Didn’t you also bring back a weird bluish sphere in ME2’s Firewalker DLC? It was said to be Prothean, but it still looks Reaper to me. Also, Cerberus scientists on the dead Reaper were seeing-presumably- husks come from the vents before they became them. That’s not entirely related, but interesting to bring up.
@@arcadeinvader8086 I believe this was technically explained in game somewhere. Something along the lines of not being able to fit both a thermal clip, and a heat vent into most guns. Which makes sense with some weapons in the game actually, like pistols and smgs.
@@SageSchispell Additionally in Jacob's loyalty mission, his father's ship had been crashed for a decade (before the switch), and you find thermal clips all over the place. (probably just game engine limitations)
I think its more that thermal clips eject heat from the gun. If your gun overheats too much, it'll probably end up damaging it in the long run, and a good soldier would maintain their equipment. But most importantly, doing this is technically a choice - you could choose not to eject a saturated thermal clip and build up more and more heat at the risk of eventually bricking your gun. In a situation like this, an injured Shepard that may not even have their clips, might make that choice. In the final fight, where survival is everything and you can't take the risk of 'reloading', overheating the weapon might be the lesser of two evils. Of course, this is a fridge logic explanation for the obvious 'devs didnt want to worry about ammo in a mostly cinematic section'.
My addition to this is: when you talk to Javik, when he recalls about the prothean's fight against the Reapers, he tells about how a part of his people got indoctrinated and were pushing to control the reapers, rather than destroy them.
Indeed. All known parties who believed in control were stated to be manipulated by the reapers to beleive this. It would be strange fort the catalyst, who is bound to the reapers in a way we don’t know to tell you that “sure, you can control us”, when this has bee shown multiple times to be a ploy by the reapers
And for those that would argue that maybe Shepard is the exception and is strong willed enough to choose control. While this is a possibility, it is extremely unlikely. I present Morinth, whom prominently appears in Mass Effect 2. Morinth is an Ardat Yakshi(a pure blooded Asari that will actually overload the mind and kill anyone who breeds with her).Morinth at some point will try to convince Shepard that while everyone in her 500 years of going through this process has died, she believes that Shepard is strong willed enough to handle it, since Shepard was able to resist an earlier attempt at a mind control like biotic ability. This is of course shown to be a ruse, as choosing to undergo with the process, Shepard is killed in a very disturbing manner. Case and point, it is even more likely that Shepard would fail to control the reapers than he would with choosing to breed with Morinth. The catalyst playing the same game, he couldn’t do it, but you can is an appeal to ego.
@@ConnorLonergan And the prothean VI stated that each cycle has the same peaks of evolution, and the same valleys of dissolution, then implying that this sequence of arguing for control has happen many times before. The fact that those arguing for control have been ended up being indoctrinated multiple times before heavily heavily implies that the indoctrination is what leads to belief in control in the first place. Like Kaiden stated, the reapers tactics are ingenious, using indoctrination to systematically divide the galactic races of a cycle, causing them to lose a man, while the reapers bolster their own forces. Control is the dividing force that is caused by indoctrination.
One of the reasons I like this theory, despite its flaws, is that your goal through the trilogy was always destroy the reapers. So for them to suddenly present other options in the final minutes of the game feels like them trying to trick shepard in one last attempt to make sure he fails. When you ignore it and still focus on your goal, destroying them, shepard lives. Kinda tells us something was off with the others.
@@absol-lutezero5309 according to the Leviathans, the intelligence was created to stop synthetics destroying organics. Synthesis is similar to the outcome achieved by creating Reapers, converting organic life into biomechanical life.
@@rowantritton8659 while sorta true yes but keep in mind if synthesis makes synthetic and Organics the same cause the need for one ti slaughter the other to be taken away the Reapers no longer have a purpose so renders them pointless
The indoctrination through dreams part makes sense for me. In my recent playthrough, Mordin died in the suicide mission. And in every dream, I hear Mordin saying "Do the right thing" it's like as if the reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard, but his memories of his dead teammates are trying to save him. And it's not just Mordin! I heard a lot of teammates but I don't really remember them and Mordin's voice was the only one stuck in my mind cuz that part really punched in me :/
@@eldritchedward Yeah even before IT when I first played ME 3 I didn't think the nightmares where just nightmares. I assumed then his head was getting screwed with. Can't believe there are a large portion of players that just take it as nightmares.
@@xtremejay2000 I always assumed it might be either, which I enjoyed. Shepard has been through a lot. But then again... there was just something off. I was really let down by it not being resolved.
But you love Mass Effect so much so that the rest of the story is written wonderfully except for the ending because you "didn't like it." Then it's "Bad writing?" Do you even write bro?
@@Cabbage22927 I mean that would then mean admitting they are worse writers. They pretend they did mean it, then means they wrote an ending with way more plot holes than the original had. Sure its a more interesting idea, but pretending it was intended makes them worse writers for it would mean they created a ending that contradicts itself at every turn
At the very beginning of 3, the little boy playing with the ship wasn’t just showed to the audience. Shepard is seen watching him from his room while he’s playing. So every scene involving the boy is witness by Shepard
@@nicolasfonts3194 Yeah, he does the same thing a few times throughout this video. Like not mentioning Reaper tech onboard the Normandy, or how the Indoctrination Theory mentions the "oily shadows and sour yellow notes" relate to shadows in Shepard's dream, and the growls the Reapers emit. Or the fact that the oily shadows reappear when talking to Anderson and The Illusive Man.
and then there's no one who helped the boy into the ship that a few seconds later gets shot down. not even people already inside the shuttle. that's not normal, even in that kind of situation. Sure the marines may not have spotted the kid, but no one inside seeing a kid struggling to get on tried to help him?
Another bit of evidence for indoctrination theory - the final choice chamber is a giant dialogue wheel, complete with the paragon, neutral and renegade color coded decisions. You literally walk along the dialogue wheel to make a choice. This dialogue wheel is how Shepard thinks. The ending is occurring in Shepards head :D
Very interesting observation. Renegade red- shoot your problems to solve. Paragon Blue- Be the hero, sacrifice. Synthesis- sacrifice yourself, but make a choice for everyone without their say. The reSon this theory lives is because there is something suspicious going on with how it plays out.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 Certainly could be. I interpret it as the reapers positioning their two pro reaper options as positive or pragmatic, while independence is renegade. To my knowledge, this is the first time in game there has literally been blue and red lights in the world map to indicate paragon or renegade decisions. The rest of the time it's just been a UI indicator.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I choose synthesis purely due to all creatures being granted much longer lives, access to all previous cultures, synethics become real. Control ending - what if Shepard goes mad or somehow loses control, the reapers will start all over whilst destroy will set back the galaxy to the stone age practically, due to the destruction of electronics.
Head Canon: Marauder Shields is Nihlus How? Why? Don’t know, don’t care, just want to believe the Reapers somehow got his corpse and put him right there just to stop Shepard if he got that far
I think it’s possible that even if the developers didn’t intend it, the indoctrination theory can still be a good explanation for inconsistencies in the ending and maybe give a more satisfying conclusion than the official ending. I think it definitely makes the Destroy ending more satisfying because perhaps destroying the Reapers doesn’t actually destroy EDI and the Geth. That may have been a lie from the Catalyst to keep Shepard from choosing that ending. That would also mean that the Extended Cut narration would also be part of this theory and would be a lie.
Feel like a lot of it can’t be thrown out but he is probably not indoctrinated It does feel manipulative to choose the child they killed to not seem like genocidal alien robots He does try pushing you to not choose the destroy ending and it is quite outputting that the synthesis ending sounds just like indoctrination
They confirmed it as it not being that deep and while it sounded cool and to have these fan-fic, it's just that, a fan-fic. It is still nice to have had the theory.
I think that the Geth were wiped out as they were all together in fleet formation and the Destroy signal ricochets around all of the mass relays to destroy synthetics across all the star systems, but I believe Edi survived thanks to Joker being the best Alliance pilot. The Normandy was outrunning the destroy effect the last time we saw in the ending, slingshotting to other relays. All Joker would need to do at the end is slingshot into a star system that the Destroy shockwave already ended inside of. And that would mean slingshotting into a star system with a busted Mass Relay, which is what it seems like happens when the Normandy is crashed on that unnamed planet at the end. They likely hadn't taken off yet either do to Joker pushing the Normandy systems to the absolute limit running away, or due to the knowledge that the Mass Relay in their system was heavily damaged and they'd need to wait for repairs.
even if it wasn't canon, the catalyst could've still lied about killing the geth and EDI just to disuade Shepard and try to get on his sympathetic side, heck he even represented himself as that child shepard saw die in front of him to further make him more empathetic towards him, the catalyst is hardcore trying to manipulate shepard on many levels, theory or not theory
Personally I do think the Catalyst lied about synthetics being killed- or at least over-exaggerated the damage it would cause. It would make sense if EDI and the geth had some malfunctions as Reaper code and/or hardware shut down along with the actual Reapers, but that would be a repairable issue, not a death sentence. And with Tali onboard the Normandy and the quarians allied with the geth, repairs would be carried out in no time.
"sour yellow note" always reminded me of how Harbinger, leader of the reapers, has yellow eyes, and is the only reaper associated with the color yellow. I assumed the Rachni Queen meant Harbinger, specifically, but didnt have a name for him
It's a reference to a frequency that is known for affecting organic life (in real life, not the game). There is a video about it. The Leviathan used the same technologies the Reapers use on the occasion. It's all a metaphor for something else.
@@ariazuniga7193 I have the same shirt. I have alotta gaming themed graphic Tee's but none get people to stop & talk about it like that one & an Uncle Sam themed one I found that says "The Alliance needs you!!!" and it has Hackett pointing instead of Uncle Sam.
I feel like Shepard waking up on Earth after the destroy ending is the key here. Shep gets to the beam, or near enough to interface with it (Prothean artifacts have never needed you to physically touch them, just be near), and then everything else is a battle in Shep's mind to resist indoctrination and give the neural command to activate the Crucible. Shep doesn't beam up to the Citadel, just interfaces on Earth at the beam itself, and everything we see play out is that process of neural interfacing while trying to resist the reaper influence.
@@macmittens5475 maybe the Reapers built it like that to make us think it looks like a teleporter, a way to make us think it's a convenient way inside the citadel so that they could lure any attacker into a place where they could be easily ambushed. And it is the prefect place for that. It's inside a crater, anyone who gets inside there is like fish in a barrel for reaper forces.
Actually, it was Bailey who saved the galaxy, Shepherd died from the laser hit and Bailey saved the day and lied about it so Shepherd looked better. It's explained in the codex.
With the refusal ending, and the Star Child's voice changing like that. I always took it as a sign of it's frustration. Shepard being the first being in hundreds of thousands of years who could actually do something, bring about a change that even the Star Child couldn't. Only for that being to turn around and be like "nah, I'm cool." At that point I wouldn't blame it for being slightly pissed off. Like being upset about a wasted opportunity.
@@Brother_O4TSat the end of one of my perfectionist playthroughs I shot the catalyst in the head lol. It legit scared me, since I had around 8300 war assets and was ready for the Perfect Ending. Yet I unlocked the worst ending accidentally. Of course I reloaded the game haha
This is the first time I’ve truly listened to the whole indoctrination theory and it’s way better than what we actually got. Playing through legendary edition reminded me just how lackluster the endings actually were, even with the extended cut. Finding out the reapers were trying to indoctrinate you throughout the whole trilogy and knowing your choices would have seen you either resist them or join them would be genius level writing. Shame BioWare didn’t put that level of writing into the real ending.
So then just accept that the endings are bad if that's what you think. You're trying to cope with your opinion of the ending with this ridiculous theory.
Indoctrination theory leaves off with a cliffhanger ending and cliffhangers suck. also if indoctrination theory is true what happens then after Shepard wakes up after the reapers fail to indoctrinate him? I think it would be VERY difficult to then top it off with a better or equivelant interesting and raw ending sequence as the original.
One more interesting thing about IT - whenever there's an indoctrination attempt you see black shadows on the edges of the screen. You can see them when you speak with TIM when he tries to control Shepard and (added in legendary edition iirc) when you speak with reapers. Another thing is whispers - everything that tells you about how indoctrination happens mentions whispers and in me3 you can hear whispers in the TIM dialog and in all dream sequences. Pretty sure there were other examples of both shadows and whispers in the game, but i dont remember them unfortunately. There's one thing about how James hears buzzing when Shepard comes to him. As for how Shepard got indoctrinated - they've been to (and even in): dead reaper, human reaper, giant reaper artefact for 3 days, reaper tech research labs (from some of which they took the tech with them), keeps reaper tech on the normandy (iff), spoke with reapers and obviously fights reapers all the time. Judging by other characters, even one of those things would be enough to corrupt someone with weaker will. One more thing is that in all games idea of controlling the reapers or merging with them is considered as something only indoctrinated being would think and everyone (not just characters, but also how the plot is built) is against it, but suddenly in the ending its the opposite. Too bad IT has a lot of holes though, it'd be cool to have it instead of what bioware came up with and there's not a chance they wanted to make me3 ending a false ending which they'd expand in the next game since they always called it a trilogy and me4 is probably EA forcing them to make another one.
Yeah, I would say that verbatim, the indoctrination theory is not totally correct, but is borne from true observations. Those observations being signs of Shepard clearly being manipulated. I mean, just look at the starchild. Whether it is a dream or real, the only other reason the catalyst would take that form other than manipulation is because”lols Bioware thought it would be cool.”
I think the reason that Indoctrination Theory is so popular is because people simply *want* to believe it. It's just *better* than the writing we eventually got in the game. Could you imagine how mind blowing it would've been, if players who picked synthesis or control got the endings and roll credits as normal, but players who picked destroy and made the right choices throughout the 3 games got this epic Christopher Nolan-esque scene where all the pieces of Indoctrination attempts fall into place, and then Shepard actually wakes back up at the base of the beam to go on and defeat the Reapers in the REAL ending of the game? Not only would it have been genius writing, it would have been incredibly bold and a statement on not just indoctrinating Shepherd, but indoctrinating the *player* and making the *player* believe "I am in control, and I can shape this world and this story to my will," but in reality you can't. It would have been an incredible deconstruction of the purpose, value, and - most importantly - *illusion* of choice in a "choice based" video game. The indoctrination theory is so appealing because it pulls on those threads of genius that were almost there, and I think people see the potential that could be there.
What if they misunderstood what the beam did and it only sent your consciousness up to the citadel, not your actual body? So it was a dream, but the dream acted as a way for his mind to make sense of its interaction with the catalyst in digital space?
Interesting idea. That would make sense, because we know that Reapers can send their 'consciousness' out (Harbinger controlling the Collector). I like it!
I think that could have made for a better outcome. I've read many other comments with similar sentiments. It would have been nice to see the ending be a battle of wits between harbinger and Shepard. Shepard winning or losing an argument based on his past decisions throughout the games. But unfortunately BioWare has already disproved indoctrination theory.
I always loved this theory, it turns the confusing and stupid ending into an actual final battle with the most terrifying power of the reapers: Indoctrination Through the series, you see people, good and bad, do horrible things under the effects o indoctrination.Its something that eats away at your mind slowly warping your thoughts until you reach the conclusion that serving the reapers is the only option. Its finnicky, because minds are very different between individuals. Strong willed people that could feel indoctrination taking place and even resist it required a violent exertion of control (like what happened to matriarch Benezia) meanwhile, smarter people were subverted through weaknesses in their egos. Saren was so terrified by the reapers that Sovereign took advantage of his fear to manipulate him into thinking the only way to survive was being usefull to the Reapers. The Illusive man wanted to lead humanity to greatness, he saw the Reapers as a threat, but he allowed himself to be tempted by their potential. They made him think he could control them, use them for the greater good of humanity, and blinded him to how he was becoming their puppet. And lastly, Shepard. But Shepard would never bend the knee. He had seen the truth of the Reapers. No argument could convince him. He wasnt afraid and he was aware of what happened to those who attempted to control the reapers. But Shepard does have a weakness. If you make Shepard think its his choice, he will choose. Throughout the series, one truth remains constant, Shepard´s decisions shape the galaxy. Let him think he is the one choosing what happens to the whole galaxy. Trick him into thinking he is in control of his destiny one last time. Make him fear the consequences of his choice. and give him several options. In reality, you are not choosing anything, you are fighting the Reaper´s whisper in you ears. You are the most important person in the galaxy, all your choices matter, only you can bear this burden, only you can make this sacrifice. Once again indoctrination strikes at a weakness, responsibility and self importance built over 3 games and dozens of hours. And the player must see through this (or atleast be stubborn enough) to resist indoctrination and save Shepard. Best part is it makes your fleet force actually important by determining wether the reapers are defeated or not through that and not your choice. Its not one person that matters, its everyone coming together. And if you do it right, you might live to see it through to the end. Hope BioWare likes the theory enough to make it canon. They deserve another Andromeda flop if they insist with the surface level ending. Specially when you stop to consider how different all those endings are. Oh and one last clue you missed: "you yourself are part synthetic" weird that the one ending that explicitly states you are killing yourself with no living on in some sense is the one in which you survive.
Well put. This is exactly why I still love the Indoctrination Theory, no matter what Bioware decides to bring to the table for ME4. I will only add one thing! Beyond the surface level of TIM and Saren being representations of the Control and Synthesis endings, there is something deeply troubling about both of these options. The lack of free will for the rest of the galaxy. One could argue that it's been true for other choices in the Trilogy (for example the Genophage resolution being entirely in the player's hands), but it goes deeper. The Control option... Even if we were to take the ending at face value, that would mean that Shepard becomes a freaking God. Shepard, or rather whatever they became, could wipe civilizations off the face of the universe. Their will would be law, and that's that. That always went against what I was fighting for, as a player. Feeding the galaxy this false sense of freedom, this lie, never sat right by me. The Synthesis option... At face value, it absolutely is the most tempting one. If we're to believe Star Child, we wouldn't have to sacrifice anyone but Shepard for this happy ending. The hard-fought Geth alliance? Intact! EDI? Alive and free to live her best life and smooch a now probably very sturdy Joker. But as Shepard says if the player chooses to argue against it, the synthesis option means forcing a whole new way of existing on the entire galaxy. And we see in the cutscene that even HUSKS stop fighting, stumbling back in confusion, as they've been given- what? Their memories back? Regained control on their monstrous body? Or is the original person still dead and they're... someone new? The brutes, the banshees, all of them would become- alive, trapped in this weird body... Even Maraudeur Shield, lol. We don't know if they'd remember anything at all of the horror that went down. It might be fine, but at the very least we can say it's not as easy of a choice (or risk free) as it seems. Now sure, at face value the Destroy option has you sacrificing a lot of allies (that is, assuming the Star Child isn't lying), but that is a risk people are aware of, and in the case of your teammates they are ready to make that sacrifice. The Destroy ending honors their choice.
FYI the Normandy does have Reaper tech onboard - the Reaper IFF from the end of ME2. This also lends credence to why Harbinger doesn't attack the Normandy when it swoops in to save your squad before Shepard goes up the beam.
That could make sense. Only thing is that the IFF only produces a signal, I believe Harbonger would notice the ship right in front but we dont know how reapers visualize their surroundings
I mean okay, but why do Reapers attack you in the map screen then if the IFF is supposed to play a role? I suppose you could think that Harbinger was preoccupied and didn't think to check if Normandy was actually friend or foe but that's definitely lazy.
@@8xottox8when pinging to locate, this is a direct signal that likely is different from what the reapers recognize. I honestly think the IFFs only role was to allow them to actually use the Omega 4 relay. Other than that, it should have no use to the normandy, because normandy is a stealth ship that does not give off any signals when the ship is in space… unless it deliberately emits a signal.
@@8xottox8 only other reason I would say harbinger does not attack Normandy is because he does not want to kill Shepard. The explosion of the Normandy at the range has a very percent chance of killing Shepard
Lmfao that's not how the IFF works. It's only meant for Reapers to not find the Normandy out in space. They can literally find you when you put out signal Harbinger can fucking see the Normandy LOL.
@@Bigpep69420 Well in my play throughs, you always got to have a shootout in the CIC of my ship & it wasn't even your birthday lol. Wrex & Grunt are my favorite characters. "Officer, this Krogan is part of a Spectre task force. Operation Fire Cobra Claw." LMAO. "So how were those noodles?" "Alil spicy" "I love you Grunt." "Heh heh heh." Lol. Classic.
I got completely indoctrinated myself in my first ME3 playthrough, since I totally bought this utopia that the Catalyst was describing to Shepard with the Synthesis ending... without even realizing the obvious, that it was exactly what Saren was trying to do in ME1, and Shepard was condemning Saren's goal back then. I think we all like the Indoctrination Theory despite its obvious flaws, because we fans love the series so much that we need this headcanon to make the ending suck a little less. Which, as you described, makes the Citadel DLC an even better conclusion to the series. - It's been a good ride. - The best.
I never even thought about Saren. It always felt gross to me just because it'll be literally changing every being in the galaxy, down to their very DNA, without ever consulting anyone else about it. Maybe other players feel differently, but my Shepards never feel they can take that decision away from all of these people like that. Realizing it was just Saren's idea that failed only solidifies my opinion
I always saw the 3 endings as representative of other people you've met. Blue is TIM, since he wanted to try and play god and control the other species in the galaxy. Green is Saren, since he wanted to turn everyone into a sythetic/organic hybrid. Red was Sovereign as you destroy the reapers, mirroring what they do to the organics every cycle. At the end you basically pick which villain you agreed with, but pertaining to the reapers instead of humanity.
@@YarblocosifiliticoHow? Destroy fanboys will create every possible nonsense about the other endings. There is no hivemind in synthesis ending XDXDXDXDXD.
28:15 The easy explanation (for me at least!) is that Anderson made it to the beam and inside, and what Shepard is experiencing is a trippy view through the eyes of the Starchild/Catalyst as it tries to take his mind completely. He is engaged in a mental battle. If he accepts indoctrination, it wins and Anderson cannot make the Crucible fire (and he imagines utopian endings). If he fights it, he holds the Starchild/Catalyst back long enough for Anderson to activate the Crucible, which destroys the Reapers (and the ending is true). His role is just as important, but in a scenario where there are enough war assets for a search party to find him in the London rubble, he therefore survives. It makes sense to me.
