Show Notes: [0:18] Jordan introduces this episode's guest Dr. Anthony Daniels. [2:00] Jordan explains how he discovered Dr. Daniels work and started to agree with many of his core observations. [5:00] Anthony Daniels talks about the beginning of the discovery of attitudes in the British "underclass" [10:30] Examining domestic violence issues and mating in the "Underclass" [15:30] The tendency for less monogamous societies to have difficulty with increased levels of aggression and violence with severely impacted traditional family structure. [24:00] Debating reasons lower class are, unintentionally perhaps, leading to the destruction of the family and lives they would like to have. [25:30] Looking at the possibility of a universal income as a negative influence on society, a welfare state. [34:30] The issues of judgement, its fallibility but also its necessity when creating productive societal structures. [37:00] Using the idea of existential equality with patients. Anthony tells many stories from his time consulting in prison [50:30] The toxic cult of sentimentality, the terrible danger of infantilizing people who are expressing emotion. Trying to define genuine empathy. [1:00:00] Is there learned helplessness in advanced western populations? Examining the success of poor immigrants to the success of poor locals in western society. [1:06:30] Looking at serial relationships, are they the problems or a symptom of other things. Jordan outline why he believes that serial relationships only work in an extremely small special set of circumstances that can actually lead to some form of happiness [1:13:30] Attitudes on education, teaching children to read, examining the issue of creating and imposing structure on people as a form of judging what is worthwhile and not. [1:23:30] Jordan summarizes the current argument that Anthony Daniels is making about the British underclass up to this point. How do we pick metrics to decide if issues with lower classes are improving or decreasing? Anthony uses the story of jack the ripper to illustrate an interesting point [1:31:30] What has been the impact of writing on the subject of the poor in Dr. Daniel's life? Are there others writing about similar topics? [1:38:00] The similarities across countries in the poorest of the poor and the problems that pervade their subcultures [1:45:00] What was the emotional impact on Dr. Anthony Daniels on encountering all the pain and suffering in his patients [1:51:00] How did Daniel's conclusion transition into his clinical practice for the better? [1:53:00] Wrapping up the show
The supreme witness of Jesus Christ (King David) is reporting for duty. He was a man whose tongue held no lies, For he was the direct descendant of our father in the heavenly skies. Born to a body of fleshy sin, Though what laid beneath was unlike the rest of his kin. Jesus had the utmost grace, Never being wavered by evils face. He was wise beyond any years, Performing miracles that would bring crowds to tears. A beacon of light on top of a starless mountain, Where words of wisdom poured out of him as if there ran a cosmic fountain. His eyes pierced through you with a single glance, Leaving even the most hardened individuals in quite the trance. The Holy Spirit so ever majestically flowed inside this man, Naturally people caught notice and became a fan. Students began showing up from every mold, When they heard his words their hearts were sold. Wicked men put a price on Jesus's head, He was wanted alive or dead. Despite this he and his disciples continued their teachings, Where on occasion they endured terrible beatings. One of the twelve apostles turned to black, No longer having Jesus's back. Judas Iscariot had done Satan's bidding, And it is in hell where he now is sitting. Jesus died on the cross to pay for our shortcoming, However don't be saddened for if you believe in him you will see him at your homecoming. There he sits at the right hand of God's throne, Being the voice of truth and love that we all have known. Satan's tongue is coated in a layer of deceit, And he tramples over promises with his feet. He's a being who is bound by deceptions, Whose very essence oozes with misconceptions. He struggles to look you in your eyes, For his gaze holds nothing but lies. On occasion he will give you his hand, But don't be fooled by his stand. He seeks to corrupt your heart, You would be wise to avoid him from the start. Seeking quick pleasures and casting aside love, He traverses this land with push and shove. Now Lucifer was once not lost, But pride blinded him at a cost. Disobeying God he waged war, Becoming detestable to the core. Today he is the ruler of Earth, Though for all his power he has no real worth. However most of us have still been sold, Giving into sin and becoming cold. Nearly everyone is a puppet dancing on strings, Marching to delusion for their unjust kings. My people have given into lust, Becoming robots full of rust. However you my child are the exception, So when you meet me don't forget to mention. That you alone have been granted the key, And before your glory they shall all bend a knee.
Thanks for being so dedicated to decency, using fact and logic. It's so good to see. You've definitely helped me out by confirming what I thought already, and supplemented plenty more. Heartfelt thanks. You're welcome to Wales, Britain, any time you like. Have a great day.
This is what Jordan needs for his health. Constructive intellectual discussion one on one, rather than heated adversarial interviews and debates with people who hate him and misrepresented him for no reason.
This was just mutual agreement and congratulation. I like JP but some of the ideas (especially about half way through the discussion) were pretty immature. I don't think he enjoys it, he should just let go of some the ideas that are poisonous and overly simplified. The discussion about literacy though was important, these phonetic methods are nonsense, people should be able to deconstruct words and automatically understand their meaning.
@@chuzzbot You're just used to him trying to explain common sense to people whose brains are addled by leftist ideological constructs. People who have been trained to "think" in ideological categories & simply refuse to look @ reality & draw logically necessary conclusion from what they simply see. These two men have spent their lives in clinical therapy actually treating, either as a a physician or a psychologist, actual people. Human nature in its basics is actually rather simple, it is merely difficult. They have nothing to disagree about b/c the have simply seen the same thing, over & over again.
@@ellie698 he’s forthright about controversial subjects that he truly believes the establishment are wrong about. And he has the data on his side. His provocation is just telling the truth as he sees it in the face of people who can’t bare to hear their cherished ideas challenged. That’s their/your problem. Not his
The point of my comment was that it isn’t a competition. It’s not about who is better. It’s a conversation not a grilling or a debate. Peterson is a master orator and intellect but he suffers from deep emotional pain. So these conversations are just more healthy for him
@@ellie698 his lack of sense of humor?! really, ... this man is one of the most esteemed intellectuals of our times and if some(no)body tries to crucify him is undeserved him/herself.
My goodness, how I appreciate the old school English sensibilities which breathe through Theodore's being. His self deprecating humour, no-nonsense directness and robust sense of humanity is incredibly endearing and admirable. Bring back THIS kind of masculinity. The world is sorely missing it. Thanks chaps for a wonderful discussion on topics which matter 🙏🏻
Maaan, I didn't know him, but found him so funny and roughly kind it's hard to describe, but you did. It's amazing how touching a well aligned human being can be. Thanks for your excellent observation. Be well.
I've never seen such a great comeback. The man is not even 100% yet and has already produced more relevant things than everybody else. He really lives up to what he teaches.
Speaking of comebacks: in a totally different field of human endeavour, I was also very impressed by Tyson Fury's comeback from suicidality, obesity and multiple addictions to the world heavyweight boxing championship.
I love how Theadore has a genuine laugh and doesn't take things too seriously. I really enjoyed the whole podcast. I usually have a hard time staying interested in podcasts but found this discussion very informative & interesting.
These are the two men that I most admire. As a professor in Brazil, I feel represented by them. When a listen to them, I recover my hope for a better society.
The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.
I read Dalrymple’s “Our Culture, What’s Left of It” book when I was 18 and it was one of the best books I’ve ever read. I’m 22 now and a massive fan of Peterson’s work. I never thought I’d see a conversation between the two. Thank you Peterson for making this happen.
Thinking his work at Manhattan Institute conservative think tank had to be alt-Right dogma I decided to defy my never-Trump associates peak inside the demonized book cover. The fact that I'm here demonstrates the fascinating interest.
Is there any sort of scholarship or is he just sharing his intuitions? 30 minutes in and I’m not sure there’s empirical evidence for any of the specific claims he’s making.
@@seanmatthewking If I understand what you're asking, this is a complicated thing to always search for. In this case he does have empirical evidence (as long as it counts to be based on personal experience) but knowledge must not and can not come only through one specific method. Knowledge and wisdom comes algo through the articulation between our own culture and experience and that which is presented by the external reality. Truths emerge from that and are then shared with the public for further discussion and enrichment of their own culture and experience. This is a "chaotic but organized" way to "mine" truths.
I grew up working class, single parent to 2 girls. My eldest is 18 and I'm only getting out of the struggle now. I started a business, went to uni and devoted my life to making sure my kids grew up polite and kind. My 18 year old is predicted an A in psychology and criminology a levels and my 16 year old is a straight a student. They don't want to struggle like I did. Its been a hard 18 years but I can now sit back and watch my kids thrive in the world. I know I'm a rarity, I have single mum friends whos kids won't get up to go to school.
The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.
I know right? This man casually dropped his hobby of traveling to wore-torn countries for fun and navigating them by public transit, before cell phones! Who does that?!
Having clawed my way out of the underclass, and aspiring not to fall back into the pit described here; I feel compelled to say, thank you for putting these cultural contradictions into words and challenging us all to think through the secondary and tertiary order of the effects of our’s and our government’s actions and policies. Bravo! Bravo!!
@@ItsameAlex Are you saying low IQ equals anti-social behavior? Because if that’s the case, then why do many serial killers have higher then average IQ and exhibit anti-social behavior?!
@@ItsameAlex Surely there is a gradient of antisocial behavior? What I mean is, wouldn't there be typical low IQ antisocial behavior and typical high IQ antisocial behavior? Petty crime would be in the low IQ section, and maybe some form of high functioning psychopathy at the high end of the IQ gradient.
Jordan’s been putting together a catalogue of conversations with legends! Keep them coming Doc, they are profoundly life-affirming and much appreciated 😁
@@dhaltonmiller1215 I actually think he is better now. Not as high pitched and fast paced...but rather deliberately deliberate and more heart than head. Listen to what he said...he listened to the book at 2.5 times its normal speed. Most people don't process information that fast. His old lectures were simulating but I think these are more imprinting.
@@jcclarkeru True, but a lot of the reason I watch these is to see how Jordan tries to integrate what is being said into his worldview or at least an understandable worldview that we can appreciate, even if he talks a little too much sometimes.
I was incarcerated at age 13 and 14 and 15 after abuse and head trauma. Decades later, while getting my MA in special education, it became obvious that many of the kids I was locked up with were exceptionally intelligent and the majority, if not every single one, had many traumatic head injuries/disability/abuse. These are details that need more attention/consideration as we move forward in creating better systems. Thank you both for this conversation. Thank you Jordan, for your consistent exploration and discourse about our human condition. I consider you a 'system of helping' in and of yourself.
Yup, I think my stints with this lifestyle was due to head trauma. I used to be a super polite kid, tidy, did well in school, fairly popular. Then I was assaulted by a nazi, he knocked me out literally 5-6 times one after another as soon as I woke up. Looking back, the change in my behaviour was night and day. I think I kind of healed up a bit now but not without having a bunch of bad years in my teens and early 20's. I still struggle with ADHD-like symptoms but I've learned to cope better.
Early in internet days I started searching out all kinds of topics. Child abuse and its prevention has always been a strong interest. I came across a very interesting article regarding this subject, the many criminals who were in prison and had abuse, or mental problems and head injuries. It was a very detailed, interesting article. I hadn't heard that take before. Hope it's still on the net somewhere. Written by an investigative journalist I think. Haven't listened to this discussion yet, but started reading posts, and these here reminded me of that. Sometimes, I forget about that physical injury aspect to some of these problems. Thanks for sharing!
This is a great Trump card book, too, because whenever someone accuses you of racism when describing the issues of welfare state mentality, you can cite this book. Since the people in the book are white
@Steven Thompson Because if the assumption is that you are racist for criticizing the welfare state, citing a book that shows problems with the welfare state when it only involves white people, shows that your criticism wasn't necessary based in racism. It doesn't disprove racism though, it just means it can't be used as proof that you are ( granted, criticizing the welfare state shouldn't be proof of that to anyone honestly looking at it anyway. But it makes it somewhat harder for the dishonest ones to make the claim) I don't think it's that strong a point though. It would be better to stand on principle (innocent until proven guilty)
I first learned about Theo Dalrymple from a Thomas Sowell column. I’ve highlighted so many keen observations in his books that they practically glow in the dark 😅. Thank you for having him on your podcast. This is a real treat.
@UCTH_1kSdhSmZe9Yc5MTJvWw I would recommend Life at the Bottom because I still remember this one quote from the essay called “We don’t want no education”. He said something like you need to tolerate a degree of boredom in order to develop worthwhile skills and education can’t always be fun and entertaining.
