Bolts on Bikes - The MYSTERY of Threadlocker and How (not) to Use it...

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  • เผยแพร่เมื่อ 26 พ.ย. 2024

ความคิดเห็น • 78

  • @ronspencer6668
    @ronspencer6668 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +14

    Although I am in my 20th year as a mechanic, I spent many years prior in motorsports and in the tool and die/machine trades. So I definitely bring some knowledge forward and have some biases, right and wrong. The big thing that we seem to be defending against in cycling are fasteners vibrating loose. When I build wheels with linseed or dab some blue 220 on a fender bolt, I am trying to keep those imprecise threads from vibrating loose. Then there is the green Loctite solution for certain Cervelo BBs which is designed as a gap filler and will fill a .002-.003" gap such as a bb shell that is too big for a PF30. I am in my 5th year as a mobile mechanic and I love the channel, your info is spot on! Cheers.

  • @notsogreatmatt
    @notsogreatmatt 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +9

    Best channel on TH-cam

  • @AlchemyBikeShop
    @AlchemyBikeShop 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Great accurate info! The only thing I would add is a little more about when to use activator and when it is not needed. Broadly speaking when using drip style Loctite activator is not needed for active metals (iron, plain steel, copper, etc...) and always required for inactive metals (stainless steel, galvanized steel, pure and anodized aluminum, etc...).
    Most of the hardware we deal with as bike mechanics is made from inactive metals (mainly stainless steel and anodized aluminum) so if using standard drip style Loctite activator should always be used
    For this reason, I like to use the glue stick style blue 248 and red 268 because it works on all metals without the need to prime and does not care if a bolt is oily. It really is the best product for bikes. Activator and thorough cleaning is not needed when using the stick. It also has zero chance of leaking out into your drawer ;) Just make sure the cap is on tight so the top layer doesn't harden... During application I also find I waste less of it.
    That being said it always good practice to clean corrosion and old Loctite from your hardware if you have it out; a brass brush and a pick are ideal for this. But do note that the factory blue coating is actually a product called Nylok and is designed to withstand multiple installs so it does not need to be removed.
    I keep activator around for green sleeve retainer which I use mainly for pressfit BB's that have metal involved and sometimes for frame bearings when the bearing seat is not quite to spec... Technically Shimano resin cups do not require the use of sleeve retainer and generally should be installed dry as per the manual (unless the old BB was creaky in which case go for it, but this is just a band-aid solution to a bigger problem which is rooted in poor manufacturing; cutting the hole to spec is the best solution). A lot of various products retaining products/ greases actually will make the resin brittle and more prone to cracking apart during removal... But even park tool misleads people here... There is a lot of conflicting info out there... Default to the manufacturer instruction.
    Also, I use red loctite all the time, specifically for suspension service. Most manufacturers recommend it on piston nuts and other assemblies that have a relatively low torque (like 45in/lbs or less) and can easily be torched to loosen.
    This is great and valuable content. Most bike people just don't know a thing about Loctite! Knowledge is power and it will keep your bolts tight!

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Lots of good info in here! Thanks for contributing 🤘

  • @jennykallista7907
    @jennykallista7907 23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    fun fact... the pre-applied threadlocker is called patch lock - a nylon material that generally stays with the threads following disassembly, making it effectively reusable, unlike liquid threadlocker which always needs to be reapplied.
    great video, Danielle! 🙂

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  23 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Cool! I was thinking about the level 1 cert practical test during this video 😁Leave it to the lady who knows her stuff to tell us what's up 🤘💪

  • @ericchase5421
    @ericchase5421 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    You’re a really good teacher!

  • @phillevin6651
    @phillevin6651 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Awesome. Impressive knowledge. Love geeking out on this kinda stuff!

  • @LagBomer
    @LagBomer 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Very thorough explanation, as usual.

  • @maxxovitch
    @maxxovitch 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Needy, informative, and lots of humour. Bravo and thank you!