But why would the Catalyst even waste his time on breaking Shepard's mind? He was barely alive, lying in dirt and unable to move, and posed absolutely no threat to Reapers. Whereas Anderson is supposedly making his way to activate the Crucible and destroy every one of them! Wouldn't it be smarter to indocrinate Andeson then?
@@vermosh They’ve been obsessed with Shepard since he took out Sovereign. The whole reason they went after humans and made a human reaper in 2 was down to this. Also the reason Leviathan though this cycle had the potential to finally be different. Shepard is uniting the galaxy as no one did before, because in previous cycles everyone was conquered (last one, it was by the Protheans) and therefore didn’t have the range of resources and expertise to finish the Crucible. Winning Shepard would have remained the top goal as it represents victory.
@@marsmartin all Reapers are connected in a network, controlled by the most advanced AI ever existed. Its computing power is impossible to imagine. That is why i don't believe Reapers can be obsessed with anything. They act rationally, as rationally as it is possible. And, in the end, it is not that hard to figure out the priority threat between Anderson and Shepard. Indocrinating Shepard would be really cool, it would turn the gallaxy's best guardian against it and definitely weaken the morale. But surely that can wait a bit, first take care of an imminent threat, then think about future campaign.
@@vermosh Reapers aren't all seeing so as long as Anderson went unnoticed then they would stay focused on Shepherd and I mean after all it's a game in the story so you can take it anyway you want. But really though to write a good ending it would work
Honestly, this is like a textbook case of "The death of the author", where the author as the final instance of text interpretation is taken out of the equation. Or like a professor of mine once said: It doesn´t matter what the author intended, he wrote what he wrote. It is up to the reader to extrapolate meaning from the text - within reason of course.
There are plenty of undiscovered areas on the citadel. They mentioned in the fist game that they don't know where keepers come from. They don't know where or how they breed. When one dies another keeper show up to take its place. They don't know where on the citadel they come from. ( Anderson inconsistences on the Citadel ) Cool video!
I dont think that writes anything off tho. Why are there more than one master control panels? Why did Anderson end up in a different spot after going through the same beam?
@@Crizzly122 its a holodisplay so it could be any where. Plus the reapers/keeps would want to have private access to the master control panel. Considering the reapers made the citadel it makes sense they made secret areas. the reapers made the mass relays to make it easier to harvest life. Secret areas would make the harvest easier for them. The beam could have a sorting feature? (this feels like a stretch tbh). Like Anderson said his location looked my like the collector base. Perhaps for living people to get turned to goo. Shepard gets the dead body room cause they are almost dead?
@@Crizzly122 your assumption is that the "master control panel" that the counsel knows about is the real Master control panel. Its Reaper Tek designed to speed up the development process of civilizations. Obviously they would want something that could control the most basic funtions of the Citadel well hidding away the real one that controlled all the additional functions of the Citadel. You dont want someone to accidentally find out all your secrets after all.
Also you mentioned a growling reflecting a failed indoctrination attempt (re: Grayson) - you do hear a Reaper growl during the scene with the boy in the vent, when Anderson interrupts. I see other people have mentioned the Reaper IFF, the various artifacts and code you bring to people, the husk head just chilling in your cabin and all the time you spend on or around derelict Reapers, alive Reapers, and Reaper-adjacent minions, so I won't mention those...save for the fact that James also comments on there being a weird hum in the cargo bay in his ambient dialogue, if you talk to him. One of the main symptoms of indoctrination from the codex is the presence of weird humming, whispers and eventually voices in your head.
Well the indoctrination process is described as being a combined assault of grating sounds and hormone manipulation with the purpose of breaking down the victim's will so they become easily suggestable by the reapers. The process can easily destroy the mind of the victim depending on how fast it's done. If indoctrination theory were true there would probably be something like a flashbang ringing effect playing as Shepard runs to the beam.
Thank you for pointing out James' line, if it was just about the drive core, he wouldn't add "Is that just me?" I don't believe indoctrination theory in full but there is something fishy happening in this game and the whole last 15 minutes literally feel like from another game, like written by another team, like a sentence cut in half. I get they were probably rushed with the last game but the ending of the trilogy is something you should definitely put the most focus on and I refuse to believe they didn't think of all the implications any crrative choices would have
The queen described her interpretation as a sour yellow note because sound is the main way her species perceives things, it could easily translate to the growling sound we hear as shepard. Reminds me of Synesthesia.
In my headcannon I like to think that the whole sequence isn't completely in Shepards head but Shepard is still seeing illusions. What's happening is still happening but a lot of the inconsistencies and strange occurrences can still be chalked up to be hallucinations. What's going on is still actually going on but Shepard is still fighting the indoctrination at the same time. I like this theory because it makes you think about what is real and what isn't.
exactly, was coming to make this comment. Also with the dreams its just not Oily Shadows, indoc people also hear whispers, which shep does in the dreams, and once TIM shows up(as well as oily shadows). He never heard those whispers or seen shadows around other indoc'd people before. My theory is they were planning on the indoctrination being used in some way for the ending, but EA didn't like the idea and made them change it. Everyone who says they never was any indoctrination, is just spilling company lines and not burning bridges because of how bad the ending came out to be.
@@Brian-my7hn I don’t think EA was meddling in their studios that closely back then. What I think happened was that the game needed an extra 6 months- 1 year to finish fleshing it out but EA didn’t give them the go ahead to do so. They needed time but they ran out, and supposedly just a few months before release their original ending had to be scrapped because it leaked.
17:00 as a note "There are no Reaper artifacts on the Normandy." EDI makes note that you are still running a Reaper IFF... so there is one piece of Reaper tech on board...
@@Aurelius-bf3yx is it the only Reaper tech on board tho? I mean, nobody ever questions the Lazarus project, as if resurrecting someone is just a question of how much money you have to spend to do it, but I let's be real here, the only ones who can reanimate corpses in ME universe are the Reapers.
@@Aurelius-bf3yx I always had the theory that the catalyst never wanted to indoctrinate Shepard even if it had the chance. If we assume that it's not lying at the end than neither the catalyst nor the reapers were ever really hostile against organic creatures. They were created to actually save organic life but their solution is just very bad. The catalyst is even kind of acknowledging that when it says that their solution doesn't work anymore. So it let Shepard, basically the avatar of that circle, trough to talk and see if they can't figure out something different. And why Shepard? Because he/she is different and has a very strong mind, that becomes clear at several points in the story. Being able to withstand Morinth, surviving the Prothean beacon...
Yup and honestly no one knows what they packed into Shepard when she was dead. Miranda makes even a few mentions of controlling chips and that they totally didn't install them, unprompted and like... It's weird. Also, sometimes James says "Do you hear that hum? Is that just me?" and it drives me insane that we cannot interact more with it since Reapers often use sound to indoctrinate
23:30 Very few ppl talk about this, when you ask the Catalyst about the destroy choice we see Anderson actualy shooting the tank. To me this scene is either an indicator that Anderson actualy made it to the Citidel instead of Shepard (And Shepard unconsciously somehow knows about it), or a vision of Shepard thinking thats what Anderson would have done.
Hmmmm...that's a good observation. I've seen some other people saying that they think the final moments were Sheps attempts at a neural interface and opening the arms. Then the reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shep during their neural interface. Some believe the beam was not a teleporter but some neural interface. Combine that with your observation of Anderson being the one who ACTUALLY pulls the trigger on destroy and it paints a pretty compelling picture. The only thing I don't like about it is that Anderson kinda steals Sheps thunder. Realistically it doesn't matter, do what you gotta do. But narratively it's a bit wack (much like the original endings).
@@alberyy Remember Leviathan? How they were able to make Shepard see things and jump scenes while they were trying to control him? If you think about it, the space child convinces Shepard to commit suicide by touching the power cables or directly jumping into the beam.
I've always thought that maybe Shepard was dreaming that entire last conversation with Anderson and being there with him -- Anderson's comms are on and he calls out to Shepard, who is unconscious, but he keeps talking because there is nobody else with him. Everything that happens to Anderson is a fabrication of Shepard's mind as a result of what he's hearing while being knocked out. The very last conversation, a lot of Anderson's lines sound like they could be him talking to himself - Of course, other than the ones calling Shepard a great mother/father at which point the theory kind of falls apart but I still think it could work. Otherwise there is absolutely no way Shepard would've survived in ANY of the endings, even in High EMS Destroy - What, he's just gonna fall down to Earth and somehow live through it?
@@genericrandomness3455It would be poetic to be honest. Anderson almost became the first Specter but got character assassinated, so Shepard became one instead. Anderson coming to save the day while Shepard was auto of commission to do the right thing when no else can would have been a cherry on top.
I think Anderson actually made it to the citadel and was talking to Shepard to try and figure out how to work the system. Shepard is clearly struggling with indoctrination and if you choose destroy, Anderson actually fulfills the mission. We never see Anderson's body but we do see Shepard wake up at the end of the destroy ending.
@@JankyDice96 the worst thing about this is that they could fix this plot holes in the Legendary Edition, but they didn't bother and chose lazy route. This was their chance to fix ME3 endings that our choices would really matter in the end (not just collecting points in warr assets), plot holes and other ME3 flaws like terrible journal, frustating space exploration etc. That really make me concern about ME4, I hope they will give theif best, beacuse antoher flop will surely result in EA closing Bioware and putting their workers in other profitable titles. In that case, we will never see another ME ever again, but I hope it won't happen.
@@michu3763 their "positive surprise" on how well LE sold out is concerning... I don't think they are investing a lot of time and money in next ME because of this and how andromeda flopped. Sad.
The dreams aren't new attempts to indoctrinate Shepard, they're his previous contacts with the Reapers taking increasing hold in his mind as he has more and more contact with them outside the Normandy.
Saren was literally in a reaper for at a minimum of a few weeks but more likely over a month and can break the reapers hold due to a conversation shepherd has been actively trying to destroy the reapers since mass effect.
Anderson did it. Anderson actually got into the Citadel by himself and stopped the Reapers. Shepard never got on board. I like this theory, just finished the ME Legacy playthrough and I'd love for them to do something like that.
We do see him briefly, shooting that thing in the Destroy ending and I never got why. I thought Shepard was like "hey, that's something he'd do". But now I think that's actually what really happens. It's just the fact that Bioware never intended this to be the case and it makes the ending shittier and shittier the more we analyze 💀
@@nicolasfonts3194 I forgot I've even left this comment 😂 the "Anderson did it" explanation would be so cool now that I think about it. Everyone worships Shepard so hard it's easy to forget about MFs like Anderson or Bailey. Like smh Bailey is willing to cover for Shepard even when he fucks up hard, like with Wrex in ME3. The real unsung heroes of the trilogy ✌
When the Starchild is talking about the Destroy option you can see Anderson shooting, maybe that's just meant to show what Anderson would have done in your place, but what if that's what acually happend? What if the one who died saving the galaxy was Anderson and the Reapers were trying to indectrinate Shepard to stop him? Pardon my english.
I always thought the purplish armor was the under armor/ body glove that allows it to be completely sealed along with hard points for the over plates. As far as the control panel goes. It is mentioned that there are areas that only the keepers can go to so an entire sub control station (like an engineering bridge on some star ship designs) would make a lot of sense.
At the start of Mass Effect 3 when we see the child, Shepard is staring at him from a distant window, so I think the idea that only Shepard sees him still stands. The soldier hits the door when it is closed not when the kid climbs in which I think is an important difference. I also thought there was at least a strong similarity between the child and the catalyst hologram!
Yeah I agree, the camera introduces us to the child and then pans to Shep who has been watching them. They child also talks very weirdly. When Shep says they can save the child the child responds by saying they can't go with Shepherd. Why? Why couldn't they go with them?
Just one correction, Dan: when you use the Rachni investigation in Bryson lab, it is one of the filters that does NOT help locate the Leviathans’ planet, so there was no correlation between Rachni and Leviathans, which means they were likely indoctrinated by Reapers.
I’d also point out the Rina or Rila Theo... whatever. The asari. She very well could’ve been following the Reapers’ will the whole trilogy. Helping the Krogan repopulate to help cause more chaos in either situation she was in.
I don't know. The only time in the DLC that we used the Rachni information it is to find that Doctor. That rachni data did not help us find him. It is still possible that Leviathans controlled the Rachni. It is never disproven. It just the Rachni data as EDI says is irrelevant to finding the Doctor.
Ref Specs I mean, no piece of evidence links the Rachni to the Leviathans, despite extensive research by Bryson. So while the Leviathan’s indoctrinating the Rachni is technically never fully disproven, it has zero evidence and makes absolutely no sense if the Leviathans are trying to remain hidden. The Rachni info in the lab would at least guide you to the artifact Bryson’s daughter was analyzing (or anywhere related to the Leviathans, in fact), but didn’t even do that.
I really hope it doesn't force any choices too be canon too I wanna see how Rannoch is doing now that the Geth and Quarians are working together and I wanna see how the Krogan handled being rid of the genophage (with Wrex in power, Wreav being in power does not bode well)
@@deanmccrorie3461 Asari barley age, just look at Aria, and Liara always had wrinkles if you look close enough on her face especially in 3 were it's more apparent.
@@Crizzly122 I hope so too. It just seems stupid to release LE and possibly allow us to import our saves but then retcon it anyways because it doesn't fit the story they want. The ending is the only part most will tolerate. Like if my Male Shep did indeed survive. I wanna know that he and Kaidan settled down together and raised a family.
The reason why Control and Synthesis both seem like incredibly bad options despite star child insisting they're fine is that we've seen both set up consistently throughout the series. We KNOW both of those Reaper-related options. Control is being indoctrinated, and Synthesis is being made into a husk at best and part of a reaper at worst. The last choice really does feel like an appeal to Shepard's ego in order to trick him into making a bad choice, just like Saren and the Illusive Man were, and like the vampire tries to do to Shepard in Mass Effect 2. I'm pretty sure indoctrination theory isn't what the game makers were going for, which is why it doesn't connect all the dots. But it almost feels like it SHOULD have been.
it really should. From the first game onward, Indoctrination is built up as The Reapers' most dangerous weapon, and it's repeatedly harped on as subtle but inexorable, and an inevitable consequence of too much exposure to the Reapers or any of their artifacts. Shepard, meanwhile, repeatedly proves him/herself the champion of humanity and the free thinking galaxy, the cornerstone of resistance to the Reaper agenda. It just makes too much sense that A) Shepard's repeated battles with the Reapers has carried it's own exposure risk, B) given what we're told repeatedly of Reaper tactics, they would at least attempt to indoctrinate Shepard both as general policy and as a specific reaction to how much of a nemesis he's been to them, C) so of course in the final installment of the trilogy, one would expect that all to build to a Shepard vs Indoctrination final fight. The Reapers' best weapon vs galactic civilization's best weapon. Give us the big title bout you've been selling and hyping all this way. Denouement. Now, who knows what actually happened in BioWare's writing room as staff moves from project to project or even comes or goes from the company itself, or what changes time and budget factors forced them to make along the way. But, given how the first two games are full of signposts that seem to point in this direction, it's little surprise that the audience would expect this factor to be there in the final equation, to want to see it present, to assume Mass Effect's development meant to put it there, and ultimately insist via fan-theory that it is there despite developer protestation that it isn't.
@@JohnDoe-vy6ju it's funny, Illusive man gets fully indoctrinated while we're destroying the collector's base (during final battle) - which's why he begs to keep the place's "tech" - "we can wipe all of them and keep the tech intact" - meaning "wipe all organic life while keeping the reaper alive" - ME3, on the other hand, let's just say, the writers in charge were very incompetent and probably destroyed the continuity of the arc on purpose (very common move from untalented creatives - to undermine others' work to cater to their vanity)
15:20 i don't know if this helps give context, but when you're hitting the Cerberus HQ, you can find video logs of a surgeon begging TIM not to go through with some "procedure" and him insisting on it, without anesthesia. it's implied that he had some sort of surgery with the data the collected on Horizon to make him more powerful. this video was so incredibly well made!! congrats BIG DAAAN :D
@@davidleejones3312 I think it was more about trying to destroy the research because he stumbled into the idea of disrupting and taking control of indocrinated beings.
He DID take this into account, but his reasoning for it not making sense was because Saren didn't have any of these abilities himself when directly enhanced by a reaper.
Re: the boy, the camera isn't showing us, it pans back to the window and shows Shepard watching from there. And it's not just the soldiers who ignore the boy, there are civilians on that evac shuttle, mere feet away. They stand and do nothing as the boy struggles to get in delaying their departure (assuming he's real and the soldiers are waiting on him). It's not that the soldiers don't help, it's that *nobody* helps. Because the boy is fake.
In the ME4 trailer, Liara recovers the N7 symbol from a snowy planet that is obviously not Earth (based on the sky), which makes me think that the scene in the trailer is showing Liara's search for Shepard's body after the destruction of the Normandy SR1. We know from ME2 that she was the one who found Shepard's body, and we know that the final resting place of the Normandy SR1 was a snowy/icy planet, much like the one we see in the trailer. It also makes no sense that she'd be searching for Shepard on an alien planet after the events of ME3, because if Shepard's body was still even recoverable after ME3, it would either be on the remnants of the Citadel/Crucible, in orbit above Earth, or somewhere on Earth itself. The "Shepard lives" scene also appears to be in a ruined city (presumably London?) and definitely not a snowy alien planet. What they're trying to tell us exactly with the trailer I don't know, but I know the only way the trailer makes canonical sense is if it takes place between ME1 and ME2. So either there are serious canonical errors in the trailer, or the scene depicted isn't taking place when most people think it's taking place. I really like the indoctrination theory, but it's obvious they never fully fleshed it out as a true possibility, and because of that, they would need to retcon quite a few things in order to make it work, which, I'll be honest, I don't think they're gutsy enough to do.
About 600yrs have passed. Liara has been confirmed to be older in the trailer. So she's in her matriarch stage. I don't think she'd be looking for shep so far in to the future. Liara would have already found shep.
Why does everyone think N7 meant that it's Shepard's body on that planet? There are plenty of N7 rank soldiers in the Alliance. Drawing a correlation to Shepard would be nice, but not necessarily true. Heck if 600 years has already passed, it could even mean that's Alec Ryder's suit on Andromeda, provided if they can retcon how Liara (and a dead Reaper) get there in the first place.
Sorry bud but you missed some really glaring evidence in the trailer that completely destroys your idea that the scene was set between ME1 and ME2, which is the giant dead Reaper in the background as she is climbing up the snowy hill...... There cannot be a dead Reaper there if its set between ME1 and ME2. Its clearly post ME3 and the Reapers have been destroyed. I also don't think its London though, fyi. The planet is wrong. Furthermore, its established in the canon that the Shadowbroker recovered Shepard's body and was selling him/her to the Collectors. Miranda and Liara worked together to stop this and steal Shepard's body back, Liara then let Cerberus have it on the promise they would try to bring Shep back. My theory on the trailer is that it is infact many 100's of years after ME3 and that Liara is not actually going to be a big part of the story, she'll be a shadowy figure, almost a myth in the Galaxy at this point. She is collecting stuff like that N7 armor out of nostalgic purposes, she does collect things like that, her apartment had Prothean artifacts, and artwork of Ilos etc. It would make sense that she would make a museum for Shep. Perhaps the players character will need to try to find her for some reason, which then kicks off a larger plot as she exposition dumps for you.
I think it's clear that the writers of the original game clearly meant for the Indoctrination Theory to be part of the main plot of the series (there is a ton of information about it in the original game because of the main antagonist's transformation and Shepherd's initial exposure to the first beacon, which is where his indoctrination started) and it was lost along the way as they couldn't decide how to actually end the final game.
A big part of this is the lack of drew Karp in me3, it's why alot of the plots for 2 weren't in 3, the ending would have been better if he was part of the main writing team.
I agree 100%. Saren's role in the story is showing how such a incredible decorated loyal skilled warrior can fall to Indoctrination. It was the main focal point of the 1st game and is not just a side plot. Saren's shadow is cast over the entire series in Shepard's mind and fate.
@@musaran2 This is a good point. Do we know what tech Cerberus used to "reanimate" Shepard? It must've been some advanced technology, possibly Reaper. Him being able to subtly indoctrinate unconsciously to gain near god-like levels of persuasion and leadership is interesting.
I've always seen indoctrination theory as quite good. It also works well to explain the ending, so long as you change one key part of the theory. My alteration goes like this: -Shepard is NOT dreaming after getting hit by Harbinger. -He survives the blast, barely, and makes it to the citadel. -Once at the Citadel, he has his conversation with the Illusive Man. Anderson, however, is only in his mind, a symbol of his resistance to the Reapers. -After the scene plays out, he goes to the console and opens the Citadel's arms. -The Crucible docks, and Hackett sends the message to Shepard that it isn't firing, telling him it must be something that Shepard must do on his end. -THIS is where things begin to happen entirely in Shepard's head. -Just as the Illusive man wanted to save Earth, but couldn't bring himself to open the Citadel's arms, Shepard hesitates at the control console. -In his mind, the sequence with the Starchild plays out, as the Reapers press in on his mind, trying to confuse Shepard and steer him away from his goal - Destroying the Reapers. -In the Control Ending or the Synthesis Ending, we can assume that things "apparently" work out okay, until we remember that societies dependent on the Reapers always die when the Reapers return to dark space. They are certainly patient enough to feign cooperation or subservience for a few centuries until nobody can live without them. Makes conquering the galaxy easy for them. In Control, I imagine Shepard's mind would still be slowly getting eroded by the Reapers, even as he seemingly controlled them. -In the Refusal Ending, Shepard lashes out in rage and confusion, breaking the console and destroying any hope of firing the Crucible. -Finally, in the Destroy ending, he stays focused on his 3-game-long mission, ignores those voices in his mind that whisper of alternate solutions, and does the one thing that he knows for certain will end the reaper threat. He blinks away the fog of indoctrination and uses the console to activate the Crucible for its intended purpose: ending the war by destroying the Reapers. -So really, the only part that was completely in his mind was the Starchild scene. -The post credits scene of Shepard breathing can be on Earth or the Citadel. I just assume that where he was standing did not blow up, and wherever he is still has atmosphere. That's how I balance the official endings with the Indoctrination Theory.
