Haydn String Quartet Nicknames
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Richard Atkinson discusses each Haydn string quartet that has a nickname, with musical examples. This is a fair use educational commentary that uses excerpts from the following recordings/performances:
Haydn Quartets:
Op. 1: Aeolian String Quartet
Op. 33: Apponyi Quartet
Op. 50, 55, and 64: Festetics Quartet
Op. 74: Alban Berg Quartet
Op. 76 and 103: Quatuor Mosaïques
Haydn Symphonies:
No. 83: Academy of St Martin in the Fields, Sir Neville Marriner
No. 6 and 73: The Academy of Ancient Music, Christopher Hogwood
No. 68: Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra, Nikolaus Harnoncourt
Haydn: "Der Greis" in A major (four-part song), Hob XXVc:5
Netherlands Chamber Choir
Mozart, String Quartet, K. 458
Quatuor Mosaïques
Mozart, String Quintet, K. 614
Hausmusik
Mozart, Overture to “Lo Sposo Deluso," K. 430
London Symphony Orchestra, Colin Davies
Leopold Mozart, Sinfonia da Caccia in G
Capella Istropolitana, Frantisek Vajnar
Beethoven, Symphony No. 3
Deutsche Kammerphilharmonie Bremen, Paavo Jarvi
Tchaikovsky, 1812 Overture
Berliner Philharmoniker, Claudio Abbado
Donkey noise:
• Black Jack the donkey ...
Sailor’s Hornpipe:
Richard Atkinson, Whistler
00:00 - Introduction
00:31 - Op. 1
05:19 - Op. 20
05:52 - Op. 33
14:17 - Op. 50
17:14 - Op. 55
20:00 - Op. 64
22:14 - Op. 74
24:17 - Op. 76
38:11 - Op. 77 and 103 - เพลง
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Richard also deserves a nickname, "the greatest fan of Haydn on the Earth"
If we could somehow ask Haydn himself about this, I imagine he would say, “Before God and as an honest man, Richard is the greatest fan known to me either in person or by name; he has taste, and furthermore the most profound knowledge of composition.”
@@henrystratmann807 Well, these Haydn videos are certainly "the fruit of a long and laborious endeavor," though Mozart's tribute was far more important than mine.
@@Richard.Atkinson
As indicated by all the positive comments you are receiving, rest assured that your endeavors are indeed appreciated. And while it would indeed be difficult to match Mozart's tribute, yours nonetheless represents a worthy effort.
@@henrystratmann807
A lovely and intelligent thread here, but as a slight aside, it’s actually quite interesting that Mozart’s beautiful and heartfelt dedication to Haydn was delivered in the Italian language rather than in German; this of course opens up all sorts of questions as to why this was the case, especially as post-Amadeus (along with one or two other slightly negative comments about Italians from Mozart), many today - if they thought about it - could be expected to question why two native German-speakers chose to comunicate in what was in effect their second language.
@@elaineblackhurst1509
An excellent observation!
My reflexive explanation is that Italian was at the time the dominant European language for music, not only among composers, singers, and players, but also the strata of society (e.g. the nobility and middle/upper non-noble classes) that formed its typical listeners/consumers. If Italian was not one of those individual's first language, it was likely to be their second (as it was for Mozart and Haydn), and so the most common lingua franca for both contemporary creators and "mere" enjoyers of music.
In particular, the dominance of Italian opera and other vocal music, in multiple senses that include originating in Italy, written by Italians, and/or written in Italian, contributed greatly to the usefulness of knowing that language. For example, the cantatas Haydn wrote c. 1763-4 to honor his princely patron could have been written in German, but instead they too used the more "universal" Italian.
Thus, by writing what would not only be a private but also a public dedication of those string quartets to Haydn in Italian, Mozart would have gotten his effusive words directly across to a wider audience than if he had chosen the less commonly used/spoken German. That would have the extra bonus of being good advertising not only for Haydn but also, by linking his own name to and proclaiming his admiration for that well-known, respected composer to as many people as possible, good marketing for Wolfgang and his own new musical masterpieces too.