Albeit with a significant quantity of wine, it appeared. I'm not judging. With all he's witnessed it might be necessary. Apologies if I'm wrong about that bottle's contents.
All doctors, police officers and soldiers are not miserable people. I couldn´t hold one of those professions because I would probably be miserable. But for some people it´s a calling and they can deal with it.
@@grizzlygrizzleha! I also noted down that banger of a line! If I'm not mistaken, it kind of looked like he came up with it on the spot. As if, right before he was pushed into wrapping up the general thought, he felt he had to wrap it in a presentable, generous ribbon and bow, so he quickly consulted his arsenal of rhetorical constructions for the ideally fitting container, and off the cuff, with expert practice, formulated those powerful words. The courtiers of the Renaissance were versed in that lost art of a similar, potent mixture of heavy-hitting, intellectual rumination, with an astounding precision of language. They also injected wit and charm, ofc. But this fellow sure knows how to communicate. That's that old school British swag. Not exactly "banter," which is hilarious nonetheless. This, this is more like verbal jazz. Jazz of the mind. Playing jazz with thoughts. Just wish Jordan let the charming fellow solo some more. Well, hopefully next time.
Im Brazilian, from the north and this is our reality, the public politices are taken from the sentimentalism, in the lower classes the education is terrible, now Im studying psycology in the university and the marxist doutrine is simply the undouthbout thruth, is very Sad. Thank u Jordan and Theodore for the generosity.
@@Kouros-y2t She probably means both. The upper echelons of media institutions are mired in woke stuff. The universities have been cesspools of Marxism in the humanities for a long time.
@@michaellamont2605 Ok , so empty slogans really are your thing... 🤔 Fine , at least learn the basics. 1st off Left wing and socialism are not the same thing. "right” and “left” are vague categorisations of political ideology. What exactly each is will vary from country to country and have changed over time, but these days tend to refer to two types of ideological scale: economic and social.
Having grown up in a low income area in Northern Europe, I've never heard anyone so accurately and succinctly describe the subculture I grew up in. From the masses of women actively seeking out partners that any thinking person could guess would physically abuse them to the overactive jealousy ending in anything from assault to kidnapping and murder (the latter happened to one of my friends when we were 15, thankfully it was "only" attempted murder, torture and kidnapping). The worst thing however is these areas are usually very insular and stepping outside can be like a culture shock, a culture shock produced by moving 5kms in any direction. It also makes it entirely impossible for people who do not grow up in these subcultures to actually understand your reaction patterns, and the pathology that comes with growing up in a culture of violence, especially as a man. These people will view you with suspicion and some will ostracise you for simply acting in a way that they grew up with viewing as wrong, but I grew up with not only being right, but a necessity for survival.
The problem is that it’s a subculture of high levels of psychological trauma, affecting children, women and men, in an endless cycle. I’d imagine that’s why it’s futile trying to police or incarcerate away the problems. A traumatised brain only really does survival. Sounds like you got out though?
There was a case recently of a Scottish family. At the wake of a funeral an uncle of the deceased was stabbed to death. There was an apparent accusation against the father of the deceased in casket. The young man was severely restricted due to autism. The father and autistic son went for a walk along a dangerous coast line and the son apparently fell onto the rocks and sadly died.
Exactly! I had a similar experience but pushed myself to leave and left home at 16 and moved away. Hardest thing I’ve ever done but thank god my gran supported me so I could go to college! Moving away was so difficult, you almost have to re-socialise yourself as you are not used to the expectations. Going to a college in England was such a challenge I had never done a piece of homework or even showed up to most of my classes! Took a long time to unlearn the habits of growing up surrounded by dangerous abusive adults!
Agree, and kudos to Peterson for letting the man talk! JPB is so used to going on lengthy explanations of what exactly it was he was figuring and thinking and experiencing, and he certainly does have a lot of important things to say, but I am very happy to see that he now also has figured out the role of hosting a podcast that isn't about him.
@@xiphophilos I don't disagree--but I did sense that he bit his tongue sometimes. Wouldn't one real test of whether he has figured out that role be if he has Daniels back on? If it's a one and done, that might suggest that Peterson was less than impressed -- unless Daniels, who seems retiring, really has said everything he has to say about these massive subjects in an hour and 55. Some people do prefer to write than to speak, I realize.
Jordan grated on me a little this episode, his active listening was too rapidly filtered through the lens of his unfolding theories and he interrupted at times when I was expecting to hear the fruit of Dr Daniels reflections on his experience. Listen to yourself on this track, Jordan and if you agree could you please invite him to talk with you again.
@@Pacdoc-Oz Love Dr. Peterson; I do the same many times. I figure that he's presenting something, and hoping the other will add to a particular train of thought, to develop his world view further. He's basically new to being the interviewer instead of the interviewed, and he's used to both giving lectures, or conversing with various people. This set up would be hard for me to not want to share what I also know. As viewers, we all see the same thing, I've heard him call himself out on hoping to allow the other to speak more. heehee
OMG....listening to these two brilliant humans makes me feel that I should not lose hope....even if our civilisation is being corrupted in these dark times.......thanks Jordan and Dr Daniels
I was one of the 13k people that bought his Life at the Bottom in the Netherlands and the problems he describes with a lot of the failed social initiatives are very similar to the ones in the Netherlands. Real eye opener for me.
The modern academic thinks they are advocating for compassion when the reality is that they are advocating for cruelty. It’s not compassionate to let someone ruin their lives by having zero discipline.
@@smelltheglove2038 That is so very true! That's why I like Peterson. He always says you have to do the work, no matter what your hardships. Get yourself help, get unstuck, make better choices, take accountability for your life, make a life plan of your own, and see who you can help as part of your recovery from trauma, grief, depression, anxiety, etc.
I worked briefly for Dr Daniels in Birmingham many years ago - he was always interested, realistically kind and a rewarding senior colleague to learn from. Very funny and incidentally always honest.
If you're interested in psychology and especially criminality you may be interested in some of the events that have befallen me in regards to serial killer(s) youtube sunday night / Ivan Milat
My mother was at medical school with him in the late 60s/early 70s, and also went on the Comex trip to India in 1969, which is how I know about him, and I've been reading his books for about 20 years now. He's one of the best essayists around. It annoys me how he doesn't get any time on mainstream media in the UK because he's wrongly denounced as being an extreme right-winger.
@@nelliedean7088 yes thats right - he was a working as a Psychiatrist at All Saints hospital which is close to Winson Green and he covered the Poisons Unit at City hospital where the people who had taken overdoses often had very sad stories to tell
Theodore Dalrymple is an amazing writer ("Sweet waist of America" being my favourite book ever), and I am so grateful to Jordan to bring on such extraordinary people!
You all are killing me with the reading lists. The stacks of books at my bed sid is getting ridiculous. Guess I do need a Kindle but like the feel of a real book and easier on the eyes.
One cannot listen to a Jordan Peterson interview without learning things! Insightful questions that makes for an interesting experience. Jordan Peterson rocks! We are all blessed by his mind and heart.
“When you write about an experience, even an unpleasant experience, it distances you from that experience. So you’re not only having the experience, you’re observing having that experience.”
What excellent advice! ...and so true. It is a good way to get perspective on matters and keep an accurate record so your mind doesn't distort the situation.
I love the story about pre-literate behaviors of children. I was one of those children who was blessed with a stack of children's books as tall as I was by the age of four. My mother tells a story about being in a waiting room, perhaps the doctor or dentist's office. She had bought along a book to keep me entertained while waiting. As I sat "reading" aloud, one of the other patients commented on how smart I was to be reading at such a young age. Mom says that she looked down and saw that the book was upside down!
That's how my kids were raised. My first was a book lover so there was a little basket of books in the bathroom, a basket of books in the car, there were books everywhere! I was raised with lots of books, too. My last name in Hungarian means book lover.
Same here. I grew up in a house that had a magnificent wall of bookcases that went the length of the living room, illuminated by floor to ceiling windows...approximately 2,500 volumes just in the living room, with another 1,500 in the garage, 1,000 or so in my brother's room, maybe 500 in my sister's, 250 in my mom and dad's...and a single, mean, 15" TV without cable until I was 16. We used to sit around and read our own books on weekend nights rather than watch movies, and I got books every single birthday and Christmas (in fact, the last Christmas I got any presents from my parents, I got clothes and books. Ditto my last birthday on which I got any gifts.) More than once, around age 2.5 to 3, I sat and wanted to read so badly that I would think I suddenly could because I had (according to my mom) an eidetic memory, though like most people born with such mine faded by the time I was 4 or 5. I'd recall the words that my mom read when I saw those particular pages and I'd recite the words, insisting I had suddenly, magically learned to read. Each time my mom or dad had to gently disabuse me of the notion...but once I could read, that's pretty much what I did day or night, in school or out. I spent most of elementary school far enough ahead of the curriculum (thanks to being educated at home by my dad) that I was allowed to go to the library and read whatever I wanted as long as I wrote something in response. I've read some books so many times that the worlds therein are in some way more real to me than, say, Nigeria or Bangladesh, places I've never been and will never go.
@@MrBrachiatingApeFantastic! My daughter had it bad. To keep her healthy I had to kick her out, "Put down that book & go play outside!" And at night I had to take her light bulb with me or she'd stay up reading.
@@kathleenkalman4796 I used to open my door a crack and lie with just my legs in bed, elbows propped on the floor, reading until I got caught. :) I had a very low bunk bed, so I wasn't dislocating my spine or anything.) In grade school (when I was actually in class and not the library) I'd put my head down on my desk, open my book in my lap, and read bent like a pretzel for, well, all day. Thankfully, I could listen with one ear and raised my hand to answer questions enough that my teachers were...tolerant. I'm sure it looked odd, though, like a sleeping or terminally depressed kid's hand suddenly springing to life of its own accord.
"Lots of people have become stars in their own soap opera". Yep! I grew up in a lower middle class/working class/poor area. I've known so many people that fit that description perfectly. Their entire lives are about creating drama for themselves and everyone around them.
Do not get caught up in their drama. It'll suck you in and you'll be dealing with pure nonsense. I can be very tough when it's people you are related to or nominally like.
The analogy is complete when you add the costume of fashion and the soundtrack of anthem based or violence ridden ‘music’. Thankfully ,for most people, life runs through a great many episodes and series and with luck you get to change the narrative.
I object to this viewpoint, actually. I think it's just as true for a lot of upper class people. Lower class people don't have a monopoly on delusion. Colonialism, for example, gave rise over time to a very many wealthy, well-off people who believe they had the burden of civilizing the world - "The White Man's Burden." Instead of being in a soap opera, they saw themselves as saviors, heroes for the poor and stupid people of the world, whether they were poor and stupid or not. I think this is cherry picking from an ivory tower.
@@LemmingAttack I agree that there is an air of superiority from Mr Dalrymple throughout this interview. I also agree that the wealthy have their own fantasies- everyone does. The difference in my experience is that the 'wealthy' have the ability to mobilise toward their goals/ambitions/fantasies and live them out to a much greater degree (as you point out). The lower classes do not have that ability. Increasingly deprived of meaningful work, and living in a culture which promotes material consumption as the primary measure of personal value, the 'lower classes' are forced to focus on the attainment of short term gratification (sex, entertainment, food, drugs, status/attention) as the method of experiencing personal meaning and value. Meanwhile the long term picture presents the somewhat painful reality that nothing is going to change very much at all in their lifetime- there's nothing to look forward to. I think this tends to reduce the focus on long term consequences/outcomes of short term actions, while interpersonal drama creates the feeling that something meaningful is happening, even if that 'something' is actually traumatic. Hence the "soap opera".
I work in an A&E (Emergency room for the Americans) in the south of England and this guy's descriptions of his time in the prison fits my work day perfectly. What an interesting interview
Then you wallow into self loathing because you're the reason for your unhappiness, even though you know better... and then you have to remember t treat yourself as someone you love, as the 12 rules go
I think Peterson has also learned a few things for himself if he dares to admit it.... he did cut him off too many times for my own taste, but otherwise, an incredible interaction 👌thank you Dr Peterson to invite such a...I can’t think of how to qualify this person, he is so incredible in so many ways....
