Forgiveness as a concept is often used by narcissists and other abusers to keep you from healing and getting away from them, mentally and physically. What they really want is for you to maintain the relationship with them while they continue to do what they've always done. Not forgiving abuse and not tolerating it anymore is very important.
38 years after his rather unforgivable deed, my father suddenly (out of the blue) mentioned the matter and asked me to forgive him. I was greatly surprised by his "admission" and initially reticent to forgive (albeit open to the idea). The next day he branded me "unforgiving". It felt like a reactivation.
It's good to hear you say this because l've always felt the same way. My brother raped me for 8 yrs, starting at 5 & l went ballistic & cried & yelled & begged my mother to help me. She didn't. I told her again after the 2nd rape that l needed her help & nothing. I walked outside in complete terror of what was to come & literally saw something akin to a spirit form of me, wearing my clothes, walk away from me forever. Around the same time, my sister made a 2nd attempt on my life, pushing me in front of a car. I was in hell. I knew that if my mother didn't care that l was being raped, she wouldn't care that my sister was trying to kill me on a regular basis. There were 7 such attempts on my life over years & over a hundred rapes. Not only did none of of them ever admit/acknowledge in any way what they had done, none ever apologized. Instead, they scapegoated me, always pointing fingers at me for something. Not only do l not forgive them, l'd like to kill them. But it's illegal, isn't it? Even when someone has raped you dozens of times, it's not ok to seek revenge. Just as it's not okay to kill your bitch of a sister that did everything she could to see you dead. And my mother, what a waste of human flesh. If there is a hell, l hope they rot in it.
"Forgiving" made me develop Stockholm Syndrome. Loving and violently even defended my abuser to anyone who dared speak ill of her. My poor siblings still do the same.
Thank you for this. I am so sick of hearing this message everywhere, it's so manipulative and self-serving (to the aggressors or abusers) and it's so hard to wrap your head around why you have this nagging feeling in your guts telling you that something is deeply wrong with this message.
I also like the idea that forgiveness is a calculation that your subconscious does when the damage that was done has been compensated for and that the person acknowledges what he has done so there is no denial and a promise to not do it in the future. So there are two things that are broken and needs to be repaired : economic/material loss or some kind of loss and trust. Looking at it this way, whether you forgive someone is up to what the person who did the harm do after the damaging event. Some things cannot be forgiven cause there is no way to repair the damage that has been done and to heal the mistrust.
What Daniel did as a child seems like a form of stockholm syndrome, you forgive in order to live with an abuse that you cannot escape from, and kind of make friends with your abuser.
Acceptance without being consumed by hate is far superior and healing than forgiveness. I dont really see why you should forgive abusive, sadistic people, it almost seems like a form of gaslighting to excuse their behavior without them having to change. And forgiveness turns you into a "nice" person who gets targetted by other abusers.
Pink Puffin well said. I think it is 100% gaslighting. I'm not required to put up with mistreatment. As far as hate I have to look at that. I have a habit of throwing their behavior back at them and making them own in real time. They run and it's not a problem for me.
People who have truly forgiven gain true inner strength. It's not something you can fake and others sense it. Predators will avoid you and seek an easier target, predators will sense their own inner weakness in your presence and because they're fearful of being exposed will stay out of your way. True forgiveness gives you effortless power that isn't forceful at the same time. Its very difficult to put into words.
Pink Puffin , born , you only know , what you were taught , shown , learned , lots of sick having child , inflict theirs onto , with never a solution , or meeting to express emotion as reason , deviant minds bre3ds deviant hearts , broken people breaking others , trying to break all.
why forgive someone that doesn't regret hurting you? you're rewarding their behavior. people feel guilt when not forgiving and that is what kills them but once you realize that you don't have to forgive these people that don't feel guilt...why should you have to feel it
Yrs, it is not fair to be so cruel to, talk to the person mean,and nasty or disrespectful if they have already apologised and ARE willing to show they have changed,and want to continue to change for the better. Now to forgive people who have no remorse, whats ever, and those same people you know 100% are continuing to hurt others in the same way, because they eill not change ,let alone even see that ehat they have done was erong, then yes they're not deserving of forgiveness and I do thibk it is like rewarding them,to forgive those people. # Resist Blue Isis abuse and Tyranny !
I agree. Guilt is karma. Don’t forgive these people they don’t deserve the reward of not being guilty. Let them suffer. You can move on great without forgiving someone
I’ve heard people say that it takes a burden off of you, the victim ,but those people haven’t been abused and injured as badly as I’ve been. I’d be happy to forget them which I still haven’t been able to do and it’s been a couple of years. I think that’s where bodywork is useful and healing what’s going on in the subconscious mind.
Genius, Daniel. Forgiveness only applies in one circumstance : when the one who hurt you says '' I'm sorry. I didn't mean it. Forgive me.'' You can see this daily on crowded streets, when someone bumps into another person. The bumped person immediately turns, angrily, on the bumper who, with hands and face ''says'' ''Sorry...accident''. The anger drains out of the bumped person immediately; usually to be replaced by a smile...''It's fine''. And it is fine...no trauma, no residue , forgotten...for both parties. Anyone suggesting forgiveness as a means to heal is running their own denial-fuelled agenda, talking DRIVEL.
thank you Daniel, that clarified and confirmed my experiences and observations. forgiveness is saintly, and to keep demanding it without changing the behaviours, is spiritual exploitation. children can do it but the sacrifice only enables more irresponsibility. love and hope for healing change for everyone, from Ireland.
Best video I've seen on forgiveness. Gives the concept a depth and some different dimensions which I hadn't thought of before. Thank you for sharing. Loving your videos.
They’re really saying “let me off the hook”, because on some level they know they’re acting badly. They’re not truly unaware of it, as is sometimes suggested. My family was fond of bizarre sayings like “blood is thicker than water”, because it was a completely unhealthy environment, and they lived in subconscious fear of abandonment.
OMG man! I am going through the angry phase now, I am tired of forgiving my tyrannical alcoholic father, it hurts too much to go through this again. But my mom be like "but he is still your dad come on". Nope, not in my book.
8:32 Nailed it. My pathologically, narcissistic mother used to tell me to forgive and forget. That frustrated me. That meant that people who did wrongdoing could then “force” the person who was wronged against to be forgiving towards them. Geesh. How convenient for the perpetrator of harm! In my earlier days, I said to myself, I could forgive, but never forget. Never. And then later, I realized that the spiritual bypass of forgiving (for myself I give love) was a major mind fuck. When I allowed myself to be angry, when I allowed myself to rage, when I allowed myself, the tears and depression and sadness for a lost childhood and derailed life, ….. THEN I could heal. Those people who birthed me are not forgiven. They are guilty for neglect and misdirection. Guilty for the inability to physically love. Guilty for not allowing pure love from a child (me) who was starving for physical touch. Guilty for not listening this child who had things to say. Guilty for finding the television far more interesting than their own daughter. Guilty for not recognizing her athletic abilities, so they could pour their love onto their one golden child (now a narcissist and addicted to money.) Not forgiving my parents has been the best decision I’ve ever made for my own mental health. Now, after suffering through three narcissistic male partners, I know what a toxic person looks like and acts like. All that forgiveness left me open and vulnerable to more Abuse. Do not forgive, never forget, and live your best life without these toxic people in it.
I swear you think so much like me! I’m so glad I found you on TH-cam.. Forgiveness is made out to be a moral obligation. I don’t have to forgive anyone. One way of moving on from the past is by not having a relationship w parents or these family members. A counselor once told me that forgiveness is: letting go of the belief that the past could be any different. Because our minds want to go back and change what happened and make our wrongs right. And we cant.
Omg exactly what I’m feeling I was beating myself up for not knowing what my problem was! What you said took weight off my shoulders! I actually got some compassion for myself! Thank you so much for what you do!!
Holding yourself in contempt for being resentful. That is a problem created by adults against children. Children are naturally forgiving. As long as adults do not carelessly or maliciously hurt a child, the child has no motivation for resentment.
Thank you!!! You’re the first person I’ve seen say this. I was severely abused by my parents, as well as raised in a cult. So many falsehoods have been drilled into my head. I’m trying so hard to continue figuring things out for myself, but mostly for my own children. I will not perpetuate the harm!! Thank you for saying these very unpopular, but true things.
unfortunately the christian religion does plenty of abuse to victims, asking them to turn the other cheek to abusers and the bible even says that if u dont forgive then u will get even more demons to torment u! i kid u not and thats what i was told, its in the bible. abusers just LOVE that teaching so much! its makes the victim look like and asshole "oh u dont forgive me, ur terrible and u will get tormented by demons if u dont! jesus forgave me why cant u?" its horrid gaslighting! and yes daniel u are totally correct in that this forgiveness racket never really gets resolved. no matter what ur parents or anyone else does u dont have a right to get angry or feel rage or bitterness, u must forgive but guess what? that unresolved anger will only be heaped onto ur kids who then in turn have to forgive u and then the cycle continues w/ their kids. thats the price of repressing ur anger and forcing forgiveness. nothing gets resolved and it seems to foster abuse. religion is a coping mechanism for many and i believe it was created as such, spiritual bypassing is de rigeur. it really sounds nice to forgive, unconditional love etc. how many people can unconditionally love someone? parents to kids? its rare. i think most kids unconditionally love our parents because we need them so much for everything, yet kids feelings are not validated as much as parents feelings are. forgiveness is also a beautiful concept but i think its pretty rare to truly forgive, and it being pushed onto people is very hurtful.