3 minutes in and you’ve already gone on 3 tangents talking about just 1 quartet. Classic Richard Atkinson
Bookmarking funny pictures:
16:48 frog hops along to the music - I especially like how the frog magically becomes enlarged at the end of the descending scale
17:22 toast + Mr. Potato Head
21:05 Popeye the Sailor Man
22:22 24:24 Count von Count
25:28 mission accomplished
25:45 Quentin Tarantino
27:00 Donkey from Shrek
27:51 emperor penguin
28:52 Grand Master Richard Atkinson of the United Grand Lodge of Haydn Fanatics
Also, your excellent singing (12:01), whistling (21:20), and braying (27:06) :D
Ha! Thanks for cataloging all of this!
Also when speaking about op. 33 no. 2 there's a viola joke...
The "How do you do?" motif is also used in symphony no. 89's first movement
True! In the first few bars!
Aaaaaaah another big Haydn video.
Thank you, thank you Richard!
Fun fact, I, living in Germany, can assure that most germans don't know their anthem was written by an austrian for Austria, and not only that, some of the words of the german text don't really fit the rhythm of the melody, which leads most germans to think that the melody starts on the one: "Einigkeit"' and "Vaterland", just in the first sentence, have their natural accents on the third quarters of their respective measures...
39:54 if I don't know this is Haydn, I would say this is Schubert :D
I was having a stressful day, and your video was exactly the break I needed. You should see the smile I have now, I am feeling giddy, all thanks to Haydn, and your insightful (and witty) analysis!
Happy Haydn’s birthsday!
Many thanks for sharing this 🙏🏻
Lovely and hilarious as always!
Haydn is one of my favorite composer (surprisingly).
The joy, creativity and humor are so perfectly blended in his music ❤
You never told me this in our interview!
@@Richard.Atkinson my bad! Shall we go for another episode? 🤭
I think if we talked about music of Haydn and Brahms (my love) it would take us only like 7 hours, I guess..
This is fantastic! I'd love to see more like this where you take a segment of a composer's output and review it like this.
I used to do more videos like this (my first was "Most Beautiful Passages of Each Mahler Symphony") before I started focusing on single works.
@@Richard.Atkinson It really helps for people trying to get a better overview of the massive classical repertoire. Nicknames, or any other memory handle helps a lot. You could also do a chronological survey of all the overlapping quartets of Haydn, Mozart & Beethoven ... so many possibilities, but whatever you do, we'll watch it!
There's a passage in the development section of the Quinten that reminds me of the Bach double violin concerto!
I knew about some musical cryptograms in pieces by famous composers like the BACH motif in Die Kunst der Fuge, but I did not know about the Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser cryptogram in the Emperor Quartet by Haydn.
Thanks for the upload. I am also a big Haydn fan. Love his symphonies and quartets and also his piano trios. I am now trying to play his double variations in F moll. A mysterious and beautiful piece. I really appreciate your videos.
Those variations are amazing - especially the last one and coda!
Amazing video! Thank you for all your efforts!
This video is really fun, thanks for all the analysis in your videos!
Re the "Lark":
Lark songs are pretty famous for being 'musical' in some ways. There are many EuroAsian lark species that Hayden could have heard (even if only caged birds) that might have inspired the passage you highlighted.
In North America, it's often the wood thrush that scores highest among birdsong-that-sounds-like-music internet posts. But maybe my favorite birdsong these days comes from certain Carolina wrens. It isn't really musical, but it is certainly poetic:
Chirpity chirpity, chirpity chirpity
Chirpity chirpity, chirpity chirpity
Chirpity chirpity, chirpity chirpity
Chirpity, Chirpity, Chirp!
Always, a most enjoyable time well spent. Thank you, Richard!❤❤❤
30:29 I never knew about this musical cryptogram, that's so cool!
I also really like the endings of that quartet's mvmt. 2 (29:16) and "How Do You Do" mvmt. 1 (13:20)
This is amazing
great video
28:32 The inspiration from God save the King is pretty evident from the use of the secondary dominant in both.
What a wonderful survey of Haydn's string quartets!
Marvelous, absolutely marvelous… you both! 🌹🌹
25:05 I noticed that the Wikipedia article on Haydn Op. 76 quartets now talk about the No. 1 Quartet being nicknamed the "Jack-in-the-box" Quartet.
One of your most charming vids, Richard. Oink! Moo! Haha. Haydn would have been delighted.
I wonder about the popularity of Zaide had it been finished. "Ruhe sanft" is justly popular but "Tiger!" is equally great. Another g-minor Mozart explosion in a larger context similar to the Sonata K. 379 -- hardly known.
