Amazing video, I really really do like this! Just wanted to make a small addition to it, a little asterisk if you will The same way you pose this concept of "The Beyond" as a universe situated even higher up, there are many things implying that we also have one buried even deeper down: The Depths. From which hell's roar allegedly bubbles, from which the vessel may have spawned, in which that person in the code is likely trapped, etc (though a lot of this is speculative it's also implied pretty strongly). In all likelihood, this place is another "layer" of Dark World, if the Dark World is the yolk of an egg then The Depths would be like if that yolk was a shell. If that makes any sense at all, lol. That whole "what if it could get darker than dark" thing from the Spamton Sweepstakes back in the day leads me further into that direction I don't entirely know how this adds to your interpretation, I very much lack the knowledge of cosmology you have, but do with it as you will!
I am always amazed at how, almost three years after the release of chapter 2, people are still coming up with new theories and interpretations of Deltarune. This was genuinely one of the most interesting theory videos I’ve seen, and it’ll probably change the way I see deltarune’s story going from here on out. Great, awesome video!
You gotta appreciate when someone brings about an exterior matter, topic or theme into the DELTARUNE space and manages to make an UNIQUE theory with foundations from such theme! A-MAZING video and theory!
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO IT WENT FROM "hm, that's basically the text" to "ooo okay this is interesting" to "YES THEORY TIME YEY" to "[very loud ice cream]" AAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAW
3:45 In my opinion I would relate this more to Susie and Kris instead of lancer. Imagine Susie finding out that the player has been controlling Kris the entire time, and thinking that their relationship was never real because she thinks *we forced* Kris be friends with her, and she thinks that they never would’ve been friends with her otherwise. Not to mention that Ralsei knows *the entire time* that Kris is being possessed by us, which I’m sure would also make Susie freak out once she learns that.
This theory honestly explains why Deltarune feels so personal to me if it's really where Deltarune is headed- it fits in perfectly with my personal philosophy
Awesome sauce video! This also fits in with the symbolism in the family that uses fire magic and the one that uses ice magic: Ralsei representing hell (the Dark World below, focused on serving Lightners) and Noelle representing heaven (the Real World above, opening up an actual choice for the Player with a new route)
I feel like a lot of these are ideas that have been swimming around in the fandom for years, but seeing it all laid out with such artistic flair is very special. If we do have some secret purpose in life, you’re hitting yours with this one, chief.
I will continue to love the layered universes theory, the subversion of posing our own reality as in the same system of layered universes as the game is one of the best interpretations for "the edge of the shadow where reality and dream meet" imo. Though I think its at the very least confusing to describe the dark world as a lesser universe to the light world while them also being literally yin and yang. The dark world is certainly in some aspects lesser than the light world to a thematic extent, but I dont think its entirely clear cut.
That idea is very similar to "Pataphysics". The idea that the multiverse has narrative stacks, that build upon each other. Who knows? Perhaps we are simply words on a page, from the perspective of another being.
I think the egg metaphor works really well! This editing is so well done and you explained everything perfectly I played deltarune but didn’t know about this theory but I really like it!!!
Personally, I think a matryoshka metaphor, or just no metaphor at all would have been better. I think she went for the egg because the symbolism of the egg in deltarune and whatnot.
Hey!! Good video! The editing voice acting and visuals were phoenominal! However I do think it was a biiit scattered, nothing too bad though! However I do think the lightners being the titans is a bit off. In the roaring it's stated the lightners will need to fend for themselves, lost eternally in an endless night. Combining this with the over abundance of dark fountains, I think it's safe to say the dark worlds will invelope the light world, but because they're colliding with other dark fountains, none of the other darkners will be able to retain their form due to the overlap of their own dark world with another. I think the dark worlds represent the endless night. With them spreading faster then they can be sealed. If I had to guess the titans are a layer above the lightners, but a layer below us the player. I think the lightners themselves being the titans would mess up the story significantly. I think it's also less likley the susie confrontation will be like, "hey lancer isn't real lol." I think it will more be so like, he and the others darkners ARE real, however down to their core, they're objects. Saying they aren't real doesn't make alot of sense in this because like, they ARE, just in their own world, within a world, within our world. Let it be known that, while these characters aren't real in our world, they ARE real in THEIR world. If the egg in a dark world is perfectly real in the dark world, and retains being an egg in the light world, I feel like that should be kind of definitive that the dark world IS real, but most of the beings inside it, cannot retain their form when they cross the boundary into the light world. The same goes for the lightners. They can traverse worlds below them, but It's not possible for them to traverse the world above them, aka us. The egg is assumed to be given by a higher being, (it's just gaster ok everything is gaster all is gaster) and because of this, I feel like he is more so able to have more of a bridge between the dark world and light world because he's assumed to be above both of them. Tl;dr, the darkners ARE real, but simply cannot go outside the boundary the dark world has. And the titans are not the lightners. Another quick thing, I feel like dess isn't dead. Moreso missing. If the secret text found in the code i anything to go off of, she's most likley in a VERY dark place. Ie, bunker darkworld, or the depths ie, gaster. And dess having connection to gaster and by proxy the darkworlds, while a good theory, I feel like is going to be executed alot differently. All we can really do in the meantime is wait til 2090 for chapters 3 and 4.
Thank you!! I really appreciate the critique ^^ my thoughts are usually a scrambled mess which is probably why it felt a little scattered. I'll try to work on that next time! Also, I agree with a lot of the thoughts you mentioned and I also believe that the Darkners are real within their own world. It's similar to the narrative in Undertale and how, while the characters aren't real to us, whatever we do their universe (whether that be freeing monster-kind, murdering everyone, or everything in between), is very real to them. The Roaring is still a huge ??? because the line between fiction and reality in Deltarune so hazy. Through the Light World's perspective, I personally interpret the words "Leaving the Lightners to fend for themselves Lost eternally in an endless night..." in a figurative sense rather than literal, as in the Lightner's ceasing to engage in the comfort of objects. And to add on to that thought, perhaps it would be a _literal_ endless night within the Dark World too...! (like, once Lightners stop playing with toys, the Darkners lose their purpose and the dark world disappears and becomes an endless night)
Loved it :) Really fun take on the layers of reality and what the Titans really are. People rarely talk about Deltarune's existentialist themes as thoughtfully and emotionally as you have here.
There's a good point to talk about with religion in this context. Most religions believe that a God/gods have a specific purpose for you to fulfill. Some people accept it, and some people fight back. And most people are blissfully unaware. Sound familiar? As someone who personally struggles with that specific area, it got me thinking... Maybe I'm delving too deep in the mess, idk...
