MAJOR ISSUE FOUND - Did We Just Waste $10,000? | Learning the Lines
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 28 มิ.ย. 2024
- We jumped on a neglected 1991 Corsair F-27 trimaran sailboat that "needed some TLC," but quickly found out that it had a hidden problem requiring major intervention.
Is she too far gone to rebuild? We don't think so, but what do you think?
Leave a comment below.
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Learning the Lines is a channel about us, an average couple in our 20's, with big dreams to be sailing the world by the time we're in our 30's. We're not afraid to jump into anything, put in the work, and learn as we go. We started out with Somnium, an O'day 272, moved onto Freebie, an Endeavour 32, and now are focusing on sailboat tours and working full time as teachers while we save up for our next boat.
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It looks repairable to me. Unfortunately I think you'll have to totally remove the liner to get full access to the inside of the hull. But I believe with some sweat and hard work you can repair it. Good luck.
I agree, this was my first thought. Cut out as much as you can early.
James you nailed it.
Agree, it's too difficult to work on the damage without removing the liner.
I agree. I think you have to take out the interior liner. As far as actually making a profit on this boat. No, I think that was always a pipedream. Doing your own labor will mean if you fix it correctly, you'll get your material cost back out of the boat, but you'll not get your labor cost out. When it's all said and done, you'll be putting hundreds of hours of labor into it for free. As you said in your last video, if TH-cam views pay off, maybe you can make it a profitable venture.
I totally agree James. Sorry I didn't see your comment before I too commented and said the same thing.
Thinking this through, personally, I think the best idea would be to gut the boat. Remove everything inside to the door up with a shell. Then do the hull repairs. That would make the job a lot easier and safer. Then you could deign the interior to suit your needs. Doing it this way would give you a 100% repair and peace of mind. Struggling to get into restricted spaces is never a good idea as there is always a risk of missing just a small area and causing problems lasted down the line. Good luck with the boat.
I've travelled the same path. You will find that the damage has migrated extensively and a proper repair will require far more work than you think. You will learn a lot and maybe you tube $ will compensate. It needs to be enjoyable to you, if not then don't start but get rid of it.
I have to agree. This kind of work is so nasty. IMO, you will need to remove as much of the liner as possible - the way the bouyancy bulkhead has buckled and cracked makes me think there is much more to this than meets the eye. Sure it can all be done and it will make for some interesting episodes! I just dont think I would do it in this case. Best of luck!
@@spikeafrican8797 Agreed, something is flexing so much that this has cracked. It means far more weakness structurally than is worth fixing.
it may cost more $ just to get it scrapped
just a guess here do you think this damage was a result from grounding the vertical daggerboard?
I'm definitely over my skis on this but.... why not lose the liners completely, make the repairs, then install removable teak floor panels at a lower elevation then liners (more headroom). I think I would strip strip her down completely to begin the rebuild process- only makes sense to me as Im a builder and don't like piece-meal repairs as they take more time to perform. Lastly can you add support to the trailer so that the boat is 100% supported at all points thus no ability for the boat to "flex" when someone is inside her when its on the trailer? Good Luck guys!
I agree, loose the liners and make more headroom and a fk
Floor, sorry typo. A false teak n holly floor would make this be shine and some “mood” lighting would appeal to a lot of people. My 2c
Agreed take the liner out and reglass the whole bilge. Also add in some floors and or ribs to better spread the load across the hull
I agree. Sawzall and grinder. Expand the trailer bunks for external support and add other temporary support stabilization as needed. Remove the mold/carpet and clean the the interior up as much as possible. Your work environment will be a lot brighter and less depressing. Repair/strengthen stringers, add/glassed in frames as needed. A teak sole with ample access would indeed be a beautiful finish Also, there might be acceptable less costly alternatives. Worrying about the price paid is water under the bridge and mostly a moot point aside from being a learning experience. Also. putting too much emphasis on its potential ultimate monetary value could be a negative. Sort of reminds me of (albeit wise) investors that buy houses to flip them - every decision attached to the bottom line. All that said, this is way beyond my skill set but I’d love to see the transition and I think you have the necessary abilities to make it happen. Have fun and thanks for sharing the videos.
The liner is structural, so I don't think it should be taken out.
Get the biggest dehumidifier you can find in there and let it run for a few days with the boat sealed up.
Map out the the entire sole with tape into bigger sections leaving a 4in boarder between each section and side. That will give better access and save you from making more unplanned cut latter. The leftover boarder will allow you bond a flange that you will drop in and rebound the removed sections.
Rip out old laminate
Seal up the boat with another round of dehumidifier with the core exposed.
This is not opinion, I have done this 2 times with old cored boats.
Amen
My advice: before you do ANYTHING ELSE, have a qualified surveyor do an appraisal. You have no idea what it may require to make this vessel seaworthy and, from 60+ years of experience, I can tell you it will inevitably be more than you think.