Within the Christian context my understanding of forgiveness is that, since God is the ultimate dispenser of justice, forgiveness is merely the act of not taking justice into our own hands (through acts of revenge which were quite common in the ancient world and still is in many societies). It's an acknowledgement that in our human frailty we don't always know what is best and, when hurt, will cause more damage to others as well as ourselves. That's why forgiveness is mostly about leaving things in God's hands. It doesn't mean that we cannot remove ourselves from harm's way, if this is necessary or possible, nor it does it mean that we continue to trust the offender. It also doesn't mean that we are not entitled to feel angry but merely we are not to use that anger destructively (like retaliating). When we are not able to remove ourselves from a situation, then the best solution is to pray for our enemies (which is encouraged even when we are able to remove ourselves from abuse). Prayer accomplishes two things: it brings the victim solace/peace (helps to let go of what is out of our control) while also calling on a higher power to intervene in the situation by either, ideally, changing the heart of the offender or by removing the victim from the situation. This system relies on a sense that the person doing the forgiving has faith and trust in God and His divine wisdom and mercy. It doesn't require, however, that we deny what happened or that we bury our feelings about the situation. Unfortunately forgiveness, within religion, has been distorted, used as a tool to avoid accountability as well as an excuse to perpetuate abuse which is not its intended purpose.
This is a good topic. An obligation to forgive is rife with opportunities to impunity and further abuse. As a parent, it shocks my conscience that any child would have cause to have an outstanding grievance against a parent. I would not want my son to go though such a thing. He knows that I would want to hear about it from him so that we could at least attempt to resolve it. Daniel, it seems possible that your parents are personality disordered. Being hurt by your parents is a terrible thing. Resolving that now, as an adult, may not be achieved by forgiveness. Rather, you might get some relief by a combination of understanding that they could not change, and the knowledge that you now have the power to protect yourself by avoiding them. It isn't the best of outcomes. But it might be the best given the circumstances.
Good commentary! A lot of bad people hide behind a twisted concept of forgiveness to continue hurting people...false churches also propagate it...Jesus doesn’t even say to forgive unless someone genuinely repents
I was told to forgive people and I did. In the end I realized all I have to do is forgive myself. I will forgive a mistake but I will not forgive evil people.
Thank you for this one, Daniel. Like you I seem to be seeing and hearing things all around me about forgiveness As a kid, I just closed down and started to believe that all the different abuses weren't so bad, it was just life, and other people thought it was really bad. Now in my mid 50's am I just tipping my toes in the water of being annoyed, and god forbid even a little angry at what they all did. Its like I'm angry inside, but expressing it that scares the hell out of me. I have killed everyone in my family off in my mind, or at least have them in a coma its easier to deal with with my crazy life now if they are all good as dead. I'm using EMDR and finding it helpful to start processing my feelings. I don't see myself as forgiving them ever, I still don't hate them enough yet. I think that whole forgiveness BS is a scam and is something thought up by folks that know they need to be forgiven for the heinous things they have done.
Wow Daniel the same thing happened to me. My family did the same thing and so did many counsellors and religious people. Now I see forgiveness as another way of putting it on the injured 🤕 child instead of people taking personal responsibility. Well said Daniel 😊💛
Thank you for this excellent topic. Some many times I have been told to figure people that physically and sexually abused me and severe neglect. Honestly I felt terrible inside because I simply couldn’t forgive those that literally damaged me and literally had no remorse in doing so.
Thank you for this. Helps me understand things a lot. Forgiveness sounds so noble, but it does very little to prevent issues from reoccurring or deal with the products of trauma.
Yes it's a tough one. It's harder NOT to forgive because then one is forced to constantly wrestle with one's injury. Someone close to me once said "don't forgive them because you're worth taking revenge on them. They must pay because YOU'RE worth it!! Not to punish them is to let yourself down"
I have found that those who push forgiveness, don’t seem to have the patience to listen to or deal with trauma, and feel guilty, themselves, about traumas they’ve experienced (done by them and/or to them). I’ve always been told, “God will not forgive you unless you forgive others”. What crap! Aren’t we supposed to follow His example? First of all, He does not forgive us until there’s repentance, and only God has the power to completely forgive, throwing our imperfection as far as the east is from the west. All too often forgiveness=denial.What about past words or actions that we don’t remember? For most of us the list is too long.
I also won’t be forgiving my own father. Had words with him to yesterday and he made it all about himself. He didn’t even know I had a new job and how proud I was about it and now I don’t even know if I care to go back. What a disappointment me I’m just so mad and don’t know who to trust nor can o forgive at this point because no one could tell me what was going on or tell the truth so screw it
Agreed. Thank you for your uploads. I love listening to you speak! Perhaps the problem has more to do with the concept of being at peace. Most believe that being at peace requires making it with the other, when in fact it simply requires being at peace with oneself. This is an inner journey. For many, it seems too complex and requires creating too much perceived chaos to actually take responsibility by being honest in not forgiving. There is underlying guilt and shame to deal with too. Let’s face it! Those that get the short end of the stick in terms of their parental education have so much to work through, and not everyone finds the opportunities to work through the sludge of trauma.
I see forgiveness very differently. Perhaps I equate your definition with invalidation as opposed to forgiving. A matter of semantics, maybe? I see forgiveness as the final act of releasing the resentment and not condoning, allowing, or validating the behavior or action. I don't even necessarily see it as an act toward the other person. After healing from the trauma, anger, etc., when I can see how they may have been harmed and acted out their own trauma, I can empathize to a degree that helps me release the anger. I may never allow that person a space in my life, idealize past memories, or think highly of them, but I have been able to arrive at a place that I don't feel pain if I think about it. When I can do that, I feel I've forgave. It's more for me than anyone else. I certainly don't see it as a way to allow someone to continue bad behavior towards me, or invalidate how I feel about a situation. Again... maybe just semantics.
I cried a lot after watching this video. I was recently betrayed by someone and the worst part was that she had no remorse for what she’d done. There’s no way I’m forgiving her but the experience has made me wiser and I know now how to avoid such a predicament in the near future.
Great talk as always Daniel. This topic reminds me of my last relationship. My ex cheated on me and it stung really bad, so I temporarily broke up with her.. in that time period I was into new age spirituality. I thought I was “supposed” to forgive and I wanted to bc I still deeply loved her, even though I now had immense anger toward her. So a few months after I found out she cheated I called her and told her I forgave her and then we tried to work things out again. But underneath this “forgiveness” was anger, rage, and incredible sadness. I had not worked all of this out, so when I forgave her it was not genuine, and I’m sure she knew I was still holding onto animosity toward her. Anyways, we ended up breaking up for good as red flags continued to present themselves, but after some time passed I reflected on this artificial forgiveness, and why I did that in that particular time period. It was all rooted into thinking I was “supposed” to forgive and I always wanted to be a good person, do the right thing etc. but I’ve now learned that this is not how true forgiveness works. True forgiveness is a process that takes time, sometimes years, and sometimes you might not be able to get to a point of true forgiveness at all. I now believe you can only get to that place once you address all of the underlying hurt, sadness, anger etc. this cannot bypassed. A quote that stuck with me from Robert Master’s book on spiritual bypassing: “Forgiveness is often paved by hatred.” That’s not something you hear taught a lot...
Even though Alice Miller wasn't the best mother in the world, she was the first person I came across who bravely wrote "you don't have to forgive". I loved it. How do you forgive 44 years of abuse?? My parents irreversibly distroyed me emotionally so no, no forgiveness for them.
I absolutely agree with so much of what is being expressed here. The 'forgiveness agenda' is a striking characteristic of those who have made the decision to not do the hard work of addressing the realities of their own traumas. When it rears up in my experience, I immediately recognize that I am dealing with a soul that is desperately attempting to suppress their pain, and unconsciously bullying anyone who dares to FEEL. On the other hand, I believe that once enough healing has taken hold, there is an organic acceptance that naturally emerges - I wouldn't precisely call it 'forgiveness' - rather, a reduction in hate, resentment, fear and self-loathing that results in a greater internal peacefulness. THIS feels honest - it's not the stifling of the truth in order to conform to societies norms...it's a state that emerges as we metabolize the truth of our OWN suffering...and THEN, in the next natural step, we organically begin to extend that understanding to ALL, including the perpetrators in our lives. This does not mean that we condone their behavior, or that we remain passive if attacked. Quite the opposite: it means that we have reached a place of radical self-responsibility, and we are now ABLE, effortlessly, to perceive the generational wounding that informed the destructive behavior that they and we have engaged in. We understand, from the gut, that the forces of unconsciousness that drove the predatory behavior were too much for them. And if we're honest, we can easily see the times in our own lives when we have also been at the mercy of the toxic programming, and the harm that we have done. It's my understanding that we ARRIVE at a place that may 'look like' forgiveness, once we actually plow through our own grieving...but it is not forced, it is not an attempt to avoid healing: it is the result. much love.
OMG!!! I just love your commentary Daniel!!! You are just tooooo awesome! Another fantastic show if you have any desire to come on and talk about this!!! Maybe a better word for this forced “forgiveness” is indoctrination!!! To whoever’s party line is demanding it!
If I could I'd hit 1000 times like button! Forgiveness doesn't offer emotional restitution, it only harms deeper and further. The only way out it through, and forgiveness is going the opposite way. Thanks Daniel
Wow 👏 Finally somebody who gets it. I was adopted my parents were very aristocratic and narcissistic and wanted me to be seen and not heard but They actually didn’t even care much about the seen part lol. Showing any emotion was something they “played the worlds smallest violin” for and I was called worthless and silenced every time I opened my mouth. So I learned how to fit in with all the jerks and created an adult world full of them. I became successful at a very young age and spiritual and a great parent and I was still shamed by my family and not included. That was the day I said it doesn’t matter what I do it’ll never be good enough and I quit giving a shit about pleasing anybody but myself. And I still have a tendency to occasionally get drawn in by the next psychic vampire until I snap back and remember forgiving them over and over and over changes NOTHING. I reopened the door to my best childhood friend and it was just the same thing all over again. Forgiving did nothing but triangulate me into a continual ridiculing shame. Now I cut them off and send them love from AFAR.