The early on point about if we're on an Alien TV unironically made me laugh, because I'm apparently "crazy" enough to view that as looking to small scale wise. ... No I will not expand on it because this is the kind of thing I'll verbalize for like 30 minutes on sometimes. But I will sum it up: Reality is fiction. Books, TV shows, video games, they all believe they are real, but we know we are fictional. Whatever is above us has the same thing. So does the thing above it and it's infinitely spanning. Meaning that instead of focusing on that, we should focus on our perspective, because that's all we see, and that's all that matters. Ok guess I was wrong about a short summary. But it's a pretty concise explanation. Btw I'm 19, and started thinking about this in 11th grade in Highschool. I'm not saying that as a flex, I'm saying that as a "hey this will affect you for a while mentally majorly in a negative way, and I know because I had to process this" kind of thing. It causes me to wonder if it was worth learning the truth, or was ignorance truly bliss... Edit: OK SO I HADN'T FINISHED THE VIDEO YET WAIT A MINUTE-
This video was really interesting, I liked it! I am curious about why the roaring between the dark and light worlds would cause all of the consequences it does? They say "Light is subsumed by shadow", so it seems like the darkworld becomes the higher layer or something? But also the darkners can't handle it and turn to stone, so its like they're not built for direct interaction with us? And the Titans being lightners wouldn't really make sense in that scenario? Perhaps its the lightners being treated with the darkworld rules? The idea of the deltarune cosmology being like an egg is interesting too, because if a rupture can happen between dark and light, is someone trying to do something similar between our reality and the light world? If there is a symmetry between these two interactions, then the roaring must be analogous to something in the real world.
In certain cosmology, the Light is The Word (the Logos), the Script of the Story the Dark Worlds follow. So, the Dark coming up takes the Script away. Why? Because the Lightners lose their Imagination. so, the Darkners become objects again. And because the Imagination Consciousness is gone, The Lightners become Titans and throw the Darkners away.
The Roaring is the Players getting tired of playing Imagination to Sooth Pain and turning the video game off. The Screen goes Dark and we forget they exist. Roaring/screaming/not coping.
The, lightners breaking into the real world, theory stuff you came up with, yeah, can you guess why it won't happen? Clue: the lightners you think are gonna connect with our world are on a videogame.
@@vencedor1774 Do you know? the subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real and fiction. If it is in the Real World by virtue of being in your subconscious mind, it affects what you say and do. Like your comment.
Question: how is The Roaring going to play out? Will the Delta-Warriors get trapped in the now doomed darks worlds like Dess? If the Titans are lightners, then will Kris and Susie become Titans? And who is the Angel?
6:48 maybe disconnected layers cannot interact and Gaster saw what happens if they do. 7:19 Spamton wanted to escape the dark world or maybe even ascend to ours because he wanted absolute freedom which you can’t get in our world. 8:08 who is Dess?
I've always thought of it as fictional therapy in a way, especially for the characters themselves. If us players are trying to escape from reality for just a few moments to enjoy a game, then we're watching the Lightners do the same when they jump into Dark Worlds. The Roaring, the bosses, the knight, the titans, all cataclysmic stakes designed to push these characters to be better. Very much like in Dungeons and Dragons or any other rpg campaigns. You give them an almost religious prophecy to follow, like how the Dungeon Master invites players and people from all over. Place themselves and their characters in high-stakes scenarios for fun while simultaneously developing their real world character as well. A safe place to explore, to harm objects instead of people, with world-ending problems put before you, and you're forced to solve them. Aren't these what Dark Worlds are for so far? Kris' loneliness resolved as they find a friend in Susie, confiding in her. Susie's violence tempered into heroism. Noelle's fearfulness giving way to bravery as she stands up to Queen. Berdly's arrogance replaced with modesty, and refilled with a genuine desire to help his friends. Even Ralsei is very much in the shoes of the Dungeon Master sometimes. Providing lore? Giving advice? Encouraging interactive actions instead of just fighting. Catering to the Darkners and Lightners' development. Because after a Dark World is sealed, or the DM ends the session to a long campaign, that courage and tenacity stays with the players, even beyond the game into their own lives. It's fun to see them grow despite their flaws for sure.
Undertale exists as something that breaks the fourth wall of video games as a whole and giving those powers of being able to go back and do things differently, and to give the players more of a critique of their morals and style, essentially. The characters don’t exist in a vacuum, they are aware of the player dying, coming back, and doing things differently. Breaking the fourth wall is an acknowledging that there are higher powers in a way that sometimes serves a purpose in the narrative, or for comedic effect because it’s talking to the player. But still, even if characters believe they are talking to that higher power, them committing to that is still part of that fiction. It’s like telling them that they broke out of a prison, but that place they went to is the prison. (Spoilers for Danganronpa: V3, and DDLC..) In the ending of Danganronpa: V3, it’s revealed that the killing game, remnants of despair, the future foundation, all don’t exist. Their characters don’t even exist. But it’s also revealed that the killing game IS fictional in their fiction. They are still unaware that their existence, even after learning the truth, is still planned and written by people who are outside their reality. It’s an ultimate fake-real-fiction that encompasses them. Then for DDLC, Monika, in her reality, thinks she’s talking to somebody in real life, but from our perspective, she’s talking to someone in real life, but it’s just doing that because it was made to do that. Monika thinks she’s real, and wants to be as real as the “us” she’s talking to, but in reality, the truth is that she is. She’s just as fabricated as the people she wishes to be. And she has no free will because whatever she says or does isn’t even a thing she does, it’s the people who made her. So, if Toby Fox wanted to make this a story about Fiction Vs. Reality, the characters could say to themselves that they aren’t real, and them saying that they aren’t real is also not real. And nothing they do can ever change themselves from thinking outside the reality’s perspective. It’s like simulation theory in real life. Which means every layer of meta-reality turned out to be the same level of meta-ness all along. If it’s true, which I don’t know, but that could just be written by me because I have no free will and someone else is writing it for me. Oh god.. I’m going to go eat food now and try to forget about this…
I mean...That does sound a bit like determinism, a philosophical theory that states that everything is already determined to happen. I DO believe in determinism, specifically in Logical determinism, Physical determinism, Predeterminism and Hard determinism. Search them up, they are really similar to what you are proposing.
While this is an amazing way to phrase something I've lacked the ability to myself, abd I love the deep dive into cosmology in general, I feel like you may have missed a step. I would like to propose that we, the player, are The Beyond, while The Shell is the .exe file itself. There does seem to be some evidence this may be the intent. Survey_Progeam, the strange naming conventions on files related to the game engine, "friend" being one such oddly named file but seen in Queen's basement, menus being diagetic to some degree, the pre-Ch1 clear menu narration. Maybe the fact that there's multiple save files could even be part of this "vertical cosmology" concept. Speaking of, I didn't know that was a term! Thats super cool! I'm definitely gonna be looking deeper into cosmological terminology now that I know there is specific names for different aspects and configurations of the universe. Thank you for the new research topic.
👏👏👏 Wonderful video presented in very cute manner. I would just suggest the video title or other video titles you make in the future start whit ,,Deltarune Theory - etc etc..,,, that might help whit the TH-cam algorithm .
So, kind of like how kris is a video game character to us, we could be like that to a higher world. The dark world to the lightners is like the light world is to us, like we are to another higher level, stacking up forever? Im sure if i was a darkner i'd be trying to get into the light world, who might try to reach us, and we might reach some level where we are like gods to humankind as humankind is to deltarune. Im not sure if this makes sense, but its still something to consider.
So, the "Dess is this world's flowey" 's just Jaru's asriel is dead theory? But the asriel is dead makes more sense because it would imply that the flowey of this universe is asriel too.
