Percent Chances don't add, they multiply. So at 85% for L9 and 110% for medical bed, thats (0.85*1.1) = 93.5% which is closer to what you got in your testing in that case, not 95%. Full disclosure haven't done your kind of testing to confirm it, but that's generally how the percentage multipliers work :) It seems like adding when you're comparing against 100% since it basically is there, but when you're comparing two non-100% values the multiplication factors in more. The wake-up example works the same - 110% * 90% gives the 99% you saw, not 100% you'd get just from adding.
I think your right, I just tested medical bed + sterile tile so it's 3% fail with addition method and 4.8% fail with multiplication. Field test results were 5.6%. The numbers make more sense when you use multiplication. Nicely done. Now if I could just figure out how Glitter world medicine works, it does not multiply doctor surgery success by 1.3 that is for sure.
@Grympus In my defense the information is not easily available anywhere. According to the wiki a clean wood floor gives a multiplier of 1.05 which is incorrect.
Consider this me right-clicking on you and picking "Force: Make more tutorial videos". Absolutely outstanding. Someone with an education who knows that you have to run a 1000 times to get statistical data. Much appreciated.
With 1000 tests your confidence interval is something like 4% to either side so a lot of the numbers could still be flukes. I'd say it's adequate for testing game systems for optimal play.
PSA: you can render any prisoner legless (install peg leg on both legs and remove) and do this same thing with wooden hand, you don't really need to watch for specific frail ones.
The idea is that when you add one peg leg, they still cant move if they are frail but they could if they were not. So you can only do one surgery per day to maximize efficiency (of learning vs medicine used + time) then you should use a frail pawn. Otherwise always make sure to remove their leg after installing it.
Oh wait I get it, take both of their legs so they can never walk, then add remove a wooden hand for surgery experience. No need for frail you can turn any prisoner into a perfect surgery dummy.
@@FrancisJohnYT there is the small downside that a bad botch can ruin the entire arm, which leaves you unable to install a wooden hand on that slot, but you can't make a master surgeon omelette without breaking a few prisoner eggs
Hey Francis. Thank you for all this content. Never seen your stuff before but I’ve binged about 12 RimWorld videos today. I’ve got 1600 hours on the Rim and it’s by far my favorite game. I’ve learned a whole lot more from your tips and I absolutely can’t wait to start a new play through and try some of them out! Appreciate it sir
The surgery thing got me, did not think it would be so easy to max out your surgery chances. Hope the info helps, but when it comes to Randy their is no way to be sure.
Francis. You have been my mentor through oxigen not included and i just now started out on Rimworld and i am glad that you will be mentor here once again! I appreciate your video's man keep up the good work! Cheers.
Rimworld.... yeah. You don't really talk to people about the stuff you do in Rimworld unless they already play it. If you morbidly want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes google "How to make a Simple Rick : Rimworld Tutorial Nuggets"
The frail trait tip is a good one and one I’ve never thought of. Something else easy to do and double down on war crimes though is to preform the peg leg surgery only one time, but let them go. Next raid. They will be forced to return. Peg legs and all. You also can get them addicted to drugs before they are let go and when they return they are supposed to have drugs on them. Basically you can “nurture” them into being future test subjects with wooden peg legs that show up to share their dugs with you every time you have a raid. Thanks again for playing Rimworld. I still haven’t played ONI but your videos I find super amazing. Rimworld used to have lots of good information tidbits but they kind of went away. Also with with the new DLC/patches lots of things have changed. So it’s great to have you visiting and reporting what’s going on down on the Rim.
I some times think that myself, but if I had of believe the wiki it would have told me that level 12 medical was perfectly safe for a bionics install. I'm glad I did the testing.
Finally watched this, just wanted to say: it is possible to dig trough the info windows to find those of the operations, in there one can find the information you are missing like surgery base success chance, amount of failure needed for critical failures/deaths etc. That's where the last few failure percentages come from
Old time rimworld player here found him a few months back. His testing got me into Oxygen Not Included. He just picked up rimworld so I’m super happy to get some real testing in Rimworld again.
This game has such a large and dedicated community, I'm surprised all this testing is not readily available already. But if I get to run stupidly large testing scenarios to figure it out i'm not going to complain :)
@@FrancisJohnYT I think it was Barky who used to do the RimWorld testing, but that was back in Alpha 16-17, a few years ago, so much of his stuff is no longer all that reliable. Thanks for picking up the slack.
