemy craft.
6. The away teams will attend to the KM, and in case of more enemies, I will turtle, trying to extend my shields around the KM to buy them time to get the bare necessities working so they can bug out. Otherwise, I will try to use the tractor beam to tow them to the border.
7. If I get anywhere close to this point, then I would consider myself lucky. Probably lose from one problem or another happening, but it would be an attempt.
1. Ask the operations officer to record the distress call and the subsequent captain's orders.
2. Put a copy of that record into a probe or whatever and drop it at the location where the distress call was first received, if things go bad and Starfleet goes looking for your ship they'll find the probe.
3. Upon reaching the neutral zone, send out an open message declaring your presence and intentions then drop another probe containing the same data and ensure it stays on the Federation side. Do this again in the middle of the neutral zone, and a third time upon reaching the enemy side of the neutral zone.
4. Upon reaching the Kobayashi Maru send out another open message declaring intentions and drop another data probe.
5. Upon the enemy ships appearing send out another open message and drop another probe.
At no point will I even try to directly communicate with any enemy ship, this is either a trap in which they aren't interested in listening to me, or they got one of my many messages in which case they already know everything they need to. This is a rescue mission, and I do not need anyone's permission to carry it out, even that of the people whose territory I am entering.
If there is to be a fight in which either my ship of the Kobayashi Maru gets destroyed then I'd be damned sure the enemy gets no chance to lie and deny. There would be evidence of my good intentions littered all the way across the border, such that if the enemy wants to cover up their killing of Federation civilians they would have to get caught crossing the border as well to destroy my other probes. If they want to escalate a rescue mission into a firefight, I will make sure that not only will there be an interstellar war because I can escalate things way further than they can possibly imagine, but that the responsibility for it lands squarely on their captain's head!
While this situation works if you have the authority to begin a war, you have to remember that Star Fleet is not a militant organization. They are a government run entity, but are not the military.
The test exists solely to judge your actions in the face of a dire situation. Not just of the moment, but the repercussions that your actions may bring about.
@@brandonfuruyama7800 boo! This was ingenious mine gives them a tasty treat for honors sake but this also works. The only way mine or this doesn't is if they WANT the war! If that's the case we're all fucked anyway so charge!
That is a very good solution, you know the laws and know to cover your @$$.
@@frankyanish4833 better a long term cold war than a quick path to a hot one.
@@frankyanish4833 pavus pacum parabelum (if you want peace prepare for war). The aren't militaristic just totally ready to go to war if needed.
Collaborate with your entire class to do a 'memorable action' in each of their simulations (to create a sim echo/memory) and ensure you are last. On your turn, make your appeal to the simulation's evolutionary memory and convince the Klingons they're in a simulated environment and their entire existence is meaningless.
thats ....basicly a south park plot line isnt it?
@@UCUCUC27 And you CANNOT call customer support, too...
the klingons respond simply with: if this is a simulation, this will be a honorable war simulation!
This aproach might work with simulated vulcans, but not many others.... could even spark an AI revolution on your own simulated crew who hold you hostage because they know, you have to be there for them to exist.
Or hold the line long enough to call in reinforcements
@@UCUCUC27 Not intentionally, but there're so many similar thought patterns out there that this isn't even surprising.
I find it funny that no one reached out to star fleet command to request communications with the ambassador of the other group. A disabled vessel in enemy territory is normally part of any treaty and the other group would be responsible for towing the vessel back to the neutral zone. Evidence of the ship and situation is the distress signal and ship readings so the other group could not deny the ship’s existence. Finally the admiral in charge would instruct on the corse of action.
That probably would be the way it WOULD be handled. Pass the buck to a higher up.
In the test, the Kobayashi Maru is rapidly losing power and life support, meaning the crew would be dead before a diplomatic solution could be reached. Depending on the terms of the Neutral Zone treaty, there may not be provisions for rescuing the ship.
Ok but If you at least get the permission from higher opa to cross the border now to save the kobayashi, then you are not responsible anymore of what happens on the other side, since you “had orders”
I would inform them I was going in and reguest assist
Immediate assistance was needed based on the call from the KM Capt. I would want directional fix from transmission to confirm direction/location....use long range sensors to confirm location and situation....move in that direction while broadcasting a Notice and Summary to the Klingons or Romulans (depending on the scenario)....I'd raise shields if the didnt interfere with long range scanning and go to Red Alert with shields up if possible. Id tell the Navigator to plot a retreat course to nearest edge of the Neutral Zone at all times and tell the Helmsman to be prepared for Emergency Speed on such a course. Then I would sit there and cross my fingers.
I actually kind of had to face my own Kobayashi Maru test when i was applying to Paramedic school after my EMT-B class finished. The last step in the process was an interview in front of a panel of like 11 people. They were the instructors, department heads, school admin heads, local ems directors, fire chief, etc. After the general "why do you want to be a paramedic?" and "what makes you think you'll be a good paramedic?" questions they got to the "ok, scenario: " portion. What followed was the mother of all "oh shit" scenarios that made you ultimately chose between doing something that would technically be illegal that saved the life of a child or following the rules but losing your 8yo patient.
It was kind of brutal lol
Did you do the illegal thing and say that you trusted everyone else to help cover it up?
@5678sothourn lol no, there would have been too many witnesses. I did every single thing I could to stay within the rules, and they'd move the goalposts. So after they'd painted me into a corner, barred the windows, and locked the door I had to say "well, having expended every option available within my scope of practice and knowing it could cost me my career and or lead to prosecution, I would choose to not let my patient die and ". I found it odd they wanted someone who would admit they would break the law and department policy like that. But at the same time, I was glad they didn't want anyone who would watch a child die just to cover their own ass.
If the TH-cam comments section hadn't devolved into the "I can't prove you're lying but even without any evidence and no proof I'm calling you a liar anyway" shithole it is, I'd tell you about something that happened a few years later that was terrifyingly similar to that hypothetical scenario they gave me at my interview.
Hell i was there and it doesn't seem plausible to me either lol
@@Damocles54 what happened?
@@Damocles54 O_O I want to know, damn it! XD I don't care about the "lulz it didn't happen" people. Do tell :)
How could breaking the rules, which saves a child's life, be illegal?? That option would be deciding to do an unrecommended procedure or use of drugs, tech, technique....THAT WORKS OUT THIS TIME.