Beware the Sunk Cost fallacy. That’s the “We can’t stop now, we’ve spent so much” mistake. Sometimes (often in the case of yachts), it’s better to accept the upfront cost of a mistake than to throw good money after bad. Not to mention hundreds of hours, working with very unpleasant materials, to end up with a boat that’s STILL worth ten grand less than it cost you.
So, unless this is your lifetime dream yacht, I’d think long and hard about whether you want to dedicate months or years of your life plus thousands of dollars to a project that will never return your money.
And the lines to learn from this? Don’t spend 10G on a boat without having it surveyed. I always make an offer “Subject to survey” and have always been able to save far more than the $1,000 survey cost, in subsequent negotiations.
Good luck, whatever you decide to do. ♥️
Couldn't have said it better myself. Always get a survey, well worth the $350...
This X 100,000
@@lenjanssen9600 If you do a survey, you need an repair and construction expert. The run of the mill "expert" will not have any idea, and In fact NOONE will know the extent of the damage and the best way to address it until it is torn apart anyway. Corsairs are pretty unique and beyond what many folks are used to dealing with.
@@robertgarbe6348 What Robert said. You need someone with repair, engineering, and construction experience. Paying for just a survey at this point after the sale isn't worth it. You need someone who knows how to fix this boat.
totally Q.E.D, best advice
I think the brightest side of it is that you found the damage early - before you put loads more money into it. I'm sure you can fix it,and you're ideally placed to fix it. You can even
recover the costs of fixing it. The only question is, would you enjoy fixing it? If it's a loathesome task that would make you two miserable, throw it away and speak of it no more. If you find it an interesting challenge that brings you two together, then dive in; the outcome of the attempt doesn't much matter. Do what will make you happy.
agreed....just don't let it become a burden to a beautiful young family
Very, very sound advice.
@@winstoncat6785 They didn't even acknowledge it.
Looks repairable but as someone else has commented I'd think about taking out the liner and the whole interior. Start form a shell and this way it should make the rest of the work (electrics, plumbing) a little easier and quicker to work on. I'd also think about losing the two storage spaces and dropping the floor which would gain you some head room. I can't say for sure as I don't know the boat and where any bulk heads or other structural parts are. I'm interested to see what you do.
If he adds foam bulk heads, strengthens the inner and outer shell, at cut point, he theatrically, could install a sail drive propulsion system.
There's a reason this boat was cheap. Buyers don't normally find the hidden "Gotcha" until it's too late, like you've found it now. If you want to enjoy the boat at all, you'll need to repair it. DIY is the order of the day because $$ is tight. Take your time and do it right so when you splash it you're not down in the bilge the whole time, waiting for it all to leak and come apart. Or sell the beast, take a loss and find another boat knowing what you didn't know before.
That's what I was thinking. The guy knew this problem was there and was hoping he found a buyer that wouldn't get a survey or open everything up and see the damage themselves. That's why he took the $10k for the boat, it was otherwise a pile of scrap to him.
I think 10k was a good deal, even with these issues. I was in the market last year (got a 2000 F28 for ~45k) and 90's era F27s were almost always 25k-35k+ and go pretty fast. Once you sail one of these f-boats all the labor will be worth it…
You got this brother.
I love that you still have a positive attitude. Hopefully it won’t be as much work as it looks.
Can’t wait to see you, Randi and the little Skipper on the water.
At 69 years young I would jump at this project, the F-27 is very fast and will repay your diligence with fun and profit. Enjoy the refit, it is only the center hull. Remember when laying glass you do it as the temperature drops so no bubbles will form. If you lay epoxy when the temp is rising bubbles will form. You have a four week full time job or a three month part time job. Blessing and much luck to your entire family.
LOL. A year minimum…
So the boat came with more TH-cam content than you intended? Definitely not a waste. We will appreciate the footage. Most of us watch fiberglass videos anyway🤙
I Double down on my comment on the 09-26 video, "Can't overemphasize the value of NOT requiring a slip". In this case it greatly leverages your DYI abilities and will prove to be the factor that makes this repair a bargain/success. The guys on MJ Sailing are building their boat from the ground up, the ultimate DYI project. I am looking forward to learning a lot. You can do this!!
Look by Parley revival. See how they did their cat. It is more work than you expected. That is because boat work is always at least double of what your pessimistic estimates are. You have the integrity to make something right. You have a TH-cam channel that hopes for good videos. Yes, it is more work. Go for it. Make it become right and you will be able to sell that boat with the best warranty possible because how it is repaired is fully documented. Take the boat off the trailer and hang it on the beam arms. That will make the bending of the hull go away. Good luck!
Only other consideration is “would you rather spend the time sailing or rebuilding the boat”.
They probably wouldn't have much time now with such a small child. A season fixing it in the backyard will give them content for the videos and buy time for the kid to grow :)
Ouch. As a lot of other folks have commented, I think the only way to get the job done properly is to remove as much of that liner as you can. Not little bits here and there. All of that damaged core is going to have to be removed, and new core should be vacuum bagged in place, faired and finished, and then multiple layers of glass (biax, multiple uni, biax probably). I would definately get ahold of someone that has done this sort of repair work before you start just to make sure you are on the right path. If you do it right the end result will be better than the original.