I know this is an old post, but let me add a wee bit of information taken from looking at the guts of the game: The medicine tiers have a stat called "Potency" and another called "Quality Max", i'm uncertain what *exactly* potency does, but it's what defines how much better one medicine is than the other. Quality Max defines the maximum tend quality the medicine can give. Herbal has Potency 0.6 and Quality Max 0.7 Industrial has Potency and Quality Max 1.0 Glitterworld has Potency 1.6 and Quality Max 1.3 For, for whatever way the Potency affects the final calculation, Glitterworld medicine is 60% better than Industrial. The tend quality cap on glitterworld is probably a much higher draw to it for dealing with diseases, though. The hardcoded 2% fail chance kind of... Immensely devaluates hospitals, medicine and medical skill, you really can't get anything out of those if you have a decent doctor- Which you are only likely to actually have AFTER you have all of those, so in the end there's also no reason to have a decent doctor instead.
Thanks for the info, based on what I have learned the 0.6 would be a success multiplier. Which is why herbal is really back for Surgery. So assuming decent doctor use regular medicine for surgery and if you want to accelerate healing glitterworld will give you a big multiplier.
I had a pawn that was in constant pain due to a gunshot wound (that I gave him during a raid) and so he was constantly on the verge of a mental break. I found an augment that would make him ignore pain. Seemed like a good idea at the time. So, I put my pawn in a hospital bed and had my best doctor perform my first ever surgery in the game. It was a catastrophic failure and my pawn’s head fell off 😆
I had a colony where my one and only builder, level 18, had his leg chewed off and essentially lost his ability to effectively construct because of it. I spent the next few hours working on getting a bionic leg for him and getting a high-medical pawn. During the surgery they accidentally cut out his stomach instead. RIP buddy and the rest of the colony shortly after.
Heh, earlygame bionics or archotech can be incredibly powerful, and it's definitely worth training up a good medic. Even a few of them can easily make some of your pawns lethal, and combined with the psy powers in royalty can easily make them far more lethal than they ever should be. I've currently got one pawn nicknamed 'Siren' that I send in to depopulate enemy camps with a Charge Lance, simply because she also has Burden, Beckon, Focus and Invisibility. I'm pretty sure the pirates are traumatised by her considering she tends to sneak up on their base, lure one of them out of cover, burn a hole through him with her masterwork charge lance then disappear into the darkness as fast as her archotech legs allow. Rinse and repeat half a dozen times and the outpost is dead and the rest of the caravan can come in with the animals to loot it to the ground. As far as vital monitors go they aren't really worth the hassle of researching until the lategame, though I've currently got a colony where I managed to steal an excellent one during a raid on some ruins since I've got a mod that adds 'Pristine Ruins' events to the world map. It takes copies of other people who use the mod's bases and generates ruined instances of them as locations you can caravan to at random, with those further away from settlements having more loot left in place... If you get there before everyone else anyways, as they will periodically lose loot until the event disappears. It can mean lots of easy loot, with occasional lategame items and lots of components/steel available in the earlygame… but they can also be a huge risk because at least some of the other factions are always present and need to be driven off first (normally 3-6 pawns per faction on the map at the start) and will send raids against it a day or two later based on the wealth of the ruins. Good Luck surviving against a drop pod raid of 20+ pawns with good armour and weapons when you've only got 2-3 of them yourself! Lots of really risky escapes will be required, but the fact that you can occasionally grab interesting stuff well above your own tech level makes it very rewarding when you manage the instance well :D)
Thanks for another great video! One thing I was hoping you would test was the effect of a sun lamp. I have seen comments by folks on reddit (or somewhere) claiming the 100% illumination from a sun lamp boosts surgery success, but I have never tested it.
Just tested it now, sun lamps do nothing, additionally having improved eye sight does nothing either. A pair of archotech eyes do not make you a better surgeon.
I've just unlocked advanced components on my latest play through and so I'm building bionics and I went through my pawns to see who's missing an arm, leg, finger or toe and boy did I have a lot of missing parts. 1 of my pawns has a missing toe on each foot and a missing finger.
Are we talking archotech arms, both drugs, a perfect hospital with legendary hospital bed and vitals monitor and glitterworld meds? That should give something like 3x the success chance over base skill. Meaning medical 3 is 98%, 2 is ~90%, 1 is ~60% and 0 is ~15% Of course, that's assuming his finding of ~13% increase from glitterworld meds is correct. I don't know the formula, the wiki doesn't say anything like that (it just says straight up 1.6x the other stats) but it may be out of date or something.
Doing this medical training would also have the neat side effect of really messing with your storyteller due to having a colonist go 'downed' everyday. Will actually reduce incoming raids
But does higher skill reduce the severity of failure? If level 20 only has minor failures compared to catastrophic failures that makes an enormous difference
I do not except normal quality or below on my furnature. If I get normal it gets deconstructed and I usually build furniture in batches so that out of 10 beds my builder built one of them will be excellent or better.
I'm not much for recommending mods but have you tried "quality builder"? Set quality for an item and your pawns will keep constructing/deconstructing it until it matches the quality set.
Surgeries can go wrong, after all they are performed by imperfect human beings that sometimes have a bad day, no matter the cyberware or drugs they may use. That's realistic and intended, not a bad mechanic
The fact that you can do heart/spine surgery in a dirt shack with a survival rate of more than 50% is already unrealistic enough. Let the catastrophic failure rate slide.