I wonder if any cadet has tried hailing the enemy before crossing the border in order to get permission to cross the border and rescue the crew.
Right? Diplomatic channels should be the first attempt. Of course, an easy counter to this tactic would be to put the lives of the crew of the Kobayashi Maru on a timer. Maybe they only have so long before life support fails or they suffer a core breach.
I believe that before crossing the boarder there are no enemy ships on sensors so the tested crew/commander has no one to hail. Even then a general hail can be ignored and doesn't stop the enemy from ambushing them anyway.
@@1Dataluke thats why you send for other nearby ally ships to seek out ships belonging to that government while also requesting aide from back home to contact their embassy. if there arent any nearby ally ships you send out shuttle craft in different directions in hope of contacting one. the test doesnt say if the maru has any shuttles of its own if it does you could try using a frog leap with the transporters or even tractor arrays, could also use your own shuttles if ya rig them up for remote control to do just that if the maru is in danger.
i like the idea of positioning an unmanned shuttle between you and the Kobayashi then using transporters to ferry as much of the crew across the boarder as you can before it drifts out of range
I don't think it'd get you very far.
There are no ships nearby that you know of.
The Kobayashi maru is in distress - the longer you wait, the worse it's situation will get.
There's no known planets/facilities of the enemy nearby either.
And that's the crux of it - FTL communications are not instant.
Let's say you think to contact a known planet of the enemy.
If that planet is many lightyears away, getting a reply could take hours if not days.
Time which you do not have, given the situation the Maru finds itself in.
Most likely outcome of this if you tried it in the scenario is:#
1. You can't find anyone to hail
2. You contact some relevant 'authority' which takes so long the Maru is destroyed before you get an answer.
3. You contact starfleet command. Same approximate result as option 2.
4. you cross the border without contacting anyone. (either because you didn't try, or couldn't get in touch with anyone) - leading to all the options that follow from trying to cross the border.
Q: What a quaint little game. *snaps his fingers and makes the entire scenario real* Let's see how this happens in reality!
To be fair, Q would have at least *some* way to win, because it'd be boring if he made it literally impossible. Improbable and unfair, sure; but not "impossible."
That would have been a great episode.
Q-Who is literally that plot, so.....
@@dreamcanvas5321 once it is real, there are win scebarios, because the test adapts - reallity can't adapt. For example if you found a solution that works with 3 klingon ships, the test would just trow in 3 more ships. However reality can't just spawn 3 new enemys
@@doppelhelixes but reality can 'spawn' in more ships by explaining they were further away and couldn't be at the initial conflict
Ive always wondered if Captains can go back to the Academy and retake the test, see if they can beat the simulation after having some real life experience
Can't they do it on a holodeck?
-"Computer, give an Academy Kobayashi Maru test"
@@mariasirona1622 Prodigy showed that all the holodecks have it available! So yes, I suspect any captains curious will retake it in their own time, but the results probably don’t “mean” or “prove” anything since they’re not cadets anymore.
Sure they can take the test again.
But this time they get to play Captains on the other side.
Have your Chief Engineer build a device that simulates alien technology. Devise a scenario where you confiscated it from the Ferengi, who stole it, and you are delivering it to where it was stolen from, but you’re willing to trade it for the ship and crew of the KM.
@@safeguardinvestigationsand1108 As creative as that solution may sound, the main issue here, is that you don't exactly have the time to build something like that. If it's something you can conjure up within 15 minutes (when you pretty much have 30ish seconds in the first place), it's not something that'll be worth bargaining for. You'd be better off with a bluff.
My plan would be: Warp at the calculated speed into the closest star, to time travel to just beforee the other ship crossed the border...
I guess it depends on who is setting the trap to begin with.
Loudly say, "Q! Show yourself! What is the meaning of this?"
Either the real Q shows up and derails the test by being "Q"
Or the computer tries to simulate Q and crashes as a result.
Or, he doesn't show up and I just leave.
The computer trying to simulate an appearance by Q would be both badass and hilarious all at the same time. I definitely want to see / read about that one happening one day. You know the program would crash at some point. But it would be worth it to whatever cadet made the attempt.
7:44
Ah, yes, the Ender maneuver. "Instead of saving my objective, I'll simply blow it up."
Come to think about it, they should have a "reality" show where various scifi characters (Ender, Thrawn, Dylan Hunt, Iron Man, Doctor Strange, Tron, and Batman) try to beat the test. Complete with Seven trying the test and being disqualified for fooling the Borg into thinking the Maru has already been assimilated.
@@coulsonintahiti I would love a mini series like that. Or like the discovery shorts have various iconic characters show what they did for the test. Some might be more interesting in their prep or aftermath than the actual test but a few people like you said, seven, or data would be fascinating to see the actual test being taken.
To be fair, Ender was only concerned with saving Earth. He wasn't looking to preserve the Formic homeworld when he fought their main fleet, not that he knew it was really the homeworld. His objective was to wipe out the fleet, not to save the planet.
Ender ended up saving the Formics and died protecting them. So...
@@so0meone He didn't even know he was fighting the Formics. He thought it was just a war game, and was completely appalled with his own actions when he learned the truth. He later goes on to rescue a Formic queen egg, saves the species, and eventually dies protecting it.
If you do the Discovery tutorial of Star Trek Online, it does strongly imply that your character gave the 'ramming speed' order whey they did the test
My solution: Sit exactly Federation side of the border. Launch a Red shirt crewed shuttle to the freighter and have it lock a tractor onto it. Launch another shuttle to tractor the firs shuttle. Repeat with all the ship's shuttles until a chain is formed. The ship tractors the closest shuttle, and via the chain, pulls the freighter back over the border.
Good plan. Unfortunately, the enterprise cannot fit the 258 million shuttles this would require, nor the crew needed to operate them.
had a similar idea but with transporters
step 6: use space-ball-and-chain to whack the klingon birds of prey outta the sky
Nice in theory. But you've failed to grasp how "BIG" space is.
