I feel Haze having evasion on her ult is completely fair: she cannot manually use her movement skills to dodge shots while channeling Bullet Dance, so she instead relies on "gun kata" to evade automatically that way. Would not be unfitting if player getting more stamina and movement speed items would allow her to scale and gain a tiny bit more evasion, showing that increased dexterity boosts her auto-dodging capabilities; of course, for balance this is totally not necessary. Adding to that, her model (which you're supposed to aim at) is blurry during Bullet Dance anyway, and because it's her ultimate, it is naturally very limited in how often it can be used + meant to be powerful. Any "slow attacker" is inclined to simply wait until Bullet Dance ends, then shoot her without problem. However, same cannot be said of Mirage's evasion, he simply gets it repeatedly and often just by spamming his regular skill, and he is totally able to dodge normally in addition to evasion chance. His evasion probably should be replaced with 25/45% bullet resist or such. P.S. expanding to point abt blurry model, perhaps there could be an item that specifically blurs player model while they move, making them more difficult but still possible to hit. This would be a shooter alternative to passive evasion.
100% agree. I think the fact the Haze can't use movement skills along with being tied to an ability that is going to inherently be used so infrequently makes it balanced. Not to mention, if you arive late to the fight you can see immediatly see with your eyes if Haze has evasion because she's in a big orange circle and blurred out ulting. When a Haze is ulting, both players know the cost / benefits of their decision in that next moment, even if someone arives late. With Mirage you might run into him as he's attempting to escape and get one last chance before he's headed around a corner and feel cheated that the couple bullets you got off on a seemingly exposed Mirage are actually being shot at one with a little evasion.
I still think it should just be that she has a 50% (or whatever amount) Bullet Resist, Spirit Resist, Slow Resist, etc. Having things up to RNG isn't great in any game that will probably have a competitive scene. Far better to take the same concept and apply it in a way that's more predictable/consistent. Even the crit chance in LoL/DotA isnt the best, there have been high level matches decided simply because an ADC got five lucky crits in a row while the other team didn't. At worst, imo the evasion should be predictable (e.g. every other instance is a guaranteed hit, while every other instance is a guaranteed miss - or a cycle of on-and-off 100% invulnerability that you could try to time shots or skills around, even if virtually impossible, at least it's objectively fair - there are ways to do this to make it consistent.)
Well, to be fair, this game WAS supposed to be Valve testing the waters from developing a completely new MOBA-Shooter hybrid experience, up until the cat started getting out of the bag. Of course not all of the mechanics from a MOBA won't translate into this game as much as it does with a typical top-town RTS MOBA. So yes, debates like these are always healthy for the game as it gives Valve the feedback they desire to make Deadlock the best launch it can be. Personally, evasion should not be a factor considering this game's "evasion" is already into play from being able to jump, slide, and roll around to avoid damage, there's no need for a mechanic like this.. and if Valve insists on this mechanic, there should be an ability or even an item to counter it, such as Monkey King Bar from Dota 2 where it heavily puts the chances in your favor against evasion, or even just an item that is built to disable passives entirely for a little while with one true strike to proc it, again like in Dota 2 being with Silver Edge. There's my two cents on the subject.
I'm more confused why we can't just use damage resistance, instead of multiple defensive mechanics doing roughly the same thing: directly reducing how much damage your main HP pool takes. If they really want it to make it unique, they could just have the resistance apply to shields too.
Mirage's Evasion works because of how his kit is designed: his main highest damage source is HARD capped by a time gate that only his Djinn Mark t3 partially remedies, taking a significant AP focus to get early, and still not being a fix. It only reduces the mark application timeout by .5 secs. His tornado and HP steal bugs are designed around giving him more time to stay in a fight and apply his marks so he can win the fight- basically, Mirage's damage is STRONG and COMMANDING, but he suffers greatly from being intentionally limited as a drawback. Ofc, this drawback can be remedied in the shop by buying items that give him better movement or spacing, and it makes him a Team Fight Cleaner (longer fights where he's safe to pressure, like ginnis, are his bread and butter), but he only offers so much in short bursts. At high MMR, you can be dead in a flash, so these abilities are both unique and offer him the sustain and getaway tools he NEEDS to make his 3 really shine. It's pretty neat. also the way the mark works has really cool synergies with certain proc items in the shop like surge of power, mystic slow, and QS. TL;DR His gameplay fantasy is Mark Stacking, and his other Tools support it. (his ullt lets him show up when he's needed to stack de marks and help the team)
@@WHAT_TAHW I've played a lot of him and I disagree, it actually works pretty well, but I think could use a few tweaks. He's all about being an overwhelming presence that steals, ccs, and rewards good aim and consistency for INSANE dmg potential.
i wouldnt mind if evasion didnt work against headshots, thats actually a really good idea and would bring more unique gimmicks to deadlock against the moba genre
Evasion main uses in game like this one is mainly to reduce on-hit effect, wich is a very valuable perk. Most stacked on hit effect don't really have a counter beside reduced duration and it doesn't pan out well when a single bullet can reset the duration during fights.
deadlock is my first moba so i don't know how prevalent this mechanic is outside of deadlock but in a shooter game i feel it really doesn't make much sense without the evasion providing HEAVY downsides.
Yeah, same with a lucky shot. They should just make them base flat damage reductions and damage buffs, respectively hell id rather a item that makes your player model and hitboxes smaller
@@jkljosh7392 Then it wouldn't be called Lucky Shot you dingus. If you don't want RNG, don't buy the item. The user is the one risking it. It's a literal risk and rewaard item that you can opt out not to use.
@Nif-kun it's not about risk. There is no risk with a lucky shot given that the amount for fire rate most characters have makes it proc almost instantly most of the time, my point is that I don't get the point of it compared to a more consistent system.