I like this explanation. It also fits that the "Starchild" (really a hallucinatory manifestation of Indoctrination) would be lying about the "Destroy" ending necessarily killing EDI and the Geth. It always seemed really bizarre that the weapon would necessarily kill *all* synthetics, like a big indiscriminate EMP; and while this may be meta-thinking, that always seemed unnecessarily cruel to the player after how much might be invested in them. But it completely fits that the Reapers might seek to sway Shepherd (at least a Paragon-Shepherd) away from destroying them outright with this very kind of attached cost.
@@Don-ol8ze I really don't get why people are so bothered in destroying synthetics. sure, some may have achieved consciousness but we're talking about the fate of the organics here, technology can be remade, replicated even. that's why Synthesis and Control doesn't sit well with me one bit. because overpopulation is going to be a huge problem with Synthesis and Control just feels like Shepard is just "giving in" to the Reapers.
@@Don-ol8ze my opinion is that the starchild was not completely wrong about the total synthetic annihilation. The Crucible was intended to get rid of anything that's connected to the Reapers, probably including their tech (the Citadel, mass relays, etc.); and given the fact that EDI and the Geth bear traces of Reaper tech in them, they should be destroyed as well (even tho these traces exist only on software level). But if there is any other tech that isn't based on Reapers, it should remain unaffected. We still don't know if Shepard's implants are made with the same Reaper-like tech; if it's true, then in case of red ending our commander must have been dead or really badly damaged at very least.
Hey Big Dan, also don't forget that as soon as the Shepard, Anderson, TIM conversation starts, you hear endless whispering start immediately and only stop once TIM is dealt with. "Look at the power they wield. Look at what they can do!" Is when the whispers are loudest and the oily tentacles are most on the screen. In addition to "they" being the Reapers that whole moment is more sinister than it seems.
I think that the indoctrination theory sound so appealing is because it offers an explanation to the infamous dream sequences present in the game. Normally they are never properly addressed by shepard or the story itself. I guess it was a cool way for the developer to show how much stress shepard was experiencing, which makes sense, but this plot thread never lead to anything, there is no huge payoff like shepard making a mistake due to seeing the child or something like that. You can remove these sequences from the game and nothing would change
-Bodies at the beam, because that’s where Reapers were transporting them to the citadel. Which is why the beam was even there to begin with. -Sour Yellow note could be the Reaper Horn, heard throughout the game and is present in Shepard’s dreams. -Seeing the boy playing with the ship at the start of the game, is still being viewed by Shepard. Just not strictly from his POV. He sees the boy from his window.
When the boy runs to the shuttle, there are some adults getting in before him and the cutscene makes a point of showing other people helping them to the shuttle. When boy gets there, they just stand there
19:00 actually some claim that there are hidden sounds in the track that are at pitches you can’t hear but are known to cause feeling of anxiety. There is research to back this being possible in the real world too. It’s a scary and fascinating topic. The sour yellow note may be a sound humans can’t hear but are affected by. A possible example I read about was a “haunted” house that caused those to enter to hallucinate nightmares and experience some eye pain. Decades later it was discovered that an old fan system had a grinding frequency that resonated with certain parts of the eye. Upon disabling the fan the were no more reports of hauntings. Can’t remember where this was however. If this gets a bunch of replies asking I’ll put more effort to find it.
Yeah I didn't like his dismissal of the Rachni queen evidence because we don't get a blatant "sour yellow note" Umm human do not communicate like Rachni. We can't even really comprehend how they communicate and the Queen can't even really put into words an explanation that Shepard understands. Of course to me I thought the sour yellow note was the big loud horn sound that reapers make. Not a very subtle way to get in people heads but it may do that. If a reaper lands on a planet and blares that noise on the surface Humans (as an example) Might just be in pain from the loud noise....but tied to that loud noise is a subliminal sound.
@@xtremejay2000 then why factor anything about her description of indoctrination, a description that already is suspect because it was the Leviathan that were indoctrinating them and we don't know how different that is to Reaper indoctrination. So her description should be thrown out as it only applies to the Rachni and possibly only to being controlled by Leviathan
@@Aurelius-bf3yx i get what you are trying to say but there is no lore that says the leviathan indoctrinated the rachni. That one doc in the dlc theorizes that but then something else in that dlc contradicts it. I don't remember all the details but someone else in the comments this video explained in detail that that character was wrong about the leviathan theory.
@@xtremejay2000 I’d also like to point out that Harbinger is the only reaper with yellow eyes. No other reaper has them. And it’s not bright sunny yellow either. It’s an old colored yellow that looks ancient, like sour mustard.
My own indoctrination theory is not so much about Shepard, but the player themselves. I'd wager that the vast majority of people on their first playthrough of ME3, got the same empty feeling in their gut as I did, when they got confused at what was happening and selected the blue (control) paragon path where Shepard didn't make it. It wasn't until my second playthrough-this time as a renegade, that I realized the red renegade choice was the real best ending, and that I had been "conditioned" to believe the blue choice was the safe/best ending. The game messed with my head and in a moment of confusion, I chose wrong. The entire trilogy is about destroying the reapers, and the player -not Shepard, is tricked (indoctrinated) into making the wrong choice at the most critical time. I don't know if the devs continue to try and keep this a mystery, so as to prevent it from ruining the "indoctrination" of future first-time players, but it would explain how this amazing series could have such a bizarre ending... an ending that tries to literally think "outside the box" (or in this case, outside the game itself), while leaving things open to interpretation - like a true sci-fi. Maybe I'm overthinking things in an attempt to deny that empty gut feeling I mentioned earlier, but this theory of mine hit me the second that Shepard drew breath on the renegade ending, and totally worked for me in the "mind-blown" sort of way. Absolutely love this series.
Destroy ending just feels great even though it only sounds like it has downsides xD I think that getting indoctrinated in the end would have been amazing. I mean, the players called out characters for being clearly indoctrinated and Reapers tricking players into a "safer" choice would have shown their real power. They are massive and powerful but in the end it's their ability to weasel their way into mind of others is what makes they really dangerous - all parts of the trilogy are about it. I was nervous about destroy ending when I first played, but I just couldn't shake off the feeling that I'm being tricked by the Star Child. EDI, Legion and the Geth are the main reason why I hesitated. But then I saw Shepard breathing even though he was "likely to die cause cybernetics" and I was convinced I was right in the end. People can complain about the ending, but everyone has to admit that it caused a lot of dialogue among the community.
In my first playthrough I only had destroy or control, synthesis wasn't even an option I don't know why but it didn't appear until my second playthrough carrying the save data. I chose destroy as my first ending even though I didn't get the perfect destroy until I repeated the game again with max war assets, still, I'm glad I wasn't indoctrinated as a player!
The "green" and "blue" endings (Synthesis and Control) are quite literally solutions the indoctrinated franchise villains (Saren and the Illusive Man) were seeking. That's not even some conspiracy or a fan theory, that's a fact. That's should be more than enough never to touch anything other the Destroy ending, even if it's all real and not a dream.
@@giorgialadashvili4771 I agree, it should have been enough to simply select the Destroy option, but I believe it went beyond the reapers just tricking Shepard, or Shepard being indoctrinated - because the player was still the one making the choices. There was something else at play here: the Paragon and Renegade colors that were now present for the first time, within the actual ME universe (not just as part of a color-coded dialog option). The reapers/Illusive man/Saren would have no awareness of these color choices because it wasn't technically part of the ME universe - it was always there strictly for the players themselves to distinguish between what was "good" and "bad". I believe the developers did this to confuse the player specifically - who, up to that point, had been conditioned (or indoctrinated) to see red and think it is the "bad ending" choice.
What about the crucible child appearing as the child in Shepard's memories and dreams? Perhaps it's evidence that Harbinger used something from Shepard's mind to coax him into succumbing
There was no indoctrination, only reused elements that were already developed for the games. Like the only kid model, and like "Ash body" that was already seen in ME2 Collector ship.
@@1vaultdweller Because they had nothing to explain since it was just smokey people figures and whispers that only represented formless third parties in a dream, and that's it. Black silhouettes is a pretty common characteristic of nightmares. What they mean about oily shadows and discordance is what you can see and heard when Shepard was being controlled by illusive man. Besides, even the Catalyst itself mention that it won't work if they controlled Shepard, that mention for some reason the indoctri-theorists tend to forget.
@@hansybarra Wait, that doesnt answer my question at all. Oily shadows were established by the game earlier as an indoctrination symptom. Not just a random dream symptom. Duh And, Catalyst lies. It's obviously there to manipulate Shepard into choosing synthesis, which is basically Reaper's main goal. It's appearance as the kid from dreams is the undeniable fact that Reapers are already in Shepard's mind
Just to point this out, Liara is not on Earth in the ME4 trailer when she finds the N7 helmet visor. At least I don't remember Earth having 3 moons. Not sure what Shepard's visor is doing on whatever planet that is, if it even is Shepard's at all.
@@harlowethrombey7665 I don't think so. It's definitely Liara in the trailer, why would she be looking for mementos of Ryder? I don't think she even knows him. Not personally, at least.
@@Handelo She does know Ryder. There are voice logs in the Andromeda game where she corresponded with him about her Prothean research. I’m not sure if she ever met him personally, but they have at least spoken with one another.
maybe liara finds alecs n7 armor there after a few years since the terraforming device is broken and they want to terraform that planet in the old way (andromeda story) But how did a reaper get there? If the reaper was there (in andromeda) then why is it dead. The anti reaper weapon was only in the milkyway. If it would reach further, then they had no pathfinder ai in andromeda.
I picked this game up over the weekend & I am playing through this series again. I got to the part where Saren shoots himself because he finally realizes he is indoctrinated. Like damn, I really think the Indoctrination theory would have been a brilliant twist on the scale of ME1's twist, if they had done it right. A 'come full circle' type of ending too with a throw back to ME1. Even if unintentional by Bioware, this is still my headcanon! Regarding the 'sour yellow note': Unlike other species, Rachni seem to associate music with people/communicating. In ME1, she mentions the music ending for the asari she's controlling & how most humans are 'colorless'. When I was replaying & heard the 'sour yellow note', it made me think of reaper noises &, in particular, Harbinger and how his thralls eyes always turn yellow when he's 'assuming direct control'. Also, Shep's dreams with those creepy shadowy figures makes me think of the ghostly presences talked about in the Codex for Reaper Indoctrination & 'oily shadows' mentioned by the Rachni queen in ME1. 24:35 And I didn't know the catalyst could sound like that if you refused. Creepy O_o That sounds like Harbinger to me! Also, didn't know that Shepard's eyes start glowing BLUE at the end of Control/Synthesis. Dang. Drives the point home even more for me. Regardless of what Bioware says, what they SHOW is that Shepard is being indoctrinated imo. So I still headcanon that it is an indoctrination attempt once he literally falls unconscious & gets beamed up to Reaper boy & is somehow in space without a helmet.. A final push by Harbinger to manipulate him to pick the other choices as he is firing up the Crucible. It is kinda funny/ironic if someone picks Control when 10 minutes ago you were trying to charm/intimidate the Illusive man not to do it. The Indoctrination codex entry says the "resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions". Also, the Illusive man & Saren of course didn't know they were indoctrinated when making their plans to save the galaxy from the Reapers.. so why would Shepard? And of course, it is the only one where Shep survives, even in the original ending without any extended cut updates/dlc.
Personally, in regards to what would happen after Shepard wakes up in the rubble during the Destroy ending, then the ending would proceed as normal. Shepard makes it to the beam, activates the Crucible, and then we would see the normal Destroy ending from there. Basically it's just a short, out of order clip, that signified Shepard made it. Remember that hours in dreams, are only a few minutes in real time usually. Shepard might've only been unconscious for a minute or two, dreamt the whole star child sequence, then woke up and did it for real.
If it is a dream, it would not be easy to tell. One of the major themes of Mass Effect is mind manipulation. People say it is dream, others say it isn’t a dream. I say we don’t know
@@blaze_unleashed7286 I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that they still have the Reaper IFF on board the Normandy in the third game.
One thing that should be kept in mind regarding the dreams is this: Shepards confrontation with the illusive man, regardless of whether hallucination or real, begins with Shepard and Anderson being manipulated, in which the player can hear a cacophony of Whispers for some time. In Shepards dreams, there are whispers that you cant quite make out when approaching the “oily shadow”. In the second dream in particular, if one waits and does not approach the little boy, the shadows will surround him and whisper incessantly with the same contextual sound as the illusive man encounter. So regardless of the ending being real or fake, something is messing with Shepards mind
A bit of a bonus: one can also hear the sounds of grunting machines roaring in the second dream while the shadows are surrounding the kid. The only other time I hear these sounds is when Javik(who is aware of the reapers manipulative powers) grabs shepard and states: “I since fear and anxiety in you….the reapers are winning.” Winning what? Was he able to determine the outcome of a war by just touching one person…. Or was Javik eluding to something?
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I think Javik says that if you recruit him after Thessia. That’s him sensing Shepard’s fear and anxiety, as he says, due to failing to save a whole planet. The Reapers are also ravaging the entire galaxy and hope is running out, which is what he would mean by “The Reapers are winning.” If Javik sensed that the Reapers were winning in the sense that he was being indoctrinated, he would have either straight up said it, or, more likely, tried to kill him.
@@jshrhrgahhuehtnmppl Javik actually says that when you first speak to him after meeting him on Eden Prime. Its very vague and cryptic, but I think Bioware did that on purpose. The tricky thing is that it would make sense for Javik to just tell him, but this is a game, and if the theme of shepard also being manipulated is actually true, then it would spoil the fun of Bioware messing with us. He might not even be referring to indoctrination when he says it to shepard, he could just mean if you are scared of them then you already lost.
Technically, EDI's AI Core is created from Reaper tech. Or at least one of the videos on Cronos talks about her being created with Reaper Tech. There is actually a throw away line with James Vega that also suggests Indoctrination. The Conduit on the Citadel, as well as a few other pieces of Reaper Tech, have a humming sound to them. At several points, you can talk to Vega in the shuttle bay and he will ask if anyone else can hear that hum, suggesting Reaper Tech exposure. As for the armour being different when he's hit by the Reaper Beam, I just always assumed that was the under padding of the armour, that the rest of it burned off in the hit.
Well, we all know that this theory is a way to cope with the game's failure to deliver due to troubled production. It's a good reading - but the main problem, like any good conspiracy, is that it gives much more credit to the writers and designers than they deserve -_-
I disagree, because this attitude argues that BioWare, a developer famous for well written RPGs, is suddenly not up to the task of providing a well written conclusion to just one game among their otherwise impressive catalogue of titles. It’s like saying BioWare were good writers for 99.999% of the Mass Effect trilogy, but then couldn’t manage the final 0.001%. I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m just saying it gives them too little credit.
@@rowantritton8659 unfortunately, that's pretty much what happened - the troubled development of ME3, and the change in direction in ME2, are well known facts :( It's clear ME3 had a few writing teams that just didn't sync properly and didn't have enough time to polish the story - so they went for the "let's just get it done", without the necessary prolonged back and forth discussion. The inconsistency in dialog, character development and story is very clear all over ME3 - and it's not surprising that the end would suffer most from rushing to release. Biware under EA is not the same Bioware as it was in the past. We've learned that lesson the hard way over the years. :(
@@st2rseeker who was BioWare prior to EA? Sure Baldur’s Gate I & II and KOTOR are great titles, with Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights and Jade Empire being mostly fine (and I never played Shattered Steel or MDK2), but the majority of their best work (and Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood) was still under EA’s banner and it’s clear that when EA are willing to back off and give BioWare longer development cycles that all we’ll get in return are inferior products like Anthem and Andromeda… or SWTOR, which I love.
I think that you leave out some of the key points; Destroy is the ONLY option that has been advocated from the start - throughout the series we are shown the effects of indoctrination. Saren believes that working with the Reapers is an option, the Illusive Man believes controlling them is an option. The Prothean VI on Thesia says that a splinter group fractured their line of battle by advocating for another scenario other than destroy. All these people were clearly indocrinated, and everything other than destroy works towards the Reapers benefit. Leviathan state catagorically that Shepherds victories are more than a product of chance because they're single minded. At no point in the first games and until the end does Shepherd toy with any other option than destroy, and thus they're resisting indoctrination. But no-one can avoid the effects of indoctrination. That is stated clearly also. Shep has been around Reaper tech for years, all of which has the ability to indoctrinate. It stands to reason that Shep will eventually feel the effect of this. That their resolve would be tested. In the end they're under extreme stress. Control and synthesis are both Reaper wins, as is refusal as that is admitting defeat. Destroy represents Sheps will to defeat the Reapers. Not to keep them around, not to control them and not to submit to them. It is the single-minded resolve to finish them off. Indoctrination doesn't appear to work the same with everyone. Some are easy to indoctrinate, while others seem to resist for years. Ultimately indoctrination finds a way through though, and it does this by getting the target to see things the Reaper's way. That doesn't mean agree with the Reapers, that just means see things in a way that benefits the Reapers. The moment the subject surrenders to this they are lost... ...but how do you reflect this in gameplay? Have a simple option where there is clearly a right and wrong answer? That seems to obvious, and is not really a challenge. The only way to simulate indoctrination is to present the player with plausible sounding choices that all deviate from the one option that, from the first game, has been the goal of Shep, the thing that led to success before, the reason why they're a threat and the only outcome that has been shown to be the solution for over 10 hours of gameplay. Destroy. Everything else has been demonstrated to be a death sentence for the races, why would Shep be immune to that fate? They wouldn't. The reason Shep is a threat is that they want to destroy, and destroy is the choice that has gotten you all the way to this point. Wouldn't it be odd that, after spending 100+ hours the game designers placed 3 equally valid options as the solution. 2 of which have been shown to be the goal of indoctrinated people, and the only solution to result in a survive cut scene is the one that sticks to the plan that got Shep through to the end anyway? And only when uniting the whole galaxy, which I also believe to be a measure of indoctrination within the game world. Shep is willing to go to any lengths to defeat the Reapers, and it has been shown that they decapitate the leadership to prevent uniting the galaxy. That means a united galaxy is a threat, and Reapers can be killed. Therefore, Shep attacking the Reapers early can be viewed as a form of indoctrination. They attack before they're ready, due to being so despirate to save Earth. IMO the control option is the giveaway that this is in Sheps mind, the statement that the Illusive Man was right, but he couldn't do it because he was controlled is an obvious clue. Everyone else that Shep has ever met could not control the Reapers because they were indoctrinated, in addition to the countless billions of people in the cycles before Shep, but Shep is special in this regard that he can control them because they have told him that he isn't indoctrinated...remember how Saren thought his mind was his own? In the end I think IDT is the ending that makes the most sense, and it is the one I still choose to believe.
They are also heard in dream sequences. In the second dream, let the shadows surround the little boy and just listen… game over for those that dismiss the idea that Shepard is being manipulated. The whispers sound just like the Illusive mans control sequence. Whether ending was real or a dream doesn’t even matter, the whispers prove Shepard was being manipulated
Not to mention that one can say Shepards reaction after Anderson walks away seems to be one of confusion as he looks down towards the ground and we hear the reaper growl sound a second time. Also, the boy appears at least twice next to some form of a caution sign.
My read was always that everything until Shepard is lifted up to the Star Child is real. That scene is in his head. Choosing Control or Synthesis is giving into indoctrination, but if you choose destroy, Shepard sees herself destroying the whatever it was but in the real world is making it to the panel to activate the catalyst. The whole star child scene was just the reapers reaching out to his mind, and they chose that image of the child because they saw that he represented all the people lost on Earth to her.
@@BuckySeifert Was actually just trying to rile you up as furries often get mad from personal experience through accusations but it failed and backfired on me :D
You forgot to mention that the child survived a building getting super heat and exploding, that is one of the critical parts to the idea that the kid is just a figment of Shepherds imagination.
Yes, the whole building was consumed by the force and impact of a laser, fired from a sovereign class capital ship that is capable of one shotting aliance dreadnaughts. Not to mention that the kid hid in a ventilation duck, which is made of metal….which conducts heat. Honestly, sometimes it seems like naysayers are reaching harder to disprove the theory than those that support it. Kid should be dead. Also he does run through a locked door which I find interesting.
One more thing. It is also intriguing that the reapers attention is placed on wherever the kid is. Why even blow up that building. Thats a bit of reach on my part, but it’s interesting
The Anderson argument easily is the strongest point of the theory. It’s even hard to say it’s a gameplay thing because technically him being there isn’t a big thing that’s needed (although it is nice) it truly doesn’t make any sense at all and really is a immersion break in game
Star-Child voice change when you refuse them seems so blatant too. Also Star-Child was actually voiced by combining Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale voices, almost sounds like they're using Shepard own subconscious to convince themselves. Before they turn on Reaper voice if you shot them in the face.
Imo it's the excellent writing where Saren and Illusive man match the two bad options, that is most convincing. The eyes just reinforce what occurs when Shepard gives in. Those details throw the 'bad writing' dismissal out of the ring. Those little details indicate talent and effort, not laziness. Although I did find the subtitles switching to 'admiral Anderson' all of a sudden to be a very odd detail.
@@pagetvido1850 Indeed. Thats a lot of “whoops we didnt mean to do that “if thats the case. The Illusive man being indoctrinated and Saren as well, and both of these options leading to Shepards eyes, (which are the window to the soul) having the same design is a dead give away that this is a manipulation attempt. Cold hard evidence
Clevernoob’s three part documentary of the Indocrination Theory is a very interesting series to watch if anyone is interested. Just a reminder that it was all made in 2012
Yeah, part of why there's no account in IT of what happens after Shepard wakes up is cause it was largely based on the idea that the "real" ending would be DLC. The documentary was before any postgame DLC, so it couldn't take any of that into account.
I could be wrong but recently on a play through of ME2 I believe I noticed Phoenix armor on a bunch of dead bodies inside the collector ship mission. I’m guessing the piles of bodies could be a reused asset left over from ME2.