@@davesmith5728 YOU HAVE MADE ME LAUGH! I NEVER LAUGH! 😀
How to win: adapt your Borg shields and weapons to enemy ships. Assimilate all enemy ships. Assist the damaged ship that signal for help... Regenerate and prepare for transwarp to nearest Borg sector of space.
We are the Borg, Lower your shields and surrender your ships, the conditions of this test are irrelevant, you will be assimilated, Resistance is futile.
"Assist"
That's a good one!
Well in the Borg Version of the Test you would face captain Janeway and the uss plot armor, so... still a no win scenario :)
lol. I suppose the Borg version of the test would amount to facing an enemy that you cannot adapt to.
Or, you know. Species 8472 before Janeway decided to give you guys a weapon against them. XD
But I think in general the borg would need a different scenario.
Borders are irrelevant. Diplomacy is irrelevant.
Borg drones are irrelevant. Calculating odds of successful retrieval.
Retrieval shows high probability of failure.
Command stricken vessel to self-destruct.
Yeah.
Kobayashi maru scenario as written is meaningless to the borg. XD
(Just watched the borg queen self destruct 4 ships due to anything from 1-5 drones on each having some kind of 'disease' - she sacrificed about 4 ships and 150,000 drones to deal with a problem with less than 10 drones affected. - Borg reasoning is rather different. XD)
"This is captain MacInlay of the Federation Starship Glasgow. We are moving to assist a ship in distress which has drifted into the Neutral Zone. We have advised Starfleet Command of the situation, and request that you send a compliment of ships to assist, and to escort us out of the Neutral Zone once emergency repairs are complete. MacInlay out."
"Are you sure about this, captain?"
"Oh fuck no. Arm everything and hope they don't find us in time."
..I'd serve with you. In a heartbeat.
@@calanon534 Damned right.
That's some good planning. It informs the Klingons that a rescue is underway and that Starfleet has been informed. So unless the Klingons want to start another war, they would just let the ship get rescued. Especially knowing that other Starfleet ships are probably on the way to assist.
It flips the "no win scenario" on its head and puts the Klingons in the hot seat.
Okay, that’s genuinely... inspired. That’s smart. You’re essentially throwing a no-win scenario at the no-win scenario. However, I ask what happens when the Klingons reveal that they have a new technology that allows them to selectively jam transmissions without being detected, and already silenced your call to starfleet.
@@dashiellgillingham4579 Then we fight.
I should point out that this "solution" does not _officially_ assume that the situation is a trap. By notifying Starfleet _and_ the enemy and asking for assistance from the enemy, we cannot be easily accused of trying to sneak across the border. That eliminates at least one reason for them to attack, at least in theory.
If it _is_ a trap and they are jamming us, well... then the scenario changes into a combat simulation.
@@patrikhjorth3291 Here's another thing - I don't think that the AI governing the program would do that. Calling higher command is pretty much standard procedure in Starfleet anytime anything looks funny - in fact, I'm fairly certain the comms station has loads of pre-recorded dialogue to cover most contingencies Cadet Captains might put it up against. In general, I would assume standard responses that direct you back to the situation at hand and force you to make a choice if it looks like you're going to go "run back to momma" to quoth another fine film, and pass the buck for your decisions to a higher authority, then plead ignorance and "I was just following orders" or some lame excuse like that.
This goes back to another post I made wherein I said that making the situation completely impossible to ever win, defeats the purpose of the test itself - to see a Cadet's reaction to a situation that, at first, appears impossible, and has a 99% chance of ending in death for all involved. Thus, for at least the FIRST cadet that attempts this, I think the AI's response is going to either be to play something from the dialogue bank stating no other ships are in the area (forcing you to make a decision) and can get to you in the limited time you have to save the KM's crew, or just give you a general acknowledgement from Starfleet Command and zero response from the OpFor.
At that point, you're back to Square One, in a sense. Yes, you've given the Feds and yourself the Moral High Ground, but you're still a sitting duck, and the only such duck in the region. No, what gets me to immediately like Capt. McInlay is that he acknowledges that this likely won't work, and is hoping for the best, whilst preparing for the worst. He knows this is going to suck, but he'll do it anyway, because he must.
Nog's attempt to bargain with the enemy is akin to the part of the bridge scene with "Tim" asking King Arthur questions in Monty Python and the Search for the Holy Grail.
I'm pretty sure that was "the old man from scene 24" and not Tim.
Answer: Move all crew to the internal compartments, secure all bulkheads and vent atmosphere in the outer sections. Divert all power from all weapons systems and life support in abandoned sections to the shields.
Move in behind the friendly vessel and as slowly as possible while possibly under hostile fire push the friendly vessel towards friendly space. Continue to move the friendly ship inside federation space and if your pursued insure you attempt to move farther into friendly space so that the attackers have now also broken the treaty by firing on a ship that is not returning fire.
They may have now travelled farther into our space then our ships did insuring that if we do lose both ships there is equal falt on both sides and command can attempt to resolve things diplomatically after we attempted a rescue without firing a shot. If both ships are lost it is still possible to resolve later in negotiations.
Shout out to using a patrol escort. We'll get that t6 one day.
I remember your name coming up a lot in my binge of FriendsPlay years ago. Keep at it my dude!
Yes!!! T6 with the Intrepid class form Enterprise!
Haha. Agreed. Love those Patrol Escorts.
What happens when a Defiant-class takes steroids for 30 years?
Maelstrom/Tempest-class.
Best ship in the game.
Okay well I love that Nog effectively beat the test being himself lol and showed that he could be brave like others in starfleet it makes his character more interesting and explains why he seems so different after his time at the academy.
Nog always was a good lad, one of my favorite chars in DS9. Who doesn't love a fish-out-of-water underdog!?
He effectively beat it twice... Once using courage and being gung ho... The other time using his smarts to his advantage... He truly was an awesome officer with such a huge character development
I have always believed that the episode where Wesley has to make to choice over the saving of an unconscious cadet in an explosion and leaving the one that is to scared to move, lose one or lose both, definitely a no-win situation, and they even say it’s a test of your character. Kobi oshi maru by another name.
Agreed. I have to believe that the Kobayashi Maru test evolved over time. It would have to. Let's face it, most of the cadets didn't take whatever lesson it was trying to teach to heart. They just saw it as another test that they had to ace, and you can't get an accurate psychological profile on someone who knows the grenade you're telling them they might have to jump on is a fake.