Loved this video!! Immediately hooked onto your presentation style, and the very coherent way you express your ideas. This is certainly a great lens to look at these worlds through, especially what you say about the titans as these eldritch beings. Makes a lot of sense
the idea of the lightners being the titans isn’t something i’ve really seen brought up before, but… yeah, that would suck if the big bads from the prophecy are hometown residents. and susie having to find out about all the darkners not being real… this could be a sad direction for the story indeed
whoa!! this theory is actually really interesting, and it for sure made sense. what i really appreciate in videos are well-written subtitles, and these are definitely great ones. i also appreciate the content warning! i’ll be sure to check out your channel, you deserve it.
If we'll take the egg metaphor seriously, I think the yolk represents only Ralsei's dark world, the main one. And all the other ones are chicken embryons. They start out as a small black dot inside of the egg, but overtime they grow into a decently sized living organism, a Roaring, eating all of the egg's contents along the way - the dark and light worlds. About the Roraing, remember that if it happens all darkners will turn into statues and lightners will forever be surrounded in darkness? So, what if the Roaring is just our real world? Where all that fantasy and magic does not exist? Where you're easily vulnerable to depression and stuff without having a way to cure it with something external or even otherworldly like in Deltarune? All inanimated objects are just darkners turned into statues and everyone is a lightner surrounded in darkness called reality.
8:25 I, personally, disagree with this, and I’ll tell you why. Whatever happened to Dess, Noelle’s family, and the town as a whole, doesn’t THINK she’s dead, at the very least. Most ingame evidence points to the idea that Noelle was still looking for Dess after whatever happened to make her non-present in the story. The calendar in her dark world room (which is based off her internet search history) shows that she was searching for information about December Holiday, and the only results she got were about December 25th. That is to say, Noelle is still searching for Dess. If Dess had died, had her dust spread on her favorite object, and had said object buried, Noelle wouldn’t still be looking for Dess. Final point for why I don’t believe Dess is a dead-dustner, look at the graveyard, there’s no grave for anyone named “December Holiday” or “Dess”. You’d think it dess had indeed died, she’d be buried in the graveyard, but no, nothing is there. I believe that whatever happened to Dess, at the very least the townsfolk BELIEVE she could be alive still. Whether she actually is still alive remains to be seen, but at the very least it seems unlikely that she could be a dustner buried in hometown considering everything we know about her.
what a neat little theory! im glad i came to watch it! i wanted to say, this got me thinking "huh, but doesnt the roaring imply it would be bad for both lightners AND darkners? where's the 'wandering an endless night' part here?" and then i realized- if the roaring implies darkners returning to their object forms... permanently, then maybe the roaring for lightners means that they wont be able to imagine them or see them as anything else other than objects... in other world, losing their ability to dream, to imagine, to make art! imagine if all of a sudden the whole of civilization stopped being able to engage with culture and to imagine things or create new things! people would fall into despair and it would lead to chaos so fast! i believe this is part of why the roaring is so bad to lightners as well.
There has to be a fourth level _between_ ours and the Light World. Like, for example, you say at one point that the player and the SOUL exist on the same level... but they obviously don't.
All my life ive been fascinated by cosmology and speculation about what lies beyond and recursive universes, and seeing deltarune’s narrative analyzed from that angle is super cool!
8:47 the asriel is ralsei theory already covers that... as to how it happened, or why, and the possiblered herrings of it are bountiful but coincide and pile on so well, I am of course referring to Jaru's video, but from pondering on it myself i came up with more. why would a new character suddenly be flowey-ified? i also subscribe to the idea dess tried opening a dark world within a dark world, and the text was was found burried in the game was implying thats how deep she went
but your theory has certainly contributed! the idea of a cosmological axiom really adds to the scale of such a deceptivly small pixelated world. thats what deepening your knowledge on 2 things at the same time does! eventually connections can be strung that the less meticulous glaze over, and it seems to be too "intentional" to possibly be _just acoincidnce!_
I mean if our world weren't real, it would be fine by me. If none of this matters, then it doesn't matter that I'm a failure that can't accomplish anything. And to me, that's comforting in a way.
Search up: determinism and the different types of them. Maybe you do not need to wish our world being fiction for that to happen. There are philosophical theories that do not involve religion (except the Theological determinism). Its 4am, don't feel like explaining them, so search them up
Oh wow I never really connected the thematic implication of Darkers turning into statues. Ofc that would be their true form when the balance between Light & Dark is disturbed. This is a great theory! Also I really like your voice :D
This video felt really educational and fun, I learned a lot about cosmology I didn't know before and I do now think these are concepts Toby Fox's works are constantly playing with. But I am a Vessel Knight truther and this did not change my mind on that.
Yooooooo I think you might have cracked this nut wide open? Of course a darkner legend would be from a darkner's perspective? Though I kind of think maybe *we're* the titans? In the same way lighteners would be giant and all powerful to darkners, wouldn't we be the same to the light world? And wouldn't the appearance of the titans turning darkners to stone make even more sense? From *our* perspective, they're double-fictional, and with our eyes on them they could barely be more than toys to anyone. We see the 'truth' about them, so that's what they become. Or something like that.
I like this theory. It’s simple and straightforward. I’m not sure if I entirely agree with the Dess stuff, but I still really like this interpretation of the egg.
yes!! this is a great video recently my deltarune thoughts have been shifting around between "stuff involving kris" and "stuff involving the grander story as a whole" and like yeah no i think theres Big stuff involving the 3 universes and purpose i LOVE how you put into perspective that the titans are like... lightners, and the STATUES BEING LIKE THEM BEING TOYS ITS LITERALLY SO GRAAHHH ive been so big into thinking about how deltarune relates to fiction (i love when games n stuff in general does fiction / desires of people being manifested into Real Worlds) and like i think this is a lovely contribution to the discussion. one thing *i* personally like to remember and point out is WORLDS' EDGE, as in like... multiple worlds, the edge of shadow etc etc. (twilight reverie penumbra phantasm real) like... isnt a dark fountain just worlds' edge? its the point between light and dark, its where reality and dream meet so perhaps the angels heaven that they banish, would be what the equivalent is... for a "light fountain" between our world and the light world? but also, theres a lot to be said about the usage of Heaven as... actually NOT always being "higher plane of existence" but just as like, a paradise. ralsei does mention "is that your idea of paradise?" so perhaps the angels heaven really is just a dark fountain, and its... well, its someones idea of heaven but i do moreso agree with what you say about it. i think we are the angel, in a sense. heck, i think the red soul embodying the angel is the one exactly consistent thing between both UT and DR i think maybe the game will play with what an "angels heaven" really is. because that can both be the real world that we inhabit... but it can also be a dark world created by, heck, just noelle fiction and the desire to escape, and the way that we are changed and shaped by the fiction we consume... is such an interesting concept. yknow what im thoughtdumping here and im gonna say: i think weird routes will end up being basically just ruining the character development of people, basically getting them Out of being able to have any meaningful change or experiences (we freeze berdly before he ever gets his real character development in the mansion) final note, ill say... i think spamton mentioning "SEEING PAST THE DARK" and "LOOKING INTO HEAVEN" is something that very much fits into this whole theory i just wonder, since hes talking to kris about them BOTH seeing past the dark, if spamton also knows that not even the light world is "real" and theres even Another layer on top of that. like, do the secret bosses actually know that they're not just in "fake worlds" but in fake worlds within a fake world? perhaps...