Repair shouldn't be an issue, access is.
All damage must be removed & everything must be fully dried & checked with moisture meter. Lay in new core where needed. Use heavy matte glass, fully saturated & rolled out smooth & tight. Go well past the damage all around. I would also epoxy coat over it if for no other reason than to make possible future issues stand out.
Fiberglass is great material for boats, planes, cars, surfboards. Just be glad you're not using a chopping gun.
Still a good deal. Keep us up on progress.✌
Fix the leak, remove the mouldy lining before you have health issues, remove the whole cabin sole leaving a few inches around the edges, remove the delaminated glass, add about 6 layers of 1708, cover with flow coat, replace the cabin sole
From your video it looks like the cracks run the hole way from bow to stern. To make a proper repair the floor got to go. When you start to sand the hull down it will reveal the story of how, why and how bad. The more you find out then the better the repair can be made. Fiberglasing in cross braces will support the new floor strengthen the hull and give more usable storage space. In the end you have a stronger better boat that you can trust. Did you waste money, no you did not! Any boat you buy will take some work. And you will always have naysayers. But at the end you have gained so much that will help you later with your dreams of living aboard. Ps. (Andy at boat works today) on TH-cam can be a massive help. And many more will help, don't be afraid to ask. Remember we all started at the beginning just like you. ;)
Add an extra filter on your AC unit while you’re cutting the fiberglass to keep from plugging up your AC unit or else it will ruin your AC unit
I'd flip it and buy another in better shape or commit to doing a thorough job of it by fully accessing the bottom and repairing the damaged fully. I'm in the process of rebuilding a wooden boat that had many leaks in the deck that caused fresh water to accumulate in the bilge. I'm still working on it a year and half later. Your project will go much faster.
Be sure to have plenty of ventilation when working with resins and other VOCs. The air conditioner may not allow that. You could hang a shade tarp and use a fan and try and do the work when the weather cools down. Just keep remembering how much you will enjoy the boat’s performance. How hard would it be for you to remove and replace the liner?
I agree safety should be #1 especially with these nasty chemicals. It looks like the former owner just kept plopping JB Weld over the leaks?
I'm pretty sure you already know this but.... Trimarans price per foot are the highest of any boats. Thats why you don't see them absolutely everywhere. They are fun and exciting to sail. Faster in any wind conditions than mono's. You can literally pull them up of shore and topsidespace is vast for length..
So 10k for that boat is still a absolutely great deal. And as you know it's a vast reservoir of content for youtube. With referb videos being highest view counts.
So, its perfect! Congratulations! I'm actually excited to see this progress. Joining F27 groups or forums you can also see tons of recommendations to "upgrade" during repairs. You didn't show rigging much but looks like 1990 stock rigging. Re-rigging after haul repairs highly recommended. It'd reduce your topside Is penetrations and lighten upper.
Hooray! Hours of glorious sanding to look forward to! Go hard, you can do it!
You both are equal to the challenge of restoring this boat properly and making her beautiful again. I think, if anything, this project will also satisfy the hands on type of personality that you both have. Remember that life isn't a destination, it's a journey, so roll up your sleeves and enjoy the ride 😊
It's pretty funny that you guys got such a surprise. After all the boats you've been through, it appears you didn't invest in a boat inspection. I doubt this would have been missed.
I can't see an inspection being cost effective given the price. At 10 grand you know you are going to get problems and maybe a closer look would have been appropriate.
@@danielnwatt For $10k I would have had an inspection and this sort of issue would have pushed the price down, a lot. Having said that the liner is the real pain so to make it a quicker repair removing it would make sense to me. As for the comment that the boat builder expected owners to keep the boat dry! Anyone with a boat knows they let water in somewhere, they skimped on the final finish in the hull to save money.
I look forward to seeing you DIY this boat. I think it’s worth it...love you show
Rebuilding a boat again? I would have thought you learned your lesson. New is the only boat I would ever buy. Good Luck!
enjoyed this, and looking forward to seeing the repairs. also appreciate it being released on wednesday.
You got a deal! My 1991 #232 sold for $35K just 6 years ago. Mine had same upolstry, a dogger, only 4 sails, no bowsprit. I have done composite work for many years and nothing you have there concerns me at all except grinding back and properly fixing the attempted repairs of the previous owner. Best of luck, dig in and fair winds my friend. Keep the great videos coming.
This boat, as it sits, is not worth much. You can fix it, I wouldn’t, because it’s so much work and time to get to where you thought you were the day you bought it. You could make enough money with the time saved not fixing it to give yourself more options. I’d sell it on to someone who wants a project, go out and get a nice dinner and call it a day. Just my two cents. People will say it’s not that much work, you know they are wrong, you will find more problems the first day you start disassembly. When you find yourself in a hole, stop digging.
