“Does this town have a therapist?” It’s the roaring knight. Clearly the reason they keep opening dark fountains is to let the town’s teenagers have group therapy sessions
Ralsei being made into a butler and then somewhat pushed aside by Queen is a great metaphor for him having the responsibilities of the prophecy dumped upon him and then being left entirely to his own devices until it was time for him to work to fulfill it.
Interesting fact is that Toriel actively hugs Kris apparently frequently. While Asgore, when we first see him in game, backs off from his hug quickly before reminding himself that Kris doesn't like hugs. I think more than just not understand Kris, Toriel is either oblivious to many of their boundaries or doesn't respect them. She barely remarks that Kris is being weird while random townsfolk realize Kris is acting different now. I think Toriel doesn't know how to love her children, while Asgore was the more active parent. Whatever caused those two to separate, Kris being with Toriel seems like the worst outcome. Probably born out of Asgore's fluffy pushover personality. Man Kris can't catch a break.
its so sad, maybe kris is just tired of remind her that they doesn't like certain things, after all, what's the point if she is going to forget or not care anyway?
Its even sadder when asgore admits he can't have Kris sleep over because of his financial situation (probably a combination of his depression of not being able to see his children as often and loosing his original job to something out of his control) asgore seem to understand Kris has boundaries and never over steps them , he's dosent try to pity Kris either asgore holds his happy persona without dragging down Kris with his current situation....where as toriel seems to rope Kris into her resentment of asgore whether aware of it or not
@@afasdfasafd314 It's literally what happens when a couple gets divorced, the mother will almost always get custody, regardless if they are actually fit to take care of the kid or not.
@@carmenolle5967 i am guess germany because of asgore boss music name he based off a trope in german fairytales where the human hero travels to a mountain to slay a evil monster and become the mountain king....
Queen also uses the acid to shield herself in the fight, and a major part of the fight is forcing her to run out, either by drinking all of it, or the much more effective violently destroying it. Much like how people use alcohol to shield themselves from the outside world. When she forms the shield it puts a wall between the heroes and herself and Berdly... much like how alcoholism can put a wall between people and their friends and family.
Oh my God and that could tie into why fighting the shield is more effective- sure one way to get someone to run out of alcohol is to get them to drink it all and either lose access or get so drunk is scares them into wanting to change. But it's much more effective to just cut them off, in this case by destroying it.
That Berdley situation kinda makes me feel bad for him, because if he DOESN'T get the attention he so desires from his parents, and instead has to "be smart" to recieve the recognition of his fellow monsters, then I feel SUPER bad for killing him in the Snowgrave Route.
@@cherylsmusic6014 There's debate, but personally I think that's the most likely scenario. Monsters turn into dust when they die, and he didn't. His death would also have a massive impact on Noelle and probably on Kris and even Susie as well, something that would radiate throughout remaining chapters. I don't think it's possible to account for such a sweeping change in the future chapters since there are so many left and there is supposed to be only one ending.
@@isabellaslack7220 there is a coma like state for monsters its called "fallen down" and the monsters in that state turn into dust after some time So maybe berdly is that state
I'm guessing that Chapter 3 could reasonably see toriel's flaws come into play a bit more. Something I realized is that if (more like when honestly) Toriel and Ralsei meet up, they're probably not going to get along. Honestly, I think they're gonna hate each other. Think about it; Toriel's not gonna become a party member. She's not gonna listen to Kris tell her what to do in battles or dangerous situations or whatever, knowing Toriel, she's gonna try to be the 'adult' of the situation and 'save the children' or whatever. If I had to guess, she's not going to think that Kris should be the leader but rather she herself should be the leader because she's the "Adult" of the group. And, additionally, I think that's going to lead to major conflict with ralsei, who firmly believes in the prophecy and that Kris is the only one who can lead to the survival of the world. I don't think Ralsei is just going to *let* toriel take control. And Ralsei has *nothing* to lose that I can think of by arguing with Toriel; Toriel has *zero* authority over Ralsei, and if anything, it's the opposite, because Ralsei is the PRINCE. (Though, whether he's prince of the entire dark world or prince of castle town dark world is kinda unclear to my knowledge) So ultimately I think we might end up seeing Ralsei be *very mad* with Toriel, which is definitely something I look forward to seeing in Chapter 3.
That's a fascinating concept! Still, though, part of me is doubtful that chapter 3 will awknoledge Toriel as in the wrong in any way, but the idea that she would clash with Ralsei like that, especially knowing that Susie likes both Toriel AND Ralsei, is really cool!
@@joshfilms4088 But Kris's vision will already have been obscured by all the family friendly lollypop smoke, so Ralsei will just say she's sleeping afterwards.
I can just imagine Susie *exploding* at Toriel at one point, particularly if Kris' Beloved Smother winds up making things absurdly more difficult than they need to be. "You're the adult. So what? Do you have the *slightest* idea where the [curse variant of "heck" because I can't even bring myself to say mild swears] we even are? Do you even know what to DO?" "I-" "NO YOU DON'T! You don't know ANYTHING about this place! Being an adult does NOT give you ANY place to TELL US WHAT TO DO, when YOU don't have ANY experience in a world like this, whereas Kris and I have TWO GOD[DARN] ADVENTURES worth of experience in worlds like this! WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING, YOU DON'T, SO SHUT UP AND LET KRIS LEAD!" "But I'm-" "YOU ONLY KNOW HOW TO LEAD KRIS IN THE LIGHT WORLD! YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO LEAD THEM IN A DARK WORLD! I DON'T CARE THAT YOU'RE THEIR MOM, AND THEY DON'T CARE EITHER! THEY'RE THE ONE WHO KNOWS WHAT TO DO, NOT YOU! You can get back to bossing THEM around when you get home! WHEN YOU'RE IN A WORLD WHERE YOU KNOW THE GOD[DARN] ROPES!"
Toriel being prone to alcohol abuse is something I didn't click on. Rudy even mentions that Toriel was the party animal out of the three of them. Plus the idea of turning a home into a prison parallels undertale's tutorial, in both universes she provides a 'loving home' by not allowing them their freedom. Very excited to see how this plays out.
Yeah, I've noticed something with UT and DR that connect the two. They are the same universe, except for the fact that in DR the human vs monster war never happened. That's why Undyne is still a "protector" figure in DR, she hasn't lost an eye because instead of being a soldier she's a police officer. Burgerpants is still working an average fast food job. Asriel is still a "golden child". Asgore still loves flowers, Alphys is still a nervous, low self esteemed, and works a job that's only a little less intense than ROyal Scientist. Everyone's the same, but different. They've been changed by the circumstances around them. Something that still interests me is how Gaster is related, was he ever a school teacher? What did he do in his offtime instead of weird DT experiments? And *_is he the KNIGHT???_*
just realized in the undertale alarm clock she gets omega drunk because of the xxxxxxx adult drink mettaton gave her but according to the most trusthworthy version of flowey she has done this before
@@QUBIQUBED my current theory, he wants to keep having adventures with Susie and ralsie his only real friends and the only people to actually treat him like a person with desires and hobbies
after hearing this theory, especially the Kris part, the dialogue line from the final boss battle where Queen says "And Kris... Ok I Don't Remember What You Like" suddenly seems to hit in a different light...
Another note about Susie not connecting with her mom, is that she was incredibly surprised when Ralsei created a room for her that was a) JUST for her and b) was focused on what she liked. Throughout both chapters whenever someone did something for her that fit her interests she was often surprised and happy. She said Lancer cared about her contributions and was psyched when Kris showed her the moss in the alleyway.
@@oncefighting I’m surprised no one mentions this much because it always got me thinking about what her home life is like if she didn’t feel the need to call her parent or guardian to let them know her whereabouts and whether she was in safety. Most likely experiencing parent neglect which could possibly be why she has a closed off personality. Because her parents don’t care about her so why should anyone else? (In her mindset, obviously everyone should care about Susie! That’s why everyone has a crush on her!)
And then there's Noelle giving Susie chalks (which is something she ate when don't have anything better), Susie just mentioned Noelle's skewed priorities.
Snow grave route already Hits different due to berdly caring about Noelle and actually being a big part of neutral and pacifist route. Now it hits different because berdly was abandoned and left to rot and ignore just like what his mother does to him.
Same! I don't like him as much as some of the other characters, but now that I see the possible reason for why he acts the way he does, it makes me feel so bad for him.
i thought all the motherly stuff also ties in well with the internet basically raising children today. Parents handing kids a tablet like its a semi-permanent babysitter might as well be a mother as well. She kinda reflects that in her battle speech about everyone finding solace in dumping their woes and surrending their free will to the comforting bosom of the internet, which queen finds herself a proxy for as a laptop computer. Might be getting too philosophical with that but I think its interesting to consider.
I think by "Pure darkness" you mentioned in Ralsei's segment, they mean a refined, carefully crafted dark fountain, in contrast to the sloppily made ones created when someone just slams the ground with a sharp object. The classroom fountain, library fountain, and the one Kris made on Tori's house are made of raw darkness made on a whim by someone just trying to get something done. The Castle Town fountain was probably made a long, long time ago around the same time the legend of Deltarune was created. Mostly speculative, has almost nothing to do with Queen, really just my interpretation ,but ibvdbvieubiubviuv.
@@kookiautumn1710 It also explains why Ralsei doesn’t turn to stone in other dark worlds, being the *Prince* of the Dark Castle Town pure darkness fountain, he essentially has admin privileges.
that would explain why the first section and Castletown don't really equate to any real world objects for a closet.(other than _maybe_ the dusty, cloud-y things, which every treats as chalk as though it was fact, but I don't know)
Good point, but I still believe the 100% darkness theory Put a freshwater fish (a Darkner from 1 world) in saltwater (a different Dark World), it will die If the objects or even programs in the Light World can influence the Dark World, they should affect the fountain too Or under the theory that Dark Worlds still exist without the fountain and are just inaccessible without a fountain, it is likely the impurities in the world itself that turns them to stone Try shoving a playing card into a computer's hard drive Also if it was made thousands of years ago, who built the school there, why did they build a school next to an infinite pillar of intricate darkness, and *_HOW_* ?
When people say that Ralsei isn’t a darkner because he doesn’t turn to stone in character 2 makes no sense, because the original star walker also don’t turn to stone, so are they not a darkner also?
Also, ralsei comes from a pure dark fountain, a type of fountain that can give any darkner form, so that's probably why he can exist under other fountains as well
Starwalker does turn to stone, but I don’t remember the exact cut off point for his petrification. Though I also want to bring up how nobody talks about Ralsei not being petrified in the Card Kingdom either, cause that place and Castle Town are completely separate dark worlds, separated by the door that connects the closet to the abandoned classroom, which becomes the great golden door we pass through in chapter 1.
Lancer only turns to stone once he is brought out of kris’ pocket and the same thing happens with rouxls. In other words, a darkner has to actually be exposed to an incompatible dark world in order to turn to stone. The original starwalker is never brought out of the inventory, so everything checks out. As for why rouxls took longer to turn to stone, it’s either related to power level or comedic timing.
"i hate berdly" (oh boy better prepare for needless slander) "here's a well crafted explanation for the universal mother in berdly writing him really well and even more tragically than he already was" oh thank god i'm so proud you contained yourself and gave berdly some credit
I can genuinely dislike a character, but still engage with them as part of the story. Sadly, this is not something most people do... I can personally never properly empathise with Berdley, but I can still objectively understand his emotions and motivations, y'know?
@@kookiautumn1710 yeah good on you for being able to understand these things and not give berdly any needless slander that is absolutely not what he is like most people seem to of course i can empathize with berdly a lot especially considering a friend of mine who struggles with being in the gifted role but its fine to not be able to relate i cant relate with noelle spilling her spaghetti every fucking second now can i
Berdly was so over the top annoying and obnoxious that it actually made me love him. He's the kinda of character you love to hate or see get punished, like Daffy Duck.
@@kookiautumn1710 at least you didn't just boil him down to "he's homophobic, misogynistic and what not" because those arguments completely miss a big detail of birdlys character, the only person birdly ever genuine kindness from is Noelle, and because he's not used to it he missundetands and believes Noelle has a one sided crush on him , but he also wouldn't want to risk loosing her so he never brings it up..until his confidence boost from Susie which makes him finally comfort Noelle about it (despite the fact its a massive misunderstanding and he's to socially inept to catch on to the fact) berdly is literally that kid who never got affection and now dosnet understand the concept of platonic love or genuine friendship until the end of chapter 2s pacifist route. Also he admit to not bring against dating frisk if it weren't for the fact he was into sussie at the time (which yes was also a massive misunderstanding do to him not understanding platonic kindness but he does respect Kris gender identity enough to use there pronouns and not be against being with them ) berdly is just an attention hog but he has the best of intentions when it comes to his friends
@@maverickdarkrath4780 He is not homophobic. Toby Fox supporst lgbt why he puts homophobic character? Yeah he can thnk Noelle has crush on him beacuse Noelle nice to him. But we know this sip is never beging cannon. And treathing Kris like that is not means he is transphobic/homophobic maybe this personall. Did you guys attack any "game" "character" for unrescpeting fallin love typeyes like death treath?
What if Ralsei was actually not supposed to be a part of the troupe, and just lied so he could be with the heroes on their journey because he's been alone for so long. He was just supposed to speak about the prophecy and send the heroes on their way, which is why he's kinda just left sorta in the background.
it makes sense since of how jarring "and a prince of the dark" is compared to the 2 other short lines instead of it being shorter like the other ones (ex: "a human a monster and a dark prince")
ralsei seemingly rewriting what is “supposed to happen” might also fit with his attitude towards spamton. the way he glosses over everything after the spamton neo fight may be because he forgot to make certain “adustments,” or just had not been prepared for spamton. woah thats a cool theory. that also could fit with the theory that ralsei has been trying to manipulate or talk to kris behind the scenes. ralsei may not just leeching himself into the story, but that hes still trying to manipulate more. holy shit evil ralsei au is looking more and more prominent…. like ralsei knows he is just meant to pass them along their journey. but instead he takes the story by the wheel and is trying to get rid of your choices. maybe he is the one pushing the story towards being linear & non-choice. he is paving the road for route he wants. imagine he really is the reason kris opened a dark world. although ralsei says closing the dark worlds will prevent the roaring, this version of ralsei could just be lying. what if the roaring is happens when enough fountains have been ripped open (and not based on if it still flows). ralsei could be like asgore, just waiting until he has enough ‘souls,’ like maybe the darkworlds are like souls to the titans (??????)? and ralsei could be getting angels heaven or whatever. holyshit epic end of the game goat angel 2.0 ?!?!? nah that is too far. but maybe opening a dark world is what gives the titans souls/power or wakes them up? idk this speculation may be a stretch ! thank you this helps support the evil ralsei au/theory/headcanon ive had for a bit. i wanna start an animatic on this and this is gonna give me even more ideas
But then again, the fact he can go to absolutely every other dark world could be because he is supposed to be part of the journey, and he is the only darkner who can be part of the journey.
@@orianefaton1885 i mean ralsei was special to begin with. he is the only one from the castle town darkworld. maybe he wasn’t lying about his “pure darkness fountain” giving him more abilities. he already had the special role of greeting susie & kris to explain the profecy
I do have to wonder if Toby put so much emphasis on these characters being different people that lived different lives because he actually does plan to address Toriel's motherly behavior in the next chapter because otherwise fans could be very up and arms given all the "I love you goat mom!" stuff you see in the Undertale fandom. Hell as far as we know Toriel may be the instigator as to why her and Asgore are broke up and Asgore didn't actually do anything awful this time to cause it. Like there's a lot to unpack there assuming your theory is correct.
Honestly, I entirely think the divorce is due to Toriel's feelings, not any event that Asgore was responsible for. The biggest tell for this is the difference between Undertale Asgore and Deltarune Asgore. In Undertale, Asgore asks Toriel if she still wants to be friends ONCE, and then drops the subject entirely. Toriel avoids him, and he can tell, and he doesn't insert himself into the things she does or the people she talks to, because he knows WHY she put up those boundries, and he feels guilty about how he made her feel. MEANWHILE, in deltarune, Asgore doesn't have that baseline of guilt, or understanding, and he keeps trying to win back Toriel's affection. He may be dense, but he cares about Toriel's feelings, he's genuinely just trying to relight the spark between them, and it's not working because Toriel just doesn't feel that way anymore. Trying to give their divorce some grand meaning or reason for the event sort of undermines the fact that sometimes people fall out of love, and it's a very mundane kind of tragedy. Neither of them are in the wrong, or in the right, but what happened still had a lot of negative consequences.
@@soupfan1 Well, duh? Of course he fucked up here too? It's Asgore, it's basically his main character trait, but my point is that in this universe, it didn't cause the crumbling of his marrige. In the news article, his surname is still listed as "Dreemurr", and we know that's Toriel's current surname in Deltarune, so it's safe to assume that when Asgore was removed from the force, him and Toriel were still together.
The question would be about whether or not this is really fair to blame him for that. Toriel maybe do also blame him, since Dess was friend with Asriel and Kris. Also, the divorce is visbly clearly bad for the kids (or at the very least, Kris). With how much she tries to distance herself from Asgore, something tells me that if she could, she would make it so Kris would not even have the right to see him, even though I think Asgore seem to be less toxic of a parent for them. (maybe because he is less overprotective and all ? I feel like Asgore would actually be a better emotional support to Kris that Toriel is, somehow)
When you look at Queen and Berdly's relationship as between the Queen of the Dark World and a random annoying kid, it's something like "haha she got his name wrong lmaooooooooooo." But when you look at it as between a mother and her son, it becomes much more disturbing and worrying.
11:01 I like how DR Toriel shares that in common with how UT Toriel treated Frisk. 17:10 I do think this is going to be addressed at some point. Kris living in Asriel's shadow has been hammered home pretty deliberately over these two chapters, and as I mentioned before, Toriel was addressed as a flawed character in Undertale, so I doubt that's something Toby would just drop given everything that's been set up.
@@afasdfasafd314 well she was in the undertale universe at least, what with the getting black out drunk at the Christmas party so much they had to lock her in a shed
The Queen isn't Lancer's actual mother When she claims "After All... I Am His Mother" The King responds "WHEN WAS THAT DECIDED?" She says "Arbitrarily Right Now"
@@personalover249 When King asked "WHEN WAS THAT DECIDED?" he was talking about her claiming to be Lancer's mom, and she clarifies that she became his mother now, King doesn't actually protest to her taking care of Lancer, he says "Do what you please with the boy."
Maybe Queen forgetting about Ralsei could be because he doesn't have parents. How else would a character representative of all mothers interact with someone that doesn't have a mother?
Honestly, that kind of makes sense, and also kinda makes things worse for the poor boi. Dude was literally born so he could serve a prophecy and nothing else. Plus, everything about the theory also fits with the idea of the dark fountain being Ralsei's parent.
Do Darkners even really have parents? I mean, there's Lancer and King, but that might just be a case of Lightner concepts mapping onto the Ace and King of Spades cards.
What if Ralsei's "mother" in this analogy is the Dark Fountain? It spawned Ralsei one day, leaving him alone with nothing but the knowledge of the prophecy, his "purpose" You can tell that is really messing him up. Ralsei has no identity beyond his role in the prophecy. He's only now starting to loosen up a little (mostly with Susie), but he still has no idea of what it means to be "Ralsei".
Queen represents the "Mother"board of a server modem. So, mother makes sense. Just like king is a king spades, lancer is a jack of spades, and Rouxxls Kaard is a Rules Card. One way or another, they are all cards.
Oh yeah there's this theory (I'm not sure if it's canonically implied??) that Queen's lightworld counterpart is a laptop in the computer lab. Technically a motherboard completes the laptop. So yeah she probably is a motherboard
One thing I could mention about the Toriel/Kris portion of this theory is that Toriel seems to only bring up video games and television around Kris, similar to how Queen only truly engages with Kris' hobbies through an arcade game. I could be misremembering, but a good portion of Toriel's dialogue is her asking Kris if they remember playing video games with Asriel, etc.
But I do think this is one of the stronger Deltarune theory videos out there. Too many don't feel cohesive, like they don't tie all the points together successfully or end up being kind of meaningless. But this one makes a lot of sense to the plot of Deltarune as well as it's heavy themes of escapism
Thank you for the compliments! And, yeah, I absolutely see what you mean when it comes to Toriel. Video games are one of Kris' hobbies, but they seem to have picked them up from Asriel, possibly explaining why it's the only one of "Kris'" interests that she takes note of. But, maybe I'm being a tad pessemistic on that front haha
Just gotta say, your read on Queen paralleling Toriel is REALLY unique! It casts some interesting (and potentially sad) light on Kris and Toriel, and I think there's a lot of validity to it. I really do hope we see some of those implications explored a bit more in the future because while it may look wholesome on the surface, there's definitely some shadier stuff that I think isn't even intentional on her part. Just as Queen wanted to act in Noelle's best interest, I think Toriel does for Kris, but she just can't really connect with them that well.
