In a way i kind of see that maya sundaresh was as much of a monster/antagonist as clovis bray but she covered her tracks a lot better, hence neomuna. I think they have a lot more in common than let’s on.
I see it as a corruption. Everyone that investigated the Egregore and darkness relics seems to follow the same path of disregarding life to focus on assimilation at almost any cost. It makes me wonder about Savathuns song and it’s true source of corruption.
It's also interesting to see attitudes shift about her character as we learn more. She was lauded as a hero who could do no wrong, and now we know the extent to which she was willing to go to do what she wanted.
@@vaellyth definitely 100%. Bungie storytelling got good at beyond light. It’s deteriorated a bit since lightfall and hopefully now it will pick up again from next season.
The Witness’s people could have been forced in two ways, by either threat of violence or through coercion and exploitation of the heart’s desire. I reckon that both methods could have been deployed in the pursuit of the final forbidden carnal knowledge… “Devotion…bravery…sacrifice…” “In Darkness there is only one truth…”
The Vex are the literal DEFINITION of a hivemind, and even THEY have differing approaches to their unified goals, which separates them enough to wage war on one another if given the chance. Thus I doubt the Witness’s people were a hivemind themselves, that just like the Neomuna citizens, there were some people who did not wish to combine together and sacrifice themselves, even if they wanted to become reality’s controllers. It’d be cool to hear in a lore book or whatnot the memories of some of the citizens who became the Witness, and maybe some dissenters who wished not to but did anyways.
Neomuna citizens are connected due to fear of a threat, the Calus' forces siege. The only missing part would be someone with the intentions to merge them all into one entity, a Witness.
Hey Evaze, As you know symbolism is strong in Destiny. One thing that has been overlooked completely is the Mirror effect (the cracked shattering mirror). It is evident at several places like - When Eramis was activating Warsats Witness's reflection is seen on a broken mirror in front of the console. All the promotional stuff for Lightfall has a mirror shattering effect. The Witness's anger at Calus shows him encased in some sort of a mirror dome that starts with a shatter sound. Please check if this Mirror effect has some sort of lore tied to it. Mirror can be a big symbolic significance upcoming to us.
Very interesting observation. When I first saw the Calus scene with the shattered mirror I was very confused but figured it was just some kind of display of his power and ability to bend reality in some way or something. Dunno. But it would be very cool to be explored deeper.
What about activities at certain points had mirror-like portals related to savathun that are pretty much looking like mirrors on several witch queen mission that are on the throne world
It seems the mirror is either a way for someone to view reality through a throne world or possibly the way a being can enter the mind of another individual (possibly an individual which has been "renewed" by the Witness). I originally thought the Witness was actually trapped outside of our reality and this was the only way for it to influence our reality. This would make sense as to why all of it's plans have taken a long time to even come to fruition and why it always has someone else do its bidding. After Lightfall it's highly likely this isn't the case.
Theory: Symmetry There are a lot of physics implications relating to *breaking* symmetry, but it's symbolism can't be denied: symmetry breaking is the first principle of the Darkness, where its effects on the universe compound instead of being physical reversible. The glass pane/mirrors being cracked/shattered are at points of irreversible change: Eramis is being pushed towards a decision she cannot take back in Seraph; Calus managed to piss off the Witness enough that its opinions on his usefulness are altered, to the point that he's used as bait instead of as a Disciple.
Well somethin people don't seem to talk about is the fact that almost every time we've interacted with the darkness and almost everyONE who has interacted with the darkness, the darkness took the form OF THEM. Maya learned what the veil was when it spoke to her through HER VOICE. CLovis Bray is having problems not just with his kids but another version of HIMSELF, our gaurdian spoke to our own mirorr image in theblack forest.
I’m truly surprised that most people don’t sees the definite comparison between the Gravemind from the Halo series, and the witness. Both written by Bungie, both have a hive mind control over who they subjugate, and both want to make the universe in they’re own image. Just a thought.
The cloud ark also seems to be another possible example. All the consciousnesses of the Neomuni collected in a single artifact. However, it's also different because they don't exist in a hive mind state.