You are a wise man, Nixon! 👍
Man you should of had an inspection done before buying. Eeep thats a massive repair. The mould alone would have me walking away.
Ya, good content coming! Cutting and repairing.. I like it!
I would question what caused the cracks in the bulkhead. They look more like a stress fracture....If indeed it is....it should be addressed. Maybe the convexed cabin sole is part of the problem.
I think this will turn out to be way more work than you anticipate and I can't imagine all of the cutting and repairing in small confined quarters. It just looks like a classic "job with no end" and i'm not sure if you'll be happy with it in the end sry :( maybe you'll prove me wrong^^
As others have said, my immediate thought when watching the video is that you will probably need to take it all out as the cracking/swelling/delamination is likely throughout the entire bilge and not just in some spots. Perhaps it is possible to get a new floor and flotation chambers as new parts from the manufacturer? As with many things in life, things are more challenging than anticipated but sailing this boat will be all the more satisfying because of it. Good luck!
Thanks for posting and sharing. Good luck with the restoration. Hard to say whether or not your boat is worth what you paid for it without a complete damage assessment. In any case getting to work on it you will become more familiar with its foibles and strengths.
Good luck with hard work and you can get it done!
Your eternal optimism and skills, I'm sure, will see you through this massive repair/refit project, and the reborn boat will be fine. Personally, I would never had gotten out of my car to look at the boat. Good luck!
If I were taking on this project I would cut out as much of the liner/sub floor as possible to get good access to the repair and then rebuild the liner. In the long run I think you would end up with a better repair and better finish. Also don't be afraid of gelcoat to finish the floor and to match up to the original. With a little practice, gelcoat is not that hard to work with.
Dollars aside sounds like you're really looking forward to the challenge!... you've addressed the working conditions, have the time so go for it! do it right eg E Evans and many others, document everything for future value and please take us along...can't wait to see her under full sail!
I’m stoked for you guys! Confident in your ability to fix her up. Consider raising the whole trailer, placing your supports and then slowly lowering the trailer until the desired relief in pressure is achieved. Worked in my home boatyard. I suppose the amas could complicate. Lots of luck!
I bought a clean Sandpiper 565 a few years ago for $1600. Moored it at a friend's cottage. Next morning, it was under water. Turned out po crashed it and just painted the bottom. Sold the trailer for $1200, sails for another $300, and the rest for a few more hundred dollars. The point is, don't get excited take the time to go through the whole boat and insist on a trial run.
The two things you have going for you is that you are not paying boat yard storage fees and it is in your own yard. You can work on it as you please and be close to you family, and the best part is that Randy is on board with the project. Most of us boaters have to balance time with boat repairs, time on the water and time with our family. Go for it everything is lined up for you.
"Not sure how long this project will take". I own a 52f ketch. The project will take 2-3 times as long as one thinks, it will cost three times more than you allow for as you either find new problems, or you decide to make improvements since you are there fixing something else.
I knew from the hull damage that you had some work cut out for you. Sounds like you have a plan. Agree that the closed cell foam core they used should help. If you dry it out you may not have to replace it, unless it is rotten. Have you talked to the manufacturer? They may have some helpful tips on how they construct things and how you should proceed. Are you planning to lay up thicker layers on that inner space? It will add weight but be safer for your family.
I think this is exactly what you need to grow your site, actually. People will find you just for the refit and hull repair of a Corsair. Look at Mads' channel "Sail Life". People said he was crazy to re-core so much of Athena, but I think it has grown his channel exponentially (that and his personality and drive for perfection, but you know what I mean).
I'm excited for you! I agree that this was a good investment. It will drive some great content and as you say, you'll probably sell it for a profit once you are done! Just, be sure to call in some help and learn to do things the right way. I'm thinking of the companionway stairs from Freebie ... ahem. Let's not repeat that again!
I think you're right, this project will help grow their channel. Corsairs are amazing but there's not a lot of content on TH-cam surrounding them, and even less content about repairing them.
I've followed the channel for 2 years but I didn't hot the notification bell until last episode when I realized they were going to be working on one of these lovely boats.
I can understand fully your issues with what will be a major rebuild for the refit as we just beginning the restoration of a Herreshoff Marco Polo that has had an extremely hard life.
We're lookin at a mimum of 5 years for the rebuild.
Compoite construction refits are a right pickle. My background before retirement was in engineering with the specialty of thermal delamination of composites. It appears that this vessel has also had an extremely hard life.
I know this was a few years ago however I just saw this pop-up for the first time so felt a fresh comment was warranted for those currently looking to buy a used boat.
With the obvious damage of cracks and humps in the liner there was no question that the hull was compromised even without looking into the bilge. When you see excess water in the bilge along with distortion inside the boat, especially one on a trailer, those are warning signs of a much, much bigger problem. The visible evidence of long term leaks in the overhead are another warning sign that maintenance was neglected for way too long.