@@michaellammey2543 I must say almost every character in Deltarune has at least one mental problem, including the darkners (excludes Starwalker because not much is said about them)
I think Toriel vents out some of her problems uncontrollably to Kris when under alcohol. Similar to what acid-drunk Queen did in the alleyway. Nothing is done about it because this only started happening when Kris lives alone with Toriel. Queen's lines could be paralleling Toriel's feelings in a way. Toriel might actually be a bit similar to Noelle's mom. Queen: “I just cannot compute it. Why everyone is so... ungrateful.” ( I’m only doing what’s best for you controlling parent vibe) Queen: “Kris, you don’t do things like... have opinions.” (Again, the controlling vibe. Not as much evidence to support this but. Toriel could be restricting Kris from doing things he likes. Her dialogue about staying away from the chalk could be implying this. That she prefers Kris to go along with what she wants and thinks is best for them. And Kris doesn’t like putting up with it but feels he has to. However, she isn't as controlling as Noelle's mom.) Queen: "Don't worry that was my throwing glass it's safe." (Toriel could be going as far as to breaking things while drunk. Kris has to stop her, but sometimes fails. Then Toriel justifies it by saying something like, "Oh don't worry its ok, it's just glass anyway. Its my fault. I'll clean it up later. "
"Kris is miserable in Toriel's care, but she doesn't do anything about it." "She remarks how she's worried about them, but does nothing to actually help them heal." That... makes perfect sense. She did it in Undertale too. Not to Frisk though, to ASGORE. In his time of greatest need, as their children evaporated before their eyes, what did she do to help her husband? Nothing. She let him make the grand declaration that all humans to enter the Underground were to be killed, and instead of trying to reason with him or calm him down... She abandoned him. Ran off to the Ruins.
Wdym? Its the most logical sense to leave your emotionally distraught husband, planning to aquire the souls of human children that end up in the Underground. Why console him if he wants to murder. Its not like you can just talk it through and stay to try and make him feel better. :/
It's likely that she DID try to reason with Asgore, but not console him. It's not her job to put his feelings before her own, they were her children too, and she was grieving as well. Her coping mechanism was to get away from it all, Asgore's was to lash out. Both of them acted awful towards the other, in very different ways, and while I don't agree with what Toriel did, I can't on good faith say that Toriel should've stayed with Asgore if she didn't want to, or couldn't due to her own emotional state. If we want an examlple of Toriel being worried but not helping in Undertale, the best example is herself. She wasn't happy in the ruins, she wasn't happy letting human children be killed, she wasn't happy when isolated, yet she didn't do anything to help herself. It's a tragic cycle she keeps finding herself in, noticing problems with what's going on but doing nothing to fix them.
@@kookiautumn1710 In some respects, it was her job. She was the queen after all, and despite this being absolutely AWFUL for her own emotional state (one of the many, many problems of a monarchy), it IS her job to ensure the Regent (Asgore) is stable and in their right mind. Asgore was most certainly not, and continues not to be right into Undertale, which seems to have negative effects into the game. The political situation in the Underground is in turmoil, the only city is overcrowded to the point where several citizens live inside a portion of the main power station (Hotland has exhaust and cooling vents of the CORE all over, meaning those areas are a part of the CORE.) Obviously, as a person who's aware of, y'know, emotions, I 100% agree that Toriel shouldn't have stayed for her own emotional state, but due to the circumstances, her own emotional state was not the only thing at stake in her decision.
@@lozm4835 I agree, and you brought up good points, but I feel the need to add that, exactly because of the political situation, Toriel couldn't have done much. The monsters of the underground seemed to be almost unanimously on Asgore's side, and if talking Asgore out of his decision failed, should she really have put her own needs aside to try and comfort the man currently making her life even more hell than it needs to be? Yes, she was Queen, and her job was to Rule, not to Comfort The King. She couldn't rule, though, as the people were rallied against her and her morals. She felt her only choice was to leave. Whether that choice was a good one or not is a different discussion.
Honestly toriel seems to embody "the path to hell is paved with good intentions " she's thinks keeping asgore out of Kris life is good, she thinks keeping low expectations and basic lifestyle for Kris is a good thing and she is blissfully unaware of Kris school situation as alphys is to afraid of her to bring up how weird Kris has been acting recently. edit: also I just realized, the only adult figure Kris trust the information about the dark world with is undyne , were never given the option to tell anyone other authority figure, or toriel, Kris seems to only trust undyne...someone who very likely was very close to there father when he was still the police chief.
I think what he means by "pure" darkness is that all the other fountains are "tainted" by the Will of their creator, so unlike with other Worlds Darkners don't have to worry about not belonging because Will isn't even a part of the equation
Another tiny thing about Ralsei that may be inconsequential and completely stupid for me to point out, but the fireworks that are shown after defeating Sweet Cap'N Cakes have Kris' and Susie's faces drawn perfectly, but Ralsei's almost looks scribbled and hastily finished, possibly more evidence to back that Ralsei clings to the Lightners for attention.
Interesting theory, love the style of presentation you use. Queen being a prevalent allegory of Kris’ relationship with their mother fits well into the narrative too - as it seems Toriel will play a significant role in chapter 3 considering she’ll probably end up in the dark world. Having Queen be this figure which we can use to see the exaggerations of Kris and Toriel’s relationship be placed *directly* before the chapter which puts these two together seems really intentional. Since the trend seems to be that any lightner who enters the dark world receives character development, I’m expecting something major to change in Toriel when it comes to Kris. For Ralsei, I’m surprised you didn’t mention the events in Castle Town after the snowgrave route (or was it minimum recruit? I can’t remember off the top of my head). While I can see I being cut for not much substance, I still see some interesting things we can pull from it. The fact that Queen only mentions Ralsei by name when she talks about what he’s doing for her in castle town could either imply that Ralsei only receives attention or “acknowledgement” when he is “upfront” instead of just sinking into being lumped with the lightners, or it could simply mean that only though extreme external factors (in the case of Queen: literally having zero of her subjects around anymore… ignoring trashy) will Ralsei ever be acknowledged in full, maybe implying that Ralsei’s parents will experience a significant event separate from Ralsei which forces them to acknowledge him and return? Idk typing this out made me realize that there actually isn’t much to pull from this, but if anything I think it gives more substance to the notion that Ralsei can be included into this theory.
I think that, combined with the things shown in the video, the fact that Susie is constantly ravenous and constantly eats things that aren't food (even when she thinks nobody is watching, so it's not a cry for attention) points to her actually being homeless. Perhaps even a runaway. The fact that she has huge respect for the magically refilling bowl of milk in some random alley to me really underscores her living hand to mouth. Also, god damn, that reading of Ralsei's character. Didn't expect that to hit so hard. Felt that on a spiritual level.
Yeah! I like Asgore, probably more in Deltarune then in Undertale since we actually interact with him a lot more and see his personality. Also because I feel like defending him in the scene at the store. I just want to hug the poor guy.
Personal theory, Darkners might not have parents at all? They’re the inhabitants of Dark Worlds, made from inanimate objects/concepts. Sure, we know these Dark Worlds have long histories (like Spamton being huge in 1997, and Queen apparently being around at the time), but I kinda figured that since the Dark Worlds are fantasy worlds, their histories and whatnot were created retroactively upon the opening of their fountain. Sort of like how the brain can fill in gaps between memories, fusing unrelated ones together and even creating false ones to make sense of what it does remember. This would explain quite a few existing questions about the Dark Worlds, like Ralsei’s absent parents or Lancer’s lack of a mom. I personally don’t think King is literally Lancer’s biological dad, but was assigned the role of father as the King to his Jack. His mom’s absence can therefore be explained by the deck being incomplete (as decks of cards in schools tend to be), meaning there was no Queen of Spades to make his mom. And Ralsei’s backstory of being alone his whole life makes sense when we consider that he’s the only Darkner in that closet. So yeah, that’s my theory, kinda rough around the edges. I’m open to questions or pointing out issues with it.
well if ralsei is kris’s old horn headband, then that means his mother is kris /j i mean TECHNICALLY kris probably eventually threw out the headband, forgetting about it. TECHNICALLY this is similar to ralsei dealing with parental absence. oh my god oh that makes the ralsei kris ship really weird wtf
I think that all darkworlds are powered by the Prime Dark Fauntain, which is located in the closet and protected by ralsei. This Fountain powers all darkworlds, which is why chapter 1's and chapter 2's darkworlds have characters like jevil and spamtom who talk like they've been there for ages, because they have. Then, the fountains people with determination Open are more gateways, small amounts of darkness that make it a possibility to travel between worlds. But the ones opened by the "Knight" are the Primes, the one's like what Ralsei guards, and that's when the main issue starts.
If so, that could be why Ralsei is a boss monster and that his name is an anagram of Asriel. Kris has always been in his shadow, to the point that for some they are just "Asriel's sibling". Ralsei is maybe supposed to represent just that. Kris trying to be like the outside behavior Asriel displayed at the same age. (Like, with how Toriel is clearly making Asriel the golden child, maybe Kris subconsciously tried to be "more like Asriel") which would even explain why the name is an anagram even better. They stopped being Kris when they were wearing it. They were trying to be Asriel 2.0.
@@orianefaton1885 omg wait i love that interpretation. maybe its also why ralsei acts “very good.” kris grew up in asriels shadow, and maybe they also wished they could be the perfect dreamurr to be accepted more(???
So what you're saying is that to properly roleplay Queen, you just need to act like an exaggerated version of the mom of whoever she's interacting with? Damn, I'd honestly love if people adhered to that instead of making her the "lol random" character and yelling potassium at everything
6:22 there's another small detail that could go against this When you inspect the angel doll in chapter 2, you get a little interaction with Rudy and Susie, it goes like this: S:... so why do you collect creppy dolls? N:Hey, Noelle and her sister did that. Respect it! (I'm not sure if this is an oversight, but in the next dialogue box Susie's portrait goes to serious while sweating to just serious) S: (Noelle's sister...) If you try to interact with it again, Susie will simply say "(...)" with the sweating portrait This seems to imply that Susie is aware of Dess's dissapearence, or even that she knew her, which means she has lived in Hometown since at least shortly before Dess disappeared, or she heard the story from someone, which considering she almost never spoke with anyone before Ch1, I highly doubt Actually I might upload a recording of this interaction, because I swear I have barely seen anyone talk about it.
I know the interaction you mean, and I don't think it implies that at all. A missing persons case is much more easy to hear about than one of your neighbors' older siblings or parents or whatever. Susie probably heard *something* about Noelle's sister, and someone named "holiday" being missing, but only in that moment put two and two together, yknow?
This has got to be one of, if not, my favourite Deltarune theory. The idea of Queen being the reflection of the characters' parents just makes perfect sense considering Queen is a random mess of personality throughout the game. The theory also holds strong evidences and connections which is a good thumbs up.
"I do NOT like berdly" That's so sad he's the bestest boy... And if it's true that his mother emotionally neglects and abuses him then that makes his entire story even sadder. i hope in future chapters he gets even more character development and finds a family in the fun gang.
holy shit. this is actually one of the most well thought out theories i've heard!! it was a headcanon of mine that each chapter is going to be representative of a different character's homelife-- chapter 1 was susie, with a father who does not care about the well-being of his kid, only his own benefit. chapter 2 was, as you said, a representation of noelle's mother, overbearing, overprotective, and controlling. THIS theory has a lot more going for it, though. it explains the character traits of, like, all of the main cast. it put's kris's actions at night into perspective, it puts ralsei's random identity crisis into perspective, it puts berdly's.... well, berdlyness into perspective. thank you for such an interesting and insightful video!!
I'd like to point out king did care about Lancer, he still calls him a bouncy pumpkin and was bluffing about dropping him, but he's so obsessed with whatever the knight told him, that he's neglecting his child and becoming a worse person...its not until he's in a cell and Kris recruits everyone that he lets his guard down long enough to show his good side. Sussie father is probably an extreme workaholic and lashes out if sussie gets in the way, (but he's probably all bark no bite similar to kings bluff) he believes what hes doing is whats best providing everything she needs not realizing what shes doing in her out side life , similar to king being unaware ogñf lancers friendship with sussie instead of killing the lightners , sussie is a slaker and tuff girl instead of a grade a student....I'm just making a lot of assumptions but its interesting to think about
@@annaalexandra8715 I've theorized that the next Chapter boss, the Queen/Spade King, will either be themed around Kris's relationship with Toriel (a crazy overbearing micromanager-type) or around Kris's relationship with Asriel (The Perfect Golden Boy who always overshadowed them). But Kris's homelife has to be the focus.
I don't think Muffet *can* be in Deltarune. Unless I'm mistaken, she's in Undertale because of a kickstarter perk allowing someone to submit their own character to make an appearance. Same story for SoSorry
Now it's making me think chapter 3 will focus on Kris and Toriel's relationship and maybe we get to see someone else notice that we are in control over Kris.
Susie is probably been in the town as long as the others since when Susie goes into Noelle's room, Susie says that she never picked on Noelle because Noelle gave her a pencil a long time ago Im not sure if that's correct since im basing this off memory.
susie never specified how long ago noelle gave her the pencil. personally i think this tidbit adds to the "susie moved in recently" theory: noelle giving her the pencil was susie's first ever interaction with her, and this kindness contrasted against the way everyone else treats her really stuck out in her brain we'll have to see what the canon says about all this, for now its just speculation
Like meowchela said, I don't think Susie stated exactly how long ago Noelle gave her the pencil. I think, if I remember correctly, Susie said that Noelle gave her the candy cane pencil on her *first day of school* , not specifying a date. It can also add up to the ' Susie moved here recently ' thing due to the fact that she very clearly remembers everything that happened in that moment. Like that Noelle even gave her that pencil, the pencil being specifically candy cane and she even remembered it's taste. (This could just be normal and that my short-term memory is in play right now but still.)
Toriel always talking about how great asriel is is pretty much the classic “being compared to other family members” but this time even more worse since its being done unintentionally making the person not realize its hurting the them and since they dont realize it, they continue to unintentionally compare
I imagine Ralsei's relationship with would imply that his parents might imply that he simply doesn't have parents, she doesn't interact with him in any way throughout the story, and she seems to flat out forget he exists if they aren't in the same room, so I'm thinking his parents either abandoned him when he was very young, are dead, or possibly never existed in the first place
a reason i think that susie also knows who toriel is (etleast enough to know shes kris's mum) is because of a line from berdly in chapter one which u can find by asking him to let you be in his group project and in his response he canonically confirms that toriel was kris's partner for one of their group projects in the past i know its a small detail but i have a feeling that might be why susie knows toriel is kris's mother. Edit:i also feel that i should mention that when berdly is bringing up toriel and kris's class project some time back but he brings it up in a mocking way not like a 4 or 5 year old getting help from their parent on presenting a project but like a teenager being forced to pick their own mother for a class project because they had no friends so lets say susie moved in recently(say 2-3 months) it would make sense for susie to know who toriel is as a teacher and as kris's mother (in summary susie could know who toriel is regardless of how recently she moved in because according to berdly she helped kris out on their class project in the recent past)
That's an interesting observation! While it's plausible, it could also feed further into the "Susie recently moved in" theory, because without her the class, Kris has no-one to be partners with. I genuinely completely missed that line from Berdley though, jeez...
@@maverickdarkrath4780 I actually think Monster Kid is just nice to Kris, since he's also kind to Frisk even though he's never seen them before in Undertale. Of course, their 2 seperate games and Toby Fox keeps hamering on how these are diffrent characters, but I think Monster Kid is actually one of the nicer kids in class
Thank you for pointing out some of Ralsei’s complexities as a character here. He’s just as complicated as the rest of the cast is, even if we haven’t gotten that many hints about his character unlike the rest, and it’s a shame that a lot of people in the Deltarune fanbase will just flat out ignore the evidence that he has genuine struggles in favor of a “Ralsei is Evil” or “Ralsei is Asriel” narrative.
This was a great breakdown of things. In truth I never read into Queen this in depth, but I can agree with all the points you made. I appreciate that Deltarune has more room to explore the interactions/relationships between its characters, and videos like this help expound on that in all the best ways. Until now, I was confused and uncertain about the actions of Kris with the fountains, but it makes a lot of sense if they are trying to find some sort of escape and find their own ways of exploring their interests if Toriel doesn't really allow that at home. Keep up the fantastic work!
Thank you for the nice comment! It took me a long time to understand Queenie too, and I think part of the reason why is that she's explicitly written to be meme-y and generic, so it's hard to actually read into her as a person. So, instead, I took to reading into her role in the story, and instead of finding concrete things about Queenie I discovered a lot of mommy issues the lightners seem to have... I think Toriel isn't explicitly banning or discouraging Kris' hobbies at home (other than occult, maybe, bc she's religious and all...), she just values the things Asriel is good at more than the things Kris is good at, and it implicitly discouraged Kris from persuing their interests the way Asriel did. In their dark world bedroom, we see the shelves are full of trophies, which I think implies that Kris wants to be as successful as Asriel but wasn't, either because they couldn't (not good at the same things as Asriel) or didn't know how (wasn't as encouriged to persue things they ARE good at). When I say "Toriel facilitated them living in his shadow", I mean that she puts emphasis on Asriel more than she ever did on Kris. It's even implied that Kris is wearing Asriel's old clothes, and that they don't have much or any of their own (again, based on the dark world room, where the closet is full of all kinds of clothes and Kris can "wear whatever [they] want", contracted against what they usually wear, a green and yellow striped shirt, basically Asriel's trademark.)
@@kookiautumn1710 Thats fair. I think regarding Queen being "memey", I almost thing that was intentional. After chapter 1 and the reaction to Lancer, I would think Toby would put someone in for the community to explicitly meme on, hiding real meaning behind a supposed "joke" character. That being said, I'm now wondering if there is any deeper meaning to Lancer's relationship with the main characters; IE: Their interest in friendship, but the more I think about it, I feel like that only really applies to Susie and has probably already been explored ad nauseum.
@@huntarbates2814 I think Lancer's role, above all else, is to be the emotional core of the conflict. Both him and his father represent two sides of the same "all darkners" coin, where Spade King represents the negative, resentful, and tortured side of darkners, Lancer represents the friendly, loving, and fun side. That's just my take, though, and seeing as we might not be seeing as much of Lancer in later chapters, who knows if that idea will be proven or disproven.
I haven't seen anyone mention this, but on top of everything you said Kris is ADOPTED. I don't think I need to explain why this would make Kris feel distanced from Toriel and the rest of his family.
I think Susie might genuinely get along better with Toriel than Kris does, which is interesting in the case of Susie but /awful/ in the case of Kris. I'd be worried about it driving a wedge between them if Susie wasn't the person Kris seems to like most.
wait fuck I think I overthought this but suddenly I have a lot more I want to add OKAY SO LIKE, I think the thing about people having a hard time getting past Goat Mom's External Goat Mom Aura and not seeing her flaws is honestly- I feel like there's a lot of people out there who don't have very good relationships with their moms or aren't able to spend time with their mom as much as they used to (for both tragic and nontragic reasons) and honestly even given just the surface level care Toriel seems to present towards people is enough to sort of just make them go 'my comfort character now' and thus they aren't able to really evaluate her all that objectively. Which, for the record, is totally fine, she's a fictional character. But it's weird to me that Susie hits it off with her so /fast/. Susie has a lot of 'I tried to interact with someone once and it went bad and now they hate me' incidents if you read into the text enough and normally she's pretty guarded around people she doesn't know all that well? I mean there's definitely a level of respect between her and toriel, and that can be based on past incident, but then they become buddy buddy SUPER fast. And maybe some of that is just Susie's Natural Charisma but- but maybe...? I think there's a lot more you can read into Susie's relationship with her mom with how she interacts with Toriel than how she interacts with queen, to be honest. It's still a tricky position for Kris either way, though- like, Toriel definitely cares about them a lot and wants to help, she keeps checking up on them with Alphys, but she can't quite get past that "It's fine. He's Normal." phase on her own? ...Additionally, I kind of wonder if she's picked up on the fact they've been Acting Strange, as Noelle puts it, or if she would think that it was an improvement over their normal state? I don't think Kris would react well to having their mom imply "Oh you've improved so much ever since a soul started controlling your actions!" even if there was no way for her to know that was the case.
Another thing I noticed with kris: During the scene with queen and kris alone in the alleyway queen asks to “play that game again, just the two of us” now at first that moment didn’t really make sense considering queen should know that kris can’t play said game alone. However in that context it could be that playing the game again is a metaphor for kris and toriel now by their lonesome in the house. Kris now being forced to play despite not being able to
They were definitely "functioning" better as a family. In this case, Kris would be right beside Asriel as they all did some fun activity again. As though Kris is dependent on Asriel in order to actually function with their family. And now with Asriel off at college, those same "family activities" wouldn't be the same. But Toriel is either oblivious to this, or choosing not to acknowledge it. Just like how Queen is either oblivious or ignorant of the fact that Kris *literally* can't enjoy the activity they did earlier without someone to depend on. Gahhh!!! So many parallels... (Sidenote: Now that I'm thinking about it, I kinda just rephrased your comment...)
