I know this isn't your first foray into Mozart's string quartets, but I certainly wouldn't mind more... his chamber music really is amongst his best work and that is saying a lot.
I once went to a composition masterclass where the person leading the workshop warned against introducing new one-time melodies or counter melodies in the coda. In his defence, the student composers had not mastered the craft nearly as well as Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven. I think the teacher was really concerned about making sure the material fits in with the rest of the composition, which these composers do skillfully here.
Maybe I missed something, but I feel like you should do a video covering Beethoven’s late piano sonatas. There is endless musical depth in all these pieces.
5:12 Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I already thought the finale would end quietly and build gradually towards the beginning, and here was such a surprise!
Excellent analysis, as always. I think that the 16th string quartet is Mozart's true "dissonance quartet". It is quite peculiar when compared to the other quartets, it is harmonically adventurous and has some bizarre moments - for example the opening of the first movement.
One of my favorite one-time countermelodies appears at the violin in the recapitulation of the first theme in Mendelssohn 1st piano trio mvt 1. The cello theme becomes a sublime duo with the violin during a few bars.
I have just realized that this Mozart theme from the Piano quartet in G minor, that you have showed here 1:47 , is almost exactly the same as a theme that appears in the middle of the third movement of Mozarts Clarinet Trio K.498 (Kegelstatt)
That part in the Waldstein sonata has to be my favourite crescendo in all of Beethoven's music. So satisfying. Edit: One could argue that the countermelody in that part derives from the second theme of the sonata since it's a downward diatonic scale, too.
To my shame, i hadn't heard the Haydn Quartet in E-flat untul watching this video, but I can already intuit, it will soon become one of my favorite chamber pieces. Thank you, Richard for your whimsically diverse, creative freedom!
The 68* string quartets of Haydn written over a period of about half a century are one of the absolute pinnacles or monuments if you like of Western classical music. From Opus 20 going forward, they are almost all masterpieces (Hans Keller notoriously omits Opus 33 No 4 from his ‘The Great Haydn Quartets’), and of the earlier works - the ten divertimenti a quattro (Opus 0, 1, and 2), Opus 9, and Opus 17 - even they bear repeated listening as they contain real treasure as well. * Excluding of course the spurious Opus 3 which is *not* by Haydn, and much of which sound like copycat second-rate Haydn at best; the famous sugary-sweet (but popular) ‘Serenade’ from ‘Opus 3 No 5’ actually sounds nothing like anything Haydn ever wrote in his life.
First thing I first thought of where I saw the title of the video : Intermezzo of the op 13 in A minor from mendelssohn, when the A section comes again for the 2nd time, pure beauty
Great video as always. The rhythmic ambiguity of the opening of that op. 64 movement recalls the opening of the 1st movement of Symphony 28, also in 3/4 but easy to hear in 6/8. Most conductors actually do articulate it as though it really is in 6/8 (which causes some strange accents in e.g. mm. 6 and 8) but it can be consistently done in 3/4 -- in some ways, it's a whole different piece of music. Along with its other fine elements it's a masterpiece in walking a tightrope between the two meters, such that either one can be heard as entirely valid.
My favorite of these is from the Mendelssohn Octet. At the end of the first movement, the violin sweeps into this absolutely glorious one-time melody that sounds almost deux-ex-machina, like a voice saying, "Don't worry, you're through the hard part, you'll be fine now, everything is going to be okay." That first movement of the Octet is simply one of my favorite pieces of music...ever. Iona Brown and the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields playing it on a Philips CD was the very first CD I ever got back in 1997. :) Thank you again for your extraordinary work.
Countermelodies are often born out of a specifc textural situation. I recently wrote a peice for choir and orchestra and in one passage for the basses and tenors in octaves with the rest playing and singing supportive harmonies in long note values I wanted to have an oboe on top of that and because of the movement of the bass melody a motive in contrary motion felt appropriate and violá - a countermelody revaeled itself. I think it is similar in these cases here in video - and often partly in contrary motion (which connect the new melody with the other one harmonically and motive wise and I think this is one reason that we often feel that these melodies belong there even if they only occur there. The character of the countermelody and how that fits in in the over -all form and structue also plays a role, of course.) Whether we like melodies that do not reoccur is of course a matter of of taste. I think that when it is well done and just feels right such moments can shine like a diamond. If we are dealing with a movement that is to a very large extent monothematic it can also be a welcome releive to allow yourself some material freedom for a while and even Beethoven does that sometimes.