3/8 is a horse’s canter. Hence the “Hunt” label. Dedications to the aristocracy was generally done after the fact in order to gain either influence or $$$. Mostly they weren’t commissioned by the aristocracy, out of a few select Kappelmeisters and a few pet projects.
Another erudite, enlightening, educational, enjoyable, entertaining, and exceedingly excellent presentation! Thank you for all the time and effort you expended in creating this masterclass on the nicknamed Haydn string quartets.
I understand why you paid comparatively short shrift to Op. 1, 2, and 3, but I think they merit at least a brief list of "Fun Facts" for the benefits of your audience (I know you are already aware of all of them...)
1. Late in life, when given a list of early works attributed to him for confirmation that he wrote them, Haydn "verified" the Op. 3 works as his own. However, though the details are a bit too long to give here, in this case old age and an unreliable memory apparently made the "Father of the String Quartet" misidentify them as his musical children. Research from the early 1960s onward has now attributed at least some if not all of the six works of Op. 3 to one Roman Hofstetter, a contemporary composer whose only current claim to fame is being their proposed creator.
Two members of Op. 3 have nicknames. Op. 3, No. 3 in G Major is the "Bagpipe" quartet, named after the sound of its minuet. Op. 3, No. 5 in F Major is the famous "Serenade" quartet, so designated from its beautiful second movement, and still often attributed to Haydn in recordings whether he actually wrote it or not.
2. The "string quartets" of Op. 1 and Op. 2 are more commonly referred to these days as "quartet-divertimenti." As you note, those earliest (exact dates of their creation are uncertain, but possibly as far back as 1757-1761 or even before that) of his compositions for two violins, viola, and cello differ from those of Op. 9 onwards in multiple ways. In fact, Haydn himself considered the six works of Op. 9 to be the first containing "real" string quartets in the way he eventually understood/created the form.
3. One peculiarity of the ten quartet-divertimenti--Op. 1, Nos. 1-4 and 6; Op. 2, Nos. 1, 2, 4, and 6, and the "Op. 0" (a lone work not included in those other two groups)--is that they are all in five movements, rather than the four that Haydn used consistently in all later works (barring the incomplete Op. 103). The fast--minuet 1--slow--minuet 2--fast pattern of movements seen in eight of those ten works parallels a common pattern used for divertimenti at that time. That latter five-movement form was originally seen even in a much later work by Mozart, his Serenade No. 13 in G Major, K. 525, one of whose minuets has apparently been lost. (BTW, that piece has a little, dark nickname of its own...)
3. Also unlike Haydn's Op. 9 and beyond, the quartet-divertimenti were not created by him to form an official group of works. Rather, they were individual pieces compiled by outside publishers without Haydn's input or consent. Those shady dealings also meant stripping an early three-movement Haydn symphony, the unnumbered Hob. I:107, of its wind parts to make it "Op. 1, No. 5," as well as removing the horn parts from two of his early divertimenti/cassations to create "Op. 2, Nos. 3 and 5."
4. Finally, while none of those ten early quartet-divertimenti would ever be considered Great Works of Western Music, they are all delightful to listen to and appreciate in their own individual ways, even though all but one lacks a nickname. More importantly, they contain musical seeds of Haydn's compositional genius that would blossom into a kaleidoscopic series of masterworks beginning roughly a decade later as he, for all practical purposes, invented what became the quintessential chamber music form.
Thanks for this summary! There are also two additional "quartet-divertimenti," Hob III:D3, and Hob III:E2. The first of these actually has my favorite movement from any of these early non-quartet quartets: the opening theme and variations that has a surprise deceptive cadence not just to the flat six, but to a German 6+. It also has a crazy variation where the first violin plays extremely high harmonics while the other instruments accompany with pizzicato. Here's a recording: th-cam.com/video/1WJeK6ZeQIg/w-d-xo.html (crazy variation at 9:18)
I was originally planning to mention these in this video (mainly so I could play that specific variation), but the video was already too long and not everyone is as nerdy as we are.
@@Richard.Atkinson
Nerdy, yes, but only in the best, most sophisticated, piquant, and enjoyable sense of the term...
@@Richard.Atkinson
Thank you very much for bringing those two works to my attention! Despite all my rummaging over the years in the dustiest, most obscure corners of Haydn's oeuvre, I cannot remember listening to either of them before. And that long opening movement of Hob. III:D3 in particular is very interesting, even (as you note) crazy indeed at times in its musical adventurousness. When I get the chance I will have to do a little more research and gather more details about both works.