I'm so happy someone finally mentioned Toriel! While I do like her it's always rubbed me the wrong way watching her interactions with Kris. I agree, I don't think she is a bad mother but it is alarming to see how little she actually tries to help him. Kris and Asriel's room is a great way to physically see Kris' place in the family, it's so barren and it makes me feel sad that Kris may not even know what he wants to decorate the room with. Wouldn't a good parent try to help the kid decorate the room the way the kid would want to? Toriel doesn't seem worried/bothered by the fact that Kris has nothing personal in there. While Asriel was still around he played with Kris using his stuff, Kris may not touch the stuff in their room because they don't feel like they're allowed to, because it's not theirs. Growing up I was in a very similar situation to Kris so I relate with them very deeply. I was over shadowed by my older sister who I had to share a room with and (while I do see this as more of my sister being a jerk) I wasn't allowed to put up posters or put up a lot of my own personal touches. In fact if I did my sister would take it down and our mom wouldn't do anything about it. I never felt good enough for my family so I never felt the need to try to be. I didn't study to get good grades, I did play an instrument but I never tried at it or practiced besides any of the basic stuff. Perhaps Kris feels the same way I did? Kris's situation isn't helped by the fact that we can tell the Kris relied heavily on Asriel. They went to their brother for the emotional comfort they couldn't get anywhere else and now that Asriel is gone, Kris probably doesn't understand what they can do for themselves. Kris probably feels betrayed by Asriel going off to live his own life, they don't feel they can turn to Toriel because she was never there emotionally for them before, and Toriel has separated Kris from Asgore so even if they could go to him for support Kris may feel they're not allowed to go to him. Thank you for this video, I really feel like I may have come to understand these characters better. Also, while I can't say if this is true or not, I read a Deltarune comic called Paper Trail and in it the artist shows what they think Susie's home life could be like. It shows Susie living with just her elderly grandmother who doesn't have the means to care for Susie, even to the point of scolding her when Susie says she's hungry. I thought it was an interesting direction to go in.
This is a really good and in-depth comment! I appreciate that you shared your personal anecdotes to back up what you were saying, and I hope your family situation is better than back then. I completely agree with your ideas of how Kris feels. I think they tend to either go cold or lash out and have no in-between when it comes to responding to situations, and the events in chapter 1 forced them to change that, to find a new way to deal with people, and chapter 2 made them confront one facet of their current issues. I can't wait for future chapters, and the development Kris will go through! I've heard of paper trail too, but it's not a comic I kept up with, sadly. That IS an interesting idea about Susie's home life, though
@@kookiautumn1710 Paper trail had concluded, and unfortunately the artist ended with a cliff hanger but would be very poetic if they didn't make a sequel. I hope they do. My home life has definitely gotten better thank you for asking. I can completely relate to the lashing out as a response to negative stimuli and I am excited to see where Toby Fox takes the chapters. Another thing I have in common with Kris was that because of my upbringing, I didn't really have a personality. I was just kinda there, unlike Kris I didn't get along with my sister so when she did leave for college I began to grow as a person. Unfortunately because I had no guidance from my parents and no role models (kinda like Kris) it wasn't in a good direction. It wasn't until I met my boyfriend (who is now my husband) that I didn't grow as a person. He thankfully help me grow in a positive direction, and I hope someone comes along to help Kris in the way I got help.
I think this is also a bit bad that Asriel and Kris were still sharing the same room. Sure, it could mean they are close as siblings, or could be because of the lack of rooms, but that also meant, no privacy for either of them. And no matter how close you are, I think they are stuff you want to just keep to yourself. Time where you just want to be alone. And if you share your room, then you can't be alone there. Because you never know when that person is going to come into your room. Plus, Kris is in high school and Asriel is in college, they clearly are at the age where someone needs privacy a lot. Teenagers tends to be the one with identity crisis and need for self-reflection (or escaping reality which can be seen as Kris's little adventure in the dark world)
I wonder if Queen forgetting Ralsei is a metaphor for his parents actually forgetting him, or them being dead, so they're actually unable to be with or talk to him.
The entire section with Kris and Toriel really solidifies my theory that Toriel might get some sort of "negative development" in chapter 3, not in a way of her becoming abusive or shit like that, but she will completely miss the "moral lesson" of the story and become even *more* clingy simply because she doesn't want to accept that the world around her is changing and her child is *growing*. During the anniversary stream, Toby made sure to tell us that Toriel loves Kris, their entire family does, that even if we might be worried that their side of the room is empty, their family genuinely loves them. I'm sure we will get some comforting moments showing that Kris will still need their mother's protection sometimes, but it will become too much and she simply won't understand *why*. In Undertale, Toriel puts her loneliness and fears aside because she knows keeping Frisk trapped will only hurt them in the long run. She might end doing the exact opposite in Deltarune.
(I apologize for the INCREDIBLY long comment, but I had this whole train of thought in my head and just had to get it down in writing before I lost my whole understanding of everything) It’s interesting to note how Toriel both succeeds and fails as a mother, and how it ties into what seems to arguably be the main theme of Deltarune at this point. It should be a mother’s job to ensure their child’s happiness, but from a much more narrow viewpoint it’s their one biggest job above all else to ensure their child’s safety. After all, self-preservation is humankind's (and I assume monsterkind's) most primal urge, and for parents that urge extends to their offspring. As far as performing this specific job goes, Toriel is S-Tier, 10/10. She has exactly the instincts that a mother would need to protect her children, as shown by the measures she takes with Kris and Susie when her tires were slashed (having Susie stay over so she wouldn’t go outside with a potentially dangerous individual lurking about, having them all sleep in the same room, and staying awake herself after Kris and Susie are asleep until she knows they’re safe). This is definitely one of the biggest reasons why goat mom is commonly regarded as best mom. But… being safe doesn’t necessarily equate to being happy. And this ties in really well to the theme about a lack of choice in Deltarune, and more specifically to the dilemma of safety vs freedom. This dilemma is something I’ve thought about with regards to real life and how things shift as one goes from living under their parents’ roof as a child (safety) to living on their own as an adult (freedom), and how important a balance of these two things in life is. The dark world represents freedom, and all the lightners seem to enjoy being there because of it, since their lives in the light world involve safety at the expense of their freedom. But this begs the question: if you’re not willing to sacrifice your happiness for safety, then what are you willing to sacrifice for freedom? Like I said, a balance of these things is important, and it seems that the lightners edge close to the line of leaning too far towards freedom as a result of overcorrecting for usually leaning too far the other way. After all, they sacrifice safety as a result of getting in battles all the time. This is particularly true for Kris, who deals with being controlled by the player and, if this theory is correct, also being restricted by Toriel. As a result, they are the one who ultimately goes a step further than everyone else and creates a dark fountain despite being previously warned about doing so. They may be frustrated with their lack of freedom, but is it really worth potentially sacrificing the safety of the world? This can also apply to the player themself if they do the Snowgrave Route. They might just be doing it to see what happens, but they could also be doing it as a way to rebel against the game’s railroading nature and have more of a choice in what happens. Is having more agency in how things play out REALLY worth digging a path to an ending worse than the one the game’s been guiding you toward? I’ve been mostly talking about the safety vs freedom theme since this video made me think about it more than I’ve ever done. But going back to the original topic at hand I guess I’ll say that Toriel ultimately leans too far towards safety. While her protective instincts are admirable, being a mother is more than just that, and showing both the good and bad side of things with her parenting while also having it tie into the arguably main theme of Deltarune is honestly just really impressive writing. I really hope your theory with Toriel ends up holding up, though even if it doesn’t, I’m glad the safety/freedom dilemma is still demonstrated through Kris rebelling against the player’s control at the very least. Just wanted to leave this monstrously long comment since this video made me think about things in Deltarune more than I’ve done in a while, and I always hate keeping deep trains of thought like this bottled up in my head. Thanks for the video!
Thank you for the long comment! I honestly enjoy reading things like this, and I'm glad my video inspired you to think! The safety vs freedom dillemma is something that is, arguably, tied to all the Dreemurrs, not just Kris. With Susie and Noelle, it's harder to pin down the theme (what with Susie already being somewhat free in Hometown, and Nolle's "dillemma" focusing on an extreme amount of control in her life), but with Kris, it seems like they've FOUND a balance with both safety and freedom (going to school and living a safe life by day and going on dark world adventures with friends by eve, that their mom doesn't know about but lets them do), but still aren't happy, and open a fountain. In undertale, we see a similar thing happen with both Toriel and Asgore. Toriel seems to have chosen safety over freedom, by locking herself in the ruins and trying to prevent humans from leaving, but is ACTUALLY the most free character that we know. She has the authority and autonimy of a Queen and the life of a normal citizen, she has no duties to attend to other than what she decides to do herself, and she has no people who depend on her, and she's miserable. On the other extreme, we have Asgore, who seems to have chosen freedom above safety, vowing to kill every human that falls into the underground, but he's actually the least free character in the game. Not only does he seem to be locked to an even smaller location than Toriel is during any playthrough of undertale (we only ever see him in the throne room, even if we're told he often takes walks around the underground), but he's also brought the underground to a safe and uneventful stasis. Overpopulation, lack of sunlight, etc, are all issues that monster kind is facing but never solved, and none of these issues particularly effect safety, they just effect happiness. And, as the several neutral endings where Asgore commits suicide show us, Asgore is equally as miserable as Toriel is. (I'd argue Chara fits here as well, with them losing their life trying to free the underground, and failing. Theirs would be a failure on both ends, losing safety AND freedom in one fell swoop, which is also what caused their parents to lose those things as well) And most importantly, we have Flowey. He chooses freedom above all else, as many times as we can see, and it's literal. When he took Chara's body to the surface, he CHOSE not to fight back against the humans, despite Chara trying to fight them. As a reborn flower, he CHOSE not to tell anyone who he was as early as his very first reset. Even with the player around, he can go anywhere, do anything, and in the end, the only way to bring closure to his character, the only way to help Asriel, is to show him how to once again CHOOSE to be good, to break the barrier and help everyone, even with limitless freedom where he could've done anything. It seems like Kris, like their older brother, is trying to have as much freedom as possible, at any cost. It would especially be interesting if this want is explored and contrasted against Toriel's need for safety, and possibly even Asgore's absence of both freedom AND safety in deltarune.
An added wrinkle to the robot face discussion, if the face is what Mrs. Holiday/Queen wants Noelle to be, it's interesting that she doesn't recognize her while she's wearing the disguise. It shows that Noelle (or perhaps Mrs Holiday) recognizes on some level that if Noelle were to become her ideal, that she would cease to be Noelle. Also thank you for making me question if I have mommy issues. Good times.
Welp, after watching this video now I feel bad for the Noelle, Susie, and Kris even more. Especially Berdly and Ralsei, how they're relationship with Queen reflects with they're mom is messed up.
I choose to interpret queen forgetting ralsei’s there as him not having parents at all, not having extremely neglectful ones. Both make some sense though
17:27 "The narrative doesn't seem to frame Toriel as at fault in any way.." Well, to be honest... The way she treats Asgore is, for me, a clear way to show her as at fault. Seeing Toriel and Asgore's interactions, I can't help but firmly pick Asgore's side. Torile just seems very mean to him, especially not letting him really interact with his own children. And they were genuenly happy together before their divorce. Just seeing her treat Asgore, that is kind at heart, guilty about the things he did, and longing to AT LEAST be friends with Toriel, and with the fact that Asgore seems to be LITERALLY the Santa Clause of the Underground, giving happiness to children... it just irks me the wrong way. Both in this game and in Undertale, where she didn't even want to be Asgore's friend, I didn't like Toriel very much in those moments And heck, looking at some of the Neutral/Pacifist run dialogue he is literally willing to DIE as a King of Monsters, JUST to let a random kid go back home. I've always wanted to give Goat Dad a hug way more than Goat Mom.
I agree! But you have to understand, that's not the narrative framing Toriel in a bad light, it's your own bias. Objectively, Asgore is the butt of the joke in the supermarket scene, and Toriel is just trying to leave. To us, that reads as Toriel being mean to Asgore, to someone else though, that may read as Asgore being invasive in some way (which IS an interpretatiom people have had of that scene, somehow.) Same goes for Undertale, Toriel doesn't have the players perspective, therefore she doesn't know just how self-sacraficial he was in what he did, all she saw was her children never returning, and I can't blame her for being pissed about that lmao (especially seeing as, in the Winter Clock Dialogue, by the end, the two of them seem to get along, at least on a surface level.) Toriel is never framed as doing the wrong thing (for an example, look at the contrast between Susie's agressiom towards Kris at the beginning of chapter 1 vs her agression towards the monster kids outside of the bunker in chapter 2. The first is framed as bad, and scary, the second is framed as just, and even somewhat sweet), even when it seems like Kris is visibly uncomfortable with what she's doing (holding their hand while they walk to school, hugging them in the hall while they're in a rush), those moments are framed as positive, even though they're hurting Kris. It's why I don't have my hopes up for chapter 3. Chapter 2 already sort of left me disappointed in different ways, but because of Toby's track record with Toriel and Asgore's characters and developments, I'm genuinely afraid there will be no proper development of them in Deltarune, either.
@@kookiautumn1710 Well, I at least have my hopes up. I mean, in Undertale, Toriel and Asgore are just some monsters that Frisk met. Yes, they acted parent-like to Frisk, but at the end of the day there is no connection. It didn't entirely make sense for their development to be that deep in Undertale. But here, both of them are literally the main character's parents, whom they grew up with. And since it seems that Toriel will be a big part of Chapter 3, it makes sense that NOW is a good time to develop them.
@@leritykay8911 Fair enough! And, I hope you're right about Deltarune. My point with Undertale is that all the other major characters GOT developed. Papyrus learned to appreciate himself without the recognition of the public, Undyne learned to talk through her issues and find common ground with her enemies, and Alphys learned that truth was important, and bending it for the sake of your own feelings is bad. Toriel and Asgore got no such thing. It SEEMS like Toriel learns to let go at first, but then in every single ending where she's alive, she goes out looking for Frisk. Asgore SEEMS to have a change of heart in your battle with him, but as the pacifist ending is a reset of a previously neutral timeline, his character development also isn't there. It's just kind of a bummer in my opinion, even though it makes sense, lore-wise.
@@kookiautumn1710 I think of it like this, even if it is a bit of a cruel thought: Toriel and Asgore are boss monsters, and as such they live for a LOONG time. So that already could mean that their development is just... Slower. They have lived through so much already. For characters like Papyrus, Alphys, Undyne or Metatton, they didn't have the same experience with the previous humans that fell. But Toriel has already seen 6 other kids fall down, go through the ruins, and leave her behind. Why would this one be any different? Until the very end of True Pacifist, Frisk is no different than the other kids to Toriel. Why would she majorly change after their meeting?
@@leritykay8911 That's exactly what I mean, from a lore perspective, it makes sense. But from a story perspective, it's kind if disappointing that two out of 6 of the main characters got less development than a miniboss (muffet, who started off as hating you over a lie she heard about you, then found out the truth, and even helped stop the fight between you and Asgore at the end of true pacifist)
would love to see a theory about the shadow crystals being a evil mirror of the deltarune universe, seems like a cool concept witht he fact that greed overtook the best of spamton resulting in the downfall of his entire life and with jevil, maybe just wanted to feel like he actually belonged since court jesters were just made to be fools most of the time and ended up with the knowledge of his world being a fake. would be fun to dig into since we have berdley, who let fame and love take the best of him and turned him against his friends, and susie who seems like she doesn't feel like she belongs here.
Wait, excluding Kris, there are seven kids in his class that are unique to DR too, no ? If so, maybe each hidden boss could corespond to issue that one of the classmate have ? (As for Kris, either does they maybe have a piece in the Castle town, or their will be what you face after getting all of the other shards ??)
For the Kris and Toriel part, she really treats them as a child when they're clearly a teen and would need to be recognised as this. There's her behaviour that shows it but I came to the realisation that there's also an important visual clue of this: they're still wearing a striped shirt while everyone else in the class let go of the strips. They're all not children anymore. But Kris is still wearing child's clothes.
Not JUST children's clothing, but what is heavily implied to have been Asriel's clothes. As their Dark World room has a wardrobe full of "all kinds of clothes", followed by "You could wear whatever you want", leads me to believe Kris might not have any clothes of their own, either due to no proper clothes being made for humans, or Toriel not seeing a reason to buy new clothes when Asriel's old ones are right there and fit Kris well enough.
@@kookiautumn1710 oh! I didn't think of that! But it fits very well Toriel's logic and could explain why Kris appearance in the Dark World is so different. Every Lightners we've seen in the Dark World so far seems to wear things that fits their personality and preferences, notably with the colors. So maybe Asriel colors are more like green and yellow while Kris would prefer blue and pink!
@@jimekas on that topic....maybe im just reading to deep into this and im completely insane but considering pink and blue are there colors which were commonly associated with male and female added to the fact Kris's normal clothing seem rather neutral ....I wonder if Kris wants to wear clothing that is usually associated with boys and girls like skirts or tank tops (not saying these clothing are gender exclusive anyone can wear whatever they want, there just commonly associated as boy or girl stuff, not trying to offend anyone just trying to make a crack theory but back to the point) they want to wear more expressive clothes, this is supposed by Kris finding interest in the dress the Addisons are selling and of course the closet with multiple clothing, currently Kris seems to go with they/them pronouns meaning there likely non binary or a similar identity, its likely they want to express themselves more but are stuck with the bland green shirts and black pants , which is why there dark worlds clothes are so colorful in contrast.....maybe im reading to deep into things and im just crazy ....but it something it think about i guess
@@maverickdarkrath4780 well this is a rather interesting possibility, I mean if all Kris ever had to wear was Asriel clothes (not saying it's the case, just a possibility) it's highly possible they'd like to try different type of clothes to express themselves and/or see what they would prefer. Also, I mostly talked about the colors of their Dark outfits but the kind of clothes they're all wearing is I think not to take lightly. There must be a reason why Kris is wearing a knight armor in the Dark World. I mean, I can pretty well guess the reason behind Susie, Noelle and Bredly's outfits but why a knight for Kris? It's something to discuss I think
I love that you brought to light Toriel's many flaws that most players of Undertale and Deltarune ignored. Plus you explained really well the reasons why what we know of Kris' behavior before we took control of them isn't just Kris being a trouble kid for no reason. It's weird how the player, who just got into the picture, knows more about Kris' interests than their own mom. Toriel's favoritism for Asriel compared to Kris is evident from the start of the game, but Toriel probably just brushes off anything because in her eyes "they're both her children, she loves them the same" a mother's favorite phrase and often not totally true. She tries to treat Kris like there's no differences betwen them when there is many that Kris is aware of day by day; one being that Kris is the only human in town. Kris is clearly trying to both stay quiet about their interest and trying to get her attention, tho often in a negative way. That's probably Kris' whole theme, trying to get her attention in any way, because they already tried fitting in (an example being that Kris used to wear fake horns just to be like their family) and it didn't work, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THE SAME and Toriel doesn't embrace Kris' identity, in fact she tries to hide it. (i.e: Kris' wardrobe in the Dark World when interacted says "you can wear whatever you want", which should be obvious since most people dress however their want, but somehow it seems to be worth of remarking, as if Kris didn't dress however they like, instead probably how Asriel used to dress. ANOTHER EXAMPLE: The can of "Ice-E's Cool Boys Body Spray, Spray for the Boys, Flamin Hot Pizza Flavor" spray in the bathroom that no one uses but it's there probably not for Asriel but for Kris, knowing they don't identify as a boy, she still tries to impose her own thoughts on Kris. She at least respects Kris pronouns but she very clearly tries to erase Kris' sense of identity. Which is also shown by their room in Ralsei's Castle being just Asriel's side of the room flipped to be on Kris' side. Unlike Susie's room who very clearly reflects her personality, Kris' is just what they've been convinced they should be like: more like Asriel.) Kris has internalized this very deeply so naturally their instinct is to run the completely opposite way and be as different to Asriel as possible, which is sad considering Asriel and Kris share interests like playing videogames and were in the same friendgroup. I understand why once Asriel left Kris felt super lonely and probably empty, because their "only opportunity of identity" left for college and left them alone with the person who's mostly responsible of their lack of freedom and identity, Toriel.
I wonder if we are going to get Asgore's thought on the matter too. And how his relationship with Kris maybe was. Like, I think there is no way he was perfect, nobody is... but somehow, I think that while Toriel was maybe the best parent for Asriel, maybe for Kris it could have been Asgore. That if you gave Kris the choice, they would maybe prefers being with Asgore, even though he is less financially stable and would surely not get the custody. Eample would be, did Asgore was the one who encouraged Kris's interest somehow ? In Undertale, he did bound with Chara because they both seemed to love gardening (Chara's knife being actually a dagger for gardening, surely a gift from Asgore). I think Toriel's mentality is maybe the "I know what is best for you" kind as a parent, even when maybe, this isn't, you know, what is best for the kid, while Asgore would be more of the "sitting and giving you a pseudo-therapy session" type (at least, in my head)
@@orianefaton1885 oohh I like that thought, Asgore does seem like a super chill guy, that type of dad who would prefer his children to have a little fun even if it meant getting a bit dirty. Asgore does seem really alone and like he asks Toriel about Kris and Asriel in chapter 2, we also know he respects Kris' opinion on hugs so that's more attention to Kris preferences than Toriel already lol. And yeah he may have made a mistake in the past which would explain why Toriel is so cold to him, but I'm guessing that in Kris' eyes he's still their dad. I hope future chapters explore Kris and Asgore's relationship.
About the Toriel stuff, it would be amazing if they adressed that Kris isn't given breakfast or dinner in either of the chapters. I know that's just for practical reasons, because it's a game and you don't want to waste the player's time, but it's still strange in-universe.
@@abokabsa or they really need to shit and we prevent them from doing so. Alternatively, they’re starving, so they can’t produce enough waste products to use the toilet.