I know this channel is about the technical side of composing (and I really enjoy that) but I would also be happy with a selection of just 'most inspired moments' in music. Those moments where the composer suddenly finds a melody or twist that seems special even when it is no clear why (sometimes it seems just luck, for instance that the minor version of a melody turns out so well).
The second appearance by that magnificent K. 478 quartet on this channel! Also, I managed to spot the 5-5-3-1 calling card in both its first and third movements.
I also love the "new" theme marked green in the K478 g minor quartet. It's actually not entirely new, but also contains a rhythmic variation of the opening theme. If you count right from the sforzando note you highlighted, it's identical to the rhythm of the opening phrase and very close to its melody contour. It completely changed the way I hear it after I discovered it. The subsequent theme is also built on the falling fourth of the opening theme, with two repeated lower notes after a decoration of the first note, immediately followed by an inversion in two dimensions in the next bar. The closing theme is an augmentation of the response argument on piano in the opening theme. It was initially disguised as the the first appearance on violin did not have the octave leap before the descending scale, but it was explicitly hinted on the piano and became clear when piano used that to start its own complete melody. Probably in these sense it can be considered as monothematic?
Absolutely wonderful. Particularly enjoyed the Beethoven excerpt, Waldstein is one of my favorite of his sonatas, and the final Haydn piece. Thanks a lot!
Brilliant video, I loved that you included a Beethoven Sonata and would love to see more of them in future vids, specially Waldstein sonata is just wonderful stuff!
I'm no expert on the topic but the first (only) example that comes to mind is from the first movement of Beethoven 5 -- the oboe counter-melody and brief solo that marks the recapitulation.
Of Haydn’s 68 string quartets, of the 46 from Opus 20 going forward, every one is a masterpiece (though Hans Keller notoriously omitted Opus 33 No 4 from his list of ‘great’ quartets). Additionally, one must add the Opus 9 No 4, and Opus 17 No 3 - the two minor key quartets from each set - to the list bringing it up to 48 as an absolute minimum. The remaining five from Opus 9, and five from Opus 17 are better than normally credited: Opus 17 for example found its way into the Salzburg music library where Mozart no less annotated Nos 2, 4, and 6 with performance markings, and clearly both studied and learned from them - so might we. The remaining ten very early quartets of Opera 0, 1, and 2 bear repeated listening and are astonishingly prescient works. In short, Haydn wrote 68 string quartets,* and there is not a single dud amongst them, indeed, they represent collectively one of the absolute pinnacles of Western classical music. * Excluding of course the nonsense of ‘Opus 3’ (which including the most un-Haydnesque melody ever not composed by Haydn in the famous ‘Serenade’ from Opus 3 No. 5), and the string quartet arrangement of the Seven Last Words (Opus 51) which account for some non-specialists adding up to Haydn’s string quartets to a number any other than 68.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 That Hans Keller book is full of silly assertions, but that omission is one of the strangest things about it. And also the seemingly random inclusion of Op. 9 No. 4 while omitting all of Op. 17 (most of which are much greater than any of the Op. 9 quartets, including No. 4).
I think there is a practice to have such countermelodies (accompanying main themes) in sonata form reprises (or sometimes codas that start like another reprise). IIRC there are gorgeous examples in the 1st mvmts of Schubert D 887 quartet and Bruckner's 7th symphony.
Another great music video. I listened today to the 2 piano quartets and piano quintet of Mozart. I cannot pick one favourite, they are all perfect. Luckily I don't have to pick, I have them all. Thanks for your great work, greetings from Holland.
