Open play and recently the addition of focusing on one specific shot every time I play. Today, for example I focused on bending my 3rd shot drives over the net with maximum power.
As a physical therapist, I use all of these techniques for motor learning. It was very interesting to hear someone who isn't a colleague speak on these topics. Great video, man!
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment. Super cool to hear someone from PT using this as that’s been one of the fields that has come up in some of the research in past videos as well
5mins into the video, and im hooked. You helped me with the mental side of pickleball on the last video and this is another excellent video that validates methods that i’ve implemented recently. Thank you, love the content. keep them coming.
Really happy to hear that. This will be the first of many on the EA. I’ll also be releasing practice design/game videos. Keep me posted on your journey 🙌
Holy crap! I’ve been talking about this but I get the are you crazy look. I was intutively frustrated with drilling because I’d get in a game and everything would go south. I’d say to people there are too many variables that aren’t simulated in drilling. I’m so excited to hear more about this and how to incorporate/apply into practice/games. thank you so much!!!!
I’m a 5.0 ish pickleball player, and a beginner surfer. I’m way more excited about learning to surf using an ecological approach after watching this video. I do want to get better at Pickleball too, and I’m looking forward to that, however, surfing is an example of where I’ve really struggled trying to implement specific techniques I see on TH-cam or see other people doing. You can’t really isolate yourself from the environment in surfing… you are forced into it. I’m definitely gonna think about how I can apply to surfing and pickleball! I also have a two-year-old boy and this seems like a much better way to be teaching him anything rather than trying to control his technique
appreciate the comment. Yeah it's interesting, Greg (my coach) and many others who have learned about the EA have mentioned it's similarities to how children learn. Like initially, everything is just based on perception, many things they aren't explicitly taught how to do, they just do it. They aren't explicitly taught because they can't necessarily understand us. And the games based approach also makes learning more fun and engaging for them as well. It's all very interesting as I'm learning more and more. Unfortunately, I don't have anything to offer on the surfing part, haha.
Ok this guy makes a great point but it’s an old concept. There is a book I believe is called the Inner Game of Tennis. It’s about a tennis coach in the 70’s or 80’s who trained several champions by using the training methods this guy is talking about. He goes into exact detail on how to and why it works. Get the book it’s extremely detailed. Pete Carrol credits his success with QB’s to this book I got it when I was a varsity hockey coach.
Great book. Haven’t read through it all. Also (I believe) I mentioned it in the video on focus of attention. Yes, it's an old concept, even before Timothy Gallowey's time, starting with Nikolai Bernstein and James Gibson.
Learning through simulated situations hits different because you learn it like you discovered it. Example is getting to the line ASAP. Everyone said run to the line but it’s not always the case,
I think a good way of thought is focusing on one skill / one execution / one spot on the court, then the game will naturally take over while remaining focus and feel where you want to put your most attention on.. Similiar to when you are playing your regular doubles, but this time you do it with variety of minigames so the one skill has been put to several different situations - without forgetting that you still need to keep the whole game together to pursue the skill. The movement, the timing, the seeking of the ball, whatever it involves. Static training is not good unless you are really learning only motors of the shot, once you have it, then its good to move on to be more versatile that links to the real feel of the game.
Could you help me with an example? Sometimes I can't yet see a way to avoid teaching via "rote technique drilling". ... Let's say I am coaching someone who has terrible footwork and it's affecting their dinks, their returns, their drops, almost everything. How could I "show them where to look, but not tell them what to look at"? And how could I setup an effective small game to help them get better shots off, via better footwork?
I had been thinking this over and realized I wasn't having trouble because I don't understand the context and problem fully and maybe this thought process might help you. Where is the problem in the footwork? Is it linear or lateral footwork? Is it because they're too close or too far from the ball? Are they not moving at all? All of these would create different task based games. I'm also not sure how they're currently practicing and what needs to be changed. Sounds like the games may need to focus on variability in movement.
@@buildingpickleball Great insight. I could setup a few pylons and create a game where they have to dink to small area and the other player must stretch them left then right. Another variation would be to setup the stretch pylons about 3 or 4 feet off the kitchen, and they would have to go slightly backward with good footwork to get the ball.
What a deep pod with lots to unpack. For sure needs multiple listens to absorb it all for me. Mindfulness in all things intrigues me. Ecological Approach makes more sense now. Thanks Brian.
Excellent content. I look forward to implementing these techniques. Thanks for conducting the extensive research and putting it all together to make it easily comprehensible. I’m curious to know which six zero paddle are you using?
Appreciate you watching and the comment. Really glad to hear the feedback about it being comprehensible. The infinity black diamond. I was using the BnB Filth for probably 6+ months? Tested a ton of paddles and stuck with it but the IBD is the perfect upgrade for me. I’m really impressed with it. Especially bc I couldn’t get into the DBD
@@buildingpickleball I also couldn’t get into the DBD. I just got the IBD and really enjoy the spin and pop. I’m experimenting with lead tape setups to reduce the miss hits. I find that the sweet spot is relatively small, but when you nail it, it feels so pure.