You have to read the signs and on this one there were enough signs of a really big structural problem going on here even without a full survey. When you do the work yourself you still have to consider the value of your time that will be spent doing the repairs. Even when you get a boat like this for free its pretty easy to rack up enough value in repairs to exceed the value of the boat when you factor in your personal time. We see this all to regularly that someone gets a bargain boat worth $30,000, if purchased from a dealer in near to perfect condition with a warranty of some kind, only to find it needs $40,000 in repairs to make it seaworthy again and its still just a patched up boat perhaps worth only around $20,000 when your done. Just the cost of running a portable roll about AC unit to dry out the boat can end up costing over $200 a month depending on the climate and the mold treatment to fog the boat and actually kill all the existing mold spores such as Concrobium can cost upwards of $45 per gallon just to get things started. Renting a commercial dehumidifier which is whats really needed in situations like this can run you close to $200 per day. To bring the structure back to ocean sailing condition vacuum bagging will mostly likely have been required to get the original strength as close to fully restored as possible again adding to the cost of repair in securing the equipment and gaining the knowledge of how to use it properly.
Note that even what appears to be a superficial leak along a bulkhead at a chain plate without any sign of rot can have already caused enough pocketed corrosion of the stainless steel chain plate where it passes through the deck to bring the rig down when under sale in a stiff breeze. This will be hidden from view since pocketed corrosion happens when stainless has water (especially salt water) build up around it for an extended period of time with no air getting to it to maintain its protective patina. Chain plates depending on the boat can cost hundreds to over a thousand dollars each so even if you install them yourself its not an insignificant cost.
Price on this one should have been at least half of what was paid and the seller was probably giddy that they found a buyer who wasn't paying close enough attention and didn't get a survey done.
Again for those new to sailing and looking for a good used boat we have to call this out to help prevent others from getting similarly burned. A lot of COVID boats that were paid way to much for and in similar condition are likely about to flood the market so new buyers have to be wary of this and take the time to read the signs when looking to purchase a used boat. Just because the seller was price gouged and payed for a good boat however instead got what was pretty close to a landfill boat when they purchased it doesn't make it more valuable. Unfortunately many are going to be taken in by the outside superficial appearance and be facing similar types of labor intensive repairs. When your spending more than a few thousand dollars a basic $200/$400 survey is a good idea even if the boat looks pretty good to the casual observer.
Best!
If you guys can stay positive like this, then heck yeah! I was hoping someone would pick up a 37' Corsair project boat. What do you know? One of my favorite channels grabs a F27. I would get in touch with the manufacturer and take their advise. I'm thinking you can update with new tech etc. I would be waiting for your updated videos for sure!
This is crazy, but call back the seller and they might give you some cash back? It's worth a call.
This is crazy but maybe throw some hydro foils on the F27? I'm pretty sure one of the Corsair engineers builds Rapido's now. You'll already be refabricating the hull. Yeah, that would be sic.
Just go for it! She looks like a diamond in the rough! I'm looking forward to more videos!
That damage has come from either the trailer ( imho they should not be sitting with the load down the middle, they are not strong enough) and or having it bounced by a wave when dried on the beach or dried and they had an unlucky rock they didnt see so it got pinpoint pressure.
Cant say specifically on a F27 but the later boats C24/28 have balsa core strip down the middle to make it stronger for the trailer and that will be rotted from around the dagger board case to well aft once the water gets in.
Cut the liner out cut ( after working out how to glass it back or do away with it?) grind the inner laminate out, new balsa or hi density foam and laminate it all back with twice the original laminate spec via vacuum bagging and it will be way stronger. I have done this several times on other models.
You should find the foam starts under wher the vertical of the bunks meets the hull so thats the edge of the balsa problem and your repair, just need to see how far aft it has got wet.
They dont fail in normal use it, anyway what ever issue the hull inverts and splits the inner laminate and hence now water will slowly kill the balsa.
Pick the boat up by the middle of the beams, use blocks to ensure the weight spans the beam fore/aft as the strength is the edges, dont need to put any support under the hull, you want it to bend back to where it should be.
You will need to sand off the antifoul underneath to ensure it hasnt cracked, its a thicker laminate than the inside and in my experience it doesnt fail when the inside laminate does.
Check the top front of the dagger board as the crush load on the hull from the trailer makes that hit the updown pulley and mount and bends it. ( certainly on a 28)
I typically do the re-bedding with epoxy and then depending how you cut the floor out, I do in vinylester so you can re gelcoat the cut slot to make it as good as new.
When you have it off the trailer, look at the hull shape versus trailer support.
( buy a Fenn oscillating tool or equivilent with a diamond blade to cut the floor and inner laminate, way less dust that anything rotary.)
Since you will be making videos of the repairs, this damage may actually make you more money. Lol. It'll be great to watch so let's get started!