What a delightful video! Thank you for this. It made me think about one-time-only dazzingly beautiful themes (like the one at the beginning of Beethoven’s Op. 78, or the 10-bar long theme at the ending of Brahms’ Op. 10 No. 4-I believe it started on bar 115 or 116). Do you have any favorites? Also, as somebody who loves your channel and who has been faithful to it for years already (I first got to know it when you posted your video about the finale of Mozart’s Jupiter), I must say that, now more than ever, I miss the presence of female composer’s here. Do you know the piano pieces of Hélène de Montgeroult, who composed in the decade of 1790 music that sometimes sounded like Debussy, or like Mendelssohn, Schumann? (The level of the recordings really is a problem here, since most of them are pretty bad. But I would listen to Luca Chiantore or Clare Hammond.) Or, for instance, the choral works of Lili Boulanger-there is SO MUCH there to be explored. Thank you so much for your wonderful channel!
My composition professor in my Master's program criticized a work of mine because it had a short section with an unrelated theme. But he was wrong. It's rhythm was the crux of the whole piece, where the piece transitioned from the first major theme to the second one. It just shows you that professional composers are not so hot after all.
Check out the totally unexpected D major second subject or interlude that is delayed, and appears for the first time in the *development* rather than normal exposition of the first movement of Haydn’s f# minor Symphony 45 (‘Farewell’). This astonishing and radical innovation of 1772 by Haydn, if it had been done by Beethoven 30 years later would have been cited as ‘revolutionary’.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I have a rough draft for a video about the numerous compositional innovations of Haydn that history gave Beethoven credit for even though Haydn's music was alway available to all these lazy musicologists.
@@Richard.Atkinson That will be yet another fantastic video to which myself and many others will look forward to with great anticipation; the quality of your carefully researched and brilliantly presented videos are appreciated worldwide - deservedly so - and it must be very gratifying to have your hard work and insightful productions acknowledged as such. As has been noted by others, Beethoven’s debt to Haydn was greater than he could ever bring himself to acknowledge properly. Whilst he then went on to do his own thing, Haydn definitely posed questions for Beethoven which both challenged and stimulated him, and to which he responded; Mozart in contrast tended to provide answers.
Superb content as ever; thought provoking but accessible, coherent and beautifully presented. One of the great frustrations regarding the relationship between Mozart and Haydn, and then Haydn and Beethoven, is that we know so little about what they actually talked about when together* - Mozart and Haydn between c.1784 and 1790 (the latter’s departure for England), and Haydn and Beethoven briefly in 1790 in Bonn, 1792-93 outside the counterpoint lessons and particularly whilst Beethoven was at Eisenstadt with Haydn during part of 1793, and then whilst the pair were together after Haydn’s return from London in August 1795.** I think it very plausible that firstly, Mozart and Haydn would have discussed exactly the sort of content that Richard has presented here (and elsewhere), and it’s inconceivable that secondly, Beethoven would not have discussed with Haydn both free composition, and Mozart as a composer when they were together. Many thanks for a brilliant quarter of an hour that will be much appreciated all around the world by those lucky enough to be subscribed, or come across it by chance. * The biographies of all three composers are notoriously thin on this subject, and all retail essentially the same few titbits. ** Too dominated of course by the misunderstandings over the c minor trio (Opus 1 No 3), Beethoven’s derogatory comments about the Haydn’s counterpoint lessons, and the refusal to add ‘Pupil of Haydn’ to the dedication of the Opus 2 piano sonatas.
That's because 95% of the time Mozart and his family makes mention of the name "Haydn", they mean Michael, not Joseph. (Just read them for goodness' sake.) Mozart actually praises Michael and Adlgasser as excellent contrapuntists (in a letter in 1777 to Padre Martini), and he played MH 187, MH 189 string quintets, but never makes any mention of Joseph's prowess as a composer. Mozart was always interested in Michael's graduals and fugues. There's no evidence he was ever interested in any of Joseph's compositions. Joseph Haydn wasn't the inventor of motivic/contrapuntal workings in the string quartet. Franz Xaver Richter (with his Op.5 quartets) deserves that title. Probably no other composer is more exaggerated as an inventor and influencer than Joseph Haydn. I'll make videos about this some day. Also, I hate to say it Joseph Haydn's harmony is quite tame in comparison (see the wikipedia page "tone clusters", and the superiority of Michael 's harmonic depth. Also, btw, the use of non-chord tones in Op.64 No.6 is quite tame. (Berlioz, Clara Schumann, Liszt thought so about Joseph.) Compare it with the harmony of the adagio from MH 367. Schubert wept in his visit to Michael's grave. No wonder why.