@@buildingpickleball I started with a 3 inch strip of 1 gram per inch (Pickleball Effect Tungsten Tape) on each side starting at the bottom corners going up. (4 & 8 o'clock). I found this to extend the sweet a spot a bit lower in the paddle and help me tame the beast. My drives were no longer wild and long, clearing the net just by a few inches with great control. However, I noticed that blocks and resets that hit the edges on the top half of the paddle were still dead; usually ended up in the net. Then I added a 1 inch strip, centered on each top corner, and that seemed to stretch out the sweet spot and help with the jarring miss hits. I was reluctant to add too much to the top corners because I wanted to keep the swing weight as low as possible and keep the fast hands that this paddle was designed for. I would like to mention that I had a medium size Hesacore tour grip on the paddle at first. Two things I learned from this... 1) The paddle became heavier than I prefer. The Hesacore itself weighs 0.63 ounce! I began to feel it in my elbow. 2) After I removed the Hesacore and reverted back to its original grip plus an overgrip, I was pleasantly surprised that the paddle felt less muted, increasing my feel for the ball, and best of all the miss hits improved even more so. IMO, the Hesacore is an innovative concept but just not for me. I think that it may be better suited for other racket sports with faster and heavier balls, ie. tennis & padel, where 0.63 ounces would have less effect on the performance of those much heavier rackets. It's all relative.
Absolutley fantastic. I practice jiu jitsu and have watched many Greg Saunders video's and have experienced the ecological approach on the mats. i'm an idiot for not applying this to pickleball. You've done an amazing job of explaining this, very thorough - what a ton of work. Thank you!
I think drills are important in developing mechanics for any type of task/sport. Without drills/repetitive practice, the person won't develop the necessary proper habits/form/technique to have adequate mechanics. The approach you suggest may work better for advanced players. Also, like you said because people are all individually different -- some players will not necessarily "discover" their flaws or deficiencies fast enough than having a coach or following a drill in a scenario setting. I think both traditional and ecological approach have benefits but the traditional approach develops proper/elite mechanics as a beginner and maintaining those skills at a higher level.
So I’m glad you commented this. The ecological approach does not discriminate on skill level or experience. I’ve seen it first hand with one grappler in particular, his name is Noah Shaffner out of Standard. He outclasses and submits black belts who trained for 10+ years. Our scoring and/or winning these small sided games. Noah has 2 years under him and is 18 yo now I believe? They call him the purebred bc with no grappling or wrestling experience he was only taught through this method. He doesn’t see “techniques” or mechanics, he sees the problem and affordances and invariants in each problem. I’ve also seen this inversely as well. People who have been taught the traditional approach and then exposed to EA, having to actually break bad habits or as they refer to as attractor states. Issues with the traditional is that people have long been told that there is a right way to do something or their mechanics. But the body self organizes. There’s also nearly an infinite number of way to do something, especially from how the body and muscles activate. See degrees of freedom problem. An issue with the traditional approach is they teach “mechanics” but not the information the individual is to look for. The context is missing. So when they encounter someone who presents a new or novel problem, these individuals tend to ‘reinvest’ (see video on choking), or they try to perform a “technique” into the incorrect context. They weren’t trained what to look for or the why, only the how. Individuals are different, which is why they have to discover their own solutions and how their body and attributes organize around them. This isn’t to say a coach or practice needs to be tailored to individuals, they absolutely do. Also why I advocate for small sides games where they discover than being put in a mold through the traditional approach where someone imparts what worked for them. Regarding varying experience levels, that’s where the varying degrees of constraints and variability come into play. And attuning to the most effective information in the environment. It’s a good point and topic you bring up.
@@buildingpickleball It may take a nonathletic person an extremely long time to learn with that method. I see it working better for people who have had prior athletic training of some sort, and know how their body works. Without a bit of coaching I could see this approach having someone try a bad shot time and time again without any progress. Sound a bit on the frustrating side.. I do see benefits for other players, who know how their body works.
@@dalevoigt8612I agree with you on this one. I’m not a naturally athletic person. I’m awkward, and have a hard time sensing the position of my body in space. I need to learn specific motions and repeat them over and over in order to ingrain them. Something as simple as brushing up on the ball takes a lot of mental work for me. I’m also extremely detail oriented at the cost of seeing the bigger picture. So if I’m focused on what my paddle’s doing, my legs could be doing something completely different. It just takes a lot of work to get all the body parts to work together, and that means a lot of rote repetition. Once the basic skills are developed, then the ecological approach can kick in.
I struggle with adjusting to the different balls between rec/league/tournaments. Based on this approach I tried a drill in which I played skinny singles and switched the ball for every point ( 4 different balls, Franklin/joola/vulcan/selkirk ). My logic was that this was a realistic drill with a constraint focused on adapting to different balls quickly. I'm not sure I understood the assignment correctly, but by the end of it, I definitely felt better about this specific issue! Thanks for the video.
