Just to highlight a few things, some mentioned by others: Remember to read the special "Toying" Victory and Loss conditions for the Pursuer (and the Toying trait, of course, which makes it do perhaps a third of it's non-Toying Danger output). Yes, the fight is difficulty, largely due to the higher To Hit Rating and AT values, but it's actually less punishing than fights against the core Primordials in some ways, as you can only lose 1, then 2, then 3, then finally 4, Titans, across your first several battles. Many people lose the first encounter or two, but unlike the core Primordials, the Pursuer doesn't actually get stronger throughout the Cycle (technically, because it's true a longer battle to deal more Wounds means encountering higher level AI and BP cards, which can be nasty). It at least doesn't gain any new traits. There is a similar situation that happens against the Alpha Temenos when first encountered, that really humbles you. Also, I may have misinterpreted what you said, but the edges of the board don't count as "cliffs" unless the battle setup specifies them as such, such as with the higher leveled Hekaton. Even a Knockback 10 from the Pursuer will still only cause you to slide along the edge of the battle map. Getting back to the battle due to the Knockback distance is the real issue from it, typically. Positioning to be Knockbacked into a Column can be the better option to avoid needing to run back, if you have methods to Stand Up the Titan. For what it's worth, while I haven't lost to the Pursuer during my campaign yet, nearly every battle has ended with almost all of my Titans just one more Attack or Ambrosia application from death. He's a tough nut to crack. It's technically possible to kill it in Cycle 1 while it's not Toying (an Awakening has almost always been involved), but only a few people have made that claim on the Discord, and most of them later admitted to messing up rules when pressed on it. Anyway, while I hate to see the reason why, I'm glad to see you've picked up the ATO Scribe App. Note that it does have an option in the settings to save a Backup (remember to do this when and if you advance to Cycle 2, in case you ever want to check your end of Cycle stats for Cycle 1 when advancing the Cycle). It can also be useful to create "checkpoints" for your campaign, I suppose. I haven't done that personally, but I know some people like to do things like create a "checkpoint" when they reach a major story point, like changing Story Cards, in case they want to reset from there due to a confluence of bad luck, and not wanting to potentially restart the campaign entirely if they would otherwise lose.
slight spoilers, but mostly rules I missed and found out that may be useful: My book says that after the first titan dies in the pursuer battle you go to the tease loss aftermath so it doesn't just auto wipe your team while you are still weak. Also make sure you are applying the tease debuffs. Also idk if it was you but some TH-camr was complaining about the hekatrap exploration card constantly triggering, but if you read the text carefully you permanently remove it from the exploration deck after resolving it once and you do not evolve the primordials during the ambush battle. Also I have found the whale knives from the advanced tririme weapons tech to be the most substantial power boost, alongside the initial support gear, you can get early on. Placing 2 breaks with arrow barrage and then using the whale knives, hopefully hitting with all 3 dice and opening x allowing up to 3 break tokens to be placed + the kratos table tokens builds a pretty good kratos pool for a heavier hitting weapon, which the same tech provides, to hit and wound a higher level BP card pretty consistently. I've been really enjoying the game, but I have always been an optimizer who wants to find the best combination of gear and skills to become the most potent, and push my resources to the limit to eek out the most advantage. I've found the hekaton and labarintharaus manageable and I'm up to lvl 3 with them, only losing 2 titans to them total, but tememos and the adversary still seem unbeatable, and only not disasters because of there early stopping mechanisms which limit the damage. Also note my obol draws have been a bit lucky, I set them out and roll a dice so it's fair but I've probably drawn you live 3-4 more times than I should've. (Though I also have spent 6+ argo fate on hope logic and missed every single one) I also employ 'save scum' logic which is outside the rules, essentially if some unforseen action or consequence come up in a fight we're if I had taken a slightly different action just before (forgetting to heal, moving to a real bad square, being one break tokens short of a wound while I still have arrow barrage charges etc) I just change it so it's as of I did take that action. Thus every game state is a potentially legal one, but just more optimal than my original choice where I had a bit less information. Also I am full paper gang, but I am sorry for your loss, though it is slightly, just a bit funny.
Hey Tom, loving your play through and I hope you continue, I notice some of the comments have pointed out some things that may have gotten wrong, I hope it helps you with some of the issues you had
Keep going! Apparently you were missing some important details for fighting the Pursuer. I want to know your experience next time you face the Pursuer.
Adversary has very important functions: reducing Argo fate, resetting the triskelions, providing resources, giving a chance to get special gear. Growing you into someone stronger by giving you an incentive to research better gear, coming up with better tactics and giving you fighting experience. You have to fight a lot in this game, play it slowly but fight, don’t skip the fights! When I was about to face it for the 3rd time I choose to stand against him on my own terms, not running from it, and I destroyed it with a gear I got up to that point with an experience I got . From previous battles. At some point you will become a hunter and will treat him as an animal in the slaughter house.
The Adversary has 2 functions: attrition (it makes you lose Gear and Titans), and resetting stats (Triskelions). Later in the game, you’ll actually WANT to encounter it to decrease the Argo Fate. Also don’t forget that for the first and second fights against it, you can call it a defeat as soon as you lose 1 and 2 Titans respectively (check the defeat condition). You probably won’t be able to kill it in Cycle I, but if you keep at it, you’ll eventually be able to fulfill the lesser win condition. I understand your frustration though. Losing this app data must be really deflating.
I really enjoy this series but I understand the frustration, if you don't keep going with ATO I would like to see these kind of video's with other campaign games!