I have a different view, if you make it possible for perfect operations then no one will do an operation until they get to the perfect hospital/doctor combo to be perfectly safe. But build in a flat chance at failure at max level but make the max level attainable earlier players might just start augmenting their pawns much earlier in the game. I see that as encouraging players to get stuck in earlier.
@@FrancisJohnYT Sure, i can see that. but as you have proven in the video, a good amount of late-game tech related to medicine is useless/pointless. Unless you're doing sub 10 surgery in a dirty room a mediocre (metal floor+normal bed in a clean room at ~10-12 med) setup is enough to almost cap out. By the time the tech is useful, you're likely past needing it.
Very true, surgery caps out very early. When it comes to cancer removal you need a lot more but that is a very rare occurrence. The real benefits of a great clean hospital is that pawns recover faster from injuries, sickness and infections. Also infections are far less likely. You can keep all but the worst cases on herbal medicine and still get good quality treatments.
Oh and hear I've just been saving before surgery and reloading if I didn't get the result I wanted mainly because a failed surgery results in loss of the item and bionic parts aren't cheap.
Why look for frail pawns when you can just keep the leg off? Instead of "uninstall => install => stop" go for "install => uninstall => stop", so both legs are missing. Just leave a stockpile of wood nearby or manually forbid the "peglegs" until you go for the surgery again.
So, how low of a medical skill could you get away with if your surgeon has all the good implants and archotech parts, is high on all the performance-enhancing drugs (including Luciferium), is working within a state-of-the-art hospital with a legendary hospital bed, vitals monitor, sterile tile, and full lighting, and is using Glitterworld Medicine?
There are several combinations that could get you there. A legendary Medical bed and Go-Juice would give you 102.9% odds. That is with normal medicine and wooden floors. Alternatively 2 archotech arms and an excellent wooden bed would give you 99% odds. If your crazy - Lucy, GO-Juice, Wake up and an excellent hospital bed gives you 100.8%
So in Rimworld, medicine is easy! Just have a nice bed, a clean room and a light and even a mere "solid professional (Level 9) can achieve the same results as the most skilled master (Level 20). I suppose that is not an unreasonable system for game balance nor even that radically different from reality.
i don't understand installing bionics/archotech early. are you purchasing bionics so that you can install them early in your run? aren't there better things to buy when it's that early on? nice video, surprising how easy it is to hit the maximum success rate for a surgery.
The most pressing early use is usually when a pawn gets eye injury, sight loss really hurts combat. Missing limbs is also a big one, peg legs are ok but move speed is nice. Also putting bionic/archotech legs on a jogger and giving them a sniper can get rid of most early - mid game attacks.
Crusader Kings looks good but I never got into it, I preferred that total war series back when it had more depth and my impression was Crusader Kings was total war with less epic fights but more intrigue, back stabbing and subterfuge.
TH-cam ate the sound for no reason I can see, I recompiled the video exactly the same way (Exact same size to the byte) and youtube was ok with it second time.
Prosthetics decrease, as they have reduced sight/manipulation stats compared to default limbs/organs. Bionics on the other hand increase chances as they have better stats than normal flesh and bone
My understanding is that vision also plays a part in the surgery chances. Since light level can affect vision, someone else suggested that the use of a sun lamp helps their performance.
So long as the room has normal light levels that is the max it will affect surgery. Just tested Sun Lamps they do not help, also Archotech eyes do nothing. Archotech arms on the other hand help a hell of a lot.
I never find bionic parts anywhere, I only rarely find one being sold by very specific traders, so I don't get it how you are suggesting tribals installing bionics...
I never bothered testing it, the vitals monitor only works with hospital beds, does not link to normal beds. Considering the tech requirements I did not think it was worth bothering, I mean by the time you get access to them a level 6 doctor with an excellent hospital bed will have 100% odds already. A Vitals monitor on top of that feels like overkill.
How do you use the Numbers mod to change what's shown on that quick-info card? I'd like to see my chance of medical success there, but I don't know how you add it to that card.
is there a scenario where a lvl 1 pawn can perform a surgery with the same 98% chance as a master? On drugs, in clean room, with sterile tiles, on drugs, with glitter world meds and etc? If so that would be a game changer in a emergency situation.
are you sure the bonus of the bed work that way and not multiplying? if you take 90%X110% give you 99% and is very close to your predicted 100% but the more far you get from the 100% the discrepance you get 80%x110% you get 88% and not 90%, 50%X150%=75%. when you do testing for something you don't know make sure to have point (of the fuction) distant from each other or you can't really guess what fuction it follow one example is how much sen x and x^2 are similar close to to x=0 but are very different from each other and you are not really make use of statistics to support your theory, but i can't be forgiven, is extremely hard to use and give explanation
Edward Anderson had a similar comment and after testing some more it is multiply, the reason addition seemed to work is at numbers close to 100% their is little difference between adding and multiplying. At lower percentages it becomes more noticeable.