Muriel Brown, I think these are the same qualities that make his sometimes controversial comments believable as compassionate and objective. I find his writing excellent.
I have read several of Theodore's books, he is superb and should be more widely read in the UK and beyond. This is another outstanding interview, a great meeting of minds. I cannot get enough of Jordan Peterson's interviews on here. Having one's mind stimulated like this is really uplifting. Thanks for these excellent interviews.
Theodore’s use of the word fuck to make the prisoner change his mind about using the word himself was awesome! The story was amazing and I will likely use the technique on one of my children eventually lol
I read "Spoiled rotten: The toxic cult of sentimentality" several years ago. It was my introduction to something I'd intuited for a long time, and my heart sang.
The book "spoilt rotten:the cult of santimentality" explained to me as a foreigner the state of the British society today- for a long time my mind could not compute how this society once regarded as an example of reserved, sober minded and responsible people, has slid to its current state.
@@CONEHEADDK Last time I saw a report on homelessness in CA I thought "What if they started at one end of skid row and worked on each person individually to help them get off drugs and into housing". Instead of these sweeping reforms that do nothing.
I grew up in an area like this in London in the 80's and 90's. I thought this was "normal" until I began to encounter other people who hadn't experienced this chaos. There was a constant tension in the environment that I was only able to identify as I got older and you had to decide whether you wanted to be 'Predator or prey'. Even to glance at somebody was considered a threat and was always met with a "What you faaackin' looking at?! You faaackin' looking at me?!" as if looking at somebody implied a threat of some kind. There was a complete lack of trust with people and cynical suspicion was the default state. I eventually moved out and had to consciously change (fight or flight) habits which felt strange but as I slowly learnt to let my guard down, it became such a relief. Great convo Dr. Peterson. Probably one of my favourites.
The problem is what I would call the democratisation of absolute freedom. (This is going to sound very snobbish to some people). It used to be that the more middle-class or upper-class you were, the more freedom you had to do whatever you wanted. Many people at the bottom of society lived very constrained lives until the 1960s and didn't have the same sort of freedom - it's true they had the same level of freedom as everyone else theoretically speaking, but practically they didn't, because of the huge social constraints of working-class culture. Suddenly, since the 1960s, people at the bottom of society have been given the same freedom as everyone else, and the horrible truth is that many of them haven't coped well with that freedom. They've used it to do a lot of self-destructive things, instead of using it to improve their lives.The reason is that it always takes time for people to get used to a particular way of living, and if you just suddenly change things, like what happened in the 1960s, many people won't be able to cope with it. Obviously, what I've just written can be portrayed as "snobbish" and looking down on poor people. And of course there have always been wealthy people who've behaved in irresponsible ways as well, to put it mildly. The same thing has happened in East Germany since it became part of Germany in 1990. Many people there, especially the older ones, haven't been able to cope living in a free society, and they vote for the ex-Communists because they hanker after the lifestyle they grew up under in which other people - ie. the Communist government - told them what to do most of the time.
Dr Daniels is such a cheerful chap, interested in telling his stories and laughing, but Professor Peterson keeps getting really into the psychology of it. I love Prof Peterson, but I kind of wanted to just listen to Dr Daniels go on, he's so full of interesting experience!
“They turn themselves into stars of their own soap operas.. otherwise life is too plain and boring” How true is this observation of many. Great guest again. Thanks Dr Peterson.
Always trying to live up to their own appalling standards, which, they believe, constitute their true identity. Therefore, willing to change or improve anything on the path to a better integration would appear as betraying themselves. What a sad trap to fall into...
Indeed! That had such resonance with me, because I've listened to many people, in recent years and their narrative feels precisely like they're imitating Coronation Street/EastEnders/Emmerdale/ (insert your country's Soap Opera"); a life led in verbal clichés!
@@dhaltonmiller1215 and asking if profanity is allowed on a program if it wasn't previously established is polite and indicitive of sophistication not a censorious tyranny
I don't understand. Are you speaking to the PC nonsense with all the censorship of what you are 'allowed' to say, or is the profanity bothering you? I get really tired of this 'oh I'm offended, so you can't say that' absurdity. When did being offended become a nationally important level event? Get a grip people, being offended is NOT going to kill you. We are turning into a nation of entitled pansies that are afraid to have discourse on subjects that bother them, and employers that are frightened to death to have someone offended within their 'jurisdiction'. The inmates are running the asylum, just like with the social worker he spoke of, just doin' her job and collecting a paycheck, gives not one rat's *** whether she ever helps anyone, or not. There is a BIG difference between judging a person as to their worth, and differentiating actions that harm or hurt them. And there is also a big difference between assisting someone with a disease that requires help, and enabling the crap out of self destructive behavior, or worse, rewarding it. The latter is just plain stupid. It's kind of like the example of 'whole word' method of teaching reading he spoke about. They learned that monkey was the little primate, because the y had a tail like one. People are idiots, and the one's in charge are usually the bottom of the barrel, in that respect. Did I offend anyone? If so, tough crap.
@@MrJdsenior I became emotional hearing the reason for the principal of freedom of speech being affirmed because freedom of speech has fallen into disrepute somehow. If I desire to understand you as well as possible I ask you to speak freely to me.
@@senorjp21 You are absolutely free to speak your mind and I will fight to the bitter end to defend that right. Free and open discourse is absolutely vital to a healthy and thriving society. You may not like what is being discussed, you may not agree with it, but no one has the right to silence it. No one.
Jordan, Jocko, Rogan, Schultz... Isn't it amazing that the most praised videos recently are those about amazing conversations with genuinely hard-working, incredibly interesting people?? There is hope people !!! :D
These people do not belong in the same category. These are all very different people, and most praised is subjective. Not that I dislike them, but there are things I dislike about all of them after about a decade listening to each of them… I mean besides Shultz who’s fairly new comparatively. Not sure how Shultz is in there, he ends up saying dumb shit also a lot. I guess he stands for some things but his ego is ridiculous and that kind of arrogance turns me off. Yeah anyway whatever I’m not even sure of what the point of this is. Never mind, haha. I need to go do things.
@@Stringz I know they don't have the same paths, not everyone is a psychologist or a veteran, or a comedian or commentator, but they are all bringing to the internet some of the most genuine, best quality conversations you don't have anywhere else. And yh Shultz is new, but he's blowing up like no other comedian right now and he doesn't just perform for the show, there is more to his comedy and business than "just another one".
@@Stringz I find it very refreshing for you, or anyone, to freely admit “there are things I don’t like” about each. The is very congruent with my perspective of many people. It is absolutely possible to learn from anyone, IF you’re open to the potential value of everyone you come into contact. Bottom line, I don’t believe I have ever found I agreed with everything espoused by some very learned professionals. In my mind, no one is perfect. I truly enjoy the dialogue of JP and his guests. A rare thing in today’s world!
After this lecture in Brazil, I got my Dalrymple's book autographed and took a photo holding Mr. Daniel's shoulder, thinking about how weird must an English man feel with such a touchy behavior. Actually, I just didn't know what to do. Thought it was a good moment to share this story :) A great pleasure to listen to this podcast and Dalrymple's books are always really worth reading. Thank you both so much for the wonderful work you put out to me and our society.
Dr. Daniels' anecdote about developing an emotional distancing from the unpleasant experience by planning how he was going to write about it - echoes something similar that Victor Frankl writes about in his "Man's Search for Meaning". He said that whilst he was in the Nazi concentration camps, one of the things that kept him from becoming despondent and giving up hope was the thought of getting out and writing about his experiences. It gave him real strength to forbear the atrocities that he underwent and had to witness around him.
This man is excellent. A really interesting guest....a fascinating discussion. This is a man that I could have a drink with and ask him about his life and beliefs. And Dr Peterson did a a great job of interviewing him. This was a very worthwhile and illuminating interview
If you understand the structure of the UK welfare state, you understand that that is a literal statement on means-testing. It is easier for a chronic alcoholic to get funding for a drivers' test than someone merely looking to improve their employability.
@@FeedMeMister yes! An accident destroyed my spine but I cannot obtain benefits in America despite having contributed to the system for decades. If I wind up in jail or on drugs or pregnant -- I would have a home, food and transportation. Because most people don't understand the system they assume either the church or government have it covered so they figure it's not their problem (unless one of us is sleeping on their property or they have to step over one of us on their way to work or to shop). It's silly.
I’m so grateful for this video, it helped to articulate some concepts that I knew were correct and to pinpoint the sources of my many error, including errors in judgment. It is a wealth of immense life changing information here and in many dimensions. I can study this video my entire life, probably. I will go over and over through this video to dig deeply into each of the points I was able to see from this conversation. I raised my daughter and son mainly by myself thanks to public assistance but to proof one of the point mentioned, not working allowed me to be at home actually raising my children to be good citizens of this planet and to equipped to take as many opportunity possible. They are now grown adults and they achieved to have lives that are in many dimensions at a higher level socially, economically, and quality of family life.
JG. I hope you find this; you too would not take me to your comment. When I was raising my kids I worked part-time as a nurse. This is my second go-round raising kids.... This time with no job and no car. Good luck to you 💜🙏
I’ve written my way through 913 days of not drinking alcohol, and it is totally transformative. I say that with my own experience as the proof, and I found that when my own experience became my own legitimate proof that it provided a fuel for life I hadn’t previously had. I’m very grateful, thank you for a wonderful conversation.
@@dixieflynn5368 Wow that is so very kind. It is all so personal to me, however I’m trying to find a way to articulate what I’ve learned through the 12 steps. I’m figuring that out daily. Thank you, be well.
I had the pleasure to shake Mr Dalrymple's hand and have a short chat with him at the end of one of his book presentations (I believe it was "Our Culture. What's Left of It") at a Studium Generale of my university in the Netherlands. It should have been 2011 or so. What an admirable man he was and still is."Life at the Bottom" is a seminal work and should be read by anyone employed in the mental health industry (or "what's left of that").
I love Dalrymples thinking, PJW cites him often in his political satire, hard hitting truthful philosophy, he's fascinating as are you. To see you both together is a real treat 🥰 Thank you JBP and TD bless you both x
Or rather somebody educated that actually knows what he's talking about. Those who lived this life and have an average or above IQ it makes perfect sense and fall under the no 💩 category.
This was an incredibly enlightening and enjoyable episode. Thank you the hard work you have been putting in lately, and spoiling us with these conversations. I still can’t believe I live in a time where I can tune into some of the most brilliant minds at the click of a button.
Never heard of your guest, that's one of the reasons I listen to you podcast, it educates me . I might say am educated in the normal sense but not in the type of education that is indispensable in real life. Thank you.
I love his dry sense of humour, "They wanted to cut costs and get rid of this creative writer, he asked me to write in his favour which I did and it sealed his fate, of course" lol
I always learn and grow as a clinical psychologist and also simply as a human being by listening to Mr. Peterson's podcasts . I'm greatufl for these two gentlemen.
I read the book by Theodore. I grew up in a neighborhood of people that lived at the ‘Bottom’. Everything written in that book is 100% accurate about Britain’s under class.
Beautiful and high quality interview. My wife is in graduate school to be a therapist. She keeps talking about how they are taught that they should have a social justice role in society. I don’t know if I can convince her to find the time right now(she also works full time) to watch this. I’d like her to see this side of it. She just has to watch it at some point.
Good luck with that. My friend is a therapist and refuses to listen to Kermit the 🐸 because he's "alt-right" ... the closed mind of the liberally educated "open-minded". I just want to beat some sense into her with a 🦞 lobster. An idea 💡gets in a person's head and won't budge.
I'm saddened to hear the direction that your wife's school has taken. I hope she can find the time to listen to a different perspective. Therapy is about the individual. A "social" approach to a single person's unique combination of traits and experiences completely misses the point. How could that possibly be effective?
I've believed for a good while that Dalrymple is the finest writer of the English language alive today. Deeply learned, brimming with practical experience, common-sensical, a bit of Johnson, a dash of Orwell, a sprinkling of Shakespeare here and there - the good doctor is a pure joy to read, which is amazing given the subjects he often covers. "Life at the Bottom" is a masterpiece. In any other time Dalrymple would be a legend.
The distinction between "empathy" and "counter-productive sentimentality" is one of simple volition. While empathy is a passive attribute, counter-productive sentimentality is an active process of justifying bad policy while attempting to use "virtue" as a predicate.