Alright wow, finished the video and there's so many good talking points! Noelle - I think it's pretty obvious how Noelle's and Queen's relationships relates to her mother being an extreme helicopter parent, but I never put together that she would've become thay way from Dess going missing! The insight that Queen looking at Noelle's "strange and sad searches" relating to her mother keeping track of her browsing history was a good touch too. Susie - Great idea that Queen could represent her parents being neglectful. It might even be as severe as with Aubrey's parents in Omori, where they divorced, dad left, and she's stuck with a mother who sits on the couch all day. She became quite the delinquent partially due to that. As for why Susie doesn't call her parents, I think it's just because she know they won't care if she doesn't come home that night anyways, or at least that the call wouldn't be needed. Kris - Wow. This uh... gave a lot. All those funny scenes with Kris and Queen in the city now feel a lot darker. It doesn't really make sense that, despite Kris searching up so many different things they're interested in, besides their custom room Queen never really acknowledges any of that, thinking they're bland. It must really hurt Kris to hear those things, or at the very least they're not happy Queen says them. You make a really good point about Asgore too. It's implied Kris really loves Asgore, and of course they hate that their parents are divorced. The poor kid is suffering while Toriel doesn't make an effort to fix things. And yeah I can definitely see the soul thing being an allegory for self harm- Kris's lurching and crazed expression definitely support that. Really dark but, it could even tie into the allegory of them not being in control of their life in a less literal sense. I've heard that some people self-harm either to feel pain, the one thing they think they can feel when they're depressed, or to feel like they're in control of something, of at least when they're hurting themself, in a twisted form of rebellion. Berdly - First off how dare you for hating on my boy Berdly smh. Seriously though I can get the disdain for him, but like, kinda feels like you're hating on a character meant to be annoying and obnoxious when you obviously know that's an important part of his character and that he starts to change that- it's like the whole point of his story. Anyways, mother stuff, yeah Berdly's is probably the second most obvious. Him being ignored by Queen and eventually controlled ties in pretty well with his need for validation, no doubt his parents neglect him and his mother might straight up despise having to take care of him. Ralsei- I agree with a lot of your points here, it did always feel weird to me how little he was ever included by Queen until I realized it wasn't just played for laughs. I do think it stems less from him having neglectful parents, and more from him just not having parents, either cus they died/were separated from him or because darkner reasons he never had any. So yeah a lot of good points all around! King's role definitely doesn't tie into this and I agree that he acts as a moral compass, somewhat similar to Sans in that he judges you for your actions. As for the secret bosses tying into Kris's story as foils and that you have to actively seek them out which might be a metaphor for facing your darkest thoughts in order to self improve yeah. Hell of a lot to talk about how they fit in narratively! And as for Kris's relationship with his mother being addressed, I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Toby knows what he's doing with his characters and I doubt he'd write Toriel like this to keep her as a perfect mother, and give her no character arc in Ch3's dark world. Trust the dog. :)
it's clear that toriel's method of parenting is flawed, just like in undertale. but at the same time, she isn't really to blame and it's more like a bunch of misunderstandings, much like how toby fox handles characters like queen. the list of problems kris has is already quite long without us even knowing everything about them, and i feel like some of them can't be solved by her even if she knew. i can see things like the favouritism with asriel being resolved
When looking at Queen through this lense I feel like her complaining about how ungrateful the others kids are to Kris might tell us that Toriel vents her emotions to her kid(s). Considering this with the drinking thing and *especially* how has her fears move her to stop Frisk from leaving the ruins in UNDERTALE it shows that she might not always be the most emotionally mature and she makes that her kid's problem.
holy shit this is the best and most unqiue deltarune theory I've seen, most of the theories are about major lore implications and what not and those are great, but using sort of text analysis to flesh out character backstories is soooo good, thanks for this!! also pleaseee drop the dark mirror theory
To the 'Susie moved just recently into hometown' theory: I actually think Susie lived at least a year in hometown because when her and Kris are talking on the couch, she mentiones the festival and how the town looks like a carnival or something like that. The point is that she must have been present at at least one festival to know that. (Or she just googled it).
@@kookiautumn1710 Yes, that's true. When someone says "recently" I just always think of the timespan of a month as the maximum and two days as a minimum but a year is still not that long but not too short either.
Noelle's "dream" helped her realize that she needs to stand up for herself against her mother. Ralsei helped Susie realize that being aggressive isn't the only way to live. The dark fountains create a symbolic figure so the LIghtners overcome their weak point. We can even see Susie's eyes after the first chapter! So... why doesn't Kris show his eye? Why didn't they change? They probably need Asriel to be more social, but Ralsei, who is really familiar to Kris, doesn't help them. But Kris does become more social, because the soul controls him... but the soul is in the light world, as well... and Ralsei also knows about the soul... You know what? Theorizing is hard, I'm just gonna wait for the full release, most secrets will get revealed then.
When you were mentioning that Susie lashed out at Queen for taking someone she cares about away at this part: 6:42 As well as the recently moved to hometown theory earlier, A thought came to my head, what if Susie's parent's went through a divorce? And that caused her to have to leave her original home. And even more to add to that, what if Susie either had a sibling, or more probable, perhaps a friend that she had to leave behind? Like, Susie and her parents lived in another place, her parents separated, and her mom took her to hometown, maybe separating her from a friend or someone she cared about at her previous home. That is speculation, but it just kinda came to me when you said that stuff. And I'm pretty sure that her financial situation isn't good either, which is usually common if there is only one parent in the house, which kinda adds to that theory in a way? Reason I say that is from both her design and dialogue, like, her outfit is a bit worn and torn, which is a bit of a giveaway for old clothes, so maybe she doesn't have any better or new clothing items. And when Ralsei is showing Susie her room, she's kinda surprised by it, saying "My own room huh..." which makes me think that she might not have her own room, so, not a lot of money in her family
It's very possible! Personally, I see it as Susie having to leave behind her old life for a new one she doesn't want, and didn't have a say in choosing, but my interpretation is specifically very vague because we just don't know enough about Susie and her homelife. A lot of things about Susie are very mysterious, and I can't wait to see how it all gets revealed in the game!
forgot where this happens, but susie once damaged undyne's car and it was implied that she was younger when it happened (or maybe im misremembering lol)
Knowing most of the dark fountains are made by stabbing the ground (IDK about castletown with its pure fountain), and at least two of those times were on rugs or carpet, I'm gonna agree that those new dark fountains _are_ 50% darkness, 50% polyester, maybe with a cotton blend to boot. ;) Okay but for real, excellent theory, and I think Ralsei has even more you could connect: The Butler outfit itself. - This could be, with them not knowing how to treat him or what to do with him, so instead they made him essentially a servant in his own home (Cinderella style, serving his parents like how Flowey takes care of drunk Toriel/etc), being brought up thinking that he should accept and simply serve them as a servant not because it's kind to do so, but because it's what he was taught to do. Who he is. - Similar but not implicitly connected to the that point up there, it could also reflect on how he was "Given a Job" to do by his parents, and doesn't stop to resist or question it, and it, for Ralsei, became his identity and everything he is. Ralsei was put in the butler outfit, guess this is his role now. He didn't try to individually fight Queen, even when she had no cage to catch him, nor does the game pull the Soul over to him for a conflict like the Susie vs Lancer fight. He does not resist. Ralsei was given a role to fill and serve as, and well, guess that's his life now, until someone comes along to make him question it. Ralsei was told the prophecy and to stop the Roaring/etc. Guess that is his life now. He never stops to think the heroes might resist or have other plans, because he was given a Task, Stop the Roaring, as the only one left (possibly a dramatic "on his parent's last request" type situation, I could see that later, or a "to prevent it from happening again, I'm going to make sure I do exactly what they asked" type thing.) He was Assigned a Job by whoever was left, and he was going to carry it out.
In general I really like that reading of Queen whether it ends up being somewhat canon or not. Though, I'm afraid you might have a pretty good point about Ralsei likely not even applying to it though. Something I noticed as a stark contract between the Light World and the Dark Worlds is that (with Lancer as the only exception for whatever reason) in the Dark Worlds there's no parent-child relationships at all, while the Light World has the themes of family present literally around every corner. In the Dark Worlds, everyone seems to just exist on their own, and it makes sense considering we know they were supposed to have been "made from the Fountains". This logic likely applies to Ralsei as well, especially due to the text in his unused Manual (I know I know, "don't treat unused assets as 100% canon" yadda yadda yadda) reading "Dedicated to the unending pillar of darkness that gives my body form", which not only is another nail in the coffin to the awful Ralsei is a Lightner theory, but also further hints at the statement that all Darkners are made from their Fountains' darkness. In this case, Ralsei never had any parents, and him being an extremely one-dimensional (sorry but that's the truth thus far, hope he gets more development soon) character revolving his entire existence around the Prophecy and the Three Heroes makes quite a lot of sense. It's not like his Dark World is populated by other Darkners than himself initially in which case he would at least have someone to learn from on how to interact with other sentient beings at all. His questioning of himself and what being Ralsei-like even means in this case comes from him finally realising that he doesn't really have too much of a personality. He pretty much outright states that he got used to being kind because he thought that was what being friends was about.
Thank you for the in-depth comment! While the Darkners' are given *form* by the dark fountains, I don't think the fountains are what give them life. From King and Queen's interaction, we can see that they have history, despite both of their fountains being lethal to the other. Not only that, but Seam knows Queen and is shocked when he sees her in Castletown, and both Tasque Manager and Spamton speak ill of Jevil, as if they knew him shortly before he was imprisoned for being a danger to people. This leads me to believe Darkners exist as "ideas", or something similar, before their fountain is formed. When a fountain springs forth, it gives Darkners form, and allows them to directly affect the world around them, and most importantly, to meet and interact with lightners. This doesn't mean they didn't exist before the fountain is formed, and it's very likely they have internal logic and lives to live without being given forms. Like how Lancer recalls having three glasses of milk for dinner before, it's too specific for it to have a "darkners were all created with the fountain" explenation, imo. But, I don't want to get any more speculative about that since we don't know enough about their nature to conclude anything concrete. And, yeah, Ralsei is on really shaky ground with this theory. While I don't think Ralsei is one-dimensional, I see where you're coming from. He doesn't get a chance to really shine like Susie, Kris, Noelle, and even Berdley have, probably because he doesn't allow himself to take center stage because of what he thinks his purpose is. I genuinely want to see where his character goes from here, and I hope he gets a chance to realise he's allowed to be himself in every way, without anyone else telling him be that way.
@@kookiautumn1710 You have a really good point about the Darkners existing prior to the fountains, I seem to have forgotten about that. My point about Ralsei being one-dimensional has the key phrase of "thus far", because I feel like there are hints left about in both chapters that he's a little more than just a kind fluffy boy. But... so far he's just been a kind fluffy boy. Personally I find it almost sickening that he's so fixated on the notion that Darkners are supposed to serve the Lightners (which doesn't seem to be a common view among the Darkners) that he's literally happy to be called your lackey. But that's just me I guess, and I sincerely hope he gets to shine a bit brighter in the future chapters... Maybe we'll finally get to learn what he and Kris were talking about in the Card Castle prison cell and during the ferris wheel scene :)
@@abcdef-ms9mb I have a little theory. Most likely, Ralsei was literally created by Asriel with only one purpose - to embody the Legend that he composed, because he saw the danger in the Dark Worlds and the possibility of the Roaring (this may all be a consequence of the very events associated with Dess' disappearance, but this is already part of my other theory). That is why Ralsei sees himself as just a "tool" that should help the Heroes to fulfill the Legend (You may wonder, "Why Susie is a part of the Legend composed by Asriel, if he didn't know her?" - most likely, he himself knew her even is she didn't, considering that he kept at home and didn't want to return to the library the book "How to Draw Dragons" with a purple dragon on the cover). So that is why Ralsei doesn't know what "being Ralsei" is - he considers himself as something like an NPC that just have a "guide" plot role.
14:39 as someone who has lived in a small town for most of my life: no, small towns often do NOT have therapists, which leads to. a Lot of issues with the people living in there, not being able to find ways to heal
Thank you thank you for doing this "theory video" that's (by your own admission) more of a literary analysis. I have been HUNGRY for people to talk abt themes and character motivation but it's all just "is spamton an Ally of the Queer Community/ gaster?" I'm excited for you to make more work. I haven't ever enjoyed a Deltarune video this much, hands down
With this analysis and Deltarune's themes of escapism and control, it makes Berdly's actions and death in the Snowgrave route even more devastating. In the light world (real world) he can't do anything about Noelle's neglectful mother, he can do anything about his own mom purposely ignoring him, his decisions don't matter. But here? In this land of darkness? He's a cyber-knight wielding a halberd of energy and can fly and do magic! He, for once in his life, CAN do something when he sees his friend in danger. He can't speak out against the mayor of the town for scaring Noelle, he can't ask for help from his parents, but he CAN do his damndest to magically blast away the person abusing his friend in this fantasy world. And what does he get for standing his ground. An icy and lonely death. Love how Toby makes such lighthearted and beautiful games that have incredibly dark and terrifying concepts if you choose to look for them. It's amazing
Unrelated but if Kris is self-harming that would explain the knife scene at the beginning of chapter two PERFECTLY; it's a flashback to Toriel finding out- that's why she tells susie "she does this sometimes" holy fuck my mind is blown
It also shows Toriel's morbid leniancy of it. Instead of stepping in and stopping Kris, getting them help, etc, she just... tries to sweep it under the rug. She talks about it to Susie as if Kris is just doing nothing in the bathroom, which, from her hesitating to even mention it, we KNOW she knows more than she lets on. It's honestly really fucked up the more you think about it...
@@kookiautumn1710 Was watching one Andrew Cunningham's video on Kris & towards the end he mentioned that, while it seems out of character for Kris to create a dark fountain if you forced them to follow the snowgrave, perhaps it's merely the case that the audience collectively doesn't understand Kris enough. Taking everything you've said here their actions at the end of chapter 2 are making more & more sense to me...
I think now i understand better why Toriel doesn't care that Kris have a knife. I remember I used to think about her as cute mommy goat that tries to do best. I don't think she is bad, you can see that she is very sweet to Susie and that's what she needs, someone who care about her, but the relationship with Kris isn't healthy.
my own theory about how ralsei travels between dark worlds is he literally just walks. in the first game he said that the second dark fountain appeared on the horizon. the first fountain is the closet dark world. On my recent playthrough i noticed that the stone formations in the background of one room of the cliffs at the start are in fact giant pieces of chalk. Lancer rode his bike from the game room dark world to the closet dark world to fight kris and susie, and then the gang goes from the closet to the old classroom. Ralsei just went to the computer lab dark world same way the gang went to the game room dark world. the real question is why he doesnt turn to stone and why dont the game room and computer lab residents turn to stone in the closet dark world.
The answer to your question is provided in-game, though Ralsei words it weird. The "grand dark fountain", the one in Castletown (closet fountain), is made of "pure darkness", being able to sustain the form of any darkner. It's a reasonable thing to assume that Ralsei doesn't turn to stone because his origin is from said grand fountain, and the darkness making his form can "adapt", so to speak, to the darkness of any other fountain. At least, that's what's been hinted at so far, but I may be wrong.
If I had a nickel for every Deltarune analysis video that had Homestuck content in the middle of it, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice.
This video is my absolute favourite analysis/theory of deltarune out there. you go in depth and are pretty unbiased (not liking berdly, yet having a very good and well thought out analysis of him) and you don't instantly go to it being all black and white, understanding someone can be a good person and have flaws that doesn't instantly make them evil or even a bad person (because god damn do deltarune fan theories often forget about moral complexity) and you can easily connect the dots that are set up and not fully explained easily (again many deltarune theories forget that) this was a very refreshing analysis to watch, to see someone really understand the characters from the fraction of what we know. good job!! keep it up!!
Maybe Queen for Ralsei doesn't represent his actual mother, but rather the lighteners themselves, that, after having created and sprung life in the dark world, abandoned him to be alone in castle town, forgotten until Frisk and Susie showed up
15:08 this does make sense, actually, as while the Grand Dark Fountain's world has no resemblance to anything that would be in a closet, the dark fountains in the unused classroom (card castle) are essentially made of the things in that room. The same goes for the fountain in the computer lab, being made using mostly things on computers. This is more than likely because while yes, the fountains in the unused classroom and computer lab MOSTLY darkness, the fountains and their denizens also contain the energy of the location they were created in. This is why darkners turn to stone if they "aren't compatible" (having energy that opposes the energy in the area). Ralsei can go anywhere because he is made of pure darkness (and also its shown its possible to go to a different dark world without leaving the first one in chapter 1, when we go to the card world from ralsei's dark world).
Now THIS is a good theory, shining multiple lights on a connection you thought you already had a good understanding of and expanding on it with well detailed points. I was so focused on Noelle's relationship with Queen I hadn't even bothered to look at everyone else too deeply. Great video! (My boy Berdly will win your heart, just you wait.)
Thank you for the nice comment! I always like to look at things that don't get enough of a spotlight so I'm glad I'm shifting other peoples' attention, too! (Also, no, he won't, he's too painfully unfunny and draining to watch for me to ever like him as a character lmao)
In snowgrave, i admire that as soon as berdly saw noelle, probably his best and only friend, possibly being hurt by "Kris's" (our) actions, he immediately sqaures up to beat the shit out of kris. For that he has about banna% of my respect P.S. if you don't get it Google the atomic mass of potassium
“Does this town have a therapist?”
It’s the roaring knight. Clearly the reason they keep opening dark fountains is to let the town’s teenagers have group therapy sessions
Now _that's_ a galaxy brain theory
Canon
So the knight is one-one from infinite train "They come to work in their problem", "and if not?","theory will die here" situation
Best theory
Finally a theory where the Knight is actually good
Ralsei being made into a butler and then somewhat pushed aside by Queen is a great metaphor for him having the responsibilities of the prophecy dumped upon him and then being left entirely to his own devices until it was time for him to work to fulfill it.
She/her wingding gaster
Interesting fact is that Toriel actively hugs Kris apparently frequently. While Asgore, when we first see him in game, backs off from his hug quickly before reminding himself that Kris doesn't like hugs.
I think more than just not understand Kris, Toriel is either oblivious to many of their boundaries or doesn't respect them. She barely remarks that Kris is being weird while random townsfolk realize Kris is acting different now. I think Toriel doesn't know how to love her children, while Asgore was the more active parent. Whatever caused those two to separate, Kris being with Toriel seems like the worst outcome. Probably born out of Asgore's fluffy pushover personality.
Man Kris can't catch a break.
Man.. this hits home... literally. My mom being Toriel and me being Kris.
its so sad, maybe kris is just tired of remind her that they doesn't like certain things, after all, what's the point if she is going to forget or not care anyway?
Its even sadder when asgore admits he can't have Kris sleep over because of his financial situation (probably a combination of his depression of not being able to see his children as often and loosing his original job to something out of his control) asgore seem to understand Kris has boundaries and never over steps them , he's dosent try to pity Kris either asgore holds his happy persona without dragging down Kris with his current situation....where as toriel seems to rope Kris into her resentment of asgore whether aware of it or not
@@maverickdarkrath4780 yeah, and asgore doesnt compare kris with asriel so often, thats another reason for why kris maybe wants to be with him.
@@afasdfasafd314 It's literally what happens when a couple gets divorced, the mother will almost always get custody, regardless if they are actually fit to take care of the kid or not.
"Does this town have a therapist?"
This is an AMERICAN town. People don't have insurance for that.
My headcannon always was that Mount Ebott was located in Ireland (Or northern Ireland)
@@carmenolle5967
i am guess germany because of asgore boss music name
he based off a trope in german fairytales
where the human hero travels to a mountain to slay a evil monster and become the mountain king....
@@carmenolle5967 A real Mt. Ebott exists in Australia!
@@fanfan9554 considering muffet's existence i fully believe in Ebott being in Australia
There also seems to be a Mt. Ebott in germany
Queen also uses the acid to shield herself in the fight, and a major part of the fight is forcing her to run out, either by drinking all of it, or the much more effective violently destroying it. Much like how people use alcohol to shield themselves from the outside world. When she forms the shield it puts a wall between the heroes and herself and Berdly... much like how alcoholism can put a wall between people and their friends and family.
Oh my God and that could tie into why fighting the shield is more effective- sure one way to get someone to run out of alcohol is to get them to drink it all and either lose access or get so drunk is scares them into wanting to change.
But it's much more effective to just cut them off, in this case by destroying it.
That Berdley situation kinda makes me feel bad for him, because if he DOESN'T get the attention he so desires from his parents, and instead has to "be smart" to recieve the recognition of his fellow monsters, then I feel SUPER bad for killing him in the Snowgrave Route.
But only then 😄😉
I'm pretty sure it's implied that he just went into a coma, but I'm not sure it's 100% canon.
@@cherylsmusic6014 There's debate, but personally I think that's the most likely scenario. Monsters turn into dust when they die, and he didn't. His death would also have a massive impact on Noelle and probably on Kris and even Susie as well, something that would radiate throughout remaining chapters. I don't think it's possible to account for such a sweeping change in the future chapters since there are so many left and there is supposed to be only one ending.
@@isabellaslack7220 Yes, the dust thing is something I've seen some people mention. I'm planning on doing more research on it.