@@alessiodaniotti264This is why i think these theories are silly and kinda pointless. People overthinking reused textures. The true ending is what the player wants it to be
@@Mattyjp28 for me the "real" story is the one that the devs means to build... obbiously from the perfect representation of that story and what they manage to build there are flaws due to the machine and time limitatons. But using some details as bases from strange theories when they are clearly tricks to speed up the game development (like reused textures or scenes with default equipment different from our selected one), or related to game mechanics and semplification of the gameplay, is overthinking... expecially when the story itself help to clear who is indoctrinated from various factors (the main ones are the prothean devices that sense it, in particular Vigil on ilos and the prothean IV found on Thessia) The only thing partialy left to the gamer interpretation are the psicological and emotional repercussions on the characters, especially on Shep. But since this is a trilogy where the player must make several choiches with moral implication, this is natural. The dream on ME3 for me are clearly symptoms of some psicological wounds, but the reason behind could be different from a playthrough to another (a full paragon could feal the pain of the losses of friends, a full renegade, expecially one that during the games killed Wrex and/or Mordin, could sense guilt or regret)
There is one more thing towards indoctrination theory... during the mission on Virmire, when you fight Saren for the first time, Shepard hesitates as Saren flies away and the camera does something strange (a little blur and shake thingy). Mind you, that this planet was an indoctrination study facility for Saren and Shepard had some time there. Time spent there was really short, so it feels like stretching it a bit... but it had to start somewhere, right? :)
Lol still remember being utterly convinced of this back when ME3 launched. Good times. Still wild to me how the extended cut somehow made the ending even more weird with that bizarre extraction scene of your squad mates if your EMS is high enough. Literally the most jarring, out of place scene in the entire trilogy IMO. Especially if you bring EDI...
i remember choosing Synthesis before seeing anything online and in that moment as the face melts away i thought "oh i f*cked up. thats a Husk. I chose Be A Husk"
Same!! I initially picked it bc it was supposed to be an option that opened up if our war assets were high enough so it was supposed to be the 'good' choice. Hated it & reloaded & picked Destroy. Fun times lol@@bryanb2886
@@keskes1338 I'm mainly referring to the fact it seems to always get screwed over by EA like you said it needs to get it's shit together but for that you need a development team that actually gives a shit
When Shepard interfaces with the beam, it takes me back to how Shepard was able to mentally process the geth server when he was working with Legion to disable the geth squadron. It was modified to make sense for Shepard to navigate the server. When Shepard made it to the beam, he interfaced with it and that is what happened in his mind to interface with the citadel. That is why he is alive back on Earth with the destroy ending. (Only my take)
The problems with the staffs' dismissal of the Indoctrination Theory are numerous: 1) Various staff have made conflicting reports on who was responsible for the initially released ending, with some alledging that Mac Walters rewrote it in a month following a leak and others (including Mac Walters) having blamed Casey Hudson for deciding what the final product would be. 2) What the ending was originally meant to be is still unclear? With things such as the Extended Cut allegedly being closer to Mac Walters' original vision along with changes reflecting the backlash, then we have Casey Hudson's infamous "It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them" and then we've also seen stuff like the mutated Illusive Man boss battle in the art books and heard of Drew's 'dark energy' ending. 3) Even if none of the writers intended for the peculiarities that the Indoctrination Theory is built from, that wouldn't stop the people actually coding and developing assets for the game from putting them into the finished product. Perhaps they were remnants of an older build that these artists had no interest in tossing away so quickly or perhaps they were added in protest to the revised endings or to 'BioWare Magic' (crunch). Easter Eggs such as this aren't uncommon, although I admit they're rarely this prominantly featured. Because of all this, along with the travesties that were Anthem and Andromeda, I don't think we should rush to just accept anything BioWare have to say regarding Mass Effect 3's ending as fact, they've lied and changed their stories on a number of occasions and were even investigated in multiple countries over the ending from concerns of false advertising. For those interested, various suspect prerelease quotes about Mass Effect 3 and its ending have been compiled here: www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/r9z84/developer_quotes_premass_effect_3_release/
Indeed. It seems to me that no one could agree on how to end Mass Effect 3, and that's we got the mess we did. I think it all comes down to the game collapsing under the weight of it's own ambition. By the end of game 2 there were so many threads and loose ends, that tying everything off in a satisfying and logical way must have seemed a near impossible task, especially given the time constraints placed on BioWare.
Considering BioWare’s most recent reply is to say that wasn’t ever the intention of how the ending should be understood, I’m going to believe them. Considering there’s a Mass Effect sequel in the works, it’s very likely this most recent write off of the indoctrination theory will play into the next game. So that is now the end all be all regardless of speculation otherwise.
Besides the IT simply falls in too well with random bits and pieces they for some reason left in the game, like vanishing anderson on the citadel, piles of bodies popping into existance near the beam, keeper on the citadel taking coats's helmet off. Too many of those things that can't be explained as lazy writing or Bioware not being "smart enough". They were already pressed for time, so why the hell add those extra unnecessary things to the ending if they didn't at least imply that shepard may not be really seeing what he's seeing.
I've always thought it was interesting that you go almost 3 whole games trying to whatever it takes to destroy the Reapers. Then in the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 people are like maybe we can control them, or worse maybe we can all get along.
Because the game never gave you just one choice the goal from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 3 was to figure out a way to stop the Reapers there are multiple ways you can stop somebody that's why every ending you see the reapers are stopped. whether you destroy them you control them or everybody merges into cybernetic organism The Reapers Campaign Of Destruction is stopped I've always found destroy to be the biggest F yoy moment in the game because I spent two-and-a-half games learning about the conflict between quarians and the geth brokering peace between the two races disproving the Reapers theory that synthetic and Organics cannot get along....just to turn around and wipe them out......hell no Control all the way.
I refuse to choose any of the three *obvious* choices, @@wickedangelo4526. I love the option of shooting to kill the Starchild or otherwise choosing to finish the Reaper War on your own. This defaults to the "Every spacefaring species in the Milky Way Galaxy has been Harvested. The Cycle has been fully restored." Ending.
ME3 indoctrinates the player. Those who pick Control agree with TIM. Those who pick Synthesis agree with Saren. What do TIM and Saren have in common? They’re both indoctrinated and implanted with Reaper tech. Their words can’t trusted.
13:50 The way we see the Citadel control panel in first game is at a different location high on the council tower. Now flip your perspective of the Citadel. You are now on the underside of the tower with a secret master control. You are where the crucible connects to make the platform you collapse on raise up to that silly ending.
Something about the theory I've always found compelling that I'm not sure has ever been mentioned is how dejected and hopeless Shepard seems to be at the start of Mass Effect 3. I understand seeing what happened on Earth is ... disheartening, but I've always believed Shepard has seen so much that he would be able to weather this pain without it taking such an outward effect on him. I've always interpreted his loss of hope as lingering influence from his encounter with Object Rho, coupled with his forced isolation from his closest friends. What's coolest about this is that when he reunites with Ashley (I only saved Kaidan once), Liara and Garrus -- they pick him back up again in your conversations with them. These discussions seem to have a powerful impact on him, and he returns to a more hopeful (albeit tortured) state of mind for the remainder of the third game. It's hard for me to accept that Shepard would ever give up hope (or worse: outwardly project even a modicum of hopelessness). I have found it easier to accept that this is due to the influence of ongoing attempts to indoctrinate him and that, with the support of his friends, he is able to weather and emerge from the storm. I find this interpretation beautiful. If only Tali had been there to support us in those moments at the beginning of the third game too. ;-D
I always see his loss as. Shepard, doesn't know how to lose. In every fight Shepard is in, they win. They go on a mission that everyone says is suicide, and (if you do it right) nobody even dies on it) I've always seen ME3 sad shepard as them finally losing something, and not really knowing how to deal with it. Shepards entire career is based on finding the impossible, and wining anyways. But ME3 is full of losses and only minor gains.
If the evidence wasn't circumstantial then the secret of the ending would be too obvious. The catalyst is part of the Reapers. Harbinger leaving only creates one possible explanation. And yeah, Shepard living in only one ending makes perfect sense.
Dan doesn't subsribe to the Indoctrination theory though. although the documentaries I watched appear to have a compelling case for shepard slowly becoming indoctrinated. It has left a lot of people divided
Yes, it kinda falls apart at the end BUT maybe what they're hinting with that last shepards breath it's that he will stand again and do what he dreamed, and since it requires to have all war assets to be able to see that scene, it's may be because while shepard it's fighting indoctrination, the rest are fighting back the reapers and protecting the crucible, since you have every force the galaxy can offer, they manage to give shepard time to actually go and open the citadels arms and destroy the reapers. To me they weren't nearly hinting shepards survival, because when Liara finds the N7 tag it's in a totally different place over a mountain instead of just ruins, so it could be somewhere else. Now focusing on the sound of indoctrination, if im not mistaken, that sound it's largely used to hint when a character it's falling to indoctrination, even when leviathan make us dream, one thing that to me it's actually missing, it's that maybe shepard it's not resisting to indoctrination, why could he if he is just a human? saren and the illusive man also have great will power, so maybe the leviathan it's helping shepard to resist being the illusive man a representation of harbinger and Anderson a representation of leviathan fighting each other allowing us to ultimately take a side. Edit: grammar.
A lot of the inconsistencies you've mentioned are why I always had a hard time with the end of ME3 both before and after the Extended Cut. I truly think that Bioware did not come up with this theory but when it came out they went "Damn, that's pretty good". I still don't get the N7 person at the end of destroy taking a breath. I still don't get all the timing errors once you reach the Citadel. It sadly feels like they had no clue how to end Act 3 which is amazing since Acts 1 and 2 of the game are so good. I do not trust any of the footage from the ME4 trailer. Until we get an actual story trailer someday I'm not convinced either way.
The conclusion dan reaches is also pretty dumb, the indoctrination theory pretty much shows the ending was rushed and there was at least 1 more mission after that. not the first time this happens, remember KOTOR 2?
Bioware teased people with QR code clues. One of them was a red herring. They are aware that something is going on, just playing dumb. Though no one knows what the red erring is in reference to
@@mcschaschlik key thing is that the QR. codes signify Biowares approach to mysteries. They hint and tease at things in very specific manner, and this method can be seen in most of their more recent games. So when it is said that Bioware is not smart enough, I just laugh. They possess great cunning, and not always used for good. Cough cough “Anthem”
I definitely don’t mind this theory for another reason. That being Shepard has come into contact with Reapers, their artifacts, and their servants so often throughout the entire trilogy that it had to have some sort of effect on them. Could just be slow working like with some other characters. Sure, Shep’s strong willpower is brought up on the regular and is part of their background, but they aren’t a superhero. At the end of the day, Shep is still just a man/woman. That this one organic could miraculously resist it all (for convenience of plot) where everyone else has failed takes away from the cosmic horror.
I always felt that after Shepard opens the arms and falls unconscious the rest of it is all in their head. That would explain the star-child taking that form and the weird actions needed to set it all off.
On TIM being able to manipulate people: Morinth demonstrates a biotic ability that allows her to control people, Dominate, and when TIM manipulates Shepard his arm takes on the distinct blue glow of someone using biotics. Maybe the Reaper tech that TIM implanted himself with gave him a similar power?
The relays were severely damaged, which would prohibit interstellar travel. Even at FTL speeds it could take decades for the Normandy to get back to earth & that's assuming that there's fuel depots.
@@Razaiel Maybe only those who were active were used and destroyed. So those inactive were still there and we know there are A LOT of inactive relays. Probably they risked and activated them.
@@nickn2794 But then how would they get to Sol? That relay was destroyed, unless there is a deactivated one nearby that's a long time of travel to get to Earth. EDIT: I cannot spell to save my life.
I find this theory somewhat interesting and I came to a similar conclusion from my conversation with the odd boy. As far as Shepard surviving, it is entirely possible. While working on my Bachelor degree, I read accounts of people who survived atomic blasts because they either decided to lay down at the correct moment or happened to just have stepped out of a window at the correct moment. Additionally one woman was almost at ground zero in the basement of a bank that went on to drink the black rain that survived the blast.
but all of those scenarios involve air that can be breathed. shep was in space, thousands of miles above the ground. even if they survived the explosion, their body would burn up upon reentry, like it did at the beginning of mass effect 2
You gotta remember that at the end of the Leviathan DLC that Leviathan did successfully take Shepard’s mind before it’s over and Shepard convinces Leviathan to release them.
Tech can indoctrinate anybody but we are suppose to believe Shepherd is immune to repeated tech exposure, constant Reaper exposure (through Normandy v2's drive core), and repeated direct conversations with Reapers. All this plus being resurected with Tech implants by an indoctrinated business known to start using reapers tech experiments.
@@bryanb2886 It would be a massive reach by naysayers to say that Shepards mind is not being affected by the reapers when he has shown so many examples of this clearly being the case. Usually with theories that can be debunked, its someone taking one or two ideas and reaching really far in regards to speculation with them. With this theory, I can name 20 examples off of the top of my head of situations that show effects or possible effects of those undergoing the process towards indoctrination, all backed by documentation in game. Definitely not immune.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I think it makes sense for strong minded people (like Shepard) to be somewhat resistant to indoctrination for a time, but eventually even they would succumb. It might take years but it’s inevitable. I don’t think humans and most other species have the ability to resist indefinitely.
the mere fact that star boy looks like the boy in the beginning says they were in his head because only shepherd was crying over the boys death. They were clearly trying to manipulate him with the shape the star boy took
That alone proves that, at the very least, the Catalyst/Star Child can read minds and manipulate obtained information for his own needs. If he can do that, there are other things he must be able to do, indoctrination included and therefore, one would have to be tremendously naïve to trust him. This applies even if you think everything that happens in the last 20 minutes of the game is real and not a dream.
@@giorgialadashvili4771 while I agree with you, bad writers seems to be the trend these days. 🤷🏻♂️. They’ll need to confirm indoctrination theory in a trailer for mass effect 4 in order for me to come back to the franchise. I didn’t play andromeda either
Well after their original ending was leaked they were told by BW execs how to end the game; the "writers" didn't like the idea so they did a slipshod job in the limited time they had to re-write everything including already-written code. So I can forgive them for doing a slipshod end using a crappy concept from BW execs. I wish they'd done better but crap happens.
@@earlysteven123 I agree now that they've made it easier to receive the "full ending." I wasn't unhappy with the original ending; just confused by not being given enough information to really understand it.
@@earlysteven123 I'm not sure if you mean their originally planned ending or the "original ending" as it was when the game came out. I've never heard anything about what their original planned ending was so I can't say on that. For the "ending as the game came out" even if you pushed (through the fun but pointless Multi-Player hours to maximize your Readiness) to get a reasonably complete ending the final piece was confusing. The postlude with the Normandy survivors I had no trouble understanding - though I wanted to see more of what finally happens to the previous crew that didn't join you in ME3; but the bit of story that follows that is just odd. I don't want to say so much that I spoiler though.
You missed another exhibit. In my last playthrough, after Shepard woke up, i noticed some darkly trees and shrubs in the decimated battlefield, kinda similar to the dream sequences, which weren't there during the hammer's rush to the beam. So, how come those trees and shrubs were there in the middle of a battlefield decimated by Harbinger's freaking laser. It makes no sense unless it's another dream sequence. 🤔
Im not going to argue against it myself, but it can be easily argued by others as an oversight to “rushing” the ending. I would be more interested in the whispy fluctuating sound that is heard. Sounds like high pitched buzzing or ringing, which is an indication of indoctrination according to the codexes. A lower pitched, similar quality sound can be heard in the dream sequences, but naysayers can easily argue since they do not sound the same
Honestly, I think the inclusion of the Illusive Man to the end really is what sparked it all and I would bet money that Control is the least picked ending because of it.
Oh no, he's wearing a suit!
It's the Illusive Dan!
😂
...and unlike TIM and like every youtuber in suit he wears nothing below the waist.
Don't worry. I guess Dan does not drink Bourbon. He can't be a bad person.
It's Indoctrination video about Indoctrination theory.... There is definitely some conspiracy plot))
I tip my hat to you sir, good day
"Shepard doesn't have any reaper artifacts on the Normandy"
Me with a husk head on my desk that I talk to all the time: 😬
If anyone is getting indoctrinated by it. It would be James as it bit him
aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh
yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaagh
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
@@nightmarewolf3515 oh yeah definitely 😂
What do you think of the Reaper IFF they have on the Normandy?
Didn’t you also bring back a weird bluish sphere in ME2’s Firewalker DLC? It was said to be Prothean, but it still looks Reaper to me.
Also, Cerberus scientists on the dead Reaper were seeing-presumably- husks come from the vents before they became them. That’s not entirely related, but interesting to bring up.
Unlimited ammo is an easy explanation! The whole galaxy switched back from thermal clips while Shepard was out! They took Conrad Verner’s advice
Should have gone for a hybrid system where you can wait for cooldown to save ammo or eject the clip to save time
@@arcadeinvader8086 I believe this was technically explained in game somewhere. Something along the lines of not being able to fit both a thermal clip, and a heat vent into most guns. Which makes sense with some weapons in the game actually, like pistols and smgs.
Okay I would buy this except you can still hit R (or the respective manual reload button) to pop a new thermal clip in.
@@SageSchispell Additionally in Jacob's loyalty mission, his father's ship had been crashed for a decade (before the switch), and you find thermal clips all over the place. (probably just game engine limitations)
I think its more that thermal clips eject heat from the gun. If your gun overheats too much, it'll probably end up damaging it in the long run, and a good soldier would maintain their equipment. But most importantly, doing this is technically a choice - you could choose not to eject a saturated thermal clip and build up more and more heat at the risk of eventually bricking your gun. In a situation like this, an injured Shepard that may not even have their clips, might make that choice. In the final fight, where survival is everything and you can't take the risk of 'reloading', overheating the weapon might be the lesser of two evils.
Of course, this is a fridge logic explanation for the obvious 'devs didnt want to worry about ammo in a mostly cinematic section'.
My addition to this is: when you talk to Javik, when he recalls about the prothean's fight against the Reapers, he tells about how a part of his people got indoctrinated and were pushing to control the reapers, rather than destroy them.
Indeed. All known parties who believed in control were stated to be manipulated by the reapers to beleive this. It would be strange fort the catalyst, who is bound to the reapers in a way we don’t know to tell you that “sure, you can control us”, when this has bee shown multiple times to be a ploy by the reapers
And for those that would argue that maybe Shepard is the exception and is strong willed enough to choose control. While this is a possibility, it is extremely unlikely. I present Morinth, whom prominently appears in Mass Effect 2. Morinth is an Ardat Yakshi(a pure blooded Asari that will actually overload the mind and kill anyone who breeds with her).Morinth at some point will try to convince Shepard that while everyone in her 500 years of going through this process has died, she believes that Shepard is strong willed enough to handle it, since Shepard was able to resist an earlier attempt at a mind control like biotic ability. This is of course shown to be a ruse, as choosing to undergo with the process, Shepard is killed in a very disturbing manner. Case and point, it is even more likely that Shepard would fail to control the reapers than he would with choosing to breed with Morinth. The catalyst playing the same game, he couldn’t do it, but you can is an appeal to ego.
No it was stated the other way around. That the Prothan faction that argued control got Indoctrinated not that they were indoctrinated already
@@ConnorLonergan And the prothean VI stated that each cycle has the same peaks of evolution, and the same valleys of dissolution, then implying that this sequence of arguing for control has happen many times before. The fact that those arguing for control have been ended up being indoctrinated multiple times before heavily heavily implies that the indoctrination is what leads to belief in control in the first place. Like Kaiden stated, the reapers tactics are ingenious, using indoctrination to systematically divide the galactic races of a cycle, causing them to lose a man, while the reapers bolster their own forces. Control is the dividing force that is caused by indoctrination.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 No the VI states the Control Faction ended up Indoctronated. Not that they where Indoctronated first.
One of the reasons I like this theory, despite its flaws, is that your goal through the trilogy was always destroy the reapers. So for them to suddenly present other options in the final minutes of the game feels like them trying to trick shepard in one last attempt to make sure he fails. When you ignore it and still focus on your goal, destroying them, shepard lives. Kinda tells us something was off with the others.
while i belive that for Control synthesis not so much
@@absol-lutezero5309 according to the Leviathans, the intelligence was created to stop synthetics destroying organics. Synthesis is similar to the outcome achieved by creating Reapers, converting organic life into biomechanical life.
@@rowantritton8659 while sorta true yes but keep in mind if synthesis makes synthetic and Organics the same cause the need for one ti slaughter the other to be taken away the Reapers no longer have a purpose so renders them pointless
@@absol-lutezero5309 that’s fair
@@rowantritton8659 first time ive gotten that response i mostly get No No ThAtS DuMb CaUsE ThAt MaKeS No SeNsE REEE
The indoctrination through dreams part makes sense for me. In my recent playthrough, Mordin died in the suicide mission. And in every dream, I hear Mordin saying "Do the right thing" it's like as if the reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shepard, but his memories of his dead teammates are trying to save him. And it's not just Mordin! I heard a lot of teammates but I don't really remember them and Mordin's voice was the only one stuck in my mind cuz that part really punched in me :/
Yeah I think you can also hear either Ashley or Kaiden depending on who you left behind on Virmire.
Or the Reapers are using what you care about most, to try and push you towards a seemingly compassionate choice, rather than a destructive one.
@@eldritchedward Yeah even before IT when I first played ME 3 I didn't think the nightmares where just nightmares. I assumed then his head was getting screwed with. Can't believe there are a large portion of players that just take it as nightmares.
@@xtremejay2000 I always assumed it might be either, which I enjoyed. Shepard has been through a lot. But then again... there was just something off. I was really let down by it not being resolved.
@@eldritchedward Yea that's the other side of the coin. Still sucks that they never gave us a straight answer.
We all passed the loyalty mission and unlocked the Big Dan alternate outfit! Now he'll live through the ME2 suicide mission.
I mean. Have we bought all the upgrades tho?
@@artemis_smith nah but he has less priority than legion so he'll be fine.
Jacob still won't survive.
Unless we make him the tech expert.
Too bad Bioware doesn't do anything with him in ME3
“Ah yes, 'believing Bioware was smart enough to write the indoctrination theory on purpose...’ we have dismissed that claim.”