I'm loving this series! I really hope you continue, but I'm sorry you had a frustrating experience. However, if you're not enjoying yourself, no need to be sorry if you don't want to continue.
My personal take on the series its that: They are fun! Its cool to see the journey and share the joys and struggles that we ourselves faced before. The app disaster sucks tough. (My possible tip for the fights is that you should take the accuracy tokens over the breaks for the first part of the showdowns to ensure your titans hit and are able to left more tokens, therefore mittigating the luck to hit. Also, the argo abilities are very much helpful!)
You did play with the Toying trait enabled, right? And cut the fight short as soon as your first titan died? That battle is unbeatable, but it gives you some good material to craft with. And it's short since it ends after the first titan dies. I hope the campaign goes back to being fun for you. Otherwise, I would suggest to just skip the Pursuer battles if you are getting negative enjoyment from them. Good luck with the rest of the campaign. I enjoy this series of videos
I really like this so even if you weren’t going to play this anymore going through a campaign like this with updates is really fun. Doing a different game like tainted grail or even sleeping gods would be fun to watch.
Hey Tom. Any update on if this series is continuing? I dont see any comment from you like you said in the video so fingers crossed you are still playing through :)
I think you may have missed the "Toying" trait that means the pursuer doesn't hit as hard. Also in the setup for the fight for the win/lose conditions you'll see that you can terminate the fight when the first titan dies (the first time you encounter the pursuer). The win condition also shows that you "only" need 4 wounds (iirc) to win the fight the first time you encounter the pursuer. This scales up further into the campaign though, but you do get quite nice tech from the pursuer, so it's worth it, even if you do lose some titans.
I think its more than the first time. Even when you flee if im not mistaken you dont evilve the pursuer? So that means it stays likr that for quite a while.
I'm so sorry for the loss of progress via app. It would frustrate anyone for sure. I myself track both in paper and on app. When I start C2 I might try Scribe.
Scribe is way better. Besides having backups, the best part of scribe imo is the gear section of the app. It automatically shows you what tech leads to what. It also shows what gear is available based on the resources you currently have as well as the gear youve already made. Prior to this i found it too painstaking to try and check what a piece of gear does, than check to see what resources i need to make it on another card, than check to see if i have those resources.... Now with the app, what ill do is click the button to craft a piece and notate what i made during this crafting phase. Now as i go on clicking the scribe button to add gear it automatically deducts those resorces and conversely, since im notating what i made i can remove the gear i crafted to add those resources back in and try diddferent combinations of what ill craft that day. Much more manageable this way than writing it down, adding and subtracting by hand what i made or what i could make. Overall the story is fantastic, this is by far the best game ive ever played. Yes its incredibly deep, there are a LOT of rules to remember. Player aids are key in the beginning. Im 100hrs in and still looking up rules regularly bc i like to be sure im doing it correctly. Despite that, this is one of the best rulebooks ive ever encountered. While there are a lot of rules, rarely am i confused by what they mean. Games like this have a lot of depth and staying power. Ill never sell this game and will likely leave it in my will to my nephew. I cant eait for ItUs future games, this company has serious staying power. They have a customer for life. I really hope many board game lovers like Tom can get through the initial hump the large set of rules do present. Underneath all of them is a magnificent and crowning achievement that should not be missed. I do understand how he feels losing all his data on their official app, that sucks super hard.. if i was Tom i might take a break too, although id be afraid is tart to forget rules. Might be best to pick it back up again quickly and get back in to it. That being said, i think content creators cant really give games like this enough time. They have too many games to play and too many rulebooks to learn each week. I know i couldnt handle that, all the rules from the last 5 rulebooks im simultaneously reading would start to bleed together. So i dont blame tom for putting it down, but i hope he recognizes the brilliance of games like this for many people. Probably mostly for people who are experienced and NOT content creators. CC simply have too many games to play. My two cents... Oh and PS to Tom. I stated before i am ass at tactical games. I can see strategy eventually but im usually late to that party. I suggest checking bgg or the discord on how to handle fighting primordials. Theres a specific strategy and makes fighting them much easier than without them. Im notoriously unlucky and im managing pretty well. Worth reiterating if you missed it that you can flee many of the early battles if 2 titans die. Youll get more titans anyway. Good luck Tom and hope to hear about you one day covering how deep and wonderful this game is and that youre disappointed it took a while to notice it. Once you do you wint be able to go back. Its why there is so much reverence from peoole who like it and such terrible thiughts from people who dont. Those who dont didnt get to the juice bc they gave up midway through the squeeze. Happy gaming Tom!
Hey, I had at the beginning similar problems as you mentioned, cause I was trying to also play the game like, try to hit the monster with everything I got and hope for the dice went in my favour haha. But then I started reading a few blogs from a user on BGG about battle tactics, and I must say, it makes a significant difference. From those articles I first got how important OOR is, and how to be able to achieve, and also, another really important things, it that not all your titans need to try and wound the primordial. For instance you could have one titan be the heavy hitter, maybe another one as well, but then you have one titan, that might carry some weapon which hits easier, and also leaves opening tokens behind. So maybe it will not wound, but he will prepare the scene for your hitter to deal the damage. And I imagine that going on to Cycle 2 will make this more important as I can imagine going just for rolling and try to hit and wound as a tactic might go poorly. Keep it up! Really enjoying these series, and hopefully we can see you on a next episode!!