Great video......would love a great conversation with you...very poweful and true.....never commented on a video before about meeting someone..keep up the good work
I know exactly what you mean. The first time I didnt forgive they attacked me, wrote me out and gave Me the silent treatment. Forgiveness is not the solution to this mess.
Thank you so much for this. Even as a good Christian girl that believes forgiveness has its place, even I can relate to this. Your videos in general are so helpful. Even though you are no longer a therpist, you are still so helpful and enlightening and for that, I thank you.
Daniel... why should you "Hurry"up anything? why should anyone? when we discover to have been into such kind of problems the first thing to do isnt to be gentle to ourselves? what I mean is that the person who told you and pushed you in that way is mean not understanding that whatever will be will be when and if you will feel it. I forgave my parents but still, this doesn't mean I haven't to deal daily with the problems they created in my life?, and noticing this i do not mean to sink into self lamentations and so on but jsut being objective and seeing how much I struggle to cope with life now. I forgave them and that happened all at a sudden unexpectedly when I saw them in my same situation and I udnerstood the difference between me and them: I was havig this WAKE UP they never had it, so they never had the chance to ehal themselves and provide me of what I needed and ..they needed too.. SO yes i forgave thema nd that has been really a relief and helped me deeply to keep dinstances and do not suffer anymore i that deep way..but them sure all this doesn't mean that now i HAVE TO implement a daily care rutine for myself that before all this discovery I never needed untill I had my melt down.. SO man, be serene, forgiveness will arrive IF it will arrive and if not..ehhh we are sorry for THEM!! a big huge hug to one of your fans..your honestly is really appreciated!!
I struggle with forgiving anyone. I REALLY don't like people the way I used to. The past few months, I'm getting REALLY sick of people asking me if I'm okay or if I'm all right. It's so rude. I seriously don't see any good in other people anymore.
I have been thinking about this topic for 30 years since the days when I was verbally abused repeatedly in college and then I ended up snapping at some girl who was infatuated with me and it had a big effect on her and her future. I went through all the emotions back and forth for years, re experiencing the worst about 10 years later and unleashing the same kind of verbal abuse on the perpetrators that I had experienced. Then even more years thinking about what I did and why. The emotions only disappeared when I started learning about personality disorders and aloplastic defences. Then I understood my actions and the actions of the others then and 10 years later. In my experience it is good to know about these topics to be able to put things in perspective, otherwise you can fumble with your traumas forever.
I HATE even hearing words like “Forgiveness,” when it’s used in a hyper vague way that has so much other potential meaning buried underneath its utterance. It breaks my brain.
This is such an important video. There's such a strong push for 'forgiveness' in a lot of therapy circles, a lot of religious groups, and a lot of conformist social groups in general. What no one seems to acknowledge on a really deep level is that forgiveness needs to be *earned* and I mean earned in full. Depending on the crime, saying "sorry" isn't enough. Even changing behaviour isn't enough. If you spend 20+ years terrorising someone, or neglecting them, or starving them of love when they had no choice but to rely on you... then to earn forgiveness you would need 20+ years of working *hard* to do the opposite of that. And all of this needs to be actually catered to the victim, their needs and their schedule. It's no use sitting by yourself 'feeling sorry' when they have had to separate from you for their own safety. Feeling truly sorry is a good thing for an abuser to do, but it's more helpful for them than their victim. The practice of feeling sorry is moreso an early stage in the abuser's own healing, it's not a token to be shoved at the victim with forgiveness expected in return. It's no use sending someone money or gifts or aggressively offering favours they didn't ask for, when what they needed for all those years was for you to really listen, really accept criticism, reflect on yourself, work on yourself, ask what they need and follow through. Throwing random crap at the problem (when it's convenient to you, and only when it's stuff you didn't need anyway) and then being like "there I fixed it. Now you have no excuse not to forgive me." Does not show any of the growth that is needed for forgiveness to arise. Nobody should be pushed to forgive. Some things are truly unforgivable. Some people do absolutely nothing to warrant forgiveness. It's up to each individual to listen to their own needs, and carefully follow the healthy internal voices which are telling them what they need to survive and to thrive. For some people in some situations, forgiveness will never be a part of that.
You have been the amplifier of my scared inner voice which has been silenced for so long as sinful, dangerous and evil. It is so far from that, but I lived my life believing the lies of all those who were supposed to love me and care for me. Wounded people that avoid healing at all cost. But because of you, I now know that I can trust this little voice. It is still not easy, but when something feels weird I say "what would Daniel say?" (something like "what would Tommy Zoom do?") and I find the courage to challenge beliefs and habits of a lifetime. THANK YOU 🙏 And what is it with these tea bags and forgiveness????
Fake, lazy forgiveness is just suppression, illusion and ego.Ppl often want to help without having done the work themselves and wityhout having the maturity and empathyu, knowledge to do it in goiod ways, unfortunately. But it is a good thing, and 12-step programs can really help.
So good to see another video from you. Excellent topic! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I find this knowledge much more valuable than the textbook information in my psychology studies. Greetings from Toronto, Canada.
Sorry for this thesis paper of a comment but I just want to say - thanks for this very real and refreshing insight on forgiveness! So many attributes like "forgiveness", "kindness" etc are used as a form of avoidance by narcissistic people and as toxic positivity by their now-codependent victims. Too many people aren't held accountable in the name of forgiveness. Our very intuition and reflex (which are authentic/appropriate) are thwarted by this misguided concept of forgiveness. My emotionally and physically abusive parents (especially mom who would beat me repeatedly) got a free pass from having to take responsibility with all the forgiving I was doing. She would feel bad at her volatile episodes, yes, but never had the awareness or the shame to put that same effort that got put into her anger to instead seek help. The abusive cycle continued for a very long time. It's only after going no contact (as of last year at 35) that I'm enforcing some sense of boundaries and accountability (not that they understand). Cue the flying monkeys that came crawling out of the woodwork to preach going back in contact in the name of forgiveness. I think the No Contract primarily came after I began to awaken to my own behavioral issues that I'd been exhibiting, which I had been unaware of for the longest time. I was realizing that I was pretty much feral compared to my healthier peers. I went No Contact really because I realized how much of a liability I could be toward others with the same volatile temper, anger outbursts, poor impulse control - all traits that I grew up around at home and had ingested. My sense of selfrespect and dignity finally kicked in which made me seek therapy to protect others and then go No Contact from my parents to protect myself (so that I would not be retraumatized). The family that came crawling out of the woodworks have largely been spared of witnessing my mothers' behavior and treatment toward me, as well as the way I went on to act out so I take their message of forgiveness to be baseless and unrealistic. Unfortunately, my therapist also preached the forgiveness song after she realized I went No Contact with my parents. I seem to remember my therapist saying that her parents were also abusive and unnurturing, that her brother chose to go no contact but she stayed on. That felt like a red flag to me and in time I dropped her too. I think gaslighting kids into forgiveness and forcing one to forgive are the underpinnings of how people develop Stockholm Syndrome - where they are made to feel bad for feeling bad, and they are made to feel bad for their anger/resent/wanting different healthy/better things. They see this honesty and authenticity as too bold and too big which I would imagine is overwhelming for people who have gone their entire lives being small and excusing/allowing/enabling abuse. This gimmick of forgiveness is just so pervasive in our society. I think forgiveness should be taught as something that needs to be earned, just like trust - and like trust, takes time... a LOT of time. That it should come with waiting and watching, not be given out like candy. I'm now very slow to forgive. I also feel much better and it reaffirms my own realness and worth, when I allow myself to be slow with forgiving. I feel like this is me responding than just reacting.
Duuuuuuuuuude!! This is so TIMELY and SPOT ON!! I've been talking about this very SUBJECT alot lately at my Alanon mtgs! I love that Alanon has a saying that I've been using for the past 29+ years "take what u NEED and LEAVE the rest!" also "I have choices in EVERY ASPECT of my LIFE!" It's been told to me that no matter what forgiveness is freeing! I refute that with..... NOT TILL I FULLY PROCESS THE HURT!! I'm going through this with a number of significant people in my life right now and it kind of SUCKS! By chance last night i ran into a female friend of mine that I've been estranged from at the supermarket. For some reason my wall fell and i put my arms out and we ended up hugging! It felt good to me that it happened ORGANICALLY....... When my dad died, i dnt cry, he could be very hurtful in a # of ways, but at times very loving(he made it possible for me to take Piano lessons at age 12) He did me a LIFE LONG SERVICE with that! 46 years later Piano continues to SUPPORT me $ wise and on a SPIRITUAL level i can't even begin to explain how WONDERFUL it is! He was also AMAZING when i came out as Gay to him and my mother! When they took him off the respirator i closed his eyes, kissed him on the forhead, held his hand and said "go home dad" i was so greatful we were on positive terms with his untimely death. When i gave his eulogy i was able to say positive things about him and concluded with. "I thank my dad for accepting me exactly the way i was" Which was the truth..... I shocked myself when i dnt cry when my mom passed! The road to her death was quite arduous!! With the dealings with: my(practically estranged brother) & caregivers. I do tons of SOUL SEARCHING on this topic and really try and see the larger picture. Sometimes it works for me sometimes not! I honor myself by giving myself the time i need.... You are a wonderful gentle soul. I look forward to learning alot from you in the future through yr own soul searching.....Peace and many hugs always....ern :-)
I do agree with you in all you said. The one who tells me to forgivne those who inflicted me pain in different ways is my enemy. He/she doesn't know what he is speaking about. All the healing is about to express repressed feelings. That is what therapy should be about...