This is such a refreshing find! I don't necessarily agree with parts of it, but the editing is top notch, the ideas are explained well, and I can see where the ideas are coming from. 10/10 in our age of Deltarune brainrot.
This is a great video! The only problem I have with the theory is the fact that after snowgrave berdly is said to "not wake up." I don't know if he is actually dead or not, but it is a very odd thing to happen if the dark world is 100% fiction.
Thank you! I actually had some thoughts about that which didn't make it into the video: Within the Dark World, Darkners typically cannot die or get hurt (evident by how they flee when their HP drops to zero, how Jevil says "THIS BODY CANNOT BE KILLED!" during his fight, and how the King says that Lancer would have just bounced if he dropped him in CH 1) which all aligns with their nature as objects. Lightners however, are NOT objects, so whatever you do to another Lightner within the Dark World carries over to the Light World. This adds another layer of horror to Snowgrave and any future no-mercy routes because while everything feels like a fantasy, it's all _imaginative play_ that all of the Lightner's are in-fact enacting in _real life_ as well.
@@Loch.mp4 this is a very interesting take that I love, but this DOES have some serious implications for me. You say that darkness can’t get hurt, or die, but what happens after noelle freezes darkness, or the jigsaws react to “BARRY” getting killed. Not to mention, how lancer feels after trying to fight ur way through his battle when he and Susie are together. Also, what is freezing classified as and what happens to spamton in snowgrave
Looking at it this way, wouldn’t it be crazy if we were the Roaring Titans? I’m not entirely convinced that we’d be the Angel, because I believe the Angel is what bridges our world and Deltarune’s. Maybe it’s Gaster, or whoever gave us the soul, or even the soul itself. Regardless of who the Angel actually is, I believe that it would make more sense for us to be the beings that descend upon the ruined light world during The Roaring, possibly against our will. Almost like the dark and light worlds have become so unstable that the barrier between them and us cracks and we’re pulled in. To use your egg analogy, it’d be like punching through a weak spot in the shell with your finger, and then getting said finger stuck in the eggshell. To them, we’d be massive eldritch horrors. To us, we’re bystanders dropped into a fictional world breathing it’s last, so fragile that we’d be seen as beings of unimaginable destruction just for existing in it. That’s why “defeating the Angel and banishing the Angel’s Heaven” would set things right. Severing the connection between our world and theirs would send us home and prevent us from meddling any further. To that effect, I wonder if we’d be able to choose whether we fight alongside Kris and the lightners to stop the Roaring, or if we could align ourselves with the Angel and become the final boss of the game instead.
While I don't agree with dess knight, I do feel like this perspective can tell us a little bit more about the knight. Specifically that they are someone who wants to kill the escape imagination provides. They are probably also the "second speaker" from the gonner maker, the one who takes over and tells us that our choices don't matter.
this makes a lot of sense! even if i think the knight is the mayor and not dess, i still think this explanation works. it also made me think, if ralsei is a being from the dark world that is stronger/has more control over it than the average darkener, would gaster fill the same role for us in the light world? after all, he is pretty clearly above the lightners in some way, and he brings us down from "heaven" into the light world in the same way ralsei brings kris and the others from the light world into the dark world. fun to think about.
Why is noelle the only one with light world colors? Is this a rreference to her importance or just because the colors are so close? And for anyone who is waiting to say berdly is too, that doesnt count since those are also his dark world colors.
I really like the idea of titans just being lightners. Don't think i have ever heard it. Even if it kinda sounds like the titans will be in the light world, u may be wrong.
why does this theory feel like one of those set to stay theories that kinda creates a believed concept accepted as fact. cause think of how plausible the Roaring and Giants are just the player/s accidently having the screen removed between the two realities. or the Darkners having the Layer of darkness suddenly destroyed and they can see the world for what it is. this feels so plausible I feel like it's already been revealed. Amazing theory! I extremely hope more see this, cause I believe this entire concept is equivalent to JaruJaru's Video on the Time Loop theory. but this feels more Grounded more Real.
9:18 I agree with this proposal and at the same time I do not... when you say that something is real or not, you need to mention which reality and/or which of the simulations. After all, whether you are real or not is not so important until a more real entity knocks on your reality
Very interesting analysis video! Great editing, too, & neat to see a cosmological approach to this. I wonder what you think of the hidden menu that makes it seem like it may be a Gaster experiment or something? If The Light World is a simulation, a fiction, does that add another layer? I also hadn't considered how Dess could be trapped in the form of a Darkner. Although, there's hidden dialogue in the files, speculated to be from Dess, which changed with the Chapter 2 demo's release. Re-checking it, the dialogue says "No one can hear me", being uncertain they can hear themself, & hearing "scratching". This suggest senses of sight, hearing, & the ability to speak (Or make noise because instrument?), which might be weird for a mere object, even if it is a Darkner. Uncertain if they can move.
Amazing video, I really really do like this! Just wanted to make a small addition to it, a little asterisk if you will
The same way you pose this concept of "The Beyond" as a universe situated even higher up, there are many things implying that we also have one buried even deeper down: The Depths. From which hell's roar allegedly bubbles, from which the vessel may have spawned, in which that person in the code is likely trapped, etc (though a lot of this is speculative it's also implied pretty strongly).
In all likelihood, this place is another "layer" of Dark World, if the Dark World is the yolk of an egg then The Depths would be like if that yolk was a shell. If that makes any sense at all, lol. That whole "what if it could get darker than dark" thing from the Spamton Sweepstakes back in the day leads me further into that direction
I don't entirely know how this adds to your interpretation, I very much lack the knowledge of cosmology you have, but do with it as you will!
Ohhh that's a really great thought!! It wouldn't surprise me at all if the worlds in deltarune go even deeper
@@Loch.mp4 neoplatonism deltarune edition?
makes a lot of sense!
darker world moment
darker yet darker
"I accidentally broke the 5th wall, now my audience knows they're fictional."
What if the real Deltarune was the *you?*
@@CR1MSONACE Maybe the real Deltarune was the friends we made along the way.
Oh... *If only the current generation knew how inconceivable it truly goes.*
I am always amazed at how, almost three years after the release of chapter 2, people are still coming up with new theories and interpretations of Deltarune. This was genuinely one of the most interesting theory videos I’ve seen, and it’ll probably change the way I see deltarune’s story going from here on out. Great, awesome video!
@blairdactylthis September, yeah
If I was an object i would be grilled cheese that was left on a shelf for 20 years. epic video
literally me
I feel like this should be in a picture frame somewhere
i would be bfdi
purple semi transparent car toy from mcdonalds really resonates with me
@@callmeaprilroseorisha404 I'm actually printing it right now and making a Frame with a 3D Pen
You gotta appreciate when someone brings about an exterior matter, topic or theme into the DELTARUNE space and manages to make an UNIQUE theory with foundations from such theme!
A-MAZING video and theory!
YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS THANK YOU FOR THIS VIDEO IT WENT FROM "hm, that's basically the text" to "ooo okay this is interesting" to "YES THEORY TIME YEY" to "[very loud ice cream]" AAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAWAW
Very good video!
I have to say one thing: the "angel's heaven" is probably where the diagetic menu and character creator is.