The game is certainly not for everyone... I went through a part in mid game where I did feel a bit stagnant and under powered in the fights, however, now, near the end of cycle 1 i feel my titans have so many levers to pull and buttons to press, that combat becomes quite tactical as to who does what and when and where from. Still a bit dependent on good or bad dice rolls, but that part of the thrill of rolling dice isn't it? The pursuer is still tough, my titans are also tough but are also beaten up thoroughly by the end of the fight ... win or loose. The combats are much more thinky now than when I started, and it was very much run in and hit, now its who should i activate first, where should they stand, do they activate such in such to help titan B now or keep till later, do i hit as hard as i can now on the easier BP or should try for something with a better result on a harder BP. Such a lot to think about. And I havent mentioned titan fit outs before the battle with how do i want to run the fight and which is the best titan to have such in such item..... I am enjoying it more now than earlier for sure.
Just for context - we are around Day 35 now, have never faced the Pursuer. Part of this 'bad' experience may have simply been that you ran into this enemy too early.
I dunno man, I play with a very good player (he wins tournaments all the time) and we are not finding it as difficult as you describe it. we just started cycle 2, so we had our fair share of fights. in time you learn what each enemy does and can plan and equip accordingly. other than that we always use the following three abilities: healing, opening or break tokens, +1 rage. we always have at least one tank (usually two) who need to keep the priority target and can mitigate damage as much as possible. we never crafted spears or bows, we always used melee weapons since they're the ones with the best stats. playing tons of ATO you improve in the little things, since they make all the difference. the game is not fair, so you must optimize every little thing to succeed, and that comes with practice. keep it up tom, game's great IMO
I have similar feelings even though I won almost every fight. It is hard and sometimes I feel like there is a lot of random and not a lot of fun. Tactical choices while present is quite limited, and what worries me a lot - the technology tree has no branching at all. I can craft almost every item, and I have almost all the technologies. I do not see that those items change my gameplay much. The story is okay though I would say it is _too much_ story and bookkeeping and too few actual game. I am still playing through 2/3 Cycle 1 but not sure I am going to play Cycle 2.
I've enjoyed this series a lot, not the least because it does not seem to be a game I'll ever get to play but if the app can't be trusted and combat isn't fun then I for sure would not be upset if you bin it. :D
Pls read the Pursuer battle setup and enemy card properly. It's a valid advice for every new enemy. As many pointed out, it appears that u made critical mistakes potentially by browsing the battle setup too fast. It's well known that it's a complex game, which translates to potentially new rules for new enemies, which certainly was the case as the Pursuer was supposed to leave after killing 1 titan on the first battle, and you are supposed to win if u do 3 wounds (IIRC). This last part... that you only need to wound less times is a piece of rule that transform the battle from impossible to challenging, and balanced to your progress. I battle the Pursuer ~5x. I lost 1st, 3rd and 4th battle. I won 2nd and 5th. Even when I lost I got resources out of it that made me able to build interesting gear. :)
I wonder if you played the fight wrong? The first time you fight him the fight ends after one titan dies, he also starts with the Toying trait which makes him significantly easier. But he is hard and you will lose to him by design. But as someone who has "beaten" him multiple times (while he has the toying trait) I can assure you its doable.
We just finished the campaign 1 book... and failed.... We've put 120h +/- on the campaign just to get shafted at the finish line... I know you have to earn your victories... but 4 dads with kids... we simply don't have the time or willpower to redo that all over again... just for a maybe... we've sacrified tabletime for other games for this story... and it let us down. The ups and downs were fun... but sadly we won't see the end of this game since we simply have no time to give it anymore...😢 Love the game hate the lenght. At least KDM is upfront about it's concept.
Sorry you had such a bad time. enjoyed listening to your game. Not something I would donate my time too with Frosthaven being a current challenge but I do hope the game gets recovered and you start enjoying it more. Maybe there was a key rule you missed and then you just feel DUMB.
Folks, even if Tom plays himself down, just remember that he is a reviewer with decades of expirience and I am sure that he is quite thorough in how he approaches the game. So even with such skills the game is still cumbersome, I get the Impression that this is the classic unrefined experience you get from a fresh kickstarter which focused more on the stretch goals than playtest.
This is not an example of Kickstarter bloat and lack of refinement. It's incredible just how well-refined it is. However, it's also a very complex game and it's very easy to miss or forget things, especially when playing solo.
Exactly Will. The rulebook is one of the better written ones ivr come across. There are a LOT of rules, but nearly alm are clear. Tom seems like a great dude, but glancingnover the rulebook wont allow someone to play and aopreciate this game.
Honestly Tom, if you are struggling with strategy you'll be well served to look up tactics if you're not discovering them on your own. If you can't figure out how to take advantage of when to escalate, when to attack vs pass, who needs to attack before who to add more of the appropriate break/opening tokens in to the pool, Window of Opportunity and how to Evade so you are out of reach. You can't just run up in a random order of who happens to be closest without considering the above. Knockback/Knockdown and how crash will effect movement the following turn to that titan and other titans that get knocked in to. It's not that it's not good, I think you are just missing vital strategies.
We're not luddites. We're realists. I mean really, after what just happened to you? And probably a dozen more digital information losses that you can remember, I most certainly can quadruple that. In my office there are certain documents that I am required to keep hard copies of. Because I absolutely have to have them. No "Oopses" allowed. If after putting dozens of hours into the game, you are satisfied with saving it digitally, then you should be just as satisfied to start all over again when the data disappears. If not, don't do that. If you are upset, you should be upset with your choices. Or you could also be upset with our cultures divinization of digital technology, which you seem to have bought into. It ain't perfect and never will be. Print and save. Hard copies rule. Anyway, do a barn job on getting about back to where your were and keep going. I don't want to give up on this soap opera. And print and save.