Amsot. I feel I've hear that before on the Nesses Strike when you defeat the Giant Zion. Your ghost mentions something about it I think at the end before the mission is over. 8:33 That happened to US in a cutsean. When we meet ourselves in the Black Garden.
There’s a difference between a hive mind and a gestalt mind. In a hive mind there is a central hive controller (hive queen) that controls/orders the other members of the hive. In a gestalt mind all minds fuse into one collective mind.
Imagine being able to simulate multiple realities and entities within, then you could find a culmination of these entities, then the entity could be so complex that it was always gonna happen and that is the final shape. What if that final shape is everything, everyone, all in one? What if its something we exist within and its just letting the pieces fall because it is inevitable? but the witness is just that, a witness to its being and is speeding it up.
So, with all this known, what if we all misunderstood all of the Witness's disciples and Rhulk along side others are not just the last of their species, but they are the last thing of them, a hive mind like the witness?
We'll beat the Witness by convincing the minds that were reluctant about the fusion (and were forced to "die" to be reborn in him) to fight against the gestalt state. 10 bucks on it.
With dr. maya the veil spoke to only her, what if the same happened with the witness's people and convinced that one person to merge everyone together, for what ever reason it seams that this is what the veil wants. The question is why
It's very evident the Witness proto species were forced into being assimilated. I've been saying this since the cutscene. It just seems that whatever information Ahka was given about the Witness is probably from the Witness or someone subservient to it. Clear proof they were forced into assimilation: We now know that the statues throughout the pyramid ships are the "calcified" remains of the Witness proto species. When looking at them, you can see how many of them look as if they are holding each other or reaching it in anguish. They are incredibly reminiscent of Pompeii and I can almost guarantee this is where the art team drew inspiration. Interestingly, there are calcified fragments that seems to be different than each other and in the main pyramid ship (The one we see in the Witch Queen cutscene) there are calcified remains of what seems to be hive and Scorn/Eliksni, as if these species were also assimilated at some point. Could it be possible that the Final Shape is the amalgamation of all species into the consciousness of the Witness?
I'd also like to add that Ahka specifically states the first VICTIMS of the Witness were it's proto species. This implies that the assimilation was not all consensual and possibly that The Witness is more than just the collection of all these being's consciousnesses. The Witness could be something more, an idea, a curse, a god, the Darkness itself?
I have an interesting theory that the ghost are linked to the veil, and the consciousness of those that merged to make the witness. Hence how he has been able to control our ghost. Something about the ghost seems odd. Maybe the witnesses people actually created ghosts in the first place using the traveler , and wanted them to be mini versions travelers, but the traveler left before the ghosts were complete. Just honestly doesn't make sense how or where ghosts actually come from, as the traveler isnt known to be able to create non life related objects.
I mean, if you look at how brains function in biology, individual neurons have their own recording and perceiving mechanisms. They’re individuals in their own rights and can even move around by choice, but when meshed together they form a meta consciousness. This is what’s known in physics as a metapattern, a type of logical fractal made of smaller parts that by their properties interacting on a larger scale, generate one bigger pattern. Consciousness is like a crystal growth, one big body of patterns that form naturally out of collective interactions under the right conditions. A lil disappointing the destiny universe seems to call this a “non-physical” phenomenon, but I suppose the alterations to laws of physics that enable force manipulations with the light are just as inscrutable within the dark.
Mech robots, a brooding main character that had romantic tension, and one cold relative, religious themes, creatures that I ascend humanity, and then instrumentality project. Neon Genesis evangelion confirmed.
It's forced, in that...Lord have mercy, it's in the freaking title people. You a)escape fate, b) succumb, or c) willingly side with a fate. The witness and the minds within are just taking the next step in the loop of eternity.
It would be cool if presage has a bit of things changed in it. Like it’s aged since the last time we’ve been there, and more lore to find, maybe instead of the scorn boss, the darkness has manifested itself in the guardian that died there. Would be cool instead of it being recycled content
Thank you man for doing these Lore videos, even with what is happening. I am completely burnt mostly from the incompetence of Bungie's leadership I am done with D2 right now. The thing that keeps bringing me back is it's lore. Update: Also first I guess...