That's the depths, not Angel's Heaven
@@megaraptoran1990 They might as well be the same thing
@@motivated2473 they aren't. the depths are associated with the exact opposite of heaven
me when oberon smog piles of dess's dust knight theory arrives to the function.
3:45 In my opinion I would relate this more to Susie and Kris instead of lancer.
Imagine Susie finding out that the player has been controlling Kris the entire time, and thinking that their relationship was never real because she thinks *we forced* Kris be friends with her, and she thinks that they never would’ve been friends with her otherwise.
Not to mention that Ralsei knows *the entire time* that Kris is being possessed by us, which I’m sure would also make Susie freak out once she learns that.
This theory honestly explains why Deltarune feels so personal to me if it's really where Deltarune is headed- it fits in perfectly with my personal philosophy
Awesome sauce video! This also fits in with the symbolism in the family that uses fire magic and the one that uses ice magic: Ralsei representing hell (the Dark World below, focused on serving Lightners) and Noelle representing heaven (the Real World above, opening up an actual choice for the Player with a new route)
oh damn
I feel like a lot of these are ideas that have been swimming around in the fandom for years, but seeing it all laid out with such artistic flair is very special. If we do have some secret purpose in life, you’re hitting yours with this one, chief.
I will continue to love the layered universes theory, the subversion of posing our own reality as in the same system of layered universes as the game is one of the best interpretations for "the edge of the shadow where reality and dream meet" imo.
Though I think its at the very least confusing to describe the dark world as a lesser universe to the light world while them also being literally yin and yang. The dark world is certainly in some aspects lesser than the light world to a thematic extent, but I dont think its entirely clear cut.
That idea is very similar to "Pataphysics".
The idea that the multiverse has narrative stacks, that build upon each other. Who knows? Perhaps we are simply words on a page, from the perspective of another being.
I think the egg metaphor works really well! This editing is so well done and you explained everything perfectly I played deltarune but didn’t know about this theory but I really like it!!!
Personally, I think a matryoshka metaphor, or just no metaphor at all would have been better. I think she went for the egg because the symbolism of the egg in deltarune and whatnot.
Genuinely the best explanation of the roaring out there, it makes so much sense
Hey!! Good video! The editing voice acting and visuals were phoenominal! However I do think it was a biiit scattered, nothing too bad though!
However I do think the lightners being the titans is a bit off. In the roaring it's stated the lightners will need to fend for themselves, lost eternally in an endless night. Combining this with the over abundance of dark fountains, I think it's safe to say the dark worlds will invelope the light world, but because they're colliding with other dark fountains, none of the other darkners will be able to retain their form due to the overlap of their own dark world with another. I think the dark worlds represent the endless night. With them spreading faster then they can be sealed. If I had to guess the titans are a layer above the lightners, but a layer below us the player. I think the lightners themselves being the titans would mess up the story significantly. I think it's also less likley the susie confrontation will be like, "hey lancer isn't real lol." I think it will more be so like, he and the others darkners ARE real, however down to their core, they're objects. Saying they aren't real doesn't make alot of sense in this because like, they ARE, just in their own world, within a world, within our world. Let it be known that, while these characters aren't real in our world, they ARE real in THEIR world. If the egg in a dark world is perfectly real in the dark world, and retains being an egg in the light world, I feel like that should be kind of definitive that the dark world IS real, but most of the beings inside it, cannot retain their form when they cross the boundary into the light world. The same goes for the lightners. They can traverse worlds below them, but It's not possible for them to traverse the world above them, aka us. The egg is assumed to be given by a higher being, (it's just gaster ok everything is gaster all is gaster) and because of this, I feel like he is more so able to have more of a bridge between the dark world and light world because he's assumed to be above both of them.
Tl;dr, the darkners ARE real, but simply cannot go outside the boundary the dark world has. And the titans are not the lightners.
Another quick thing, I feel like dess isn't dead. Moreso missing. If the secret text found in the code i anything to go off of, she's most likley in a VERY dark place. Ie, bunker darkworld, or the depths ie, gaster. And dess having connection to gaster and by proxy the darkworlds, while a good theory, I feel like is going to be executed alot differently.
All we can really do in the meantime is wait til 2090 for chapters 3 and 4.
Thank you!! I really appreciate the critique ^^ my thoughts are usually a scrambled mess which is probably why it felt a little scattered. I'll try to work on that next time!
Also, I agree with a lot of the thoughts you mentioned and I also believe that the Darkners are real within their own world. It's similar to the narrative in Undertale and how, while the characters aren't real to us, whatever we do their universe (whether that be freeing monster-kind, murdering everyone, or everything in between), is very real to them.
The Roaring is still a huge ??? because the line between fiction and reality in Deltarune so hazy. Through the Light World's perspective, I personally interpret the words "Leaving the Lightners to fend for themselves Lost eternally in an endless night..." in a figurative sense rather than literal, as in the Lightner's ceasing to engage in the comfort of objects.
And to add on to that thought, perhaps it would be a _literal_ endless night within the Dark World too...! (like, once Lightners stop playing with toys, the Darkners lose their purpose and the dark world disappears and becomes an endless night)
Loved it :) Really fun take on the layers of reality and what the Titans really are. People rarely talk about Deltarune's existentialist themes as thoughtfully and emotionally as you have here.
There's a good point to talk about with religion in this context.
Most religions believe that a God/gods have a specific purpose for you to fulfill. Some people accept it, and some people fight back. And most people are blissfully unaware. Sound familiar?
As someone who personally struggles with that specific area, it got me thinking...
Maybe I'm delving too deep in the mess, idk...
OMG LOCH YOU'RE A DELTATUBER NOW!!! :D
nice work good theory I'm so proud ^^
THANK YOUUU SM!!!! ;O; i shall proudly don the deltatuber hat 🧢
If i was an object, i would be a abandoned plush left to mold and get dusty because i am "impure".
The early on point about if we're on an Alien TV unironically made me laugh, because I'm apparently "crazy" enough to view that as looking to small scale wise.
...
No I will not expand on it because this is the kind of thing I'll verbalize for like 30 minutes on sometimes. But I will sum it up: Reality is fiction. Books, TV shows, video games, they all believe they are real, but we know we are fictional. Whatever is above us has the same thing. So does the thing above it and it's infinitely spanning. Meaning that instead of focusing on that, we should focus on our perspective, because that's all we see, and that's all that matters.
Ok guess I was wrong about a short summary. But it's a pretty concise explanation. Btw I'm 19, and started thinking about this in 11th grade in Highschool. I'm not saying that as a flex, I'm saying that as a "hey this will affect you for a while mentally majorly in a negative way, and I know because I had to process this" kind of thing. It causes me to wonder if it was worth learning the truth, or was ignorance truly bliss...
Edit: OK SO I HADN'T FINISHED THE VIDEO YET WAIT A MINUTE-
This video was really interesting, I liked it!
I am curious about why the roaring between the dark and light worlds would cause all of the consequences it does?
They say "Light is subsumed by shadow", so it seems like the darkworld becomes the higher layer or something?
But also the darkners can't handle it and turn to stone, so its like they're not built for direct interaction with us?
And the Titans being lightners wouldn't really make sense in that scenario? Perhaps its the lightners being treated with the darkworld rules?
The idea of the deltarune cosmology being like an egg is interesting too, because if a rupture can happen between dark and light, is someone trying to do something similar between our reality and the light world?