@@isabellaslack7220 there is a coma like state for monsters its called "fallen down" and the monsters in that state turn into dust after some time
So maybe berdly is that state
I'm guessing that Chapter 3 could reasonably see toriel's flaws come into play a bit more.
Something I realized is that if (more like when honestly) Toriel and Ralsei meet up, they're probably not going to get along. Honestly, I think they're gonna hate each other.
Think about it; Toriel's not gonna become a party member. She's not gonna listen to Kris tell her what to do in battles or dangerous situations or whatever, knowing Toriel, she's gonna try to be the 'adult' of the situation and 'save the children' or whatever. If I had to guess, she's not going to think that Kris should be the leader but rather she herself should be the leader because she's the "Adult" of the group.
And, additionally, I think that's going to lead to major conflict with ralsei, who firmly believes in the prophecy and that Kris is the only one who can lead to the survival of the world. I don't think Ralsei is just going to *let* toriel take control. And Ralsei has *nothing* to lose that I can think of by arguing with Toriel; Toriel has *zero* authority over Ralsei, and if anything, it's the opposite, because Ralsei is the PRINCE. (Though, whether he's prince of the entire dark world or prince of castle town dark world is kinda unclear to my knowledge) So ultimately I think we might end up seeing Ralsei be *very mad* with Toriel, which is definitely something I look forward to seeing in Chapter 3.
That's a fascinating concept! Still, though, part of me is doubtful that chapter 3 will awknoledge Toriel as in the wrong in any way, but the idea that she would clash with Ralsei like that, especially knowing that Susie likes both Toriel AND Ralsei, is really cool!
Imagine Ralsei just casting Pacify on Toriel the first chance he gets, then being all like "It was for the best, Kris. She'll never understand."
@@willow5945 nah he'll just ran her over with his mercedes
@@joshfilms4088 But Kris's vision will already have been obscured by all the family friendly lollypop smoke, so Ralsei will just say she's sleeping afterwards.
I can just imagine Susie *exploding* at Toriel at one point, particularly if Kris' Beloved Smother winds up making things absurdly more difficult than they need to be.
"You're the adult. So what? Do you have the *slightest* idea where the [curse variant of "heck" because I can't even bring myself to say mild swears] we even are? Do you even know what to DO?"
"I-"
"NO YOU DON'T! You don't know ANYTHING about this place! Being an adult does NOT give you ANY place to TELL US WHAT TO DO, when YOU don't have ANY experience in a world like this, whereas Kris and I have TWO GOD[DARN] ADVENTURES worth of experience in worlds like this! WE KNOW WHAT WE'RE DOING, YOU DON'T, SO SHUT UP AND LET KRIS LEAD!"
"But I'm-"
"YOU ONLY KNOW HOW TO LEAD KRIS IN THE LIGHT WORLD! YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW TO LEAD THEM IN A DARK WORLD! I DON'T CARE THAT YOU'RE THEIR MOM, AND THEY DON'T CARE EITHER! THEY'RE THE ONE WHO KNOWS WHAT TO DO, NOT YOU! You can get back to bossing THEM around when you get home! WHEN YOU'RE IN A WORLD WHERE YOU KNOW THE GOD[DARN] ROPES!"
Toriel being prone to alcohol abuse is something I didn't click on. Rudy even mentions that Toriel was the party animal out of the three of them.
Plus the idea of turning a home into a prison parallels undertale's tutorial, in both universes she provides a 'loving home' by not allowing them their freedom.
Very excited to see how this plays out.
Yeah, I've noticed something with UT and DR that connect the two.
They are the same universe, except for the fact that in DR the human vs monster war never happened. That's why Undyne is still a "protector" figure in DR, she hasn't lost an eye because instead of being a soldier she's a police officer. Burgerpants is still working an average fast food job. Asriel is still a "golden child". Asgore still loves flowers, Alphys is still a nervous, low self esteemed, and works a job that's only a little less intense than ROyal Scientist. Everyone's the same, but different. They've been changed by the circumstances around them. Something that still interests me is how Gaster is related, was he ever a school teacher? What did he do in his offtime instead of weird DT experiments?
And *_is he the KNIGHT???_*
just realized in the undertale alarm clock she gets omega drunk because of the xxxxxxx adult drink mettaton gave her
but according to the most trusthworthy version of flowey she has done this before
since she’ll presumably be a character in chapter 3 hopefully she’ll get an opportunity to better connect with and understand kris
@@heyitzmae Just curious on your insight, what is the reason for Kris creating the portal?
@@QUBIQUBED my current theory, he wants to keep having adventures with Susie and ralsie his only real friends and the only people to actually treat him like a person with desires and hobbies
after hearing this theory, especially the Kris part, the dialogue line from the final boss battle where Queen says "And Kris... Ok I Don't Remember What You Like" suddenly seems to hit in a different light...
Omg bro...
Man that hurts A LOT to Kris and to us.
Another note about Susie not connecting with her mom, is that she was incredibly surprised when Ralsei created a room for her that was a) JUST for her and b) was focused on what she liked.
Throughout both chapters whenever someone did something for her that fit her interests she was often surprised and happy. She said Lancer cared about her contributions and was psyched when Kris showed her the moss in the alleyway.
Hollup,,, there was moss on the alleyway???
@@oncefighting I’m surprised no one mentions this much because it always got me thinking about what her home life is like if she didn’t feel the need to call her parent or guardian to let them know her whereabouts and whether she was in safety.
Most likely experiencing parent neglect which could possibly be why she has a closed off personality. Because her parents don’t care about her so why should anyone else? (In her mindset, obviously everyone should care about Susie! That’s why everyone has a crush on her!)
I always wondered why she was so surprised to have her own room but this theory made that make sense (i mean i don't have my own room but yeah)
And then there's Noelle giving Susie chalks (which is something she ate when don't have anything better), Susie just mentioned Noelle's skewed priorities.
I remember enjoying Berdly the most of the new characters, and with this theory in mind it makes me feel so terrible for the kid
Snow grave route already Hits different due to berdly caring about Noelle and actually being a big part of neutral and pacifist route.
Now it hits different because berdly was abandoned and left to rot and ignore just like what his mother does to him.
Same 😭
Same! I don't like him as much as some of the other characters, but now that I see the possible reason for why he acts the way he does, it makes me feel so bad for him.
Disliked the video just for the shade thrown on Berdly
He was just instantly my favourite
i thought all the motherly stuff also ties in well with the internet basically raising children today. Parents handing kids a tablet like its a semi-permanent babysitter might as well be a mother as well. She kinda reflects that in her battle speech about everyone finding solace in dumping their woes and surrending their free will to the comforting bosom of the internet, which queen finds herself a proxy for as a laptop computer.
Might be getting too philosophical with that but I think its interesting to consider.
I think by "Pure darkness" you mentioned in Ralsei's segment, they mean a refined, carefully crafted dark fountain, in contrast to the sloppily made ones created when someone just slams the ground with a sharp object. The classroom fountain, library fountain, and the one Kris made on Tori's house are made of raw darkness made on a whim by someone just trying to get something done. The Castle Town fountain was probably made a long, long time ago around the same time the legend of Deltarune was created. Mostly speculative, has almost nothing to do with Queen, really just my interpretation ,but ibvdbvieubiubviuv.
That actually makes a lot of sense! I never would've pieced that together myself, ngl
@@kookiautumn1710 It also explains why Ralsei doesn’t turn to stone in other dark worlds, being the *Prince* of the Dark Castle Town pure darkness fountain, he essentially has admin privileges.
that would explain why the first section and Castletown don't really equate to any real world objects for a closet.(other than _maybe_ the dusty, cloud-y things, which every treats as chalk as though it was fact, but I don't know)
@@Best_Rauru_Simp_1997 I heard a theory that the cliffs they explore are actually the shelves in the closet.
Good point, but I still believe the 100% darkness theory
Put a freshwater fish (a Darkner from 1 world) in saltwater (a different Dark World), it will die
If the objects or even programs in the Light World can influence the Dark World, they should affect the fountain too
Or under the theory that Dark Worlds still exist without the fountain and are just inaccessible without a fountain, it is likely the impurities in the world itself that turns them to stone
Try shoving a playing card into a computer's hard drive
Also if it was made thousands of years ago, who built the school there, why did they build a school next to an infinite pillar of intricate darkness, and *_HOW_* ?
When people say that Ralsei isn’t a darkner because he doesn’t turn to stone in character 2 makes no sense, because the original star walker also don’t turn to stone, so are they not a darkner also?
To add to this, let me emphasize that Ralsei said they *MIGHT NOT* be compatible with other Dark Worlds.
Not *WILL NOT*, but *MIGHT NOT*.
Also, ralsei comes from a pure dark fountain, a type of fountain that can give any darkner form, so that's probably why he can exist under other fountains as well
Starwalker does turn to stone, but I don’t remember the exact cut off point for his petrification. Though I also want to bring up how nobody talks about Ralsei not being petrified in the Card Kingdom either, cause that place and Castle Town are completely separate dark worlds, separated by the door that connects the closet to the abandoned classroom, which becomes the great golden door we pass through in chapter 1.
@@pengdaw2nd He still is fully alive and well during the Queen mecha segment.
Lancer only turns to stone once he is brought out of kris’ pocket and the same thing happens with rouxls. In other words, a darkner has to actually be exposed to an incompatible dark world in order to turn to stone. The original starwalker is never brought out of the inventory, so everything checks out. As for why rouxls took longer to turn to stone, it’s either related to power level or comedic timing.
"i hate berdly"
(oh boy better prepare for needless slander)
"here's a well crafted explanation for the universal mother in berdly writing him really well and even more tragically than he already was"
oh thank god i'm so proud you contained yourself and gave berdly some credit
I can genuinely dislike a character, but still engage with them as part of the story. Sadly, this is not something most people do... I can personally never properly empathise with Berdley, but I can still objectively understand his emotions and motivations, y'know?
@@kookiautumn1710 yeah good on you for being able to understand these things and not give berdly any needless slander that is absolutely not what he is like most people seem to
of course i can empathize with berdly a lot especially considering a friend of mine who struggles with being in the gifted role but its fine to not be able to relate
i cant relate with noelle spilling her spaghetti every fucking second now can i
Berdly was so over the top annoying and obnoxious that it actually made me love him. He's the kinda of character you love to hate or see get punished, like Daffy Duck.
@@kookiautumn1710 at least you didn't just boil him down to "he's homophobic, misogynistic and what not" because those arguments completely miss a big detail of birdlys character, the only person birdly ever genuine kindness from is Noelle, and because he's not used to it he missundetands and believes Noelle has a one sided crush on him , but he also wouldn't want to risk loosing her so he never brings it up..until his confidence boost from Susie which makes him finally comfort Noelle about it (despite the fact its a massive misunderstanding and he's to socially inept to catch on to the fact) berdly is literally that kid who never got affection and now dosnet understand the concept of platonic love or genuine friendship until the end of chapter 2s pacifist route. Also he admit to not bring against dating frisk if it weren't for the fact he was into sussie at the time (which yes was also a massive misunderstanding do to him not understanding platonic kindness but he does respect Kris gender identity enough to use there pronouns and not be against being with them ) berdly is just an attention hog but he has the best of intentions when it comes to his friends
@@maverickdarkrath4780 He is not homophobic.
Toby Fox supporst lgbt why he puts homophobic character?
Yeah he can thnk Noelle has crush on him beacuse Noelle nice to him. But we know this sip is never beging cannon. And treathing Kris like that is not means he is transphobic/homophobic maybe this personall.
Did you guys attack any "game" "character" for unrescpeting fallin love typeyes like death treath?
What if Ralsei was actually not supposed to be a part of the troupe, and just lied so he could be with the heroes on their journey because he's been alone for so long. He was just supposed to speak about the prophecy and send the heroes on their way, which is why he's kinda just left sorta in the background.
it makes sense since of how jarring "and a prince of the dark" is compared to the 2 other short lines instead of it being shorter like the other ones (ex: "a human a monster and a dark prince")
ralsei seemingly rewriting what is “supposed to happen” might also fit with his attitude towards spamton. the way he glosses over everything after the spamton neo fight may be because he forgot to make certain “adustments,” or just had not been prepared for spamton.
woah thats a cool theory. that also could fit with the theory that ralsei has been trying to manipulate or talk to kris behind the scenes. ralsei may not just leeching himself into the story, but that hes still trying to manipulate more.
holy shit evil ralsei au is looking more and more prominent…. like ralsei knows he is just meant to pass them along their journey. but instead he takes the story by the wheel and is trying to get rid of your choices. maybe he is the one pushing the story towards being linear & non-choice. he is paving the road for route he wants. imagine he really is the reason kris opened a dark world.
although ralsei says closing the dark worlds will prevent the roaring, this version of ralsei could just be lying. what if the roaring is happens when enough fountains have been ripped open (and not based on if it still flows). ralsei could be like asgore, just waiting until he has enough ‘souls,’ like maybe the darkworlds are like souls to the titans (??????)? and ralsei could be getting angels heaven or whatever. holyshit epic end of the game goat angel 2.0 ?!?!? nah that is too far. but maybe opening a dark world is what gives the titans souls/power or wakes them up? idk this speculation may be a stretch !
thank you this helps support the evil ralsei au/theory/headcanon ive had for a bit. i wanna start an animatic on this and this is gonna give me even more ideas
But then again, the fact he can go to absolutely every other dark world could be because he is supposed to be part of the journey, and he is the only darkner who can be part of the journey.
@@orianefaton1885 i mean ralsei was special to begin with. he is the only one from the castle town darkworld. maybe he wasn’t lying about his “pure darkness fountain” giving him more abilities. he already had the special role of greeting susie & kris to explain the profecy
Yeeesss i love this. Hes another stereotypical game character that wants to be more
I do have to wonder if Toby put so much emphasis on these characters being different people that lived different lives because he actually does plan to address Toriel's motherly behavior in the next chapter because otherwise fans could be very up and arms given all the "I love you goat mom!" stuff you see in the Undertale fandom. Hell as far as we know Toriel may be the instigator as to why her and Asgore are broke up and Asgore didn't actually do anything awful this time to cause it. Like there's a lot to unpack there assuming your theory is correct.
Honestly, I entirely think the divorce is due to Toriel's feelings, not any event that Asgore was responsible for. The biggest tell for this is the difference between Undertale Asgore and Deltarune Asgore. In Undertale, Asgore asks Toriel if she still wants to be friends ONCE, and then drops the subject entirely. Toriel avoids him, and he can tell, and he doesn't insert himself into the things she does or the people she talks to, because he knows WHY she put up those boundries, and he feels guilty about how he made her feel.
MEANWHILE, in deltarune, Asgore doesn't have that baseline of guilt, or understanding, and he keeps trying to win back Toriel's affection. He may be dense, but he cares about Toriel's feelings, he's genuinely just trying to relight the spark between them, and it's not working because Toriel just doesn't feel that way anymore. Trying to give their divorce some grand meaning or reason for the event sort of undermines the fact that sometimes people fall out of love, and it's a very mundane kind of tragedy. Neither of them are in the wrong, or in the right, but what happened still had a lot of negative consequences.
@@kookiautumn1710 "after asgore was removed from the force"
I really think asgore also fucked up in this universe...
@@soupfan1 He probably failed to look for Dess after her disappearance, so Noelle and Dess' mom (the mayor) took him out of the force.
@@soupfan1 Well, duh? Of course he fucked up here too? It's Asgore, it's basically his main character trait, but my point is that in this universe, it didn't cause the crumbling of his marrige. In the news article, his surname is still listed as "Dreemurr", and we know that's Toriel's current surname in Deltarune, so it's safe to assume that when Asgore was removed from the force, him and Toriel were still together.
The question would be about whether or not this is really fair to blame him for that. Toriel maybe do also blame him, since Dess was friend with Asriel and Kris.
Also, the divorce is visbly clearly bad for the kids (or at the very least, Kris). With how much she tries to distance herself from Asgore, something tells me that if she could, she would make it so Kris would not even have the right to see him, even though I think Asgore seem to be less toxic of a parent for them. (maybe because he is less overprotective and all ? I feel like Asgore would actually be a better emotional support to Kris that Toriel is, somehow)
When you look at Queen and Berdly's relationship as between the Queen of the Dark World and a random annoying kid, it's something like "haha she got his name wrong lmaooooooooooo." But when you look at it as between a mother and her son, it becomes much more disturbing and worrying.
11:01 I like how DR Toriel shares that in common with how UT Toriel treated Frisk.
17:10 I do think this is going to be addressed at some point. Kris living in Asriel's shadow has been hammered home pretty deliberately over these two chapters, and as I mentioned before, Toriel was addressed as a flawed character in Undertale, so I doubt that's something Toby would just drop given everything that's been set up.
DT? you mean DR?
¨Toriel was addressed as a flawed character in Undertale¨ when did that happened? i dont remeber.
@@afasdfasafd314 well she was in the undertale universe at least, what with the getting black out drunk at the Christmas party so much they had to lock her in a shed
@@MattBnl2ih that was a comic moment more than anything else
True,I feel bad for Kris and mad and Toriel
The Queen isn't Lancer's actual mother
When she claims "After All... I Am His Mother"
The King responds "WHEN WAS THAT DECIDED?"
She says "Arbitrarily Right Now"
lol
That was about Queen looking after Lancer, not her being his mother
@@personalover249 Did you not read the qoute? She admits that she only became Lancer's mom "Arbitrarily Right Now
@@حَسن-م3ه9ظ No she decided she would be looking after Lancer "arbitrarily right now"
@@personalover249 When King asked "WHEN WAS THAT DECIDED?" he was talking about her claiming to be Lancer's mom, and she clarifies that she became his mother now, King doesn't actually protest to her taking care of Lancer, he says "Do what you please with the boy."
Maybe Queen forgetting about Ralsei could be because he doesn't have parents. How else would a character representative of all mothers interact with someone that doesn't have a mother?
good point
I like to think the dark fountain itself, where ralsei originates, its his "parent".
Honestly, that kind of makes sense, and also kinda makes things worse for the poor boi. Dude was literally born so he could serve a prophecy and nothing else. Plus, everything about the theory also fits with the idea of the dark fountain being Ralsei's parent.
@@Drax69420 he would have purpose after deltarune over
See the ralsei deadly accident theory
@@creeperYT9824 Yeah, I did. It's a neat theory.
Do Darkners even really have parents? I mean, there's Lancer and King, but that might just be a case of Lightner concepts mapping onto the Ace and King of Spades cards.
What if Ralsei's "mother" in this analogy is the Dark Fountain? It spawned Ralsei one day, leaving him alone with nothing but the knowledge of the prophecy, his "purpose"
You can tell that is really messing him up. Ralsei has no identity beyond his role in the prophecy. He's only now starting to loosen up a little (mostly with Susie), but he still has no idea of what it means to be "Ralsei".
Omg you’re right!
In the unused manual he even dedicates the book to it
New hc 😍😍
Queen represents the "Mother"board of a server modem. So, mother makes sense.
Just like king is a king spades, lancer is a jack of spades, and Rouxxls Kaard is a Rules Card.
One way or another, they are all cards.
I thought he was the Ace of Spades?
One of the two.
i had NEVER realized the "MOTHERboard" thing and i am groaning so hard, but mostly at myself
nah yeah Lancers the Jack of Spades, he literally introduces himself as "Dark Jack Lancer" in his fight
Oh yeah there's this theory (I'm not sure if it's canonically implied??) that Queen's lightworld counterpart is a laptop in the computer lab. Technically a motherboard completes the laptop. So yeah she probably is a motherboard
One thing I could mention about the Toriel/Kris portion of this theory is that Toriel seems to only bring up video games and television around Kris, similar to how Queen only truly engages with Kris' hobbies through an arcade game. I could be misremembering, but a good portion of Toriel's dialogue is her asking Kris if they remember playing video games with Asriel, etc.
But I do think this is one of the stronger Deltarune theory videos out there. Too many don't feel cohesive, like they don't tie all the points together successfully or end up being kind of meaningless. But this one makes a lot of sense to the plot of Deltarune as well as it's heavy themes of escapism
Thank you for the compliments! And, yeah, I absolutely see what you mean when it comes to Toriel. Video games are one of Kris' hobbies, but they seem to have picked them up from Asriel, possibly explaining why it's the only one of "Kris'" interests that she takes note of. But, maybe I'm being a tad pessemistic on that front haha
@@ivy67767wait how does the mom stuff relate to the escapism?
Just gotta say, your read on Queen paralleling Toriel is REALLY unique! It casts some interesting (and potentially sad) light on Kris and Toriel, and I think there's a lot of validity to it. I really do hope we see some of those implications explored a bit more in the future because while it may look wholesome on the surface, there's definitely some shadier stuff that I think isn't even intentional on her part. Just as Queen wanted to act in Noelle's best interest, I think Toriel does for Kris, but she just can't really connect with them that well.
can you make a video discussing how asriel is the worst undertale character
@@joaquinjovane4226 The virgin Asriel versus the chad Ralsei
@@joaquinjovane4226 That's quite the hot take to be delegated for someone else to make
Deltarune's main cast in the nutshell:
PLEASE HAVE THERAPY
Yeah! Or “I will drive there myself to either give you therapy or make sure you get it!”