I’m calling it now, I can’t help to feel that the vex is what eventually we will become, perfectly balanced, without the chaos of the light and dark struggle, hive mind , collective consciousness, final shape.
I was wonderig, why You used a german word in the title and in the video. Did you know that the german word 'Gestalt' means 'Shape' in english? And what is the next Expansion called? The final Shape Coincidence?
Spoiler warning I saw a leak that the ghost are basically members of the witnesses species'that split from the main body thanks to the traveler, that would be a epic reveal
No, it has already been established that the ghosts are created by the traveler aka the gardener, since we now know that the light is the domain of the physical and the darkness is the domain of the mind/memory, the physical part of the ghosts are made from light but it is highly suggested that since the consciousness part of the ghost was made through the veil someway
@@Oogway876 the ghost are created by the traveler, but they each have different personalities and voices, when you think about, the traveler shouldn’t be able to create beings consciousness right? and there's also the fact that witnesses can possess them as well,
I heard the same.. I forget where not encouraging looking for leaks.. but will be interesting if true, and what that means about the creation of the ghost.
In a way i kind of see that maya sundaresh was as much of a monster/antagonist as clovis bray but she covered her tracks a lot better, hence neomuna. I think they have a lot more in common than let’s on.
I see it as a corruption. Everyone that investigated the Egregore and darkness relics seems to follow the same path of disregarding life to focus on assimilation at almost any cost.
It makes me wonder about Savathuns song and it’s true source of corruption.
It's also interesting to see attitudes shift about her character as we learn more. She was lauded as a hero who could do no wrong, and now we know the extent to which she was willing to go to do what she wanted.
@@vaellyth definitely 100%. Bungie storytelling got good at beyond light. It’s deteriorated a bit since lightfall and hopefully now it will pick up again from next season.
The Witness’s people could have been forced in two ways, by either threat of violence or through coercion and exploitation of the heart’s desire. I reckon that both methods could have been deployed in the pursuit of the final forbidden carnal knowledge…
“Devotion…bravery…sacrifice…”
“In Darkness there is only one truth…”
The Vex are the literal DEFINITION of a hivemind, and even THEY have differing approaches to their unified goals, which separates them enough to wage war on one another if given the chance.
Thus I doubt the Witness’s people were a hivemind themselves, that just like the Neomuna citizens, there were some people who did not wish to combine together and sacrifice themselves, even if they wanted to become reality’s controllers. It’d be cool to hear in a lore book or whatnot the memories of some of the citizens who became the Witness, and maybe some dissenters who wished not to but did anyways.
or just tricked.
@@twelved4983 they are the first and the last whetstone.
Neomuna citizens are connected due to fear of a threat, the Calus' forces siege. The only missing part would be someone with the intentions to merge them all into one entity, a Witness.
Hey Evaze,
As you know symbolism is strong in Destiny. One thing that has been overlooked completely is the Mirror effect (the cracked shattering mirror). It is evident at several places like - When Eramis was activating Warsats Witness's reflection is seen on a broken mirror in front of the console. All the promotional stuff for Lightfall has a mirror shattering effect. The Witness's anger at Calus shows him encased in some sort of a mirror dome that starts with a shatter sound.
Please check if this Mirror effect has some sort of lore tied to it. Mirror can be a big symbolic significance upcoming to us.
Very interesting observation. When I first saw the Calus scene with the shattered mirror I was very confused but figured it was just some kind of display of his power and ability to bend reality in some way or something. Dunno. But it would be very cool to be explored deeper.
What about activities at certain points had mirror-like portals related to savathun that are pretty much looking like mirrors on several witch queen mission that are on the throne world
It seems the mirror is either a way for someone to view reality through a throne world or possibly the way a being can enter the mind of another individual (possibly an individual which has been "renewed" by the Witness). I originally thought the Witness was actually trapped outside of our reality and this was the only way for it to influence our reality. This would make sense as to why all of it's plans have taken a long time to even come to fruition and why it always has someone else do its bidding. After Lightfall it's highly likely this isn't the case.