If there is a symmetry between these two interactions, then the roaring must be analogous to something in the real world.
In certain cosmology, the Light is The Word (the Logos), the Script of the Story the Dark Worlds follow. So, the Dark coming up takes the Script away. Why? Because the Lightners lose their Imagination. so, the Darkners become objects again. And because the Imagination Consciousness is gone, The Lightners become Titans and throw the Darkners away.
The Roaring is the Players getting tired of playing Imagination to Sooth Pain and turning the video game off. The Screen goes Dark and we forget they exist. Roaring/screaming/not coping.
The, lightners breaking into the real world, theory stuff you came up with, yeah, can you guess why it won't happen? Clue: the lightners you think are gonna connect with our world are on a videogame.
@@vencedor1774 Do you know? the subconscious mind cannot tell the difference between real and fiction. If it is in the Real World by virtue of being in your subconscious mind, it affects what you say and do. Like your comment.
@@Fragmentsinfractals488 What's "it"?
the titans being real lightners relative to darkners is an incredibly cool idea
Question: how is The Roaring going to play out?
Will the Delta-Warriors get trapped in the now doomed darks worlds like Dess?
If the Titans are lightners, then will Kris and Susie become Titans?
And who is the Angel?
The ending to this video is actually extremely wholesome, thank you for making this!
6:48 maybe disconnected layers cannot interact and Gaster saw what happens if they do.
7:19 Spamton wanted to escape the dark world or maybe even ascend to ours because he wanted absolute freedom which you can’t get in our world.
8:08 who is Dess?
I've always thought of it as fictional therapy in a way, especially for the characters themselves. If us players are trying to escape from reality for just a few moments to enjoy a game, then we're watching the Lightners do the same when they jump into Dark Worlds. The Roaring, the bosses, the knight, the titans, all cataclysmic stakes designed to push these characters to be better. Very much like in Dungeons and Dragons or any other rpg campaigns. You give them an almost religious prophecy to follow, like how the Dungeon Master invites players and people from all over. Place themselves and their characters in high-stakes scenarios for fun while simultaneously developing their real world character as well.
A safe place to explore, to harm objects instead of people, with world-ending problems put before you, and you're forced to solve them. Aren't these what Dark Worlds are for so far?
Kris' loneliness resolved as they find a friend in Susie, confiding in her. Susie's violence tempered into heroism. Noelle's fearfulness giving way to bravery as she stands up to Queen. Berdly's arrogance replaced with modesty, and refilled with a genuine desire to help his friends. Even Ralsei is very much in the shoes of the Dungeon Master sometimes. Providing lore? Giving advice? Encouraging interactive actions instead of just fighting. Catering to the Darkners and Lightners' development.
Because after a Dark World is sealed, or the DM ends the session to a long campaign, that courage and tenacity stays with the players, even beyond the game into their own lives.
It's fun to see them grow despite their flaws for sure.
Undertale exists as something that breaks the fourth wall of video games as a whole and giving those powers of being able to go back and do things differently, and to give the players more of a critique of their morals and style, essentially. The characters don’t exist in a vacuum, they are aware of the player dying, coming back, and doing things differently. Breaking the fourth wall is an acknowledging that there are higher powers in a way that sometimes serves a purpose in the narrative, or for comedic effect because it’s talking to the player. But still, even if characters believe they are talking to that higher power, them committing to that is still part of that fiction. It’s like telling them that they broke out of a prison, but that place they went to is the prison. (Spoilers for Danganronpa: V3, and DDLC..) In the ending of Danganronpa: V3, it’s revealed that the killing game, remnants of despair, the future foundation, all don’t exist. Their characters don’t even exist. But it’s also revealed that the killing game IS fictional in their fiction. They are still unaware that their existence, even after learning the truth, is still planned and written by people who are outside their reality. It’s an ultimate fake-real-fiction that encompasses them. Then for DDLC, Monika, in her reality, thinks she’s talking to somebody in real life, but from our perspective, she’s talking to someone in real life, but it’s just doing that because it was made to do that. Monika thinks she’s real, and wants to be as real as the “us” she’s talking to, but in reality, the truth is that she is. She’s just as fabricated as the people she wishes to be. And she has no free will because whatever she says or does isn’t even a thing she does, it’s the people who made her. So, if Toby Fox wanted to make this a story about Fiction Vs. Reality, the characters could say to themselves that they aren’t real, and them saying that they aren’t real is also not real. And nothing they do can ever change themselves from thinking outside the reality’s perspective. It’s like simulation theory in real life. Which means every layer of meta-reality turned out to be the same level of meta-ness all along. If it’s true, which I don’t know, but that could just be written by me because I have no free will and someone else is writing it for me. Oh god.. I’m going to go eat food now and try to forget about this…
I mean...That does sound a bit like determinism, a philosophical theory that states that everything is already determined to happen. I DO believe in determinism, specifically in Logical determinism, Physical determinism, Predeterminism and Hard determinism. Search them up, they are really similar to what you are proposing.
I think you may have just predicted part of, if not the whole idea Toby Fox is going for. Awesome video!
While this is an amazing way to phrase something I've lacked the ability to myself, abd I love the deep dive into cosmology in general, I feel like you may have missed a step.
I would like to propose that we, the player, are The Beyond, while The Shell is the .exe file itself. There does seem to be some evidence this may be the intent. Survey_Progeam, the strange naming conventions on files related to the game engine, "friend" being one such oddly named file but seen in Queen's basement, menus being diagetic to some degree, the pre-Ch1 clear menu narration. Maybe the fact that there's multiple save files could even be part of this "vertical cosmology" concept.
Speaking of, I didn't know that was a term! Thats super cool! I'm definitely gonna be looking deeper into cosmological terminology now that I know there is specific names for different aspects and configurations of the universe. Thank you for the new research topic.
You dropedd such master pice and still with only 395 subscribers??? Everything about your chanel is just so perfect-
👏👏👏 Wonderful video presented in very cute manner. I would just suggest the video title or other video titles you make in the future start whit ,,Deltarune Theory - etc etc..,,, that might help whit the TH-cam algorithm .
I don't know intentional or not but your inner Chills breaks through sometimes. Number 15: the roaring
So, kind of like how kris is a video game character to us, we could be like that to a higher world. The dark world to the lightners is like the light world is to us, like we are to another higher level, stacking up forever? Im sure if i was a darkner i'd be trying to get into the light world, who might try to reach us, and we might reach some level where we are like gods to humankind as humankind is to deltarune. Im not sure if this makes sense, but its still something to consider.
So, the "Dess is this world's flowey" 's just Jaru's asriel is dead theory? But the asriel is dead makes more sense because it would imply that the flowey of this universe is asriel too.
Loved this video!! Immediately hooked onto your presentation style, and the very coherent way you express your ideas. This is certainly a great lens to look at these worlds through, especially what you say about the titans as these eldritch beings. Makes a lot of sense
This presentation is INCREDIBLE and the idea is super interesting too! Consider me a fan!
the idea of the lightners being the titans isn’t something i’ve really seen brought up before, but… yeah, that would suck if the big bads from the prophecy are hometown residents. and susie having to find out about all the darkners not being real… this could be a sad direction for the story indeed
Loved the video! ❤ Adorable and lore relevant
whoa!! this theory is actually really interesting, and it for sure made sense. what i really appreciate in videos are well-written subtitles, and these are definitely great ones. i also appreciate the content warning! i’ll be sure to check out your channel, you deserve it.