Heck even Franz Ignaz von Beecke (1733-1803) is less tamer than Joseph Haydn. String Quartet in C major (cir. 1780) with its dissonant slow introduction. "Benevolent satisfaction" is a correct description for all of Joseph Haydn's slow movements, (as Berlioz described them).
Mozart's calling card is Alberti Bass, and how he frequently opens with a half theme that modulates in call and response with a rhythmic sequence, but which doesn't resolve to the tonic, so the listener expects to hear more, and then followed by a regular modulating sequence after the theme, which then changes into a florid section with faster notes, which then leads to a cadence, then the theme or a counter theme appears and is developed. This is distinctive from other Classical era composers, who likewise have their own stylistic habits. This also is for the faster and more popular movements. Slow movements are different, and fast movements also vary. Not all classical era composers used lots of Alberti Bass. Boccherini didn't buse it much, and Boccherini's leading parts are also much more free form and rhythmically unpredictable than Mozart. To many people, this means his music is not as immediately catchy, but catchy or popular is not the same thing as high quality, otherwise, top 40 pop music would then be better than Mozart or any other Classical composer.
YES! :D Love these examples and your analysis Re: The Beethoven repeating the opening phrase in Bb. It definitely feels that way to the ears when the chord first appears, but I always think that it "reveals" itself to be IV of IV by the end of the phrase (via a C4/2 to G(6). Similarly the opening idea has the V(4/2) of V(6) at the end of its phrase and the same phenomenon occurs in the faster 16th note roiling version of the theme (now transposed up to D minor) "revealing" itself to be iv/vi as we modulate towards (of all keys) E Major for the 2nd theme. And my god, that ingenious coda; my god, what a bitch it is to play xD
@@Richard.Atkinson Totally agreed! I thrive in these types of ambiguities, so I got all excited when you used this example (even if for a different purpose) 🤓
@@zhihuangxu6551 Oh gosh, yes... are the octave glisses in the finale even possible on a modern instrument? (Excluding pianists with exceptionally large hands)
Thank you for this very interesting video on countermelodies. Actually I have not composed many my self, but in this piece actually you have two countermelodies playing along with the main theme. Whisc is actually is the second theme in this piece. First you hear it with the first countermeloy which is sung by a choir and. BUT! Second time the second theme appears with the same countermelody sung by the choir and dubbled with the trumpets a THIRD countermelody appears after four bars played by the horns. I am very proud of this since creating countermeldy is not only to get the counterpoint right, but each melody much work as individual melodies musically as well...have a listen...it is school orchestra , but you will spot it anyway..;) th-cam.com/video/c9X5-9FW1_M/w-d-xo.html
Every Mozart’s, Haydn’s and Beethoven’s video is a master class of music composition.
That last one given is so sublime
I love how I would have never asked for this, and yet it's exactly what I needed. You are a brilliant creator of content
If anyone else on this planet requested a video with this title, I'd start to question my own sanity!
I know this isn't your first foray into Mozart's string quartets, but I certainly wouldn't mind more... his chamber music really is amongst his best work and that is saying a lot.
That Op. 64 slow movement is one of the most touching and lovely things Haydn ever wrote.
I once went to a composition masterclass where the person leading the workshop warned against introducing new one-time melodies or counter melodies in the coda. In his defence, the student composers had not mastered the craft nearly as well as Mozart, Haydn, and Beethoven. I think the teacher was really concerned about making sure the material fits in with the rest of the composition, which these composers do skillfully here.
Maybe I missed something, but I feel like you should do a video covering Beethoven’s late piano sonatas. There is endless musical depth in all these pieces.
For me the first violin line in Op. 77 No. 2 3rd mvt, when the second violin plays the theme, is a true highlight
5:12 Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I already thought the finale would end quietly and build gradually towards the beginning, and here was such a surprise!
Mozart piano quartet in G minor is such an overlooked masterpiece. Great video as always.
Excellent analysis, as always. I think that the 16th string quartet is Mozart's true "dissonance quartet". It is quite peculiar when compared to the other quartets, it is harmonically adventurous and has some bizarre moments - for example the opening of the first movement.
Yeah, there are so many "wrong" notes in every movement.