I've heard that the Minuet movement of the supposed "Piano Sonata no. 20 in Bb K 498a" is a piano arrangement of the original Minuet I of Eine Kleine Nachtmusik K 525. And almost definitely transposed too since it's in a Bb major sonata. It would have probably either been G, D, or C major when Mozart originally wrote it.
FYI the "Apponyi quartet" ensemble was/is "only" the first chairs of the Freiburger Barockorchester. So the musicians are still around and active but for whatever reason they only made this one Haydn recording (and another with Boccherini quartets, not sure if any more).
Has someone already edited wikipedia on op.76 #5 after this video...?
Great video Richard! I would like to propose a nickname for op 20. No 2. In the First movement, when the main theme arrives in minor in the development section, it is as if John Williams copied it straight from this moment. Therefore, I would like to call it “The Force”, after John Williams The Force Theme, or Skywalker Theme!
Great idea! I always thought of Star Wars in this moment!
Ha, I never noticed that, but you’re right!
Not sure about anyone else but I have the slightest inkling that Richard Atkinson may enjoy Haydn's music, somewhat.
That’s possible.
I hope when you got to Salzburg you ate at this place, which claims to have served Mozart, among others: St. Peter Stiftskulinarium is Salzburg, Austria claims that title, having served food since AD 803, making it the oldest restaurant in Europe, and by most measures, in the entire world. I hope it was good.
I’ll call the Opus 103 quartet the “Farewell Quartet” for it being the last one.
Both ‘Farewell’, and the pretty obviously ‘Unfinished’ have already been claimed.
Perhaps better - ‘Der Greis’ (in English ‘The old man’), or the ‘Gone is all my strength’ quartet.
When the quartet was published in 1803, at the end, the publisher Breitkopf & Hartel appended a copy of Haydn’s rather poignant calling card,* which printed the soprano part of his four-part part-song Der Greis.
The words read:
‘Gone is all my strength
Old and weak am I’
Any choice of words from the above would fit the torso of Opus 103 perfectly.
* You can search this easily enough, it really is quite touching, especially the copy in Haydn’s very shaky hand-writing when he adds a note about selling his piano shortly before he died.
Another "Hunt" piece that leaves me unconvinced about whether the name really fits, Beethoven's 18th piano sonata in Eb, the so called "Hunt" Sonata. I mean, I assume it's the ending 6/8 Presto that gave it the nickname, but is it really like a hunt? I don't know, I've heard some people say that the Presto of the Beethoven sonata is more of a tarantella than anything else.
Yes! The “Archaeopteryx” quartet, let’s make it happen people. But which one should it be?
Will you ever do an analysis on Tchaikovsky's sixth symphony? I have always waited for that video
I might at some point. Or a "most ____ passage of each Tchaikovsky symphony" type of video.
Another great video Richard!...can't wait for the upcoming deep dives into more of these excellent Haydn quartets, especially the D minor, one of my personal favorites...I have also always wondered why Beethoven seems to get sole credit for the Scherzo replacing the Minuet in multi-movement works. Perhaps because he used it more than Haydn, but he certainly didn't come up with the idea! Did Haydn use the Scherzo designation for any of his Symphonic movements??? It seems to me that Beethoven took more from Haydn's quartets than his symphonies in general, would you agree?
No symphonic movement by Haydn is marked Scherzo, but he did get the ‘Minuet’ up to Allegro molto as far apart as Symphony 28 (1765) and Symphony 94 (1791).
Haydn’s Minuet movements are extremely varied in spirit, something which many modern conductors who do not really understand the composer properly often get wrong when choosing an appropriate tempo for each one - each should be judged separately, and definitely not by having a fixed metronome number in mind for Allegretto, Allegro, or any other tempo indication.
In truth, it’s not always about the tempo, but the energy and shaping of the music within the tempo, again an area where not all conductors read it right; Karajan and Dorati in acclaimed sets of the symphonies from the1970’s and 1980’s often play the Minuets too slowly - sometimes ploddingly so - whilst some modern period groups in particular play them too quickly for the taste of some listeners.
Giovanni Antonini makes a convincing case in the on-going Haydn 2032 cycle for one-in-a-bar Minuets, though even here in a conductor who clearly understands the spirit of the music, it’s too rapid for some.