Criminally underrated
If we'll take the egg metaphor seriously, I think the yolk represents only Ralsei's dark world, the main one. And all the other ones are chicken embryons. They start out as a small black dot inside of the egg, but overtime they grow into a decently sized living organism, a Roaring, eating all of the egg's contents along the way - the dark and light worlds.
About the Roraing, remember that if it happens all darkners will turn into statues and lightners will forever be surrounded in darkness? So, what if the Roaring is just our real world? Where all that fantasy and magic does not exist? Where you're easily vulnerable to depression and stuff without having a way to cure it with something external or even otherworldly like in Deltarune? All inanimated objects are just darkners turned into statues and everyone is a lightner surrounded in darkness called reality.
8:25 I, personally, disagree with this, and I’ll tell you why.
Whatever happened to Dess, Noelle’s family, and the town as a whole, doesn’t THINK she’s dead, at the very least. Most ingame evidence points to the idea that Noelle was still looking for Dess after whatever happened to make her non-present in the story. The calendar in her dark world room (which is based off her internet search history) shows that she was searching for information about December Holiday, and the only results she got were about December 25th. That is to say, Noelle is still searching for Dess. If Dess had died, had her dust spread on her favorite object, and had said object buried, Noelle wouldn’t still be looking for Dess.
Final point for why I don’t believe Dess is a dead-dustner, look at the graveyard, there’s no grave for anyone named “December Holiday” or “Dess”. You’d think it dess had indeed died, she’d be buried in the graveyard, but no, nothing is there.
I believe that whatever happened to Dess, at the very least the townsfolk BELIEVE she could be alive still. Whether she actually is still alive remains to be seen, but at the very least it seems unlikely that she could be a dustner buried in hometown considering everything we know about her.
what a neat little theory! im glad i came to watch it! i wanted to say, this got me thinking "huh, but doesnt the roaring imply it would be bad for both lightners AND darkners? where's the 'wandering an endless night' part here?" and then i realized- if the roaring implies darkners returning to their object forms... permanently, then maybe the roaring for lightners means that they wont be able to imagine them or see them as anything else other than objects... in other world, losing their ability to dream, to imagine, to make art! imagine if all of a sudden the whole of civilization stopped being able to engage with culture and to imagine things or create new things! people would fall into despair and it would lead to chaos so fast! i believe this is part of why the roaring is so bad to lightners as well.
Great theory and analysis ! It really fits Deltarune's themes, it's very accurate.
(Also your art is so cute ! ^^)
There has to be a fourth level _between_ ours and the Light World. Like, for example, you say at one point that the player and the SOUL exist on the same level... but they obviously don't.
I love the editing for this!! I really enjoyed this take it was super interesting :)
All my life ive been fascinated by cosmology and speculation about what lies beyond and recursive universes, and seeing deltarune’s narrative analyzed from that angle is super cool!
NAHHHH this is SUCH a wonderful analysis and theory!!!! Will forever color how I see deltarune now. And I love that art at the end omg!!
This was very well made! Don't worry about it making sense, it did! Excited to see what else you come up with!
Did you draw the thumbnail? ralsei looks amazing i love it.
Yes I did, thank you! :D
Great, excellent video! One of the best Deltarune videos I've seen out there.
great video! i'm glad people are still making deltarune content. proud to be the 1,000th like.
8:47
the asriel is ralsei theory
already covers that...
as to how it happened, or why, and the possiblered herrings of it are bountiful but coincide and pile on so well, I am of course referring to Jaru's video, but from pondering on it myself i came up with more.
why would a new character suddenly be flowey-ified? i also subscribe to the idea dess tried opening a dark world within a dark world, and the text was was found burried in the game was implying thats how deep she went
but your theory has certainly contributed! the idea of a cosmological axiom really adds to the scale of such a deceptivly small pixelated world.
thats what deepening your knowledge on 2 things at the same time does! eventually connections can be strung that the less meticulous glaze over, and it seems to be too "intentional" to possibly be _just acoincidnce!_
wow. just wow. this is an AMAZING video, this is such a fantastic, well worded theory video that really encapsulates the cosmos!!!
I mean if our world weren't real, it would be fine by me. If none of this matters, then it doesn't matter that I'm a failure that can't accomplish anything. And to me, that's comforting in a way.
Search up: determinism and the different types of them. Maybe you do not need to wish our world being fiction for that to happen. There are philosophical theories that do not involve religion (except the Theological determinism). Its 4am, don't feel like explaining them, so search them up
Yes.yes. yes.
This is what Im talking about.
Yes. yes. yes.
*_-the ceo of 💀_*
i long for deltarune theory videos and i enjoy every minute and seconds of waiting for its release and cannot live without deltarune theories
8:32 monsters in deltarune don't turn to dust in deltarune
Oh wow I never really connected the thematic implication of Darkers turning into statues. Ofc that would be their true form when the balance between Light & Dark is disturbed.
This is a great theory! Also I really like your voice :D
This video felt really educational and fun, I learned a lot about cosmology I didn't know before and I do now think these are concepts Toby Fox's works are constantly playing with. But I am a Vessel Knight truther and this did not change my mind on that.
I really liked this lore video! I hope you'll make more. This was very enjoyable.
Yooooooo I think you might have cracked this nut wide open? Of course a darkner legend would be from a darkner's perspective? Though I kind of think maybe *we're* the titans? In the same way lighteners would be giant and all powerful to darkners, wouldn't we be the same to the light world? And wouldn't the appearance of the titans turning darkners to stone make even more sense? From *our* perspective, they're double-fictional, and with our eyes on them they could barely be more than toys to anyone. We see the 'truth' about them, so that's what they become. Or something like that.
I like this theory. It’s simple and straightforward. I’m not sure if I entirely agree with the Dess stuff, but I still really like this interpretation of the egg.
i love your visuals you use definitely subscribing!!!
6:09 This was a brilliant insight!
This video is great, i really love the editing and script
Your intro and icon is cute! And such a nice video. PlayerCarter shouted you out. I'm definitely giving you a sub.