I never tested it, in theory it should be the exact reverse of glitterworld. I know when it comes to wound tending herbal medicine is locked at a max of 60% quality. I not sure if it does the same for surgery but even in the best possible hospital I don't think I would risk it considering how easy it is to get regular medicine.
I usualy like to have all pawns with pasions legendary doctors, realy saves lives, all you need to train them at once is to set separate zones for each doctor including only one prisoner each. Also I noticed that at 20 medical and herbal meds you are close to minimal 1% surgery fail chance, combined with bionics and hospital beds/monitors saves fortune on advanced meds. Removing body parts has 1.2 multipler succes chance on top. And operating on wounded pawns is a bad idea but I can't find this one in the code. As for your request: No idea, calculations are hardcoded, you may try on discord, maybe devs will ansver. Herbal meds: 0.60 Multipler for tend quality and surgery chance 0.70 Maximum tend quality ans surgery succes chance(before modifiers from beds monitors etc, I think) Standard meeds: 1.00 1.00 Gliter meds: 1.60 It seems to be hiting hard cap at some point 1.30 PS: there is allways hardcoded 1% failure chance on surgeries (anestesis and executions excluded)
"hardcoded 1% failure chance on surgeries" I though it was 2%? You are braver than I to do operations with herbal medicine even if I had a legendary hospital bed I'm not sure I would risk it.
My health care system will be the most efficient on the rim. "I know your nervous about this operation because the doctor is only fairly new, however don't worry, they pounded down some Wake up and Go-juice just now so assuming they don't have a heart attack half way through the operation you should be fine."
Straw is never quite clean it's mostly clean from what I have seen. I figure you would still be better with regular tile. But then again straw resist dirt much better so blood would be way less of an issue.
Percent Chances don't add, they multiply. So at 85% for L9 and 110% for medical bed, thats (0.85*1.1) = 93.5% which is closer to what you got in your testing in that case, not 95%. Full disclosure haven't done your kind of testing to confirm it, but that's generally how the percentage multipliers work :) It seems like adding when you're comparing against 100% since it basically is there, but when you're comparing two non-100% values the multiplication factors in more. The wake-up example works the same - 110% * 90% gives the 99% you saw, not 100% you'd get just from adding.
I think your right, I just tested medical bed + sterile tile so it's 3% fail with addition method and 4.8% fail with multiplication. Field test results were 5.6%. The numbers make more sense when you use multiplication. Nicely done.
Now if I could just figure out how Glitter world medicine works, it does not multiply doctor surgery success by 1.3 that is for sure.
Came here to comment this!
"Yes; very dark, but it works". Rimworld in a nutshell.
That 100 room hospital though.... Above and beyond the call of science Francis, above and beyond. Amazing.
cheers mate.
Even with Dev mode, that took a bit of time. Totally worth it.
@Grympus In my defense the information is not easily available anywhere. According to the wiki a clean wood floor gives a multiplier of 1.05 which is incorrect.
Consider this me right-clicking on you and picking "Force: Make more tutorial videos".
Absolutely outstanding. Someone with an education who knows that you have to run a 1000 times to get statistical data. Much appreciated.
With 1000 tests your confidence interval is something like 4% to either side so a lot of the numbers could still be flukes. I'd say it's adequate for testing game systems for optimal play.
PSA: you can render any prisoner legless (install peg leg on both legs and remove) and do this same thing with wooden hand, you don't really need to watch for specific frail ones.
The idea is that when you add one peg leg, they still cant move if they are frail but they could if they were not. So you can only do one surgery per day to maximize efficiency (of learning vs medicine used + time) then you should use a frail pawn. Otherwise always make sure to remove their leg after installing it.
Oh wait I get it, take both of their legs so they can never walk, then add remove a wooden hand for surgery experience. No need for frail you can turn any prisoner into a perfect surgery dummy.
exactly, my lab rats are actually nothing but a head and a torso xD
@@MrPiratenking Basicly a "nugget" ... kenshi players can relate :D
@@FrancisJohnYT there is the small downside that a bad botch can ruin the entire arm, which leaves you unable to install a wooden hand on that slot, but you can't make a master surgeon omelette without breaking a few prisoner eggs
Hey Francis. Thank you for all this content. Never seen your stuff before but I’ve binged about 12 RimWorld videos today. I’ve got 1600 hours on the Rim and it’s by far my favorite game. I’ve learned a whole lot more from your tips and I absolutely can’t wait to start a new play through and try some of them out!
Appreciate it sir
The surgery thing got me, did not think it would be so easy to max out your surgery chances.
Hope the info helps, but when it comes to Randy their is no way to be sure.