Theory: Symmetry
There are a lot of physics implications relating to *breaking* symmetry, but it's symbolism can't be denied: symmetry breaking is the first principle of the Darkness, where its effects on the universe compound instead of being physical reversible. The glass pane/mirrors being cracked/shattered are at points of irreversible change: Eramis is being pushed towards a decision she cannot take back in Seraph; Calus managed to piss off the Witness enough that its opinions on his usefulness are altered, to the point that he's used as bait instead of as a Disciple.
Well somethin people don't seem to talk about is the fact that almost every time we've interacted with the darkness and almost everyONE who has interacted with the darkness, the darkness took the form OF THEM. Maya learned what the veil was when it spoke to her through HER VOICE. CLovis Bray is having problems not just with his kids but another version of HIMSELF, our gaurdian spoke to our own mirorr image in theblack forest.
I’m truly surprised that most people don’t sees the definite comparison between the Gravemind from the Halo series, and the witness. Both written by Bungie, both have a hive mind control over who they subjugate, and both want to make the universe in they’re own image. Just a thought.
🤔 very good comparison
The cloud ark also seems to be another possible example. All the consciousnesses of the Neomuni collected in a single artifact. However, it's also different because they don't exist in a hive mind state.
Thanks for the video! And good catch on the voices Calus heard when he communed with the Dark.
Everytime you upload new video I wana go back to Destiny. I like them so much the best channel ever about Destiny lore.
Amsot. I feel I've hear that before on the Nesses Strike when you defeat the Giant Zion. Your ghost mentions something about it I think at the end before the mission is over.
8:33 That happened to US in a cutsean. When we meet ourselves in the Black Garden.
That was Otzot who was one of the Psions who worked with the OXA Machine.
@@blackbelt352-dd Ok.. Maybe they are connected? They never did do a follow up on that.
This feels more and more like we will get a power relating to alchemy.
You forgot the largest hivemind in the game, the Vex
Our future. What Maya started and what eventually we will all become. The vex
There’s a difference between a hive mind and a gestalt mind. In a hive mind there is a central hive controller (hive queen) that controls/orders the other members of the hive. In a gestalt mind all minds fuse into one collective mind.
Imagine being able to simulate multiple realities and entities within, then you could find a culmination of these entities, then the entity could be so complex that it was always gonna happen and that is the final shape. What if that final shape is everything, everyone, all in one? What if its something we exist within and its just letting the pieces fall because it is inevitable? but the witness is just that, a witness to its being and is speeding it up.
I miss Haunted man
lemme back on the Derelict Leviathan, it's right there come on bungo
So, with all this known, what if we all misunderstood all of the Witness's disciples and Rhulk along side others are not just the last of their species, but they are the last thing of them, a hive mind like the witness?
You could say the witness is legion for there is many
We'll beat the Witness by convincing the minds that were reluctant about the fusion (and were forced to "die" to be reborn in him) to fight against the gestalt state. 10 bucks on it.
Ahsa did say that the Witness’ race were its first “victims” in the cutscene. Definitely feels like they were forced.
With dr. maya the veil spoke to only her, what if the same happened with the witness's people and convinced that one person to merge everyone together, for what ever reason it seams that this is what the veil wants. The question is why
It's very evident the Witness proto species were forced into being assimilated. I've been saying this since the cutscene. It just seems that whatever information Ahka was given about the Witness is probably from the Witness or someone subservient to it.
Clear proof they were forced into assimilation: We now know that the statues throughout the pyramid ships are the "calcified" remains of the Witness proto species. When looking at them, you can see how many of them look as if they are holding each other or reaching it in anguish. They are incredibly reminiscent of Pompeii and I can almost guarantee this is where the art team drew inspiration.
Interestingly, there are calcified fragments that seems to be different than each other and in the main pyramid ship (The one we see in the Witch Queen cutscene) there are calcified remains of what seems to be hive and Scorn/Eliksni, as if these species were also assimilated at some point.
Could it be possible that the Final Shape is the amalgamation of all species into the consciousness of the Witness?
I'd also like to add that Ahka specifically states the first VICTIMS of the Witness were it's proto species. This implies that the assimilation was not all consensual and possibly that The Witness is more than just the collection of all these being's consciousnesses. The Witness could be something more, an idea, a curse, a god, the Darkness itself?
i miss presage. that was one of the best missions in the game.