  • @401SNelson
    @401SNelson 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

    Excellent information, very cool cat, and no stopped clock to distract my attention 😂😂😂

  • @EBDultras
    @EBDultras 17 วันที่ผ่านมา

    ..this is blowing my mind in so many ways…glad i found this..great (art)work!…

  • @hirokiide7750
    @hirokiide7750 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

    Caution! Loctite can damage any plastic directly or near by. In the skiing industry it became apparent about 20 years ago (I recall) that use of Loctite brand thread locker (blue in these cases) was damaging the plastic parts of bindings that are not even in direct contact but near by the screws. I'm suspicious if it also damage/degrade the carbon fiber since it consists of resin like~50%. In the skiing industry many of them switched the recommendation to Vibratite which supposedly does not cause the same chemical reaction. Anyway I use Permatex blue sometimes for bike wrenching but with caution, making sure away from non-metal components. Addition to your LInseed oil as natural susbstance, I've heard some people swear by using bee's wax (although I've not used it to test it myself). As for the use of anti-seize for titanium frame/components you talked about, I use Nickel base one (Permatex 77134, like $5 at my local auto shop), whereas the common anti-seize is copper base. This difference was discussed in depth by Josh Poertner of Silca. Also there's a great testing of how the thread lockers strength varies with brands done by Project Farm. Thanks for your good work. I always enjoy watching your channel!

    • @charliesullivan4304
      @charliesullivan4304 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      I like to use marine anti-seize. It's only disadvantage is that it doesn't have as high a temperature rating, a non-issue for bikes.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Good point! Some loctites are not good for plastic. The company claims* carbon fiber is alright but you do have to use Primer to get it to activate since CF won't activate it.

    • @SianaGearz
      @SianaGearz 23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      I've seen loctite fumes depolymerise PETG and HIPS.
      I don't think it can depolymerise epoxy.
      You also have polyamide parts and i don't know i'd be a little apprehensive.

  • @balloffires
    @balloffires 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I always appreciate your videos and I love your sense of humour!!

  • @Longtimerolling
    @Longtimerolling 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I like the blind hole piece of info.. thanks.

  • @andreaslindegren4617
    @andreaslindegren4617 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

    amazing video! just got a bottle of blue for the winter service of my bike.

  • @gregmoxham2120
    @gregmoxham2120 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Absolutely first class video, thanks so much. Keep up the great content!

  • @davidnewman4290
    @davidnewman4290 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Excellent. Thank you for this.

  • @jugaloo5873
    @jugaloo5873 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thanks! Couple of gems there!!

  • @BruceChastain
    @BruceChastain 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    wow this was really a good and useful video. I've been using blue for a long time with good success but it was always somewhat mysterious to me.

  • @georgeboron9878
    @georgeboron9878 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Love all your videos. Wish they were more often 🤔.
    Coming from the aerospace side, fastener torque is always a deep rabbit hole for sure. On the equipment I directed work on, I always specified anti-seize along with the associated lubricated torque specifications. If you look at any engineering spec, they almost always use lubricated thread torque (or measure bolt stretch... the best method). Realistically, there is really no repeatable or accurate dry torque. Even the slight oil residue from your fingers on the bolt threads will somewhat lube the threads and thusly affect the actual torque applied (thus the clamping force and bolt stretch). I've seen this proven in tests.
    The problem with bike torque specs is they never specify dry or lubricated threads. With them, I apply nickel anti-seize or liquid thread-locker and use the 20% rule (as you mentioned).
    If you google "Spring Analogy for a Bolted Joint", You'll find that it's all about applying the correct preload so the joint never really sees more load than it is preloaded at initially. The thread-locker is more for fastener retention when affected by vibration and thermals.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Thanks for contributing to the deep dive from a place of experience! This is the kind of information that motivates me 😂 I will try to do better on video frequency, I enjoy making them

  • @TheDarthWTF
    @TheDarthWTF 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    My favorite threadlocker format at the moment is the blue Loctite Glue stick. Outrageously expensive but its really nice to apply and doesnt clog the way the bottles sometimes do.