Regarding your Desstrument theory, the onion octopus thingy did mention that there is music coming from the underwater, soooo...
yes!! this is a great video
recently my deltarune thoughts have been shifting around between "stuff involving kris" and "stuff involving the grander story as a whole" and like
yeah no i think theres Big stuff involving the 3 universes and purpose
i LOVE how you put into perspective that the titans are like... lightners, and the STATUES BEING LIKE THEM BEING TOYS ITS LITERALLY SO
GRAAHHH
ive been so big into thinking about how deltarune relates to fiction (i love when games n stuff in general does fiction / desires of people being manifested into Real Worlds) and like
i think this is a lovely contribution to the discussion.
one thing *i* personally like to remember and point out is WORLDS' EDGE, as in like... multiple worlds, the edge of shadow etc etc. (twilight reverie penumbra phantasm real)
like... isnt a dark fountain just worlds' edge? its the point between light and dark, its where reality and dream meet
so perhaps the angels heaven that they banish, would be what the equivalent is... for a "light fountain" between our world and the light world?
but also, theres a lot to be said about the usage of Heaven as... actually NOT always being "higher plane of existence" but just as like, a paradise. ralsei does mention "is that your idea of paradise?"
so perhaps the angels heaven really is just a dark fountain, and its... well, its someones idea of heaven
but i do moreso agree with what you say about it. i think we are the angel, in a sense. heck, i think the red soul embodying the angel is the one exactly consistent thing between both UT and DR
i think maybe the game will play with what an "angels heaven" really is. because that can both be the real world that we inhabit... but it can also be a dark world created by, heck, just noelle
fiction and the desire to escape, and the way that we are changed and shaped by the fiction we consume... is such an interesting concept. yknow what im thoughtdumping here and im gonna say: i think weird routes will end up being basically just ruining the character development of people, basically getting them Out of being able to have any meaningful change or experiences (we freeze berdly before he ever gets his real character development in the mansion)
final note, ill say... i think spamton mentioning "SEEING PAST THE DARK" and "LOOKING INTO HEAVEN" is something that very much fits into this whole theory
i just wonder, since hes talking to kris about them BOTH seeing past the dark, if spamton also knows that not even the light world is "real" and theres even Another layer on top of that. like, do the secret bosses actually know that they're not just in "fake worlds" but in fake worlds within a fake world? perhaps...
This is such a refreshing find! I don't necessarily agree with parts of it, but the editing is top notch, the ideas are explained well, and I can see where the ideas are coming from. 10/10 in our age of Deltarune brainrot.
You have nice teacher voice :) It makes me so happy to listen to you talk
This is a great video! The only problem I have with the theory is the fact that after snowgrave berdly is said to "not wake up." I don't know if he is actually dead or not, but it is a very odd thing to happen if the dark world is 100% fiction.
Thank you! I actually had some thoughts about that which didn't make it into the video:
Within the Dark World, Darkners typically cannot die or get hurt (evident by how they flee when their HP drops to zero, how Jevil says "THIS BODY CANNOT BE KILLED!" during his fight, and how the King says that Lancer would have just bounced if he dropped him in CH 1) which all aligns with their nature as objects.
Lightners however, are NOT objects, so whatever you do to another Lightner within the Dark World carries over to the Light World. This adds another layer of horror to Snowgrave and any future no-mercy routes because while everything feels like a fantasy, it's all _imaginative play_ that all of the Lightner's are in-fact enacting in _real life_ as well.
@@Loch.mp4 this is a very interesting take that I love, but this DOES have some serious implications for me. You say that darkness can’t get hurt, or die, but what happens after noelle freezes darkness, or the jigsaws react to “BARRY” getting killed. Not to mention, how lancer feels after trying to fight ur way through his battle when he and Susie are together. Also, what is freezing classified as and what happens to spamton in snowgrave
Looking at it this way, wouldn’t it be crazy if we were the Roaring Titans? I’m not entirely convinced that we’d be the Angel, because I believe the Angel is what bridges our world and Deltarune’s. Maybe it’s Gaster, or whoever gave us the soul, or even the soul itself. Regardless of who the Angel actually is, I believe that it would make more sense for us to be the beings that descend upon the ruined light world during The Roaring, possibly against our will. Almost like the dark and light worlds have become so unstable that the barrier between them and us cracks and we’re pulled in. To use your egg analogy, it’d be like punching through a weak spot in the shell with your finger, and then getting said finger stuck in the eggshell. To them, we’d be massive eldritch horrors. To us, we’re bystanders dropped into a fictional world breathing it’s last, so fragile that we’d be seen as beings of unimaginable destruction just for existing in it. That’s why “defeating the Angel and banishing the Angel’s Heaven” would set things right. Severing the connection between our world and theirs would send us home and prevent us from meddling any further. To that effect, I wonder if we’d be able to choose whether we fight alongside Kris and the lightners to stop the Roaring, or if we could align ourselves with the Angel and become the final boss of the game instead.
Never heard this idea before this is so sick love it
My favorite utdr theory video EVER
While I don't agree with dess knight, I do feel like this perspective can tell us a little bit more about the knight. Specifically that they are someone who wants to kill the escape imagination provides. They are probably also the "second speaker" from the gonner maker, the one who takes over and tells us that our choices don't matter.
this makes a lot of sense! even if i think the knight is the mayor and not dess, i still think this explanation works. it also made me think, if ralsei is a being from the dark world that is stronger/has more control over it than the average darkener, would gaster fill the same role for us in the light world? after all, he is pretty clearly above the lightners in some way, and he brings us down from "heaven" into the light world in the same way ralsei brings kris and the others from the light world into the dark world. fun to think about.
ooooooh I didn't know how it didn't occur to me that the titans are just real lightners!!
loved the video💕
glad you understand the worlds. what will he show us? what is his goal. I believe it will be beautiful.
i love this video, that short Dess hypothetical had me instantly subscribe
Yo this is an amazing video I loved it :)
This makes SO MUCH SENSE!
Cool video! I absolutely love the thumbnail :)
Why is noelle the only one with light world colors? Is this a rreference to her importance or just because the colors are so close?
And for anyone who is waiting to say berdly is too, that doesnt count since those are also his dark world colors.
You really committed to the egg gags lol 😭
the production quality..... ❤
I really like the idea of titans just being lightners. Don't think i have ever heard it. Even if it kinda sounds like the titans will be in the light world, u may be wrong.
this videos actually makignme tweak rn this is SOOO good
OMG, this video is AMAZING!!!
aw this is such a well put together video.
HOW DID WE NOT THINK THE TITANS COULD BE LIGHTNERS OMG
This is really well made
why does this theory feel like one of those set to stay theories that kinda creates a believed concept accepted as fact. cause think of how plausible the Roaring and Giants are just the player/s accidently having the screen removed between the two realities. or the Darkners having the Layer of darkness suddenly destroyed and they can see the world for what it is. this feels so plausible I feel like it's already been revealed.
Amazing theory! I extremely hope more see this, cause I believe this entire concept is equivalent to JaruJaru's Video on the Time Loop theory. but this feels more Grounded more Real.
piles of dess’s dust…
9:18 I agree with this proposal and at the same time I do not... when you say that something is real or not, you need to mention which reality and/or which of the simulations. After all, whether you are real or not is not so important until a more real entity knocks on your reality
This egg cosmos seems oddly... frog shaped...
Maybe the real Lancer is the friend made along the way in chapter 1.
If darkners aren’t real to those in the light world, then how did spamton send spam emails to Noelle before his dark world was even created?
Very interesting analysis video! Great editing, too, & neat to see a cosmological approach to this. I wonder what you think of the hidden menu that makes it seem like it may be a Gaster experiment or something? If The Light World is a simulation, a fiction, does that add another layer?
I also hadn't considered how Dess could be trapped in the form of a Darkner. Although, there's hidden dialogue in the files, speculated to be from Dess, which changed with the Chapter 2 demo's release. Re-checking it, the dialogue says "No one can hear me", being uncertain they can hear themself, & hearing "scratching". This suggest senses of sight, hearing, & the ability to speak (Or make noise because instrument?), which might be weird for a mere object, even if it is a Darkner. Uncertain if they can move.
You're telling me the universe was made just for Deltarune?!?!?!