This is really powerful and extols a great deal of what Alice Miller the Swiss psychologist had worked out. Her book “ The life of the gifted child” is probably the seminal work on trans generational trauma and how parents traumatise their children. Miller says we should hold our parents accountable for their mistakes as forgiving them will never uproot the trauma and resolve it. Millers son subsequently spoke about how his mother traumatised him as a child. She did not however come to her conclusions until after her son had reached adulthood. Great video Daniel thanks for putting your views into the public domain.
This is a fascinating subject. I, the other day, was talking about forgiveness to my therapist because I have been trying to 'forgive' lately so I can move forward. Seeing this has made me stop, and I now need to re-evaluate what I am doing and what this truly means.
Spot on! I thought I'd 'forgiven' my abuser but negative feelings are starting to come to the surface again because I'm starting to respect my feelings (they won't be ignored anymore!) So the more I'm started to value myself the more angry I feel about how appallingly I was treated. Forgiving someone can (not always) damage your self esteem.
TOTALLY, TOTALLY, TOTALLY - you are right !!!!!!!! I could write a book about this !!!!! Forgiveness is CONDITIONAL !!!! If someone wants forgiveness they will do EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING in their power to BE sorry. Without that there is NO forgiveness. Being forgiven cannot be coerced, otherwise it is NOT forgiveness. God doesn't forgive people who are not sorry, so why should we? We should not.
Forgive is to overcome anger, disappointment, hurt that was brought to us by others or us alone, in our eyes and understanding. Forgetting will be to completely cease memory of what happened. People usually forget only, as forgiving and not forgetting is lot more complex and time and energy consuming endeavour. Very conscious effort, that can exhaust and challenge ones mind, body and soul. Do forgive for your own good and do NOT forget for a same reason.
I hear you and hate how the majority always seem to go to the forgiveness narrative, do so from a good place (possibly) but it is truly wicked!! They unfairly violate victims again by attempting to force something unnaturally. People should pray that victims reach the place where they choose to forgive but until then they should remain silent especially when there is justified anger.
I appriciate these videos, very eloquent and well fought. However, with all due respect mr. Mackler most probably does not have children (I think that on another video he promotes not having children). And he seems so retisent about pain and trauma that he seems prone to make other human relationships problematic. Life is traumatic, it starts at birth... look at the cross at Calvary; its passion, love and pain united.
Forgiveness should never be ingenuine, so therefore not pushed by a therapist or other people. It should come from a place of your own. If and when you can forgive should be in your own time. I had to forgive my father, but it was on my time, not everyone else's urging me to do so.
This I would call falsh forgivness - because it's not. The real forgiveness is the one you get too after you have taken care of your feelings. You don't forgive for others but yourself! If you don't forgive it will eat you up inside. To forgive doesn't mean forgetting and having to have those people in your life - it just mean you are not carrying that weight around with you anymore because you have resolved those feelings inside you.
And I'll add forgiving can take a long time and it's not something you can force your way to. Forgiveness is when you are ready through and through to let go of that pain and resentment for the people who did this to you. But again it's not for them - it's for you! You don't ever have to tell them.
I would've changed the word to acceptance then not forgiveness. Accept what is and move on and know they can't mess with your mind anymore once you have managed to get away and work through your trauma. I call that acceptance not forgiveness I'm not even at the managed to have moved away from their house stage so acceptance will not happen yet. I'm still forgiving to survive eye roll
You hit the nail on the head. Letting go is not for them, It's for you! The anger and rage gave me all kinds of physical ailments. But since I cut my mother loose and healed emotionally, that anger is gone and I'm physically healthy . The best thing I did for myself was to let it all go. And of course go no contact, but let it go.
Thank you Daniel. I do not think anyone is helping another by pushing forgiveness on someone else. a lot depend on what forgiveness means to you. if forgiveness means saying its ok what you did and lets keep going as if nothing happened than I wouldn't ever recommend forgiveness. I see that I did a lot of that as a child out of necessity,survival as you described so nicely in your video. I didn't realize it until you put it in the video and that explains a lot. As an adult, a therapist and an MD defined forgiveness as acknowledging what the person did, accepting it and then no longer holding them accountable for it so that it frees you up from the anger and hatred that locks you into relationship with them. it doesn't mean you agree with what they did. you know it was wrong. it frees you from waiting for them to acknowledge or admit their responsibility for what they did or waiting for them to say they feel bad about they did. because lets face it, chances are that's never going to happen. I still hold them accountable for what they did. however there is no one else on this beautiful planet of ours who does. the statute of limitations for child abuse has run out. the perpotrators are going on living their lives without a care. This way I am free to move forward and give them, very little if any thought. it helps to realize you've got to be pretty messed up to hurt a child . WTF?!!
I agree with you that forgiveness shouldn't be automatic, but at the same time I wonder when is it actually a good thing. I myself struggle with the concept and I would like to know when you think forgiveness is good and when is it even warranted. I think you hinted at the fact that the other person needs to change first in order to deserve forgiveness, but I also think it would great if you expanded on the topic
I know you didn't ask me but I think you can still forgive someone who refuses to change. You may have to remove yourself from them though and that can be a scary prospect. "Samantha, the way you have treated me this week was horrible. I can't spend time with you until you acknowledge your actions and make some improvement." That can be very difficult to say. It may not come out the way you wanted it to. Chances are also that the person who is attacking you will respond with rage, aggression, and denial and may even accuse you instead.
I think forgiveness works when someone really doesnt realize what they did to hurt you, and then change or, at least, acknowledge it. Forgiveness and apologies are a two way street, it should never be one way
You can't ask forgiveness from a child because at the very least you wrong the child 3 times. First with the initial wrong. Second by cashing in on a child's natural inclination to be gracious. Thirdly when the child grows up and develops into an adult and wants to deal with the issues of the past as an adult, they are told that they are opening a can of worms. The best thing is to acknowledge that you wronged the child and change in a direction that no longer harms the child and offer to the adult that they become the opportunity to process the wrongs as an adult giving yourself no advantage. If you can't do that then don't wrong the child in the first place.
This is great - thank you Daniel. I agree that healing ourselves is a better focus. I do wonder, though, if after enough healing,, forgiveness (in the literal sense of "ceasing to be resentful") can possibly be a natural consequence. I'm not "there" yet, so I can't say for sure. I've met people who seem to use the forgiveness card a sort of spiritual bypass- as if saying they've forgiven someone is enough without doing the deep inner work, and I call BS on that. But they probably do it because someone pushed them into "forgiving" in the first place! I also realized upon listening that part of the issue may be that the connotation of the word "forgive" implies a lot more than the actual strict definition. (I went with the Merriam-Webster online definition as my source.)
Loreta - Thank you. That's from the actual definition. The thing is, though, that the word "forgiveness" is so loaded - the actual way people (including me!) understand it is a lot more than that. Another youtuber suggested "detaching" rather than forgiving. I like that idea, too.
What you're describing is not true forgiveness, when you truly forgive there is a lightness, a freeing feeling, you feel your heart swell, there a release of tension anger and fear. A feeling of love and understanding enters into your being and you never lose it again.
I think you have to do both; really deal with what happened, fully acknowledge it and even confront the other persons. You cannot control how they will respond to you. They can continue to deny it- that’s their own journey. But, there is something very freeing and healing about walking away from your past hurts (after facing them squarely in the eyes!) and not letting that hurt continue to define you. Forgiving sets yourself free from the past and it’s laying down a burden so you can move forward with the rest of your life without bitterness. BTW, I appreciate your honesty and sincerity- you have a heart of gold! Thanks for your posts.😊
I totally agree with you Daniel. I had a priest say to me you need to forgive. And I asked him I sed father does God forgives those who don’t even ask for forgiveness. And I tell you,you should have seen the look of bewilderment came over his face. He was not expecting that and he was stumped by it for a minute or so and then he looked at me with a look that I could see he was still processing the question and he says.no,no he doesn’t. And I feel the same way. I’ll not forgive you if you don’t express any desire to be forgiven.
Forgiveness as a concept is often used by narcissists and other abusers to keep you from healing and getting away from them, mentally and physically. What they really want is for you to maintain the relationship with them while they continue to do what they've always done. Not forgiving abuse and not tolerating it anymore is very important.
Bingo
Exactly because it's usually one sided forgiveness. They don't grant you the same level of forgiveness if they felt hurt by you.
38 years after his rather unforgivable deed, my father suddenly (out of the blue) mentioned the matter and asked me to forgive him. I was greatly surprised by his "admission" and initially reticent to forgive (albeit open to the idea). The next day he branded me "unforgiving". It felt like a reactivation.
It's good to hear you say this because l've always felt the same way.
My brother raped me for 8 yrs, starting at 5 & l went ballistic & cried & yelled & begged my mother to help me. She didn't. I told her again after the 2nd rape that l needed her help & nothing. I walked outside in complete terror of what was to come & literally saw something akin to a spirit form of me, wearing my clothes, walk away from me forever.
Around the same time, my sister made a 2nd attempt on my life, pushing me in front of a car. I was in hell.
I knew that if my mother didn't care that l was being raped, she wouldn't care that my sister was trying to kill me on a regular basis. There were 7 such attempts on my life over years & over a hundred rapes.
Not only did none of of them ever admit/acknowledge in any way what they had done, none ever apologized.
Instead, they scapegoated me, always pointing fingers at me for something.
Not only do l not forgive them, l'd like to kill them. But it's illegal, isn't it? Even when someone has raped you dozens of times, it's not ok to seek revenge. Just as it's not okay to kill your bitch of a sister that did everything she could to see you dead.
And my mother, what a waste of human flesh.
If there is a hell, l hope they rot in it.
@@betsyveritas1055❤
"Forgiving" made me develop Stockholm Syndrome. Loving and violently even defended my abuser to anyone who dared speak ill of her. My poor siblings still do the same.
Thank you for this. I am so sick of hearing this message everywhere, it's so manipulative and self-serving (to the aggressors or abusers) and it's so hard to wrap your head around why you have this nagging feeling in your guts telling you that something is deeply wrong with this message.