I can see evasion being good in cetrain contexts. With Haze for instance, it doesn't bother me too much, as I really have no business shooting her at that point anyway, and this helps her survive while she's slow and in the open. However, I think a character should never have full control over his movement and abilities with an evasion chance. Like you said, making them fast and unpredictable is the way to do this in a shooter. Let players build Overwatch Lucio instead of randomly evading stuff.
11:35 This interaction here is already present in Deadlock in the form of Vindicta's T4. Haze's T4 and Mirage T1 have a chance to dodge a bullseye Vindicta's T4 thanks to the evasion stat, AND IT'S FUCKIN FRUSTRATING, imagine dieing to a low health Haze T4 just because your snipe went right through her.
Bullet evasion should not be a purchasable stat, but there are other stats which arent directly bullet evasion, but work similarly, resistance, extra dashes, movement speed, and if we had a reverse colossus. All of these either makes you harder to hit, or get hit for less, maybe if we have an item like grapple from Widowmaker, maybe rescue beam would work like that if cast on self.
Having a moba bg i remember rhe moment i played against mirage and learned he had evasion i said "knowing from moba's i played i would not be surprised if Mirage's evasion would become bullet resistance" Dodge can be EXTREMELY hard to balance.
i feel like mirage's evasion is actually decent, unlike haze's. It doesn't feel like it lasts ages and isn't that oppressive, being able to damage him during it is not as important too. to add to that, Seven gets bullet resist in his ult, and haze gets evasion as a thematically more fitting alternative, which is nice even if it feels off and probably shouldn't exist
As a form of "evasion", what if they added items that reduced the player hitbox size and items that increased the hitreg area of your bullets? The bullets already come with a rather generous amount of hitreg area so reducing the player's hitbox size would make players need to actually place their reticle over the enemy.
I think it's good "backup defence addons mechanic" for low hp stationary heroes like always. Since if only armor you basically had no ehp to tank, no matter what build you do, since your ehp still below than other heroes. so evasion is kinda like an addons defence, then they can tweak the number for specific heroes or items. Atm this game had big burst damage from spirit or magic, so evasion is still counterable, and we have burst dmg from firerates or attack speed as well since any heroes can build dmg and sustain at the sometimes. I think you overlook only on word "evasion" rather than the mechanic itself and the reason behind it. and tbh if they will add more evasion in the game either from heroes or items, it mean the counter items or heroes will come to the game. so it's like an ease introduction type of thing. One more thing, I think they use the same evasion mechanic as in Dota, if not then they will change it in the future.
So first off a small correction: evasion doesn't screw over slow attackers more, it just gives them greater variance. You have an equal chance to get lucky and not miss a shot as you do to get unlucky and miss multiple shots, so slow attackers are not hurt more by evasion than resistance, they just will have more variance. Now you can maybe make the case that it screws over the player experience of slower fire rate characters, because players will notice and remember the times they got unlucky over the times they got lucky, but it doesn't make them worse or less viable outside of the highest levels of coordinated play, where consistency is valued much more highly. Also the impetus for buying attack speed on slower attacking characters in dota has nothing to do with rng mechanics, it's just that mathematically you get more dps by buying attack speed when you have high damage and vice versa. The point of "you can physically avoid bullets so there shouldn't be a stat to avoid them" is...kinda weird. Like, yeah having a shot land and getting 0 feedback would be bad, but you can just introduce some kind of tactile feedback, like a wooshing sound effect or something, to evaded shots to essentially nullify this problem, and at that point it's more of a thematics/immersion issue. That's not to say it's not a valid point, or that it's not important, but that it's not as much of a mechanics issue as it seems to presented here. This is just "If I hit my shot I want to be rewarded" and all that needs is a visceral enough effect on an evaded shot to trick your brain into thinking you did something, at which point it'll be almost indistinguishable from just losing out on damage due to resistance stats outside of fringe cases where low fire rate characters get exceptionally unlucky. From a mechanical standpoint bullet evasion could have a place as another form of defense, though. Granted, I'm still basing this off my largely unsupported understanding of bullet evasion as "completely avoids the effects of shots from a gun," so I could be wrong (though I think that's probably an accurate assessment). Working with that definition, evasion could work well as a counter to heroes/items with extra on hit effects, like Vindicta or Infernus or Telsa Bullets while having no effect on non-bullet based abilities and melee, giving it a meaningful distinction from simple bullet resistance. On top of this, bullet evasion would provide another defensive stat to balance around, which ironically could be used to make the game more balanced as it gives another tool for fine tuning. Not to mention it could provide additional strategy based around item timings and hero specific counters, similar to how it works in dota. For a dota example, think of how a Butterfly purchase can give a powerful timing window to play around before the enemy is able to build mkb, which can in turn be countered by aware enemies who notice or predict the bfly purchase and itemize pre-emptively. Or how a Butterfly purchase provides a higher value defensive option than armor vs CK, a hero who really doesn't want to buy MKB, but only on heroes that don't mind purchasing a butterfly. This same concept could be applied to deadlock, where evasion items, depending on their cost, evasion stat, and build efficiency, could function as a situationally powerful defensive stat that (assuming a counter item similar to MKB was added) would also be more counterable than purchasing straight resistances. Now to be clear, I don't think purchaseable bullet evasion SHOULD be added; the game is fine without it. It also has the potential to be mishandled and rng mechanics, even if 100% mechanically fair and balanced, can have a negative effect on player experience just due to how our stupid monkey brains process it. HOWEVER, I also don't think bullet evasion is inherently bad for the game. I've already stated the reasons above but for a quick TLDR: it has unique mechanical benefits for some situations and in other situations will be functionally indistinguishable from bullet resistance as a simple way to reduce bullet damage, and will likely only have a negative impact on the player experience (not the viability) of slower firing characters and even then only in the small percentage of cases where they get exceptionally unlucky and miss a kill as a result. Oh, and as of now the majority of the cast has a viable, if not outright meta, spirit build they can use that makes their gun damage matter much less and who thus wouldn't be overly bothered by evasion with that build.