  • @teddgram
    @teddgram 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    As a Ti Bike owner, I have been cautioned to not mix different metal components together for fear that I'll have issues with galvanization e.g. threading an aluminum bolt into a titanium part. When I asked about how to prevent this, mainly because it's just not feasible to never run into this, often people say to use grease or thread locker.
    In this video, you mention only using anti-seize on Ti parts. Can you elaborate why, and perhaps talk me down off the ledge of taking my bike apart, stripping off all the grease and thread locker off my parts, and applying anti seize to them (yes, I know I'm being extreme)?
    Also I love it when you insert movie clips and pictures into these videos. I look forward to your videos not just because they are informative, but also because they are entertaining.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

      I'm glad you're enjoying the videos, my passion project 😆 As for your bike, if you have dissimilar metals and grease, I would definitely take those out and use antiseize. Not worth the risk. Here's some titanium info: Ti is super reactive with some dissimilar metals and will create a virtually permanent bond in some cases. It is also prone to galling so needs lubrication when installing. Grease, while it seems to accomplish both of those things, lacks the staying power and is flushed out of the threads much quicker than antiseize which would potentially leave the threads vulnerable and you wouldn't know it. Neither is permanent, but antiseize is the better choice. For threadlocker, it is possible to get one that works with Ti but in general for it to work well you would need to use a primer since (funnily enough) titanium is not very reactive on its own. Again, you NEED it to work perfectly, so one of those situations where potentially all things work a little but one seems to accomplish it all. You might need to reach for loctite or similar if the problem is a bolt not staying put etc. But for normal circumstances it seems like there's one easy answer...

    • @teddgram
      @teddgram 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@NeutralSupportNews I was looking for a few winter projects, looks like I just found one.

    • @wrwicky
      @wrwicky 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

      I understand thread locker (and crazy glue) to contain cyanide and so I try to be very careful about avoiding skin contact

  • @bicyclerider8218
    @bicyclerider8218 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Thank you for this video, very informative and an exceedingly well execution. I needed this video as I've been going through Neutral Support News withdraws.

  • @sergio_Ok_ok
    @sergio_Ok_ok 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I would have liked to hear and see how to properly clean the Loctite off a bolt when reinstalling it with a thread lock.
    What is the correct procedure?
    Your videos are very interesting, the analysis is deep and simple at the same time with a lot of good humor, for me it is the perfect combination of high-value content presented in such an easy-to-understand way.
    Thank you very much for shining the light!

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Glad you are enjoying them! Oil and a wire brush for taking off loctite. Some people use cooking oil, alcohol, nail polish remover ... But the brush is the important bit.

    • @sergio_Ok_ok
      @sergio_Ok_ok 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@NeutralSupportNews Muchas gracias!

  • @LaurentiusTriarius
    @LaurentiusTriarius 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I don't use thread locker on brake bolts will I die?
    Never use thread locker on inserts like bottle cage mounts, especially red.
    It's been awhile since I didn't need to use thread locker but recently I did use some blue loctite installing the aenomaly switchgrade.
    I poured some into the rails and on the seatpost contact point.
    *No ish

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      You can do whatever you want for your own bike but probably a good idea to use the blue threadlocker where manufacturers would have suggested for a customer's bike if you are doing this professionally 🙂

  • @Superyeyo13
    @Superyeyo13 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Excelente video

  • @BruceChastain
    @BruceChastain 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I've used boiled linseed oil to protect the inside of an old steel frame, I don't really know how helpful it is or isn't.

  • @WhatIsTheWheel
    @WhatIsTheWheel 12 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Did you ever use Spoke Prep? I used it for years. I still think it was latex paint but it worked pretty good.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  7 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      I still have the first jars I ever bought 😬 I think it works fine, just wasn't a big fan of the feeling of turning the spoke nipples with the semi-dry paint on them (it doesn't stay liquid as long as linseed oil). That said, I enjoyed that there were 2 colors to differentiate L-R spokes.

  • @emilycs8823
    @emilycs8823 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    I paricularly like threadlocker on things like fenders and rack hardware. Otherwise where called for, or the bolt originally came from the factory with some kind of threadlocker, and that is what the torque spec is given with.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      This is actually a great addition - they always include super short hardware with fenders etc. and they are literally always loose.