They should've just pretended to. You have a lot more room for expanding on things with IT
@@Cabbage22927 Yeah, or atleast have the humility of saying "you know, we didnt plan that, but its so much better than what we did that its now canon"
Nice Council reference
But you love Mass Effect so much so that the rest of the story is written wonderfully except for the ending because you "didn't like it." Then it's "Bad writing?" Do you even write bro?
@@Cabbage22927 I mean that would then mean admitting they are worse writers. They pretend they did mean it, then means they wrote an ending with way more plot holes than the original had. Sure its a more interesting idea, but pretending it was intended makes them worse writers for it would mean they created a ending that contradicts itself at every turn
At the very beginning of 3, the little boy playing with the ship wasn’t just showed to the audience. Shepard is seen watching him from his room while he’s playing. So every scene involving the boy is witness by Shepard
Thank you, thought the same when he said that
@@nicolasfonts3194 Yeah, he does the same thing a few times throughout this video. Like not mentioning Reaper tech onboard the Normandy, or how the Indoctrination Theory mentions the "oily shadows and sour yellow notes" relate to shadows in Shepard's dream, and the growls the Reapers emit. Or the fact that the oily shadows reappear when talking to Anderson and The Illusive Man.
and then there's no one who helped the boy into the ship that a few seconds later gets shot down. not even people already inside the shuttle. that's not normal, even in that kind of situation. Sure the marines may not have spotted the kid, but no one inside seeing a kid struggling to get on tried to help him?
Another bit of evidence for indoctrination theory - the final choice chamber is a giant dialogue wheel, complete with the paragon, neutral and renegade color coded decisions. You literally walk along the dialogue wheel to make a choice. This dialogue wheel is how Shepard thinks. The ending is occurring in Shepards head :D
Very interesting observation. Renegade red- shoot your problems to solve. Paragon Blue- Be the hero, sacrifice. Synthesis- sacrifice yourself, but make a choice for everyone without their say. The reSon this theory lives is because there is something suspicious going on with how it plays out.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 Certainly could be. I interpret it as the reapers positioning their two pro reaper options as positive or pragmatic, while independence is renegade. To my knowledge, this is the first time in game there has literally been blue and red lights in the world map to indicate paragon or renegade decisions. The rest of the time it's just been a UI indicator.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I choose synthesis purely due to all creatures being granted much longer lives, access to all previous cultures, synethics become real. Control ending - what if Shepard goes mad or somehow loses control, the reapers will start all over whilst destroy will set back the galaxy to the stone age practically, due to the destruction of electronics.
Refuse - "I should go"
⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰000⁰⁰⁰⁰00⁰⁰0⁰0⁰⁰⁰00⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰0⁰⁰0⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰⁰0⁰⁰0⁰
RIP Marauder Shields. Never forget his sacrifice.
He lived as Marauder shields, he died as Marauder health, trying to protect you. RIP
Head Canon: Marauder Shields is Nihlus
How? Why? Don’t know, don’t care, just want to believe the Reapers somehow got his corpse and put him right there just to stop Shepard if he got that far
@@warlordofbritannia source: I made it up
Someone should put together a slide show of his life with Sarah McLachlan playing in the background
@@klunsf I will remember you...you will remember me...
I think it’s possible that even if the developers didn’t intend it, the indoctrination theory can still be a good explanation for inconsistencies in the ending and maybe give a more satisfying conclusion than the official ending. I think it definitely makes the Destroy ending more satisfying because perhaps destroying the Reapers doesn’t actually destroy EDI and the Geth. That may have been a lie from the Catalyst to keep Shepard from choosing that ending. That would also mean that the Extended Cut narration would also be part of this theory and would be a lie.
Feel like a lot of it can’t be thrown out but he is probably not indoctrinated
It does feel manipulative to choose the child they killed to not seem like genocidal alien robots
He does try pushing you to not choose the destroy ending
and it is quite outputting that the synthesis ending sounds just like indoctrination
They confirmed it as it not being that deep and while it sounded cool and to have these fan-fic, it's just that, a fan-fic.
It is still nice to have had the theory.
I think that the Geth were wiped out as they were all together in fleet formation and the Destroy signal ricochets around all of the mass relays to destroy synthetics across all the star systems, but I believe Edi survived thanks to Joker being the best Alliance pilot. The Normandy was outrunning the destroy effect the last time we saw in the ending, slingshotting to other relays. All Joker would need to do at the end is slingshot into a star system that the Destroy shockwave already ended inside of. And that would mean slingshotting into a star system with a busted Mass Relay, which is what it seems like happens when the Normandy is crashed on that unnamed planet at the end. They likely hadn't taken off yet either do to Joker pushing the Normandy systems to the absolute limit running away, or due to the knowledge that the Mass Relay in their system was heavily damaged and they'd need to wait for repairs.
even if it wasn't canon, the catalyst could've still lied about killing the geth and EDI just to disuade Shepard and try to get on his sympathetic side, heck he even represented himself as that child shepard saw die in front of him to further make him more empathetic towards him, the catalyst is hardcore trying to manipulate shepard on many levels, theory or not theory
Personally I do think the Catalyst lied about synthetics being killed- or at least over-exaggerated the damage it would cause. It would make sense if EDI and the geth had some malfunctions as Reaper code and/or hardware shut down along with the actual Reapers, but that would be a repairable issue, not a death sentence. And with Tali onboard the Normandy and the quarians allied with the geth, repairs would be carried out in no time.
"sour yellow note" always reminded me of how Harbinger, leader of the reapers, has yellow eyes, and is the only reaper associated with the color yellow. I assumed the Rachni Queen meant Harbinger, specifically, but didnt have a name for him
Thought the same thing.
I'd say Sovereign was active and looking for ways to harm biological life.
Sour yellow
Rotten yellow
Greenish yellow
Synthesis option
It's a reference to a frequency that is known for affecting organic life (in real life, not the game). There is a video about it. The Leviathan used the same technologies the Reapers use on the occasion. It's all a metaphor for something else.
Except I just replayed Leviathan, and it's highly implied that they were the ones control the Rachni, not the Reapers.
"The Adventures of Shepard and Vakarian" poster is a nice little touch.
There's no Shepard without Vakarian!
I have a t-shirt with the same design i bought on etsy! It's awesome especially since I'm a big fan of both ME and The Adventures of Batman and Robin
@@ariazuniga7193 I have the same shirt. I have alotta gaming themed graphic Tee's but none get people to stop & talk about it like that one & an Uncle Sam themed one I found that says "The Alliance needs you!!!" and it has Hackett pointing instead of Uncle Sam.
@@johnbrennan8611 omg! I didn't know that exists and now i need it
@@ariazuniga7193 lol, I got it years ago at a mall up in Vermont. If I find a link to it I'll send it to ya.
I feel like Shepard waking up on Earth after the destroy ending is the key here. Shep gets to the beam, or near enough to interface with it (Prothean artifacts have never needed you to physically touch them, just be near), and then everything else is a battle in Shep's mind to resist indoctrination and give the neural command to activate the Crucible. Shep doesn't beam up to the Citadel, just interfaces on Earth at the beam itself, and everything we see play out is that process of neural interfacing while trying to resist the reaper influence.
this! it always made sense to me the beam dosn't teleport you like people beleave! but its just a wireless mind interface like the beacons!
But then why is everyone racing to it ?? Not everyone is able to interface with Prothean tech. Right ??
@@macmittens5475 maybe it’s like you need to be in the beam to work it but not on the citadel
@@macmittens5475 maybe the Reapers built it like that to make us think it looks like a teleporter, a way to make us think it's a convenient way inside the citadel so that they could lure any attacker into a place where they could be easily ambushed. And it is the prefect place for that. It's inside a crater, anyone who gets inside there is like fish in a barrel for reaper forces.
@@macmittens5475 I dont think they knew it wasnt a teleporter. They just assumed because thats what they were used to.
What happened in real world is Conrad Werner got to the Citadel and opened the arms while Shepard was lying in dirt.
Wow, and then Werner got to choose between destroy, control or the the green option...
@@sharky582 Conrad doesn't need no deus ex machina to destroy the reapers, he did so himself.
Actually, it was Bailey who saved the galaxy, Shepherd died from the laser hit and Bailey saved the day and lied about it so Shepherd looked better. It's explained in the codex.
This is my head canon. Conrad saved us all! 😂
@@mikicerise6250 he's the chosen one
“Ah yes, ‘indoctrination theory...’ we have dismissed that claim.”
I've commented that on at least two occasions.
@@Jedi_Spartan it’s an evil world we live in
@@Jedi_Spartan good for you?
@@Jedi_Spartan also I read all the comments when I posted that, so it wasn’t here
@@Jedi_Spartan It's a super easy joke to make. It was bound to happen regardless lol
With the refusal ending, and the Star Child's voice changing like that. I always took it as a sign of it's frustration. Shepard being the first being in hundreds of thousands of years who could actually do something, bring about a change that even the Star Child couldn't. Only for that being to turn around and be like "nah, I'm cool."
At that point I wouldn't blame it for being slightly pissed off. Like being upset about a wasted opportunity.
The worst ending choice of a game I ever played by far
No. Not the Star Child. The Star Brat
This is some 4th wall shit, you're being indoctrinated fool
Destroy ending would be much better if it's shooting the child.
@@Brother_O4TSat the end of one of my perfectionist playthroughs I shot the catalyst in the head lol. It legit scared me, since I had around 8300 war assets and was ready for the Perfect Ending. Yet I unlocked the worst ending accidentally. Of course I reloaded the game haha
This is the first time I’ve truly listened to the whole indoctrination theory and it’s way better than what we actually got. Playing through legendary edition reminded me just how lackluster the endings actually were, even with the extended cut. Finding out the reapers were trying to indoctrinate you throughout the whole trilogy and knowing your choices would have seen you either resist them or join them would be genius level writing. Shame BioWare didn’t put that level of writing into the real ending.
It actually is. The ghost kid is just shit writing. Put in old deceased teammates as ghosts instead at least
So then just accept that the endings are bad if that's what you think. You're trying to cope with your opinion of the ending with this ridiculous theory.
@@HeyAddieImTojo oh that would have worked. Even in a no death run Ash or Kaidan always die.
@@oscara8454 yeah, at least it is better than this kid that we have seen for 10 seconds total in game
Indoctrination theory leaves off with a cliffhanger ending and cliffhangers suck. also if indoctrination theory is true what happens then after Shepard wakes up after the reapers fail to indoctrinate him? I think it would be VERY difficult to then top it off with a better or equivelant interesting and raw ending sequence as the original.
One more interesting thing about IT - whenever there's an indoctrination attempt you see black shadows on the edges of the screen. You can see them when you speak with TIM when he tries to control Shepard and (added in legendary edition iirc) when you speak with reapers. Another thing is whispers - everything that tells you about how indoctrination happens mentions whispers and in me3 you can hear whispers in the TIM dialog and in all dream sequences. Pretty sure there were other examples of both shadows and whispers in the game, but i dont remember them unfortunately. There's one thing about how James hears buzzing when Shepard comes to him. As for how Shepard got indoctrinated - they've been to (and even in): dead reaper, human reaper, giant reaper artefact for 3 days, reaper tech research labs (from some of which they took the tech with them), keeps reaper tech on the normandy (iff), spoke with reapers and obviously fights reapers all the time. Judging by other characters, even one of those things would be enough to corrupt someone with weaker will. One more thing is that in all games idea of controlling the reapers or merging with them is considered as something only indoctrinated being would think and everyone (not just characters, but also how the plot is built) is against it, but suddenly in the ending its the opposite.
Too bad IT has a lot of holes though, it'd be cool to have it instead of what bioware came up with and there's not a chance they wanted to make me3 ending a false ending which they'd expand in the next game since they always called it a trilogy and me4 is probably EA forcing them to make another one.
Yeah, I would say that verbatim, the indoctrination theory is not totally correct, but is borne from true observations. Those observations being signs of Shepard clearly being manipulated. I mean, just look at the starchild. Whether it is a dream or real, the only other reason the catalyst would take that form other than manipulation is because”lols Bioware thought it would be cool.”
I think the reason that Indoctrination Theory is so popular is because people simply *want* to believe it. It's just *better* than the writing we eventually got in the game.
Could you imagine how mind blowing it would've been, if players who picked synthesis or control got the endings and roll credits as normal, but players who picked destroy and made the right choices throughout the 3 games got this epic Christopher Nolan-esque scene where all the pieces of Indoctrination attempts fall into place, and then Shepard actually wakes back up at the base of the beam to go on and defeat the Reapers in the REAL ending of the game?
Not only would it have been genius writing, it would have been incredibly bold and a statement on not just indoctrinating Shepherd, but indoctrinating the *player* and making the *player* believe "I am in control, and I can shape this world and this story to my will," but in reality you can't. It would have been an incredible deconstruction of the purpose, value, and - most importantly - *illusion* of choice in a "choice based" video game.
The indoctrination theory is so appealing because it pulls on those threads of genius that were almost there, and I think people see the potential that could be there.
What if they misunderstood what the beam did and it only sent your consciousness up to the citadel, not your actual body? So it was a dream, but the dream acted as a way for his mind to make sense of its interaction with the catalyst in digital space?
Interesting idea. That would make sense, because we know that Reapers can send their 'consciousness' out (Harbinger controlling the Collector). I like it!
It would also help explain that wound he gets. Since Anderson would most likely be a representation/manifestation of a part of his own mind.
I think that could have made for a better outcome. I've read many other comments with similar sentiments. It would have been nice to see the ending be a battle of wits between harbinger and Shepard. Shepard winning or losing an argument based on his past decisions throughout the games. But unfortunately BioWare has already disproved indoctrination theory.
It could also explain how shepard wakes up in the rubble on earth in destroy ending
@@Ki_Adi_Mundi would the Illusive Man also be that, too?
When you only wanted the treadmill to be 10-15 minutes then big Dan comes out with a 30 minute video. Thanks for making me lose weight 😂.
Hell yeah! Run, bitch! Grind that shit!
This is literally me! I just ran an extra mile because you know I had to finish the video.
"You're working too hard"
I always loved this theory, it turns the confusing and stupid ending into an actual final battle with the most terrifying power of the reapers: Indoctrination
Through the series, you see people, good and bad, do horrible things under the effects o indoctrination.Its something that eats away at your mind slowly warping your thoughts until you reach the conclusion that serving the reapers is the only option.
Its finnicky, because minds are very different between individuals. Strong willed people that could feel indoctrination taking place and even resist it required a violent exertion of control (like what happened to matriarch Benezia) meanwhile, smarter people were subverted through weaknesses in their egos.
Saren was so terrified by the reapers that Sovereign took advantage of his fear to manipulate him into thinking the only way to survive was being usefull to the Reapers.
The Illusive man wanted to lead humanity to greatness, he saw the Reapers as a threat, but he allowed himself to be tempted by their potential. They made him think he could control them, use them for the greater good of humanity, and blinded him to how he was becoming their puppet.
And lastly, Shepard. But Shepard would never bend the knee. He had seen the truth of the Reapers. No argument could convince him. He wasnt afraid and he was aware of what happened to those who attempted to control the reapers. But Shepard does have a weakness.
If you make Shepard think its his choice, he will choose. Throughout the series, one truth remains constant, Shepard´s decisions shape the galaxy. Let him think he is the one choosing what happens to the whole galaxy. Trick him into thinking he is in control of his destiny one last time. Make him fear the consequences of his choice. and give him several options.
In reality, you are not choosing anything, you are fighting the Reaper´s whisper in you ears. You are the most important person in the galaxy, all your choices matter, only you can bear this burden, only you can make this sacrifice. Once again indoctrination strikes at a weakness, responsibility and self importance built over 3 games and dozens of hours. And the player must see through this (or atleast be stubborn enough) to resist indoctrination and save Shepard.
Best part is it makes your fleet force actually important by determining wether the reapers are defeated or not through that and not your choice. Its not one person that matters, its everyone coming together. And if you do it right, you might live to see it through to the end.
Hope BioWare likes the theory enough to make it canon. They deserve another Andromeda flop if they insist with the surface level ending. Specially when you stop to consider how different all those endings are.
Oh and one last clue you missed: "you yourself are part synthetic" weird that the one ending that explicitly states you are killing yourself with no living on in some sense is the one in which you survive.
Well put. This is exactly why I still love the Indoctrination Theory, no matter what Bioware decides to bring to the table for ME4.
I will only add one thing! Beyond the surface level of TIM and Saren being representations of the Control and Synthesis endings, there is something deeply troubling about both of these options. The lack of free will for the rest of the galaxy. One could argue that it's been true for other choices in the Trilogy (for example the Genophage resolution being entirely in the player's hands), but it goes deeper.
The Control option... Even if we were to take the ending at face value, that would mean that Shepard becomes a freaking God. Shepard, or rather whatever they became, could wipe civilizations off the face of the universe. Their will would be law, and that's that. That always went against what I was fighting for, as a player. Feeding the galaxy this false sense of freedom, this lie, never sat right by me.
The Synthesis option... At face value, it absolutely is the most tempting one. If we're to believe Star Child, we wouldn't have to sacrifice anyone but Shepard for this happy ending. The hard-fought Geth alliance? Intact! EDI? Alive and free to live her best life and smooch a now probably very sturdy Joker. But as Shepard says if the player chooses to argue against it, the synthesis option means forcing a whole new way of existing on the entire galaxy. And we see in the cutscene that even HUSKS stop fighting, stumbling back in confusion, as they've been given- what? Their memories back? Regained control on their monstrous body? Or is the original person still dead and they're... someone new? The brutes, the banshees, all of them would become- alive, trapped in this weird body... Even Maraudeur Shield, lol. We don't know if they'd remember anything at all of the horror that went down. It might be fine, but at the very least we can say it's not as easy of a choice (or risk free) as it seems.
Now sure, at face value the Destroy option has you sacrificing a lot of allies (that is, assuming the Star Child isn't lying), but that is a risk people are aware of, and in the case of your teammates they are ready to make that sacrifice. The Destroy ending honors their choice.
@@TheAsameth mordin said something
Limitations push a species to overcome them and evolve essentially
Synthesis removes said limitations
FYI the Normandy does have Reaper tech onboard - the Reaper IFF from the end of ME2. This also lends credence to why Harbinger doesn't attack the Normandy when it swoops in to save your squad before Shepard goes up the beam.
That could make sense. Only thing is that the IFF only produces a signal, I believe Harbonger would notice the ship right in front but we dont know how reapers visualize their surroundings
I mean okay, but why do Reapers attack you in the map screen then if the IFF is supposed to play a role? I suppose you could think that Harbinger was preoccupied and didn't think to check if Normandy was actually friend or foe but that's definitely lazy.
@@8xottox8when pinging to locate, this is a direct signal that likely is different from what the reapers recognize. I honestly think the IFFs only role was to allow them to actually use the Omega 4 relay. Other than that, it should have no use to the normandy, because normandy is a stealth ship that does not give off any signals when the ship is in space… unless it deliberately emits a signal.
@@8xottox8 only other reason I would say harbinger does not attack Normandy is because he does not want to kill Shepard. The explosion of the Normandy at the range has a very percent chance of killing Shepard
Lmfao that's not how the IFF works. It's only meant for Reapers to not find the Normandy out in space. They can literally find you when you put out signal
Harbinger can fucking see the Normandy LOL.
Big Dan about to be Shepard's distraction in the casino dressed so suavely
He used me as bait! He used me as bait. The Savior of Citadel used the overweight man as bait!
I'm just glad it's not me. I can't stand formal wear. It's not useful in a battle. Plus it looks ridiculous
@@Bigpep69420 Too much Krogan to handle anyways lol.
@@johnbrennan8611 that was just an excuse to make me feel better. I'm actually sad you don't take me anywhere nice 😔 I just wanna shoot up a casino.
@@Bigpep69420 Well in my play throughs, you always got to have a shootout in the CIC of my ship & it wasn't even your birthday lol. Wrex & Grunt are my favorite characters. "Officer, this Krogan is part of a Spectre task force. Operation Fire Cobra Claw." LMAO. "So how were those noodles?" "Alil spicy" "I love you Grunt." "Heh heh heh." Lol. Classic.
I got completely indoctrinated myself in my first ME3 playthrough, since I totally bought this utopia that the Catalyst was describing to Shepard with the Synthesis ending... without even realizing the obvious, that it was exactly what Saren was trying to do in ME1, and Shepard was condemning Saren's goal back then.
I think we all like the Indoctrination Theory despite its obvious flaws, because we fans love the series so much that we need this headcanon to make the ending suck a little less. Which, as you described, makes the Citadel DLC an even better conclusion to the series.
- It's been a good ride.
- The best.
I never even thought about Saren. It always felt gross to me just because it'll be literally changing every being in the galaxy, down to their very DNA, without ever consulting anyone else about it. Maybe other players feel differently, but my Shepards never feel they can take that decision away from all of these people like that. Realizing it was just Saren's idea that failed only solidifies my opinion
I always saw the 3 endings as representative of other people you've met. Blue is TIM, since he wanted to try and play god and control the other species in the galaxy. Green is Saren, since he wanted to turn everyone into a sythetic/organic hybrid. Red was Sovereign as you destroy the reapers, mirroring what they do to the organics every cycle. At the end you basically pick which villain you agreed with, but pertaining to the reapers instead of humanity.
Synthesis has nothing to do with what Saren wants. He was willing to be a reaper slave to live, how is it the same thing as synthesis?
@@JiggSsaw because Synthesis makes everyone a slave to some organic-artificial hive mind engineered by the Reapers
@@YarblocosifiliticoHow? Destroy fanboys will create every possible nonsense about the other endings. There is no hivemind in synthesis ending XDXDXDXDXD.
28:15 The easy explanation (for me at least!) is that Anderson made it to the beam and inside, and what Shepard is experiencing is a trippy view through the eyes of the Starchild/Catalyst as it tries to take his mind completely. He is engaged in a mental battle. If he accepts indoctrination, it wins and Anderson cannot make the Crucible fire (and he imagines utopian endings). If he fights it, he holds the Starchild/Catalyst back long enough for Anderson to activate the Crucible, which destroys the Reapers (and the ending is true). His role is just as important, but in a scenario where there are enough war assets for a search party to find him in the London rubble, he therefore survives. It makes sense to me.