It's coming back next season, bebeee. I missed the entirety of Beyond Light, so it'll be cool to finally try it out.
@@hue_lord_4208 oh good, your in for a treat then. i wish d2 was more like d1 in that the content never left.
I have an interesting theory that the ghost are linked to the veil, and the consciousness of those that merged to make the witness. Hence how he has been able to control our ghost. Something about the ghost seems odd. Maybe the witnesses people actually created ghosts in the first place using the traveler , and wanted them to be mini versions travelers, but the traveler left before the ghosts were complete. Just honestly doesn't make sense how or where ghosts actually come from, as the traveler isnt known to be able to create non life related objects.
Sounds to me like the final shape the witness is shooting for is like the end of Evangelion where all the souls become one.
I mean, if you look at how brains function in biology, individual neurons have their own recording and perceiving mechanisms. They’re individuals in their own rights and can even move around by choice, but when meshed together they form a meta consciousness. This is what’s known in physics as a metapattern, a type of logical fractal made of smaller parts that by their properties interacting on a larger scale, generate one bigger pattern.
Consciousness is like a crystal growth, one big body of patterns that form naturally out of collective interactions under the right conditions.
A lil disappointing the destiny universe seems to call this a “non-physical” phenomenon, but I suppose the alterations to laws of physics that enable force manipulations with the light are just as inscrutable within the dark.
Clovis would've loved to have Maya as a friend or just use her for her secrets
Mech robots, a brooding main character that had romantic tension, and one cold relative, religious themes, creatures that I ascend humanity, and then instrumentality project. Neon Genesis evangelion confirmed.
It's forced, in that...Lord have mercy, it's in the freaking title people. You a)escape fate, b) succumb, or c) willingly side with a fate.
The witness and the minds within are just taking the next step in the loop of eternity.
It would be cool if presage has a bit of things changed in it. Like it’s aged since the last time we’ve been there, and more lore to find, maybe instead of the scorn boss, the darkness has manifested itself in the guardian that died there. Would be cool instead of it being recycled content
Savathún will probably join Caiatl and Osiris on comms this time around
Whelp. Not the first time Bungie’s made a group of assimilated individuals into a hive mind trying to rewrite the universe!
The hand reaches out from the darkness and embraces us, it knows us even when we lie to ourselves, it is the future.
I don't get it. Why did they merge their minds? Like how's that going to help them when the traveler was gone?
There ARE RED crystals in Beyond on Europa !
Will Calus come back because of clone machine that he has
So the final shape is Eva's 3rd impact.... ?
How much money to pay for lightfall. I want to fight the witness 😂
It hasn't been missed. Because it doesn't matter.
Thank you man for doing these Lore videos, even with what is happening.
I am completely burnt mostly from the incompetence of Bungie's leadership I am done with D2 right now.
The thing that keeps bringing me back is it's lore.
Update: Also first I guess...
I’m calling it now, I can’t help to feel that the vex is what eventually we will become, perfectly balanced, without the chaos of the light and dark struggle, hive mind , collective consciousness, final shape.
I was wonderig, why You used a german word in the title and in the video.
Did you know that the german word 'Gestalt' means 'Shape' in english?
And what is the next Expansion called?
The final Shape
Coincidence?
Spoiler warning
I saw a leak that the ghost are basically members of the witnesses species'that split from the main body thanks to the traveler, that would be a epic reveal
No, it has already been established that the ghosts are created by the traveler aka the gardener, since we now know that the light is the domain of the physical and the darkness is the domain of the mind/memory, the physical part of the ghosts are made from light but it is highly suggested that since the consciousness part of the ghost was made through the veil someway
@@Oogway876 the ghost are created by the traveler, but they each have different personalities and voices, when you think about, the traveler shouldn’t be able to create beings consciousness right? and there's also the fact that witnesses can possess them as well,
leak source?
I heard the same.. I forget where not encouraging looking for leaks.. but will be interesting if true, and what that means about the creation of the ghost.
@@vatanak8146 look redrix, he does destiny 2 leak videos, you'll want the watch the final shape leaks video