Disagree vehemently. Kdm is just a dice chucker. Run up, smack, get hit back. Use srivival if i have it. See random shit thay happens. Hunt my 42nd white lion in a row or gorm to obtain that gear set. Trigger terrible random hunt event like acid rain. Go back to showdown to fight boring ass white lion or gorm. Rince and repeat. Get drstroyed by nemesis. Escalation deck and inverted combat paradigm the kratos table provides makes battles much kore tactical andninterestinf for ato. Its a landslide win imo, i feel like most who make the claim you just did never really gave ato a shot. Ive played both for well over 100 hrs.
@@adam551982 my statement reflects my personal opinion. I was mentioning the combat system not the entire game (your mixing things up here). For me AOE would be a lot more enjoyable if the combat would be more like in KDM and not like a over complicated KDM mod (again this is my opinion). I prefer the story telling of AOE over the RNG of KDM by a mile. (IMHO the best combat system is in Gloomhaven | Frosthaven)
I guess you did some things wrong even small mistakes (overreading toying) and other things can make your game nearly unplayable and unwinnable. For example evolving the enemies to the next level with every fight and other such things that can be easy mismatched. I guess you got some rules wrong because i don´t believe that you would do sooooo poorly :) I would say let everyone explain everything to you and restart the game ,-)
Quit. Move on. Play a different game. I enjoy this series and I would enjoy this series even more if you could enthusiastically talk about a game and its story. Your frustrations are valid. Bring another game to the table that you can enjoy and we, the viewers, can enjoy. As it stands, the only people that will continue watching this journey are fans of Aeon Trespass. The people that enjoy the storytelling but have no interest in playing this game will stop watching this series. Good luck to you and ENJOY your games!
Sounds like a frustrating game. Poorly designed and/or playtested. I hope your experience is reflected in any final review on the game. Glad I chose not to back because it was a big, long campaign game; high risk.
nothing poor about the design or playtesting of this game. it has a steep learning curve, a LOT of moving parts, and you do have read carefully and patiently. in the case of this adversary it looks like he played it with some fatal mistakes in understanding the fight (i.e. at most he should have lost one titan and bounced out of the battle ~ the “toying” trait and one-loss conditions are there for a reason).
It’s been poorly played here tbh. The fight he talks about went as intended, however it should’ve stopped after the first Titan death. Just another TH-camr playing wrong and and casting blame on the game. Stick to Catan.
@@realarete9544and that defeat condition is buried where in the book? There is no mention of alternate loss conditions on the Toying trait on the actual card
@@davidlewis5312 Hi David, it is under the Victory Conditions in the Cycle 1 campaign book. You refer to the given battle setup for each Battle ( timeline, adversary, etc) in the campaign book for the respective foe. Since one box was checked for the pursuer fight the fight will immediately end after 5 wounds (victory) or 1 dead Titan (defeat). At that point it grows tired essentially and flys off … however if 5 wounds were dealt the players may decide to carry on, and then there’s no going back. It’ll fight to the death ( 10 wounds) or kill the entire cohort of 4 titans.
Hey Tom, someone from our community also posted this on BGG. They regularly make posts about the strategy against various Primordials and they're helpful. Give em a look! The first one is more just a response to your feelings. Feel free to just glance over this one. Although Adi does offer to go into TTS to see if he can help you with tactics. Below are links to strategy guides. I felt much the same as you, I was rolling terribly but even when I had good roles the battles felt impossible. What I didn't realize was how many tactics I overlooked and was simply unaware of. Without realizing it, I felt the fights were impossible and coupled with my bad luck rolls I had no chance. There is def a viable strategy and path to victory. That's also part of what makes the game awesome. You realize "get good" aside from making me see red when I hear someone say that and I hate to admit, actually has merit here. Hang in there man. I'd be willing to hop in to some fights as well and help. Although I needed to go to Adi for help myself, so I'd recommend seeing him for that over me. Handshakes all around for your efforts and playing the game. boardgamegeek.com/thread/3106730/answer-dice-tower-greek-epic-part-4 boardgamegeek.com/thread/3087493/depth-cycle-1-build-guide Hekaton strategy guide boardgamegeek.com/thread/3077920/depth-hekaton-strategy-guide Laby strategy guide boardgamegeek.com/thread/3079056/depth-labyrinthauros-strategy-guide Hermesian Pursuer Strategy guide boardgamegeek.com/thread/3086598/depth-hermesian-purseur-guide
Just to highlight a few things, some mentioned by others:
Remember to read the special "Toying" Victory and Loss conditions for the Pursuer (and the Toying trait, of course, which makes it do perhaps a third of it's non-Toying Danger output). Yes, the fight is difficulty, largely due to the higher To Hit Rating and AT values, but it's actually less punishing than fights against the core Primordials in some ways, as you can only lose 1, then 2, then 3, then finally 4, Titans, across your first several battles.
Many people lose the first encounter or two, but unlike the core Primordials, the Pursuer doesn't actually get stronger throughout the Cycle (technically, because it's true a longer battle to deal more Wounds means encountering higher level AI and BP cards, which can be nasty). It at least doesn't gain any new traits.
There is a similar situation that happens against the Alpha Temenos when first encountered, that really humbles you.