100%. The ball itself is an environmental constraint. Being able to adapt and solve that problem seems to lie within the idea behind EA. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment.
As a singles specialist I really like warming up immediately with mini games like skinny singles or our own version of “Cat and Mouse” where the first two hits have to land in the kitchen and then the rest of the court is available. Then I play normal games against opponents of varying skill, all while looking for chances to implement my work-in-progress tools, even when they aren’t fully polished, like my two-handed backhand and flick-volleys/rolls at the kitchen line for the 4th shot.
100%. Matching the intensity and looks of the live game seems to be a far more effective approach. Your perception becomes attuned to a truer representation as opposed to that lackadaisical warm up you generally see. Something that seems small but is a significant difference with your approach is just the intention behind what you’re doing. Appreciate the comment and sharing your experience.
I have mixed feelings with this.....I agree that doing drill "games" and practicing game like situations while doing a drill game is definitely more effective than just mindless dinking and dropping. Part of me disagrees about what you were saying about everybody has their unique technique and there's no one right way to hit a ball or hold a paddle. In every sport, there's typically data behind techniques that are more effective. For example, individuals and professional players who played table tennis in its infancy had many different styles and techniques but over the years of professional table tennis, certain techniques have repeatedly shown to produce better results and now most pros play a similar style. Right now with pickleball there are still a few different techniques among the pro players...I think overtime there will be certain techniques that are found to be most effective that more and more players should utilize to optimize their potential and some techniques will be found to be not as effective in producing desired results. Do we teach individuals to utilize whatever technique feels comfortable for them because they can optimize that technique for their game or do we teach them techniques that will be shown to produce better results for individuals? My feeling is the latter but still interested to see what the data shows. Pickleball is exciting though because of the differences in every individual's game.
appreciate the thorough comment. Not entirely sure if we're disagreeing or not here but the belief of Bernstein and supporters of EA is that there is no one ideal technique. Every single individual has intrinsic features and properties that make it nearly impossible to perform the exact technique repeatedly, see 'degrees of freedom' problem. Rob Gray once stated 'who cares how it's done if you get the desired outcome'. Regarding what is most effective? Absolutely. To hit a backhand slice there's no doubt there has to be a downward motion on the ball. There are invariant properties. But the issue isn't that, it's this idea of reinforcing an ideal technique and how to explicitly perform it versus using cues, constraints, variability, and teaching the individual to attune to the environment as the starting point rather than recalling the technical steps from this idea that skill lives in the head and comes from this top down approach. What they're harping on is that there's a difference between technique and skill. And that skill isn't performed in a vacuum. And that it's less about the 'how' and rather the why.
So is the application essentially the use of targeted mini games? I’m a little confused Inner game of tennis talks a lot about how to get people to learn mechanics by watching others and then watching themselves/improving their presence and body awareness. The ecological method doesn’t quite sound like a replacement for that I don’t think? More so a replacement for unrealistic drilling
Small sided games, task based games, differential learning, constraints led approach < I guess many ways to look at it but yeah the use of these game based approaches. I don't think I ever completed Inner Game of Tennis but I remember it resonating with me. I think there's truth to watching others because of 'mirror neurons'. Recording and watching yourself is definitely a useful tool as well. As far as I know, I don't think it's a replacement? Yeah more of an alternative to the technique based repetitive drilling.
💯 totally agree with this approach and thanks for sharing the history behind it. Mini games are far more enjoyable then hitting the same stroke constantly.
This is pretty awesome and refreshing. While I have experienced some benefits from drilling specific shots, I find the most improvement in my game comes when I set a generic intention of what shot outcome I want to work on before each time I play. What's the research about it taking 400 repetitions to create a new synapse in the brain, unless it is done in play in which it takes only 10 to 20 repetitions?
Yeah the intention is definitely a big part. Yeah I'm not 100% sure on the "10,000 hour rule" belief. Because that's basically saying you repeat one "ideal" movement until it becomes automatic and reflexive, right? I think that contradicts believers of the Ecological Approach. They believe in reactive rather than reflexes. Rob Gray mentions "Produce the same outcome by using different movements." It's repetition without repetition. They don't believe that skill is internalized and stored in the brain. Now could 10,000 hours still be applied if you use what you say like intention? I think so. I just don't think it's repeating the same movement. Rather repeat the same problem. Definitely something I'm going to look into though. Appreciate the watch and comment.
Excellent topic and presentation. It will be challenging to implement in coaching but I definitely believe it’s a better way than the typical traditional approaches… Thank you for all your work. 👍🙏❤️
This is fun. I agree. My practice is more about mobility and muscle control and less of actual pickleball practice. I treat pickleball like a martial art mastering both hands of combat.
Another awesome video, Brian! Will try to apply this into my content. During drills and even in rec play, I’ll put constraints in place like: the goal is to get to the kitchen but you can only do so by hitting a drop, then reset two balls in the transition zone (cross courts or straight ahead).