One of my favorite one-time countermelodies appears at the violin in the recapitulation of the first theme in Mendelssohn 1st piano trio mvt 1. The cello theme becomes a sublime duo with the violin during a few bars.
I’m always think about the special uniqueness of one-time counterpoint melodies. This video confirms my feelings about that. Thank you!
YES WHEN THE WORLD NEEDED HIM THE MOST THE LEGEND IS HERE
I have just realized that this Mozart theme from the Piano quartet in G minor, that you have showed here 1:47 , is almost exactly the same as a theme that appears in the middle of the third movement of Mozarts Clarinet Trio K.498 (Kegelstatt)
Yes, I should’ve mentioned that! I like the quartet version is so much better just because of the weird syncopation.
That part in the Waldstein sonata has to be my favourite crescendo in all of Beethoven's music. So satisfying.
Edit: One could argue that the countermelody in that part derives from the second theme of the sonata since it's a downward diatonic scale, too.
Mozart's melodies are so effortless...
To my shame, i hadn't heard the Haydn Quartet in E-flat untul watching this video, but I can already intuit, it will soon become one of my favorite chamber pieces. Thank you, Richard for your whimsically diverse, creative freedom!
The 68* string quartets of Haydn written over a period of about half a century are one of the absolute pinnacles or monuments if you like of Western classical music.
From Opus 20 going forward, they are almost all masterpieces (Hans Keller notoriously omits Opus 33 No 4 from his ‘The Great Haydn Quartets’), and of the earlier works - the ten divertimenti a quattro (Opus 0, 1, and 2), Opus 9, and Opus 17 - even they bear repeated listening as they contain real treasure as well.
* Excluding of course the spurious Opus 3 which is *not* by Haydn, and much of which sound like copycat second-rate Haydn at best; the famous sugary-sweet (but popular) ‘Serenade’ from ‘Opus 3 No 5’ actually sounds nothing like anything Haydn ever wrote in his life.
Op 64 no 6 do be one of the very best
First thing I first thought of where I saw the title of the video : Intermezzo of the op 13 in A minor from mendelssohn, when the A section comes again for the 2nd time, pure beauty
Great video as always. The rhythmic ambiguity of the opening of that op. 64 movement recalls the opening of the 1st movement of Symphony 28, also in 3/4 but easy to hear in 6/8. Most conductors actually do articulate it as though it really is in 6/8 (which causes some strange accents in e.g. mm. 6 and 8) but it can be consistently done in 3/4 -- in some ways, it's a whole different piece of music. Along with its other fine elements it's a masterpiece in walking a tightrope between the two meters, such that either one can be heard as entirely valid.
My favorite of these is from the Mendelssohn Octet. At the end of the first movement, the violin sweeps into this absolutely glorious one-time melody that sounds almost deux-ex-machina, like a voice saying, "Don't worry, you're through the hard part, you'll be fine now, everything is going to be okay."
That first movement of the Octet is simply one of my favorite pieces of music...ever. Iona Brown and the Academy of St. Martin-in-the-Fields playing it on a Philips CD was the very first CD I ever got back in 1997. :)
Thank you again for your extraordinary work.
Countermelodies are often born out of a specifc textural situation. I recently wrote a peice for choir and orchestra and in one passage for the basses and tenors in octaves with the rest playing and singing supportive harmonies in long note values I wanted to have an oboe on top of that and because of the movement of the bass melody a motive in contrary motion felt appropriate and violá - a countermelody revaeled itself. I think it is similar in these cases here in video - and often partly in contrary motion (which connect the new melody with the other one harmonically and motive wise and I think this is one reason that we often feel that these melodies belong there even if they only occur there. The character of the countermelody and how that fits in in the over -all form and structue also plays a role, of course.)
Whether we like melodies that do not reoccur is of course a matter of of taste. I think that when it is well done and just feels right such moments can shine like a diamond. If we are dealing with a movement that is to a very large extent monothematic it can also be a welcome releive to allow yourself some material freedom for a while and even Beethoven does that sometimes.
I know this channel is about the technical side of composing (and I really enjoy that) but I would also be happy with a selection of just 'most inspired moments' in music. Those moments where the composer suddenly finds a melody or twist that seems special even when it is no clear why (sometimes it seems just luck, for instance that the minor version of a melody turns out so well).