Also, I may have misinterpreted what you said, but the edges of the board don't count as "cliffs" unless the battle setup specifies them as such, such as with the higher leveled Hekaton. Even a Knockback 10 from the Pursuer will still only cause you to slide along the edge of the battle map. Getting back to the battle due to the Knockback distance is the real issue from it, typically. Positioning to be Knockbacked into a Column can be the better option to avoid needing to run back, if you have methods to Stand Up the Titan.
For what it's worth, while I haven't lost to the Pursuer during my campaign yet, nearly every battle has ended with almost all of my Titans just one more Attack or Ambrosia application from death. He's a tough nut to crack. It's technically possible to kill it in Cycle 1 while it's not Toying (an Awakening has almost always been involved), but only a few people have made that claim on the Discord, and most of them later admitted to messing up rules when pressed on it.
Anyway, while I hate to see the reason why, I'm glad to see you've picked up the ATO Scribe App. Note that it does have an option in the settings to save a Backup (remember to do this when and if you advance to Cycle 2, in case you ever want to check your end of Cycle stats for Cycle 1 when advancing the Cycle).
It can also be useful to create "checkpoints" for your campaign, I suppose. I haven't done that personally, but I know some people like to do things like create a "checkpoint" when they reach a major story point, like changing Story Cards, in case they want to reset from there due to a confluence of bad luck, and not wanting to potentially restart the campaign entirely if they would otherwise lose.
keep it going Tom, please, this are one of the best videos you are doing. It is depressing but the game happens at a depressing world setting.
slight spoilers, but mostly rules I missed and found out that may be useful: My book says that after the first titan dies in the pursuer battle you go to the tease loss aftermath so it doesn't just auto wipe your team while you are still weak. Also make sure you are applying the tease debuffs. Also idk if it was you but some TH-camr was complaining about the hekatrap exploration card constantly triggering, but if you read the text carefully you permanently remove it from the exploration deck after resolving it once and you do not evolve the primordials during the ambush battle. Also I have found the whale knives from the advanced tririme weapons tech to be the most substantial power boost, alongside the initial support gear, you can get early on. Placing 2 breaks with arrow barrage and then using the whale knives, hopefully hitting with all 3 dice and opening x allowing up to 3 break tokens to be placed + the kratos table tokens builds a pretty good kratos pool for a heavier hitting weapon, which the same tech provides, to hit and wound a higher level BP card pretty consistently. I've been really enjoying the game, but I have always been an optimizer who wants to find the best combination of gear and skills to become the most potent, and push my resources to the limit to eek out the most advantage. I've found the hekaton and labarintharaus manageable and I'm up to lvl 3 with them, only losing 2 titans to them total, but tememos and the adversary still seem unbeatable, and only not disasters because of there early stopping mechanisms which limit the damage. Also note my obol draws have been a bit lucky, I set them out and roll a dice so it's fair but I've probably drawn you live 3-4 more times than I should've. (Though I also have spent 6+ argo fate on hope logic and missed every single one) I also employ 'save scum' logic which is outside the rules, essentially if some unforseen action or consequence come up in a fight we're if I had taken a slightly different action just before (forgetting to heal, moving to a real bad square, being one break tokens short of a wound while I still have arrow barrage charges etc) I just change it so it's as of I did take that action. Thus every game state is a potentially legal one, but just more optimal than my original choice where I had a bit less information. Also I am full paper gang, but I am sorry for your loss, though it is slightly, just a bit funny.
100% agree on the whale knives. Such a big boost and I'm yet to replace them.
Hey Tom, loving your play through and I hope you continue, I notice some of the comments have pointed out some things that may have gotten wrong, I hope it helps you with some of the issues you had
Keep going! Apparently you were missing some important details for fighting the Pursuer. I want to know your experience next time you face the Pursuer.
I am really appreciating these videos! Keep ‘em coming!
Adversary has very important functions: reducing Argo fate, resetting the triskelions, providing resources, giving a chance to get special gear. Growing you into someone stronger by giving you an incentive to research better gear, coming up with better tactics and giving you fighting experience. You have to fight a lot in this game, play it slowly but fight, don’t skip the fights! When I was about to face it for the 3rd time I choose to stand against him on my own terms, not running from it, and I destroyed it with a gear I got up to that point with an experience I got . From previous battles. At some point you will become a hunter and will treat him as an animal in the slaughter house.
The Adversary has 2 functions: attrition (it makes you lose Gear and Titans), and resetting stats (Triskelions). Later in the game, you’ll actually WANT to encounter it to decrease the Argo Fate. Also don’t forget that for the first and second fights against it, you can call it a defeat as soon as you lose 1 and 2 Titans respectively (check the defeat condition). You probably won’t be able to kill it in Cycle I, but if you keep at it, you’ll eventually be able to fulfill the lesser win condition. I understand your frustration though. Losing this app data must be really deflating.
I really enjoy this series but I understand the frustration, if you don't keep going with ATO I would like to see these kind of video's with other campaign games!
I'm loving this series! I really hope you continue, but I'm sorry you had a frustrating experience. However, if you're not enjoying yourself, no need to be sorry if you don't want to continue.
I'm still interested in where this goes! I'm with you on wanting a challenge but needing to see that there is a chance.
Hi from Australia 🙋🏻♀️ great site. Thanks.
My personal take on the series its that: They are fun! Its cool to see the journey and share the joys and struggles that we ourselves faced before. The app disaster sucks tough.