I agree. Deadlock's evasion mechanic is the dash. In Dota/League, you can't dodge autoattacks. You can disjoint them, or maybe outrun them, but it can't be dodged. In Deadlock, you dodge autoattacks, or just attacks rather, by moving. Mobility has an inverse correlation with damage received. That's not entirely true in traditional MOBAs, true in Deadlock. Instead of adding evasion mechanics, it would be better to just add more mobility options, because that is how you evade in this game.
I think that instead of Haze having evasion, her model could teleport once or twice per second in a small area. You can still shoot her, but it's harder because you have to adjust your aim so much. Literal evasion.
It certainly feels less like a 50% chance to dodge, and more so a 50% chance to not take damage. Which both lead to the same result, but the wording always bothered me.
I would just remove the mechanic completely and just add Bullet Resist in its place for Haze and Mirage, just like how they added Bullet Resist to Seven's ult recently.
Everyone's fire rate is so fast, or they fire multiple bullets at a time,. that I feel like it works out. Evasion is basically just a bullet resistance that cannot be reduced by bullet resist reduction. Yes if a slow firing hero came out it could become a problem. However it doesn't seem like Valve wants to go in that direction.
Evasion not working against Headshots is actually a great idea and would make aim slightly more important in this game Hope you posted your feedback & suggestions about it in the forums already since that's where the devs most often get their feedback from
Mirage's evasion should have animation like the bullet passes through his body as his body becomes partly sand after turning into a sand tornado Haze's evasion should have animation where her bods phases through reality and we see wisps of smoke If they ever add evasion on items, it should be an active with good visibility via effects, animations, and sounds
Time and a place for everything. I completely agree that this current implementation of evasion does not belong in a game like Deadlock. I share the same sentiment with hard CC mechanics in a game like Team Fortress 2. For example, a weapon like the Natascha (which has a 100% chance to slow a target upon hit) allows a potentially new player to immediately dampen a more seasoned player, who may or may not have mastery of the game's mechanics. People who've taken the time and effort into learning how to get good at a game's mechanics should not have their skillset automatically negated simply because a certain weapon's mechanic is hard-coded to do just that. A new player who wields the Natascha only needs to land one shot in order to suddenly slow down a player's movement. Bringing it back to moba's, having an evasion mechanic in a more traditional moba makes sense because it simulates that real world factor of missing your shots (since none of us are perfect). But since Deadlock is also a shooter, it allows room for players to make those mistakes for themselves, rather than having an in-built mechanic to make it for them. Imagine building the muscle memory to aim effectively, through trial and error, and then all of a sudden, little to none of your shots land on a player simply because a game mechanic states that they "didn't land". Evasion already exists in a shooter in the form of *movement*. Going up against an enemy who's good at aiming only incentivizes players to master a game's movement mechanics even more so, which is especially great for a game like Deadlock, considering the true potential of its movement.
I'm pretty much fine with evasion honestly, I like the more casual feeling of deadlock compared to extreme sweating of desperately hitting every shot. as long as it doesnt become an overused mechanic of a lot of kits, im fine with it existing.
Yeah sure, until you lose to the enemy because evasion make your shots miss and their shots doesn't miss. Also luck mechanics like this is arguably the worst way of making any game more casual, you can just not forced to get 1000 or more MMR and playing the character and item sets that have highest win rate by not rewarding sweaty gameplay, for example Unranked mode, your real life income or fame isn't tied to how much you win like profesional players in e-sports, etc. And having those implemented doesn't make anyone angry because people have control to choose whether or not elos based matchmaking are enabled or their income depend on how well they do in a game or other job.
In dota, they use something called "pseduo random number generation". Every time you miss due to evasion, your next shot has a higher chance to hit. It averages out to the listed percentage chance.
i dont like the whole stacking multiplicatively until you get a proc of dodge chance. it feels so pointless, like you build dodge chance for a chance to dodge, but then the game artificailly boosts or stops you from evading attacks based on if you did it before or if you havent done it in a while. just pointless
I mean it really doesn't bother me much because I view the game first and foremost as a Moba so evasion has just a sort of natural thing I've seen in many games over the years and doesn't bother me. But it sound like maybe they should create some sort of visual effect that creates transparent moving "bubbles" on an enemy that allow bullets to pass through without harming the character. As far as the intricacies of such a thing I couldn't say but for the luck whiners I think it's a fair enough solution.
I once saw a Mirage avoiding damage from Geist's swap with his tornado (Geist got healed, Mirage wasn't damaged), but I think it was due to Iframes on his tornado.
@DrNiradino that's very interesting, played a game this morning and I shiv ult'ed paradox but her ult negated my damage so i know disjointing abilities is still a thing
Yeah, evasion simply cannot exist on a shooter. You can argue with Moba, but if your games is a hybrid of genre you need to properly address the pro and cons that come with each genre.
The argument that evasion inherently favors fast attackers over slower ones with the example of the slower attacker missing his shots hurting him more makes 0 mathematical sense. The entire point of a slower firing character is that your shots have more impact, so it's more important that you hit them. Two characters with the same exact dps and accuracy will do the same damage to their opponent, with evasion or not. While I don't believe that evasion is an especially good idea for a shooter, that argument is just not it. Also there's something to be said about counter-play to evasion via mechanics being a viable route the game could take, such as how melee has 100% accuracy against targets with evasion, since evasion only affects bullets, but not abilities (such as kudzu bomb), items (such as decay), and again melee.
Each bullet is more impactful, which is exactly why slow firing characters get screwed over more. If you get unlucky and miss two in a row, which is possible even with PRD, you just lose out on a ton of DPS because unlucky. Tho I probably should have included mag size in the discussion, as smaller mag characters would also get screwed if they miss shots before reload.