Most beautiful, many thanks!
Greetings Andreas
The second appearance by that magnificent K. 478 quartet on this channel! Also, I managed to spot the 5-5-3-1 calling card in both its first and third movements.
I also love the "new" theme marked green in the K478 g minor quartet. It's actually not entirely new, but also contains a rhythmic variation of the opening theme. If you count right from the sforzando note you highlighted, it's identical to the rhythm of the opening phrase and very close to its melody contour. It completely changed the way I hear it after I discovered it. The subsequent theme is also built on the falling fourth of the opening theme, with two repeated lower notes after a decoration of the first note, immediately followed by an inversion in two dimensions in the next bar. The closing theme is an augmentation of the response argument on piano in the opening theme. It was initially disguised as the the first appearance on violin did not have the octave leap before the descending scale, but it was explicitly hinted on the piano and became clear when piano used that to start its own complete melody. Probably in these sense it can be considered as monothematic?
Absolutely wonderful. Particularly enjoyed the Beethoven excerpt, Waldstein is one of my favorite of his sonatas, and the final Haydn piece. Thanks a lot!
Brilliant video, I loved that you included a Beethoven Sonata and would love to see more of them in future vids, specially Waldstein sonata is just wonderful stuff!
I'm no expert on the topic but the first (only) example that comes to mind is from the first movement of Beethoven 5 -- the oboe counter-melody and brief solo that marks the recapitulation.
6:10 well one could argue this is the 2nd theme actually
True!
Haydn really has so many really great quartet slow movements. it shouldn't be a surprise, given at least 40 great quartets
Of Haydn’s 68 string quartets, of the 46 from Opus 20 going forward, every one is a masterpiece (though Hans Keller notoriously omitted Opus 33 No 4 from his list of ‘great’ quartets).
Additionally, one must add the Opus 9 No 4, and Opus 17 No 3 - the two minor key quartets from each set - to the list bringing it up to 48 as an absolute minimum.
The remaining five from Opus 9, and five from Opus 17 are better than normally credited: Opus 17 for example found its way into the Salzburg music library where Mozart no less annotated Nos 2, 4, and 6 with performance markings, and clearly both studied and learned from them - so might we.
The remaining ten very early quartets of Opera 0, 1, and 2 bear repeated listening and are astonishingly prescient works.
In short, Haydn wrote 68 string quartets,* and there is not a single dud amongst them, indeed, they represent collectively one of the absolute pinnacles of Western classical music.
* Excluding of course the nonsense of ‘Opus 3’ (which including the most un-Haydnesque melody ever not composed by Haydn in the famous ‘Serenade’ from Opus 3 No. 5), and the string quartet arrangement of the Seven Last Words (Opus 51) which account for some non-specialists adding up to Haydn’s string quartets to a number any other than 68.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 That Hans Keller book is full of silly assertions, but that omission is one of the strangest things about it. And also the seemingly random inclusion of Op. 9 No. 4 while omitting all of Op. 17 (most of which are much greater than any of the Op. 9 quartets, including No. 4).
@@Richard.Atkinson
Agree with that completely; Keller is a bit like Schumann’s music criticism, either acutely perceptive or absolute nonsense.
For the first example, I would say that the theme has a strong resembleance to the underlying theme. They look as mirroring each other.
True - the first half is nearly the same (in contrary motion), but the second half is completely different.
I think there is a practice to have such countermelodies (accompanying main themes) in sonata form reprises (or sometimes codas that start like another reprise). IIRC there are gorgeous examples in the 1st mvmts of Schubert D 887 quartet and Bruckner's 7th symphony.
It’s a good way of providing contrast the second time.
Unusual topic but enjoyed this very much thanks 😊.
Another great music video. I listened today to the 2 piano quartets and piano quintet of Mozart. I cannot pick one favourite, they are all perfect. Luckily I don't have to pick, I have them all. Thanks for your great work, greetings from Holland.
Both are nearly equally amazing masterpieces.
5:09 dang these Wikipedia analyses are coming for your job with deep insight like that 🤯
A surprise to be sure, but a welcome one! (much like one-time-only countermelodies)
Mendelssohn clearly learned this technique from Mozart and Haydn. See the gorgeous violin counter melody at the recapitulation of his D minor trio.