The Minuet movement of Beethoven’s Symphony 1 is curiously mis-labelled as such, even though it is a clear fast one-in-a-bar scherzo (search out Bernstein discussing this movement in a fascinating watch easily available on TH-cam); Mozart’s Minuets are markedly more relaxed, none getting beyond the Allegretto-type.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 Even Mozart's Symphony no. 40 Minuet movement brings up the question of "Is this really a Minuet?" I generally hear the 2 major sections of it interpreted extremely differently, with the "Minuet" section being interpreted at a fast 1 to the bar tempo, with hemiolas being accented, much like a Beethoven Scherzo, and the Trio section, while still being fast, not quite being 1 to the bar fast and clearly sounding like a Classical Era minuet in its lyricism and slower tempo(fast minuets at 140 BPM were a common thing in Mozart's time).
Overall, I'd say that because of that vast contrast between the Scherzo-like "Minuet" section and the clearly a Minuet Trio section, it's right on the edge, not really either, but having characteristics of both.
The Quinten motive reminds me of a part in the first movement of Beethoven's 5th symphony
Haha, I already have that in my notes for whenever I do that promised video. There’s an even better one in the coda of Bruckner’s 9th (mvt. 3). It’s the final motive in the symphony.
You mean, the horn call with that Bb Bb Bb, Eb, F, Bb from which the second theme(which is really just a reworking and elaboration of the motive from the first theme) is derived?
@@caterscarrots3407 No, I’m talking about the violins at letter Y (look at the score on IMSLP) at the end of the third movement. It’s the same fifths motif from the Haydn quartet.
@@Richard.Atkinson I see, I was actually replying to the OP about the part of Beethoven’s Fifth when I was asking about the horn call. I looked at Bruckner’s symphonies on IMSLP briefly a while back while making a spreadsheet of key relationships in sonatas, but I was mainly looking to see which key the slow movement/movements was/were in compared to the first movement and found tons of relationships from the closest(Dominant, Subdominant, Relative and Parallel keys) to the furthest away(Tritone axis). In both major and minor, so like I saw minor dominant and major supertonic just to name 2 in atypical qualities. I had just a few criteria for a piece to count as a data point, and those were:
1) it had to be from either the Classical or Romantic Eras, Baroque definition of a sonata is way too broad(basically any instrumental piece would count as a sonata under that definition) and 20th century would mean having to deal with polytonal and atonal sonatas.
2) It had to be in some variant of a sonata structure. It could be 2 movements, it could be 7 movements(found both of these in Mozart), it could be double function sonata form where the development section is simultaneously the second movement(Liszt), it could be a nocturne(Beethoven’s Notturno for Piano and Viola for instance), could be a serenade(Brahms, Mozart), as long as it had that multi-movement structure and wasn’t titled suite or otherwise looked like a suite, it counted as a sonata in my data set
3) Moderato or Tempo di Minuetto only counted as a slow movement if there was nothing slower
4) If the tempos were too close, i.e. Allegro, Allegretto, Allegro, or something similar I counted 0 slow movements(lots of 2 movement sonatas were like this), for Allegretto to count as a slow movement, one of the movements had to be at least Presto
5) With few exceptions, if the first movement was a slow movement, I didn’t count it as a data point at all, not same key, nothing(Moonlight Sonata for example, didn’t count it cause the only slow movement is the first movement)
6) For sonatas with 2 slow movements, I counted the sonata twice, once per movement
Papa Haydn ❤
Haydn’s father made cartwheels; his son Joseph was a great composer.
Great video as always, I have a question though, which do you like more, the opus 20 or the opus 33 quartets?
I think Op. 33 are greater. In general, each set is greater than the one that precedes it.
@@Richard.Atkinson
The three sets of six string quartets each encompassing Op. 9, Op. 17, and Op. 20 definitely support your idea of progressively increasing greatness. However, it seems to me that Op. 20 and Op. 33 are so different from each other that trying to say which is "greater" is the classic "apples and oranges" comparison, and ultimately fruitless (so to speak...)
The overall gestalt I get is that in Op. 20 Haydn creates very serious, complex music that predominately sounds very serious and complex. In contrast, in Op. 33 he presents very serious, complex music that by no means always sounds serious and complex, but is instead infused with tremendous wit, humor, and even slapstick--e.g. in Op. 33, No. 4, the work unfairly maligned (in my opinion) by the author of a famous book on "great" Haydn string quartets whom I am sure you know. Even the most overtly dark, grave member of Op. 33, the B minor quartet, begins with a witty musical misdirection--starting in D Major before ultimately establishing its relative minor as the tonic instead.