I think skinny singles is okay towards the tail end of practice, as a way to apply what was focused on in the small-sided game in the bigger picture. It’s just so broad. Really depends on what the intention is? What is the individuals focus, what are they trying to achieve or work on? Big fan of skinny singles.
Please don't take this wrong, i loved the video and agree with almost everything you said, but you were worried about starting* to get all woowoo at ten minutes?
Do you ever meet people who are so unobservant or so unaware of physics that they dont even know the possible solutions to the problems that you might identify for them?One example: i play with a highly educated, very intelligent 3.5 player over the last 3 years who just noticed that some of the tennis players drives have a strong arcing trajectory. Still not sure this player would have discovered topspin had i not shared Zane Navratil's "why pros dont slice anymore' video. How do you approach this given there are people who come to pb with no sports background?
Definitely, that sounds like me when I started. It’s almost like just understanding cause and effect. Hmm first thought is seeing if their gaze is even looking at the opponents body language, the movement of their paddle, and the ball trajectory. We know an invariant property of topspin is a low to high movement. No matter what, that has to be done in order to create topspin. There was research about how expert performers gaze remains on a few concentrated areas longer than novice who have sporadic gazes, more spread out. I say that because if this person doesn’t have the background, they may not have developed that perceptual relationship with their environment yet. Next, try to create games that add constraints to help them understand the relationship to what they’re doing and the effect it has. Games (generally speaking) just have so much going on and things to pay attention to, we want narrow their focus to that problem that’s happening and repeat exploring the problem. I’ll think on what this game could look like.
@@jmcloughlinhonestly, if you’ve played pickleball for 3 years and don’t know what top spin is, you’ve probably been playing with old ladies the entire time lol
@@adamheath4599 You may want to reread my comment. I know what topspin is. As to the the age and gender of some of the folks i play with. I'll plead the 5th. The funny thing is that the person im referring to who never recognizes topspin has a devastating drive and putaway but no shape on shots.
Twice as long as it needed to be. You need a much stronger editing for your scripts. Beyond beginner level content, lots of other pickleball videos suggest using gamified drills.
Great concept for a twenty year old, but considering pickball players are mostly over 45. That being said, who has the time and patience to wait for results that could take forever or never to materialize.
👈 this guy. I’m over 45 and playing the long game. I’m not in a rush to be 4.0. Just want to get there in time to compete at 4.0 when I’m in the 50+ bracket.
Looking forward to upcoming videos of practice/games to go along with this. I think Tanner Pickleball has a few great ideas for training, especially his dinking games in this video: th-cam.com/video/qtQpxstXlbU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WIC5y1DzCSS2xPOP Switching from static, soft hitting, essentially total bs practice to these dink games instead has helped a lot and the scoring really helps up the intensity. Could definitely use a few more ideas for me and my drilling partner.
Thanks for the comment. Yeah I’m looking forward to releasing the videos as well. His games are fine, they’re just situational. There’s no real constraints applied. What I notice with this is people fall into just trying to win rather than explore. There’s no constraints to force people to explore, to make mistakes. These are just situational games that mimic the live game without having a specific focus to differentiate it as practice, as an environment to learn. I don’t see any real intention or attention, focus. Winning can certainly be an end objective but there’s so many variables, what are we really trying to achieve or develop? If the end objective is to just purely win, what I tend to see is people exploiting their strengths. Which is okay, it’s just different. You miss some of the nuance.
![Most Powerful Forehand Drive In Pickleball [BREAKDOWN + SLO-MO]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/aKTJoaJoemw/mqdefault.jpg)
What does your practice look like?
Discount codes can be found in the video description.
Open play and recently the addition of focusing on one specific shot every time I play. Today, for example I focused on bending my 3rd shot drives over the net with maximum power.
Looking forward to the suggested practice videos! I love that your videos really make me think about my game!
As a physical therapist, I use all of these techniques for motor learning. It was very interesting to hear someone who isn't a colleague speak on these topics. Great video, man!
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment. Super cool to hear someone from PT using this as that’s been one of the fields that has come up in some of the research in past videos as well
I use these approaches in behavioral therapy and adaptive sports - for people with autism
5mins into the video, and im hooked. You helped me with the mental side of pickleball on the last video and this is another excellent video that validates methods that i’ve implemented recently. Thank you, love the content. keep them coming.
Really happy to hear that. This will be the first of many on the EA. I’ll also be releasing practice design/game videos. Keep me posted on your journey 🙌
Thanks!
Oh wow, thank you so much.
Holy crap! I’ve been talking about this but I get the are you crazy look. I was intutively frustrated with drilling because I’d get in a game and everything would go south. I’d say to people there are too many variables that aren’t simulated in drilling. I’m so excited to hear more about this and how to incorporate/apply into practice/games. thank you so much!!!!
That’s exactly how I felt when my coach Greg would talk about it. It’s like you can’t unsee it anymore. I’m happy to hear this resonates with you.