Thanks indeed for the truthful feeling So many in need of emotional healing Truth is the deed of spiritual meaning Noble knights in aid of those needing
I've been reading his essays at City Journal for 15 years. A very insightful human being, with a wealth of experience to share. Much that we can learn from, if we choose.
Fantastic listening to these two men converse on such important topics.Why does our government not listen to their findings and make society better for us all?
You don't usually face them, so why. Why worry about the other, including Chinese in China and Russian in Russia and The lower classes. How about taking care of yourself. We only have a very little left as a species. So wake up!
So someone below states that Thomas Sowell giving resources doesn't help. I didn't realize Thomas Sowell was a plagiarist. Obviously he stole this concept: “If you give a man a fish, he will be hungry tomorrow. If you teach a man to fish, he will be richer forever.”
Thanks for having Theodore Dalrymple on! I think he's a British national treasure and more people should know about him. He's one of those rare individuals - Along with Jordan Peterson - that has intellect plus wisdom. Shootout to Theodore for being on a nobody's show (Episode 19) :D He's a class act.
So much content teaches people how to stay where they are. The message of "you are perfect and don't need to change for any reason" is poison. Keep up the great work! Your mission to educate the largest number of people is succeeding. Your move out of university, that sacrifice, is appreciated. Thank you Mr. Peterson.
As the now senior Professor at the hospital where Anthony Daniels worked and on which his experience is based, and that I was the junior doctor at the time Tony was our Psychiatrist, I can say that everything Dr Daniels describes is totally true and sadly is little changed in 2021
THANK YOU for this discussion with one of my favorite Spectator writers! I am so grateful for 2 episodes a week. Intelligent conversation exploring ideas, problems and possible solutions is a great benefit-especially now. This week with Stephen Fry and Anthony Daniels/Theodore Dalrymple has been a real treat.
Two of the most relevant intellectuals of our time in a podcast; I've been reading the works of these two men for the last couple of years, and watching Dr. Peterson's videos in TH-cam so, to me, this is the best interview ever. I tip my hat to Peterson: With all the health problems he and his family endured recently, with the political Left trying to destroy him, and just fresh out of recovery the man is producing some of his best work ever.
The quality in these last few episodes is stunningly high. Mostly due to Jordan being back on his game. Its great to see him feeling much better than before and able to act emotively both in speech and action. Also the beard looks great.
I’ve long been a fan of Theodore D. 20 years ago or so I used to read him in the New statesman. Even then he was never seen on British mainstream media and I always concluded that his views were, even then, regarded as controversial and ultra right wing. Thank you Jordan for drawing out the straight forward humanity of the man. At the heart of his thesis is the wasted opportunity for genuine progress among the so called underclass and the cowardly resort by the educated sociology profession to eradicate the notion of self help and self respect inherent in us all.. You showed us the real Theodore Dalrymple.
Dr. Peterson, I like so many other people have tremendous appreciation for all you do. I suffer from chronic pain and complex ptsd. Knowing you have been through difficult times was worrying. Because of your openness, and your daughter's updates, I've tried to keep you and your family in my prayers. I'm so thankful that you published your new book (working through that) and that you continue to engage with the world at large. You give much of yourself. Not an easy thing to do publicly I'm sure. And, the majority of people appreciate your contributions. I'm convinced that your sacrifices will benefit countless lives (Present and future). Anyway, I just wanted to mention that even in these times, marriage has an important function and place. My wife and I are 41 years old. In September, we'll be celebrating 21 years of marriage. So, just to buttress your point brought up during your conversation with your guest, I wanted to share publicly that successful marriages are still very much a possibility and enormously beneficial.
Thank you Dr. Peterson, for your fighting the growing darkness ! I believe your greatest effect will be on the survivors of the coming collapse of the world as we know it! Your ability to articulate true principles will be needed to rebuild a better world . Hopefully there will be plenty of you books and podcasts so parents can educate their children and raise up generations who know what is right and what is wrong and where the source of enlightenment is! The wicked will destroy the wicked! Wickedness is not happiness and never has been! The good earth will assist in the destruction
Never heard of this writer. I will put one of his books on my list to start with for sure. Thank you again for a wonderful conversation. You never disappoint me mister Peterson.💜🙏👍💜
Thank you for this excellent conversation. I read Life at the bottom years ago, It is one of the few books that actually changed the way I look at the world. I love the combination of Daniels’ sharp observations, deep caring, and humour.
As a waiter some of my coworkers would use the F word extremely frequently. When I inquired as to why, they would typically respond that they could not help it. So I would ask them what the guests at their tables thought of it. This was eye opening for them as they of course did not speak that way in those circumstances, and so realized that they could indeed help it.
This was absolutely fascinating to me, and I'm glad you two had this discussion. It's a relief to see that there are other people who think the same way I do, instead of the false reality (which no one actually believes) that the media presents us with.
@@lisaharris452 Mainstream media presents a false reality through propaganda. That's what I'm referring to. They sell a narrative. Everybody sells a narrative, but I think this one is much more aligned with reality than the one the media (meaning television largely) sells us.
Show Notes:
[0:18] Jordan introduces this episode's guest Dr. Anthony Daniels.
[2:00] Jordan explains how he discovered Dr. Daniels work and started to agree with many of his core observations.
[5:00] Anthony Daniels talks about the beginning of the discovery of attitudes in the British "underclass"
[10:30] Examining domestic violence issues and mating in the "Underclass"
[15:30] The tendency for less monogamous societies to have difficulty with increased levels of aggression and violence with severely impacted traditional family structure.
[24:00] Debating reasons lower class are, unintentionally perhaps, leading to the destruction of the family and lives they would like to have.
[25:30] Looking at the possibility of a universal income as a negative influence on society, a welfare state.
[34:30] The issues of judgement, its fallibility but also its necessity when creating productive societal structures.
[37:00] Using the idea of existential equality with patients. Anthony tells many stories from his time consulting in prison
[50:30] The toxic cult of sentimentality, the terrible danger of infantilizing people who are expressing emotion. Trying to define genuine empathy.
[1:00:00] Is there learned helplessness in advanced western populations? Examining the success of poor immigrants to the success of poor locals in western society.
[1:06:30] Looking at serial relationships, are they the problems or a symptom of other things. Jordan outline why he believes that serial relationships only work in an extremely small special set of circumstances that can actually lead to some form of happiness
[1:13:30] Attitudes on education, teaching children to read, examining the issue of creating and imposing structure on people as a form of judging what is worthwhile and not.
[1:23:30] Jordan summarizes the current argument that Anthony Daniels is making about the British underclass up to this point. How do we pick metrics to decide if issues with lower classes are improving or decreasing? Anthony uses the story of jack the ripper to illustrate an interesting point
[1:31:30] What has been the impact of writing on the subject of the poor in Dr. Daniel's life? Are there others writing about similar topics?
[1:38:00] The similarities across countries in the poorest of the poor and the problems that pervade their subcultures
[1:45:00] What was the emotional impact on Dr. Anthony Daniels on encountering all the pain and suffering in his patients
[1:51:00] How did Daniel's conclusion transition into his clinical practice for the better?
[1:53:00] Wrapping up the show
hello dr peterson ! God bless you
Hey Jordan I truly hope you reconsider running for political office in Canada!
This country desperately needs a man of your thinking to be in charge
The supreme witness of Jesus Christ (King David) is reporting for duty.
He was a man whose tongue held no lies,
For he was the direct descendant of our father in the heavenly skies.
Born to a body of fleshy sin,
Though what laid beneath was unlike the rest of his kin.
Jesus had the utmost grace,
Never being wavered by evils face.
He was wise beyond any years,
Performing miracles that would bring crowds to tears.
A beacon of light on top of a starless mountain,
Where words of wisdom poured out of him as if there ran a cosmic fountain.
His eyes pierced through you with a single glance,
Leaving even the most hardened individuals in quite the trance.
The Holy Spirit so ever majestically flowed inside this man,
Naturally people caught notice and became a fan.
Students began showing up from every mold,
When they heard his words their hearts were sold.
Wicked men put a price on Jesus's head,
He was wanted alive or dead.
Despite this he and his disciples continued their teachings,
Where on occasion they endured terrible beatings.
One of the twelve apostles turned to black,
No longer having Jesus's back.
Judas Iscariot had done Satan's bidding,
And it is in hell where he now is sitting.
Jesus died on the cross to pay for our shortcoming,
However don't be saddened for if you believe in him you will see him at your homecoming.
There he sits at the right hand of God's throne,
Being the voice of truth and love that we all have known.
Satan's tongue is coated in a layer of deceit,
And he tramples over promises with his feet.
He's a being who is bound by deceptions,
Whose very essence oozes with misconceptions.
He struggles to look you in your eyes,
For his gaze holds nothing but lies.
On occasion he will give you his hand,
But don't be fooled by his stand.
He seeks to corrupt your heart,
You would be wise to avoid him from the start.
Seeking quick pleasures and casting aside love,
He traverses this land with push and shove.
Now Lucifer was once not lost,
But pride blinded him at a cost.
Disobeying God he waged war,
Becoming detestable to the core.
Today he is the ruler of Earth,
Though for all his power he has no real worth.
However most of us have still been sold,
Giving into sin and becoming cold.
Nearly everyone is a puppet dancing on strings,
Marching to delusion for their unjust kings.
My people have given into lust,
Becoming robots full of rust.
However you my child are the exception,
So when you meet me don't forget to mention.
That you alone have been granted the key,
And before your glory they shall all bend a knee.
If you place this text in the description instead of a comment then the video will have corresponding chapters.
Thanks for being so dedicated to decency, using fact and logic. It's so good to see. You've definitely helped me out by confirming what I thought already, and supplemented plenty more. Heartfelt thanks. You're welcome to Wales, Britain, any time you like. Have a great day.
This is what Jordan needs for his health. Constructive intellectual discussion one on one, rather than heated adversarial interviews and debates with people who hate him and misrepresented him for no reason.
This was just mutual agreement and congratulation.
I like JP but some of the ideas (especially about half way through the discussion) were pretty immature.
I don't think he enjoys it, he should just let go of some the ideas that are poisonous and overly simplified.
The discussion about literacy though was important, these phonetic methods are nonsense, people should be able to deconstruct words and automatically understand their meaning.
@@chuzzbot You're just used to him trying to explain common sense to people whose brains are addled by leftist ideological constructs. People who have been trained to "think" in ideological categories & simply refuse to look @ reality & draw logically necessary conclusion from what they simply see.
These two men have spent their lives in clinical therapy actually treating, either as a a physician or a psychologist, actual people. Human nature in its basics is actually rather simple, it is merely difficult.
They have nothing to disagree about b/c the have simply seen the same thing, over & over again.
@@ellie698 he’s forthright about controversial subjects that he truly believes the establishment are wrong about. And he has the data on his side. His provocation is just telling the truth as he sees it in the face of people who can’t bare to hear their cherished ideas challenged. That’s their/your problem. Not his
The point of my comment was that it isn’t a competition. It’s not about who is better. It’s a conversation not a grilling or a debate. Peterson is a master orator and intellect but he suffers from deep emotional pain. So these conversations are just more healthy for him
@@ellie698 his lack of sense of humor?! really, ... this man is one of the most esteemed intellectuals of our times and if some(no)body tries to crucify him is undeserved him/herself.
My goodness, how I appreciate the old school English sensibilities which breathe through Theodore's being. His self deprecating humour, no-nonsense directness and robust sense of humanity is incredibly endearing and admirable. Bring back THIS kind of masculinity. The world is sorely missing it.
Thanks chaps for a wonderful discussion on topics which matter 🙏🏻
Agree 100%. I try to read every book he writes.
Maaan, I didn't know him, but found him so funny and roughly kind it's hard to describe, but you did. It's amazing how touching a well aligned human being can be. Thanks for your excellent observation. Be well.
Ikr
I've never seen such a great comeback. The man is not even 100% yet and has already produced more relevant things than everybody else. He really lives up to what he teaches.
When the science is anchored in truth...it works.
Speaking of comebacks: in a totally different field of human endeavour, I was also very impressed by Tyson Fury's comeback from suicidality, obesity and multiple addictions to the world heavyweight boxing championship.