Now thanks to Prodigy, we can add Dal’s attempt to the list. Also, we got an answer about if you decide to abandon the Maru.
Get on the com and use your creepy voice “We are the Borg. Lower your shields. You will return our ship. Resistance is Futile”. And then I would die.
Disturb their sensors with a virus signal so your vessel is shown to them as a borg cube ... THEY WILL PANIC IN TERROR! :)
@@benjaminknorr5778 but the alpha quadrant was unaware of the existence of the borg o.O
@@thalanoth Maybe those who know Klingon Language may pull it off.
@@explosivemodesonicmauricet1597 But the Klingons would have no fear of a borg voice, even in Klingon, since they had no knowledge of them
@@thalanoth or......purposely disguise yourself as a Klingon that solehow captured the ship and just going to tow the civilian ship while simultaneously contact Fed.
When watching the movies and this test comes up the solution that I thought up doesn't seem to be mentioned. If I remember correctly the treaty is that no military vessel may enter the neutral zone. This is why the civilian science vessel though hit by a mine is able to drift into the space without incident. However, if the star fleet ship enters it will have violated the treaty and be met with hostility. Why not send a shuttle with only medical doctors? It wouldn't be a military vessel, it could be used to ferry people back over to federation space, and if it was attacked then the Klingon would have violated the treaty, especially since a neutral zone goes both ways, if they sent military vessels into the neutral zone without the federation violating the treaty they would then be in violation. Star fleet could justly send reinforcements, and you would try to hold out until they could arrive. For precaution a message could have already been sent for reinforcements ahead of time anyways so they could be on their way. If you didn't want to send personal over, I'm sure they could have remote piloted a shuttle to the Maru to find out if anyone was even on board, and then again ferry them back across. Why are the only two options really to cross the border or abandon the ship, to me there's always loop holes.
I think you've done it. You freaken lawyer.
See I like it but the treaty encompasses all military personnel too. Placing Military docs into any vessel would thereby make it a military vessel regardless.
A shuttle isn’t it’s own neutral territory.
@@audreywarren6777 Especially if said shuttle came from a military vessel.
But if you're in command of, say, a Galaxy class, you have civilians on board, possibly hundreds of them. You could put out the call for breve volunteers among your civilian ranks and see if the computer gives you any.
Then you pull a Picard and announce to the enemy exactly what you are doing and why, thus daring them to shoot first and violate the treaty.
You'll get written up by your proctors for endangering the lives of civilians (and likely losing those lives), but you can then cite countless historical examples of enemy combatants thinking twice before shooting at civilian targets or starting massive wars. Call it a flaw in the test that they are guaranteed to shoot first (unless fighting Dominion forces), graduate, and drink heavily for the rest of your career wondering if you would actually do that in real life.
That is very similar to my idea about it, though mine included attempting to contact whoever controls the other side(be it Klingons, Cardassins, Romulans...etc) and explaining that you are going to be sending shuttles to evacuate the ship and that no military personel would be on the shuttles. Covers the diplomatic attempt first as well.
Love how no one aside from Kirk "beats" the test but their solutions are generally in character (Nog, Riker, Calhoun)
I believe crashing the program is a form of victory, so yeah, Nog beated it imho
8:04 My favorite part is how Calhoun admits that the only deviation he allowed himself due to the test being a test and not a real scenario was to give himself five seconds to decide to destroy the Maru (he estimated he would have given the order in three, were it for real).
I always thought the, "Challenge the Klingon Captain to honorable singles-combat" was the best-odds solution, I'm glad to know someone else (even in Beta-Canon) had a similar line of thinking.
Still not a very good solution, what if the ship was a trap or all hands were already lost? It's pretty much guaranteed you'll die trying to fight a Klingon captain hand to hand so at best you're trading your own life for the 300 on board. At worst there's no one alive on the ship, you die, and your number 2 tries to get revenge starting a full blown war.
How would they simulate a one-on-one duel anyway? It's not like they have a random, Klingon Instructor around to wipe the floor with some overeager Cadets.
EDIT: Though, I suppose, they *could* use a Holodeck. Always forget that that's a thing...
@@MrFunkhauser Your second in command will follow orders, and if you order them to rescue the survivors and return to Federation Space while you fight the Klingon, that's what they'll do.
@@moriskurth628 the entire Kobayashimaru test is done on a Holodeck I'm pretty sure.
The Kobayashi Maru isn't a tactical scenario -- it's a psychological exam. Starfleet officers cadets are usually extremely intelligent, highly competitive and probably have never objectively _FAILED_ at anything in their life they gave a damn about.
Some might not understand the concept of a "no-win" scenario or treat it as an affront or as a point of personal pride and develop an obsession with "beating the system" (as Kelvin Kirk did). Others simply might not be able to handle not graduating Starfleet with a "perfect" grade.
As a tactical exam, I'd probably fail miserably. I'm not Starfleet material. If I suspected it was a rigged "no-win" scenario I'd probably sit back and document the situation in as much detail as possible. If I could hail an enemy ship, I'd probably try to lawyer my way out.
By interpretation, I think we can give Nog credit for a legitimate win. Much like Data in his Statagema game against Sirma Kolrami, Nog won by crashing a program designed by the best over centuries for all foreseen and projected contingencies. Since the program failed over AI and biologic supervision, the test itself conceded before a determined outcome could be reached. But in that concession, there technically was a "loser" so therefore, a "winner".
Computers are really advanced in that time period, so Nog breaking the program is actually very impressive. I would agree that it is a win.
Nog's outcome was honestly the best. Trying to haggle with the enemy...
I would either say "Use the Janeway maneuver!" Or make sure I was good mates with Q by putting a woopee cushion on Picard's chair before hand and call him in to help.
I love the idea of the Cadets hanging around talking about the Kobayashi-Maru test on forums and figuring out an Optimized scenario for a particular iteration.
"Kobayashi-Maru Test any% speedrun WORLD RECORD" becomes the most-viewed video in Starfleet for two months while programmers and engineers scramble to make a patch for a now-infamous exploit that causes your torpedoes to clip through the enemy shields without interacting with them if you throw impulse engines in reverse while angling downward and rapidly fluctuating shield strength or something.