It's fun to read all the comments and compare them to the similar views expressed when Expedition Evans began their project. Jade & Brett made quick work of it although the initial scope appeared gargantuan. 😜
I reckon you'll do alright fixing her up. You should contact Expedition Evans & see if they're in the area. They're experts in accessing & repairing this area of the boat. A colab between you guys would be fun.
I wouldnt call them experts, theyve done it once.
Take a setback and remove/replace liner while bedding in some of your Battle Born batteries/access for electric outboard. Your home bound ship yard is a huge blessing combined with optimistic skills. Go for it. Do it right and light. Looking forward to it.
I think that the overpay issue is going to be based on how you value your time.
As several others have said, I think you should remove all of the inner liner, then repair and reinforce the outer hull, and then you would be able to fabricate a new inner liner with changes that I'm sure you would be able to envision prior to being ready for them. This may even help you find additional improvement for your "final" boat. Good Luck, God Bless and stay safe.
I think you'll be ok. Stay positive Capt.!
That is up to you, it is worth what you think it is, good luck
It is definitely repairable. You have developed the skills necessary for these repairs, so, take your time and good luck!
Thank you!
Looks like you are going to be like Colin on Parlay, cutting things out to get further inside for repair.
Then fitting the cutout pieces back.
Big job Jordon.
As a Longtime F-27 owner I doubt very highly that the problems with the main hull are related to water leaking from the pop top. It really looks like the boat took some kind of a shock to the main hull, or possible it was supported improperly on the trailer. I'm sure there is water intrusion now with all the cracks, but F-27s are pretty resilient. Also, there is also likely a strip of balsa along the keel. I really recommend contacting experts with these boats like Steve Marsh from Finish Line. Also, if the main hull is a write-off, there is a market for the beams and floats, so all is not lost.
This is why a survey is a must before purchasing any boat no matter how good it looks. Had you found this after a surveyor missed it, your boat would have been paid off.
if you want to find out how big of a job this is, and that means disassembling the interior completely, osmosis treatments, replacing bad plywood with new material, watch Sail Life with Mads from Norway. He completely rebuilds a sailboat including hull repairs like you have run into.
remove the liner and make the repairs. I would add some structural supports under the liners and then repair and reinstall the liners. Exposing everything will help in determining if the damage might be from the trailer. I would add additional trailer bunks to remove any possible stress points. I had a boat get damaged by poorly placed trailer rollers. You'll also save a lot of time and get a better stronger result exposing the inside of the hull. Watching Parlay rebuild their cat. they initially did not remove enough of the cabin structures and had to go back and cut out even more. Be glad gravity will aid in the glassing efforts. This project just convinced me to subscribe.
Oh yeah I think your deal was probably right on for what you got, my feeling is the leak, while on the hard increased the weight on the pressure points from the trailer that there was some stress cracking, I don't think there is any real damage but you'll find out as you explore the depth of those cracks, you're both young and strong 💪.
That's a big job. Definitely doable but after the first week, it will stop being fun. I'll bet some, if not all of the damage/cracking was caused by pressure points on the trailer when the water weighed it down.
As others have said, remove as much of the liner as possible to gain maximum access. If you keep it in one piece (the removed liner), it will be stronger when reinstalled. To reinstall, I would use marine plywood tabs glued on the liner underside and glass the top. Completely seal those plywood tabs with resin first.
For the hull, you may have to add a couple small bulkheads to regain the rigidity, along with a couple layers of glass. Make sure it's got the proper shape before you glass it (you may be able to verify with longitudinal battens held up to the bottom/outside of the hull). Hopefully you will be using epoxy resin and peel-ply is your friend.
Positives:
1) F-boats are extremely fun, especially for a young guy that wants to go fast. Fast is Fun. An F-boat IS NOT a cruising boat. More like a tent camper. After sailing on F-27's, I built my F-9A with a little extra height to give me standing headroom by adding crown to the deck and an extra 1" on the side walls. Back then I was 6'3"+ but have lost a little height as my disks wear away.
2) You will/should become very skilled with glassing by the time you are done. Actually, maybe becoming proficient at that skill is not a positive.
3) mount a blower sucking out the front hatch into a dust bag. I mounted the blower on plywood to seal around the hatch outline. Back then, I did not worry about dust collection, just removal from the interior.
4) Good Luck. You are going to earn this boat. (And learn it too).
What a kick in the ass! Oh, you can fix it but it will suck lol. Get your mind right and get to it. You are about to get to know this boat really good 👍🏻
I know you said you didn't want to remove the carpet but I think it is 100% necessary after seeing that there was water inside the boat for who knows how long. I would not bring my wife and child into this boat long term without being 100% sure that I had found and removed all traces of mold. Just the humidity levels inside that boat while sitting in the sun stewing will have caused mold in places you can't see.
As a novice, it's looks like one hell of an undertaking but you young folks are much more ambitious and optimistic than me.
Using my acquired skills from the university of TH-cam, I would be inclined to remove the floor, totally redesign it. That would give access to all the damage that needs to be addressed and you could make better access after by creating a new floor. You never mentioned a bilge pump!