I’m a 5.0 ish pickleball player, and a beginner surfer. I’m way more excited about learning to surf using an ecological approach after watching this video.
I do want to get better at Pickleball too, and I’m looking forward to that, however, surfing is an example of where I’ve really struggled trying to implement specific techniques I see on TH-cam or see other people doing. You can’t really isolate yourself from the environment in surfing… you are forced into it. I’m definitely gonna think about how I can apply to surfing and pickleball!
I also have a two-year-old boy and this seems like a much better way to be teaching him anything rather than trying to control his technique
appreciate the comment. Yeah it's interesting, Greg (my coach) and many others who have learned about the EA have mentioned it's similarities to how children learn. Like initially, everything is just based on perception, many things they aren't explicitly taught how to do, they just do it. They aren't explicitly taught because they can't necessarily understand us. And the games based approach also makes learning more fun and engaging for them as well. It's all very interesting as I'm learning more and more.
Unfortunately, I don't have anything to offer on the surfing part, haha.
Ok this guy makes a great point but it’s an old concept. There is a book I believe is called the Inner Game of Tennis. It’s about a tennis coach in the 70’s or 80’s who trained several champions by using the training methods this guy is talking about. He goes into exact detail on how to and why it works. Get the book it’s extremely detailed. Pete Carrol credits his success with QB’s to this book I got it when I was a varsity hockey coach.
Great book. Haven’t read through it all. Also (I believe) I mentioned it in the video on focus of attention.
Yes, it's an old concept, even before Timothy Gallowey's time, starting with Nikolai Bernstein and James Gibson.
Learning through simulated situations hits different because you learn it like you discovered it. Example is getting to the line ASAP. Everyone said run to the line but it’s not always the case,
I think a good way of thought is focusing on one skill / one execution / one spot on the court, then the game will naturally take over while remaining focus and feel where you want to put your most attention on.. Similiar to when you are playing your regular doubles, but this time you do it with variety of minigames so the one skill has been put to several different situations - without forgetting that you still need to keep the whole game together to pursue the skill. The movement, the timing, the seeking of the ball, whatever it involves. Static training is not good unless you are really learning only motors of the shot, once you have it, then its good to move on to be more versatile that links to the real feel of the game.
Could you help me with an example?
Sometimes I can't yet see a way to avoid teaching via "rote technique drilling".
...
Let's say I am coaching someone who has terrible footwork and it's affecting their dinks, their returns, their drops, almost everything.
How could I "show them where to look, but not tell them what to look at"?
And how could I setup an effective small game to help them get better shots off, via better footwork?
I had been thinking this over and realized I wasn't having trouble because I don't understand the context and problem fully and maybe this thought process might help you. Where is the problem in the footwork? Is it linear or lateral footwork? Is it because they're too close or too far from the ball? Are they not moving at all? All of these would create different task based games.
I'm also not sure how they're currently practicing and what needs to be changed. Sounds like the games may need to focus on variability in movement.
@@buildingpickleball
Great insight.
I could setup a few pylons and create a game where they have to dink to small area and the other player must stretch them left then right. Another variation would be to setup the stretch pylons about 3 or 4 feet off the kitchen, and they would have to go slightly backward with good footwork to get the ball.
What a deep pod with lots to unpack. For sure needs multiple listens to absorb it all for me. Mindfulness in all things intrigues me. Ecological Approach makes more sense now. Thanks Brian.
Thanks for watching, Kim. Definitely a lot to take in in this one.
Excellent content. I look forward to implementing these techniques. Thanks for conducting the extensive research and putting it all together to make it easily comprehensible. I’m curious to know which six zero paddle are you using?
Appreciate you watching and the comment. Really glad to hear the feedback about it being comprehensible.
The infinity black diamond. I was using the BnB Filth for probably 6+ months? Tested a ton of paddles and stuck with it but the IBD is the perfect upgrade for me. I’m really impressed with it. Especially bc I couldn’t get into the DBD
@@buildingpickleball I also couldn’t get into the DBD. I just got the IBD and really enjoy the spin and pop. I’m experimenting with lead tape setups to reduce the miss hits. I find that the sweet spot is relatively small, but when you nail it, it feels so pure.
100%. Yeah I haven’t even weighted mine up yet 😳
Where’d you put the tape?
@@buildingpickleball I started with a 3 inch strip of 1 gram per inch (Pickleball Effect Tungsten Tape) on each side starting at the bottom corners going up. (4 & 8 o'clock). I found this to extend the sweet a spot a bit lower in the paddle and help me tame the beast. My drives were no longer wild and long, clearing the net just by a few inches with great control. However, I noticed that blocks and resets that hit the edges on the top half of the paddle were still dead; usually ended up in the net. Then I added a 1 inch strip, centered on each top corner, and that seemed to stretch out the sweet spot and help with the jarring miss hits. I was reluctant to add too much to the top corners because I wanted to keep the swing weight as low as possible and keep the fast hands that this paddle was designed for.