(My possible tip for the fights is that you should take the accuracy tokens over the breaks for the first part of the showdowns to ensure your titans hit and are able to left more tokens, therefore mittigating the luck to hit. Also, the argo abilities are very much helpful!)
You did play with the Toying trait enabled, right? And cut the fight short as soon as your first titan died?
That battle is unbeatable, but it gives you some good material to craft with. And it's short since it ends after the first titan dies.
I hope the campaign goes back to being fun for you. Otherwise, I would suggest to just skip the Pursuer battles if you are getting negative enjoyment from them.
Good luck with the rest of the campaign. I enjoy this series of videos
I really like this so even if you weren’t going to play this anymore going through a campaign like this with updates is really fun. Doing a different game like tainted grail or even sleeping gods would be fun to watch.
Hey Tom. Any update on if this series is continuing? I dont see any comment from you like you said in the video so fingers crossed you are still playing through :)
I hope you keep playing Tom!
I think you may have missed the "Toying" trait that means the pursuer doesn't hit as hard. Also in the setup for the fight for the win/lose conditions you'll see that you can terminate the fight when the first titan dies (the first time you encounter the pursuer). The win condition also shows that you "only" need 4 wounds (iirc) to win the fight the first time you encounter the pursuer. This scales up further into the campaign though, but you do get quite nice tech from the pursuer, so it's worth it, even if you do lose some titans.
I think its more than the first time. Even when you flee if im not mistaken you dont evilve the pursuer? So that means it stays likr that for quite a while.
I'm so sorry for the loss of progress via app. It would frustrate anyone for sure.
I myself track both in paper and on app. When I start C2 I might try Scribe.
Scribe is way better. Besides having backups, the best part of scribe imo is the gear section of the app. It automatically shows you what tech leads to what. It also shows what gear is available based on the resources you currently have as well as the gear youve already made. Prior to this i found it too painstaking to try and check what a piece of gear does, than check to see what resources i need to make it on another card, than check to see if i have those resources....
Now with the app, what ill do is click the button to craft a piece and notate what i made during this crafting phase. Now as i go on clicking the scribe button to add gear it automatically deducts those resorces and conversely, since im notating what i made i can remove the gear i crafted to add those resources back in and try diddferent combinations of what ill craft that day. Much more manageable this way than writing it down, adding and subtracting by hand what i made or what i could make.
Overall the story is fantastic, this is by far the best game ive ever played. Yes its incredibly deep, there are a LOT of rules to remember. Player aids are key in the beginning. Im 100hrs in and still looking up rules regularly bc i like to be sure im doing it correctly. Despite that, this is one of the best rulebooks ive ever encountered. While there are a lot of rules, rarely am i confused by what they mean.
Games like this have a lot of depth and staying power. Ill never sell this game and will likely leave it in my will to my nephew. I cant eait for ItUs future games, this company has serious staying power. They have a customer for life. I really hope many board game lovers like Tom can get through the initial hump the large set of rules do present. Underneath all of them is a magnificent and crowning achievement that should not be missed. I do understand how he feels losing all his data on their official app, that sucks super hard.. if i was Tom i might take a break too, although id be afraid is tart to forget rules. Might be best to pick it back up again quickly and get back in to it.
That being said, i think content creators cant really give games like this enough time. They have too many games to play and too many rulebooks to learn each week. I know i couldnt handle that, all the rules from the last 5 rulebooks im simultaneously reading would start to bleed together. So i dont blame tom for putting it down, but i hope he recognizes the brilliance of games like this for many people. Probably mostly for people who are experienced and NOT content creators. CC simply have too many games to play.
My two cents...
Oh and PS to Tom. I stated before i am ass at tactical games. I can see strategy eventually but im usually late to that party. I suggest checking bgg or the discord on how to handle fighting primordials. Theres a specific strategy and makes fighting them much easier than without them. Im notoriously unlucky and im managing pretty well. Worth reiterating if you missed it that you can flee many of the early battles if 2 titans die. Youll get more titans anyway. Good luck Tom and hope to hear about you one day covering how deep and wonderful this game is and that youre disappointed it took a while to notice it. Once you do you wint be able to go back. Its why there is so much reverence from peoole who like it and such terrible thiughts from people who dont. Those who dont didnt get to the juice bc they gave up midway through the squeeze.
Happy gaming Tom!
Hey, I had at the beginning similar problems as you mentioned, cause I was trying to also play the game like, try to hit the monster with everything I got and hope for the dice went in my favour haha. But then I started reading a few blogs from a user on BGG about battle tactics, and I must say, it makes a significant difference. From those articles I first got how important OOR is, and how to be able to achieve, and also, another really important things, it that not all your titans need to try and wound the primordial. For instance you could have one titan be the heavy hitter, maybe another one as well, but then you have one titan, that might carry some weapon which hits easier, and also leaves opening tokens behind. So maybe it will not wound, but he will prepare the scene for your hitter to deal the damage. And I imagine that going on to Cycle 2 will make this more important as I can imagine going just for rolling and try to hit and wound as a tactic might go poorly. Keep it up! Really enjoying these series, and hopefully we can see you on a next episode!!
Keep going! You can do it! 👍😁
The game is certainly not for everyone... I went through a part in mid game where I did feel a bit stagnant and under powered in the fights, however, now, near the end of cycle 1 i feel my titans have so many levers to pull and buttons to press, that combat becomes quite tactical as to who does what and when and where from. Still a bit dependent on good or bad dice rolls, but that part of the thrill of rolling dice isn't it? The pursuer is still tough, my titans are also tough but are also beaten up thoroughly by the end of the fight ... win or loose. The combats are much more thinky now than when I started, and it was very much run in and hit, now its who should i activate first, where should they stand, do they activate such in such to help titan B now or keep till later, do i hit as hard as i can now on the easier BP or should try for something with a better result on a harder BP. Such a lot to think about. And I havent mentioned titan fit outs before the battle with how do i want to run the fight and which is the best titan to have such in such item..... I am enjoying it more now than earlier for sure.