@@Skeletontigerwe're not working on an infinite scale though. Missing 1/30 of your total teamfight output is much more devastating than 1/200 as mcginnis
@@RealLukifer This is the real point. Yes mathematically evasion evens out damage regardless of fire rate, but I'm talking about practice here. There will be cases where the player misses out on a huge chunk of damage just because they miss a single shot that was on target. In that time, your target escapes or kills you outright, and situations like that feel horrible and you feel robbed of counterplay options. Teamfights, and with them, entire games, could ride on a luck check, which doesn't really fit for an aim-based game.
@@Skeletontiger Over an entire game sure, but in a single fight it could be a big deal. Let's take a very extreme case, you run up to someone with 10hp left. P1 does 25 dmg every 5 seconds, P2 does 5 damage every 1 second, both 5 dps. Both miss one shot. P1 must wait 5 seconds before they can try again. P2 shoots twice more and finishes in 3 seconds. P1 is practically 60% worse off.
I'm not following a build in the video, I'm just going with whatever--and I do this for every character. It's not an optimal way to play, but I do this to help myself become more familiar with items while I'm still learning the game.
"Dota" "A little bit of randomness" I've mainly played the original mod, and honestly can't attest to what Dota 2 in now, but DotA always had an absurd level of randomness. From multiple artifacts having chance based effects that could chain together in a streak of bad luck (perma stun, multiple crits in a row), to characters with high crit numbers on a low chance to proc and characters that can cast their spells multiple times simply due to chance, Dota always had an unhealthy amount of randomness. It's a same things as "no concede button" - Icefrog wants it in the game, and he'll die on this hill no matter how detrimential this mechanics to overall game expirience.
Woah, woah, I don't think heavy hitting slow firing characters deserve a place in deadlock. All guns should fire no slower than 2 bullets a second unless it's a shotgun.
the biggest trap is thinking deadlock is a "fast pace shooter" it's still a moba the long term thinking is much more rewarded; if you lose your lane early (
Regarding the evasion headshot thing, if thats true evasion should become 100% then headshots deal normal bodyshot damage not headshot damage. To me that sounds like the best way to have evasion still be a damage reducer and thus useful against the high skill players
u want with this idea that it become 100% aim game while its not there is spirt ability that can be used a lot when dealing with evasion. the thing is the game NEED evasion as an item not just within ability.
ngl the game is fun af but i dont have high hopes for the balancing state of it. when you have characters like kelvin and infernus out dpsing and outhealing everything on their path. mirages autos that slow you since the 1st minute. dumb decisions imo
Sorry to bring in reality, this is valve's game and they don't care what players want. If icefrog wants evasion in this game then so be it. No one can stop that. Also in Dota evasion is useless, same as in Deadlock if you get wombo combo. I am sure even if you have 100% evasion in Deadlock you will still die from other million things.
Now this is just a silly take that doesn't reflect reality at all. Deadlock's literally in playtest because they're trying to get player feedback and generate discussion. If the game were already perfect and release-ready, we'd have skins by now.
@@Acex2ron Incase you don't know... Dota2 is still in Beta. LOL. Also getting the feedback from the players or not, all they need is in game data and thats all. Players are stupid at giving suggestions due to bias. Icefrog is just beyond us all. He doesn't need our feedback. Just play the game is all he asked.
evasion belongs in this game just as much as random crits belong in tf2 - they fucking dont rng mechanics dont belong in shooters take a look at recoil - many games have random recoil, but valve realized that this is bullshit and so cs go has fixed recoil patterns
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I feel Haze having evasion on her ult is completely fair: she cannot manually use her movement skills to dodge shots while channeling Bullet Dance, so she instead relies on "gun kata" to evade automatically that way. Would not be unfitting if player getting more stamina and movement speed items would allow her to scale and gain a tiny bit more evasion, showing that increased dexterity boosts her auto-dodging capabilities; of course, for balance this is totally not necessary. Adding to that, her model (which you're supposed to aim at) is blurry during Bullet Dance anyway, and because it's her ultimate, it is naturally very limited in how often it can be used + meant to be powerful. Any "slow attacker" is inclined to simply wait until Bullet Dance ends, then shoot her without problem.
However, same cannot be said of Mirage's evasion, he simply gets it repeatedly and often just by spamming his regular skill, and he is totally able to dodge normally in addition to evasion chance. His evasion probably should be replaced with 25/45% bullet resist or such.
P.S. expanding to point abt blurry model, perhaps there could be an item that specifically blurs player model while they move, making them more difficult but still possible to hit. This would be a shooter alternative to passive evasion.
100% agree. I think the fact the Haze can't use movement skills along with being tied to an ability that is going to inherently be used so infrequently makes it balanced. Not to mention, if you arive late to the fight you can see immediatly see with your eyes if Haze has evasion because she's in a big orange circle and blurred out ulting. When a Haze is ulting, both players know the cost / benefits of their decision in that next moment, even if someone arives late. With Mirage you might run into him as he's attempting to escape and get one last chance before he's headed around a corner and feel cheated that the couple bullets you got off on a seemingly exposed Mirage are actually being shot at one with a little evasion.
I still think it should just be that she has a 50% (or whatever amount) Bullet Resist, Spirit Resist, Slow Resist, etc.
Having things up to RNG isn't great in any game that will probably have a competitive scene. Far better to take the same concept and apply it in a way that's more predictable/consistent. Even the crit chance in LoL/DotA isnt the best, there have been high level matches decided simply because an ADC got five lucky crits in a row while the other team didn't.
At worst, imo the evasion should be predictable (e.g. every other instance is a guaranteed hit, while every other instance is a guaranteed miss - or a cycle of on-and-off 100% invulnerability that you could try to time shots or skills around, even if virtually impossible, at least it's objectively fair - there are ways to do this to make it consistent.)
Mirages evasion is for like less than half a second
@@bigwebsite727 It's literally 3,5 seconds. Can you not read?