Agreed, it's so annoying that everyone pushes the forgiveness mantra without even knowing the details of your story.
I also like the idea that forgiveness is a calculation that your subconscious does when the damage that was done has been compensated for and that the person acknowledges what he has done so there is no denial and a promise to not do it in the future. So there are two things that are broken and needs to be repaired : economic/material loss or some kind of loss and trust.
Looking at it this way, whether you forgive someone is up to what the person who did the harm do after the damaging event. Some things cannot be forgiven cause there is no way to repair the damage that has been done and to heal the mistrust.
Sorry for bad language, but I got my point across at least.
What Daniel did as a child seems like a form of stockholm syndrome, you forgive in order to live with an abuse that you cannot escape from, and kind of make friends with your abuser.
It 's but religious input.
Yes, forgiveness for minor infractions is possible; but child/adult abuse is NOT forgivable.
Acceptance without being consumed by hate is far superior and healing than forgiveness. I dont really see why you should forgive abusive, sadistic people, it almost seems like a form of gaslighting to excuse their behavior without them having to change. And forgiveness turns you into a "nice" person who gets targetted by other abusers.
Pink Puffin well said. I think it is 100% gaslighting. I'm not required to put up with mistreatment. As far as hate I have to look at that. I have a habit of throwing their behavior back at them and making them own in real time. They run and it's not a problem for me.
Pink Puffin
👍🏻❤️🙏🏻
People who have truly forgiven gain true inner strength. It's not something you can fake and others sense it. Predators will avoid you and seek an easier target, predators will sense their own inner weakness in your presence and because they're fearful of being exposed will stay out of your way. True forgiveness gives you effortless power that isn't forceful at the same time. Its very difficult to put into words.
@Sasha Stone your perspective creates your world.
Pink Puffin , born , you only know , what you were taught , shown , learned , lots of sick having child , inflict theirs onto , with never a solution , or meeting to express emotion as reason , deviant minds bre3ds deviant hearts , broken people breaking others , trying to break all.
To forgive is to give approval to unacceptable behavior as far as I'm concerned
BINGO! Everyone's "authenticity" is sacrificed in order to survive in society...let alone in our own families. It's truly terrible...
Well put
This is why I love your work. Truth, against the grain reality checks. So validating. Thank you.
why forgive someone that doesn't regret hurting you? you're rewarding their behavior.
people feel guilt when not forgiving and that is what kills them but once you realize that you don't have to forgive these people that don't feel guilt...why should you have to feel it
Yrs, it is not fair to be so cruel to, talk to the person mean,and nasty or disrespectful if they have already apologised and ARE willing to show they have changed,and want to continue to change for the better. Now to forgive people who have no remorse, whats ever, and those same people you know 100% are continuing to hurt others in the same way, because they eill not change ,let alone even see that ehat they have done was erong, then yes they're not deserving of forgiveness and I do thibk it is like rewarding them,to forgive those people. #
Resist
Blue Isis abuse and
Tyranny !
I agree. Guilt is karma. Don’t forgive these people they don’t deserve the reward of not being guilty. Let them suffer. You can move on great without forgiving someone
I’ve heard people say that it takes a burden off of you, the victim ,but those people haven’t been abused and injured as badly as I’ve been. I’d be happy to forget them which I still haven’t been able to do and it’s been a couple of years. I think that’s where bodywork is useful and healing what’s going on in the subconscious mind.
Genius, Daniel.
Forgiveness only applies in one circumstance : when the one who hurt you says '' I'm sorry. I didn't mean it. Forgive me.''
You can see this daily on crowded streets, when someone bumps into another person.
The bumped person immediately turns, angrily, on the bumper who, with hands and face ''says'' ''Sorry...accident''.
The anger drains out of the bumped person immediately; usually to be replaced by a smile...''It's fine''.
And it is fine...no trauma, no residue , forgotten...for both parties.
Anyone suggesting forgiveness as a means to heal is running their own denial-fuelled agenda, talking DRIVEL.
thank you Daniel, that clarified and confirmed my experiences and observations. forgiveness is saintly, and to keep demanding it without changing the behaviours, is spiritual exploitation. children can do it but the sacrifice only enables more irresponsibility. love and hope for healing change for everyone, from Ireland.
Kathleen Nugent forgiveness is not saintly, it's BS
I imagine that a forgiveness culture would be encouraging to a sexual predator.
Best video I've seen on forgiveness. Gives the concept a depth and some different dimensions which I hadn't thought of before. Thank you for sharing. Loving your videos.
They’re really saying “let me off the hook”, because on some level they know they’re acting badly. They’re not truly unaware of it, as is sometimes suggested.
My family was fond of bizarre sayings like “blood is thicker than water”, because it was a completely unhealthy environment, and they lived in subconscious fear of abandonment.
Major truth bomb right there...I call it 'pathological forgiveness'.
OMG man! I am going through the angry phase now, I am tired of forgiving my tyrannical alcoholic father, it hurts too much to go through this again.
But my mom be like "but he is still your dad come on". Nope, not in my book.
"Spiritual guru at age 10" 😂😂😂. Right on point, well said.
Forgiving all the time makes you vulnerable and weak. Accepting the reality and the anger and moving on makes you strong🙂
8:32 Nailed it. My pathologically, narcissistic mother used to tell me to forgive and forget. That frustrated me. That meant that people who did wrongdoing could then “force” the person who was wronged against to be forgiving towards them. Geesh. How convenient for the perpetrator of harm!
In my earlier days, I said to myself, I could forgive, but never forget. Never.
And then later, I realized that the spiritual bypass of forgiving (for myself I give love) was a major mind fuck. When I allowed myself to be angry, when I allowed myself to rage, when I allowed myself, the tears and depression and sadness for a lost childhood and derailed life, ….. THEN I could heal. Those people who birthed me are not forgiven. They are guilty for neglect and misdirection. Guilty for the inability to physically love. Guilty for not allowing pure love from a child (me) who was starving for physical touch. Guilty for not listening this child who had things to say. Guilty for finding the television far more interesting than their own daughter. Guilty for not recognizing her athletic abilities, so they could pour their love onto their one golden child (now a narcissist and addicted to money.)
Not forgiving my parents has been the best decision I’ve ever made for my own mental health. Now, after suffering through three narcissistic male partners, I know what a toxic person looks like and acts like. All that forgiveness left me open and vulnerable to more Abuse. Do not forgive, never forget, and live your best life without these toxic people in it.
I swear you think so much like me! I’m so glad I found you on TH-cam.. Forgiveness is made out to be a moral obligation. I don’t have to forgive anyone. One way of moving on from the past is by not having a relationship w parents or these family members. A counselor once told me that forgiveness is: letting go of the belief that the past could be any different. Because our minds want to go back and change what happened and make our wrongs right. And we cant.
Omg exactly what I’m feeling I was beating myself up for not knowing what my problem was! What you said took weight off my shoulders! I actually got some compassion for myself! Thank you so much for what you do!!
Holding yourself in contempt for being resentful. That is a problem created by adults against children. Children are naturally forgiving. As long as adults do not carelessly or maliciously hurt a child, the child has no motivation for resentment.
Thank you!!! You’re the first person I’ve seen say this. I was severely abused by my parents, as well as raised in a cult. So many falsehoods have been drilled into my head. I’m trying so hard to continue figuring things out for myself, but mostly for my own children. I will not perpetuate the harm!! Thank you for saying these very unpopular, but true things.
I'm so happy to have found this channel! On the word forgiveness, i always found it useless: you might as well substitute it with "put a lid on it".
unfortunately the christian religion does plenty of abuse to victims, asking them to turn the other cheek to abusers and the bible even says that if u dont forgive then u will get even more demons to torment u! i kid u not and thats what i was told, its in the bible. abusers just LOVE that teaching so much! its makes the victim look like and asshole "oh u dont forgive me, ur terrible and u will get tormented by demons if u dont! jesus forgave me why cant u?" its horrid gaslighting! and yes daniel u are totally correct in that this forgiveness racket never really gets resolved. no matter what ur parents or anyone else does u dont have a right to get angry or feel rage or bitterness, u must forgive but guess what? that unresolved anger will only be heaped onto ur kids who then in turn have to forgive u and then the cycle continues w/ their kids. thats the price of repressing ur anger and forcing forgiveness. nothing gets resolved and it seems to foster abuse.
religion is a coping mechanism for many and i believe it was created as such, spiritual bypassing is de rigeur. it really sounds nice to forgive, unconditional love etc. how many people can unconditionally love someone? parents to kids? its rare. i think most kids unconditionally love our parents because we need them so much for everything, yet kids feelings are not validated as much as parents feelings are. forgiveness is also a beautiful concept but i think its pretty rare to truly forgive, and it being pushed onto people is very hurtful.
Within the Christian context my understanding of forgiveness is that, since God is the ultimate dispenser of justice, forgiveness is merely the act of not taking justice into our own hands (through acts of revenge which were quite common in the ancient world and still is in many societies). It's an acknowledgement that in our human frailty we don't always know what is best and, when hurt, will cause more damage to others as well as ourselves. That's why forgiveness is mostly about leaving things in God's hands. It doesn't mean that we cannot remove ourselves from harm's way, if this is necessary or possible, nor it does it mean that we continue to trust the offender. It also doesn't mean that we are not entitled to feel angry but merely we are not to use that anger destructively (like retaliating). When we are not able to remove ourselves from a situation, then the best solution is to pray for our enemies (which is encouraged even when we are able to remove ourselves from abuse). Prayer accomplishes two things: it brings the victim solace/peace (helps to let go of what is out of our control) while also calling on a higher power to intervene in the situation by either, ideally, changing the heart of the offender or by removing the victim from the situation. This system relies on a sense that the person doing the forgiving has faith and trust in God and His divine wisdom and mercy. It doesn't require, however, that we deny what happened or that we bury our feelings about the situation. Unfortunately forgiveness, within religion, has been distorted, used as a tool to avoid accountability as well as an excuse to perpetuate abuse which is not its intended purpose.