Taking it off....putting it back on, and taking it off again! Omg, lol. I grimaced as you played rimworld lego surgeries.
Francis.
You have been my mentor through oxigen not included and i just now started out on Rimworld and i am glad that you will be mentor here once again! I appreciate your video's man keep up the good work!
Cheers.
"they can never have a mental break, because they cant walk"
jesus.
Rimworld.... yeah. You don't really talk to people about the stuff you do in Rimworld unless they already play it.
If you morbidly want to see how deep the rabbit hole goes google "How to make a Simple Rick : Rimworld Tutorial Nuggets"
The frail trait tip is a good one and one I’ve never thought of. Something else easy to do and double down on war crimes though is to preform the peg leg surgery only one time, but let them go. Next raid. They will be forced to return. Peg legs and all. You also can get them addicted to drugs before they are let go and when they return they are supposed to have drugs on them.
Basically you can “nurture” them into being future test subjects with wooden peg legs that show up to share their dugs with you every time you have a raid.
Thanks again for playing Rimworld. I still haven’t played ONI but your videos I find super amazing. Rimworld used to have lots of good information tidbits but they kind of went away. Also with with the new DLC/patches lots of things have changed. So it’s great to have you visiting and reporting what’s going on down on the Rim.
I have heard that one before, get them addicted to Lucy and then release them so they return with more lucy :)
*Coming up*
See how Francis John & friends take on the Geneva convention!
More like biomedical convention
@dat man Don't worry friend, *I* get it. 'Twas a good 'un.
cheers.
Thank you for doing all these deep dives into the Rimworld mechanics. I still think you're mad, though.
I some times think that myself, but if I had of believe the wiki it would have told me that level 12 medical was perfectly safe for a bionics install. I'm glad I did the testing.
Finally watched this, just wanted to say:
it is possible to dig trough the info windows to find those of the operations, in there one can find the information you are missing like surgery base success chance, amount of failure needed for critical failures/deaths etc. That's where the last few failure percentages come from
Dude, the level of detail in your testing is insane. Thx a lot for videos, man!
found your rw vids in the reccomended tab. good to know the system sometimes work.
Old time rimworld player here found him a few months back. His testing got me into Oxygen Not Included. He just picked up rimworld so I’m super happy to get some real testing in Rimworld again.
This game has such a large and dedicated community, I'm surprised all this testing is not readily available already. But if I get to run stupidly large testing scenarios to figure it out i'm not going to complain :)
@@FrancisJohnYT I think it was Barky who used to do the RimWorld testing, but that was back in Alpha 16-17, a few years ago, so much of his stuff is no longer all that reliable. Thanks for picking up the slack.
I know this is an old post, but let me add a wee bit of information taken from looking at the guts of the game:
The medicine tiers have a stat called "Potency" and another called "Quality Max", i'm uncertain what *exactly* potency does, but it's what defines how much better one medicine is than the other.
Quality Max defines the maximum tend quality the medicine can give.
Herbal has Potency 0.6 and Quality Max 0.7
Industrial has Potency and Quality Max 1.0
Glitterworld has Potency 1.6 and Quality Max 1.3
For, for whatever way the Potency affects the final calculation, Glitterworld medicine is 60% better than Industrial.
The tend quality cap on glitterworld is probably a much higher draw to it for dealing with diseases, though.
The hardcoded 2% fail chance kind of... Immensely devaluates hospitals, medicine and medical skill, you really can't get anything out of those if you have a decent doctor- Which you are only likely to actually have AFTER you have all of those, so in the end there's also no reason to have a decent doctor instead.
Thanks for the info, based on what I have learned the 0.6 would be a success multiplier. Which is why herbal is really back for Surgery. So assuming decent doctor use regular medicine for surgery and if you want to accelerate healing glitterworld will give you a big multiplier.
Dude this content is pure gold, getting into statistical analysis in a video game this deep... Bring tears to my economist eyes ;)
Everyone: “Rimworld”
Francis John: *G R I M W O R L D*
I had a pawn that was in constant pain due to a gunshot wound (that I gave him during a raid) and so he was constantly on the verge of a mental break. I found an augment that would make him ignore pain. Seemed like a good idea at the time. So, I put my pawn in a hospital bed and had my best doctor perform my first ever surgery in the game. It was a catastrophic failure and my pawn’s head fell off 😆
I had a colony where my one and only builder, level 18, had his leg chewed off and essentially lost his ability to effectively construct because of it. I spent the next few hours working on getting a bionic leg for him and getting a high-medical pawn. During the surgery they accidentally cut out his stomach instead. RIP buddy and the rest of the colony shortly after.