@@VioIetteMolotov Pipe down
Well, to be fair, this game WAS supposed to be Valve testing the waters from developing a completely new MOBA-Shooter hybrid experience, up until the cat started getting out of the bag. Of course not all of the mechanics from a MOBA won't translate into this game as much as it does with a typical top-town RTS MOBA. So yes, debates like these are always healthy for the game as it gives Valve the feedback they desire to make Deadlock the best launch it can be.
Personally, evasion should not be a factor considering this game's "evasion" is already into play from being able to jump, slide, and roll around to avoid damage, there's no need for a mechanic like this.. and if Valve insists on this mechanic, there should be an ability or even an item to counter it, such as Monkey King Bar from Dota 2 where it heavily puts the chances in your favor against evasion, or even just an item that is built to disable passives entirely for a little while with one true strike to proc it, again like in Dota 2 being with Silver Edge.
There's my two cents on the subject.
I'm more confused why we can't just use damage resistance, instead of multiple defensive mechanics doing roughly the same thing: directly reducing how much damage your main HP pool takes. If they really want it to make it unique, they could just have the resistance apply to shields too.
@Appletank8 well, resist and ignore damage is pretty different things
@@bullatognya5480 Yes, but the purpose is similar, and one is less frustrating to fight against for low ROF heroes.
"refuse to buy metal skin" guy named silencer:
Silence doesn't stop channeling abilities?
Or did I miss a patch note?
@@bullatognya5480Curse
@@bullatognya5480 i mean why would you need silence to counter haze when return fire exists
Only Curse stops items.
@@brynjo12 Return fire works very poorly against Haze, because you don't have the passive that Haze has
Mirage's Evasion works because of how his kit is designed: his main highest damage source is HARD capped by a time gate that only his Djinn Mark t3 partially remedies, taking a significant AP focus to get early, and still not being a fix. It only reduces the mark application timeout by .5 secs.
His tornado and HP steal bugs are designed around giving him more time to stay in a fight and apply his marks so he can win the fight- basically, Mirage's damage is STRONG and COMMANDING, but he suffers greatly from being intentionally limited as a drawback.
Ofc, this drawback can be remedied in the shop by buying items that give him better movement or spacing, and it makes him a Team Fight Cleaner (longer fights where he's safe to pressure, like ginnis, are his bread and butter), but he only offers so much in short bursts.
At high MMR, you can be dead in a flash, so these abilities are both unique and offer him the sustain and getaway tools he NEEDS to make his 3 really shine. It's pretty neat.
also the way the mark works has really cool synergies with certain proc items in the shop like surge of power, mystic slow, and QS.
TL;DR His gameplay fantasy is Mark Stacking, and his other Tools support it. (his ullt lets him show up when he's needed to stack de marks and help the team)
I just think that mirage was released a little tad too early, his entire kit feels under cooked
@@WHAT_TAHW I've played a lot of him and I disagree, it actually works pretty well, but I think could use a few tweaks. He's all about being an overwhelming presence that steals, ccs, and rewards good aim and consistency for INSANE dmg potential.
"his main highest damage source is HARD capped by a time gate that only his Djinn Mark t3 partially remedies"
someone isn't playing melee mirage.
i wouldnt mind if evasion didnt work against headshots, thats actually a really good idea and would bring more unique gimmicks to deadlock against the moba genre
This is a good change I support as a classic Moba head. I like Evasion and translating it to Deadlock is difficult.
Yeah I'm not completely against this idea.
I like the idea, but in the case of haze ulting...
Evasion main uses in game like this one is mainly to reduce on-hit effect, wich is a very valuable perk. Most stacked on hit effect don't really have a counter beside reduced duration and it doesn't pan out well when a single bullet can reset the duration during fights.
deadlock is my first moba so i don't know how prevalent this mechanic is outside of deadlock but in a shooter game i feel it really doesn't make much sense without the evasion providing HEAVY downsides.
Oh yeah, evasion feels incredibly out of place in a game as consistent with mechanics, numbers etc as deadlock
Yeah, same with a lucky shot. They should just make them base flat damage reductions and damage buffs, respectively hell id rather a item that makes your player model and hitboxes smaller
@jkljosh7392 They could simply make it so that every third bullet against the same target applies Lucky Shot. No need for RNG.
@@lukkkasz323 ^^^^^
@@jkljosh7392
Then it wouldn't be called Lucky Shot you dingus. If you don't want RNG, don't buy the item. The user is the one risking it. It's a literal risk and rewaard item that you can opt out not to use.
@Nif-kun it's not about risk. There is no risk with a lucky shot given that the amount for fire rate most characters have makes it proc almost instantly most of the time, my point is that I don't get the point of it compared to a more consistent system.
I can see evasion being good in cetrain contexts. With Haze for instance, it doesn't bother me too much, as I really have no business shooting her at that point anyway, and this helps her survive while she's slow and in the open. However, I think a character should never have full control over his movement and abilities with an evasion chance.
Like you said, making them fast and unpredictable is the way to do this in a shooter. Let players build Overwatch Lucio instead of randomly evading stuff.
11:35 This interaction here is already present in Deadlock in the form of Vindicta's T4. Haze's T4 and Mirage T1 have a chance to dodge a bullseye Vindicta's T4 thanks to the evasion stat, AND IT'S FUCKIN FRUSTRATING, imagine dieing to a low health Haze T4 just because your snipe went right through her.
Well you see an ulting low hp haze, you either risk it to get bonus souls, or just kill her with your weapon?
Vindicta's ult is not a bullet, it's a spell. Bullet evasion cannot dodge it.
Bullet evasion should not be a purchasable stat, but there are other stats which arent directly bullet evasion, but work similarly, resistance, extra dashes, movement speed, and if we had a reverse colossus. All of these either makes you harder to hit, or get hit for less, maybe if we have an item like grapple from Widowmaker, maybe rescue beam would work like that if cast on self.