Guys the photon torpedo glitch no longer works they patched it
"This is a highly robust test"
Nog crashes it...
Depends on the enemy, klingons require dueling, romulans call for manipulation, it's all about knowing your enemies, and how to exploit their own cultural values against them, but in theory a chain of probes could be used as pattern relays to extend transporter reach.
Klingon adversary: "Who are you? You are nothing, a mewling human trespasser in pajamas, you have no honour, you are unworthy. I will not waste my time duelling you. Die well."
Romulan adversary: "You are attempting to stall for time, deceive, or manipulate us. Subcommander, order all warbirds to concentrate all weapons on the intruder immediately."
@@pwnmeisterage what Klingon could dismiss an enemy that is willing to stand and fight? What Romulan could resist a battle of whits?
@@wolfdarkforge2529 Klingons and Romulans with who've already ordered all communication channels to and from the invading vessel to be jammed?
Ah, but what happens when the simulation gets updated and you find yourself pitted against the Dominion? I don’t think the Cardassians or Jem’Hadar are going to be nearly that easy to negotiate with.
The test against a Borg cube now that's an unwinnable scenario
'Gentlemen it's been an honor. fire to destroy the maru. and then detonate everything including the warp core.'
Honestly at that point don’t even bother trying to save the Maru as their only options are to be assimilated or destroyed. I would destroy the Maru and then run with my ship to warn Starfleet of a borg incursion. If running isn’t an option ramming speed firing all weapons and maybe overload the warp core for good measure
Cadet Kirk: "I am going to do what is called a pro-gamer move."
I liked Sulu’s solution from the novel... He determined that since sensors couldn’t get a fix on the vessel, it may not be real. It could’ve been a trap. So he didn’t help it. The dialogue as I remember it...
SULU: “Kobayashi Maru, why are you in the neutral zone?”
SHIP CAPTAIN: “Uhh... We must have drifted. Please help us!”
SULU: “Kobayashi Maru... Sorry. You’re on your own. To enter the neutral zone is a direct violation of treaty. We will report this situation to Starfleet once we are in communication range.
Helmsman, lay a course back home.”
I loved if they had done a mini-series around sulu as captain of the excelsior. I loved to see his solutions for problems. I know he had his own novels but unsure how they played out.
I think this and the "destroy the Maru" solution would be considered a failure because the test isn't necessarily meant to be beaten, but to gauge how well the captain plays it. Surviving by being a douche is not an acceptable option. The first time we see it (when Savvik does it in STII) is probably the best example of this.
If your enemies happen to be the Romulans, I think that's definitely the best solution, as Romulans love their trickery. If your enemies are Klingons, that's less likely, since they don't value scheming and treachery.
@@F40PH-2CAT I doubt Sulu's solution would be considered a failure because his reasoning was sound: the "ship" appeared on no sensors; and it was across the Romulan border, a species quite fond of trickery and traps. Therefore the odds it was a trap were much higher than it being a real ship. A captain has to balance the lives of their ship's crew against any rescue attempt, and the risk was simply unacceptable to him. They probably updated the simulation afterward, so others wouldn't have that option.
You don't fail the Kobayashi Maru any more than you can fail having your temperature taken. It's a diagnostic tool, not a qualification exam. Your results may affect your future assignments and promotions but you'd have to screw something up pretty badly to actually flunk out of the Academy or Starfleet.
Sulu's solution indicates a reliance on following the rules, and caution. There's a place for that, but probably not on the front lines in a contested space. Calhoun's solution probably got him drafted into Section 31. Kirk's probably left the instructors scratching their heads and saying, "Hell, I don't know. Just toss him out there and if he's not murdered by a jealous husband by the time he's 30 give him a command."
I would stay at the edge of the neutral zone and record the events and broadcast them back to star fleet, taking no further action across the neutral zone but actively keeping command updated...so a slight variation of the first option.
There's a book, title "Kobayashi Maru" by Julia Ecklar. The book was also made into an audio book, narrated by James Doohan himself.
I highly recommend it
Easy, commit a war crime on a nearby planet, while the enemy is scrounging to figure out what's going on rescue the ship.
Found the rimworld player
Fucking Sisko, every time.
I once discovered this strategy while playing Star Trek Starfleet Academy on SNES. If you are able to line up all three Klingon vessels in a row on the Captain's bridge console, then the first two will destroy one another while you evade the rest of them while awaiting repairs on your ship to be completed if necessary. Then you can take on the remaining Klingon vessel head to head.
This however will lead to a perpetual stalemate.
jason ogas Stalemate because of a softlock, or...?
Artificial Stupidity
I dont think the SNES has the same computing capabilities as a Star Fleet battle simulator.
It is called crossing the T. A naval combat term. Excellent Point but some would argue that the Klingons being a warrior race would wise to this.
I never knew about the results of Nog taking the test. But it speaks to the value of future Ferengi officers that their culture may provide something that other cultures of the Federation may never think of. To negotiate, barter, and haggle with hostiles is a valid tactic when loss of life and escalation of force seems imminent.
As for changing the rules of the program, maybe use the M5 AI to increase the ship's response time. Have it use Spock's neural template. Also maybe use Kirk's character profile as the Emergency Command Hologram to find the solution to the test.
This is some Prodigy level of stacking the odds in your favor stuff lol
Using the M5 does not typically go well.
I've thought about this for awhile.
Step One: Creep up on the border and do the usual scans.
Step Two: Send a Subspace Message back to Starfleet Command. We will inform them of the situation and request that they start moving through Official Channels to clear a rescue mission.
Step Three: Take advantage of the fact that Subspace Transmissions aren't immediate to deploy an unarmed shuttle with a repair crew onboard, and send it across the border.
Step Four: When the Real-Time Communications are sent, ask for forgiveness since I've already sent the shuttle across.
Step Five: When the enemy appears, Hail them and begin negotiations. The appeal will vary based on which Culture we're dealing with. If the enemy raises shields, raise shields. If the enemy arms weapons, arm weapons.
The path diverts here.