Just for context - we are around Day 35 now, have never faced the Pursuer. Part of this 'bad' experience may have simply been that you ran into this enemy too early.
The bad part is him forgetting that there's an alternate win/loss condition that doesn't nuke his entire team...
It's too bad this series ended. The pledge manager is closing soon and I'm struggling with whether I want to late back.
I dunno man, I play with a very good player (he wins tournaments all the time) and we are not finding it as difficult as you describe it. we just started cycle 2, so we had our fair share of fights. in time you learn what each enemy does and can plan and equip accordingly. other than that we always use the following three abilities: healing, opening or break tokens, +1 rage. we always have at least one tank (usually two) who need to keep the priority target and can mitigate damage as much as possible. we never crafted spears or bows, we always used melee weapons since they're the ones with the best stats. playing tons of ATO you improve in the little things, since they make all the difference. the game is not fair, so you must optimize every little thing to succeed, and that comes with practice. keep it up tom, game's great IMO
Hey Tom, i left a bit of a longer answer on BGG to the video, id love if you checked it out
Keep up the good work!
You've missed that the fight ends ;P
That’s super disappointing that that happened. Sounds so frustrating
I have similar feelings even though I won almost every fight. It is hard and sometimes I feel like there is a lot of random and not a lot of fun. Tactical choices while present is quite limited, and what worries me a lot - the technology tree has no branching at all. I can craft almost every item, and I have almost all the technologies. I do not see that those items change my gameplay much.
The story is okay though I would say it is _too much_ story and bookkeeping and too few actual game. I am still playing through 2/3 Cycle 1 but not sure I am going to play Cycle 2.
I disagree vehemently.
I've enjoyed this series a lot, not the least because it does not seem to be a game I'll ever get to play but if the app can't be trusted and combat isn't fun then I for sure would not be upset if you bin it. :D
Pls read the Pursuer battle setup and enemy card properly. It's a valid advice for every new enemy.
As many pointed out, it appears that u made critical mistakes potentially by browsing the battle setup too fast. It's well known that it's a complex game, which translates to potentially new rules for new enemies, which certainly was the case as the Pursuer was supposed to leave after killing 1 titan on the first battle, and you are supposed to win if u do 3 wounds (IIRC). This last part... that you only need to wound less times is a piece of rule that transform the battle from impossible to challenging, and balanced to your progress.
I battle the Pursuer ~5x. I lost 1st, 3rd and 4th battle. I won 2nd and 5th. Even when I lost I got resources out of it that made me able to build interesting gear. :)
Yeah, I lost my first and second battle (1 titan each time and went to the aftermath) and still reaped a decent amount of rewards.
Don’t give up.
I wonder if you played the fight wrong? The first time you fight him the fight ends after one titan dies, he also starts with the Toying trait which makes him significantly easier. But he is hard and you will lose to him by design. But as someone who has "beaten" him multiple times (while he has the toying trait) I can assure you its doable.
We just finished the campaign 1 book... and failed.... We've put 120h +/- on the campaign just to get shafted at the finish line... I know you have to earn your victories... but 4 dads with kids... we simply don't have the time or willpower to redo that all over again... just for a maybe... we've sacrified tabletime for other games for this story... and it let us down. The ups and downs were fun... but sadly we won't see the end of this game since we simply have no time to give it anymore...😢 Love the game hate the lenght. At least KDM is upfront about it's concept.
I like this series and hope you continue, but if you want to bail on AT and do a new series with a new solo campaign game that'd be cool also
Sorry you had such a bad time. enjoyed listening to your game. Not something I would donate my time too with Frosthaven being a current challenge but I do hope the game gets recovered and you start enjoying it more. Maybe there was a key rule you missed and then you just feel DUMB.
Did we give up?
The dangers of using an app in board games
The Die (Repeatedly) Tower.
Folks, even if Tom plays himself down, just remember that he is a reviewer with decades of expirience and I am sure that he is quite thorough in how he approaches the game. So even with such skills the game is still cumbersome, I get the Impression that this is the classic unrefined experience you get from a fresh kickstarter which focused more on the stretch goals than playtest.
This is not an example of Kickstarter bloat and lack of refinement. It's incredible just how well-refined it is. However, it's also a very complex game and it's very easy to miss or forget things, especially when playing solo.
Exactly Will. The rulebook is one of the better written ones ivr come across. There are a LOT of rules, but nearly alm are clear. Tom seems like a great dude, but glancingnover the rulebook wont allow someone to play and aopreciate this game.
I get the impression this game banks on sunk cost fallacy to justify the player putting up with its upfront bullshit
Honestly Tom, if you are struggling with strategy you'll be well served to look up tactics if you're not discovering them on your own. If you can't figure out how to take advantage of when to escalate, when to attack vs pass, who needs to attack before who to add more of the appropriate break/opening tokens in to the pool, Window of Opportunity and how to Evade so you are out of reach. You can't just run up in a random order of who happens to be closest without considering the above. Knockback/Knockdown and how crash will effect movement the following turn to that titan and other titans that get knocked in to. It's not that it's not good, I think you are just missing vital strategies.