Having a moba bg i remember rhe moment i played against mirage and learned he had evasion i said "knowing from moba's i played i would not be surprised if Mirage's evasion would become bullet resistance"
Dodge can be EXTREMELY hard to balance.
i feel like mirage's evasion is actually decent, unlike haze's. It doesn't feel like it lasts ages and isn't that oppressive, being able to damage him during it is not as important too.
to add to that, Seven gets bullet resist in his ult, and haze gets evasion as a thematically more fitting alternative, which is nice even if it feels off and probably shouldn't exist
But what if the item isn't just a single line of text and has more than one use?
As a form of "evasion", what if they added items that reduced the player hitbox size and items that increased the hitreg area of your bullets? The bullets already come with a rather generous amount of hitreg area so reducing the player's hitbox size would make players need to actually place their reticle over the enemy.
how fast did you get ur first sponsor, damm. Thats crazy
All thanks to consistent commentors and community members like yourself!
I think items buff a shot on cd should be undodgable like mystic shot, restorative shot etc
I think it's good "backup defence addons mechanic" for low hp stationary heroes like always. Since if only armor you basically had no ehp to tank, no matter what build you do, since your ehp still below than other heroes. so evasion is kinda like an addons defence, then they can tweak the number for specific heroes or items.
Atm this game had big burst damage from spirit or magic, so evasion is still counterable, and we have burst dmg from firerates or attack speed as well since any heroes can build dmg and sustain at the sometimes.
I think you overlook only on word "evasion" rather than the mechanic itself and the reason behind it. and tbh if they will add more evasion in the game either from heroes or items, it mean the counter items or heroes will come to the game. so it's like an ease introduction type of thing.
One more thing, I think they use the same evasion mechanic as in Dota, if not then they will change it in the future.
The Headshot idea is great its also easy to compensate for the "useless in top level lobbies"
So first off a small correction: evasion doesn't screw over slow attackers more, it just gives them greater variance. You have an equal chance to get lucky and not miss a shot as you do to get unlucky and miss multiple shots, so slow attackers are not hurt more by evasion than resistance, they just will have more variance. Now you can maybe make the case that it screws over the player experience of slower fire rate characters, because players will notice and remember the times they got unlucky over the times they got lucky, but it doesn't make them worse or less viable outside of the highest levels of coordinated play, where consistency is valued much more highly.
Also the impetus for buying attack speed on slower attacking characters in dota has nothing to do with rng mechanics, it's just that mathematically you get more dps by buying attack speed when you have high damage and vice versa.
The point of "you can physically avoid bullets so there shouldn't be a stat to avoid them" is...kinda weird. Like, yeah having a shot land and getting 0 feedback would be bad, but you can just introduce some kind of tactile feedback, like a wooshing sound effect or something, to evaded shots to essentially nullify this problem, and at that point it's more of a thematics/immersion issue. That's not to say it's not a valid point, or that it's not important, but that it's not as much of a mechanics issue as it seems to presented here. This is just "If I hit my shot I want to be rewarded" and all that needs is a visceral enough effect on an evaded shot to trick your brain into thinking you did something, at which point it'll be almost indistinguishable from just losing out on damage due to resistance stats outside of fringe cases where low fire rate characters get exceptionally unlucky.
From a mechanical standpoint bullet evasion could have a place as another form of defense, though. Granted, I'm still basing this off my largely unsupported understanding of bullet evasion as "completely avoids the effects of shots from a gun," so I could be wrong (though I think that's probably an accurate assessment). Working with that definition, evasion could work well as a counter to heroes/items with extra on hit effects, like Vindicta or Infernus or Telsa Bullets while having no effect on non-bullet based abilities and melee, giving it a meaningful distinction from simple bullet resistance.
On top of this, bullet evasion would provide another defensive stat to balance around, which ironically could be used to make the game more balanced as it gives another tool for fine tuning. Not to mention it could provide additional strategy based around item timings and hero specific counters, similar to how it works in dota. For a dota example, think of how a Butterfly purchase can give a powerful timing window to play around before the enemy is able to build mkb, which can in turn be countered by aware enemies who notice or predict the bfly purchase and itemize pre-emptively. Or how a Butterfly purchase provides a higher value defensive option than armor vs CK, a hero who really doesn't want to buy MKB, but only on heroes that don't mind purchasing a butterfly. This same concept could be applied to deadlock, where evasion items, depending on their cost, evasion stat, and build efficiency, could function as a situationally powerful defensive stat that (assuming a counter item similar to MKB was added) would also be more counterable than purchasing straight resistances.
Now to be clear, I don't think purchaseable bullet evasion SHOULD be added; the game is fine without it. It also has the potential to be mishandled and rng mechanics, even if 100% mechanically fair and balanced, can have a negative effect on player experience just due to how our stupid monkey brains process it. HOWEVER, I also don't think bullet evasion is inherently bad for the game. I've already stated the reasons above but for a quick TLDR: it has unique mechanical benefits for some situations and in other situations will be functionally indistinguishable from bullet resistance as a simple way to reduce bullet damage, and will likely only have a negative impact on the player experience (not the viability) of slower firing characters and even then only in the small percentage of cases where they get exceptionally unlucky and miss a kill as a result.
Oh, and as of now the majority of the cast has a viable, if not outright meta, spirit build they can use that makes their gun damage matter much less and who thus wouldn't be overly bothered by evasion with that build.
I agree. Deadlock's evasion mechanic is the dash. In Dota/League, you can't dodge autoattacks. You can disjoint them, or maybe outrun them, but it can't be dodged. In Deadlock, you dodge autoattacks, or just attacks rather, by moving. Mobility has an inverse correlation with damage received. That's not entirely true in traditional MOBAs, true in Deadlock. Instead of adding evasion mechanics, it would be better to just add more mobility options, because that is how you evade in this game.
I think that instead of Haze having evasion, her model could teleport once or twice per second in a small area. You can still shoot her, but it's harder because you have to adjust your aim so much. Literal evasion.