Floor, I didn't see any floors in there do you possibly mean cabin sole?
You've got a major fix there Jordan...Try getting a hold of Total Boat and ask them about their products for these repairs! They've been great for my projects I've taken on. It is doable, but will take some elbow grease! I'm sure you're up to it! :) You're probably good money wise...just depends on your time and efforts.
Well looks like a huge project.
Had a similar failure in my Corsair which l repaired. I agree with your repair plan and, despite what some say, it is not hard. Just awkward. My repair was:
*unfold the floats and put the boat up onto stand placed under the hinge points (do the stern first by lowering the front of the trailer and then wind up the front of trailer, put in th front props). This allows the hull to go back to correct shape.
*get access to the inner hull skin and remove all the questionable fiberglass
*remove all the damaged foam core
#Dry the whole area and CONSIDER doing the repair in epoxy.
#replace the damaged core
#reglass the inner skin
#glass in some lateral ribs at critical locations going up the turn of the bilge each side and across the hull.
NB I made these by forming fibreglass over plastic pipe which l cut slots in to allow in to take the hull curve. This repair is now 9 years old and has not moved at all.
The rest is just messing around really. Good luck and remember this has been done before and was neither hard nor expensive. Just a bit messy!
I totally agree with some of the comments below. That entire crappy sole would go and do a proper refit with a lightweight sole that gives decent access to the bilge. Some ribs and braces could be installed to overcome the structural support loss.
Having extensive experience restoring: very old homes, very old cars, & very old aircraft- I can advise that sometimes taking a small $ loss early and avoiding a project can be “very”smart.
Unfortunately I’m the type of person who will finish what I start even if it makes no financial benefit at the end…thus a lot of dollars are never recovered…however I’ve learned a lot over the years about restoring cars, homes, airplanes and I make fewer mistakes now with money issues and can choose the best projects that work.
Good luck and success ahead.
As a follower of TULA's Endless Summer, who had a Brand New Corsair, they loved it, I am going to say 10 G, still a Good Price...just a little more Prep than first planned maybe, Nothing that 10 grand is going to be good to go...dont lose faith or interest...!
Many good comments here. Cut out the floor and build longitudinal braces as many others have said. But before you do anything, take it to a marina, lift it off the trailer using a travel lift inspect the bottom really closely, climb aboard, see if the sizes of the cracks change. If on the straps the hull bends run away.
As one who has recored almost an entire boat I can assure you…. The more you open the more rot you will find. I planned 3 years, I’m on year 18… Enjoyed every minute of it but do you have that long?
You know, Mads from Sail Life, whom I think you know of, started a "relatively extensive refit" on Athena 5 years ago... lol. Good luck. At least he's sailing now...
I gotta say, you have a way of finding get projects. I will enjoy following along, but next time, get a survey…if you’re ready to sail. 👍👍👍
Whether it is "worth it" depends on how you value your time. If you have it as a hobby, and who cares how much time it takes, it is still a great deal. If you put a value on your time, like even $10/hr, you should just part the boat out and buy another hull.
Run from this project, proper inspection on your part before handing the cash could have save you a boat full of money. Do not think that closed cell foam does not soak in water, it does. Just ask older Tayana 52 owners. Keep Learning the Lines you are not there yet.
To correct the bulging sole, I would install some cross framing in the bilge. And I agree with some other comments that you really need to completely open it for better access. I don't suppose you could do the repairs from the exterior under the boat. As long as you can do the work yourself, the price is reasonable, but you could never justify paying a boat yard to do it.
You are all good still…best of luck
It depends on how you value your time. This is a pain in the behind to deal with but as you’re saying it is fixable. Still a pretty cool boat.
Living around lake boats I’ve seen this more often then I’d care to admit. We call it being sunk on the trailer when people store boats & they become bathtubs full of water. It all depends on just how much work your willing to do. Myself, even after the hull is (repaired) I’d be nervous about future dry rot & mold with the upholstery. If it was mine, I’d button it back up, clean it, sell her, & move on.
You have nailed it. The boat sat full of water on the trailer. But in this case, the trailer did not support it properly. And those "thru-hulls plugged by the owner" were no doubt actually water drains to get bilge water out of a banana hull profile. Those bilge drains will have to be reinstalled at the outset. Next two steps are to rework the trailer to properly support the boat to restore hull form and then cure the water leakage problem so you can fully dry out the bilge over a few months. Consult the builder to get design drawings to get this right.
Once the hull has recovered its design shape and been thoroughly dried, I would soak in thin, slow cure epoxy into all the splits. There are products specially made for this (Got-git for example) but you can improvise your own. You may want to notch into the cracks with a sharp "V" scraping tool to open them up a bit and facilitate saturation. Follow this up with a few full width layers of roving across the bilge to reinforce the bottom as is probably being considered. And you may want to improve bulkheads to further reinforce hull profile. All of this is probably easier and less frustrating if you take out large sections of the interior liner rather than work through inspection ports. And there may be changes and interior equipment installs you could undertake to recover value of the boat. Its lots of work ... but it is also lots of material for videos.