This is a good topic. An obligation to forgive is rife with opportunities to impunity and further abuse. As a parent, it shocks my conscience that any child would have cause to have an outstanding grievance against a parent. I would not want my son to go though such a thing. He knows that I would want to hear about it from him so that we could at least attempt to resolve it. Daniel, it seems possible that your parents are personality disordered. Being hurt by your parents is a terrible thing. Resolving that now, as an adult, may not be achieved by forgiveness. Rather, you might get some relief by a combination of understanding that they could not change, and the knowledge that you now have the power to protect yourself by avoiding them. It isn't the best of outcomes. But it might be the best given the circumstances.
I think Daniel may have worked this out for himself.
Good commentary! A lot of bad people hide behind a twisted concept of forgiveness to continue hurting people...false churches also propagate it...Jesus doesn’t even say to forgive unless someone genuinely repents
@@maricamaas2326 So in your narrative, what’s going to happen to them without a “functional relationship with Jesus”?
I was told to forgive people and I did. In the end I realized all I have to do is forgive myself. I will forgive a mistake but I will not forgive evil people.
I wonder if your parents watch your videos
- - Typical parental cop out, would they like a nice wooden cross to nail themselves to?
Thank you for this one, Daniel. Like you I seem to be seeing and hearing things all around me about forgiveness
As a kid, I just closed down and started to believe that all the different abuses weren't so bad, it was just life, and other people thought it was really bad.
Now in my mid 50's am I just tipping my toes in the water of being annoyed, and god forbid even a little angry at what they all did. Its like I'm angry inside, but expressing it that scares the hell out of me. I have killed everyone in my family off in my mind, or at least have them in a coma its easier to deal with with my crazy life now if they are all good as dead.
I'm using EMDR and finding it helpful to start processing my feelings. I don't see myself as forgiving them ever, I still don't hate them enough yet.
I think that whole forgiveness BS is a scam and is something thought up by folks that know they need to be forgiven for the heinous things they have done.
Exactly my sentiments! They do leave you with a ton of baggage of theirs to deal with. That’s enough work right there to be done first and foremost.
Wow Daniel the same thing happened to me. My family did the same thing and so did many counsellors and religious people. Now I see forgiveness as another way of putting it on the injured 🤕 child instead of people taking personal responsibility. Well said Daniel 😊💛
Thank you for this excellent topic. Some many times I have been told to figure people that physically and sexually abused me and severe neglect. Honestly I felt terrible inside because I simply couldn’t forgive those that literally damaged me and literally had no remorse in doing so.
I don't buy the B.S. that forgiveness is for yourself. Such baloney.
Thank you for this. Helps me understand things a lot. Forgiveness sounds so noble, but it does very little to prevent issues from reoccurring or deal with the products of trauma.
Yes it's a tough one. It's harder NOT to forgive because then one is forced to constantly wrestle with one's injury. Someone close to me once said "don't forgive them because you're worth taking revenge on them. They must pay because YOU'RE worth it!! Not to punish them is to let yourself down"
I have found that those who push forgiveness, don’t seem to have the patience to listen to or deal with trauma, and feel guilty, themselves, about traumas they’ve experienced (done by them and/or to them). I’ve always been told, “God will not forgive you unless you forgive others”. What crap! Aren’t we supposed to follow His example? First of all, He does not forgive us until there’s repentance, and only God has the power to completely forgive, throwing our imperfection as far as the east is from the west. All too often forgiveness=denial.What about past words or actions that we don’t remember? For most of us the list is too long.
I also won’t be forgiving my own father. Had words with him to yesterday and he made it all about himself. He didn’t even know I had a new job and how proud I was about it and now I don’t even know if I care to go back. What a disappointment me I’m just so mad and don’t know who to trust nor can o forgive at this point because no one could tell me what was going on or tell the truth so screw it
Agreed. Thank you for your uploads. I love listening to you speak! Perhaps the problem has more to do with the concept of being at peace. Most believe that being at peace requires making it with the other, when in fact it simply requires being at peace with oneself. This is an inner journey. For many, it seems too complex and requires creating too much perceived chaos to actually take responsibility by being honest in not forgiving. There is underlying guilt and shame to deal with too. Let’s face it! Those that get the short end of the stick in terms of their parental education have so much to work through, and not everyone finds the opportunities to work through the sludge of trauma.
I see forgiveness very differently. Perhaps I equate your definition with invalidation as opposed to forgiving. A matter of semantics, maybe? I see forgiveness as the final act of releasing the resentment and not condoning, allowing, or validating the behavior or action. I don't even necessarily see it as an act toward the other person. After healing from the trauma, anger, etc., when I can see how they may have been harmed and acted out their own trauma, I can empathize to a degree that helps me release the anger. I may never allow that person a space in my life, idealize past memories, or think highly of them, but I have been able to arrive at a place that I don't feel pain if I think about it. When I can do that, I feel I've forgave. It's more for me than anyone else. I certainly don't see it as a way to allow someone to continue bad behavior towards me, or invalidate how I feel about a situation. Again... maybe just semantics.
I cried a lot after watching this video. I was recently betrayed by someone and the worst part was that she had no remorse for what she’d done. There’s no way I’m forgiving her but the experience has made me wiser and I know now how to avoid such a predicament in the near future.
Great talk as always Daniel. This topic reminds me of my last relationship. My ex cheated on me and it stung really bad, so I temporarily broke up with her.. in that time period I was into new age spirituality.
I thought I was “supposed” to forgive and I wanted to bc I still deeply loved her, even though I now had immense anger toward her. So a few months after I found out she cheated I called her and told her I forgave her and then we tried to work things out again.
But underneath this “forgiveness” was anger, rage, and incredible sadness. I had not worked all of this out, so when I forgave her it was not genuine, and I’m sure she knew I was still holding onto animosity toward her.
Anyways, we ended up breaking up for good as red flags continued to present themselves, but after some time passed I reflected on this artificial forgiveness, and why I did that in that particular time period.
It was all rooted into thinking I was “supposed” to forgive and I always wanted to be a good person, do the right thing etc.
but I’ve now learned that this is not how true forgiveness works. True forgiveness is a process that takes time, sometimes years, and sometimes you might not be able to get to a point of true forgiveness at all.
I now believe you can only get to that place once you address all of the underlying hurt, sadness, anger etc. this cannot bypassed.
A quote that stuck with me from Robert Master’s book on spiritual bypassing:
“Forgiveness is often paved by hatred.”
That’s not something you hear taught a lot...
Thank you for sharing
4:45 I love that photo. Fantastic video. Your videos are always very insightful. Some people change, some people don’t.
Even though Alice Miller wasn't the best mother in the world, she was the first person I came across who bravely wrote "you don't have to forgive". I loved it. How do you forgive 44 years of abuse?? My parents irreversibly distroyed me emotionally so no, no forgiveness for them.
This video confirms what I have always believed - forgiveness gives permission to continue the abuse.
I absolutely agree with so much of what is being expressed here. The 'forgiveness agenda' is a striking characteristic of those who have made the decision to not do the hard work of addressing the realities of their own traumas. When it rears up in my experience, I immediately recognize that I am dealing with a soul that is desperately attempting to suppress their pain, and unconsciously bullying anyone who dares to FEEL.
On the other hand, I believe that once enough healing has taken hold, there is an organic acceptance that naturally emerges - I wouldn't precisely call it 'forgiveness' - rather, a reduction in hate, resentment, fear and self-loathing that results in a greater internal peacefulness. THIS feels honest - it's not the stifling of the truth in order to conform to societies norms...it's a state that emerges as we metabolize the truth of our OWN suffering...and THEN, in the next natural step, we organically begin to extend that understanding to ALL, including the perpetrators in our lives.
This does not mean that we condone their behavior, or that we remain passive if attacked. Quite the opposite: it means that we have reached a place of radical self-responsibility, and we are now ABLE, effortlessly, to perceive the generational wounding that informed the destructive behavior that they and we have engaged in. We understand, from the gut, that the forces of unconsciousness that drove the predatory behavior were too much for them. And if we're honest, we can easily see the times in our own lives when we have also been at the mercy of the toxic programming, and the harm that we have done.
It's my understanding that we ARRIVE at a place that may 'look like' forgiveness, once we actually plow through our own grieving...but it is not forced, it is not an attempt to avoid healing: it is the result.
much love.
OMG!!! I just love your commentary Daniel!!! You are just tooooo awesome! Another fantastic show if you have any desire to come on and talk about this!!! Maybe a better word for this forced “forgiveness” is indoctrination!!! To whoever’s party line is demanding it!
So agree Daniel. My forgiveness of others only hurt me more. Your honesty is very refreshing. Thank you Daniel
Finally someone who's being honest about all this forgive shit :)
If I could I'd hit 1000 times like button! Forgiveness doesn't offer emotional restitution, it only harms deeper and further. The only way out it through, and forgiveness is going the opposite way. Thanks Daniel
Go the opposite way. Good one. 👍
Wow 👏 Finally somebody who gets it. I was adopted my parents were very aristocratic and narcissistic and wanted me to be seen and not heard but They actually didn’t even care much about the seen part lol. Showing any emotion was something they “played the worlds smallest violin” for and I was called worthless and silenced every time I opened my mouth. So I learned how to fit in with all the jerks and created an adult world full of them. I became successful at a very young age and spiritual and a great parent and I was still shamed by my family and not included. That was the day I said it doesn’t matter what I do it’ll never be good enough and I quit giving a shit about pleasing anybody but myself. And I still have a tendency to occasionally get drawn in by the next psychic vampire until I snap back and remember forgiving them over and over and over changes NOTHING. I reopened the door to my best childhood friend and it was just the same thing all over again. Forgiving did nothing but triangulate me into a continual ridiculing shame. Now I cut them off and send them love from AFAR.