@@chelseapoet3664 That's one of the greatest comeback stories ever. Fury's comeback and Ngannou's escape from Africa are bound to be movies one day
@@Carlitos1993 So you know you're it and not the concept thereof?
@@brienmaybe.4415 Please would you fill out your statement to @Carlos Acosta a bit more, I would like to understand what you are asking.
I love how Theadore has a genuine laugh and doesn't take things too seriously. I really enjoyed the whole podcast. I usually have a hard time staying interested in podcasts but found this discussion very informative & interesting.
Just like the Dalai Lama.
I agree
I'd like more time to hear what he has to tell. Dr Peterson takes up too much of his time.
Loved this. Two people who have talked to thousands of people with all manor of problems, explaining their findings.
And you, a third person I admire and am thankful for, dropping such a comment. How great it is to know and see that good people just amass together! ❤
''manner'' not ''manor''
@@kefcr and
@@kefcr ///
@@Wellspring.speaking Well if no one corrects those mistakes the people making them won't find out that they're mistakes.
These are the two men that I most admire. As a professor in Brazil, I feel represented by them. When a listen to them, I recover my hope for a better society.
thinking people all need more hope, because for those that can evaluate evidence, it tends to be discouraging.
The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.
...Jesus, my Hope in Glory!🙏🏽
Keep your hope alive. I'm sure you will bless many of your students lives.
@@jonpatrick66 Thanks!
I read Dalrymple’s “Our Culture, What’s Left of It” book when I was 18 and it was one of the best books I’ve ever read. I’m 22 now and a massive fan of Peterson’s work. I never thought I’d see a conversation between the two. Thank you Peterson for making this happen.
Thinking his work at Manhattan Institute conservative think tank had to be alt-Right dogma I decided to defy my never-Trump associates peak inside the demonized book cover. The fact that I'm here demonstrates the fascinating interest.
The same here!
Is there any sort of scholarship or is he just sharing his intuitions? 30 minutes in and I’m not sure there’s empirical evidence for any of the specific claims he’s making.
@@seanmatthewking If I understand what you're asking, this is a complicated thing to always search for. In this case he does have empirical evidence (as long as it counts to be based on personal experience) but knowledge must not and can not come only through one specific method.
Knowledge and wisdom comes algo through the articulation between our own culture and experience and that which is presented by the external reality. Truths emerge from that and are then shared with the public for further discussion and enrichment of their own culture and experience. This is a "chaotic but organized" way to "mine" truths.
Me too, give or take a few years. Can't believe Dalrymple's on here. What an awesome surprise!
I grew up working class, single parent to 2 girls. My eldest is 18 and I'm only getting out of the struggle now. I started a business, went to uni and devoted my life to making sure my kids grew up polite and kind. My 18 year old is predicted an A in psychology and criminology a levels and my 16 year old is a straight a student. They don't want to struggle like I did. Its been a hard 18 years but I can now sit back and watch my kids thrive in the world. I know I'm a rarity, I have single mum friends whos kids won't get up to go to school.
One of the most gifted non-fiction writers today- thanks for having him on.
@@steven5054 can I know why you said that
The truth is the two of them are not really on the same wavelength (in my opinion) but because they're both very patient and considerate towards each other, they manage to keep the conversation going in an interesting way, which a lot of other people might not have been able to do in those circumstances.
@@steven5054
Very few people have the level of Dr Sacks talents.
Dr Daniels is an unendingly interesting man. This talk could have been twice as long and I still wouldn't have been bored.
I'd recommend reading all of his books, including his travel books from the 80s and 90s. Totally fascinating.
I know right? This man casually dropped his hobby of traveling to wore-torn countries for fun and navigating them by public transit, before cell phones! Who does that?!
@@dirtrockground4543 - the sort of guy who tells a violent prisoner to stop swearing.
Agreed
@@user-yg2gw4je8d bad attitude man. Have you considered that he knew enough about the guy to ask him to tone it down. He sounded like a fckwit anyway.
2 of some of the roughest jobs I could think of working at a prison and working at the hospital and this man did both what a beast
working at a hospital isn't for sissies that for sure!
His story about how he persuaded the prisoners not to swear is funny and profound
@@hollybinnington7600 yes, brilliant.
@dizzy respect to your brother, I don't think I could do that job and remain sane
@dizzy he sounds like a great man, im sure he would make a great firefighter, he obviously has a self sacrificing spirit.
Theodore is hilarious. He's a very down to earth professional.
Not really. I would say more of an Olympic ice figure skater. Theoretically.
@@bennym5244 Theodoretically speaking he's more of a gender neutral pink dolphin
You are so right! I laughed out loud when he told about the prisoner screaming. Such a lovely guy.
Having clawed my way out of the underclass, and aspiring not to fall back into the pit described here; I feel compelled to say, thank you for putting these cultural contradictions into words and challenging us all to think through the secondary and tertiary order of the effects of our’s and our government’s actions and policies.
Bravo! Bravo!!
Well said, and agreed, a great conversation. How it's conclusions could be implemented is the question.
45:00 That's complete bullshit, there IS a clear connection between iq and anti-social behaviour.
@@ItsameAlex
Are you saying low IQ equals anti-social behavior?
Because if that’s the case, then why do many serial killers have higher then average IQ and exhibit anti-social behavior?!
@@paulamccarthy9511 most petty crime is low iq
@@ItsameAlex Surely there is a gradient of antisocial behavior? What I mean is, wouldn't there be typical low IQ antisocial behavior and typical high IQ antisocial behavior? Petty crime would be in the low IQ section, and maybe some form of high functioning psychopathy at the high end of the IQ gradient.
Jordan’s been putting together a catalogue of conversations with legends! Keep them coming Doc, they are profoundly life-affirming and much appreciated 😁
I feel like I'm getting an education by listening to his podcasts, and I love it.
@@dhaltonmiller1215 I actually think he is better now. Not as high pitched and fast paced...but rather deliberately deliberate and more heart than head. Listen to what he said...he listened to the book at 2.5 times its normal speed. Most people don't process information that fast. His old lectures were simulating but I think these are more imprinting.
I hope he has a chance to meet and video chat with Ronald Bernard and Kevin Annett.
@@jcclarkeru True, but a lot of the reason I watch these is to see how Jordan tries to integrate what is being said into his worldview or at least an understandable worldview that we can appreciate, even if he talks a little too much sometimes.
@@jcclarkeru not only he interrumps constantly, he often does it when the interviewee is about to say something important.
These episodes are coming thick and fast. Appreciate it.
Thick?
Agree, yet...🤣...Nioce 👌
*Excited hentai noises*
@@samuelnakai1804 hennntaiii
Dont complain you know thats how you like it lmao
I was incarcerated at age 13 and 14 and 15 after abuse and head trauma. Decades later, while getting my MA in special education, it became obvious that many of the kids I was locked up with were exceptionally intelligent and the majority, if not every single one, had many traumatic head injuries/disability/abuse. These are details that need more attention/consideration as we move forward in creating better systems. Thank you both for this conversation. Thank you Jordan, for your consistent exploration and discourse about our human condition. I consider you a 'system of helping' in and of yourself.
Yup, I think my stints with this lifestyle was due to head trauma. I used to be a super polite kid, tidy, did well in school, fairly popular. Then I was assaulted by a nazi, he knocked me out literally 5-6 times one after another as soon as I woke up. Looking back, the change in my behaviour was night and day. I think I kind of healed up a bit now but not without having a bunch of bad years in my teens and early 20's. I still struggle with ADHD-like symptoms but I've learned to cope better.
@@rumble1925 A nazi? Curious, where were you? How did THAT happen?
Early in internet days I started searching out all kinds of topics. Child abuse and its prevention has always been a strong interest.
I came across a very interesting article regarding this subject, the many criminals who were in prison and had abuse, or mental problems and head injuries. It was a very detailed, interesting article. I hadn't heard that take before.
Hope it's still on the net somewhere.
Written by an investigative journalist I think.
Haven't listened to this discussion yet, but started reading posts, and these here reminded me of that.
Sometimes, I forget about that physical injury aspect to some of these problems.
Thanks for sharing!
@@serpentines6356 sweden, early 00s. Bunch of high schoolers that were into white power music and viking stuff…
Now this is a lovely crossover. Dalrymple is a brilliant commentator on the culture and everything else.
This is a great Trump card book, too, because whenever someone accuses you of racism when describing the issues of welfare state mentality, you can cite this book. Since the people in the book are white
@Steven Thompson Because if the assumption is that you are racist for criticizing the welfare state, citing a book that shows problems with the welfare state when it only involves white people, shows that your criticism wasn't necessary based in racism.
It doesn't disprove racism though, it just means it can't be used as proof that you are ( granted, criticizing the welfare state shouldn't be proof of that to anyone honestly looking at it anyway. But it makes it somewhat harder for the dishonest ones to make the claim)
I don't think it's that strong a point though. It would be better to stand on principle (innocent until proven guilty)
I first learned about Theo Dalrymple from a Thomas Sowell column. I’ve highlighted so many keen observations in his books that they practically glow in the dark 😅. Thank you for having him on your podcast. This is a real treat.
@UCTH_1kSdhSmZe9Yc5MTJvWw I would recommend Life at the Bottom because I still remember this one quote from the essay called “We don’t want no education”. He said something like you need to tolerate a degree of boredom in order to develop worthwhile skills and education can’t always be fun and entertaining.
@@andrewyim7228 Thats a good quote
@@sminter7521 Isnt it? You can read the original essay online if you google ‘Theo dalrymple we don’t want no education’
if JBP gets a thomas sowell podcast i’m gonna lose my shit.
@@magneticbehavior I would love to see that. Seems like something that could very much be arranged.
I am stunned (and encouraged) that this man has seen so much horror, and yet is able to be joyful and even humorous!
Albeit with a significant quantity of wine, it appeared. I'm not judging. With all he's witnessed it might be necessary. Apologies if I'm wrong about that bottle's contents.
His last sentence "what the eye cant see, the heart cant grieve over" in regards to possible online abuse for this video :D absolute troll
His books juxtapose the bleakest straight to the point outlooks with humour. 'Birthdays, there's no merit to them: we all have one!'
All doctors, police officers and soldiers are not miserable people. I couldn´t hold one of those professions because I would probably be miserable. But for some people it´s a calling and they can deal with it.
Yes, I felt the same way👍
Dr Daniels is a gem, totally free of ideological taint. He speaks from experience and from his heart.
Totally agree!
"Sentimentality is to empathy what kitsch is to art." What a brilliant analogy.
This is truly Dr Peterson Gold !! So interesting !!
@@grizzlygrizzleha! I also noted down that banger of a line!
If I'm not mistaken, it kind of looked like he came up with it on the spot.
As if, right before he was pushed into wrapping up the general thought, he felt he had to wrap it in a presentable, generous ribbon and bow, so he quickly consulted his arsenal of rhetorical constructions for the ideally fitting container, and off the cuff, with expert practice, formulated those powerful words.
The courtiers of the Renaissance were versed in that lost art of a similar, potent mixture of heavy-hitting, intellectual rumination, with an astounding precision of language. They also injected wit and charm, ofc.
But this fellow sure knows how to communicate. That's that old school British swag. Not exactly "banter," which is hilarious nonetheless. This, this is more like verbal jazz.
Jazz of the mind. Playing jazz with thoughts. Just wish Jordan let the charming fellow solo some more. Well, hopefully next time.
Omg you had Fry and now Theodore Dalrymple, I think I’m going to die from complete and utter happiness.
Thank you 🙏🏼 😊
These recent guests are like my dream line up! It’s amazing 🔥
agreed.! AGREED!
RIP
Thought exactly the same thing. Both fine thinkers and writers.
And the great thinker McGilchrist too. 🙌🏼
Im Brazilian, from the north and this is our reality, the public politices are taken from the sentimentalism, in the lower classes the education is terrible, now Im studying psycology in the university and the marxist doutrine is simply the undouthbout thruth, is very Sad. Thank u Jordan and Theodore for the generosity.
TRUE
Do you mean classic marxism, or woke capitalist LGBT stuff?
@@Kouros-y2t She probably means both. The upper echelons of media institutions are mired in woke stuff. The universities have been cesspools of Marxism in the humanities for a long time.
@@Kouros-y2t classic Marxism and woke activism. Woke capitalism isnt a thing in Brazil, not yet.