Yes, Op. 33 sounds more polished and fully "classical" than Op. 20, as well as demonstrating great progress in Haydn's skill at creating themes/melodies ideal for immediate "breaking up" and development (e.g. the opening movement of "The Joke.") However, the different advances and techniques he creates and emphasizes in each of those two sets are as striking as those between, say, the "Farewell" symphony and No. 88--two works so unlike each other that their prime point of commonality is simply that they are both works of tremendous genius.
In short, perhaps it might be better to think of Op. 33 not as necessarily greater than Op. 20, but consider the pair as two different sides of a single, shiny coin.
Your thoughts?
At a certain point, we can just say that greatness in art is subjective, but I think it’s nearly objective that Op. 76 is artistically more important than Op. 20. I’m just saying I think the same is true to a much smaller extent for Op. 33. And, as you know, I should be biased in the other direction, given my love for fugues.
@@Richard.Atkinson
One way of looking at Op. 20 is that it is the "Eroica-on-steroids" of Haydn's string quartet oeuvre. While Beethoven's 3rd certainly created a different direction for and expansion of the symphony as a genre, it was preceded by many masterpieces by both his former teacher and Mozart, who had already blazed their own myriad new paths well before him.
Conversely, Haydn's Op. 20 was essentially sui generis in overall quality and originality compared to its predecessors--either Haydn’s own earlier string quartets or those by worthy contemporaries such as Boccherini. And yet, Op. 20 was also in some ways a cul-de-sac. For example, once he had composed magnificent fugal finales using two, three, and four subjects, Haydn could have included similar fugues in latter works.
However, except for "completing" that earlier trio with one on a single subject (Op. 50, No. 4), rather than going "Bach to the future" and writing more strict fugues, Haydn instead “just” incorporated the fugal techniques and counterpoint he developed in Op. 20 into his compositional toolbox for use in latter works. Sometimes his contrapuntal passages are more obvious (e.g. the finale of Op. 42, or the minuet you cite from the "Razor"), sometimes more subtle (as you demonstrate in some of your other videos). Likewise, though Haydn would write great minor key works after Op. 20, Nos. 3 and 5, the latter two have a particular intensity and character unique to them.
The key point overall is that Haydn did not rest on his laurels after completing his milestone "Sun" quartets. Instead of overtly repeating himself in later works, he took what he had learned from writing Op. 20 and continuously added new innovations in subsequent string quartets--most immediately in Op. 33, where sophisticated wit and humor in particular make a stunning debut. Thus, from a certain (reasonable, I think) point of view, Op. 33 does, as you note, represent artistic progress over Op. 20, and in that sense is "greater."
Moreover, looked at holistically, Op. 33 had not only an obvious direct impact but an important indirect one on the history of the string quartet as a genre. While Op. 20 (as well as Op. 9 and Op. 17) surely helped inspire Mozart to write his six "Viennese" string quartets (K.168-173), Op. 33 was the spur for him to create those considerably more magnificent six "Haydn" quartets, and secondarily his final group of string quartets and quintets.
Finally, you will get no argument from me that Op. 76 is, in terms of artistic and historical importance, Haydn's "ultimate" set of six quartets. Perhaps, taking that opus as a whole, it is not too much of a stretch to consider it analogous to Beethoven's 9th as Haydn's apotheosis in the genre, with the 2 1/2 string quartets he was yet to write a fitting extension of that "magnum opus." Also, as with Mozart and those earlier sets of string quartets, Op. 76 was surely an inspiration and model for Beethoven's subsequent Op. 18.
And aren't we all lucky that, whenever they were written throughout his career, we have so many masterful Haydn string quartets to choose from--each with its own individual delights and genius?
Do you have any preferences towards the labels of the recordings you use in your videos in terms of avoiding copyright?
I am planning to make an analysis video in your style of Puccini's "La Boheme" but I am scared of putting several hours into a single video just so it will get taken down 2 days later...