Bruh even the Dumpster Salesman needs therapy these worlds are messed up-
@@michaellammey2543 I must say almost every character in Deltarune has at least one mental problem, including the darkners (excludes Starwalker because not much is said about them)
So it like the persona series, man deltarune really is Toby fox’s version of persona
@@gianglamnguyen6667 Anger issues
Don't worry Jockington is a licensed therapist he'll help them :)
God this feels so true
coolest therapist in the whole world
@@NEO0950 everyone likes jockington!
@@Somirage143 Nubert: Finally! A worthy opponent!
@@Robin280497 *nubert wins instantly because jockington likes nubert too much*
I think Toriel vents out some of her problems uncontrollably to Kris when under alcohol. Similar to what acid-drunk Queen did in the alleyway. Nothing is done about it because this only started happening when Kris lives alone with Toriel.
Queen's lines could be paralleling Toriel's feelings in a way. Toriel might actually be a bit similar to Noelle's mom.
Queen: “I just cannot compute it. Why everyone is so... ungrateful.”
( I’m only doing what’s best for you controlling parent vibe)
Queen: “Kris, you don’t do things like... have opinions.”
(Again, the controlling vibe. Not as much evidence to support this but. Toriel could be restricting Kris from doing things he likes. Her dialogue about staying away from the chalk could be implying this. That she prefers Kris to go along with what she wants and thinks is best for them. And Kris doesn’t like putting up with it but feels he has to. However, she isn't as controlling as Noelle's mom.)
Queen: "Don't worry that was my throwing glass it's safe."
(Toriel could be going as far as to breaking things while drunk. Kris has to stop her, but sometimes fails. Then Toriel justifies it by saying something like, "Oh don't worry its ok, it's just glass anyway. Its my fault. I'll clean it up later. "
*they for Kris
About the second point, it could just parallel Toriel not knowing kris’s opinions. Similar to queens “I don’t remember what you like” line.
@@tellme...5905 shut up
"Kris is miserable in Toriel's care, but she doesn't do anything about it."
"She remarks how she's worried about them, but does nothing to actually help them heal."
That... makes perfect sense. She did it in Undertale too.
Not to Frisk though, to ASGORE.
In his time of greatest need, as their children evaporated before their eyes, what did she do to help her husband?
Nothing.
She let him make the grand declaration that all humans to enter the Underground were to be killed, and instead of trying to reason with him or calm him down...
She abandoned him. Ran off to the Ruins.
b-B-B-B-B-B-BB-B yryTYtuTU turouel car for frksk!1
Wdym? Its the most logical sense to leave your emotionally distraught husband, planning to aquire the souls of human children that end up in the Underground.
Why console him if he wants to murder. Its not like you can just talk it through and stay to try and make him feel better. :/
It's likely that she DID try to reason with Asgore, but not console him. It's not her job to put his feelings before her own, they were her children too, and she was grieving as well. Her coping mechanism was to get away from it all, Asgore's was to lash out. Both of them acted awful towards the other, in very different ways, and while I don't agree with what Toriel did, I can't on good faith say that Toriel should've stayed with Asgore if she didn't want to, or couldn't due to her own emotional state.
If we want an examlple of Toriel being worried but not helping in Undertale, the best example is herself. She wasn't happy in the ruins, she wasn't happy letting human children be killed, she wasn't happy when isolated, yet she didn't do anything to help herself. It's a tragic cycle she keeps finding herself in, noticing problems with what's going on but doing nothing to fix them.
@@kookiautumn1710 In some respects, it was her job. She was the queen after all, and despite this being absolutely AWFUL for her own emotional state (one of the many, many problems of a monarchy), it IS her job to ensure the Regent (Asgore) is stable and in their right mind. Asgore was most certainly not, and continues not to be right into Undertale, which seems to have negative effects into the game. The political situation in the Underground is in turmoil, the only city is overcrowded to the point where several citizens live inside a portion of the main power station (Hotland has exhaust and cooling vents of the CORE all over, meaning those areas are a part of the CORE.)
Obviously, as a person who's aware of, y'know, emotions, I 100% agree that Toriel shouldn't have stayed for her own emotional state, but due to the circumstances, her own emotional state was not the only thing at stake in her decision.
@@lozm4835 I agree, and you brought up good points, but I feel the need to add that, exactly because of the political situation, Toriel couldn't have done much. The monsters of the underground seemed to be almost unanimously on Asgore's side, and if talking Asgore out of his decision failed, should she really have put her own needs aside to try and comfort the man currently making her life even more hell than it needs to be?
Yes, she was Queen, and her job was to Rule, not to Comfort The King. She couldn't rule, though, as the people were rallied against her and her morals. She felt her only choice was to leave. Whether that choice was a good one or not is a different discussion.
Honestly toriel seems to embody "the path to hell is paved with good intentions " she's thinks keeping asgore out of Kris life is good, she thinks keeping low expectations and basic lifestyle for Kris is a good thing and she is blissfully unaware of Kris school situation as alphys is to afraid of her to bring up how weird Kris has been acting recently.
edit: also I just realized, the only adult figure Kris trust the information about the dark world with is undyne , were never given the option to tell anyone other authority figure, or toriel, Kris seems to only trust undyne...someone who very likely was very close to there father when he was still the police chief.
I think what he means by "pure" darkness is that all the other fountains are "tainted" by the Will of their creator, so unlike with other Worlds Darkners don't have to worry about not belonging because Will isn't even a part of the equation
Another tiny thing about Ralsei that may be inconsequential and completely stupid for me to point out, but the fireworks that are shown after defeating Sweet Cap'N Cakes have Kris' and Susie's faces drawn perfectly, but Ralsei's almost looks scribbled and hastily finished, possibly more evidence to back that Ralsei clings to the Lightners for attention.
Interesting theory, love the style of presentation you use. Queen being a prevalent allegory of Kris’ relationship with their mother fits well into the narrative too - as it seems Toriel will play a significant role in chapter 3 considering she’ll probably end up in the dark world. Having Queen be this figure which we can use to see the exaggerations of Kris and Toriel’s relationship be placed *directly* before the chapter which puts these two together seems really intentional. Since the trend seems to be that any lightner who enters the dark world receives character development, I’m expecting something major to change in Toriel when it comes to Kris.
For Ralsei, I’m surprised you didn’t mention the events in Castle Town after the snowgrave route (or was it minimum recruit? I can’t remember off the top of my head). While I can see I being cut for not much substance, I still see some interesting things we can pull from it.
The fact that Queen only mentions Ralsei by name when she talks about what he’s doing for her in castle town could either imply that Ralsei only receives attention or “acknowledgement” when he is “upfront” instead of just sinking into being lumped with the lightners, or it could simply mean that only though extreme external factors (in the case of Queen: literally having zero of her subjects around anymore… ignoring trashy) will Ralsei ever be acknowledged in full, maybe implying that Ralsei’s parents will experience a significant event separate from Ralsei which forces them to acknowledge him and return? Idk typing this out made me realize that there actually isn’t much to pull from this, but if anything I think it gives more substance to the notion that Ralsei can be included into this theory.
I think that, combined with the things shown in the video, the fact that Susie is constantly ravenous and constantly eats things that aren't food (even when she thinks nobody is watching, so it's not a cry for attention) points to her actually being homeless. Perhaps even a runaway. The fact that she has huge respect for the magically refilling bowl of milk in some random alley to me really underscores her living hand to mouth.
Also, god damn, that reading of Ralsei's character. Didn't expect that to hit so hard. Felt that on a spiritual level.
Finally someone who sees flaws in Toriel!! I'm so tired of people shitting on Asgore just because they're more attached to her
Yeah! I like Asgore, probably more in Deltarune then in Undertale since we actually interact with him a lot more and see his personality. Also because I feel like defending him in the scene at the store. I just want to hug the poor guy.
@@shcdemolisher yeah he's not as bad as she makes it seem
agreed. toriel reminds me way too much of my own mother, so she always kind of got on my nerves. dealing with someone like that irl is hell.
Berdly is the best character in the entire series because he’s a gamer.
Agreed
Honestly the more people complain about him the more I like him
He can't leagally die, only respawn
Yes but consider: Susie is also a gamer.
@@Phhase You aren't a true gamer until you hate Women and minorities. No exceptions.
Personal theory, Darkners might not have parents at all? They’re the inhabitants of Dark Worlds, made from inanimate objects/concepts. Sure, we know these Dark Worlds have long histories (like Spamton being huge in 1997, and Queen apparently being around at the time), but I kinda figured that since the Dark Worlds are fantasy worlds, their histories and whatnot were created retroactively upon the opening of their fountain. Sort of like how the brain can fill in gaps between memories, fusing unrelated ones together and even creating false ones to make sense of what it does remember.
This would explain quite a few existing questions about the Dark Worlds, like Ralsei’s absent parents or Lancer’s lack of a mom. I personally don’t think King is literally Lancer’s biological dad, but was assigned the role of father as the King to his Jack. His mom’s absence can therefore be explained by the deck being incomplete (as decks of cards in schools tend to be), meaning there was no Queen of Spades to make his mom. And Ralsei’s backstory of being alone his whole life makes sense when we consider that he’s the only Darkner in that closet.
So yeah, that’s my theory, kinda rough around the edges. I’m open to questions or pointing out issues with it.
well if ralsei is kris’s old horn headband, then that means his mother is kris /j
i mean TECHNICALLY kris probably eventually threw out the headband, forgetting about it. TECHNICALLY this is similar to ralsei dealing with parental absence. oh my god
oh that makes the ralsei kris ship really weird wtf
I think that all darkworlds are powered by the Prime Dark Fauntain, which is located in the closet and protected by ralsei.
This Fountain powers all darkworlds, which is why chapter 1's and chapter 2's darkworlds have characters like jevil and spamtom who talk like they've been there for ages, because they have.
Then, the fountains people with determination Open are more gateways, small amounts of darkness that make it a possibility to travel between worlds.
But the ones opened by the "Knight" are the Primes, the one's like what Ralsei guards, and that's when the main issue starts.
@@mylie6181 that even not considering that kris used the headband to fit more with the rest of their family
If so, that could be why Ralsei is a boss monster and that his name is an anagram of Asriel. Kris has always been in his shadow, to the point that for some they are just "Asriel's sibling". Ralsei is maybe supposed to represent just that. Kris trying to be like the outside behavior Asriel displayed at the same age. (Like, with how Toriel is clearly making Asriel the golden child, maybe Kris subconsciously tried to be "more like Asriel") which would even explain why the name is an anagram even better. They stopped being Kris when they were wearing it. They were trying to be Asriel 2.0.
@@orianefaton1885 omg wait i love that interpretation. maybe its also why ralsei acts “very good.” kris grew up in asriels shadow, and maybe they also wished they could be the perfect dreamurr to be accepted more(???
So what you're saying is that to properly roleplay Queen, you just need to act like an exaggerated version of the mom of whoever she's interacting with? Damn, I'd honestly love if people adhered to that instead of making her the "lol random" character and yelling potassium at everything
....I’ve been trying to work on a Queen roleplay and this might unironically work very well.
Here goes nothing, lol?
6:22 there's another small detail that could go against this
When you inspect the angel doll in chapter 2, you get a little interaction with Rudy and Susie, it goes like this:
S:... so why do you collect creppy dolls?
N:Hey, Noelle and her sister did that. Respect it!
(I'm not sure if this is an oversight, but in the next dialogue box Susie's portrait goes to serious while sweating to just serious)
S: (Noelle's sister...)
If you try to interact with it again, Susie will simply say "(...)" with the sweating portrait
This seems to imply that Susie is aware of Dess's dissapearence, or even that she knew her, which means she has lived in Hometown since at least shortly before Dess disappeared, or she heard the story from someone, which considering she almost never spoke with anyone before Ch1, I highly doubt
Actually I might upload a recording of this interaction, because I swear I have barely seen anyone talk about it.
I know the interaction you mean, and I don't think it implies that at all. A missing persons case is much more easy to hear about than one of your neighbors' older siblings or parents or whatever. Susie probably heard *something* about Noelle's sister, and someone named "holiday" being missing, but only in that moment put two and two together, yknow?
Also the fact the doll was an "angel" and directly tied to dess..
This has got to be one of, if not, my favourite Deltarune theory. The idea of Queen being the reflection of the characters' parents just makes perfect sense considering Queen is a random mess of personality throughout the game. The theory also holds strong evidences and connections which is a good thumbs up.
"I do NOT like berdly" That's so sad he's the bestest boy... And if it's true that his mother emotionally neglects and abuses him then that makes his entire story even sadder. i hope in future chapters he gets even more character development and finds a family in the fun gang.
holy shit. this is actually one of the most well thought out theories i've heard!!
it was a headcanon of mine that each chapter is going to be representative of a different character's homelife-- chapter 1 was susie, with a father who does not care about the well-being of his kid, only his own benefit. chapter 2 was, as you said, a representation of noelle's mother, overbearing, overprotective, and controlling.
THIS theory has a lot more going for it, though. it explains the character traits of, like, all of the main cast. it put's kris's actions at night into perspective, it puts ralsei's random identity crisis into perspective, it puts berdly's.... well, berdlyness into perspective. thank you for such an interesting and insightful video!!
I'd like to point out king did care about Lancer, he still calls him a bouncy pumpkin and was bluffing about dropping him, but he's so obsessed with whatever the knight told him, that he's neglecting his child and becoming a worse person...its not until he's in a cell and Kris recruits everyone that he lets his guard down long enough to show his good side. Sussie father is probably an extreme workaholic and lashes out if sussie gets in the way, (but he's probably all bark no bite similar to kings bluff) he believes what hes doing is whats best providing everything she needs not realizing what shes doing in her out side life , similar to king being unaware ogñf lancers friendship with sussie instead of killing the lightners , sussie is a slaker and tuff girl instead of a grade a student....I'm just making a lot of assumptions but its interesting to think about
@@maverickdarkrath4780 Ñ spotted. Latam? :D
@@maverickdarkrath4780 An interesting thing is that, the king was actually influenced by the fountain, making him more evil than he actually was.
@@annaalexandra8715 I've theorized that the next Chapter boss, the Queen/Spade King, will either be themed around Kris's relationship with Toriel (a crazy overbearing micromanager-type) or around Kris's relationship with Asriel (The Perfect Golden Boy who always overshadowed them). But Kris's homelife has to be the focus.
Also Rudy calls Toriel a party animal, just another small tidbit for the irresponsible drinking.
Yep, so it's canon that Deltarune Toriel is pretty much no less of a drinker than the Undertale Toriel
honestly if we judged everyone by their drinking habits in college we'd at minimum double the number of "irresponsible drinkers" in the world today.
"Does this town HAVE a therapist?"
Yeah, actually. It's muffet.
Or at least they exist as much as she does
I don't think Muffet *can* be in Deltarune. Unless I'm mistaken, she's in Undertale because of a kickstarter perk allowing someone to submit their own character to make an appearance. Same story for SoSorry
Now it's making me think chapter 3 will focus on Kris and Toriel's relationship and maybe we get to see someone else notice that we are in control over Kris.
And possibly how she may prefer our control hurting Kris
Susie is probably been in the town as long as the others since when Susie goes into Noelle's room, Susie says that she never picked on Noelle because Noelle gave her a pencil a long time ago
Im not sure if that's correct since im basing this off memory.
susie never specified how long ago noelle gave her the pencil. personally i think this tidbit adds to the "susie moved in recently" theory: noelle giving her the pencil was susie's first ever interaction with her, and this kindness contrasted against the way everyone else treats her really stuck out in her brain
we'll have to see what the canon says about all this, for now its just speculation
Like meowchela said, I don't think Susie stated exactly how long ago Noelle gave her the pencil. I think, if I remember correctly, Susie said that Noelle gave her the candy cane pencil on her *first day of school* , not specifying a date. It can also add up to the ' Susie moved here recently ' thing due to the fact that she very clearly remembers everything that happened in that moment. Like that Noelle even gave her that pencil, the pencil being specifically candy cane and she even remembered it's taste. (This could just be normal and that my short-term memory is in play right now but still.)
Toriel always talking about how great asriel is is pretty much the classic “being compared to other family members” but this time even more worse since its being done unintentionally making the person not realize its hurting the them and since they dont realize it, they continue to unintentionally compare
I imagine Ralsei's relationship with would imply that his parents might imply that he simply doesn't have parents, she doesn't interact with him in any way throughout the story, and she seems to flat out forget he exists if they aren't in the same room, so I'm thinking his parents either abandoned him when he was very young, are dead, or possibly never existed in the first place
a reason i think that susie also knows who toriel is (etleast enough to know shes kris's mum) is because of a line from berdly in chapter one which u can find by asking him to let you be in his group project and in his response he canonically confirms that toriel was kris's partner for one of their group projects in the past i know its a small detail but i have a feeling that might be why susie knows toriel is kris's mother.
Edit:i also feel that i should mention that when berdly is bringing up toriel and kris's class project some time back but he brings it up in a mocking way not like a 4 or 5 year old getting help from their parent on presenting a project but like a teenager being forced to pick their own mother for a class project because they had no friends so lets say susie moved in recently(say 2-3 months) it would make sense for susie to know who toriel is as a teacher and as kris's mother (in summary susie could know who toriel is regardless of how recently she moved in because according to berdly she helped kris out on their class project in the recent past)
That's an interesting observation! While it's plausible, it could also feed further into the "Susie recently moved in" theory, because without her the class, Kris has no-one to be partners with. I genuinely completely missed that line from Berdley though, jeez...
@@kookiautumn1710 i mean monster kid seemed interested...but I'm pretty sure that was only because he didn't want to pair up with snowdrake
@@maverickdarkrath4780 I actually think Monster Kid is just nice to Kris, since he's also kind to Frisk even though he's never seen them before in Undertale. Of course, their 2 seperate games and Toby Fox keeps hamering on how these are diffrent characters, but I think Monster Kid is actually one of the nicer kids in class
Thank you for pointing out some of Ralsei’s complexities as a character here. He’s just as complicated as the rest of the cast is, even if we haven’t gotten that many hints about his character unlike the rest, and it’s a shame that a lot of people in the Deltarune fanbase will just flat out ignore the evidence that he has genuine struggles in favor of a “Ralsei is Evil” or “Ralsei is Asriel” narrative.
This was a great breakdown of things. In truth I never read into Queen this in depth, but I can agree with all the points you made. I appreciate that Deltarune has more room to explore the interactions/relationships between its characters, and videos like this help expound on that in all the best ways. Until now, I was confused and uncertain about the actions of Kris with the fountains, but it makes a lot of sense if they are trying to find some sort of escape and find their own ways of exploring their interests if Toriel doesn't really allow that at home. Keep up the fantastic work!
Thank you for the nice comment! It took me a long time to understand Queenie too, and I think part of the reason why is that she's explicitly written to be meme-y and generic, so it's hard to actually read into her as a person. So, instead, I took to reading into her role in the story, and instead of finding concrete things about Queenie I discovered a lot of mommy issues the lightners seem to have...
I think Toriel isn't explicitly banning or discouraging Kris' hobbies at home (other than occult, maybe, bc she's religious and all...), she just values the things Asriel is good at more than the things Kris is good at, and it implicitly discouraged Kris from persuing their interests the way Asriel did. In their dark world bedroom, we see the shelves are full of trophies, which I think implies that Kris wants to be as successful as Asriel but wasn't, either because they couldn't (not good at the same things as Asriel) or didn't know how (wasn't as encouriged to persue things they ARE good at).
When I say "Toriel facilitated them living in his shadow", I mean that she puts emphasis on Asriel more than she ever did on Kris. It's even implied that Kris is wearing Asriel's old clothes, and that they don't have much or any of their own (again, based on the dark world room, where the closet is full of all kinds of clothes and Kris can "wear whatever [they] want", contracted against what they usually wear, a green and yellow striped shirt, basically Asriel's trademark.)
@@kookiautumn1710 Thats fair. I think regarding Queen being "memey", I almost thing that was intentional. After chapter 1 and the reaction to Lancer, I would think Toby would put someone in for the community to explicitly meme on, hiding real meaning behind a supposed "joke" character. That being said, I'm now wondering if there is any deeper meaning to Lancer's relationship with the main characters; IE: Their interest in friendship, but the more I think about it, I feel like that only really applies to Susie and has probably already been explored ad nauseum.
@@huntarbates2814 I think Lancer's role, above all else, is to be the emotional core of the conflict. Both him and his father represent two sides of the same "all darkners" coin, where Spade King represents the negative, resentful, and tortured side of darkners, Lancer represents the friendly, loving, and fun side. That's just my take, though, and seeing as we might not be seeing as much of Lancer in later chapters, who knows if that idea will be proven or disproven.
The more I get into Deltarune, the more I think Asgore should of kept the kids.
MOOD. The only problem is he can hardly scrape enough money to take care of himself let alone another person so there's no winning here
leave krisp with uncle gaster from across the interdimentional street
I haven't seen anyone mention this, but on top of everything you said Kris is ADOPTED.
I don't think I need to explain why this would make Kris feel distanced from Toriel and the rest of his family.
No, there ARE no therapists
unless, of course, there are and they just don’t even realize that they need therapy
That would mean that she is quite literally a mother board
I think Susie might genuinely get along better with Toriel than Kris does, which is interesting in the case of Susie but /awful/ in the case of Kris. I'd be worried about it driving a wedge between them if Susie wasn't the person Kris seems to like most.
wait fuck I think I overthought this but suddenly I have a lot more I want to add
OKAY SO LIKE, I think the thing about people having a hard time getting past Goat Mom's External Goat Mom Aura and not seeing her flaws is honestly- I feel like there's a lot of people out there who don't have very good relationships with their moms or aren't able to spend time with their mom as much as they used to (for both tragic and nontragic reasons) and honestly even given just the surface level care Toriel seems to present towards people is enough to sort of just make them go 'my comfort character now' and thus they aren't able to really evaluate her all that objectively. Which, for the record, is totally fine, she's a fictional character.