But why would the Catalyst even waste his time on breaking Shepard's mind? He was barely alive, lying in dirt and unable to move, and posed absolutely no threat to Reapers. Whereas Anderson is supposedly making his way to activate the Crucible and destroy every one of them! Wouldn't it be smarter to indocrinate Andeson then?
@@vermosh They’ve been obsessed with Shepard since he took out Sovereign. The whole reason they went after humans and made a human reaper in 2 was down to this. Also the reason Leviathan though this cycle had the potential to finally be different. Shepard is uniting the galaxy as no one did before, because in previous cycles everyone was conquered (last one, it was by the Protheans) and therefore didn’t have the range of resources and expertise to finish the Crucible. Winning Shepard would have remained the top goal as it represents victory.
@@marsmartin all Reapers are connected in a network, controlled by the most advanced AI ever existed. Its computing power is impossible to imagine. That is why i don't believe Reapers can be obsessed with anything. They act rationally, as rationally as it is possible. And, in the end, it is not that hard to figure out the priority threat between Anderson and Shepard. Indocrinating Shepard would be really cool, it would turn the gallaxy's best guardian against it and definitely weaken the morale. But surely that can wait a bit, first take care of an imminent threat, then think about future campaign.
Dude thank you so much for that
@@vermosh Reapers aren't all seeing so as long as Anderson went unnoticed then they would stay focused on Shepherd and I mean after all it's a game in the story so you can take it anyway you want. But really though to write a good ending it would work
I like the idea that synthesis only becomes an option with enough war assets as the reapers see it as easier option than fighting everything
Honestly, this is like a textbook case of "The death of the author", where the author as the final instance of text interpretation is taken out of the equation. Or like a professor of mine once said: It doesn´t matter what the author intended, he wrote what he wrote. It is up to the reader to extrapolate meaning from the text - within reason of course.
There's nothing to extrapolate from this mess of artistic intergraty. Bioware are rubbish at writing
There are plenty of undiscovered areas on the citadel. They mentioned in the fist game that they don't know where keepers come from. They don't know where or how they breed. When one dies another keeper show up to take its place. They don't know where on the citadel they come from. ( Anderson inconsistences on the Citadel )
Cool video!
I dont think that writes anything off tho. Why are there more than one master control panels? Why did Anderson end up in a different spot after going through the same beam?
@@Crizzly122 its a holodisplay so it could be any where. Plus the reapers/keeps would want to have private access to the master control panel. Considering the reapers made the citadel it makes sense they made secret areas. the reapers made the mass relays to make it easier to harvest life. Secret areas would make the harvest easier for them.
The beam could have a sorting feature? (this feels like a stretch tbh). Like Anderson said his location looked my like the collector base. Perhaps for living people to get turned to goo. Shepard gets the dead body room cause they are almost dead?
@@Crizzly122 your assumption is that the "master control panel" that the counsel knows about is the real Master control panel. Its Reaper Tek designed to speed up the development process of civilizations. Obviously they would want something that could control the most basic funtions of the Citadel well hidding away the real one that controlled all the additional functions of the Citadel. You dont want someone to accidentally find out all your secrets after all.
@@evilbackward999 Which control panel was Saren sent to use at the end of ME1? 😵
@@keskes1338 yes but Saren wasn't trying to access the artificial intelligence area he was only controlling the arms of the Citadel.
Also you mentioned a growling reflecting a failed indoctrination attempt (re: Grayson) - you do hear a Reaper growl during the scene with the boy in the vent, when Anderson interrupts. I see other people have mentioned the Reaper IFF, the various artifacts and code you bring to people, the husk head just chilling in your cabin and all the time you spend on or around derelict Reapers, alive Reapers, and Reaper-adjacent minions, so I won't mention those...save for the fact that James also comments on there being a weird hum in the cargo bay in his ambient dialogue, if you talk to him. One of the main symptoms of indoctrination from the codex is the presence of weird humming, whispers and eventually voices in your head.
ME1's codex also explains the dreams as indoctrination.
Well the indoctrination process is described as being a combined assault of grating sounds and hormone manipulation with the purpose of breaking down the victim's will so they become easily suggestable by the reapers. The process can easily destroy the mind of the victim depending on how fast it's done. If indoctrination theory were true there would probably be something like a flashbang ringing effect playing as Shepard runs to the beam.
I really think the humming is just the ship's drive core. It's fairly close to the shuttle bay
Thank you for pointing out James' line, if it was just about the drive core, he wouldn't add "Is that just me?"
I don't believe indoctrination theory in full but there is something fishy happening in this game and the whole last 15 minutes literally feel like from another game, like written by another team, like a sentence cut in half. I get they were probably rushed with the last game but the ending of the trilogy is something you should definitely put the most focus on and I refuse to believe they didn't think of all the implications any crrative choices would have
The queen described her interpretation as a sour yellow note because sound is the main way her species perceives things, it could easily translate to the growling sound we hear as shepard. Reminds me of Synesthesia.
In my headcannon I like to think that the whole sequence isn't completely in Shepards head but Shepard is still seeing illusions. What's happening is still happening but a lot of the inconsistencies and strange occurrences can still be chalked up to be hallucinations. What's going on is still actually going on but Shepard is still fighting the indoctrination at the same time. I like this theory because it makes you think about what is real and what isn't.
he definitely is getting indoctrinated seeing how he shoots anderson but i doubt everything is a dream
I feel the exact same.
exactly, was coming to make this comment. Also with the dreams its just not Oily Shadows, indoc people also hear whispers, which shep does in the dreams, and once TIM shows up(as well as oily shadows). He never heard those whispers or seen shadows around other indoc'd people before. My theory is they were planning on the indoctrination being used in some way for the ending, but EA didn't like the idea and made them change it. Everyone who says they never was any indoctrination, is just spilling company lines and not burning bridges because of how bad the ending came out to be.
@@Brian-my7hn I don’t think EA was meddling in their studios that closely back then. What I think happened was that the game needed an extra 6 months- 1 year to finish fleshing it out but EA didn’t give them the go ahead to do so.
They needed time but they ran out, and supposedly just a few months before release their original ending had to be scrapped because it leaked.
Brilliant! I think this would be a compelling rewrite of IT too.
17:00 as a note "There are no Reaper artifacts on the Normandy."
EDI makes note that you are still running a Reaper IFF... so there is one piece of Reaper tech on board...
And EDI herself was partly based on Reaper tech
@@lockretvids I'd question though if either of those would be enough on their own to indoctrinate someone
@@Aurelius-bf3yx is it the only Reaper tech on board tho? I mean, nobody ever questions the Lazarus project, as if resurrecting someone is just a question of how much money you have to spend to do it, but I let's be real here, the only ones who can reanimate corpses in ME universe are the Reapers.
@@Aurelius-bf3yx I always had the theory that the catalyst never wanted to indoctrinate Shepard even if it had the chance. If we assume that it's not lying at the end than neither the catalyst nor the reapers were ever really hostile against organic creatures. They were created to actually save organic life but their solution is just very bad. The catalyst is even kind of acknowledging that when it says that their solution doesn't work anymore. So it let Shepard, basically the avatar of that circle, trough to talk and see if they can't figure out something different. And why Shepard? Because he/she is different and has a very strong mind, that becomes clear at several points in the story. Being able to withstand Morinth, surviving the Prothean beacon...
Yup and honestly no one knows what they packed into Shepard when she was dead. Miranda makes even a few mentions of controlling chips and that they totally didn't install them, unprompted and like... It's weird.
Also, sometimes James says "Do you hear that hum? Is that just me?" and it drives me insane that we cannot interact more with it since Reapers often use sound to indoctrinate
23:30 Very few ppl talk about this, when you ask the Catalyst about the destroy choice we see Anderson actualy shooting the tank. To me this scene is either an indicator that Anderson actualy made it to the Citidel instead of Shepard (And Shepard unconsciously somehow knows about it), or a vision of Shepard thinking thats what Anderson would have done.
Hmmmm...that's a good observation. I've seen some other people saying that they think the final moments were Sheps attempts at a neural interface and opening the arms. Then the reapers are trying to indoctrinate Shep during their neural interface. Some believe the beam was not a teleporter but some neural interface.
Combine that with your observation of Anderson being the one who ACTUALLY pulls the trigger on destroy and it paints a pretty compelling picture. The only thing I don't like about it is that Anderson kinda steals Sheps thunder. Realistically it doesn't matter, do what you gotta do. But narratively it's a bit wack (much like the original endings).
@@alberyy Remember Leviathan? How they were able to make Shepard see things and jump scenes while they were trying to control him?
If you think about it, the space child convinces Shepard to commit suicide by touching the power cables or directly jumping into the beam.
I've always thought that maybe Shepard was dreaming that entire last conversation with Anderson and being there with him -- Anderson's comms are on and he calls out to Shepard, who is unconscious, but he keeps talking because there is nobody else with him. Everything that happens to Anderson is a fabrication of Shepard's mind as a result of what he's hearing while being knocked out. The very last conversation, a lot of Anderson's lines sound like they could be him talking to himself - Of course, other than the ones calling Shepard a great mother/father at which point the theory kind of falls apart but I still think it could work. Otherwise there is absolutely no way Shepard would've survived in ANY of the endings, even in High EMS Destroy - What, he's just gonna fall down to Earth and somehow live through it?
@@genericrandomness3455It would be poetic to be honest. Anderson almost became the first Specter but got character assassinated, so Shepard became one instead. Anderson coming to save the day while Shepard was auto of commission to do the right thing when no else can would have been a cherry on top.
I think Anderson actually made it to the citadel and was talking to Shepard to try and figure out how to work the system. Shepard is clearly struggling with indoctrination and if you choose destroy, Anderson actually fulfills the mission.
We never see Anderson's body but we do see Shepard wake up at the end of the destroy ending.
What if ME4 will begin with Shepard waking up from the "ending" sequence? Bruh
Bruh!!!
That would be too good to be true, we have to acept the fact this game was ruined at the end with illogical plot holes
@@JankyDice96 the worst thing about this is that they could fix this plot holes in the Legendary Edition, but they didn't bother and chose lazy route. This was their chance to fix ME3 endings that our choices would really matter in the end (not just collecting points in warr assets), plot holes and other ME3 flaws like terrible journal, frustating space exploration etc. That really make me concern about ME4, I hope they will give theif best, beacuse antoher flop will surely result in EA closing Bioware and putting their workers in other profitable titles. In that case, we will never see another ME ever again, but I hope it won't happen.
@@michu3763 their "positive surprise" on how well LE sold out is concerning... I don't think they are investing a lot of time and money in next ME because of this and how andromeda flopped. Sad.
me4 begins with ryder waking up
The dreams aren't new attempts to indoctrinate Shepard, they're his previous contacts with the Reapers taking increasing hold in his mind as he has more and more contact with them outside the Normandy.
Saren was literally in a reaper for at a minimum of a few weeks but more likely over a month and can break the reapers hold due to a conversation shepherd has been actively trying to destroy the reapers since mass effect.
Anderson did it. Anderson actually got into the Citadel by himself and stopped the Reapers. Shepard never got on board.
I like this theory, just finished the ME Legacy playthrough and I'd love for them to do something like that.
We do see him briefly, shooting that thing in the Destroy ending and I never got why. I thought Shepard was like "hey, that's something he'd do". But now I think that's actually what really happens. It's just the fact that Bioware never intended this to be the case and it makes the ending shittier and shittier the more we analyze 💀
@@dorellusthagod YESSSS I’m so glad people think the same way I do damn
@@nicolasfonts3194 I forgot I've even left this comment 😂 the "Anderson did it" explanation would be so cool now that I think about it. Everyone worships Shepard so hard it's easy to forget about MFs like Anderson or Bailey. Like smh Bailey is willing to cover for Shepard even when he fucks up hard, like with Wrex in ME3. The real unsung heroes of the trilogy ✌
When the Starchild is talking about the Destroy option you can see Anderson shooting, maybe that's just meant to show what Anderson would have done in your place, but what if that's what acually happend? What if the one who died saving the galaxy was Anderson and the Reapers were trying to indectrinate Shepard to stop him?
Pardon my english.
Thats a new way to approach the ending. That would have been intriguing: Protige vs mentor.
That is interesting
I always thought the purplish armor was the under armor/ body glove that allows it to be completely sealed along with hard points for the over plates. As far as the control panel goes. It is mentioned that there are areas that only the keepers can go to so an entire sub control station (like an engineering bridge on some star ship designs) would make a lot of sense.
That is exactly what I thought
At the start of Mass Effect 3 when we see the child, Shepard is staring at him from a distant window, so I think the idea that only Shepard sees him still stands. The soldier hits the door when it is closed not when the kid climbs in which I think is an important difference. I also thought there was at least a strong similarity between the child and the catalyst hologram!
Yeah I agree, the camera introduces us to the child and then pans to Shep who has been watching them. They child also talks very weirdly. When Shep says they can save the child the child responds by saying they can't go with Shepherd. Why? Why couldn't they go with them?
If the kid really wasn't there though why would there be such a long pause between the last survivor getting in and the door shutting?
anderson couldnt even see the kid lol@@ShaggyDabbyDank
Just one correction, Dan: when you use the Rachni investigation in Bryson lab, it is one of the filters that does NOT help locate the Leviathans’ planet, so there was no correlation between Rachni and Leviathans, which means they were likely indoctrinated by Reapers.
I’d also point out the Rina or Rila Theo... whatever. The asari.
She very well could’ve been following the Reapers’ will the whole trilogy. Helping the Krogan repopulate to help cause more chaos in either situation she was in.
I don't know. The only time in the DLC that we used the Rachni information it is to find that Doctor. That rachni data did not help us find him. It is still possible that Leviathans controlled the Rachni. It is never disproven. It just the Rachni data as EDI says is irrelevant to finding the Doctor.
Don’t forget that the Protheans messed around with the Rachni, which could’ve caused them to become super violent.
Ref Specs I mean, no piece of evidence links the Rachni to the Leviathans, despite extensive research by Bryson. So while the Leviathan’s indoctrinating the Rachni is technically never fully disproven, it has zero evidence and makes absolutely no sense if the Leviathans are trying to remain hidden. The Rachni info in the lab would at least guide you to the artifact Bryson’s daughter was analyzing (or anywhere related to the Leviathans, in fact), but didn’t even do that.
No. Big Fan is right after finishing ME 3 last night, the construct itself states that Leviathan prepared the Rachni for war against the Reapers.
I know Mass Effect 4 will have alot of explaining too do when the game comes out eventually
I have a feeling that game is set centuries later
I think so too. You know why?
Look how much Liara aged!!
She’s a total cougar now
I really hope it doesn't force any choices too be canon too I wanna see how Rannoch is doing now that the Geth and Quarians are working together and I wanna see how the Krogan handled being rid of the genophage (with Wrex in power, Wreav being in power does not bode well)
@@deanmccrorie3461 Asari barley age, just look at Aria, and Liara always had wrinkles if you look close enough on her face especially in 3 were it's more apparent.
@@Crizzly122 I hope so too. It just seems stupid to release LE and possibly allow us to import our saves but then retcon it anyways because it doesn't fit the story they want.
The ending is the only part most will tolerate. Like if my Male Shep did indeed survive. I wanna know that he and Kaidan settled down together and raised a family.
The reason why Control and Synthesis both seem like incredibly bad options despite star child insisting they're fine is that we've seen both set up consistently throughout the series. We KNOW both of those Reaper-related options. Control is being indoctrinated, and Synthesis is being made into a husk at best and part of a reaper at worst. The last choice really does feel like an appeal to Shepard's ego in order to trick him into making a bad choice, just like Saren and the Illusive Man were, and like the vampire tries to do to Shepard in Mass Effect 2.
I'm pretty sure indoctrination theory isn't what the game makers were going for, which is why it doesn't connect all the dots. But it almost feels like it SHOULD have been.
it really should. From the first game onward, Indoctrination is built up as The Reapers' most dangerous weapon, and it's repeatedly harped on as subtle but inexorable, and an inevitable consequence of too much exposure to the Reapers or any of their artifacts. Shepard, meanwhile, repeatedly proves him/herself the champion of humanity and the free thinking galaxy, the cornerstone of resistance to the Reaper agenda. It just makes too much sense that A) Shepard's repeated battles with the Reapers has carried it's own exposure risk, B) given what we're told repeatedly of Reaper tactics, they would at least attempt to indoctrinate Shepard both as general policy and as a specific reaction to how much of a nemesis he's been to them, C) so of course in the final installment of the trilogy, one would expect that all to build to a Shepard vs Indoctrination final fight. The Reapers' best weapon vs galactic civilization's best weapon. Give us the big title bout you've been selling and hyping all this way. Denouement.
Now, who knows what actually happened in BioWare's writing room as staff moves from project to project or even comes or goes from the company itself, or what changes time and budget factors forced them to make along the way. But, given how the first two games are full of signposts that seem to point in this direction, it's little surprise that the audience would expect this factor to be there in the final equation, to want to see it present, to assume Mass Effect's development meant to put it there, and ultimately insist via fan-theory that it is there despite developer protestation that it isn't.
@@JohnDoe-vy6ju it's funny, Illusive man gets fully indoctrinated while we're destroying the collector's base (during final battle) - which's why he begs to keep the place's "tech" - "we can wipe all of them and keep the tech intact" - meaning "wipe all organic life while keeping the reaper alive" - ME3, on the other hand, let's just say, the writers in charge were very incompetent and probably destroyed the continuity of the arc on purpose (very common move from untalented creatives - to undermine others' work to cater to their vanity)
The Space Hamster is a reaper agent
15:20 i don't know if this helps give context, but when you're hitting the Cerberus HQ, you can find video logs of a surgeon begging TIM not to go through with some "procedure" and him insisting on it, without anesthesia. it's implied that he had some sort of surgery with the data the collected on Horizon to make him more powerful.
this video was so incredibly well made!! congrats BIG DAAAN :D
That and the dominate power is a thing, so controlling people isn't a new thing.
If Illusive Man is indoctrinated, why did the Reapers attack Cerberus, maybe the illusive man was right... or am I indoctrinated.
@@davidleejones3312 Reapers are more devious than Salarians! Misdirection was their intent (maybe).
@@davidleejones3312 I think it was more about trying to destroy the research because he stumbled into the idea of disrupting and taking control of indocrinated beings.
He DID take this into account, but his reasoning for it not making sense was because Saren didn't have any of these abilities himself when directly enhanced by a reaper.
Re: the boy, the camera isn't showing us, it pans back to the window and shows Shepard watching from there. And it's not just the soldiers who ignore the boy, there are civilians on that evac shuttle, mere feet away. They stand and do nothing as the boy struggles to get in delaying their departure (assuming he's real and the soldiers are waiting on him). It's not that the soldiers don't help, it's that *nobody* helps. Because the boy is fake.
Exactly my point as well.
In the ME4 trailer, Liara recovers the N7 symbol from a snowy planet that is obviously not Earth (based on the sky), which makes me think that the scene in the trailer is showing Liara's search for Shepard's body after the destruction of the Normandy SR1. We know from ME2 that she was the one who found Shepard's body, and we know that the final resting place of the Normandy SR1 was a snowy/icy planet, much like the one we see in the trailer.
It also makes no sense that she'd be searching for Shepard on an alien planet after the events of ME3, because if Shepard's body was still even recoverable after ME3, it would either be on the remnants of the Citadel/Crucible, in orbit above Earth, or somewhere on Earth itself.
The "Shepard lives" scene also appears to be in a ruined city (presumably London?) and definitely not a snowy alien planet.
What they're trying to tell us exactly with the trailer I don't know, but I know the only way the trailer makes canonical sense is if it takes place between ME1 and ME2. So either there are serious canonical errors in the trailer, or the scene depicted isn't taking place when most people think it's taking place.
I really like the indoctrination theory, but it's obvious they never fully fleshed it out as a true possibility, and because of that, they would need to retcon quite a few things in order to make it work, which, I'll be honest, I don't think they're gutsy enough to do.
About 600yrs have passed. Liara has been confirmed to be older in the trailer. So she's in her matriarch stage. I don't think she'd be looking for shep so far in to the future. Liara would have already found shep.
Why does everyone think N7 meant that it's Shepard's body on that planet? There are plenty of N7 rank soldiers in the Alliance. Drawing a correlation to Shepard would be nice, but not necessarily true.
Heck if 600 years has already passed, it could even mean that's Alec Ryder's suit on Andromeda, provided if they can retcon how Liara (and a dead Reaper) get there in the first place.
@@Feyrerei has she been confirmed to be older?
@@blake7086 nope
Sorry bud but you missed some really glaring evidence in the trailer that completely destroys your idea that the scene was set between ME1 and ME2, which is the giant dead Reaper in the background as she is climbing up the snowy hill...... There cannot be a dead Reaper there if its set between ME1 and ME2. Its clearly post ME3 and the Reapers have been destroyed. I also don't think its London though, fyi. The planet is wrong.
Furthermore, its established in the canon that the Shadowbroker recovered Shepard's body and was selling him/her to the Collectors. Miranda and Liara worked together to stop this and steal Shepard's body back, Liara then let Cerberus have it on the promise they would try to bring Shep back.
My theory on the trailer is that it is infact many 100's of years after ME3 and that Liara is not actually going to be a big part of the story, she'll be a shadowy figure, almost a myth in the Galaxy at this point. She is collecting stuff like that N7 armor out of nostalgic purposes, she does collect things like that, her apartment had Prothean artifacts, and artwork of Ilos etc. It would make sense that she would make a museum for Shep. Perhaps the players character will need to try to find her for some reason, which then kicks off a larger plot as she exposition dumps for you.
I think it's clear that the writers of the original game clearly meant for the Indoctrination Theory to be part of the main plot of the series (there is a ton of information about it in the original game because of the main antagonist's transformation and Shepherd's initial exposure to the first beacon, which is where his indoctrination started) and it was lost along the way as they couldn't decide how to actually end the final game.
A big part of this is the lack of drew Karp in me3, it's why alot of the plots for 2 weren't in 3, the ending would have been better if he was part of the main writing team.
I agree 100%. Saren's role in the story is showing how such a incredible decorated loyal skilled warrior can fall to Indoctrination. It was the main focal point of the 1st game and is not just a side plot. Saren's shadow is cast over the entire series in Shepard's mind and fate.