Great video......would love a great conversation with you...very poweful and true.....never commented on a video before about meeting someone..keep up the good work
I know exactly what you mean. The first time I didnt forgive they attacked me, wrote me out and gave Me the silent treatment. Forgiveness is not the solution to this mess.
Thank you so much for this. Even as a good Christian girl that believes forgiveness has its place, even I can relate to this. Your videos in general are so helpful. Even though you are no longer a therpist, you are still so helpful and enlightening and for that, I thank you.
Daniel...
why should you "Hurry"up anything? why should anyone?
when we discover to have been into such kind of problems the first thing to do isnt to be gentle to ourselves?
what I mean is that the person who told you and pushed you in that way is mean not understanding that whatever will be will be when and if you will feel it.
I forgave my parents but still, this doesn't mean I haven't to deal daily with the problems they created in my life?, and noticing this i do not mean to sink into self lamentations and so on but jsut being objective and seeing how much I struggle to cope with life now.
I forgave them and that happened all at a sudden unexpectedly when I saw them in my same situation and I udnerstood the difference between me and them: I was havig this WAKE UP they never had it, so they never had the chance to ehal themselves and provide me of what I needed and ..they needed too.. SO yes i forgave thema nd that has been really a relief and helped me deeply to keep dinstances and do not suffer anymore i that deep way..but them sure all this doesn't mean that now i HAVE TO implement a daily care rutine for myself that before all this discovery I never needed untill I had my melt down..
SO man, be serene, forgiveness will arrive IF it will arrive and if not..ehhh we are sorry for THEM!!
a big huge hug to one of your fans..your honestly is really appreciated!!
I struggle with forgiving anyone.
I REALLY don't like people the way I used to.
The past few months, I'm getting REALLY sick of people asking me if I'm okay or if I'm all right. It's so rude.
I seriously don't see any good in other people anymore.
😆😆😆😆
Same
I have been thinking about this topic for 30 years since the days when I was verbally abused repeatedly in college and then I ended up snapping at some girl who was infatuated with me and it had a big effect on her and her future. I went through all the emotions back and forth for years, re experiencing the worst about 10 years later and unleashing the same kind of verbal abuse on the perpetrators that I had experienced. Then even more years thinking about what I did and why. The emotions only disappeared when I started learning about personality disorders and aloplastic defences. Then I understood my actions and the actions of the others then and 10 years later. In my experience it is good to know about these topics to be able to put things in perspective, otherwise you can fumble with your traumas forever.
I HATE even hearing words like “Forgiveness,” when it’s used in a hyper vague way that has so much other potential meaning buried underneath its utterance.
It breaks my brain.
I've been down this road, of getting more abuse for my healthy responses to abuse. Excellent insights here!
This is such an important video. There's such a strong push for 'forgiveness' in a lot of therapy circles, a lot of religious groups, and a lot of conformist social groups in general. What no one seems to acknowledge on a really deep level is that forgiveness needs to be *earned* and I mean earned in full. Depending on the crime, saying "sorry" isn't enough. Even changing behaviour isn't enough. If you spend 20+ years terrorising someone, or neglecting them, or starving them of love when they had no choice but to rely on you... then to earn forgiveness you would need 20+ years of working *hard* to do the opposite of that.
And all of this needs to be actually catered to the victim, their needs and their schedule. It's no use sitting by yourself 'feeling sorry' when they have had to separate from you for their own safety. Feeling truly sorry is a good thing for an abuser to do, but it's more helpful for them than their victim. The practice of feeling sorry is moreso an early stage in the abuser's own healing, it's not a token to be shoved at the victim with forgiveness expected in return. It's no use sending someone money or gifts or aggressively offering favours they didn't ask for, when what they needed for all those years was for you to really listen, really accept criticism, reflect on yourself, work on yourself, ask what they need and follow through. Throwing random crap at the problem (when it's convenient to you, and only when it's stuff you didn't need anyway) and then being like "there I fixed it. Now you have no excuse not to forgive me." Does not show any of the growth that is needed for forgiveness to arise.
Nobody should be pushed to forgive. Some things are truly unforgivable. Some people do absolutely nothing to warrant forgiveness. It's up to each individual to listen to their own needs, and carefully follow the healthy internal voices which are telling them what they need to survive and to thrive. For some people in some situations, forgiveness will never be a part of that.
You have been the amplifier of my scared inner voice which has been silenced for so long as sinful, dangerous and evil. It is so far from that, but I lived my life believing the lies of all those who were supposed to love me and care for me. Wounded people that avoid healing at all cost. But because of you, I now know that I can trust this little voice. It is still not easy, but when something feels weird I say "what would Daniel say?" (something like "what would Tommy Zoom do?") and I find the courage to challenge beliefs and habits of a lifetime. THANK YOU 🙏
And what is it with these tea bags and forgiveness????
Fake, lazy forgiveness is just suppression, illusion and ego.Ppl often want to help without having done the work themselves and wityhout having the maturity and empathyu, knowledge to do it in goiod ways, unfortunately. But it is a good thing, and 12-step programs can really help.
So good to see another video from you. Excellent topic! Thanks for sharing your thoughts and experiences. I find this knowledge much more valuable than the textbook information in my psychology studies. Greetings from Toronto, Canada.
Dan you are a badass thank you so much for these videos bro. Means a lot to me.
Sorry for this thesis paper of a comment but I just want to say - thanks for this very real and refreshing insight on forgiveness! So many attributes like "forgiveness", "kindness" etc are used as a form of avoidance by narcissistic people and as toxic positivity by their now-codependent victims. Too many people aren't held accountable in the name of forgiveness. Our very intuition and reflex (which are authentic/appropriate) are thwarted by this misguided concept of forgiveness.
My emotionally and physically abusive parents (especially mom who would beat me repeatedly) got a free pass from having to take responsibility with all the forgiving I was doing. She would feel bad at her volatile episodes, yes, but never had the awareness or the shame to put that same effort that got put into her anger to instead seek help. The abusive cycle continued for a very long time. It's only after going no contact (as of last year at 35) that I'm enforcing some sense of boundaries and accountability (not that they understand). Cue the flying monkeys that came crawling out of the woodwork to preach going back in contact in the name of forgiveness.
I think the No Contract primarily came after I began to awaken to my own behavioral issues that I'd been exhibiting, which I had been unaware of for the longest time. I was realizing that I was pretty much feral compared to my healthier peers. I went No Contact really because I realized how much of a liability I could be toward others with the same volatile temper, anger outbursts, poor impulse control - all traits that I grew up around at home and had ingested. My sense of selfrespect and dignity finally kicked in which made me seek therapy to protect others and then go No Contact from my parents to protect myself (so that I would not be retraumatized). The family that came crawling out of the woodworks have largely been spared of witnessing my mothers' behavior and treatment toward me, as well as the way I went on to act out so I take their message of forgiveness to be baseless and unrealistic.
Unfortunately, my therapist also preached the forgiveness song after she realized I went No Contact with my parents. I seem to remember my therapist saying that her parents were also abusive and unnurturing, that her brother chose to go no contact but she stayed on. That felt like a red flag to me and in time I dropped her too.
I think gaslighting kids into forgiveness and forcing one to forgive are the underpinnings of how people develop Stockholm Syndrome - where they are made to feel bad for feeling bad, and they are made to feel bad for their anger/resent/wanting different healthy/better things. They see this honesty and authenticity as too bold and too big which I would imagine is overwhelming for people who have gone their entire lives being small and excusing/allowing/enabling abuse. This gimmick of forgiveness is just so pervasive in our society. I think forgiveness should be taught as something that needs to be earned, just like trust - and like trust, takes time... a LOT of time. That it should come with waiting and watching, not be given out like candy. I'm now very slow to forgive. I also feel much better and it reaffirms my own realness and worth, when I allow myself to be slow with forgiving. I feel like this is me responding than just reacting.
Ufffff Daniel, is scary how right you could be on this video…
Duuuuuuuuuude!! This is so TIMELY and SPOT ON!! I've been talking about this very SUBJECT alot lately at my Alanon mtgs! I love that Alanon has a saying that I've been using for the past 29+ years "take what u NEED and LEAVE the rest!" also "I have choices in EVERY ASPECT of my LIFE!" It's been told to me that no matter what forgiveness is freeing! I refute that with..... NOT TILL I FULLY PROCESS THE HURT!! I'm going through this with a number of significant people in my life right now and it kind of SUCKS! By chance last night i ran into a female friend of mine that I've been estranged from at the supermarket. For some reason my wall fell and i put my arms out and we ended up hugging! It felt good to me that it happened ORGANICALLY....... When my dad died, i dnt cry, he could be very hurtful in a # of ways, but at times very loving(he made it possible for me to take Piano lessons at age 12) He did me a LIFE LONG SERVICE with that! 46 years later Piano continues to SUPPORT me $ wise and on a SPIRITUAL level i can't even begin to explain how WONDERFUL it is! He was also AMAZING when i came out as Gay to him and my mother! When they took him off the respirator i closed his eyes, kissed him on the forhead, held his hand and said "go home dad" i was so greatful we were on positive terms with his untimely death. When i gave his eulogy i was able to say positive things about him and concluded with. "I thank my dad for accepting me exactly the way i was" Which was the truth..... I shocked myself when i dnt cry when my mom passed! The road to her death was quite arduous!! With the dealings with: my(practically estranged brother) & caregivers. I do tons of SOUL SEARCHING on this topic and really try and see the larger picture. Sometimes it works for me sometimes not! I honor myself by giving myself the time i need.... You are a wonderful gentle soul. I look forward to learning alot from you in the future through yr own soul searching.....Peace and many hugs always....ern :-)
I do agree with you in all you said. The one who tells me to forgivne those who inflicted me pain in different ways is my enemy. He/she doesn't know what he is speaking about. All the healing is about to express repressed feelings. That is what therapy should be about...