I was going to buy a sailboat sitting on the hard in a marina. I came by once to look at it and the cockpit was full of water (plugged drains and heavy Florida rain). I calculated about a ton of extra weight. You could see the rear jack stands pushing into the hull. I never bought the boat.
While I've only been around motor boats and never involved in repairs of *any* kind. My first thought was removing as much of the fiberglss/plastic interior, to allow more room to work and expose the entire bilge area. This would give you more room to work and probably expose more area that should be repaired but you cannot see from your currently restricted viewpoint.
By opening it up you'll probably save time and do a better repair.
You got this . Have fun with it .
Huge project. You will need to replace the entire bottom by the time you are done. Good thing boat repair videos are popular on YT.
Unfortunately, looks like this is a textbook case of getting a professional inspection/survey before purchasing.
Ya everyone always says that. Sure its good to get a survey but a Survey is 2-3 hour inspection in most cases. Takes weeks months to uncover problems with boats especially big ones. Most surveys are overrated in my opinion. Unless you pay big money and do one that could take days and remove everything off the boat most people don't want to go thru that and most cruising boats are loaded with gear on the boat. Take most boat surveys as just a very general idea of condition.
Jordan, considering the work and skills you acquired from your last two boats, this will be a walk in the park.
You and Randi can do this. It seems more raw than damaged. This is not to minimize the cracks, they do need repair. Don't give up,
Survey would have exposed this, I THINK…. But sometimes surveyors do not find problems…. I definitely think $10 was too much for it, but that is because of hindsight being 20-20…. I know your diy jobs from the past are first class and like you say, the materials are not that expensive…. You will have a $30k boat in the end…. and VIDEO of the whole project for us… I am sure now I will definitely hire the best surveyor for my next used boat buy…. Thanks… love your transparent honesty! Best of luck
You know a whole lot more than I do about this sort of work, but given the extent of the damage you see, I think you'll save frustration and effort in the long run by ripping out the entire interior, including the liner. That will allow you to more easily see and address the damage you don't yet see and will probably also make mold remediation easier. You'll also be able to work at better angles and across larger areas vs. cutting a million holes in the sole that you have to reach through. It's a small and simple enough boat that taking it down to a bare hull and rebuilding the interior may be doable. But that's still a ton of work.
BTW, if you can get the hull to dry out and prevent water seepage, you could rent a fogger from a hardware store and fog the whole thing with Concrobium to kill the mold off.
I agee!!
I don't think you've been ripped off but you certainly have a lot of work ahead of you, roll up your sleeves and take your time, and do a good job. Good luck.
I was going to bring it up, but since you mentioned it, . . . You should have had the boat surveyed. They would have seen the water in the bilge and said - "Remove that water and dry things out then I'll do/complete my survey." Or, . . . you yourself should have gotten the water out and then been able to find this damage. So, I would say you wasted $10,000. But if you had gotten the boat for (MUCH) less then that wouldn't have been so bad. Finally, if you can fix it up and sell it for 3X what you paid then that would be okay. Will that happen? I'm not so sure.
This is a warning to many prospective boat buyers out there. Even with Jordan's extensive, though non-pro, experience in 'surveying' 100's of boats, it is easy to make iffy judgments and perhaps buy a 'cat in a bag'. However, about every problem can bes solved. I have the same issue with an old boat that has soaked up water from inside. It's just to start to deal with it.
I had a small place on the hull of my bass boat, where the bunk boards had rubbed off the gel coat, problem was you could not see the damage when it was on the trailer. Certainly I found out that water easily flows thru the fiberglass once the gel coat gets removed.. That being said what I discovered was that the foam core absorbed water. I ended up recovering way more than what I first thought. The other thing is it being like a sponge, it stayed wet forever. While ac is good, coming from a flooring background, I have drying equip. I put a dehumidifier on end and a blower on the other where I could cycle the air. With the use of a cover I was able stabilize the atmosphere inside and let it run for about 2 months to thoroughly dry it out . Then I chipped out a pocket of foam and replaced it with a closed cell expanding foam, leveled it out and completed the fiberglass repairs… while doing all this I saw some areas on the chine that had been rubbed so I figured I’d clean those up and re gel coat them, again when I hit it with a flapper disc on a side grinder, immediately water began pouring out from under the boat, so yeah water was definitely in places where I had no idea. I’m glad that I even checked that area so now that I’m done it’s truly protected. Good luck, and I’d suggest along with the ac put also a dehumidifier will triple your drying rate, just hook up your pump Tina hose that you can pump it directly out of your boat, your in Florida also and the relative humidity is very high, just like here in Louisiana..good luck
look like a good project coming up
Roll up your sleeves, let’s get busy! It will be very interesting to see the process, the progress and the finished product..