    • @emilycs8823
      @emilycs8823 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@NeutralSupportNews took this sugestion on too short hardware today on a bike that came in for this problem and put a longer bolt on to get some more thread engagement, and contact area for threadlocker.

  • @PaulC.494
    @PaulC.494 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Have heard that applying grease to a closed hole can build pressure and crack the part, what do you do in that situation?

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      That is definitely true in applications with high torque and high heat, especially if cast - for example, jug bolts on a motorcycle motor. If you install with oil on the threads, the casting can crack. I have not seen this happen on any of the pretty low torque low heat examples on a bicycle.

  • @siriosstar4789
    @siriosstar4789 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Use Loctite OR carry a mini torque wrench in your tool kit , assuming you have one and periodically check everything during a rest.

  • @Longtimerolling
    @Longtimerolling 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    I thought you would have chosen the Cookie Monster for the blue loc tite eg.

  • @Frostbiker
    @Frostbiker 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

    Why only anti seize with titanium?

    • @sergio_Ok_ok
      @sergio_Ok_ok 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Please let us know why?

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

      It is the better choice for longevity, preventing galling, and preventing the interaction of titanium for dissimilar metals. There's a couple of replies in here with even more info, but that's the gist! It is also difficult for threadlocker to activate on titanium so you typically need some kind of activator.

  • @tanjonah1008
    @tanjonah1008 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    The only issue about keeping or storing threadlockers is its shelf life or storage life which compromises its efficacy. According to Loctite its threadlockers expire 12 months from the date of manufacture.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Yep! They stick to industrial regulations. For our type of work, I would not be as worried about that but can't endorse departing from their recommendation for legal reasons 😜

  • @sergio_Ok_ok
    @sergio_Ok_ok 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Why only anti seize with titanium?
    Please let us know why?

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +3

      Multiple reasons. Titanium is less reactive than other metals (that's why it is used in medical equipment) BUT it reacts extremely with dissimilar metals (think titanium frame, alloy bolt). Titanium threads are also super prone to galling. Threadlocker is not always able to activate with titanium, so most of the time the companies recommend you use a primer when using threadlocker with Ti. To prevent galling, lubricant is needed - Antiseize over grease because it has higher staying power over time, thus eliminating the need to constantly remove and reapply. Grease gets flushed out much easier and leaves the threads unprotected. All my understanding of course, I've not regretted using Antiseize yet but I've surely seen those cases that regret NOT using it!

    • @sergio_Ok_ok
      @sergio_Ok_ok 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@NeutralSupportNews Muchas gracias por la info y tu tiempo.

  • @sergio_Ok_ok
    @sergio_Ok_ok 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    ...how important it is to reduce the torque (20%) when using a thread lock or grease (or other).
    Remember, yes, the sensation of tightening a screw with or without a thread lock (or grease) is different. With a thread lock it is smoother.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +2

      Very important. The clamping force is what is being altered so you are achieving a higher clamping force with less torque. Think carbon handlebar - stem face plate bolts. One of the most important torques to get right on a bike!

    • @tanjonah1008
      @tanjonah1008 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Will it not under torque when bolts are dry and at times commonly may have higher friction or resistance due to contamination?

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      Hypothetically, yes. A rusty bolt will not turn as easily as it is supposed to and thus is likely to be undertorqued.

  • @charliesullivan4304
    @charliesullivan4304 24 วันที่ผ่านมา +5

    Similar red vs. blue considerations apply to voting on Tuesday. If we vote red, the results might be really hard to reverse when it turns out to have been a mistake.

  • @8017668
    @8017668 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    yeah you'll get in trouble with linseed oil... if you keep it in leaky containers like that! 😂

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +4

      Don't worry, I only let it spill on important documents

    • @lesliefranklin1870
      @lesliefranklin1870 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

      @@NeutralSupportNews Must be a corollary to Murphy's Law. The leakier the container, the more important the documents.

  • @richardwest4212
    @richardwest4212 22 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Will your cat make future appearances?