Also, modified Shepard would explain why he is so exceptional…
…and how his talking convinces so many people: indoctrination!
@@musaran2 This is a good point. Do we know what tech Cerberus used to "reanimate" Shepard? It must've been some advanced technology, possibly Reaper. Him being able to subtly indoctrinate unconsciously to gain near god-like levels of persuasion and leadership is interesting.
I've always seen indoctrination theory as quite good. It also works well to explain the ending, so long as you change one key part of the theory. My alteration goes like this:
-Shepard is NOT dreaming after getting hit by Harbinger.
-He survives the blast, barely, and makes it to the citadel.
-Once at the Citadel, he has his conversation with the Illusive Man. Anderson, however, is only in his mind, a symbol of his resistance to the Reapers.
-After the scene plays out, he goes to the console and opens the Citadel's arms.
-The Crucible docks, and Hackett sends the message to Shepard that it isn't firing, telling him it must be something that Shepard must do on his end.
-THIS is where things begin to happen entirely in Shepard's head.
-Just as the Illusive man wanted to save Earth, but couldn't bring himself to open the Citadel's arms, Shepard hesitates at the control console.
-In his mind, the sequence with the Starchild plays out, as the Reapers press in on his mind, trying to confuse Shepard and steer him away from his goal - Destroying the Reapers.
-In the Control Ending or the Synthesis Ending, we can assume that things "apparently" work out okay, until we remember that societies dependent on the Reapers always die when the Reapers return to dark space. They are certainly patient enough to feign cooperation or subservience for a few centuries until nobody can live without them. Makes conquering the galaxy easy for them. In Control, I imagine Shepard's mind would still be slowly getting eroded by the Reapers, even as he seemingly controlled them.
-In the Refusal Ending, Shepard lashes out in rage and confusion, breaking the console and destroying any hope of firing the Crucible.
-Finally, in the Destroy ending, he stays focused on his 3-game-long mission, ignores those voices in his mind that whisper of alternate solutions, and does the one thing that he knows for certain will end the reaper threat. He blinks away the fog of indoctrination and uses the console to activate the Crucible for its intended purpose: ending the war by destroying the Reapers.
-So really, the only part that was completely in his mind was the Starchild scene.
-The post credits scene of Shepard breathing can be on Earth or the Citadel. I just assume that where he was standing did not blow up, and wherever he is still has atmosphere.
That's how I balance the official endings with the Indoctrination Theory.
I like this explanation. It also fits that the "Starchild" (really a hallucinatory manifestation of Indoctrination) would be lying about the "Destroy" ending necessarily killing EDI and the Geth. It always seemed really bizarre that the weapon would necessarily kill *all* synthetics, like a big indiscriminate EMP; and while this may be meta-thinking, that always seemed unnecessarily cruel to the player after how much might be invested in them. But it completely fits that the Reapers might seek to sway Shepherd (at least a Paragon-Shepherd) away from destroying them outright with this very kind of attached cost.
@@Don-ol8ze I really don't get why people are so bothered in destroying synthetics. sure, some may have achieved consciousness but we're talking about the fate of the organics here, technology can be remade, replicated even. that's why Synthesis and Control doesn't sit well with me one bit. because overpopulation is going to be a huge problem with Synthesis and Control just feels like Shepard is just "giving in" to the Reapers.
I really like this version of things!
@@Don-ol8ze my opinion is that the starchild was not completely wrong about the total synthetic annihilation. The Crucible was intended to get rid of anything that's connected to the Reapers, probably including their tech (the Citadel, mass relays, etc.); and given the fact that EDI and the Geth bear traces of Reaper tech in them, they should be destroyed as well (even tho these traces exist only on software level). But if there is any other tech that isn't based on Reapers, it should remain unaffected. We still don't know if Shepard's implants are made with the same Reaper-like tech; if it's true, then in case of red ending our commander must have been dead or really badly damaged at very least.
Hey Big Dan, also don't forget that as soon as the Shepard, Anderson, TIM conversation starts, you hear endless whispering start immediately and only stop once TIM is dealt with.
"Look at the power they wield. Look at what they can do!" Is when the whispers are loudest and the oily tentacles are most on the screen. In addition to "they" being the Reapers that whole moment is more sinister than it seems.
I think that the indoctrination theory sound so appealing is because it offers an explanation to the infamous dream sequences present in the game. Normally they are never properly addressed by shepard or the story itself. I guess it was a cool way for the developer to show how much stress shepard was experiencing, which makes sense, but this plot thread never lead to anything, there is no huge payoff like shepard making a mistake due to seeing the child or something like that. You can remove these sequences from the game and nothing would change
-Bodies at the beam, because that’s where Reapers were transporting them to the citadel. Which is why the beam was even there to begin with.
-Sour Yellow note could be the Reaper Horn, heard throughout the game and is present in Shepard’s dreams.
-Seeing the boy playing with the ship at the start of the game, is still being viewed by Shepard. Just not strictly from his POV. He sees the boy from his window.
I'd call the reaper "bwwaaaahhhh" a brown note personally, but that works
When the boy runs to the shuttle, there are some adults getting in before him and the cutscene makes a point of showing other people helping them to the shuttle. When boy gets there, they just stand there
19:00 actually some claim that there are hidden sounds in the track that are at pitches you can’t hear but are known to cause feeling of anxiety. There is research to back this being possible in the real world too. It’s a scary and fascinating topic. The sour yellow note may be a sound humans can’t hear but are affected by.
A possible example I read about was a “haunted” house that caused those to enter to hallucinate nightmares and experience some eye pain. Decades later it was discovered that an old fan system had a grinding frequency that resonated with certain parts of the eye. Upon disabling the fan the were no more reports of hauntings. Can’t remember where this was however. If this gets a bunch of replies asking I’ll put more effort to find it.
Please
Yeah I didn't like his dismissal of the Rachni queen evidence because we don't get a blatant "sour yellow note" Umm human do not communicate like Rachni. We can't even really comprehend how they communicate and the Queen can't even really put into words an explanation that Shepard understands. Of course to me I thought the sour yellow note was the big loud horn sound that reapers make. Not a very subtle way to get in people heads but it may do that. If a reaper lands on a planet and blares that noise on the surface Humans (as an example) Might just be in pain from the loud noise....but tied to that loud noise is a subliminal sound.
@@xtremejay2000 then why factor anything about her description of indoctrination, a description that already is suspect because it was the Leviathan that were indoctrinating them and we don't know how different that is to Reaper indoctrination. So her description should be thrown out as it only applies to the Rachni and possibly only to being controlled by Leviathan
@@Aurelius-bf3yx i get what you are trying to say but there is no lore that says the leviathan indoctrinated the rachni. That one doc in the dlc theorizes that but then something else in that dlc contradicts it. I don't remember all the details but someone else in the comments this video explained in detail that that character was wrong about the leviathan theory.
@@xtremejay2000 I’d also like to point out that Harbinger is the only reaper with yellow eyes. No other reaper has them. And it’s not bright sunny yellow either. It’s an old colored yellow that looks ancient, like sour mustard.
My own indoctrination theory is not so much about Shepard, but the player themselves. I'd wager that the vast majority of people on their first playthrough of ME3, got the same empty feeling in their gut as I did, when they got confused at what was happening and selected the blue (control) paragon path where Shepard didn't make it. It wasn't until my second playthrough-this time as a renegade, that I realized the red renegade choice was the real best ending, and that I had been "conditioned" to believe the blue choice was the safe/best ending. The game messed with my head and in a moment of confusion, I chose wrong. The entire trilogy is about destroying the reapers, and the player -not Shepard, is tricked (indoctrinated) into making the wrong choice at the most critical time. I don't know if the devs continue to try and keep this a mystery, so as to prevent it from ruining the "indoctrination" of future first-time players, but it would explain how this amazing series could have such a bizarre ending... an ending that tries to literally think "outside the box" (or in this case, outside the game itself), while leaving things open to interpretation - like a true sci-fi. Maybe I'm overthinking things in an attempt to deny that empty gut feeling I mentioned earlier, but this theory of mine hit me the second that Shepard drew breath on the renegade ending, and totally worked for me in the "mind-blown" sort of way. Absolutely love this series.
Destroy ending just feels great even though it only sounds like it has downsides xD
I think that getting indoctrinated in the end would have been amazing. I mean, the players called out characters for being clearly indoctrinated and Reapers tricking players into a "safer" choice would have shown their real power. They are massive and powerful but in the end it's their ability to weasel their way into mind of others is what makes they really dangerous - all parts of the trilogy are about it.
I was nervous about destroy ending when I first played, but I just couldn't shake off the feeling that I'm being tricked by the Star Child. EDI, Legion and the Geth are the main reason why I hesitated. But then I saw Shepard breathing even though he was "likely to die cause cybernetics" and I was convinced I was right in the end.
People can complain about the ending, but everyone has to admit that it caused a lot of dialogue among the community.
In my first playthrough I only had destroy or control, synthesis wasn't even an option I don't know why but it didn't appear until my second playthrough carrying the save data. I chose destroy as my first ending even though I didn't get the perfect destroy until I repeated the game again with max war assets, still, I'm glad I wasn't indoctrinated as a player!
The "green" and "blue" endings (Synthesis and Control) are quite literally solutions the indoctrinated franchise villains (Saren and the Illusive Man) were seeking. That's not even some conspiracy or a fan theory, that's a fact. That's should be more than enough never to touch anything other the Destroy ending, even if it's all real and not a dream.
@@giorgialadashvili4771 I agree, it should have been enough to simply select the Destroy option, but I believe it went beyond the reapers just tricking Shepard, or Shepard being indoctrinated - because the player was still the one making the choices. There was something else at play here: the Paragon and Renegade colors that were now present for the first time, within the actual ME universe (not just as part of a color-coded dialog option). The reapers/Illusive man/Saren would have no awareness of these color choices because it wasn't technically part of the ME universe - it was always there strictly for the players themselves to distinguish between what was "good" and "bad". I believe the developers did this to confuse the player specifically - who, up to that point, had been conditioned (or indoctrinated) to see red and think it is the "bad ending" choice.
What about the crucible child appearing as the child in Shepard's memories and dreams? Perhaps it's evidence that Harbinger used something from Shepard's mind to coax him into succumbing
and Mass Effect 1's Codex for Indoctrination details Mass Effect 3's dreams precisely.
There was no indoctrination, only reused elements that were already developed for the games. Like the only kid model, and like "Ash body" that was already seen in ME2 Collector ship.
@@hansybarra Doesnt Explain why they put the extra effort to put oily shadows in dreams or Shepard waking up in destroy ending
@@1vaultdweller Because they had nothing to explain since it was just smokey people figures and whispers that only represented formless third parties in a dream, and that's it. Black silhouettes is a pretty common characteristic of nightmares.
What they mean about oily shadows and discordance is what you can see and heard when Shepard was being controlled by illusive man. Besides, even the Catalyst itself mention that it won't work if they controlled Shepard, that mention for some reason the indoctri-theorists tend to forget.
@@hansybarra Wait, that doesnt answer my question at all. Oily shadows were established by the game earlier as an indoctrination symptom. Not just a random dream symptom. Duh
And, Catalyst lies. It's obviously there to manipulate Shepard into choosing synthesis, which is basically Reaper's main goal. It's appearance as the kid from dreams is the undeniable fact that Reapers are already in Shepard's mind
Just to point this out, Liara is not on Earth in the ME4 trailer when she finds the N7 helmet visor. At least I don't remember Earth having 3 moons. Not sure what Shepard's visor is doing on whatever planet that is, if it even is Shepard's at all.
yeah my thoughts exactly!
Could it be Alec Ryder’s armor? He was in N7.
@@harlowethrombey7665 I don't think so. It's definitely Liara in the trailer, why would she be looking for mementos of Ryder? I don't think she even knows him. Not personally, at least.
@@Handelo She does know Ryder. There are voice logs in the Andromeda game where she corresponded with him about her Prothean research. I’m not sure if she ever met him personally, but they have at least spoken with one another.
maybe liara finds alecs n7 armor there after a few years since the terraforming device is broken and they want to terraform that planet in the old way (andromeda story)
But how did a reaper get there? If the reaper was there (in andromeda) then why is it dead. The anti reaper weapon was only in the milkyway. If it would reach further, then they had no pathfinder ai in andromeda.
I picked this game up over the weekend & I am playing through this series again. I got to the part where Saren shoots himself because he finally realizes he is indoctrinated. Like damn, I really think the Indoctrination theory would have been a brilliant twist on the scale of ME1's twist, if they had done it right. A 'come full circle' type of ending too with a throw back to ME1.
Even if unintentional by Bioware, this is still my headcanon!
Regarding the 'sour yellow note': Unlike other species, Rachni seem to associate music with people/communicating. In ME1, she mentions the music ending for the asari she's controlling & how most humans are 'colorless'. When I was replaying & heard the 'sour yellow note', it made me think of reaper noises &, in particular, Harbinger and how his thralls eyes always turn yellow when he's 'assuming direct control'. Also, Shep's dreams with those creepy shadowy figures makes me think of the ghostly presences talked about in the Codex for Reaper Indoctrination & 'oily shadows' mentioned by the Rachni queen in ME1.
24:35 And I didn't know the catalyst could sound like that if you refused. Creepy O_o That sounds like Harbinger to me!
Also, didn't know that Shepard's eyes start glowing BLUE at the end of Control/Synthesis. Dang. Drives the point home even more for me.
Regardless of what Bioware says, what they SHOW is that Shepard is being indoctrinated imo.
So I still headcanon that it is an indoctrination attempt once he literally falls unconscious & gets beamed up to Reaper boy & is somehow in space without a helmet.. A final push by Harbinger to manipulate him to pick the other choices as he is firing up the Crucible. It is kinda funny/ironic if someone picks Control when 10 minutes ago you were trying to charm/intimidate the Illusive man not to do it. The Indoctrination codex entry says the "resulting control over the limbic system leaves the victim highly susceptible to its suggestions". Also, the Illusive man & Saren of course didn't know they were indoctrinated when making their plans to save the galaxy from the Reapers.. so why would Shepard?
And of course, it is the only one where Shep survives, even in the original ending without any extended cut updates/dlc.
Personally, in regards to what would happen after Shepard wakes up in the rubble during the Destroy ending, then the ending would proceed as normal. Shepard makes it to the beam, activates the Crucible, and then we would see the normal Destroy ending from there. Basically it's just a short, out of order clip, that signified Shepard made it.
Remember that hours in dreams, are only a few minutes in real time usually. Shepard might've only been unconscious for a minute or two, dreamt the whole star child sequence, then woke up and did it for real.
If it is a dream, it would not be easy to tell. One of the major themes of Mass Effect is mind manipulation. People say it is dream, others say it isn’t a dream. I say we don’t know
Shepperd does have reaper contact on the Normandy, the reaper iff!
That is if it wasn't already removed.
Don’t forget the husk head you get to keep too lol
James Vega: "Do you hear that hum?"
@@blaze_unleashed7286 I could be remembering wrong, but I'm pretty sure it's mentioned that they still have the Reaper IFF on board the Normandy in the third game.
Its removed during the retrofits between 2 and 3
All it did was allow them to use the Omega Relay, and thats not needed anymore
One thing that should be kept in mind regarding the dreams is this: Shepards confrontation with the illusive man, regardless of whether hallucination or real, begins with Shepard and Anderson being manipulated, in which the player can hear a cacophony of Whispers for some time. In Shepards dreams, there are whispers that you cant quite make out when approaching the “oily shadow”. In the second dream in particular, if one waits and does not approach the little boy, the shadows will surround him and whisper incessantly with the same contextual sound as the illusive man encounter. So regardless of the ending being real or fake, something is messing with Shepards mind
A bit of a bonus: one can also hear the sounds of grunting machines roaring in the second dream while the shadows are surrounding the kid. The only other time I hear these sounds is when Javik(who is aware of the reapers manipulative powers) grabs shepard and states: “I since fear and anxiety in you….the reapers are winning.” Winning what? Was he able to determine the outcome of a war by just touching one person…. Or was Javik eluding to something?
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I think Javik says that if you recruit him after Thessia. That’s him sensing Shepard’s fear and anxiety, as he says, due to failing to save a whole planet. The Reapers are also ravaging the entire galaxy and hope is running out, which is what he would mean by “The Reapers are winning.” If Javik sensed that the Reapers were winning in the sense that he was being indoctrinated, he would have either straight up said it, or, more likely, tried to kill him.
@@jshrhrgahhuehtnmppl Javik actually says that when you first speak to him after meeting him on Eden Prime. Its very vague and cryptic, but I think Bioware did that on purpose. The tricky thing is that it would make sense for Javik to just tell him, but this is a game, and if the theme of shepard also being manipulated is actually true, then it would spoil the fun of Bioware messing with us. He might not even be referring to indoctrination when he says it to shepard, he could just mean if you are scared of them then you already lost.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 i know, but I mean he might be saying it if you go to Eden Prime after Thessia
Technically, EDI's AI Core is created from Reaper tech. Or at least one of the videos on Cronos talks about her being created with Reaper Tech. There is actually a throw away line with James Vega that also suggests Indoctrination. The Conduit on the Citadel, as well as a few other pieces of Reaper Tech, have a humming sound to them. At several points, you can talk to Vega in the shuttle bay and he will ask if anyone else can hear that hum, suggesting Reaper Tech exposure.
As for the armour being different when he's hit by the Reaper Beam, I just always assumed that was the under padding of the armour, that the rest of it burned off in the hit.
Well, we all know that this theory is a way to cope with the game's failure to deliver due to troubled production.
It's a good reading - but the main problem, like any good conspiracy, is that it gives much more credit to the writers and designers than they deserve -_-
I disagree, because this attitude argues that BioWare, a developer famous for well written RPGs, is suddenly not up to the task of providing a well written conclusion to just one game among their otherwise impressive catalogue of titles.
It’s like saying BioWare were good writers for 99.999% of the Mass Effect trilogy, but then couldn’t manage the final 0.001%.
I’m not saying it’s impossible, I’m just saying it gives them too little credit.
@@rowantritton8659 unfortunately, that's pretty much what happened - the troubled development of ME3, and the change in direction in ME2, are well known facts :( It's clear ME3 had a few writing teams that just didn't sync properly and didn't have enough time to polish the story - so they went for the "let's just get it done", without the necessary prolonged back and forth discussion.
The inconsistency in dialog, character development and story is very clear all over ME3 - and it's not surprising that the end would suffer most from rushing to release.
Biware under EA is not the same Bioware as it was in the past. We've learned that lesson the hard way over the years. :(
@@st2rseeker who was BioWare prior to EA?
Sure Baldur’s Gate I & II and KOTOR are great titles, with Mass Effect, Neverwinter Nights and Jade Empire being mostly fine (and I never played Shattered Steel or MDK2), but the majority of their best work (and Sonic Chronicles: The Dark Brotherhood) was still under EA’s banner and it’s clear that when EA are willing to back off and give BioWare longer development cycles that all we’ll get in return are inferior products like Anthem and Andromeda… or SWTOR, which I love.
@@thecrossbow3370 nice copypasta
@@thecrossbow3370 no, you’ve posted it at least twice now under posts I’ve written.
I think that you leave out some of the key points;
Destroy is the ONLY option that has been advocated from the start - throughout the series we are shown the effects of indoctrination. Saren believes that working with the Reapers is an option, the Illusive Man believes controlling them is an option. The Prothean VI on Thesia says that a splinter group fractured their line of battle by advocating for another scenario other than destroy. All these people were clearly indocrinated, and everything other than destroy works towards the Reapers benefit.
Leviathan state catagorically that Shepherds victories are more than a product of chance because they're single minded. At no point in the first games and until the end does Shepherd toy with any other option than destroy, and thus they're resisting indoctrination. But no-one can avoid the effects of indoctrination. That is stated clearly also.
Shep has been around Reaper tech for years, all of which has the ability to indoctrinate. It stands to reason that Shep will eventually feel the effect of this. That their resolve would be tested. In the end they're under extreme stress. Control and synthesis are both Reaper wins, as is refusal as that is admitting defeat. Destroy represents Sheps will to defeat the Reapers. Not to keep them around, not to control them and not to submit to them. It is the single-minded resolve to finish them off.
Indoctrination doesn't appear to work the same with everyone. Some are easy to indoctrinate, while others seem to resist for years. Ultimately indoctrination finds a way through though, and it does this by getting the target to see things the Reaper's way. That doesn't mean agree with the Reapers, that just means see things in a way that benefits the Reapers. The moment the subject surrenders to this they are lost...
...but how do you reflect this in gameplay? Have a simple option where there is clearly a right and wrong answer? That seems to obvious, and is not really a challenge. The only way to simulate indoctrination is to present the player with plausible sounding choices that all deviate from the one option that, from the first game, has been the goal of Shep, the thing that led to success before, the reason why they're a threat and the only outcome that has been shown to be the solution for over 10 hours of gameplay. Destroy. Everything else has been demonstrated to be a death sentence for the races, why would Shep be immune to that fate? They wouldn't.
The reason Shep is a threat is that they want to destroy, and destroy is the choice that has gotten you all the way to this point. Wouldn't it be odd that, after spending 100+ hours the game designers placed 3 equally valid options as the solution. 2 of which have been shown to be the goal of indoctrinated people, and the only solution to result in a survive cut scene is the one that sticks to the plan that got Shep through to the end anyway? And only when uniting the whole galaxy, which I also believe to be a measure of indoctrination within the game world. Shep is willing to go to any lengths to defeat the Reapers, and it has been shown that they decapitate the leadership to prevent uniting the galaxy. That means a united galaxy is a threat, and Reapers can be killed. Therefore, Shep attacking the Reapers early can be viewed as a form of indoctrination. They attack before they're ready, due to being so despirate to save Earth.
IMO the control option is the giveaway that this is in Sheps mind, the statement that the Illusive Man was right, but he couldn't do it because he was controlled is an obvious clue. Everyone else that Shep has ever met could not control the Reapers because they were indoctrinated, in addition to the countless billions of people in the cycles before Shep, but Shep is special in this regard that he can control them because they have told him that he isn't indoctrinated...remember how Saren thought his mind was his own?