(I love your channel btw)
I have that same anxiety, because technically any copyright owner from ANY of the many recordings I use in a single video can complain and force me to take down the video or mute the video during that portion (which would ruin it). Back in 2016 this was happening to me frequently, but I would always contest it as fair use and when they saw that I was not trying to get ad revenue and that they could claim my ad revenue, they would rescind their demand. Since then, I think most record labels have stopped worrying about my videos because they just claim them and make money off them. However, if you plan to make money from ads on your video, you'll likely face problems. I hope this helps.
I think there are 2 main reasons behind Beethoven getting the credit for placing the Scherzo in sonata-type pieces like string quartets. First reason is because most people in the general classical music listening public, in my experience know very little about Haydn and have only heard 1, maybe 2 pieces if any of his. Like the Surprise Symphony + maybe one of his concertos or piano sonatas. So they are very unlikely to know about any Scherzos Haydn wrote.
And the second reason is because Beethoven is seen as the rule breaker of the Classical era trifecta. Breaking counterpoint rules like no parallel octaves in fugues like his Grosse Fuge or the Hammerklavier finale, leaving the Minuet behind, writing the Scherzo in sonata form rather than Scherzo and Trio form(Ninth Symphony), hybridizing Theme and Variations with the Rondo(Seventh Symphony second movement), synthesizing sonata form and the fugue(Op. 111 Sonata), I could go on, but you get the point.
That said, Haydn was a rule bender and breaker long before Beethoven. I mean, in one of his major key multi-movement works, don't remember which one, he has a slow movement in the key of the Neapolitan! That would be like a Db major slow movement in a C major sonata. The Neapolitan wouldn't show up as the key of a slow movement of a sonata-type piece again(at least among well known composers) until Bruckner, who did it twice in a major key and 6 times in a minor key! That's quite the disparity from mid-Classical era to late Romantic to be seeing the Neapolitan key relation in a sonata structure in both composers.
The popular narratives surrounding famous composers are reductive at best, downright incorrect at worst. Beethoven was probably nowhere near as revolutionary as many people seem to think. Pleyel was using trombones in the symphony before him, to take just one example. Blending rondo with theme and variations had been done by both Haydn and Mozart. I don't think this makes Beethoven any less great as a composer, but some people can't seem to give up the idea that he was some completely original demiurge who altered or did away with everything that came before him.
Regarding the Neapolitan, you may be thinking of Haydn's final piano sonata, Hob. 52, which is in E-flat major and has a slow movement in E major.
@@thomasskoronski8625 Ah, yeah, that might be what I was thinking of, the Eb major sonata you mentioned.
And yeah, composers do often get credit for revolutions that aren’t really theirs just because their pieces with said revolution are much more well known, like trombones in the symphony and Beethoven’s Fifth. As you said, Beethoven wasn’t the first to use trombones in a symphony. And even before Pleyel’s symphonies, trombones did show up in the orchestra sometimes, especially in masses and operas. Bach used trombones in 3 of his cantatas before Mozart used trombones in his operas. And Mozart used trombones in his operas before Pleyel used them in his symphonies. And Pleyel used trombones in his symphonies over a decade before Beethoven even started writing his fifth symphony. And yet Beethoven and the Fifth Symphony often get the credit for introducing the trombones into the symphony and by extension, the orchestra.
@@thomasskoronski8625
An interesting post.
I’ve abandoned the use of the word ‘revolutionary’ in regards to Beethoven* in particular, but also to almost all composers, simply because most composers in fact are nothing of the sort if you think about it carefully.
I do however think that Beethoven evolved music radically, he was a radical evolutionist, but then so too were both Mozart and Haydn** before Beethoven, and composers like Berlioz with his Symphonie Fantastique (1830) a little later; complete the list at your leisure.
‘Revolutionary’ is good clickbait, ‘Radical evolutionary’ is not, but I think the latter more accurately describes what a number of the greatest composers actually did.
* So too have modern Beethoven biographers like Jan Swafford.
** Haydn’s Symphony 45 (1772) is the greatest work of cyclic integration and through-composition before Beethoven’s ‘revolutionary’ Symphony 5 (1808).
@@caterscarrots3407
You might find my reply above of some interest.
The "parallel 8ths" found in those fugues aren't parallel 8ths at all (at least from what I've seen), they're just doubling a voice at the octave, a common technique both in orchestral and chamber works. You can see them in some of Mozart's fugues as well (for instance the C minor or C major).