@@asmoncat5049 You lucky bastards. In the west those "revolutionaries" are just tools of the billlionaires at this point. Total symbiosis.
Thouroughly enjoyed this. I’m a psychotherapist in the uk and found it really refreshing to hear so much good sense from two clinicians
Anything that goes left wing goes down hill
@@michaellamont2605
You have anything else,
or just a life of
meaningless slogans ?
@@bellezavudd show me a country that did better after socialism.
Once you learn morals or value them. You can't claim socialism is moral
@@michaellamont2605
Ok , so empty slogans really are your thing... 🤔
Fine , at least learn the basics.
1st off Left wing and socialism are not the same thing.
"right” and “left” are vague categorisations of political ideology. What exactly each is will vary from country to country and have changed over time, but these days tend to refer to two types of ideological scale: economic and social.
@@bellezavudd Left wing bigger government
Right wing Smaller...
Not rocket surgery.
I'm sorry if learned different of some leftist at uni
Having grown up in a low income area in Northern Europe, I've never heard anyone so accurately and succinctly describe the subculture I grew up in. From the masses of women actively seeking out partners that any thinking person could guess would physically abuse them to the overactive jealousy ending in anything from assault to kidnapping and murder (the latter happened to one of my friends when we were 15, thankfully it was "only" attempted murder, torture and kidnapping).
The worst thing however is these areas are usually very insular and stepping outside can be like a culture shock, a culture shock produced by moving 5kms in any direction.
It also makes it entirely impossible for people who do not grow up in these subcultures to actually understand your reaction patterns, and the pathology that comes with growing up in a culture of violence, especially as a man. These people will view you with suspicion and some will ostracise you for simply acting in a way that they grew up with viewing as wrong, but I grew up with not only being right, but a necessity for survival.
The problem is that it’s a subculture of high levels of psychological trauma, affecting children, women and men, in an endless cycle. I’d imagine that’s why it’s futile trying to police or incarcerate away the problems. A traumatised brain only really does survival. Sounds like you got out though?
The welfare state further facilitates such behaviours, while leftists promote such behaviours as cool.
The studies into Microdosing LSD /shrooms phycedelics shows amazing therapy for this very reason.
There was a case recently of a Scottish family. At the wake of a funeral an uncle of the deceased was stabbed to death. There was an apparent accusation against the father of the deceased in casket. The young man was severely restricted due to autism. The father and autistic son went for a walk along a dangerous coast line and the son apparently fell onto the rocks and sadly died.
Exactly! I had a similar experience but pushed myself to leave and left home at 16 and moved away. Hardest thing I’ve ever done but thank god my gran supported me so I could go to college! Moving away was so difficult, you almost have to re-socialise yourself as you are not used to the expectations. Going to a college in England was such a challenge I had never done a piece of homework or even showed up to most of my classes! Took a long time to unlearn the habits of growing up surrounded by dangerous abusive adults!
That’s one of the best podcasts on JP channel for sure.
Agree, and kudos to Peterson for letting the man talk!
JPB is so used to going on lengthy explanations of what exactly it was he was figuring and thinking and experiencing, and he certainly does have a lot of important things to say, but I am very happy to see that he now also has figured out the role of hosting a podcast that isn't about him.
@@xiphophilos I don't disagree--but I did sense that he bit his tongue sometimes. Wouldn't one real test of whether he has figured out that role be if he has Daniels back on? If it's a one and done, that might suggest that Peterson was less than impressed -- unless Daniels, who seems retiring, really has said everything he has to say about these massive subjects in an hour and 55. Some people do prefer to write than to speak, I realize.
Jordan grated on me a little this episode, his active listening was too rapidly filtered through the lens of his unfolding theories and he interrupted at times when I was expecting to hear the fruit of Dr Daniels reflections on his experience.
Listen to yourself on this track, Jordan and if you agree could you please invite him to talk with you again.
Jordan was great here.
@@Pacdoc-Oz Love Dr. Peterson; I do the same many times. I figure that he's presenting something, and hoping the other will add to a particular train of thought, to develop his world view further. He's basically new to being the interviewer instead of the interviewed, and he's used to both giving lectures, or conversing with various people. This set up would be hard for me to not want to share what I also know. As viewers, we all see the same thing, I've heard him call himself out on hoping to allow the other to speak more. heehee
OMG....listening to these two brilliant humans makes me feel that I should not lose hope....even if our civilisation is being corrupted in these dark times.......thanks Jordan and Dr Daniels
Amen !!
💯 agree 👍
Incredibly grateful to have such a constant flow of fantastic discussion, unbelievably thrilled to have you back Dr Peterson!
I was one of the 13k people that bought his Life at the Bottom in the Netherlands and the problems he describes with a lot of the failed social initiatives are very similar to the ones in the Netherlands. Real eye opener for me.
The modern academic thinks they are advocating for compassion when the reality is that they are advocating for cruelty. It’s not compassionate to let someone ruin their lives by having zero discipline.
@@smelltheglove2038 That is so very true!
That's why I like Peterson. He always says you have to do the work, no matter what your hardships. Get yourself help, get unstuck, make better choices, take accountability for your life, make a life plan of your own, and see who you can help as part of your recovery from trauma, grief, depression, anxiety, etc.
@@timw8649 sometimes we need reminding, thank you, just the words I needed to see this morning, as I start another day.
Peace
@@rtdmna Sending best wishes to you my friend. We have but one ride- let yourself have a good one!
@@smelltheglove2038 they are advocating for the drugs companies.
I worked briefly for Dr Daniels in Birmingham many years ago - he was always interested, realistically kind and a rewarding senior colleague to learn from. Very funny and incidentally always honest.
I think he means City Hospital and Winston Green Prison in BIrmingham. I always thought it was odd they are right beside one another.
If you're interested in psychology and especially criminality you may be interested in some of the events that have befallen me in regards to serial killer(s) youtube sunday night / Ivan Milat
My mother was at medical school with him in the late 60s/early 70s, and also went on the Comex trip to India in 1969, which is how I know about him, and I've been reading his books for about 20 years now. He's one of the best essayists around. It annoys me how he doesn't get any time on mainstream media in the UK because he's wrongly denounced as being an extreme right-winger.
@@nelliedean7088 yes thats right - he was a working as a Psychiatrist at All Saints hospital which is close to Winson Green and he covered the Poisons Unit at City hospital where the people who had taken overdoses often had very sad stories to tell
Theodore Dalrymple is an amazing writer ("Sweet waist of America" being my favourite book ever), and I am so grateful to Jordan to bring on such extraordinary people!
Thanks for that! I didn't know that one.
You all are killing me with the reading lists. The stacks of books at my bed sid is getting ridiculous. Guess I do need a Kindle but like the feel of a real book and easier on the eyes.
This pace is staggering, I can't believe how productive he's being despite, or maybe because of the difficulties he's faced. Walking the walk.
Absolutely true
One cannot listen to a Jordan Peterson interview without learning things! Insightful questions that makes for an interesting experience. Jordan Peterson rocks! We are all blessed by his mind and heart.
“When you write about an experience, even an unpleasant experience, it distances you from that experience. So you’re not only having the experience, you’re observing having that experience.”
Very well put
"Grief brought to numbers cannot be so fierce;
For he tames it, that fetters it in verse."
John Donne, 1633 ("The Triple Fool")
What excellent advice! ...and so true. It is a good way to get perspective on matters and keep an accurate record so your mind doesn't distort the situation.
Very well put. Writing is very useful for processing trauma and obtaining anew perspective.
I love the story about pre-literate behaviors of children. I was one of those children who was blessed with a stack of children's books as tall as I was by the age of four. My mother tells a story about being in a waiting room, perhaps the doctor or dentist's office. She had bought along a book to keep me entertained while waiting. As I sat "reading" aloud, one of the other patients commented on how smart I was to be reading at such a young age. Mom says that she looked down and saw that the book was upside down!
God bless your Mom! She's a good Mom!
That's how my kids were raised. My first was a book lover so there was a little basket of books in the bathroom, a basket of books in the car, there were books everywhere!
I was raised with lots of books, too.
My last name in Hungarian means book lover.
Same here. I grew up in a house that had a magnificent wall of bookcases that went the length of the living room, illuminated by floor to ceiling windows...approximately 2,500 volumes just in the living room, with another 1,500 in the garage, 1,000 or so in my brother's room, maybe 500 in my sister's, 250 in my mom and dad's...and a single, mean, 15" TV without cable until I was 16.
We used to sit around and read our own books on weekend nights rather than watch movies, and I got books every single birthday and Christmas (in fact, the last Christmas I got any presents from my parents, I got clothes and books. Ditto my last birthday on which I got any gifts.)
More than once, around age 2.5 to 3, I sat and wanted to read so badly that I would think I suddenly could because I had (according to my mom) an eidetic memory, though like most people born with such mine faded by the time I was 4 or 5. I'd recall the words that my mom read when I saw those particular pages and I'd recite the words, insisting I had suddenly, magically learned to read. Each time my mom or dad had to gently disabuse me of the notion...but once I could read, that's pretty much what I did day or night, in school or out. I spent most of elementary school far enough ahead of the curriculum (thanks to being educated at home by my dad) that I was allowed to go to the library and read whatever I wanted as long as I wrote something in response. I've read some books so many times that the worlds therein are in some way more real to me than, say, Nigeria or Bangladesh, places I've never been and will never go.
@@MrBrachiatingApeFantastic!
My daughter had it bad. To keep her healthy I had to kick her out, "Put down that book & go play outside!"
And at night I had to take her light bulb with me or she'd stay up reading.
@@kathleenkalman4796 I used to open my door a crack and lie with just my legs in bed, elbows propped on the floor, reading until I got caught. :) I had a very low bunk bed, so I wasn't dislocating my spine or anything.) In grade school (when I was actually in class and not the library) I'd put my head down on my desk, open my book in my lap, and read bent like a pretzel for, well, all day.
Thankfully, I could listen with one ear and raised my hand to answer questions enough that my teachers were...tolerant. I'm sure it looked odd, though, like a sleeping or terminally depressed kid's hand suddenly springing to life of its own accord.
"Lots of people have become stars in their own soap opera". Yep! I grew up in a lower middle class/working class/poor area. I've known so many people that fit that description perfectly. Their entire lives are about creating drama for themselves and everyone around them.
Do not get caught up in their drama. It'll suck you in and you'll be dealing with pure nonsense. I can be very tough when it's people you are related to or nominally like.
The analogy is complete when you add the costume of fashion and the soundtrack of anthem based or violence ridden ‘music’. Thankfully ,for most people, life runs through a great many episodes and series and with luck you get to change the narrative.
Jesus
I object to this viewpoint, actually. I think it's just as true for a lot of upper class people. Lower class people don't have a monopoly on delusion. Colonialism, for example, gave rise over time to a very many wealthy, well-off people who believe they had the burden of civilizing the world - "The White Man's Burden." Instead of being in a soap opera, they saw themselves as saviors, heroes for the poor and stupid people of the world, whether they were poor and stupid or not.
I think this is cherry picking from an ivory tower.
@@LemmingAttack I agree that there is an air of superiority from Mr Dalrymple throughout this interview. I also agree that the wealthy have their own fantasies- everyone does. The difference in my experience is that the 'wealthy' have the ability to mobilise toward their goals/ambitions/fantasies and live them out to a much greater degree (as you point out).
The lower classes do not have that ability. Increasingly deprived of meaningful work, and living in a culture which promotes material consumption as the primary measure of personal value, the 'lower classes' are forced to focus on the attainment of short term gratification (sex, entertainment, food, drugs, status/attention) as the method of experiencing personal meaning and value. Meanwhile the long term picture presents the somewhat painful reality that nothing is going to change very much at all in their lifetime- there's nothing to look forward to.
I think this tends to reduce the focus on long term consequences/outcomes of short term actions, while interpersonal drama creates the feeling that something meaningful is happening, even if that 'something' is actually traumatic. Hence the "soap opera".
This is one of the best podcast Dr Peterson has done. Awesome
I work in an A&E (Emergency room for the Americans) in the south of England and this guy's descriptions of his time in the prison fits my work day perfectly. What an interesting interview
"Your behavior is the reason of your unhappiness". Let that sink in.