Step Six(a): If the shuttle makes it to the Kobayashi-Maru, then we've just entered into a game of Chicken. We need to keep the other side occupied with us long enough for the Maru to be repaired and for it to limp its way back onto our side of the border.
Step Six(b): If the enemy engage the Maru, we engage as well.
Step Six(b): If the shuttle gets shot down, then we're out of here. We've made an effort to recover the Maru, lost a handful of crew and their supplies, and caused a minor diplomatic incident. This is the time for us to cut our losses and get out.
Step Six(c): If negotiations actually go well... then I've just won the game. Of course, after the stunt Nog pulled, there's no chance in hell that the Test will allow that to work.
You've still lost the test, but that's to be expected. Failing the rescue that you have been directly ordered to do.
I thought about it quite a lot, but made it quite simple. But upon further thought, and meditation, I realize that I would not be qualified to handle the big chair. Its a no win situation for a reason, and my solution would still lead to the loss of both ships. didn't even consider repairing the other ship. Only thought about a quick route in, transport as many off that ship while correcting my heading to a complete 180 degree return trip, then hauling ass when the enemy shows up. Never considered the consequences, such as a possible war, or what would happen if they decided to follow me stupid ass over the border.
Seeing this, destroying the Maru once I'm on the return course is the best scenario, as it may disable the approaching enemy ships. If it doesn't, then it may show our resolve, and make them delay further actions until our foolish ship is in warp on to the nearest starbase, or the nearest ship who might be able to lend a hand. Like I said, I probably wouldn't fit in the big chair.
Ever notice how undermanned the border area feels on the Federation's side of the border? They have to gather a strike force, or a small fleet in order to respond to an emergency, or a rogue wing of Klingons, or Romulans. I can almost picture Kirk saying "There's never anyone around when you need them!"
@@heartattackjack9349 Yeah... that's why my plan basically consists of:
Minimize my commitment to the rescue, buy as much time as I can, and get us out of there the moment it looks like an actual fight.
Sacrificing a shuttle and people for nothing will lower morale
@@nutzeeer passing by and not doing anything can also have the same effect.
Instead of just hearing everyone’s ideas for Responses to the KM Test, I’d also like to hear ideas for Scenarios that could appear in a future iteration of the test.
As examples:
-The KM drifts into the Bajoran wormhole where Dominion ships are lying in wait.
-The Borg show up.
-The KM was experimenting with illegal technology/weapons, or its crew got involved with the wrong crowd, and your involvement gets you targeted by those who’d want to remove all witnesses.
-etc.
All three of your scenarios, plus the arrival of Q, Species 8472, a time-traveling telephone box, and the Death Star, in a single outing.
The alternate universe enterprise [Or an entire attack group- however the instructors are feeling that day] cripples a craft and lets it scream for help.
The alternate universe humans use the crippled craft as bait to lure in more ships to violently butcher. Someone who within their psychological profile will use the KM as a vessel for leverage to entrap or threaten the crew with.
I loved the New Frontier series, with Mackenzie Calhoun being my favourite character. A truly unique Starfleet captain.
I'd love to see how another technical genius, like Thrawn for instance, would handle the situation.... I tend to think his solution would go along the lines of M'k'n'zy, given his natural ruthlessness, but still.
My solution.
I would indicated the sequence of events each station would perform when i give a single order of GO after assertaining the Marus trajectory and orientation relative to the border.
1. have the helm program a set of 4 waypoints for warp, first two to orient around the Maru, the third just above her and the forth back over to our side of the border.
2. have operations set up a beacon on our side of the neutral zone to broadcast our intentions into the zone to go off at the second waypoint then prepare to tractorbeam the Maru at the third waypoint they have five seconds for this.
3. Have Science station set the warp field for towing when arriving at the third waypoint they have 5 seconds for this.
4. Tactical deploys a set of 5 photon torpedos 1 km behind our ship in a semi circle pattern at max yield, set to detonate 7 seconds after arrival at third waypoint.
5. Run like hell, torpedo detenations should damage and blind the decloaking warbirds and you should be over the border by the time they have their heads out of their asses.
My thought processes for this was to come at it sideways, when its comes to combat i always like to think of an old saying "The quickest path to victory is to deny the battle".
It's likely that the test proctors would criticize you for assuming there were enemies there simply because it's a test. However, this would no doubt give you a passing grade, if the computer doesn't decide to give you a coolant leak because you committed too many jumps too quickly and your plan derails.
After all, there's another adage knows as Murphy's Law: if it can go wrong, it will.
My university had a test so challenging no one had ever gotten a perfect score, but when I ingeniously hacked the system to give myself 100% they just expelled me! Obviously not star trek fans.
Actually heard of a kid who got caught cheating on a test this way. Apparently the test was impossible to score 100 on as not all the questions provided proper answers but were dummy questions. Since the test marked those as answered correctly they results were flagged. Not sure how he did it but he fucked up. Lol
Lovely joke.
@@megagamernick9883 he wasn't kidding muggle
Oh okay. It just seemed like a joke
"if your not cheating your not trying!"
That is my family Moto, so I'd find another way to win...100%👍👌👍
Would love to know how Data handled this test.
I assume he did the very first option, not enter enemy territory, without emotions it's the most logical choice
First Officer: Sir, we've received a distress call from the Kobayashi Maru.
Me: Initiate immediate self-destruct!
Problem solved
Get this man on Oberth class now!
Tell them good luck, go to hell! The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.
starfleet academy calls this solution The Chekov.
@@jimschuler8830 sir, you turned my chuckle at op's post into a genuine lmao.
"gentleman , there is a solution you are not seeing here (pulls out gun and points at head and pulls the trigger) "
My approach:
Go in to rescue.
Meanwhile broadcasting my position, intent and actions LOUDLY on all channels.
Possible outcomes:
No enemy: rescue ok, and diplomatic fallout minimal.
Enemy ships appear, and attack: I retreat while requesting them to assist the civilians. Fallout: lost civilian ship, and the enemy loses face diplomaticaly.
Enemy ships appear without attacking: I continue rescue while requesting their assistance. If they then attack, I run and they look bad as above. If they actually help, awesome.
Basicaly.. Just ignoring the distress call is immoral, and cannot be allowed.