Play on
Could this be why ato is “unplayable “?
We're not luddites. We're realists. I mean really, after what just happened to you? And probably a dozen more digital information losses that you can remember, I most certainly can quadruple that. In my office there are certain documents that I am required to keep hard copies of. Because I absolutely have to have them. No "Oopses" allowed. If after putting dozens of hours into the game, you are satisfied with saving it digitally, then you should be just as satisfied to start all over again when the data disappears. If not, don't do that. If you are upset, you should be upset with your choices. Or you could also be upset with our cultures divinization of digital technology, which you seem to have bought into. It ain't perfect and never will be. Print and save. Hard copies rule. Anyway, do a barn job on getting about back to where your were and keep going. I don't want to give up on this soap opera. And print and save.
I think vary Hard games are not your style
KDM is way better in the combat department
Disagree vehemently. Kdm is just a dice chucker. Run up, smack, get hit back. Use srivival if i have it. See random shit thay happens. Hunt my 42nd white lion in a row or gorm to obtain that gear set. Trigger terrible random hunt event like acid rain. Go back to showdown to fight boring ass white lion or gorm. Rince and repeat. Get drstroyed by nemesis.
Escalation deck and inverted combat paradigm the kratos table provides makes battles much kore tactical andninterestinf for ato. Its a landslide win imo, i feel like most who make the claim you just did never really gave ato a shot. Ive played both for well over 100 hrs.
@@adam551982 my statement reflects my personal opinion. I was mentioning the combat system not the entire game (your mixing things up here). For me AOE would be a lot more enjoyable if the combat would be more like in KDM and not like a over complicated KDM mod (again this is my opinion). I prefer the story telling of AOE over the RNG of KDM by a mile. (IMHO the best combat system is in Gloomhaven | Frosthaven)
I guess you did some things wrong even small mistakes (overreading toying) and other things can make your game nearly unplayable and unwinnable. For example evolving the enemies to the next level with every fight and other such things that can be easy mismatched.
I guess you got some rules wrong because i don´t believe that you would do sooooo poorly :)
I would say let everyone explain everything to you and restart the game ,-)
Hmmm, so maybe that one guy was actually right, and this game is a mess? (Not named on purpose)
This game is something to love, and something to hate. Such extreme feelings for me, yet... enough to keep me (us) going.
the problem wasn't with him being right or wrong.
Quit. Move on. Play a different game.
I enjoy this series and I would enjoy this series even more if you could enthusiastically talk about a game and its story. Your frustrations are valid. Bring another game to the table that you can enjoy and we, the viewers, can enjoy. As it stands, the only people that will continue watching this journey are fans of Aeon Trespass. The people that enjoy the storytelling but have no interest in playing this game will stop watching this series.
Good luck to you and ENJOY your games!
Sounds like a frustrating game. Poorly designed and/or playtested. I hope your experience is reflected in any final review on the game. Glad I chose not to back because it was a big, long campaign game; high risk.
nothing poor about the design or playtesting of this game. it has a steep learning curve, a LOT of moving parts, and you do have read carefully and patiently.
in the case of this adversary it looks like he played it with some fatal mistakes in understanding the fight (i.e. at most he should have lost one titan and bounced out of the battle ~ the “toying” trait and one-loss conditions are there for a reason).
Sure, that's why it sits on 9.2 at BGG 😂
It’s been poorly played here tbh. The fight he talks about went as intended, however it should’ve stopped after the first Titan death.
Just another TH-camr playing wrong and and casting blame on the game.
Stick to Catan.
@@realarete9544and that defeat condition is buried where in the book? There is no mention of alternate loss conditions on the Toying trait on the actual card
@@davidlewis5312 Hi David, it is under the Victory Conditions in the Cycle 1 campaign book. You refer to the given battle setup for each Battle ( timeline, adversary, etc) in the campaign book for the respective foe. Since one box was checked for the pursuer fight the fight will immediately end after 5 wounds (victory) or 1 dead Titan (defeat). At that point it grows tired essentially and flys off … however if 5 wounds were dealt the players may decide to carry on, and then there’s no going back. It’ll fight to the death ( 10 wounds) or kill the entire cohort of 4 titans.
Hey Tom, someone from our community also posted this on BGG. They regularly make posts about the strategy against various Primordials and they're helpful. Give em a look! The first one is more just a response to your feelings. Feel free to just glance over this one. Although Adi does offer to go into TTS to see if he can help you with tactics. Below are links to strategy guides. I felt much the same as you, I was rolling terribly but even when I had good roles the battles felt impossible. What I didn't realize was how many tactics I overlooked and was simply unaware of. Without realizing it, I felt the fights were impossible and coupled with my bad luck rolls I had no chance. There is def a viable strategy and path to victory. That's also part of what makes the game awesome. You realize "get good" aside from making me see red when I hear someone say that and I hate to admit, actually has merit here. Hang in there man. I'd be willing to hop in to some fights as well and help. Although I needed to go to Adi for help myself, so I'd recommend seeing him for that over me. Handshakes all around for your efforts and playing the game.
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3106730/answer-dice-tower-greek-epic-part-4
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3087493/depth-cycle-1-build-guide
Hekaton strategy guide
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3077920/depth-hekaton-strategy-guide
Laby strategy guide
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3079056/depth-labyrinthauros-strategy-guide
Hermesian Pursuer Strategy guide
boardgamegeek.com/thread/3086598/depth-hermesian-purseur-guide