Heh, earlygame bionics or archotech can be incredibly powerful, and it's definitely worth training up a good medic. Even a few of them can easily make some of your pawns lethal, and combined with the psy powers in royalty can easily make them far more lethal than they ever should be. I've currently got one pawn nicknamed 'Siren' that I send in to depopulate enemy camps with a Charge Lance, simply because she also has Burden, Beckon, Focus and Invisibility. I'm pretty sure the pirates are traumatised by her considering she tends to sneak up on their base, lure one of them out of cover, burn a hole through him with her masterwork charge lance then disappear into the darkness as fast as her archotech legs allow. Rinse and repeat half a dozen times and the outpost is dead and the rest of the caravan can come in with the animals to loot it to the ground.
As far as vital monitors go they aren't really worth the hassle of researching until the lategame, though I've currently got a colony where I managed to steal an excellent one during a raid on some ruins since I've got a mod that adds 'Pristine Ruins' events to the world map. It takes copies of other people who use the mod's bases and generates ruined instances of them as locations you can caravan to at random, with those further away from settlements having more loot left in place... If you get there before everyone else anyways, as they will periodically lose loot until the event disappears.
It can mean lots of easy loot, with occasional lategame items and lots of components/steel available in the earlygame… but they can also be a huge risk because at least some of the other factions are always present and need to be driven off first (normally 3-6 pawns per faction on the map at the start) and will send raids against it a day or two later based on the wealth of the ruins. Good Luck surviving against a drop pod raid of 20+ pawns with good armour and weapons when you've only got 2-3 of them yourself! Lots of really risky escapes will be required, but the fact that you can occasionally grab interesting stuff well above your own tech level makes it very rewarding when you manage the instance well :D)
Explains why I fail so often on my prisoners. Good info, thank you.
Thanks for another great video! One thing I was hoping you would test was the effect of a sun lamp. I have seen comments by folks on reddit (or somewhere) claiming the 100% illumination from a sun lamp boosts surgery success, but I have never tested it.
Just tested it now, sun lamps do nothing, additionally having improved eye sight does nothing either. A pair of archotech eyes do not make you a better surgeon.
@@FrancisJohnYT oh, thanks for that! i had intended to test it out when i have some gaming time.
I've just unlocked advanced components on my latest play through and so I'm building bionics and I went through my pawns to see who's missing an arm, leg, finger or toe and boy did I have a lot of missing parts. 1 of my pawns has a missing toe on each foot and a missing finger.
That is pretty normal, near the end of a playthrough you are mass crafting bionic parts to replace all the fingers, toes, eyes and ears.
Can't make an omelette without breaking some legs.....
Wait..
Now I'm curious. I wonder what the lowest possible medical level a pawn could have while having a 90%+ success rate just from buffs.
Are we talking archotech arms, both drugs, a perfect hospital with legendary hospital bed and vitals monitor and glitterworld meds? That should give something like 3x the success chance over base skill. Meaning medical 3 is 98%, 2 is ~90%, 1 is ~60% and 0 is ~15%
Of course, that's assuming his finding of ~13% increase from glitterworld meds is correct. I don't know the formula, the wiki doesn't say anything like that (it just says straight up 1.6x the other stats) but it may be out of date or something.
Doing this medical training would also have the neat side effect of really messing with your storyteller due to having a colonist go 'downed' everyday. Will actually reduce incoming raids
oh... well not if they are a prisoner. You could do this with a 'colonist' to affect the storyteller
But does higher skill reduce the severity of failure? If level 20 only has minor failures compared to catastrophic failures that makes an enormous difference
Wanted, volunteers for essential, medical research.
Last man standing runaway from the surgery room.
Run away where? There are no doors.
No ads you legend!
I read it as minigun requirements at first and was very confused, even if intrigued.
I do not except normal quality or below on my furnature. If I get normal it gets deconstructed and I usually build furniture in batches so that out of 10 beds my builder built one of them will be excellent or better.
I'm not much for recommending mods but have you tried "quality builder"? Set quality for an item and your pawns will keep constructing/deconstructing it until it matches the quality set.
No matter how much you prep there is a chance of failure = Bad mechanic. Great detailed stats, keep at the testing this is fun to learn.
Surgeries can go wrong, after all they are performed by imperfect human beings that sometimes have a bad day, no matter the cyberware or drugs they may use. That's realistic and intended, not a bad mechanic
The fact that you can do heart/spine surgery in a dirt shack with a survival rate of more than 50% is already unrealistic enough. Let the catastrophic failure rate slide.
I have a different view, if you make it possible for perfect operations then no one will do an operation until they get to the perfect hospital/doctor combo to be perfectly safe. But build in a flat chance at failure at max level but make the max level attainable earlier players might just start augmenting their pawns much earlier in the game.
I see that as encouraging players to get stuck in earlier.
@@FrancisJohnYT Sure, i can see that. but as you have proven in the video, a good amount of late-game tech related to medicine is useless/pointless. Unless you're doing sub 10 surgery in a dirty room a mediocre (metal floor+normal bed in a clean room at ~10-12 med) setup is enough to almost cap out. By the time the tech is useful, you're likely past needing it.