It certainly feels less like a 50% chance to dodge, and more so a 50% chance to not take damage. Which both lead to the same result, but the wording always bothered me.
Funnily I haven't found any problem with Mirage as Geist. He just melts if he couldn't burst her down in time.
Where is Haze's head when she ults?
I would just remove the mechanic completely and just add Bullet Resist in its place for Haze and Mirage, just like how they added Bullet Resist to Seven's ult recently.
Everyone's fire rate is so fast, or they fire multiple bullets at a time,. that I feel like it works out. Evasion is basically just a bullet resistance that cannot be reduced by bullet resist reduction. Yes if a slow firing hero came out it could become a problem. However it doesn't seem like Valve wants to go in that direction.
Evasion not working against Headshots is actually a great idea and would make aim slightly more important in this game
Hope you posted your feedback & suggestions about it in the forums already since that's where the devs most often get their feedback from
Mirage's evasion should have animation like the bullet passes through his body as his body becomes partly sand after turning into a sand tornado
Haze's evasion should have animation where her bods phases through reality and we see wisps of smoke
If they ever add evasion on items, it should be an active with good visibility via effects, animations, and sounds
Time and a place for everything. I completely agree that this current implementation of evasion does not belong in a game like Deadlock. I share the same sentiment with hard CC mechanics in a game like Team Fortress 2. For example, a weapon like the Natascha (which has a 100% chance to slow a target upon hit) allows a potentially new player to immediately dampen a more seasoned player, who may or may not have mastery of the game's mechanics. People who've taken the time and effort into learning how to get good at a game's mechanics should not have their skillset automatically negated simply because a certain weapon's mechanic is hard-coded to do just that. A new player who wields the Natascha only needs to land one shot in order to suddenly slow down a player's movement.
Bringing it back to moba's, having an evasion mechanic in a more traditional moba makes sense because it simulates that real world factor of missing your shots (since none of us are perfect). But since Deadlock is also a shooter, it allows room for players to make those mistakes for themselves, rather than having an in-built mechanic to make it for them. Imagine building the muscle memory to aim effectively, through trial and error, and then all of a sudden, little to none of your shots land on a player simply because a game mechanic states that they "didn't land". Evasion already exists in a shooter in the form of *movement*. Going up against an enemy who's good at aiming only incentivizes players to master a game's movement mechanics even more so, which is especially great for a game like Deadlock, considering the true potential of its movement.
6:13 Smallest Haze soul sphere
I'm pretty much fine with evasion honestly, I like the more casual feeling of deadlock compared to extreme sweating of desperately hitting every shot. as long as it doesnt become an overused mechanic of a lot of kits, im fine with it existing.
Yeah sure, until you lose to the enemy because evasion make your shots miss and their shots doesn't miss. Also luck mechanics like this is arguably the worst way of making any game more casual, you can just not forced to get 1000 or more MMR and playing the character and item sets that have highest win rate by not rewarding sweaty gameplay, for example Unranked mode, your real life income or fame isn't tied to how much you win like profesional players in e-sports, etc.
And having those implemented doesn't make anyone angry because people have control to choose whether or not elos based matchmaking are enabled or their income depend on how well they do in a game or other job.
10:50 maybe if headshots that would be evaded instead deal like bodyshot damage
theres already lucky shot and tesla bullets which is the same hting
In dota, they use something called "pseduo random number generation". Every time you miss due to evasion, your next shot has a higher chance to hit. It averages out to the listed percentage chance.
@@Lactosecow He says that in the video
I also watched the video and used my ears
@@wolter6102 I stopped watching after that sponsorship
Would love Seven next
i dont like the whole stacking multiplicatively until you get a proc of dodge chance. it feels so pointless, like you build dodge chance for a chance to dodge, but then the game artificailly boosts or stops you from evading attacks based on if you did it before or if you havent done it in a while. just pointless
Evasion makes sense on haze ult imo. Idk abt mirage tho
I think its completely fine, they just need to add an "evade" text in place of a damage number when damage gets evaded
Wait thats not mirage or haze
I mean it really doesn't bother me much because I view the game first and foremost as a Moba so evasion has just a sort of natural thing I've seen in many games over the years and doesn't bother me. But it sound like maybe they should create some sort of visual effect that creates transparent moving "bubbles" on an enemy that allow bullets to pass through without harming the character. As far as the intricacies of such a thing I couldn't say but for the luck whiners I think it's a fair enough solution.
Its ok as long as its on abilities and not items imo
I'm wondering if Vindictus ult can be evaded, It's gonna feel real bad to get cs:go'd
To my knowledge, it’s counted as an ability so it doesn’t! But I could be wrong
it can
I shot low haze with my ult 3 times and first two didnt do shit
if I didnt have additional charge item I would not have killed her even tho she was low already
I once saw a Mirage avoiding damage from Geist's swap with his tornado (Geist got healed, Mirage wasn't damaged), but I think it was due to Iframes on his tornado.
@DrNiradino that's very interesting, played a game this morning and I shiv ult'ed paradox but her ult negated my damage so i know disjointing abilities is still a thing
masterful sponsor segue ngl
Just give them a flat damge resistance. Haze 20 percent. Mirage 35 at max level
There is an anti evasion item in dota tho
Yeah, evasion simply cannot exist on a shooter. You can argue with Moba, but if your games is a hybrid of genre you need to properly address the pro and cons that come with each genre.
Evasion trully will be horrible in the game, but I think crit chance will be somehow worse I REALLY hope crit chance doesn't come to the game
Wait.. league doesnt have 'evasion" mechanic ? lmao
The argument that evasion inherently favors fast attackers over slower ones with the example of the slower attacker missing his shots hurting him more makes 0 mathematical sense. The entire point of a slower firing character is that your shots have more impact, so it's more important that you hit them. Two characters with the same exact dps and accuracy will do the same damage to their opponent, with evasion or not. While I don't believe that evasion is an especially good idea for a shooter, that argument is just not it. Also there's something to be said about counter-play to evasion via mechanics being a viable route the game could take, such as how melee has 100% accuracy against targets with evasion, since evasion only affects bullets, but not abilities (such as kudzu bomb), items (such as decay), and again melee.