But it's weird to me that Susie hits it off with her so /fast/. Susie has a lot of 'I tried to interact with someone once and it went bad and now they hate me' incidents if you read into the text enough and normally she's pretty guarded around people she doesn't know all that well? I mean there's definitely a level of respect between her and toriel, and that can be based on past incident, but then they become buddy buddy SUPER fast. And maybe some of that is just Susie's Natural Charisma but- but maybe...?
I think there's a lot more you can read into Susie's relationship with her mom with how she interacts with Toriel than how she interacts with queen, to be honest. It's still a tricky position for Kris either way, though- like, Toriel definitely cares about them a lot and wants to help, she keeps checking up on them with Alphys, but she can't quite get past that "It's fine. He's Normal." phase on her own? ...Additionally, I kind of wonder if she's picked up on the fact they've been Acting Strange, as Noelle puts it, or if she would think that it was an improvement over their normal state? I don't think Kris would react well to having their mom imply "Oh you've improved so much ever since a soul started controlling your actions!" even if there was no way for her to know that was the case.
Another thing I noticed with kris:
During the scene with queen and kris alone in the alleyway queen asks to “play that game again, just the two of us” now at first that moment didn’t really make sense considering queen should know that kris can’t play said game alone. However in that context it could be that playing the game again is a metaphor for kris and toriel now by their lonesome in the house. Kris now being forced to play despite not being able to
Isn't the arcade cabinet scaled down in that scene?
They were definitely "functioning" better as a family. In this case, Kris would be right beside Asriel as they all did some fun activity again. As though Kris is dependent on Asriel in order to actually function with their family. And now with Asriel off at college, those same "family activities" wouldn't be the same. But Toriel is either oblivious to this, or choosing not to acknowledge it. Just like how Queen is either oblivious or ignorant of the fact that Kris *literally* can't enjoy the activity they did earlier without someone to depend on. Gahhh!!! So many parallels...
(Sidenote: Now that I'm thinking about it, I kinda just rephrased your comment...)
ah yes, one universal mom for sans to "befreind"
I'm so happy someone finally mentioned Toriel! While I do like her it's always rubbed me the wrong way watching her interactions with Kris. I agree, I don't think she is a bad mother but it is alarming to see how little she actually tries to help him. Kris and Asriel's room is a great way to physically see Kris' place in the family, it's so barren and it makes me feel sad that Kris may not even know what he wants to decorate the room with. Wouldn't a good parent try to help the kid decorate the room the way the kid would want to? Toriel doesn't seem worried/bothered by the fact that Kris has nothing personal in there. While Asriel was still around he played with Kris using his stuff, Kris may not touch the stuff in their room because they don't feel like they're allowed to, because it's not theirs. Growing up I was in a very similar situation to Kris so I relate with them very deeply. I was over shadowed by my older sister who I had to share a room with and (while I do see this as more of my sister being a jerk) I wasn't allowed to put up posters or put up a lot of my own personal touches. In fact if I did my sister would take it down and our mom wouldn't do anything about it. I never felt good enough for my family so I never felt the need to try to be. I didn't study to get good grades, I did play an instrument but I never tried at it or practiced besides any of the basic stuff. Perhaps Kris feels the same way I did? Kris's situation isn't helped by the fact that we can tell the Kris relied heavily on Asriel. They went to their brother for the emotional comfort they couldn't get anywhere else and now that Asriel is gone, Kris probably doesn't understand what they can do for themselves. Kris probably feels betrayed by Asriel going off to live his own life, they don't feel they can turn to Toriel because she was never there emotionally for them before, and Toriel has separated Kris from Asgore so even if they could go to him for support Kris may feel they're not allowed to go to him. Thank you for this video, I really feel like I may have come to understand these characters better. Also, while I can't say if this is true or not, I read a Deltarune comic called Paper Trail and in it the artist shows what they think Susie's home life could be like. It shows Susie living with just her elderly grandmother who doesn't have the means to care for Susie, even to the point of scolding her when Susie says she's hungry. I thought it was an interesting direction to go in.
This is a really good and in-depth comment! I appreciate that you shared your personal anecdotes to back up what you were saying, and I hope your family situation is better than back then.
I completely agree with your ideas of how Kris feels. I think they tend to either go cold or lash out and have no in-between when it comes to responding to situations, and the events in chapter 1 forced them to change that, to find a new way to deal with people, and chapter 2 made them confront one facet of their current issues. I can't wait for future chapters, and the development Kris will go through!
I've heard of paper trail too, but it's not a comic I kept up with, sadly. That IS an interesting idea about Susie's home life, though
@@kookiautumn1710 Paper trail had concluded, and unfortunately the artist ended with a cliff hanger but would be very poetic if they didn't make a sequel. I hope they do. My home life has definitely gotten better thank you for asking. I can completely relate to the lashing out as a response to negative stimuli and I am excited to see where Toby Fox takes the chapters. Another thing I have in common with Kris was that because of my upbringing, I didn't really have a personality. I was just kinda there, unlike Kris I didn't get along with my sister so when she did leave for college I began to grow as a person. Unfortunately because I had no guidance from my parents and no role models (kinda like Kris) it wasn't in a good direction. It wasn't until I met my boyfriend (who is now my husband) that I didn't grow as a person. He thankfully help me grow in a positive direction, and I hope someone comes along to help Kris in the way I got help.
I think this is also a bit bad that Asriel and Kris were still sharing the same room. Sure, it could mean they are close as siblings, or could be because of the lack of rooms, but that also meant, no privacy for either of them. And no matter how close you are, I think they are stuff you want to just keep to yourself. Time where you just want to be alone. And if you share your room, then you can't be alone there. Because you never know when that person is going to come into your room.
Plus, Kris is in high school and Asriel is in college, they clearly are at the age where someone needs privacy a lot. Teenagers tends to be the one with identity crisis and need for self-reflection (or escaping reality which can be seen as Kris's little adventure in the dark world)
This is a fascinating analysis, we'll hopefuly get to see more of Toriel's character on chap 3
I wonder if Queen forgetting Ralsei is a metaphor for his parents actually forgetting him, or them being dead, so they're actually unable to be with or talk to him.
or having no parents in the first place
The entire section with Kris and Toriel really solidifies my theory that Toriel might get some sort of "negative development" in chapter 3, not in a way of her becoming abusive or shit like that, but she will completely miss the "moral lesson" of the story and become even *more* clingy simply because she doesn't want to accept that the world around her is changing and her child is *growing*.
During the anniversary stream, Toby made sure to tell us that Toriel loves Kris, their entire family does, that even if we might be worried that their side of the room is empty, their family genuinely loves them. I'm sure we will get some comforting moments showing that Kris will still need their mother's protection sometimes, but it will become too much and she simply won't understand *why*.
In Undertale, Toriel puts her loneliness and fears aside because she knows keeping Frisk trapped will only hurt them in the long run. She might end doing the exact opposite in Deltarune.
(I apologize for the INCREDIBLY long comment, but I had this whole train of thought in my head and just had to get it down in writing before I lost my whole understanding of everything)
It’s interesting to note how Toriel both succeeds and fails as a mother, and how it ties into what seems to arguably be the main theme of Deltarune at this point. It should be a mother’s job to ensure their child’s happiness, but from a much more narrow viewpoint it’s their one biggest job above all else to ensure their child’s safety. After all, self-preservation is humankind's (and I assume monsterkind's) most primal urge, and for parents that urge extends to their offspring.
As far as performing this specific job goes, Toriel is S-Tier, 10/10. She has exactly the instincts that a mother would need to protect her children, as shown by the measures she takes with Kris and Susie when her tires were slashed (having Susie stay over so she wouldn’t go outside with a potentially dangerous individual lurking about, having them all sleep in the same room, and staying awake herself after Kris and Susie are asleep until she knows they’re safe). This is definitely one of the biggest reasons why goat mom is commonly regarded as best mom.
But… being safe doesn’t necessarily equate to being happy. And this ties in really well to the theme about a lack of choice in Deltarune, and more specifically to the dilemma of safety vs freedom. This dilemma is something I’ve thought about with regards to real life and how things shift as one goes from living under their parents’ roof as a child (safety) to living on their own as an adult (freedom), and how important a balance of these two things in life is.
The dark world represents freedom, and all the lightners seem to enjoy being there because of it, since their lives in the light world involve safety at the expense of their freedom. But this begs the question: if you’re not willing to sacrifice your happiness for safety, then what are you willing to sacrifice for freedom? Like I said, a balance of these things is important, and it seems that the lightners edge close to the line of leaning too far towards freedom as a result of overcorrecting for usually leaning too far the other way. After all, they sacrifice safety as a result of getting in battles all the time.
This is particularly true for Kris, who deals with being controlled by the player and, if this theory is correct, also being restricted by Toriel. As a result, they are the one who ultimately goes a step further than everyone else and creates a dark fountain despite being previously warned about doing so. They may be frustrated with their lack of freedom, but is it really worth potentially sacrificing the safety of the world?
This can also apply to the player themself if they do the Snowgrave Route. They might just be doing it to see what happens, but they could also be doing it as a way to rebel against the game’s railroading nature and have more of a choice in what happens. Is having more agency in how things play out REALLY worth digging a path to an ending worse than the one the game’s been guiding you toward?
I’ve been mostly talking about the safety vs freedom theme since this video made me think about it more than I’ve ever done. But going back to the original topic at hand I guess I’ll say that Toriel ultimately leans too far towards safety. While her protective instincts are admirable, being a mother is more than just that, and showing both the good and bad side of things with her parenting while also having it tie into the arguably main theme of Deltarune is honestly just really impressive writing.
I really hope your theory with Toriel ends up holding up, though even if it doesn’t, I’m glad the safety/freedom dilemma is still demonstrated through Kris rebelling against the player’s control at the very least. Just wanted to leave this monstrously long comment since this video made me think about things in Deltarune more than I’ve done in a while, and I always hate keeping deep trains of thought like this bottled up in my head. Thanks for the video!
Thank you for the long comment! I honestly enjoy reading things like this, and I'm glad my video inspired you to think!
The safety vs freedom dillemma is something that is, arguably, tied to all the Dreemurrs, not just Kris. With Susie and Noelle, it's harder to pin down the theme (what with Susie already being somewhat free in Hometown, and Nolle's "dillemma" focusing on an extreme amount of control in her life), but with Kris, it seems like they've FOUND a balance with both safety and freedom (going to school and living a safe life by day and going on dark world adventures with friends by eve, that their mom doesn't know about but lets them do), but still aren't happy, and open a fountain.
In undertale, we see a similar thing happen with both Toriel and Asgore. Toriel seems to have chosen safety over freedom, by locking herself in the ruins and trying to prevent humans from leaving, but is ACTUALLY the most free character that we know. She has the authority and autonimy of a Queen and the life of a normal citizen, she has no duties to attend to other than what she decides to do herself, and she has no people who depend on her, and she's miserable. On the other extreme, we have Asgore, who seems to have chosen freedom above safety, vowing to kill every human that falls into the underground, but he's actually the least free character in the game. Not only does he seem to be locked to an even smaller location than Toriel is during any playthrough of undertale (we only ever see him in the throne room, even if we're told he often takes walks around the underground), but he's also brought the underground to a safe and uneventful stasis. Overpopulation, lack of sunlight, etc, are all issues that monster kind is facing but never solved, and none of these issues particularly effect safety, they just effect happiness. And, as the several neutral endings where Asgore commits suicide show us, Asgore is equally as miserable as Toriel is.
(I'd argue Chara fits here as well, with them losing their life trying to free the underground, and failing. Theirs would be a failure on both ends, losing safety AND freedom in one fell swoop, which is also what caused their parents to lose those things as well)
And most importantly, we have Flowey. He chooses freedom above all else, as many times as we can see, and it's literal. When he took Chara's body to the surface, he CHOSE not to fight back against the humans, despite Chara trying to fight them. As a reborn flower, he CHOSE not to tell anyone who he was as early as his very first reset. Even with the player around, he can go anywhere, do anything, and in the end, the only way to bring closure to his character, the only way to help Asriel, is to show him how to once again CHOOSE to be good, to break the barrier and help everyone, even with limitless freedom where he could've done anything.
It seems like Kris, like their older brother, is trying to have as much freedom as possible, at any cost. It would especially be interesting if this want is explored and contrasted against Toriel's need for safety, and possibly even Asgore's absence of both freedom AND safety in deltarune.
An added wrinkle to the robot face discussion, if the face is what Mrs. Holiday/Queen wants Noelle to be, it's interesting that she doesn't recognize her while she's wearing the disguise. It shows that Noelle (or perhaps Mrs Holiday) recognizes on some level that if Noelle were to become her ideal, that she would cease to be Noelle.
Also thank you for making me question if I have mommy issues. Good times.
Welp, after watching this video now I feel bad for the Noelle, Susie, and Kris even more.
Especially Berdly and Ralsei, how they're relationship with Queen reflects with they're mom is messed up.
I choose to interpret queen forgetting ralsei’s there as him not having parents at all, not having extremely neglectful ones. Both make some sense though
Yeah. I mean he said he's been waiting his WHOLE LIFE for Kris and Susie. Easy to imagine he just flat-out does not have parents
17:27
"The narrative doesn't seem to frame Toriel as at fault in any way.."
Well, to be honest... The way she treats Asgore is, for me, a clear way to show her as at fault.
Seeing Toriel and Asgore's interactions, I can't help but firmly pick Asgore's side. Torile just seems very mean to him, especially not letting him really interact with his own children. And they were genuenly happy together before their divorce.
Just seeing her treat Asgore, that is kind at heart, guilty about the things he did, and longing to AT LEAST be friends with Toriel, and with the fact that Asgore seems to be LITERALLY the Santa Clause of the Underground, giving happiness to children... it just irks me the wrong way.
Both in this game and in Undertale, where she didn't even want to be Asgore's friend, I didn't like Toriel very much in those moments
And heck, looking at some of the Neutral/Pacifist run dialogue he is literally willing to DIE as a King of Monsters, JUST to let a random kid go back home.
I've always wanted to give Goat Dad a hug way more than Goat Mom.
I agree! But you have to understand, that's not the narrative framing Toriel in a bad light, it's your own bias. Objectively, Asgore is the butt of the joke in the supermarket scene, and Toriel is just trying to leave. To us, that reads as Toriel being mean to Asgore, to someone else though, that may read as Asgore being invasive in some way (which IS an interpretatiom people have had of that scene, somehow.) Same goes for Undertale, Toriel doesn't have the players perspective, therefore she doesn't know just how self-sacraficial he was in what he did, all she saw was her children never returning, and I can't blame her for being pissed about that lmao (especially seeing as, in the Winter Clock Dialogue, by the end, the two of them seem to get along, at least on a surface level.)
Toriel is never framed as doing the wrong thing (for an example, look at the contrast between Susie's agressiom towards Kris at the beginning of chapter 1 vs her agression towards the monster kids outside of the bunker in chapter 2. The first is framed as bad, and scary, the second is framed as just, and even somewhat sweet), even when it seems like Kris is visibly uncomfortable with what she's doing (holding their hand while they walk to school, hugging them in the hall while they're in a rush), those moments are framed as positive, even though they're hurting Kris.
It's why I don't have my hopes up for chapter 3. Chapter 2 already sort of left me disappointed in different ways, but because of Toby's track record with Toriel and Asgore's characters and developments, I'm genuinely afraid there will be no proper development of them in Deltarune, either.
@@kookiautumn1710 Well, I at least have my hopes up.
I mean, in Undertale, Toriel and Asgore are just some monsters that Frisk met.
Yes, they acted parent-like to Frisk, but at the end of the day there is no connection. It didn't entirely make sense for their development to be that deep in Undertale.
But here, both of them are literally the main character's parents, whom they grew up with. And since it seems that Toriel will be a big part of Chapter 3, it makes sense that NOW is a good time to develop them.
@@leritykay8911 Fair enough! And, I hope you're right about Deltarune.
My point with Undertale is that all the other major characters GOT developed. Papyrus learned to appreciate himself without the recognition of the public, Undyne learned to talk through her issues and find common ground with her enemies, and Alphys learned that truth was important, and bending it for the sake of your own feelings is bad. Toriel and Asgore got no such thing. It SEEMS like Toriel learns to let go at first, but then in every single ending where she's alive, she goes out looking for Frisk. Asgore SEEMS to have a change of heart in your battle with him, but as the pacifist ending is a reset of a previously neutral timeline, his character development also isn't there. It's just kind of a bummer in my opinion, even though it makes sense, lore-wise.
@@kookiautumn1710 I think of it like this, even if it is a bit of a cruel thought:
Toriel and Asgore are boss monsters, and as such they live for a LOONG time. So that already could mean that their development is just... Slower. They have lived through so much already.
For characters like Papyrus, Alphys, Undyne or Metatton, they didn't have the same experience with the previous humans that fell.
But Toriel has already seen 6 other kids fall down, go through the ruins, and leave her behind. Why would this one be any different? Until the very end of True Pacifist, Frisk is no different than the other kids to Toriel. Why would she majorly change after their meeting?
@@leritykay8911 That's exactly what I mean, from a lore perspective, it makes sense.
But from a story perspective, it's kind if disappointing that two out of 6 of the main characters got less development than a miniboss (muffet, who started off as hating you over a lie she heard about you, then found out the truth, and even helped stop the fight between you and Asgore at the end of true pacifist)
I love how she calls Queen "Queenie" every time, like how King calls her "Queenie Beanie".
(*he, I'm a dude)
Yeah! It's exactly where I got the idea to call her that! Calling her "Queen" all the time feels way too impersonal haha
would love to see a theory about the shadow crystals being a evil mirror of the deltarune universe, seems like a cool concept witht he fact that greed overtook the best of spamton resulting in the downfall of his entire life and with jevil, maybe just wanted to feel like he actually belonged since court jesters were just made to be fools most of the time and ended up with the knowledge of his world being a fake. would be fun to dig into since we have berdley, who let fame and love take the best of him and turned him against his friends, and susie who seems like she doesn't feel like she belongs here.
Wait, excluding Kris, there are seven kids in his class that are unique to DR too, no ? If so, maybe each hidden boss could corespond to issue that one of the classmate have ? (As for Kris, either does they maybe have a piece in the Castle town, or their will be what you face after getting all of the other shards ??)
@@orianefaton1885 I personally believe that Spamton is supposed to tie in with Kris, if that theory is true.
For the Kris and Toriel part, she really treats them as a child when they're clearly a teen and would need to be recognised as this. There's her behaviour that shows it but I came to the realisation that there's also an important visual clue of this: they're still wearing a striped shirt while everyone else in the class let go of the strips. They're all not children anymore. But Kris is still wearing child's clothes.
Not JUST children's clothing, but what is heavily implied to have been Asriel's clothes. As their Dark World room has a wardrobe full of "all kinds of clothes", followed by "You could wear whatever you want", leads me to believe Kris might not have any clothes of their own, either due to no proper clothes being made for humans, or Toriel not seeing a reason to buy new clothes when Asriel's old ones are right there and fit Kris well enough.
@@kookiautumn1710 oh! I didn't think of that! But it fits very well Toriel's logic and could explain why Kris appearance in the Dark World is so different. Every Lightners we've seen in the Dark World so far seems to wear things that fits their personality and preferences, notably with the colors. So maybe Asriel colors are more like green and yellow while Kris would prefer blue and pink!
@@jimekas on that topic....maybe im just reading to deep into this and im completely insane but considering pink and blue are there colors which were commonly associated with male and female added to the fact Kris's normal clothing seem rather neutral ....I wonder if Kris wants to wear clothing that is usually associated with boys and girls like skirts or tank tops (not saying these clothing are gender exclusive anyone can wear whatever they want, there just commonly associated as boy or girl stuff, not trying to offend anyone just trying to make a crack theory but back to the point) they want to wear more expressive clothes, this is supposed by Kris finding interest in the dress the Addisons are selling and of course the closet with multiple clothing, currently Kris seems to go with they/them pronouns meaning there likely non binary or a similar identity, its likely they want to express themselves more but are stuck with the bland green shirts and black pants , which is why there dark worlds clothes are so colorful in contrast.....maybe im reading to deep into things and im just crazy ....but it something it think about i guess
@@maverickdarkrath4780 well this is a rather interesting possibility, I mean if all Kris ever had to wear was Asriel clothes (not saying it's the case, just a possibility) it's highly possible they'd like to try different type of clothes to express themselves and/or see what they would prefer. Also, I mostly talked about the colors of their Dark outfits but the kind of clothes they're all wearing is I think not to take lightly. There must be a reason why Kris is wearing a knight armor in the Dark World. I mean, I can pretty well guess the reason behind Susie, Noelle and Bredly's outfits but why a knight for Kris? It's something to discuss I think
@@jimekas maybe Kris admires what a knight represents and wished to be one. Seems like a common child fantasy to want to be a brave knight
I love that you brought to light Toriel's many flaws that most players of Undertale and Deltarune ignored. Plus you explained really well the reasons why what we know of Kris' behavior before we took control of them isn't just Kris being a trouble kid for no reason.