I would like to mention that I had a medium size Hesacore tour grip on the paddle at first. Two things I learned from this... 1) The paddle became heavier than I prefer. The Hesacore itself weighs 0.63 ounce! I began to feel it in my elbow. 2) After I removed the Hesacore and reverted back to its original grip plus an overgrip, I was pleasantly surprised that the paddle felt less muted, increasing my feel for the ball, and best of all the miss hits improved even more so. IMO, the Hesacore is an innovative concept but just not for me. I think that it may be better suited for other racket sports with faster and heavier balls, ie. tennis & padel, where 0.63 ounces would have less effect on the performance of those much heavier rackets. It's all relative.
Oh wow very interesting. Yeah I just had a convo with someone about the hesacore. Based on what you said, I’m not curious about it anymore lol
Absolutley fantastic. I practice jiu jitsu and have watched many Greg Saunders video's and have experienced the ecological approach on the mats. i'm an idiot for not applying this to pickleball. You've done an amazing job of explaining this, very thorough - what a ton of work. Thank you!
Awesome to connect with a grappler! Greg is the man. Amazing to see how it’s being received in the grappling community and the impact he’s had.
I think drills are important in developing mechanics for any type of task/sport. Without drills/repetitive practice, the person won't develop the necessary proper habits/form/technique to have adequate mechanics. The approach you suggest may work better for advanced players. Also, like you said because people are all individually different -- some players will not necessarily "discover" their flaws or deficiencies fast enough than having a coach or following a drill in a scenario setting. I think both traditional and ecological approach have benefits but the traditional approach develops proper/elite mechanics as a beginner and maintaining those skills at a higher level.
So I’m glad you commented this. The ecological approach does not discriminate on skill level or experience. I’ve seen it first hand with one grappler in particular, his name is Noah Shaffner out of Standard. He outclasses and submits black belts who trained for 10+ years. Our scoring and/or winning these small sided games. Noah has 2 years under him and is 18 yo now I believe? They call him the purebred bc with no grappling or wrestling experience he was only taught through this method. He doesn’t see “techniques” or mechanics, he sees the problem and affordances and invariants in each problem.
I’ve also seen this inversely as well. People who have been taught the traditional approach and then exposed to EA, having to actually break bad habits or as they refer to as attractor states.
Issues with the traditional is that people have long been told that there is a right way to do something or their mechanics. But the body self organizes. There’s also nearly an infinite number of way to do something, especially from how the body and muscles activate. See degrees of freedom problem. An issue with the traditional approach is they teach “mechanics” but not the information the individual is to look for. The context is missing. So when they encounter someone who presents a new or novel problem, these individuals tend to ‘reinvest’ (see video on choking), or they try to perform a “technique” into the incorrect context. They weren’t trained what to look for or the why, only the how.
Individuals are different, which is why they have to discover their own solutions and how their body and attributes organize around them.
This isn’t to say a coach or practice needs to be tailored to individuals, they absolutely do. Also why I advocate for small sides games where they discover than being put in a mold through the traditional approach where someone imparts what worked for them.
Regarding varying experience levels, that’s where the varying degrees of constraints and variability come into play. And attuning to the most effective information in the environment.
It’s a good point and topic you bring up.
@@buildingpickleball It may take a nonathletic person an extremely long time to learn with that method. I see it working better for people who have had prior athletic training of some sort, and know how their body works. Without a bit of coaching I could see this approach having someone try a bad shot time and time again without any progress. Sound a bit on the frustrating side.. I do see benefits for other players, who know how their body works.
@@dalevoigt8612I agree with you on this one. I’m not a naturally athletic person. I’m awkward, and have a hard time sensing the position of my body in space. I need to learn specific motions and repeat them over and over in order to ingrain them. Something as simple as brushing up on the ball takes a lot of mental work for me. I’m also extremely detail oriented at the cost of seeing the bigger picture. So if I’m focused on what my paddle’s doing, my legs could be doing something completely different. It just takes a lot of work to get all the body parts to work together, and that means a lot of rote repetition. Once the basic skills are developed, then the ecological approach can kick in.
I struggle with adjusting to the different balls between rec/league/tournaments. Based on this approach I tried a drill in which I played skinny singles and switched the ball for every point ( 4 different balls, Franklin/joola/vulcan/selkirk ). My logic was that this was a realistic drill with a constraint focused on adapting to different balls quickly. I'm not sure I understood the assignment correctly, but by the end of it, I definitely felt better about this specific issue! Thanks for the video.
100%. The ball itself is an environmental constraint. Being able to adapt and solve that problem seems to lie within the idea behind EA. Thanks for watching and leaving a comment.
As a singles specialist I really like warming up immediately with mini games like skinny singles or our own version of “Cat and Mouse” where the first two hits have to land in the kitchen and then the rest of the court is available. Then I play normal games against opponents of varying skill, all while looking for chances to implement my work-in-progress tools, even when they aren’t fully polished, like my two-handed backhand and flick-volleys/rolls at the kitchen line for the 4th shot.