We could not have asked for a better palate cleanser.
What a delightful video! Thank you for this. It made me think about one-time-only dazzingly beautiful themes (like the one at the beginning of Beethoven’s Op. 78, or the 10-bar long theme at the ending of Brahms’ Op. 10 No. 4-I believe it started on bar 115 or 116). Do you have any favorites?
Also, as somebody who loves your channel and who has been faithful to it for years already (I first got to know it when you posted your video about the finale of Mozart’s Jupiter), I must say that, now more than ever, I miss the presence of female composer’s here. Do you know the piano pieces of Hélène de Montgeroult, who composed in the decade of 1790 music that sometimes sounded like Debussy, or like Mendelssohn, Schumann? (The level of the recordings really is a problem here, since most of them are pretty bad. But I would listen to Luca Chiantore or Clare Hammond.) Or, for instance, the choral works of Lili Boulanger-there is SO MUCH there to be explored.
Thank you so much for your wonderful channel!
I am once again requesting ....
That you do some Josquin
My composition professor in my Master's program criticized a work of mine because it had a short section with an unrelated theme. But he was wrong. It's rhythm was the crux of the whole piece, where the piece transitioned from the first major theme to the second one. It just shows you that professional composers are not so hot after all.
Check out the totally unexpected D major second subject or interlude that is delayed, and appears for the first time in the *development* rather than normal exposition of the first movement of Haydn’s f# minor Symphony 45 (‘Farewell’).
This astonishing and radical innovation of 1772 by Haydn, if it had been done by Beethoven 30 years later would have been cited as ‘revolutionary’.
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I see what you mean. It is rather extraordinary!
@@elaineblackhurst1509 I have a rough draft for a video about the numerous compositional innovations of Haydn that history gave Beethoven credit for even though Haydn's music was alway available to all these lazy musicologists.
@@Richard.Atkinson
That will be yet another fantastic video to which myself and many others will look forward to with great anticipation; the quality of your carefully researched and brilliantly presented videos are appreciated worldwide - deservedly so - and it must be very gratifying to have your hard work and insightful productions acknowledged as such.
As has been noted by others, Beethoven’s debt to Haydn was greater than he could ever bring himself to acknowledge properly.
Whilst he then went on to do his own thing, Haydn definitely posed questions for Beethoven which both challenged and stimulated him, and to which he responded; Mozart in contrast tended to provide answers.
Superb content as ever; thought provoking but accessible, coherent and beautifully presented.
One of the great frustrations regarding the relationship between Mozart and Haydn, and then Haydn and Beethoven, is that we know so little about what they actually talked about when together* - Mozart and Haydn between c.1784 and 1790 (the latter’s departure for England), and Haydn and Beethoven briefly in 1790 in Bonn, 1792-93 outside the counterpoint lessons and particularly whilst Beethoven was at Eisenstadt with Haydn during part of 1793, and then whilst the pair were together after Haydn’s return from London in August 1795.**
I think it very plausible that firstly, Mozart and Haydn would have discussed exactly the sort of content that Richard has presented here (and elsewhere), and it’s inconceivable that secondly, Beethoven would not have discussed with Haydn both free composition, and Mozart as a composer when they were together.
Many thanks for a brilliant quarter of an hour that will be much appreciated all around the world by those lucky enough to be subscribed, or come across it by chance.
* The biographies of all three composers are notoriously thin on this subject, and all retail essentially the same few titbits.
** Too dominated of course by the misunderstandings over the c minor trio (Opus 1 No 3), Beethoven’s derogatory comments about the Haydn’s counterpoint lessons, and the refusal to add ‘Pupil of Haydn’ to the dedication of the Opus 2 piano sonatas.