Here is a lesser known fact: the famous first musical sentence of Gott erhalte Franz den Kaiser is inspired by a very similar Crotian folk tune: "Ustal sam se v rano jutro" (I got up early in the morning), which is still quite popular among the Croatian minority in Burgenland (which they call Gradišće) around the town of Eisenstadt (Željezno) where Haydn spent a lot of time, since it was the Esterházy land. When I visited Haydn's tomb, I noticed a lot of people there spoke in a very peculiar, old-fashioned, Croatian dialect.
Nowadays, the folk tune has mutated to be even more similar to the anthem and it is almost always performed with the anthem's exact melody, even though the original was slightly less ornamented, had the first phrase repeat a third above, and didn't contain the Prinner melody (la sol fa mi), so typical of Haydn's style (instead it was: sol fa sol mi):
do . re mi re fa mi re do, mi . fa sol sol la sol fa mi, sol sol fa sol mi re
Here is the performance of the original version of the tune (which inspired Haydn):
th-cam.com/video/FI6nU3MzNvI/w-d-xo.html
Thanks for this! I should've included this in the video, but too late now!
Actually, I should do another video about all the Haydn themes that likely come from known folk songs (often Croatian), like for example, "Oj, Jelena, Jelena, jabuka zelena"
@@Richard.Atkinson Ah yes, the "London" symphony! 💚 I love that one, too -- the entire symphony, but especially the last movement. What he does with this simple tune is just amazing...
@@Richard.Atkinson
Speaking of Haydn’s use of folk songs in his music, let us not forget the one he used more times than any other-according to one article I found, in no less than 7 works he wrote during the 1760s and 1770s. It is “The Night Watchman’s Song,” used (for example) in the eighth movement of his clarinet-containing Cassation in C Major, Hob. II:17 (c. 1761), but known these days more from him briefly quoting it in the sixth movement of Symphony No. 60.
I knew about this already cause I saw Musica Universalis' video on Haydn and Folk Music. He also mentioned Hungarian folk music and the Gypsy Rondo in that video and I can't help but notice a resemblance between the Gypsy Rondo and Beethoven's Scherzos.
This is a stupid question I’m sure, but you seem to really really like counterpoint. What is it you like so much about it, and do you like any music without counterpoint?
I don't know what I like so much about it, other than the beauty of fine craftsmanship. But there's plenty of very simple music that I also enjoy, even by these same composers.
Thank you - The Thoughtful Entertainer strikes again - but, please - where is ”The Call for Action”?
Did you watch the update in this video?
Haydn!
That was an ending I was not expecting
@@Godzilla-xt4nd Why?
@@Richard.Atkinson I don't know, the song + the trio ending made for an almost bittersweet ending, at least to me. Very good video though!
@@Godzilla-xt4nd I’m very bitter that he didn’t finish Op. 103, but it’s not quite as sad as Mozart dying at 35!
@@Richard.Atkinson I would agree with that. Mozart was just starting to mature as a composer when he died. And his style started to lean more and more towards what Beethoven would do years later. Can you just imagine what might have happened if Mozart lived as long as Haydn or even just as long as Beethoven? Mozart seeing the premiere of most of the Beethoven symphonies, more dramatic operas, variations on themes that Beethoven wrote, much like how Beethoven wrote several sets of variations based on themes Mozart wrote, more fugues, he'd likely be serious competition with Beethoven, but probably still have a hold on opera that Beethoven never really did(he wrote 1 opera, Fidelio, and the overture went through revision after revision for over a decade). But for symphonies, sonatas, and such, it'd likely be serious competition between Mozart and Beethoven. If Mozart lived into his 50s or 70s that is. If he lived into his 70s like Haydn did, he'd be alive when Chopin was born.
You're a chad!
Which would you say are (nearly objectively) Shostakovich greatest symphonies?
My favorite is No. 10, and I think a lot of people agree with me about that. But after that, my favorites are 1, 4, 9, and 14 - all the ones everyone ignores.
@@Richard.Atkinson Thanks. Listened to the first and fourteenth (had heard the others before) because of this. What about his greatest string quartets?
@@mirrormoonknight856 My favorite quartets are: 3, 5, 7, 8, 9, and 10.
As a person with perfect pitch, I don't really like it when you play the quartets at baroque pitch.
Second to this, every time the pitch doesn't match up fucks me up. Especially during the galloping passage, where the previous part sounds one semitone lower than the written score but the later part the same pitch as it
Use it as an opportunity to train relative pitch perception (a much more useful thing to have).