100%. Matching the intensity and looks of the live game seems to be a far more effective approach. Your perception becomes attuned to a truer representation as opposed to that lackadaisical warm up you generally see.
Something that seems small but is a significant difference with your approach is just the intention behind what you’re doing.
Appreciate the comment and sharing your experience.
Very cool vid. You’re on to something big!
Thanks for watching 🙌 got more coming
I have mixed feelings with this.....I agree that doing drill "games" and practicing game like situations while doing a drill game is definitely more effective than just mindless dinking and dropping.
Part of me disagrees about what you were saying about everybody has their unique technique and there's no one right way to hit a ball or hold a paddle. In every sport, there's typically data behind techniques that are more effective. For example, individuals and professional players who played table tennis in its infancy had many different styles and techniques but over the years of professional table tennis, certain techniques have repeatedly shown to produce better results and now most pros play a similar style. Right now with pickleball there are still a few different techniques among the pro players...I think overtime there will be certain techniques that are found to be most effective that more and more players should utilize to optimize their potential and some techniques will be found to be not as effective in producing desired results. Do we teach individuals to utilize whatever technique feels comfortable for them because they can optimize that technique for their game or do we teach them techniques that will be shown to produce better results for individuals? My feeling is the latter but still interested to see what the data shows. Pickleball is exciting though because of the differences in every individual's game.
appreciate the thorough comment. Not entirely sure if we're disagreeing or not here but the belief of Bernstein and supporters of EA is that there is no one ideal technique. Every single individual has intrinsic features and properties that make it nearly impossible to perform the exact technique repeatedly, see 'degrees of freedom' problem. Rob Gray once stated 'who cares how it's done if you get the desired outcome'. Regarding what is most effective? Absolutely. To hit a backhand slice there's no doubt there has to be a downward motion on the ball. There are invariant properties. But the issue isn't that, it's this idea of reinforcing an ideal technique and how to explicitly perform it versus using cues, constraints, variability, and teaching the individual to attune to the environment as the starting point rather than recalling the technical steps from this idea that skill lives in the head and comes from this top down approach.
What they're harping on is that there's a difference between technique and skill. And that skill isn't performed in a vacuum. And that it's less about the 'how' and rather the why.
I am curious if anyone uses boxing as an approach for quicker hand speed at the net? I use a double ended Bag with weighted gloves.
Hm I haven’t heard of it yet 🤷♂️
Nice video man!
thanks, B!
So is the application essentially the use of targeted mini games? I’m a little confused
Inner game of tennis talks a lot about how to get people to learn mechanics by watching others and then watching themselves/improving their presence and body awareness. The ecological method doesn’t quite sound like a replacement for that I don’t think? More so a replacement for unrealistic drilling
Small sided games, task based games, differential learning, constraints led approach < I guess many ways to look at it but yeah the use of these game based approaches.
I don't think I ever completed Inner Game of Tennis but I remember it resonating with me. I think there's truth to watching others because of 'mirror neurons'. Recording and watching yourself is definitely a useful tool as well.
As far as I know, I don't think it's a replacement? Yeah more of an alternative to the technique based repetitive drilling.
@@buildingpickleball thanks! Looking forward to The next videos on this
💯 totally agree with this approach and thanks for sharing the history behind it.
Mini games are far more enjoyable then hitting the same stroke constantly.
Thanks for watching and leaving a comment 🙌 agreed. I’ll share some games in the future
This is pretty awesome and refreshing. While I have experienced some benefits from drilling specific shots, I find the most improvement in my game comes when I set a generic intention of what shot outcome I want to work on before each time I play. What's the research about it taking 400 repetitions to create a new synapse in the brain, unless it is done in play in which it takes only 10 to 20 repetitions?
Yeah the intention is definitely a big part.
Yeah I'm not 100% sure on the "10,000 hour rule" belief. Because that's basically saying you repeat one "ideal" movement until it becomes automatic and reflexive, right? I think that contradicts believers of the Ecological Approach. They believe in reactive rather than reflexes. Rob Gray mentions "Produce the same outcome by using different movements." It's repetition without repetition. They don't believe that skill is internalized and stored in the brain.
Now could 10,000 hours still be applied if you use what you say like intention? I think so. I just don't think it's repeating the same movement. Rather repeat the same problem.
Definitely something I'm going to look into though. Appreciate the watch and comment.
It finally worked it's way into Pickleball. No Pickleball player left behind.
Excellent topic and presentation. It will be challenging to implement in coaching but I definitely believe it’s a better way than the typical traditional approaches… Thank you for all your work. 👍🙏❤️
Looking forward to seeing how it effects your coaching 🙌
I’ve been discovering on my own for years, not just with Pickleball. My coach is a spirit. No need to pay a human
Can we see what a practice looks like please
Yup. Going to get a couple podcasts out here shortly and then will put practice videos out.