In the end I think IDT is the ending that makes the most sense, and it is the one I still choose to believe.
whispers? we hear them during fight with illusive man, we also hear them with indoctrination. the codex entry says a lot too.
They are also heard in dream sequences. In the second dream, let the shadows surround the little boy and just listen… game over for those that dismiss the idea that Shepard is being manipulated. The whispers sound just like the Illusive mans control sequence. Whether ending was real or a dream doesn’t even matter, the whispers prove Shepard was being manipulated
@@sagearmaggedon7307 agreed
the moment Anderson appeared in the apartment, the boy disappeared and there was also a growling.
Not to mention that one can say Shepards reaction after Anderson walks away seems to be one of confusion as he looks down towards the ground and we hear the reaper growl sound a second time. Also, the boy appears at least twice next to some form of a caution sign.
My read was always that everything until Shepard is lifted up to the Star Child is real. That scene is in his head. Choosing Control or Synthesis is giving into indoctrination, but if you choose destroy, Shepard sees herself destroying the whatever it was but in the real world is making it to the panel to activate the catalyst. The whole star child scene was just the reapers reaching out to his mind, and they chose that image of the child because they saw that he represented all the people lost on Earth to her.
Well you have a furry avatar so take anything you say with a grain of salt :p
@@DutchGuyMike how come?
@@BuckySeifert Was actually just trying to rile you up as furries often get mad from personal experience through accusations but it failed and backfired on me :D
@@DutchGuyMike that's fair, sometimes I like riling people up myself
@@BuckySeifert I like your name btw, Bucky (I never heard it before)
You forgot to mention that the child survived a building getting super heat and exploding, that is one of the critical parts to the idea that the kid is just a figment of Shepherds imagination.
Yes, the whole building was consumed by the force and impact of a laser, fired from a sovereign class capital ship that is capable of one shotting aliance dreadnaughts. Not to mention that the kid hid in a ventilation duck, which is made of metal….which conducts heat. Honestly, sometimes it seems like naysayers are reaching harder to disprove the theory than those that support it. Kid should be dead. Also he does run through a locked door which I find interesting.
One more thing. It is also intriguing that the reapers attention is placed on wherever the kid is. Why even blow up that building. Thats a bit of reach on my part, but it’s interesting
The Anderson argument easily is the strongest point of the theory. It’s even hard to say it’s a gameplay thing because technically him being there isn’t a big thing that’s needed (although it is nice) it truly doesn’t make any sense at all and really is a immersion break in game
That and the star child being so freaking biased
Star-Child voice change when you refuse them seems so blatant too.
Also Star-Child was actually voiced by combining Mark Meer and Jennifer Hale voices, almost sounds like they're using Shepard own subconscious to convince themselves. Before they turn on Reaper voice if you shot them in the face.
Imo it's the excellent writing where Saren and Illusive man match the two bad options, that is most convincing. The eyes just reinforce what occurs when Shepard gives in. Those details throw the 'bad writing' dismissal out of the ring. Those little details indicate talent and effort, not laziness. Although I did find the subtitles switching to 'admiral Anderson' all of a sudden to be a very odd detail.
@@pagetvido1850 Indeed. Thats a lot of “whoops we didnt mean to do that “if thats the case. The Illusive man being indoctrinated and Saren as well, and both of these options leading to Shepards eyes, (which are the window to the soul) having the same design is a dead give away that this is a manipulation attempt. Cold hard evidence
Clevernoob’s three part documentary of the Indocrination Theory is a very interesting series to watch if anyone is interested. Just a reminder that it was all made in 2012
Yeah, part of why there's no account in IT of what happens after Shepard wakes up is cause it was largely based on the idea that the "real" ending would be DLC. The documentary was before any postgame DLC, so it couldn't take any of that into account.
@@liamclarke91 there is no post game dlc that affects the theory, except Leviathan
@@TheEaglesnake Yeah. Doesn't change the fact that the theory was made with the assumption that the true ending would come.
@@liamclarke91 It wasn't. The Idea was that it was a dream.Some believed and thought it would make sense if a true ending came.
I could be wrong but recently on a play through of ME2 I believe I noticed Phoenix armor on a bunch of dead bodies inside the collector ship mission. I’m guessing the piles of bodies could be a reused asset left over from ME2.
it is indeed, as many other textures that are often reused in all the trilogy
@@alessiodaniotti264This is why i think these theories are silly and kinda pointless. People overthinking reused textures. The true ending is what the player wants it to be
@@Mattyjp28 for me the "real" story is the one that the devs means to build... obbiously from the perfect representation of that story and what they manage to build there are flaws due to the machine and time limitatons. But using some details as bases from strange theories when they are clearly tricks to speed up the game development (like reused textures or scenes with default equipment different from our selected one), or related to game mechanics and semplification of the gameplay, is overthinking... expecially when the story itself help to clear who is indoctrinated from various factors (the main ones are the prothean devices that sense it, in particular Vigil on ilos and the prothean IV found on Thessia)
The only thing partialy left to the gamer interpretation are the psicological and emotional repercussions on the characters, especially on Shep.
But since this is a trilogy where the player must make several choiches with moral implication, this is natural.
The dream on ME3 for me are clearly symptoms of some psicological wounds, but the reason behind could be different from a playthrough to another (a full paragon could feal the pain of the losses of friends, a full renegade, expecially one that during the games killed Wrex and/or Mordin, could sense guilt or regret)
There is one more thing towards indoctrination theory... during the mission on Virmire, when you fight Saren for the first time, Shepard hesitates as Saren flies away and the camera does something strange (a little blur and shake thingy). Mind you, that this planet was an indoctrination study facility for Saren and Shepard had some time there. Time spent there was really short, so it feels like stretching it a bit... but it had to start somewhere, right? :)
Lol still remember being utterly convinced of this back when ME3 launched. Good times. Still wild to me how the extended cut somehow made the ending even more weird with that bizarre extraction scene of your squad mates if your EMS is high enough. Literally the most jarring, out of place scene in the entire trilogy IMO. Especially if you bring EDI...
i remember choosing Synthesis before seeing anything online and in that moment as the face melts away i thought "oh i f*cked up. thats a Husk. I chose Be A Husk"
@@bryanb2886 same man. Anyone who is angry at the indoctrination theory was mad that they the player got tricked. I think it was awesome.
Same!! I initially picked it bc it was supposed to be an option that opened up if our war assets were high enough so it was supposed to be the 'good' choice. Hated it & reloaded & picked Destroy. Fun times lol@@bryanb2886
Mass effect needs more love and thank God people like you are actually giving it more love and attention
Mass Effect has always had plenty of love. It NEEDS to get it's sh*t together before the next game releases.
@@keskes1338 I'm mainly referring to the fact it seems to always get screwed over by EA like you said it needs to get it's shit together but for that you need a development team that actually gives a shit
When Shepard interfaces with the beam, it takes me back to how Shepard was able to mentally process the geth server when he was working with Legion to disable the geth squadron. It was modified to make sense for Shepard to navigate the server. When Shepard made it to the beam, he interfaced with it and that is what happened in his mind to interface with the citadel. That is why he is alive back on Earth with the destroy ending. (Only my take)
The problems with the staffs' dismissal of the Indoctrination Theory are numerous:
1) Various staff have made conflicting reports on who was responsible for the initially released ending, with some alledging that Mac Walters rewrote it in a month following a leak and others (including Mac Walters) having blamed Casey Hudson for deciding what the final product would be.
2) What the ending was originally meant to be is still unclear? With things such as the Extended Cut allegedly being closer to Mac Walters' original vision along with changes reflecting the backlash, then we have Casey Hudson's infamous "It’s not even in any way like the traditional game endings, where you can say how many endings there are or whether you got ending A, B, or C.....The endings have a lot more sophistication and variety in them" and then we've also seen stuff like the mutated Illusive Man boss battle in the art books and heard of Drew's 'dark energy' ending.
3) Even if none of the writers intended for the peculiarities that the Indoctrination Theory is built from, that wouldn't stop the people actually coding and developing assets for the game from putting them into the finished product. Perhaps they were remnants of an older build that these artists had no interest in tossing away so quickly or perhaps they were added in protest to the revised endings or to 'BioWare Magic' (crunch). Easter Eggs such as this aren't uncommon, although I admit they're rarely this prominantly featured.
Because of all this, along with the travesties that were Anthem and Andromeda, I don't think we should rush to just accept anything BioWare have to say regarding Mass Effect 3's ending as fact, they've lied and changed their stories on a number of occasions and were even investigated in multiple countries over the ending from concerns of false advertising.
For those interested, various suspect prerelease quotes about Mass Effect 3 and its ending have been compiled here:
www.reddit.com/r/masseffect/comments/r9z84/developer_quotes_premass_effect_3_release/
Indeed. It seems to me that no one could agree on how to end Mass Effect 3, and that's we got the mess we did.
I think it all comes down to the game collapsing under the weight of it's own ambition. By the end of game 2 there were so many threads and loose ends, that tying everything off in a satisfying and logical way must have seemed a near impossible task, especially given the time constraints placed on BioWare.
Considering BioWare’s most recent reply is to say that wasn’t ever the intention of how the ending should be understood, I’m going to believe them.
Considering there’s a Mass Effect sequel in the works, it’s very likely this most recent write off of the indoctrination theory will play into the next game. So that is now the end all be all regardless of speculation otherwise.
@@WhiteInk47 Chris Hepler is not Bioware, he is a minor ex writer who left Bioware 8 years ago.
Indeed. Statements will be overwritten by evidence.
Besides the IT simply falls in too well with random bits and pieces they for some reason left in the game, like vanishing anderson on the citadel, piles of bodies popping into existance near the beam, keeper on the citadel taking coats's helmet off. Too many of those things that can't be explained as lazy writing or Bioware not being "smart enough". They were already pressed for time, so why the hell add those extra unnecessary things to the ending if they didn't at least imply that shepard may not be really seeing what he's seeing.
I've always thought it was interesting that you go almost 3 whole games trying to whatever it takes to destroy the Reapers. Then in the last 20 minutes of Mass Effect 3 people are like maybe we can control them, or worse maybe we can all get along.
I know! It pisses me off because clearly Destroy is the right and only choice it should be made.
Because the game never gave you just one choice
the goal from Mass Effect 1 to Mass Effect 3 was to figure out a way to stop the Reapers
there are multiple ways you can stop somebody that's why every ending you see the reapers are stopped. whether you destroy them you control them or everybody merges into cybernetic organism
The Reapers Campaign Of Destruction is stopped
I've always found destroy to be the biggest F yoy moment in the game because I spent two-and-a-half games learning about the conflict between quarians and the geth brokering peace between the two races disproving the Reapers theory that synthetic and Organics cannot get along....just to turn around and wipe them out......hell no
Control all the way.
I refuse to choose any of the three *obvious* choices, @@wickedangelo4526. I love the option of shooting to kill the Starchild or otherwise choosing to finish the Reaper War on your own. This defaults to the "Every spacefaring species in the Milky Way Galaxy has been Harvested. The Cycle has been fully restored." Ending.
ME3 indoctrinates the player. Those who pick Control agree with TIM. Those who pick Synthesis agree with Saren.
What do TIM and Saren have in common? They’re both indoctrinated and implanted with Reaper tech. Their words can’t trusted.
It’s almost like the latter two options didn’t seem viable until the very end.
13:50 The way we see the Citadel control panel in first game is at a different location high on the council tower. Now flip your perspective of the Citadel. You are now on the underside of the tower with a secret master control. You are where the crucible connects to make the platform you collapse on raise up to that silly ending.
"We weren't that smart" 🤣
That cracked me up too! 😅
Something about the theory I've always found compelling that I'm not sure has ever been mentioned is how dejected and hopeless Shepard seems to be at the start of Mass Effect 3. I understand seeing what happened on Earth is ... disheartening, but I've always believed Shepard has seen so much that he would be able to weather this pain without it taking such an outward effect on him. I've always interpreted his loss of hope as lingering influence from his encounter with Object Rho, coupled with his forced isolation from his closest friends. What's coolest about this is that when he reunites with Ashley (I only saved Kaidan once), Liara and Garrus -- they pick him back up again in your conversations with them. These discussions seem to have a powerful impact on him, and he returns to a more hopeful (albeit tortured) state of mind for the remainder of the third game. It's hard for me to accept that Shepard would ever give up hope (or worse: outwardly project even a modicum of hopelessness). I have found it easier to accept that this is due to the influence of ongoing attempts to indoctrinate him and that, with the support of his friends, he is able to weather and emerge from the storm. I find this interpretation beautiful.
If only Tali had been there to support us in those moments at the beginning of the third game too. ;-D
I always see his loss as.
Shepard, doesn't know how to lose.
In every fight Shepard is in, they win.
They go on a mission that everyone says is suicide, and (if you do it right) nobody even dies on it)
I've always seen ME3 sad shepard as them finally losing something, and not really knowing how to deal with it.
Shepards entire career is based on finding the impossible, and wining anyways.
But ME3 is full of losses and only minor gains.
If the evidence wasn't circumstantial then the secret of the ending would be too obvious.
The catalyst is part of the Reapers.
Harbinger leaving only creates one possible explanation.
And yeah, Shepard living in only one ending makes perfect sense.
I love that “The Adventures of Shepard & Vakarian” poster!
HANDS DOWN BEST BIG DAN VIDEO SO FAR!
amazingly puted together! very well produced!
congratulations! its awesome!
Dan doesn't subsribe to the Indoctrination theory though. although the documentaries I watched appear to have a compelling case for shepard slowly becoming indoctrinated.
It has left a lot of people divided
Yes, it kinda falls apart at the end BUT maybe what they're hinting with that last shepards breath it's that he will stand again and do what he dreamed, and since it requires to have all war assets to be able to see that scene, it's may be because while shepard it's fighting indoctrination, the rest are fighting back the reapers and protecting the crucible, since you have every force the galaxy can offer, they manage to give shepard time to actually go and open the citadels arms and destroy the reapers. To me they weren't nearly hinting shepards survival, because when Liara finds the N7 tag it's in a totally different place over a mountain instead of just ruins, so it could be somewhere else. Now focusing on the sound of indoctrination, if im not mistaken, that sound it's largely used to hint when a character it's falling to indoctrination, even when leviathan make us dream, one thing that to me it's actually missing, it's that maybe shepard it's not resisting to indoctrination, why could he if he is just a human? saren and the illusive man also have great will power, so maybe the leviathan it's helping shepard to resist being the illusive man a representation of harbinger and Anderson a representation of leviathan fighting each other allowing us to ultimately take a side.
Edit: grammar.
A lot of the inconsistencies you've mentioned are why I always had a hard time with the end of ME3 both before and after the Extended Cut. I truly think that Bioware did not come up with this theory but when it came out they went "Damn, that's pretty good". I still don't get the N7 person at the end of destroy taking a breath. I still don't get all the timing errors once you reach the Citadel. It sadly feels like they had no clue how to end Act 3 which is amazing since Acts 1 and 2 of the game are so good. I do not trust any of the footage from the ME4 trailer. Until we get an actual story trailer someday I'm not convinced either way.
The conclusion dan reaches is also pretty dumb, the indoctrination theory pretty much shows the ending was rushed and there was at least 1 more mission after that. not the first time this happens, remember KOTOR 2?
Bioware teased people with QR code clues. One of them was a red herring. They are aware that something is going on, just playing dumb. Though no one knows what the red erring is in reference to
@@sagearmaggedon7307 can you elaborate on the QR code clues? for mass effect 4?
@@mcschaschlik key thing is that the QR. codes signify Biowares approach to mysteries. They hint and tease at things in very specific manner, and this method can be seen in most of their more recent games. So when it is said that Bioware is not smart enough, I just laugh. They possess great cunning, and not always used for good. Cough cough “Anthem”
I definitely don’t mind this theory for another reason. That being Shepard has come into contact with Reapers, their artifacts, and their servants so often throughout the entire trilogy that it had to have some sort of effect on them. Could just be slow working like with some other characters. Sure, Shep’s strong willpower is brought up on the regular and is part of their background, but they aren’t a superhero. At the end of the day, Shep is still just a man/woman. That this one organic could miraculously resist it all (for convenience of plot) where everyone else has failed takes away from the cosmic horror.
We literally see the Oily Shadows when we are talking to Anderson and TIm Lol
Daaaamn. Big Dan need to change his name to Dapper Dan after this one with that drip.
I always felt that after Shepard opens the arms and falls unconscious the rest of it is all in their head. That would explain the star-child taking that form and the weird actions needed to set it all off.
Agree and that's how I see it too
On TIM being able to manipulate people: Morinth demonstrates a biotic ability that allows her to control people, Dominate, and when TIM manipulates Shepard his arm takes on the distinct blue glow of someone using biotics. Maybe the Reaper tech that TIM implanted himself with gave him a similar power?
I don’t think Liara is on earth.
Look at the size of the moon in the trailer. That can’t be Luna (the Moon)!
The relays were severely damaged, which would prohibit interstellar travel. Even at FTL speeds it could take decades for the Normandy to get back to earth & that's assuming that there's fuel depots.
@@Razaiel Maybe only those who were active were used and destroyed. So those inactive were still there and we know there are A LOT of inactive relays. Probably they risked and activated them.
The moon is moving away from earth too. So it would be smaller in the sky in the future
@@nickn2794 But then how would they get to Sol? That relay was destroyed, unless there is a deactivated one nearby that's a long time of travel to get to Earth.
EDIT: I cannot spell to save my life.
Well I was also gonna say, Dan suggests that’s London.
It doesn’t snow like that in London lol
Hell yeah! Big Dan looking GOOD in that suit.
I find this theory somewhat interesting and I came to a similar conclusion from my conversation with the odd boy. As far as Shepard surviving, it is entirely possible. While working on my Bachelor degree, I read accounts of people who survived atomic blasts because they either decided to lay down at the correct moment or happened to just have stepped out of a window at the correct moment. Additionally one woman was almost at ground zero in the basement of a bank that went on to drink the black rain that survived the blast.
but all of those scenarios involve air that can be breathed. shep was in space, thousands of miles above the ground. even if they survived the explosion, their body would burn up upon reentry, like it did at the beginning of mass effect 2
@@xemmyQ not to.mentiomed he didn't have his helmet on in the vacuum of space
You gotta remember that at the end of the Leviathan DLC that Leviathan did successfully take Shepard’s mind before it’s over and Shepard convinces Leviathan to release them.
Tech can indoctrinate anybody but we are suppose to believe Shepherd is immune to repeated tech exposure, constant Reaper exposure (through Normandy v2's drive core), and repeated direct conversations with Reapers.
All this plus being resurected with Tech implants by an indoctrinated business known to start using reapers tech experiments.
@@bryanb2886 It would be a massive reach by naysayers to say that Shepards mind is not being affected by the reapers when he has shown so many examples of this clearly being the case. Usually with theories that can be debunked, its someone taking one or two ideas and reaching really far in regards to speculation with them. With this theory, I can name 20 examples off of the top of my head of situations that show effects or possible effects of those undergoing the process towards indoctrination, all backed by documentation in game. Definitely not immune.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 Or, here me out, you're reaching out of your butt because you couldn't accept an ending.
@@sagearmaggedon7307 I think it makes sense for strong minded people (like Shepard) to be somewhat resistant to indoctrination for a time, but eventually even they would succumb. It might take years but it’s inevitable. I don’t think humans and most other species have the ability to resist indefinitely.
@@excrono definitely not. Continuous exposure had to have an effect on Shepard’s mind
My guy with the face cam!!! Good to see ya Big Dan 😁
the mere fact that star boy looks like the boy in the beginning says they were in his head because only shepherd was crying over the boys death. They were clearly trying to manipulate him with the shape the star boy took
That alone proves that, at the very least, the Catalyst/Star Child can read minds and manipulate obtained information for his own needs. If he can do that, there are other things he must be able to do, indoctrination included and therefore, one would have to be tremendously naïve to trust him. This applies even if you think everything that happens in the last 20 minutes of the game is real and not a dream.
@@giorgialadashvili4771 while I agree with you, bad writers seems to be the trend these days. 🤷🏻♂️. They’ll need to confirm indoctrination theory in a trailer for mass effect 4 in order for me to come back to the franchise. I didn’t play andromeda either
Mass effect team: "we weren't that smart"
....Yes we noticed that
Well after their original ending was leaked they were told by BW execs how to end the game; the "writers" didn't like the idea so they did a slipshod job in the limited time they had to re-write everything including already-written code. So I can forgive them for doing a slipshod end using a crappy concept from BW execs. I wish they'd done better but crap happens.
I don’t mind ME3’s ending, I like it
@@earlysteven123 I agree now that they've made it easier to receive the "full ending." I wasn't unhappy with the original ending; just confused by not being given enough information to really understand it.
@@WickedPrince3D I heard that the original ending was confusing
@@earlysteven123 I'm not sure if you mean their originally planned ending or the "original ending" as it was when the game came out. I've never heard anything about what their original planned ending was so I can't say on that. For the "ending as the game came out" even if you pushed (through the fun but pointless Multi-Player hours to maximize your Readiness) to get a reasonably complete ending the final piece was confusing. The postlude with the Normandy survivors I had no trouble understanding - though I wanted to see more of what finally happens to the previous crew that didn't join you in ME3; but the bit of story that follows that is just odd. I don't want to say so much that I spoiler though.
You missed another exhibit. In my last playthrough, after Shepard woke up, i noticed some darkly trees and shrubs in the decimated battlefield, kinda similar to the dream sequences, which weren't there during the hammer's rush to the beam. So, how come those trees and shrubs were there in the middle of a battlefield decimated by Harbinger's freaking laser. It makes no sense unless it's another dream sequence. 🤔
Im not going to argue against it myself, but it can be easily argued by others as an oversight to “rushing” the ending. I would be more interested in the whispy fluctuating sound that is heard. Sounds like high pitched buzzing or ringing, which is an indication of indoctrination according to the codexes. A lower pitched, similar quality sound can be heard in the dream sequences, but naysayers can easily argue since they do not sound the same
Honestly, I think the inclusion of the Illusive Man to the end really is what sparked it all and I would bet money that Control is the least picked ending because of it.