This is really powerful and extols a great deal of what Alice Miller the Swiss psychologist had worked out. Her book “ The life of the gifted child” is probably the seminal work on trans generational trauma and how parents traumatise their children. Miller says we should hold our parents accountable for their mistakes as forgiving them will never uproot the trauma and resolve it. Millers son subsequently spoke about how his mother traumatised him as a child. She did not however come to her conclusions until after her son had reached adulthood. Great video Daniel thanks for putting your views into the public domain.
This is a fascinating subject. I, the other day, was talking about forgiveness to my therapist because I have been trying to 'forgive' lately so I can move forward. Seeing this has made me stop, and I now need to re-evaluate what I am doing and what this truly means.
Spot on! I thought I'd 'forgiven' my abuser but negative feelings are starting to come to the surface again because I'm starting to respect my feelings (they won't be ignored anymore!) So the more I'm started to value myself the more angry I feel about how appallingly I was treated. Forgiving someone can (not always) damage your self esteem.
TOTALLY, TOTALLY, TOTALLY - you are right !!!!!!!! I could write a book about this !!!!! Forgiveness is CONDITIONAL !!!! If someone wants forgiveness they will do EVERYTHING, EVERYTHING in their power to BE sorry. Without that there is NO forgiveness. Being forgiven cannot be coerced, otherwise it is NOT forgiveness. God doesn't forgive people who are not sorry, so why should we? We should not.
Damn, what you said about people forgiving at 5:48 and what it usually leads to for them, couldn't have been said any better.
Good day Daniel! Thank you .. for your candid guidance.. and rational perspectives!!
Just discovered your videos, thank you Daniel, you have just described my childhood to a T.
Same here. I feel freer now that I am no or minimal contact with parents.
U just loooove not seing them, visiting them!! 💖
I agree. Forgiveness is highly overrated, actually a load of BS.
Forgive is to overcome anger, disappointment, hurt that was brought to us by others or us alone, in our eyes and understanding.
Forgetting will be to completely cease memory of what happened.
People usually forget only, as forgiving and not forgetting is lot more complex and time and energy consuming endeavour. Very conscious effort, that can exhaust and challenge ones mind, body and soul.
Do forgive for your own good and do NOT forget for a same reason.
I hear you and hate how the majority always seem to go to the forgiveness narrative, do so from a good place (possibly) but it is truly wicked!! They unfairly violate victims again by attempting to force something unnaturally.
People should pray that victims reach the place where they choose to forgive but until then they should remain silent especially when there is justified anger.
I appriciate these videos, very eloquent and well fought. However, with all due respect mr. Mackler most probably does not have children (I think that on another video he promotes not having children). And he seems so retisent about pain and trauma that he seems prone to make other human relationships problematic. Life is traumatic, it starts at birth... look at the cross at Calvary; its passion, love and pain united.
Interesting. I'd never heard of this concept before.
Forgiveness should never be ingenuine, so therefore not pushed by a therapist or other people. It should come from a place of your own. If and when you can forgive should be in your own time. I had to forgive my father, but it was on my time, not everyone else's urging me to do so.
This I would call falsh forgivness - because it's not. The real forgiveness is the one you get too after you have taken care of your feelings. You don't forgive for others but yourself! If you don't forgive it will eat you up inside. To forgive doesn't mean forgetting and having to have those people in your life - it just mean you are not carrying that weight around with you anymore because you have resolved those feelings inside you.
And I'll add forgiving can take a long time and it's not something you can force your way to. Forgiveness is when you are ready through and through to let go of that pain and resentment for the people who did this to you. But again it's not for them - it's for you! You don't ever have to tell them.
I would've changed the word to acceptance then not forgiveness. Accept what is and move on and know they can't mess with your mind anymore once you have managed to get away and work through your trauma. I call that acceptance not forgiveness I'm not even at the managed to have moved away from their house stage so acceptance will not happen yet. I'm still forgiving to survive eye roll
You hit the nail on the head. Letting go is not for them, It's for you! The anger and rage gave me all kinds of physical ailments. But since I cut my mother loose and healed emotionally, that anger is gone and I'm physically healthy . The best thing I did for myself was to let it all go. And of course go no contact, but let it go.
Thank you Daniel. I do not think anyone is helping another by pushing forgiveness on someone else.
a lot depend on what forgiveness means to you. if forgiveness means saying its ok what you did and lets keep going as if nothing happened than I wouldn't ever recommend forgiveness. I see that I did a lot of that as a child out of necessity,survival as you described so nicely in your video. I didn't realize it until you put it in the video and that explains a lot.
As an adult, a therapist and an MD defined forgiveness as acknowledging what the person did, accepting it and then no longer holding them accountable for it so that it frees you up from the anger and hatred that locks you into relationship with them. it doesn't mean you agree with what they did. you know it was wrong. it frees you from waiting for them to acknowledge or admit their responsibility for what they did or waiting for them to say they feel bad about they did. because lets face it, chances are that's never going to happen. I still hold them accountable for what they did. however there is no one else on this beautiful planet of ours who does. the statute of limitations for child abuse has run out. the perpotrators are going on living their lives without a care. This way I am free to move forward and give them, very little if any thought. it helps to realize you've got to be pretty messed up to hurt a child . WTF?!!
I agree with you that forgiveness shouldn't be automatic, but at the same time I wonder when is it actually a good thing. I myself struggle with the concept and I would like to know when you think forgiveness is good and when is it even warranted. I think you hinted at the fact that the other person needs to change first in order to deserve forgiveness, but I also think it would great if you expanded on the topic
I know you didn't ask me but I think you can still forgive someone who refuses to change. You may have to remove yourself from them though and that can be a scary prospect. "Samantha, the way you have treated me this week was horrible. I can't spend time with you until you acknowledge your actions and make some improvement." That can be very difficult to say. It may not come out the way you wanted it to. Chances are also that the person who is attacking you will respond with rage, aggression, and denial and may even accuse you instead.
I think forgiveness works when someone really doesnt realize what they did to hurt you, and then change or, at least, acknowledge it. Forgiveness and apologies are a two way street, it should never be one way
I disagree. You can apologize sincerely without the other person forgiving you and you can forgive without the other person sincerely apologizing.
you are authentic indeed.... and so much to learn from you
God this is so true. Fantastic thank you
You can't ask forgiveness from a child because at the very least you wrong the child 3 times. First with the initial wrong. Second by cashing in on a child's natural inclination to be gracious. Thirdly when the child grows up and develops into an adult and wants to deal with the issues of the past as an adult, they are told that they are opening a can of worms. The best thing is to acknowledge that you wronged the child and change in a direction that no longer harms the child and offer to the adult that they become the opportunity to process the wrongs as an adult giving yourself no advantage. If you can't do that then don't wrong the child in the first place.
So then how do you deal with the trauma of abuse instead of sweeping it under the rug of forgiveness?
This is great - thank you Daniel. I agree that healing ourselves is a better focus. I do wonder, though, if after enough healing,, forgiveness (in the literal sense of "ceasing to be resentful") can possibly be a natural consequence. I'm not "there" yet, so I can't say for sure.
I've met people who seem to use the forgiveness card a sort of spiritual bypass- as if saying they've forgiven someone is enough without doing the deep inner work, and I call BS on that. But they probably do it because someone pushed them into "forgiving" in the first place!
I also realized upon listening that part of the issue may be that the connotation of the word "forgive" implies a lot more than the actual strict definition. (I went with the Merriam-Webster online definition as my source.)
I agree with that part of 'ceasing to be resentful'! I think and feel the same. It's not a conscious act of forgiveness, just the end of your pain.
Loreta - Thank you. That's from the actual definition. The thing is, though, that the word "forgiveness" is so loaded - the actual way people (including me!) understand it is a lot more than that. Another youtuber suggested "detaching" rather than forgiving. I like that idea, too.
What you're describing is not true forgiveness, when you truly forgive there is a lightness, a freeing feeling, you feel your heart swell, there a release of tension anger and fear. A feeling of love and understanding enters into your being and you never lose it again.
Henry Hill Hmmmmmm????
I think you have to do both; really deal with what happened, fully acknowledge it and even confront the other persons. You cannot control how they will respond to you. They can continue to deny it- that’s their own journey.
But, there is something very freeing and healing about walking away from your past hurts (after facing them squarely in the eyes!) and not letting that hurt continue to define you. Forgiving sets yourself free from the past and it’s laying down a burden so you can move forward with the rest of your life without bitterness.
BTW, I appreciate your honesty and sincerity- you have a heart of gold! Thanks for your posts.😊
Forgiveness is a total myth. The only way one can forgive if the guilty apologizes.
Thank you Daniel. You are a shining star in a universe of denial
Great video!!
Thank you for this Daniel - needed this today
I totally agree with you Daniel.
I had a priest say to me you need to forgive. And I asked him I sed father does God forgives those who don’t even ask for forgiveness. And I tell you,you should have seen the look of bewilderment came over his face. He was not expecting that and he was stumped by it for a minute or so and then he looked at me with a look that I could see he was still processing the question and he says.no,no he doesn’t. And I feel the same way. I’ll not forgive you if you don’t express any desire to be forgiven.
You can forgive without having contact.
This speaks to me on so many levels.
Ill never forgive and ill never forget and thats that!
I agree I’ve been to a church that would preach forgiveness and it really traumatized me.
Forgiveness is an utterly meaningless word to me.
Thank you someone who talks the truth.