Very true, surgery caps out very early. When it comes to cancer removal you need a lot more but that is a very rare occurrence.
The real benefits of a great clean hospital is that pawns recover faster from injuries, sickness and infections. Also infections are far less likely. You can keep all but the worst cases on herbal medicine and still get good quality treatments.
Oh and hear I've just been saving before surgery and reloading if I didn't get the result I wanted mainly because a failed surgery results in loss of the item and bionic parts aren't cheap.
Such dedication
Why look for frail pawns when you can just keep the leg off? Instead of "uninstall => install => stop" go for "install => uninstall => stop", so both legs are missing. Just leave a stockpile of wood nearby or manually forbid the "peglegs" until you go for the surgery again.
"Yes, very dark". Yet, extremely realistic.
So, how low of a medical skill could you get away with if your surgeon has all the good implants and archotech parts, is high on all the performance-enhancing drugs (including Luciferium), is working within a state-of-the-art hospital with a legendary hospital bed, vitals monitor, sterile tile, and full lighting, and is using Glitterworld Medicine?
Level 5 medical, but only because you can't operate on someone if you have lower than 5 skill in medical.
@@FrancisJohnYT OK? What would it take to improve the surgery chance of a pawn with level 5 medical to at least 98%?
There are several combinations that could get you there.
A legendary Medical bed and Go-Juice would give you 102.9% odds. That is with normal medicine and wooden floors.
Alternatively 2 archotech arms and an excellent wooden bed would give you 99% odds.
If your crazy - Lucy, GO-Juice, Wake up and an excellent hospital bed gives you 100.8%
@@ShadowWolfTJC no matter how high you go, surgery success chance is capped at 98%
Yeah I am patchinig injuries more then doing surgeries, so the improved fight on infections is way more important then you let on
Very true, this video was really just all about surgery. I was surprised how little effect sterile tile had on the chances.
Yeah now you arent whispering haha. i watche the full original through :) nice to see you fixed it.
Second time youtube ate the sound on me, no idea why.
Or do the all or nothing scenario where you first do the surgeries on your main surgeon so he gets parts that help him do better surgeries...
My gess is Fibrous mechanites would increase the odds dispite the pain negitives.
+50% manipulation would be enormous, would turn a weak doctor into a monster.
So helpful, thank you
So in Rimworld, medicine is easy! Just have a nice bed, a clean room and a light and even a mere "solid professional (Level 9) can achieve the same results as the most skilled master (Level 20). I suppose that is not an unreasonable system for game balance nor even that radically different from reality.
Pretty much. Any doctor with 90% surgery success chance and an excellent wooden bed.
The real reason for sterile tile is preventing infection and disease rolls on injured pawns resting in bed
honestly mate if yo made all these vids under 10 mins they would blow up
At first I thought that in the last frames of video there will be mass 'euthanize by cut' operation
I think you may have played to much Rimworld... or not enough.
i don't understand installing bionics/archotech early. are you purchasing bionics so that you can install them early in your run? aren't there better things to buy when it's that early on? nice video, surprising how easy it is to hit the maximum success rate for a surgery.
The most pressing early use is usually when a pawn gets eye injury, sight loss really hurts combat. Missing limbs is also a big one, peg legs are ok but move speed is nice. Also putting bionic/archotech legs on a jogger and giving them a sniper can get rid of most early - mid game attacks.
Does anyone know how to open that window where he edited the colonist's skills?
These are so, so informative and useful!
Have you ever played Crusader Kings 2? Because I'd love a video like this from you on that game.
Crusader Kings looks good but I never got into it, I preferred that total war series back when it had more depth and my impression was Crusader Kings was total war with less epic fights but more intrigue, back stabbing and subterfuge.
@@FrancisJohnYT I'm currently playing it and can confirm, heavy on the plotting. I'm so lost...
What mod let’s him edit colonists on the fly like that (9:09)?
Character editor
seen the other one, yay for pc and surround sound! but this is much better!
TH-cam ate the sound for no reason I can see, I recompiled the video exactly the same way (Exact same size to the byte) and youtube was ok with it second time.
what about bionics eyes or hands/arms on the doctor? does that add or subtract to the success chance?
Prosthetics decrease, as they have reduced sight/manipulation stats compared to default limbs/organs. Bionics on the other hand increase chances as they have better stats than normal flesh and bone
Bionic/Archotech Arms add to surgery success chances of the doctor and are very worth it. Eye upgrades do nothing.
My understanding is that vision also plays a part in the surgery chances. Since light level can affect vision, someone else suggested that the use of a sun lamp helps their performance.
So long as the room has normal light levels that is the max it will affect surgery. Just tested Sun Lamps they do not help, also Archotech eyes do nothing. Archotech arms on the other hand help a hell of a lot.
Nice video, and nice link name !