  • @KM-jo3wh
    @KM-jo3wh 17 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Hmmm, I enjoyed and appreciated 99% of this vid, but the part where you say that "most torque specs assume that the bolt/thread is dry" made me cringe - How can you make such a claim and how much does it really help if you don't really know if that claim applies to a particular sitatuation or not? I see this as a fundamental problem in the industry - as a mechanic you encounter torque specs in many stems, thru axles etc, but I claim that there is very little info e.g. about dry/not dry - you are not provided with that info in the manuals or necessarily have any access to related materials. And all in all there are hundreds if not thousands of brands making components. So I really am interested in knowing how can you make such a sweeping statement even if brands like Shimano do exist. To highlight, sometimes torque values are stamped as "max" values, other times not - so without clear instructions in a particular situation you are left with the question of "is this some sort of a max value/ reccomended value or what?" Furthermore, there is very little info provided about whether or how the value relates to the bolt/the object it is threaded into and to the object it transfers pressure. For example, when you look at a stem with 5nm marking on the face plate, does that mean that exceeding the value can brake the bolt? strip the threads? crack the faceplate? crack the handlebar? one/two/all of these? Such info might be beneficial if e.g. you are considering switching the bolts to a different material in a broblem scenario. I claim that most of the time, you are just playing an educated guessing game "yeah, using a torque wrench set to that value nothing should brake and nothing should slip". And 99% of the time that is how that goes. But still, you are just making assumptions when you don't have a manufacturer's clear manual stating what is what. Related to this, when you pose the question of "was it torqued to the correct spec?" in case of e.g.a broken handle bar - this issue in reality is so complex that without a clear understanding of the particular case plenty of other questions could/should be asked just as well - e.g. what was the diameter of the handlebar clamp area? or the stem? applying the "correct torque" to an under-/over-/correctly sized object gives different results without even getting into the issues of lubrication/corrosion/manufacturing errors etc. Ok, enough. Kudos for clarifying and educating, but I do have a feeling that until this industry gets to the level of the "serious industries" you mention us mechanics and DIYers still end up cracking bolts and getting thru axles stuck in frames even with a better understanding of what a threadlocker is or buying a 300eur Giustaforza.

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  14 วันที่ผ่านมา

      Cool. I think you've clearly laid out exactly why, like I was saying, torque spec is inherently inaccurate given it assumes perfect conditions exactly as the mfg expected. Almost every real brand in the industry DOES provide the information if you try hard enough - but if you watch the torque video you will see that a lot of that was "how do I even get that information and what if I don't have it". There's a decent amount of disagreement and missing information when you mix in cheap/knockoff parts etc too. And language is important - youre right. The hard rule is if it doesn't say otherwise, the torque spec is dry. Take that however you want. The biggest effect that has is not on shear force of the bolt but on clamping force of the object being tightened which is where the handlebar failure topic comes from. Those professionals bikes weren't old and crusty - they were new (as close to the perfect conditions expected) so other than a crash or a mfg defect what would make the part break off? Not saying torque is the answer but it is a guilty looking party among all the other suspects. Thanks for sharing!

  • @danielbum912
    @danielbum912 23 วันที่ผ่านมา

    SHOP CAT

  • @sergio_Ok_ok
    @sergio_Ok_ok 24 วันที่ผ่านมา

    Oh, and lastly.
    (this sounds like WhatsApp messages / why not write everything in one message? Haha!)
    What happens when I apply thread lock to the screw in advance, and it dries? When I install it, it is no longer liquid. Does this mean that the properties are lost, diminished or what?
    I hope Danielle will give me more of your time and that you can answer so many questions that arose when watching your video.
    Thank you very much in advance!

    • @NeutralSupportNews
      @NeutralSupportNews  24 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      If it is a true liquid loctite (and not meant for pre-application) it won't dry while being exposed to air. Other Threadlocker that aren't truly anaerobic might, but supposedly the curative properties will be diminished.

    • @sergio_Ok_ok
      @sergio_Ok_ok 23 วันที่ผ่านมา +1

      @@NeutralSupportNews ...we should know all this wonderful information before we get our bikes or perhaps before we tighten a screw.