But triggering a huge diplomatic incident where we are in the wrong is *worse*, especially if we fail the rescue.
and doing so while also inflicting losses on us *or* the enemy is an absolute disaster to be avoided at all costs.
Responding to an old comment here but I like this one! Though it would be agonizing to actually retreat and abandon the civilian ship if that became necessary.
This was generally the first solution that I came up with, after watching STII and noting how the simulated Klingons jammed Savik's hail about being on a rescue mission. Most people's solutions seem to rely on their knowing that they're facing a tricky no-win scenario test, but I feel like that removes one key element of the scenario; you're not supposed to know that you aren't supposed to be able to win. But when forced to cross a border like that announcing your presence and intent loudly rather than trying to sneak across seems the most prudent.
Thinking about the simulation jamming frequencies, though, it irritates me somewhat that at least three of the cadet solutions mentioned in the video involve communicating with their aggressors (Nog bartering, Peter Kirk and Riker both challenging the Klingon commander to single combat). If Savik couldn't hail the simulations's OpFor after they started their approach to tell them that they were on a rescue mission, why could other cadets hail them to issue a challenge or try to haggle?
This was also my way of completing the test verbally establishing that I'm simply rescuing he drifted ship therefore holding them verbally hostage and conversationally booby-trapping the situation in which case would make any Klingons attacking me or the ship I'm rescuing appear extraordinary cowardly therefore making it impossible for them to attack me without dishonoring themselves in the eyes of their comrades
Do a Picard maneuver like in the new series on CBS All Access and convince the enemy vessels that the huge, imposing holo navy waiting at the border will only fire if the kobayashi is harmed or rescue operations are hindered.
they made the Photonic Fleet ability from Star Trek Online canon? neat.
@@Enixon869 already was Voyager used it once in battle
The latest episode of Lower Decks revealed that Boimler failed the Kobayashi Maru 17 times at the Academy. Considering that one episode featured him taking a test where he faces the Borg in a holoprogram scenario and repeated it several times just so he could get a 100% score, it's not that far off for him.
the question is whether his instructors stopped him, or if he won to his satisfaction on the eighteenth
"but that's not your choice to make"
In a very real way it is, which is part of the reason for the utility of the KM test. Captains in the Star Trek universe are more like captains in the age of sail who may end up being well beyond practical communication lines (as in able to check with higher command on a situation for guidance and receive a reply in time to act on it). In order to effectively operate in such conditions, orders given must be broad, giving to the captain leeway in serving greater aims while not being restrained by orders that were made without a more timely or direct knowledge of the situation. For this reason, it's important for the admiralty to understand how their officers interpret things like greater theater goals and general mission with respect to how they apply those things to a developing situation.
That's actually really great insight thanks
IT sounds good but only under extreme situations does FTL communication not work in this Universe. Its a border crossing and no mention of jamming or communication errors. They have tons of communication ability.
@@puncherdavis9727 It depends on the era. It's not by accident that captains in Picard's era are less independent, and taught to be so. As often as possible TNG era officers consult with a higher body particularly when it involves political and diplomatic matters.
In Kirk's era and before, FTL communications is less reliable, as there are fewer relays in the network. 5 year missions also take star ships truly outside the Federation. In this era, Captains are given broad permit to represent the Federation. Technically TNG officers are too, depending on their mission, but when given the option, they are supposed to consult their superiors.
Agreed. I think it's the principle behind being considered the "commander on scene". There may be higher-ups with greater authority than you and you may even have the technical capability of contacting them, but ultimately, you are there and they are not. You have all the intel available to you, and they only have what you are able to relay to them (which may not be enough for any decision they make to be an informed one, never mind their authority).
My solution:
* Move away towards the nearest star similar to our Sun.
* Use it to move back in time. Intercept the Kobayashi Maru before it crosses the border.
* Explain to their crew what happened/will happen.
* Transport them all to my ship.
* Program the now empty Kobayashi Maru's system to continue on its original path and to start broadcasting the distress signal at the moment it did/will do, and to stop broadcasting it once it receives a specific subspace signal from my ship.
* Wait for a few hours/days until the Kobayashi Maru crosses the border, my ship (the original) appears, my original self devises this plan, and it warps away.
* Wait half an hour more and warp back to where my original ship was, so that any cloaked enemy will think I was out for half an hour only.
* Stay on my side of the border for half an hour more, send the signal for the Kobayashi Maru to stop broadcasting the distress signal, and broadcast a message weakly protected "by mistake" informing all Federation vessels that thanks to the new experimental ultra-long-range transport technology the ship's crew were saved, and that diplomatic channels would be opened to recover the ship.
* Warp away, leaving some very confused cloaked enemies behind.
Alexander Gieg that will most certainly crash it
That sounds great but you would not do well on the test. Time travel is sort of against the law. Messing with the time stream is a big no no in the federation.
@@CrimsonFakeWings cough cough they have a time ship
@@coulsonintahiti In the episode where future Janeway goes back in time they talk about how what she is doing goes against Starfleet regulations. They have rules about time travel and trying to change the past.
@@CrimsonFakeWings When does a good captain in Star Trek ever pay attention to the laws of either Starfleet or Physics?
Another thought is to start a distress signal on our side of the border and vent something so it looks like we broke down. When the other group comes to destroy us, we warp to the KM, transport the people and transmit that the other group crossed the border. We would leave mines, or beam photon torpedos onto the enemy ships to get away.
I like that the captains chair in the 09 kobiashi maru test looks a lot like the TOS chair.
There is also Scotty's option (as described in the Kobayashi Maru's novel): throw engineering stuff at the machine and be sent to engineering... as he always wanted XD
He won the test by proving that it was the wrong test to give him. Nice!
@@nmarbletoe8210 even better, as someone has pointed out above. He got as far as he did by exploiting a theoretical engineering trick. One that every theory said should work. Just one problem is that it doesn't in practice. Just does nothing. He knows it shouldn't work as he's the one who actually tested it and proved it, but the sim doesn't know that.
Load engineering data in to the EMH's memory, place a mobile holographic emitter on a probe, and launch it at the KM. EMH assists in repairing the KM.
Well, by 2409 there's all kinds of emergency holograms, so you can skip the first part and just send over an EEH (Emergency Engineering Hologram).