I never find bionic parts anywhere, I only rarely find one being sold by very specific traders, so I don't get it how you are suggesting tribals installing bionics...
Good stuff, learned quite a few bits from this. Since you didn't go into it i assume the vitals monitor works as expected?
I never bothered testing it, the vitals monitor only works with hospital beds, does not link to normal beds. Considering the tech requirements I did not think it was worth bothering, I mean by the time you get access to them a level 6 doctor with an excellent hospital bed will have 100% odds already. A Vitals monitor on top of that feels like overkill.
It gives some more treatment quality and immunity gain as well (wiki) but i guess that isn't what this video is about
How do you use the Numbers mod to change what's shown on that quick-info card? I'd like to see my chance of medical success there, but I don't know how you add it to that card.
Nevermind. I think it was the RimHud mod, not the numbers mod. I could be wrong.
Pretty sure it's RimHud and you click on the little cog symbol to modify it. It's customizible but it's not the most intuitive interface.
Dude, how many hours or days took you to test this? Thanks
is there a scenario where a lvl 1 pawn can perform a surgery with the same 98% chance as a master? On drugs, in clean room, with sterile tiles, on drugs, with glitter world meds and etc? If so that would be a game changer in a emergency situation.
Each surgery operations have a minimum Medical skill requirement, eg 5 or more.
Thank you
are you sure the bonus of the bed work that way and not multiplying? if you take 90%X110% give you 99% and is very close to your predicted 100% but the more far you get from the 100% the discrepance you get 80%x110% you get 88% and not 90%, 50%X150%=75%.
when you do testing for something you don't know make sure to have point (of the fuction) distant from each other or you can't really guess what fuction it follow
one example is how much sen x and x^2 are similar close to to x=0 but are very different from each other
and you are not really make use of statistics to support your theory, but i can't be forgiven, is extremely hard to use and give explanation
Edward Anderson had a similar comment and after testing some more it is multiply, the reason addition seemed to work is at numbers close to 100% their is little difference between adding and multiplying. At lower percentages it becomes more noticeable.
@@FrancisJohnYT i see it only after, thanks for the testing :)
What about herbal meds? How bad does that muck it up?
I never tested it, in theory it should be the exact reverse of glitterworld. I know when it comes to wound tending herbal medicine is locked at a max of 60% quality. I not sure if it does the same for surgery but even in the best possible hospital I don't think I would risk it considering how easy it is to get regular medicine.
this is so crazy! I still havent been able to harvest organs or cannibal anyone lol It makes me cringe
Does installing some thing more complex effect the success rate?
How does herbal medicine effect all of these stats?
is there not a minimum you need to install bionics.
I usualy like to have all pawns with pasions legendary doctors, realy saves lives, all you need to train them at once is to set separate zones for each doctor including only one prisoner each.
Also I noticed that at 20 medical and herbal meds you are close to minimal 1% surgery fail chance, combined with bionics and hospital beds/monitors saves fortune on advanced meds.
Removing body parts has 1.2 multipler succes chance on top.
And operating on wounded pawns is a bad idea but I can't find this one in the code.
As for your request: No idea, calculations are hardcoded, you may try on discord, maybe devs will ansver.
Herbal meds:
0.60 Multipler for tend quality and surgery chance
0.70 Maximum tend quality ans surgery succes chance(before modifiers from beds monitors etc, I think)
Standard meeds:
1.00
1.00
Gliter meds:
1.60 It seems to be hiting hard cap at some point
1.30
PS: there is allways hardcoded 1% failure chance on surgeries (anestesis and executions excluded)
"hardcoded 1% failure chance on surgeries" I though it was 2%?
You are braver than I to do operations with herbal medicine even if I had a legendary hospital bed I'm not sure I would risk it.
So have you found that hardcoded 1 % failure chance in the code? Because as Francis said, accoding to his tests it should be 2 % hardcoded.
Ridiculous fail counts separately from surgery failure chance I think
Are you sure? From what I could tell 2% was the average, if ridiculous was on top of that it should be a worse failure rate.
You forgot to test with luci.
It's about the same as wake up, the really power of Lucy is in healing and recovery. Though the conscious increase is great.
those poor walking hats!
Much effort
Always save the game beforehand and reload if failure. Losing the best parts are devastating due to their high cost
Give your dupes a nice life and your pawns an awful one. Balances!
My health care system will be the most efficient on the rim. "I know your nervous about this operation because the doctor is only fairly new, however don't worry, they pounded down some Wake up and Go-juice just now so assuming they don't have a heart attack half way through the operation you should be fine."
Much better haha
better : D
You breathe so much on the mic that I can make cotton candy
with the new updates, straw floor is the best floor for hospitals IMO. cheap and clean!
Straw is never quite clean it's mostly clean from what I have seen. I figure you would still be better with regular tile. But then again straw resist dirt much better so blood would be way less of an issue.