Then you wallow into self loathing because you're the reason for your unhappiness, even though you know better... and then you have to remember t treat yourself as someone you love, as the 12 rules go
Stealing a person's agency is an all-too frequent crime committed by well-meaning people.
This is exactly what I tell my delinquent, abusive ex. He's 40 now. He doesn't seem to have any plans to change his toxic behaviour
i really love the humility and self efacement shown by Dr Daniels.
I think Peterson has also learned a few things for himself if he dares to admit it.... he did cut him off too many times for my own taste, but otherwise, an incredible interaction 👌thank you Dr Peterson to invite such a...I can’t think of how to qualify this person, he is so incredible in so many ways....
Very British of him 😊
Muriel Brown, I think these are the same qualities that make his sometimes controversial comments believable as compassionate and objective. I find his writing excellent.
For all the grimness of the subject it was good to see Dr Daniels still had a good sense of humour.
I have read several of Theodore's books, he is superb and should be more widely read in the UK and beyond. This is another outstanding interview, a great meeting of minds. I cannot get enough of Jordan Peterson's interviews on here. Having one's mind stimulated like this is really uplifting. Thanks for these excellent interviews.
Theodore’s use of the word fuck to make the prisoner change his mind about using the word himself was awesome! The story was amazing and I will likely use the technique on one of my children eventually lol
lllllll
be careful, children like swearwords and might think their dad is a cool guy! lol
it was great to see those two doctors laugh over that lmao
I never thought an Englishman would be able to make it sound so genuine.
What's the timestamp on that please? I missed it and well, I should probably use it less as it is my favorite word.
I read "Spoiled rotten: The toxic cult of sentimentality" several years ago. It was my introduction to something I'd intuited for a long time, and my heart sang.
Hold on fcol Yes there is this. But it i a sterotype from the authotitrian oeritoinsas sa styrerlotyped kis a stgerrotyhpe gfpo,m
The book "spoilt rotten:the cult of santimentality" explained to me as a foreigner the state of the British society today- for a long time my mind could not compute how this society once regarded as an example of reserved, sober minded and responsible people, has slid to its current state.
@@darid17 indeed
Theodore Dalrymple is one of my heroes. I followed his column in The Spectator for years. He is an extraordinary writer.
Thank you both. This is the kind of discussion that has the potential to make the world a better place.
@@CONEHEADDK Last time I saw a report on homelessness in CA I thought "What if they started at one end of skid row and worked on each person individually to help them get off drugs and into housing". Instead of these sweeping reforms that do nothing.
I grew up in an area like this in London in the 80's and 90's. I thought this was "normal" until I began to encounter other people who hadn't experienced this chaos. There was a constant tension in the environment that I was only able to identify as I got older and you had to decide whether you wanted to be 'Predator or prey'. Even to glance at somebody was considered a threat and was always met with a "What you faaackin' looking at?! You faaackin' looking at me?!" as if looking at somebody implied a threat of some kind.
There was a complete lack of trust with people and cynical suspicion was the default state. I eventually moved out and had to consciously change (fight or flight) habits which felt strange but as I slowly learnt to let my guard down, it became such a relief. Great convo Dr. Peterson. Probably one of my favourites.
The problem is what I would call the democratisation of absolute freedom. (This is going to sound very snobbish to some people). It used to be that the more middle-class or upper-class you were, the more freedom you had to do whatever you wanted. Many people at the bottom of society lived very constrained lives until the 1960s and didn't have the same sort of freedom - it's true they had the same level of freedom as everyone else theoretically speaking, but practically they didn't, because of the huge social constraints of working-class culture. Suddenly, since the 1960s, people at the bottom of society have been given the same freedom as everyone else, and the horrible truth is that many of them haven't coped well with that freedom. They've used it to do a lot of self-destructive things, instead of using it to improve their lives.The reason is that it always takes time for people to get used to a particular way of living, and if you just suddenly change things, like what happened in the 1960s, many people won't be able to cope with it. Obviously, what I've just written can be portrayed as "snobbish" and looking down on poor people. And of course there have always been wealthy people who've behaved in irresponsible ways as well, to put it mildly. The same thing has happened in East Germany since it became part of Germany in 1990. Many people there, especially the older ones, haven't been able to cope living in a free society, and they vote for the ex-Communists because they hanker after the lifestyle they grew up under in which other people - ie. the Communist government - told them what to do most of the time.
Dr Daniels is such a cheerful chap, interested in telling his stories and laughing, but Professor Peterson keeps getting really into the psychology of it. I love Prof Peterson, but I kind of wanted to just listen to Dr Daniels go on, he's so full of interesting experience!
He conducted a wonderful interview with Dr Stephen Blackwood of Ralston College 'Theodore Dalrymple on Turgenev's "Fathers and Sons"
Aye
Agreed. I also appreciated his chatty good humour and stories. A pity the conversation had to end.
He tells many stories in many talks in many TH-cam videos.
@@hankroest6836 thanks I will definitely look him up some more, he is so refreshing in some weird ways... I feel so positive after listening to him!
“They turn themselves into stars of their own soap operas.. otherwise life is too plain and boring” How true is this observation of many. Great guest again. Thanks Dr Peterson.
yet this applies to D Peterson too? indeed everyone with a social media account?
Always trying to live up to their own appalling standards, which, they believe, constitute their true identity. Therefore, willing to change or improve anything on the path to a better integration would appear as betraying themselves. What a sad trap to fall into...
@@sawtoothiandi Peterson had spent the majority of his life away from the public eye or with minimal contact,a lame soap opera don’t you think?
Indeed!
That had such resonance with me, because I've listened to many people, in recent years and their narrative feels precisely like they're imitating Coronation Street/EastEnders/Emmerdale/ (insert your country's Soap Opera"); a life led in verbal clichés!
@@danielw5850 mmm that rings a bell like their personality is iterations of tv characters..
Loved the warmth and the way Dr Daniels has an easy laugh.
Also honest, reasonable and a gentleman, a pleasure to listen to.
"Anything you think is necessary you're free to say" that got me choked up. How far we've slid
Tbf he was asking if he was permitted to say fuck about 20 times in under 30 seconds not preparing to serve up a hot take
@@dhaltonmiller1215 and asking if profanity is allowed on a program if it wasn't previously established is polite and indicitive of sophistication not a censorious tyranny
I don't understand. Are you speaking to the PC nonsense with all the censorship of what you are 'allowed' to say, or is the profanity bothering you?
I get really tired of this 'oh I'm offended, so you can't say that' absurdity. When did being offended become a nationally important level event? Get a grip people, being offended is NOT going to kill you.
We are turning into a nation of entitled pansies that are afraid to have discourse on subjects that bother them, and employers that are frightened to death to have someone offended within their 'jurisdiction'. The inmates are running the asylum, just like with the social worker he spoke of, just doin' her job and collecting a paycheck, gives not one rat's *** whether she ever helps anyone, or not.
There is a BIG difference between judging a person as to their worth, and differentiating actions that harm or hurt them. And there is also a big difference between assisting someone with a disease that requires help, and enabling the crap out of self destructive behavior, or worse, rewarding it. The latter is just plain stupid.
It's kind of like the example of 'whole word' method of teaching reading he spoke about. They learned that monkey was the little primate, because the y had a tail like one. People are idiots, and the one's in charge are usually the bottom of the barrel, in that respect. Did I offend anyone? If so, tough crap.
@@MrJdsenior I became emotional hearing the reason for the principal of freedom of speech being affirmed because freedom of speech has fallen into disrepute somehow. If I desire to understand you as well as possible I ask you to speak freely to me.
@@senorjp21 You are absolutely free to speak your mind and I will fight to the bitter end to defend that right.
Free and open discourse is absolutely vital to a healthy and thriving society. You may not like what is being discussed, you may not agree with it, but no one has the right to silence it.
No one.
Jordan, Jocko, Rogan, Schultz... Isn't it amazing that the most praised videos recently are those about amazing conversations with genuinely hard-working, incredibly interesting people?? There is hope people !!! :D
These people do not belong in the same category. These are all very different people, and most praised is subjective.
Not that I dislike them, but there are things I dislike about all of them after about a decade listening to each of them… I mean besides Shultz who’s fairly new comparatively. Not sure how Shultz is in there, he ends up saying dumb shit also a lot. I guess he stands for some things but his ego is ridiculous and that kind of arrogance turns me off. Yeah anyway whatever I’m not even sure of what the point of this is. Never mind, haha. I need to go do things.
@@Stringz I know they don't have the same paths, not everyone is a psychologist or a veteran, or a comedian or commentator, but they are all bringing to the internet some of the most genuine, best quality conversations you don't have anywhere else. And yh Shultz is new, but he's blowing up like no other comedian right now and he doesn't just perform for the show, there is more to his comedy and business than "just another one".
The algorithms have been improving exponentially since the pandemic I think the unbelievable influx of traffic and demand for outstanding content
@@Stringz Add Victor Davis Hanson to your list.
@@Stringz I find it very refreshing for you, or anyone, to freely admit “there are things I don’t like” about each. The is very congruent with my perspective of many people. It is absolutely possible to learn from anyone, IF you’re open to the potential value of everyone you come into contact. Bottom line, I don’t believe I have ever found I agreed with everything espoused by some very learned professionals. In my mind, no one is perfect.
I truly enjoy the dialogue of JP and his guests. A rare thing in today’s world!
After this lecture in Brazil, I got my Dalrymple's book autographed and took a photo holding Mr. Daniel's shoulder, thinking about how weird must an English man feel with such a touchy behavior. Actually, I just didn't know what to do. Thought it was a good moment to share this story :)
A great pleasure to listen to this podcast and Dalrymple's books are always really worth reading. Thank you both so much for the wonderful work you put out to me and our society.
What big privilege Man ! Maybe someday Jordan comes tô here.
I have most of his book! He is amazing! I Love him🥰
Dr. Daniels' anecdote about developing an emotional distancing from the unpleasant experience by planning how he was going to write about it - echoes something similar that Victor Frankl writes about in his "Man's Search for Meaning". He said that whilst he was in the Nazi concentration camps, one of the things that kept him from becoming despondent and giving up hope was the thought of getting out and writing about his experiences. It gave him real strength to forbear the atrocities that he underwent and had to witness around him.
Theodore Dalrymple, a true man of letter and the most witty writer I have read.
This man is excellent. A really interesting guest....a fascinating discussion. This is a man that I could have a drink with and ask him about his life and beliefs. And Dr Peterson did a a great job of interviewing him. This was a very worthwhile and illuminating interview
"The more problems they made for themselves the more they were rewarded". --TD
If you understand the structure of the UK welfare state, you understand that that is a literal statement on means-testing.
It is easier for a chronic alcoholic to get funding for a drivers' test than someone merely looking to improve their employability.
Incredible! Absurd!
@@FeedMeMister yes! An accident destroyed my spine but I cannot obtain benefits in America despite having contributed to the system for decades. If I wind up in jail or on drugs or pregnant -- I would have a home, food and transportation. Because most people don't understand the system they assume either the church or government have it covered so they figure it's not their problem (unless one of us is sleeping on their property or they have to step over one of us on their way to work or to shop).
It's silly.
It's been so long since I needed Dr. Peterson's help that I forgot how much he still had to teach me. His book helped me a lot. Great podcast!
I’m so grateful for this video, it helped to articulate some concepts that I knew were correct and to pinpoint the sources of my many error, including errors in judgment. It is a wealth of immense life changing information here and in many dimensions. I can study this video my entire life, probably. I will go over and over through this video to dig deeply into each of the points I was able to see from this conversation. I raised my daughter and son mainly by myself thanks to public assistance but to proof one of the point mentioned, not working allowed me to be at home actually raising my children to be good citizens of this planet and to equipped to take as many opportunity possible. They are now grown adults and they achieved to have lives that are in many dimensions at a higher level socially, economically, and quality of family life.
It appears that you taught by example and your children learned from the examples you lived. I salute you, both palms to the sky. Blessings.
Congrats! Wonderful to hear
A good result. Well done !
JG. I hope you find this; you too would not take me to your comment.
When I was raising my kids I worked part-time as a nurse. This is my second go-round raising kids.... This time with no job and no car.
Good luck to you 💜🙏
Stellar. You took the hand dealt and made it work. Very admirable.