Much appreciated.
This is fun. I agree. My practice is more about mobility and muscle control and less of actual pickleball practice. I treat pickleball like a martial art mastering both hands of combat.
Thanks for watching and the comment. Curious, what do your practices look like?
Eco baby. Our BJJ club has been doing this for just over 1yr and the improvement in everyone’s skill level and competition results is very noticeably.
Yessir!
Pickleball is the hottest game in the country. Great video!
This guy doesnt miss
Neither do the hi-chewssss
Another awesome video, Brian! Will try to apply this into my content.
During drills and even in rec play, I’ll put constraints in place like: the goal is to get to the kitchen but you can only do so by hitting a drop, then reset two balls in the transition zone (cross courts or straight ahead).
100%. I’ve seen some of it in your content. Looking forward to seeing more 🙌
Sounds like "skinny singles" would be best "practice" What do you think?
I think skinny singles is okay towards the tail end of practice, as a way to apply what was focused on in the small-sided game in the bigger picture. It’s just so broad. Really depends on what the intention is? What is the individuals focus, what are they trying to achieve or work on?
Big fan of skinny singles.
Please don't take this wrong, i loved the video and agree with almost everything you said, but you were worried about starting* to get all woowoo at ten minutes?
Out of all that that’s what you took away?! Hahaha jk. I didn’t want to make it seem like it’s some spiritual anecdotal experience thing.
Do you ever meet people who are so unobservant or so unaware of physics that they dont even know the possible solutions to the problems that you might identify for them?One example: i play with a highly educated, very intelligent 3.5 player over the last 3 years who just noticed that some of the tennis players drives have a strong arcing trajectory. Still not sure this player would have discovered topspin had i not shared Zane Navratil's "why pros dont slice anymore' video. How do you approach this given there are people who come to pb with no sports background?
Definitely, that sounds like me when I started. It’s almost like just understanding cause and effect. Hmm first thought is seeing if their gaze is even looking at the opponents body language, the movement of their paddle, and the ball trajectory. We know an invariant property of topspin is a low to high movement. No matter what, that has to be done in order to create topspin. There was research about how expert performers gaze remains on a few concentrated areas longer than novice who have sporadic gazes, more spread out. I say that because if this person doesn’t have the background, they may not have developed that perceptual relationship with their environment yet.
Next, try to create games that add constraints to help them understand the relationship to what they’re doing and the effect it has. Games (generally speaking) just have so much going on and things to pay attention to, we want narrow their focus to that problem that’s happening and repeat exploring the problem.
I’ll think on what this game could look like.
@@jmcloughlinhonestly, if you’ve played pickleball for 3 years and don’t know what top spin is, you’ve probably been playing with old ladies the entire time lol
@@adamheath4599
You may want to reread my comment. I know what topspin is. As to the the age and gender of some of the folks i play with. I'll plead the 5th. The funny thing is that the person im referring to who never recognizes topspin has a devastating drive and putaway but no shape on shots.
Pretty much a nonsense to get a paid professional‘therapist’ to teach you for big dollars not easily doable on one’s own!
Twice as long as it needed to be. You need a much stronger editing for your scripts. Beyond beginner level content, lots of other pickleball videos suggest using gamified drills.
Could you share one drill or channel? I’ve seen the same 20 drills on every TH-cam channel. Phenomenal video by the way.
Great concept for a twenty year old, but considering pickball players are mostly over 45. That being said, who has the time and patience to wait for results that could take forever or never to materialize.
👈 this guy. I’m over 45 and playing the long game. I’m not in a rush to be 4.0. Just want to get there in time to compete at 4.0 when I’m in the 50+ bracket.
Average age of a pickleball player according to APP research is a youthful 34.
Looking forward to upcoming videos of practice/games to go along with this. I think Tanner Pickleball has a few great ideas for training, especially his dinking games in this video: th-cam.com/video/qtQpxstXlbU/w-d-xo.htmlsi=WIC5y1DzCSS2xPOP
Switching from static, soft hitting, essentially total bs practice to these dink games instead has helped a lot and the scoring really helps up the intensity. Could definitely use a few more ideas for me and my drilling partner.
Thanks for the comment. Yeah I’m looking forward to releasing the videos as well.
His games are fine, they’re just situational. There’s no real constraints applied. What I notice with this is people fall into just trying to win rather than explore. There’s no constraints to force people to explore, to make mistakes. These are just situational games that mimic the live game without having a specific focus to differentiate it as practice, as an environment to learn. I don’t see any real intention or attention, focus. Winning can certainly be an end objective but there’s so many variables, what are we really trying to achieve or develop? If the end objective is to just purely win, what I tend to see is people exploiting their strengths. Which is okay, it’s just different. You miss some of the nuance.
Gotta open with the candy! 🍬 that’ll stick with them 🤤
That hichew life 🤘
hahaha Marcelle the Shell!!
🥹 been waiting for someone to notice him 🙌