That's because 95% of the time Mozart and his family makes mention of the name "Haydn", they mean Michael, not Joseph. (Just read them for goodness' sake.) Mozart actually praises Michael and Adlgasser as excellent contrapuntists (in a letter in 1777 to Padre Martini), and he played MH 187, MH 189 string quintets, but never makes any mention of Joseph's prowess as a composer. Mozart was always interested in Michael's graduals and fugues. There's no evidence he was ever interested in any of Joseph's compositions. Joseph Haydn wasn't the inventor of motivic/contrapuntal workings in the string quartet. Franz Xaver Richter (with his Op.5 quartets) deserves that title. Probably no other composer is more exaggerated as an inventor and influencer than Joseph Haydn. I'll make videos about this some day. Also, I hate to say it Joseph Haydn's harmony is quite tame in comparison (see the wikipedia page "tone clusters", and the superiority of Michael 's harmonic depth. Also, btw, the use of non-chord tones in Op.64 No.6 is quite tame. (Berlioz, Clara Schumann, Liszt thought so about Joseph.) Compare it with the harmony of the adagio from MH 367. Schubert wept in his visit to Michael's grave. No wonder why.
Heck even Franz Ignaz von Beecke (1733-1803) is less tamer than Joseph Haydn. String Quartet in C major (cir. 1780) with its dissonant slow introduction. "Benevolent satisfaction" is a correct description for all of Joseph Haydn's slow movements, (as Berlioz described them).
@@jackjack3320 "There's no evidence he was ever interested in any of Joseph's compositions." Have you ever read any of Mozart's letters? 🤣
@@jackjack3320
Your reply rather demonstrates the point that an opinion is not necessarily a judgement based on knowledge and understanding.
nice video!
I missed Beethoven on this channel... :')
You should make a video on all of Mozart's calling cards
Mozart's calling card is Alberti Bass, and how he frequently opens with a half theme that modulates in call and response with a rhythmic sequence, but which doesn't resolve to the tonic, so the listener expects to hear more, and then followed by a regular modulating sequence after the theme, which then changes into a florid section with faster notes, which then leads to a cadence, then the theme or a counter theme appears and is developed. This is distinctive from other Classical era composers, who likewise have their own stylistic habits. This also is for the faster and more popular movements. Slow movements are different, and fast movements also vary. Not all classical era composers used lots of Alberti Bass. Boccherini didn't buse it much, and Boccherini's leading parts are also much more free form and rhythmically unpredictable than Mozart. To many people, this means his music is not as immediately catchy, but catchy or popular is not the same thing as high quality, otherwise, top 40 pop music would then be better than Mozart or any other Classical composer.
Marvelous, as always. Would you please recommend me some book I could use to study music theory?
Take a look at the Beethoven's Sonata Hammerklavier
I watched this just one time
5:00, I laughed out loud. You're a very funny guy.
YES! :D Love these examples and your analysis
Re: The Beethoven repeating the opening phrase in Bb. It definitely feels that way to the ears when the chord first appears, but I always think that it "reveals" itself to be IV of IV by the end of the phrase (via a C4/2 to G(6). Similarly the opening idea has the V(4/2) of V(6) at the end of its phrase and the same phenomenon occurs in the faster 16th note roiling version of the theme (now transposed up to D minor) "revealing" itself to be iv/vi as we modulate towards (of all keys) E Major for the 2nd theme.
And my god, that ingenious coda; my god, what a bitch it is to play xD
Yes, it's always hard to know whether to call something a "modulation" or just a prolonged functional chord in the original key.
@@Richard.Atkinson Totally agreed! I thrive in these types of ambiguities, so I got all excited when you used this example (even if for a different purpose) 🤓
The coda of the finale is what is really torturing: the octave scales
Small correction to my first comment: C4/2 to F(6) [not G]
@@zhihuangxu6551 Oh gosh, yes... are the octave glisses in the finale even possible on a modern instrument? (Excluding pianists with exceptionally large hands)
Thank you for this very interesting video on countermelodies. Actually I have not composed many my self, but in this piece actually you have two countermelodies playing along with the main theme. Whisc is actually is the second theme in this piece. First you hear it with the first countermeloy which is sung by a choir and. BUT! Second time the second theme appears with the same countermelody sung by the choir and dubbled with the trumpets a THIRD countermelody appears after four bars played by the horns. I am very proud of this since creating countermeldy is not only to get the counterpoint right, but each melody much work as individual melodies musically as well...have a listen...it is school orchestra , but you will spot it anyway..;) th-cam.com/video/c9X5-9FW1_M/w-d-xo.html
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