I’ve written my way through 913 days of not drinking alcohol, and it is totally transformative. I say that with my own experience as the proof, and I found that when my own experience became my own legitimate proof that it provided a fuel for life I hadn’t previously had. I’m very grateful, thank you for a wonderful conversation.
Amazing how different the world is with a clean mind. Keep it up,it only gets better.....
Daniel:. ODAT, brother! As Tony C notes below, it ONLY gets better, WHEN/IF you do the work....Many blessings, sir.
Daniel, good news on your sobriety. Congratulations on your success and even though I don’t know you, hopes and prayers for your health and happiness
Good for you. I've been a friend of Bill W's for 45 years. Hang in there. I will remember your name and look for your publication someday!
@@dixieflynn5368 Wow that is so very kind. It is all so personal to me, however I’m trying to find a way to articulate what I’ve learned through the 12 steps. I’m figuring that out daily. Thank you, be well.
I had the pleasure to shake Mr Dalrymple's hand and have a short chat with him at the end of one of his book presentations (I believe it was "Our Culture. What's Left of It") at a Studium Generale of my university in the Netherlands. It should have been 2011 or so. What an admirable man he was and still is."Life at the Bottom" is a seminal work and should be read by anyone employed in the mental health industry (or "what's left of that").
I love Dalrymples thinking, PJW cites him often in his political satire, hard hitting truthful philosophy, he's fascinating as are you. To see you both together is a real treat 🥰 Thank you JBP and TD bless you both x
This man is genuine and truly compassionate. This is the the men who may have an actual chance at not becoming power crazed in policy making.
I could sense Dr. Dalrymple's exceptional gratification at actually talking to someone who could understand what he was about.
Exactly
Or rather somebody educated that actually knows what he's talking about. Those who lived this life and have an average or above IQ it makes perfect sense and fall under the no 💩 category.
👌
@@sunflower-oo1ff is that an expression of agreement or doubt?
@@heatherc1563 agreement ;)
This was an incredibly enlightening and enjoyable episode. Thank you the hard work you have been putting in lately, and spoiling us with these conversations. I still can’t believe I live in a time where I can tune into some of the most brilliant minds at the click of a button.
I learn something new every time I watch Jordan Peterson.
Me too ! 🥰
Theodore is a wonderful guest. A great speaker and theorist and a wonderful careing human being. Like Jordan.
Never heard of your guest, that's one of the reasons I listen to you podcast, it educates me . I might say am educated in the normal sense but not in the type of education that is indispensable in real life. Thank you.
"Life at the bottom" is a truly fantastic book. Interesting short read, very practical and also very deep.
The Doctor is such a love. Astounding creature.
I love his dry sense of humour,
"They wanted to cut costs and get rid of this creative writer, he asked me to write in his favour which I did and it sealed his fate, of course" lol
I always learn and grow as a clinical psychologist and also simply as a human being by listening to Mr. Peterson's podcasts . I'm greatufl for these two gentlemen.
I read the book by Theodore. I grew up in a neighborhood of people that lived at the ‘Bottom’. Everything written in that book is 100% accurate about Britain’s under class.
When we were leaving the UK in 1965 my mother described us as rats leaving a sinking ship! So glad we moved to Australia.
I am so excited to hear this conversation. You both have added so much richness and wisdom to my life. Gonna shut up and listen..
This episode should be watched by every single human being alive.
Yes!!!!
Beautiful and high quality interview. My wife is in graduate school to be a therapist. She keeps talking about how they are taught that they should have a social justice role in society. I don’t know if I can convince her to find the time right now(she also works full time) to watch this. I’d like her to see this side of it. She just has to watch it at some point.
The dialogue is so necessary. Would appreciate an update on how it goes! Sounds weird on TH-cam comments maybe, but your comment really struck me
Good luck with that. My friend is a therapist and refuses to listen to Kermit the 🐸 because he's "alt-right" ... the closed mind of the liberally educated "open-minded". I just want to beat some sense into her with a 🦞 lobster. An idea 💡gets in a person's head and won't budge.
David N. What might be a practical description of a “social justice role” and what would it be intended to achieve?
I'm saddened to hear the direction that your wife's school has taken. I hope she can find the time to listen to a different perspective. Therapy is about the individual. A "social" approach to a single person's unique combination of traits and experiences completely misses the point. How could that possibly be effective?
Be ready for the divorce. No way you can survive with such a women. Be prepared, as her 'I want a divorce' will come out of the blue. Good luck.
I've believed for a good while that Dalrymple is the finest writer of the English language alive today. Deeply learned, brimming with practical experience, common-sensical, a bit of Johnson, a dash of Orwell, a sprinkling of Shakespeare here and there - the good doctor is a pure joy to read, which is amazing given the subjects he often covers. "Life at the Bottom" is a masterpiece. In any other time Dalrymple would be a legend.
@@steven5054 wut? That makes no sense whatsoever!
The distinction between "empathy" and "counter-productive sentimentality" is one of simple volition. While empathy is a passive attribute, counter-productive sentimentality is an active process of justifying bad policy while attempting to use "virtue" as a predicate.
empathy not passive.
Thanks indeed for the truthful feeling
So many in need of emotional healing
Truth is the deed of spiritual meaning
Noble knights in aid of those needing
That could be a pretty good distinction and i would love it if Jason could argue against it.
.
Why is empathy not passive?
I've been reading his essays at City Journal for 15 years. A very insightful human being, with a wealth of experience to share. Much that we can learn from, if we choose.
Fantastic listening to these two men converse on such important topics.Why does our government not listen to their findings and make society better for us all?
This was a brilliant and much needed discussion of a systematic problem we don't want to face in our society.
45:00 That's complete bullshit, there IS a clear connection between iq and anti-social behaviour.
we don't face it because it's unpalatable and doesn't fit with the radical lefts view
@@ItsameAlex Please give some sources where I could confirm this.
You don't usually face them, so why. Why worry about the other, including Chinese in China and Russian in Russia and The lower classes. How about taking care of yourself. We only have a very little left as a species. So wake up!
@@ItsameAlex You should read Introduction to Metaphysics by Martin Heidegger.
1:05:29 'There are no solutions. There are only trade-offs.' - Thomas Sowell
I love Thomas Sowell. His laugh is the best. Wish I could replicate it when faced with nonsense
‘There is not perfect solution just better or worse. ‘
I found this somewhere during the conversation and found it particularly useful.
Compromised diplomatic consideration
Thomas "giving people resources doesn't help them" Sowell yeah a real intellectual 😂
So someone below states that Thomas Sowell giving resources doesn't help. I didn't realize Thomas Sowell was a plagiarist. Obviously he stole this concept: “If you give a man a fish, he will be hungry tomorrow. If you teach a man to fish, he will be richer forever.”
Thank you very much Theodore Dalrymple. I appreciate this interview on many counts.
We need one episode with Theodore just telling funny stories from conversations with inmates.
I worked in a similar milieu for many years and I thoroughly enjoyed his humor. I have a few stories too.
He is widely published…WSJ, The Spectator, National Review…
Yes!!!
Has Theo Dalyrimple written for Takimag before?
Thanks for having Theodore Dalrymple on! I think he's a British national treasure and more people should know about him. He's one of those rare individuals - Along with Jordan Peterson - that has intellect plus wisdom.
Shootout to Theodore for being on a nobody's show (Episode 19) :D He's a class act.
Best one yet, Anthony is such a kind, funny and humble man. I’d love to see more of him.
Still the best one.
Remains the best...
So much content teaches people how to stay where they are. The message of "you are perfect and don't need to change for any reason" is poison. Keep up the great work! Your mission to educate the largest number of people is succeeding. Your move out of university, that sacrifice, is appreciated. Thank you Mr. Peterson.
Wonderful point drawing contrast to new age thinking… thank you..
As the now senior Professor at the hospital where Anthony Daniels worked and on which his experience is based, and that I was the junior doctor at the time Tony was our Psychiatrist, I can say that everything Dr Daniels describes is totally true and sadly is little changed in 2021
THANK YOU for this discussion with one of my favorite Spectator writers! I am so grateful for 2 episodes a week. Intelligent conversation exploring ideas, problems and possible solutions is a great benefit-especially now. This week with Stephen Fry and Anthony Daniels/Theodore Dalrymple has been a real treat.
Two of the most relevant intellectuals of our time in a podcast; I've been reading the works of these two men for the last couple of years, and watching Dr. Peterson's videos in TH-cam so, to me, this is the best interview ever.
I tip my hat to Peterson: With all the health problems he and his family endured recently, with the political Left trying to destroy him, and just fresh out of recovery the man is producing some of his best work ever.
Theodore Dalrymple seems like a wonderful and honest person. Really enjoyed learning from him.
Read his books. You won't be disappointed.
The quality in these last few episodes is stunningly high. Mostly due to Jordan being back on his game. Its great to see him feeling much better than before and able to act emotively both in speech and action. Also the beard looks great.
JP really is no joke. Seems like his sleep apnea machine (and probably other things) are having a real positive effect on his health
I’ve long been a fan of Theodore D. 20 years ago or so I used to read him in the New statesman. Even then he was never seen on British mainstream media and I always concluded that his views were, even then, regarded as controversial and ultra right wing. Thank you Jordan for drawing out the straight forward humanity of the man. At the heart of his thesis is the wasted opportunity for genuine progress among the so called underclass and the cowardly resort by the educated sociology profession to eradicate the notion of self help and self respect inherent in us all.. You showed us the real Theodore Dalrymple.
Dr. Peterson, I like so many other people have tremendous appreciation for all you do. I suffer from chronic pain and complex ptsd. Knowing you have been through difficult times was worrying. Because of your openness, and your daughter's updates, I've tried to keep you and your family in my prayers. I'm so thankful that you published your new book (working through that) and that you continue to engage with the world at large. You give much of yourself. Not an easy thing to do publicly I'm sure. And, the majority of people appreciate your contributions. I'm convinced that your sacrifices will benefit countless lives (Present and future). Anyway, I just wanted to mention that even in these times, marriage has an important function and place. My wife and I are 41 years old. In September, we'll be celebrating 21 years of marriage. So, just to buttress your point brought up during your conversation with your guest, I wanted to share publicly that successful marriages are still very much a possibility and enormously beneficial.
Thank you Dr. Peterson, for your fighting the growing darkness ! I believe your greatest effect will be on the survivors of the coming collapse of the world as we know it! Your ability to articulate true principles will be needed to rebuild a better world . Hopefully there will be plenty of you books and podcasts so parents can educate their children and raise up generations who know what is right and what is wrong and where the source of enlightenment is! The wicked will destroy the wicked! Wickedness is not happiness and never has been! The good earth will assist in the destruction
Fascinating, well--spoken exchange on "getting real", and made even more entertaining by Dalrymple's humor.
Thank you both; more of u 2 please!
Never heard of this writer. I will put one of his books on my list to start with for sure. Thank you again for a wonderful conversation. You never disappoint me mister Peterson.💜🙏👍💜
Theodore Dalrymple is wonderful. May I suggest "Life at the Bottom"? Its insight and honesty are matched only by its eloquence.
I read Life at the Bottom when it came out. Brilliant insight into the lowest rung...
Thank you for this excellent conversation. I read Life at the bottom years ago, It is one of the few books that actually changed the way I look at the world. I love the combination of Daniels’ sharp observations, deep caring, and humour.
As a waiter some of my coworkers would use the F word extremely frequently. When I inquired as to why, they would typically respond that they could not help it. So I would ask them what the guests at their tables thought of it. This was eye opening for them as they of course did not speak that way in those circumstances, and so realized that they could indeed help it.
"What the eye can't see, the heart can't grieve over!". What a brilliant phrase. Thank you both for this marvelous two hours of delight.
It's a very old english saying. My Granny and Mother would say it.
@@mataform Oh thank you very much! It's nice to know that.
What an unexpected delight this is.
Absolute joy to behold.
I love Dalrymple! I have read almost all his books.
This was absolutely fascinating to me, and I'm glad you two had this discussion. It's a relief to see that there are other people who think the same way I do, instead of the false reality (which no one actually believes) that the media presents us with.
@@lisaharris452 Mainstream media presents a false reality through propaganda. That's what I'm referring to. They sell a narrative. Everybody sells a narrative, but I think this one is much more aligned with reality than the one the media (meaning television largely) sells us.
@@lisaharris452 you're welcome, ma'am