Each bullet is more impactful, which is exactly why slow firing characters get screwed over more. If you get unlucky and miss two in a row, which is possible even with PRD, you just lose out on a ton of DPS because unlucky.
Tho I probably should have included mag size in the discussion, as smaller mag characters would also get screwed if they miss shots before reload.
@@Acex2ronstill mathematically wrong, it evens out on an infinite scale wich is also why examples like „25% chance to crit“ works for all weapons
@@Skeletontigerwe're not working on an infinite scale though. Missing 1/30 of your total teamfight output is much more devastating than 1/200 as mcginnis
@@RealLukifer This is the real point. Yes mathematically evasion evens out damage regardless of fire rate, but I'm talking about practice here. There will be cases where the player misses out on a huge chunk of damage just because they miss a single shot that was on target. In that time, your target escapes or kills you outright, and situations like that feel horrible and you feel robbed of counterplay options. Teamfights, and with them, entire games, could ride on a luck check, which doesn't really fit for an aim-based game.
@@Skeletontiger Over an entire game sure, but in a single fight it could be a big deal. Let's take a very extreme case, you run up to someone with 10hp left. P1 does 25 dmg every 5 seconds, P2 does 5 damage every 1 second, both 5 dps.
Both miss one shot. P1 must wait 5 seconds before they can try again. P2 shoots twice more and finishes in 3 seconds. P1 is practically 60% worse off.
I hate to be this guy and the haze footage is probly a bit old, but.... the haze build you are using sucks.
I'm not following a build in the video, I'm just going with whatever--and I do this for every character. It's not an optimal way to play, but I do this to help myself become more familiar with items while I'm still learning the game.
Riot and good design in the same phrase hahah. But honestly without joking, its the first time I heard that.
fuck pendragon
(love the vids btw)
As much as I enjoy both games, dota and league; dota definitely has more questionable design choices.
@@parkerdrake7062 imo dota feels closer to a "perfect game" compared to other mobas when it comes to balance
"Dota" "A little bit of randomness"
I've mainly played the original mod, and honestly can't attest to what Dota 2 in now, but DotA always had an absurd level of randomness. From multiple artifacts having chance based effects that could chain together in a streak of bad luck (perma stun, multiple crits in a row), to characters with high crit numbers on a low chance to proc and characters that can cast their spells multiple times simply due to chance, Dota always had an unhealthy amount of randomness. It's a same things as "no concede button" - Icefrog wants it in the game, and he'll die on this hill no matter how detrimential this mechanics to overall game expirience.
@@DrNiradino I love ogre 🧌🧌🧌
@@RealLukifer Magi my beloved 🧌🧌🧌
Nah, people love luck.
To be lucky is to be chosen by gods!
Its good, just like gambling
Woah, woah, I don't think heavy hitting slow firing characters deserve a place in deadlock. All guns should fire no slower than 2 bullets a second unless it's a shotgun.
the biggest trap is thinking deadlock is a "fast pace shooter"
it's still a moba
the long term thinking is much more rewarded; if you lose your lane early (
Regarding the evasion headshot thing, if thats true evasion should become 100% then headshots deal normal bodyshot damage not headshot damage. To me that sounds like the best way to have evasion still be a damage reducer and thus useful against the high skill players
u ALSO HAVE SPELLS, SPIRIT POWER WTF
The more I learn about Deadlock the less and less interested I am in it.
clickbait 💀
skill issue
u want with this idea that it become 100% aim game while its not there is spirt ability that can be used a lot when dealing with evasion.
the thing is the game NEED evasion as an item not just within ability.
Please keep rng away from this game
mkb
lol just buy mkb
ngl the game is fun af but i dont have high hopes for the balancing state of it. when you have characters like kelvin and infernus out dpsing and outhealing everything on their path. mirages autos that slow you since the 1st minute. dumb decisions imo
Items solve those problems.
try debuff reducer or healbane goofy
@@CJ-ct2mu I have no idea how items work tbh i have no idea how anything works
Sorry to bring in reality, this is valve's game and they don't care what players want. If icefrog wants evasion in this game then so be it. No one can stop that. Also in Dota evasion is useless, same as in Deadlock if you get wombo combo. I am sure even if you have 100% evasion in Deadlock you will still die from other million things.
Now this is just a silly take that doesn't reflect reality at all. Deadlock's literally in playtest because they're trying to get player feedback and generate discussion. If the game were already perfect and release-ready, we'd have skins by now.
"NO!!!! YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT EVERYTHING THE DEV ADDS!!! YOU'RE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE ANY SAY IN THE DECISIONMAKING FOR GAME DESIGN!!!!"
@@Acex2ron Incase you don't know... Dota2 is still in Beta. LOL. Also getting the feedback from the players or not, all they need is in game data and thats all. Players are stupid at giving suggestions due to bias. Icefrog is just beyond us all. He doesn't need our feedback. Just play the game is all he asked.
@@fedfeboytk Dota 2 is not in beta. It has left the "beta" status more than a decade ago.
@@ryuranazmut3617 Bro searched google and ctrl+c ctrl+v the line lol. Its meme made by "Doat 2 players" to enlighten you
all they gotta do is introduce a item that pierces evasion and lower numbers why is this video so long LMAO.
First
evasion belongs in this game just as much as random crits belong in tf2 - they fucking dont
rng mechanics dont belong in shooters
take a look at recoil - many games have random recoil, but valve realized that this is bullshit and so cs go has fixed recoil patterns
cry
Hey! Awesome video! I'm Guilherme, a thumbnail designer, I'd love to chat, do you have any social media where we can connect? Thanks! :)
I'm not interested.