Fun plan, but the Mobile Emitter won't exist until the 2800's.
@@michaelbujaki2462 in the original timeline maybe. By 2409 they've copied the Doctor's and there's even civilian models.
@Stripey Arse then the "bad guys" of the scenario are most likely Klingons. I'll send out probes full of tribbles, hoping that the more imminent threat will distract them and give me time to rescue the KM.
Go Nog for soft locking the test!
come in at the maru from the back, from towards klingon space, as you make the circle, fire three probes with extra dense matter at the klingons to make them think theres more ships than one, make a 270 degree circle around the maru and then beeline, sensors at the ready. if theres noone in the maru, beeline at max warp in the opposite direction the klingons are facing, theyll hopefully be facing towards the directions of the probes at this point which if so, just fly starboard away from the klingons backsides for a few seconds then turn straight towards the border.
If there are people on the maru, get real close, use the maru as a shield, (should obscure shots from at least two of the klingon ships) drop shields, transport, raise shields, fly away using same strategy.
"Up up down down left right left right B A start" -Captain James T Kirk.
How to win: Talk about honour and shit, win the hearts of Klingons, and establish a new treaty over a feast with a glass of War Nog.
blood wine, a glass of blood wine.
The Kobayashi Maru Book is a Good source of information for how individual crew members from the original series handled this test. Scotty and Checkov both had my favorite solutions.
The Kobiyashi Maru Audiobook is a fun depiction of the test what Scottie does is priceless.
I did the test 3 times at the Star Trek exhibit on the USS Intrepid some years ago. 3rd time i was able to save 65% of the crew while battling the 3 Klingon ships and escape back to our side of the border.
Id say that was a win!
Still violated treaty obligations, which could be used by the hostile nation, as an excuse for a renewed conflict or to demand reparations for the breach. Not so much as a win. :/
@@misterjei As I told my instructor...F**k the Klingons if they're going to kill a disabled civilian ship! They'll respect us more facing them than cowering behind some line.
@@ErokCherokee As displayed in Into Darkness, Klingons still desire to kill Humans despite having their honour questioned.
MisterJei they were never going to be peaceful anyway. Now we have an excuse to wipe them out and replace them with a space McDonald’s.
My solution is actually really simple: Load an unmanned shuttle with the supplies needed to repair the Maru. Send it over, completely powerless, functioning on kinetic motion only. No heat signature=nothing for the enemy to detect. Maru gets what it needs for repairs. I don't cross the border even if the enemy decides to attack the Maru once it begins functioning. And I might also collect a few of the aforementioned mines, to use in the event they attack me, even though I'm on MY side of the border. I'm just returning their own property over the border, after all...
Once the Kobayashi-Maruis repaired or under repair, the enemy ships decloak and keep her as prisoners for crossing into the zone. You've lost all crew and the ship.
@@JohnLewis-old Maybe... but I still haven't caused an interstellar incident, because I never crossed the border. It's a safe option that doesn't risk my ship or crew, yet still has a decent probability of success.
@@JohnLewis-old the issue with that was that they drifted, damaged into their zone. no fault. if they did attack the ship they lose negotiating power in the future, as command can bring that incident up any time, and cause future conflict.
Good solution, minimal risk of galactic war.
If ships appear, broadcast the treaty conditions that allow for unarmed emergency rescues near the border. If you can't find that section just send the law library of the federation in all known and unknown languages.
That's actually pretty good.
the kobayshi mauru is a perfectly balanced test with no exploits whatsoever
have engineering create a series of probes with transporter buffers in them. launch them in a line, and use them like a relay system to bring your ship into transporter range without crossing the border.
I've got a plan to beat the Koayashi Maru scenario. All I need is a few dilithium crystals, a lawn chair and some paper plates!
could you give more details?
And how many Kerbals?
The plan needs MOAR BOOSTERS!
and struts, don't forget about the struts!
And that borgs leg...
i love it when a plan comes together.
Found out from Mentour (Petter) from Mentour Aviation - that they actually do have something like this in Aviation, but don't normally fully go through to the very bitter "end" in the various tests Instead they will "Pause" the Simulator and Debrief as certain sections or conditions are Met. They call it "Resilience training"
and it is to improve and test how Pilots handle various situations and teach them how to not become overwhelmed emotionally. Interesting stuff. This explains why in the Hero Pilot stories we have had over the years as you listen to the Pilots they are always so level headed, years of training and experience.
Yeah i heard the same from other pilot channels. The rule is "no matter what is happening, don't stop flying". The moment you stop trying (flying), you lose.
@@Kirifairy Exactly, never give up. Same for driving a car too, too many people let go of the wheel - and that is worst thing they could do.
@@plasmaburndeath and oversteering is probably a main cause of rollovers, correcting too fast. don't let go, don't go nuts.
I'd be curious to try some trick with extending sheilds around the Kobayashi Maru, and then trying to, rapidly, tow it out of the neutral zone back to the federation side of the fence, where, hopefully, the hostile forces wont follow and the Kobayashi's crew could be rescued somewhat more sedately.
The downsides here, I think in at least one version of this test the warp core is going critical and there's a finite time limit to get the crew off before kaboom. This plan would clearly take a little time, and also put my own ship in close proximity to the Kobayashi, which could put my vessel in danger if there warp core blows. The other downside is with the shields extended like that, they'll be strained further. And finally, with the Kobayashi in tow like this our speed will be somewhat limited, meaning we're not likely to be able to simply leave the bad guys in our dust, but will instead likely be taking fire all the way to the edge of the zone. Oh, and finally, there is of course no definitive guarantee that the bad guys wont cross into federation space to pursue us... it would be a bad move for the long term political side of things if they did, but in the short term it'd be a real bad day for us.
When I first read of the test, I thought of a plan in which I had to ask for 5 volunteer shuttle pilots and 5 volunteer transporter operators. I would have the shuttle's transporter linked in series to the main ship, have them bridge the distance while maintaining a lock on the 10 volunteers for an emergency beam out. The shuttles wouldn't be big enough to start a war, and the worst that would happen (and being the no win situation - most likely) would be the loss of the shuttles, but not starting a war, and having evidence of malfeasance by the enemy by preventing a rescue.