It's weird how the player, who just got into the picture, knows more about Kris' interests than their own mom. Toriel's favoritism for Asriel compared to Kris is evident from the start of the game, but Toriel probably just brushes off anything because in her eyes "they're both her children, she loves them the same" a mother's favorite phrase and often not totally true. She tries to treat Kris like there's no differences betwen them when there is many that Kris is aware of day by day; one being that Kris is the only human in town.
Kris is clearly trying to both stay quiet about their interest and trying to get her attention, tho often in a negative way. That's probably Kris' whole theme, trying to get her attention in any way, because they already tried fitting in (an example being that Kris used to wear fake horns just to be like their family) and it didn't work, BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT THE SAME and Toriel doesn't embrace Kris' identity, in fact she tries to hide it.
(i.e: Kris' wardrobe in the Dark World when interacted says "you can wear whatever you want", which should be obvious since most people dress however their want, but somehow it seems to be worth of remarking, as if Kris didn't dress however they like, instead probably how Asriel used to dress. ANOTHER EXAMPLE: The can of "Ice-E's Cool Boys Body Spray, Spray for the Boys, Flamin Hot Pizza Flavor" spray in the bathroom that no one uses but it's there probably not for Asriel but for Kris, knowing they don't identify as a boy, she still tries to impose her own thoughts on Kris. She at least respects Kris pronouns but she very clearly tries to erase Kris' sense of identity. Which is also shown by their room in Ralsei's Castle being just Asriel's side of the room flipped to be on Kris' side. Unlike Susie's room who very clearly reflects her personality, Kris' is just what they've been convinced they should be like: more like Asriel.)
Kris has internalized this very deeply so naturally their instinct is to run the completely opposite way and be as different to Asriel as possible, which is sad considering Asriel and Kris share interests like playing videogames and were in the same friendgroup. I understand why once Asriel left Kris felt super lonely and probably empty, because their "only opportunity of identity" left for college and left them alone with the person who's mostly responsible of their lack of freedom and identity, Toriel.
I wonder if we are going to get Asgore's thought on the matter too. And how his relationship with Kris maybe was. Like, I think there is no way he was perfect, nobody is... but somehow, I think that while Toriel was maybe the best parent for Asriel, maybe for Kris it could have been Asgore.
That if you gave Kris the choice, they would maybe prefers being with Asgore, even though he is less financially stable and would surely not get the custody.
Eample would be, did Asgore was the one who encouraged Kris's interest somehow ? In Undertale, he did bound with Chara because they both seemed to love gardening (Chara's knife being actually a dagger for gardening, surely a gift from Asgore).
I think Toriel's mentality is maybe the "I know what is best for you" kind as a parent, even when maybe, this isn't, you know, what is best for the kid, while Asgore would be more of the "sitting and giving you a pseudo-therapy session" type (at least, in my head)
@@orianefaton1885 oohh I like that thought, Asgore does seem like a super chill guy, that type of dad who would prefer his children to have a little fun even if it meant getting a bit dirty. Asgore does seem really alone and like he asks Toriel about Kris and Asriel in chapter 2, we also know he respects Kris' opinion on hugs so that's more attention to Kris preferences than Toriel already lol. And yeah he may have made a mistake in the past which would explain why Toriel is so cold to him, but I'm guessing that in Kris' eyes he's still their dad.
I hope future chapters explore Kris and Asgore's relationship.
I never realized Toriel had a drinking problem, and the link between that and Queen is pretty interesting...
About the Toriel stuff, it would be amazing if they adressed that Kris isn't given breakfast or dinner in either of the chapters. I know that's just for practical reasons, because it's a game and you don't want to waste the player's time, but it's still strange in-universe.
kris doesn't go bathroom so I think it doesn't have an in universe reason
@@abokabsa or they really need to shit and we prevent them from doing so. Alternatively, they’re starving, so they can’t produce enough waste products to use the toilet.
@@tridreamer7144 or they're just constantly pissing themselves throughout the game
@@abokabsa
Maybe they do it at night when the soul isnt in control
@EasyFixes Thanks for the strat
Ralsei's one was so sad... And yet he's still so postive, outgoing and kind. Ral really does deserve the world, I love him.
Alright wow, finished the video and there's so many good talking points!
Noelle - I think it's pretty obvious how Noelle's and Queen's relationships relates to her mother being an extreme helicopter parent, but I never put together that she would've become thay way from Dess going missing! The insight that Queen looking at Noelle's "strange and sad searches" relating to her mother keeping track of her browsing history was a good touch too.
Susie - Great idea that Queen could represent her parents being neglectful. It might even be as severe as with Aubrey's parents in Omori, where they divorced, dad left, and she's stuck with a mother who sits on the couch all day. She became quite the delinquent partially due to that. As for why Susie doesn't call her parents, I think it's just because she know they won't care if she doesn't come home that night anyways, or at least that the call wouldn't be needed.
Kris - Wow. This uh... gave a lot. All those funny scenes with Kris and Queen in the city now feel a lot darker. It doesn't really make sense that, despite Kris searching up so many different things they're interested in, besides their custom room Queen never really acknowledges any of that, thinking they're bland. It must really hurt Kris to hear those things, or at the very least they're not happy Queen says them. You make a really good point about Asgore too. It's implied Kris really loves Asgore, and of course they hate that their parents are divorced. The poor kid is suffering while Toriel doesn't make an effort to fix things. And yeah I can definitely see the soul thing being an allegory for self harm- Kris's lurching and crazed expression definitely support that. Really dark but, it could even tie into the allegory of them not being in control of their life in a less literal sense. I've heard that some people self-harm either to feel pain, the one thing they think they can feel when they're depressed, or to feel like they're in control of something, of at least when they're hurting themself, in a twisted form of rebellion.
Berdly - First off how dare you for hating on my boy Berdly smh. Seriously though I can get the disdain for him, but like, kinda feels like you're hating on a character meant to be annoying and obnoxious when you obviously know that's an important part of his character and that he starts to change that- it's like the whole point of his story. Anyways, mother stuff, yeah Berdly's is probably the second most obvious. Him being ignored by Queen and eventually controlled ties in pretty well with his need for validation, no doubt his parents neglect him and his mother might straight up despise having to take care of him.
Ralsei- I agree with a lot of your points here, it did always feel weird to me how little he was ever included by Queen until I realized it wasn't just played for laughs. I do think it stems less from him having neglectful parents, and more from him just not having parents, either cus they died/were separated from him or because darkner reasons he never had any.
So yeah a lot of good points all around! King's role definitely doesn't tie into this and I agree that he acts as a moral compass, somewhat similar to Sans in that he judges you for your actions. As for the secret bosses tying into Kris's story as foils and that you have to actively seek them out which might be a metaphor for facing your darkest thoughts in order to self improve yeah. Hell of a lot to talk about how they fit in narratively!
And as for Kris's relationship with his mother being addressed, I wouldn't be so pessimistic. Toby knows what he's doing with his characters and I doubt he'd write Toriel like this to keep her as a perfect mother, and give her no character arc in Ch3's dark world. Trust the dog. :)
it's clear that toriel's method of parenting is flawed, just like in undertale. but at the same time, she isn't really to blame and it's more like a bunch of misunderstandings, much like how toby fox handles characters like queen. the list of problems kris has is already quite long without us even knowing everything about them, and i feel like some of them can't be solved by her even if she knew. i can see things like the favouritism with asriel being resolved
When looking at Queen through this lense I feel like her complaining about how ungrateful the others kids are to Kris might tell us that Toriel vents her emotions to her kid(s). Considering this with the drinking thing and *especially* how has her fears move her to stop Frisk from leaving the ruins in UNDERTALE it shows that she might not always be the most emotionally mature and she makes that her kid's problem.
holy shit this is the best and most unqiue deltarune theory I've seen, most of the theories are about major lore implications and what not and those are great, but using sort of text analysis to flesh out character backstories is soooo good, thanks for this!!
also pleaseee drop the dark mirror theory
To the 'Susie moved just recently into hometown' theory: I actually think Susie lived at least a year in hometown because when her and Kris are talking on the couch, she mentiones the festival and how the town looks like a carnival or something like that. The point is that she must have been present at at least one festival to know that. (Or she just googled it).
Only one year is still pretty recent! Her confusion with the tradition also shows how she's new to a lot of hometown's quirkiness, probably!
@@kookiautumn1710 Yes, that's true. When someone says "recently" I just always think of the timespan of a month as the maximum and two days as a minimum but a year is still not that long but not too short either.
Noelle's "dream" helped her realize that she needs to stand up for herself against her mother. Ralsei helped Susie realize that being aggressive isn't the only way to live. The dark fountains create a symbolic figure so the LIghtners overcome their weak point. We can even see Susie's eyes after the first chapter!
So... why doesn't Kris show his eye? Why didn't they change? They probably need Asriel to be more social, but Ralsei, who is really familiar to Kris, doesn't help them. But Kris does become more social, because the soul controls him... but the soul is in the light world, as well... and Ralsei also knows about the soul...
You know what? Theorizing is hard, I'm just gonna wait for the full release, most secrets will get revealed then.
When you were mentioning that Susie lashed out at Queen for taking someone she cares about away at this part: 6:42
As well as the recently moved to hometown theory earlier, A thought came to my head, what if Susie's parent's went through a divorce?
And that caused her to have to leave her original home.
And even more to add to that, what if Susie either had a sibling, or more probable, perhaps a friend that she had to leave behind?
Like, Susie and her parents lived in another place, her parents separated, and her mom took her to hometown, maybe separating her from a friend or someone she cared about at her previous home.
That is speculation, but it just kinda came to me when you said that stuff.
And I'm pretty sure that her financial situation isn't good either, which is usually common if there is only one parent in the house, which kinda adds to that theory in a way?
Reason I say that is from both her design and dialogue, like, her outfit is a bit worn and torn, which is a bit of a giveaway for old clothes, so maybe she doesn't have any better or new clothing items.
And when Ralsei is showing Susie her room, she's kinda surprised by it, saying "My own room huh..." which makes me think that she might not have her own room, so, not a lot of money in her family
It's very possible! Personally, I see it as Susie having to leave behind her old life for a new one she doesn't want, and didn't have a say in choosing, but my interpretation is specifically very vague because we just don't know enough about Susie and her homelife. A lot of things about Susie are very mysterious, and I can't wait to see how it all gets revealed in the game!
forgot where this happens, but susie once damaged undyne's car and it was implied that she was younger when it happened (or maybe im misremembering lol)
iirc she wasnt said to be younger, it just happened in the arbitrarily distant past (which is to say it could be ten years ago or yesterday)
Monster kid talked about it.
Knowing most of the dark fountains are made by stabbing the ground (IDK about castletown with its pure fountain), and at least two of those times were on rugs or carpet, I'm gonna agree that those new dark fountains _are_ 50% darkness, 50% polyester, maybe with a cotton blend to boot. ;)
Okay but for real, excellent theory, and I think Ralsei has even more you could connect: The Butler outfit itself.
- This could be, with them not knowing how to treat him or what to do with him, so instead they made him essentially a servant in his own home (Cinderella style, serving his parents like how Flowey takes care of drunk Toriel/etc), being brought up thinking that he should accept and simply serve them as a servant not because it's kind to do so, but because it's what he was taught to do. Who he is.
- Similar but not implicitly connected to the that point up there, it could also reflect on how he was "Given a Job" to do by his parents, and doesn't stop to resist or question it, and it, for Ralsei, became his identity and everything he is.
Ralsei was put in the butler outfit, guess this is his role now. He didn't try to individually fight Queen, even when she had no cage to catch him, nor does the game pull the Soul over to him for a conflict like the Susie vs Lancer fight. He does not resist. Ralsei was given a role to fill and serve as, and well, guess that's his life now, until someone comes along to make him question it.
Ralsei was told the prophecy and to stop the Roaring/etc.
Guess that is his life now.
He never stops to think the heroes might resist or have other plans, because he was given a Task, Stop the Roaring, as the only one left (possibly a dramatic "on his parent's last request" type situation, I could see that later, or a "to prevent it from happening again, I'm going to make sure I do exactly what they asked" type thing.)
He was Assigned a Job by whoever was left, and he was going to carry it out.
In general I really like that reading of Queen whether it ends up being somewhat canon or not. Though, I'm afraid you might have a pretty good point about Ralsei likely not even applying to it though. Something I noticed as a stark contract between the Light World and the Dark Worlds is that (with Lancer as the only exception for whatever reason) in the Dark Worlds there's no parent-child relationships at all, while the Light World has the themes of family present literally around every corner. In the Dark Worlds, everyone seems to just exist on their own, and it makes sense considering we know they were supposed to have been "made from the Fountains". This logic likely applies to Ralsei as well, especially due to the text in his unused Manual (I know I know, "don't treat unused assets as 100% canon" yadda yadda yadda) reading "Dedicated to the unending pillar of darkness that gives my body form", which not only is another nail in the coffin to the awful Ralsei is a Lightner theory, but also further hints at the statement that all Darkners are made from their Fountains' darkness.
In this case, Ralsei never had any parents, and him being an extremely one-dimensional (sorry but that's the truth thus far, hope he gets more development soon) character revolving his entire existence around the Prophecy and the Three Heroes makes quite a lot of sense. It's not like his Dark World is populated by other Darkners than himself initially in which case he would at least have someone to learn from on how to interact with other sentient beings at all. His questioning of himself and what being Ralsei-like even means in this case comes from him finally realising that he doesn't really have too much of a personality. He pretty much outright states that he got used to being kind because he thought that was what being friends was about.
Thank you for the in-depth comment!
While the Darkners' are given *form* by the dark fountains, I don't think the fountains are what give them life. From King and Queen's interaction, we can see that they have history, despite both of their fountains being lethal to the other. Not only that, but Seam knows Queen and is shocked when he sees her in Castletown, and both Tasque Manager and Spamton speak ill of Jevil, as if they knew him shortly before he was imprisoned for being a danger to people. This leads me to believe Darkners exist as "ideas", or something similar, before their fountain is formed. When a fountain springs forth, it gives Darkners form, and allows them to directly affect the world around them, and most importantly, to meet and interact with lightners. This doesn't mean they didn't exist before the fountain is formed, and it's very likely they have internal logic and lives to live without being given forms. Like how Lancer recalls having three glasses of milk for dinner before, it's too specific for it to have a "darkners were all created with the fountain" explenation, imo. But, I don't want to get any more speculative about that since we don't know enough about their nature to conclude anything concrete.
And, yeah, Ralsei is on really shaky ground with this theory.
While I don't think Ralsei is one-dimensional, I see where you're coming from. He doesn't get a chance to really shine like Susie, Kris, Noelle, and even Berdley have, probably because he doesn't allow himself to take center stage because of what he thinks his purpose is. I genuinely want to see where his character goes from here, and I hope he gets a chance to realise he's allowed to be himself in every way, without anyone else telling him be that way.
@@kookiautumn1710 You have a really good point about the Darkners existing prior to the fountains, I seem to have forgotten about that.
My point about Ralsei being one-dimensional has the key phrase of "thus far", because I feel like there are hints left about in both chapters that he's a little more than just a kind fluffy boy. But... so far he's just been a kind fluffy boy. Personally I find it almost sickening that he's so fixated on the notion that Darkners are supposed to serve the Lightners (which doesn't seem to be a common view among the Darkners) that he's literally happy to be called your lackey. But that's just me I guess, and I sincerely hope he gets to shine a bit brighter in the future chapters... Maybe we'll finally get to learn what he and Kris were talking about in the Card Castle prison cell and during the ferris wheel scene :)
@@abcdef-ms9mb I have a little theory. Most likely, Ralsei was literally created by Asriel with only one purpose - to embody the Legend that he composed, because he saw the danger in the Dark Worlds and the possibility of the Roaring (this may all be a consequence of the very events associated with Dess' disappearance, but this is already part of my other theory). That is why Ralsei sees himself as just a "tool" that should help the Heroes to fulfill the Legend (You may wonder, "Why Susie is a part of the Legend composed by Asriel, if he didn't know her?" - most likely, he himself knew her even is she didn't, considering that he kept at home and didn't want to return to the library the book "How to Draw Dragons" with a purple dragon on the cover). So that is why Ralsei doesn't know what "being Ralsei" is - he considers himself as something like an NPC that just have a "guide" plot role.
14:39 as someone who has lived in a small town for most of my life: no, small towns often do NOT have therapists, which leads to. a Lot of issues with the people living in there, not being able to find ways to heal
Thank you thank you for doing this "theory video" that's (by your own admission) more of a literary analysis. I have been HUNGRY for people to talk abt themes and character motivation but it's all just "is spamton an Ally of the Queer Community/ gaster?"
I'm excited for you to make more work. I haven't ever enjoyed a Deltarune video this much, hands down
With this analysis and Deltarune's themes of escapism and control, it makes Berdly's actions and death in the Snowgrave route even more devastating. In the light world (real world) he can't do anything about Noelle's neglectful mother, he can do anything about his own mom purposely ignoring him, his decisions don't matter. But here? In this land of darkness? He's a cyber-knight wielding a halberd of energy and can fly and do magic! He, for once in his life, CAN do something when he sees his friend in danger. He can't speak out against the mayor of the town for scaring Noelle, he can't ask for help from his parents, but he CAN do his damndest to magically blast away the person abusing his friend in this fantasy world. And what does he get for standing his ground. An icy and lonely death. Love how Toby makes such lighthearted and beautiful games that have incredibly dark and terrifying concepts if you choose to look for them. It's amazing
Unrelated but if Kris is self-harming that would explain the knife scene at the beginning of chapter two PERFECTLY; it's a flashback to Toriel finding out- that's why she tells susie "she does this sometimes" holy fuck my mind is blown
It also shows Toriel's morbid leniancy of it. Instead of stepping in and stopping Kris, getting them help, etc, she just... tries to sweep it under the rug. She talks about it to Susie as if Kris is just doing nothing in the bathroom, which, from her hesitating to even mention it, we KNOW she knows more than she lets on. It's honestly really fucked up the more you think about it...
@@kookiautumn1710 Was watching one Andrew Cunningham's video on Kris & towards the end he mentioned that, while it seems out of character for Kris to create a dark fountain if you forced them to follow the snowgrave, perhaps it's merely the case that the audience collectively doesn't understand Kris enough. Taking everything you've said here their actions at the end of chapter 2 are making more & more sense to me...
I think now i understand better why Toriel doesn't care that Kris have a knife. I remember I used to think about her as cute mommy goat that tries to do best. I don't think she is bad, you can see that she is very sweet to Susie and that's what she needs, someone who care about her, but the relationship with Kris isn't healthy.
my own theory about how ralsei travels between dark worlds is he literally just walks. in the first game he said that the second dark fountain appeared on the horizon. the first fountain is the closet dark world. On my recent playthrough i noticed that the stone formations in the background of one room of the cliffs at the start are in fact giant pieces of chalk.
Lancer rode his bike from the game room dark world to the closet dark world to fight kris and susie, and then the gang goes from the closet to the old classroom. Ralsei just went to the computer lab dark world same way the gang went to the game room dark world.
the real question is why he doesnt turn to stone and why dont the game room and computer lab residents turn to stone in the closet dark world.
The answer to your question is provided in-game, though Ralsei words it weird. The "grand dark fountain", the one in Castletown (closet fountain), is made of "pure darkness", being able to sustain the form of any darkner. It's a reasonable thing to assume that Ralsei doesn't turn to stone because his origin is from said grand fountain, and the darkness making his form can "adapt", so to speak, to the darkness of any other fountain.
At least, that's what's been hinted at so far, but I may be wrong.
Seeing homestuck anywhere is an immediate attention grab, its like a jumpscare
If I had a nickel for every Deltarune analysis video that had Homestuck content in the middle of it, I’d have two nickels, which isn’t a lot, but it’s weird that it happened twice.
@@literallyn01imp0rtant didnt see where this was going but it was a pleasant surprise
I CANT ESCAPE HOMESTUCK FUCKIN HELP ME
@@ki_mi9867 why? It wouldnt be worth the struggle. After all...
You cant fight the homestuck
This video is my absolute favourite analysis/theory of deltarune out there.
you go in depth and are pretty unbiased (not liking berdly, yet having a very good and well thought out analysis of him) and you don't instantly go to it being all black and white, understanding someone can be a good person and have flaws that doesn't instantly make them evil or even a bad person (because god damn do deltarune fan theories often forget about moral complexity)
and you can easily connect the dots that are set up and not fully explained easily (again many deltarune theories forget that)
this was a very refreshing analysis to watch, to see someone really understand the characters from the fraction of what we know. good job!! keep it up!!
hmm the only character i would apply the black and white morality is asriel the guy is pure evil
@@joaquinjovane4226 not to sound rude but you missed the entire point of ut
Maybe Queen for Ralsei doesn't represent his actual mother, but rather the lighteners themselves, that, after having created and sprung life in the dark world, abandoned him to be alone in castle town, forgotten until Frisk and Susie showed up
^^^^
Frisk 🤨
"Frisk and Susie"
Undertraveler confirmed????
Lmao my bad
15:08 this does make sense, actually, as while the Grand Dark Fountain's world has no resemblance to anything that would be in a closet, the dark fountains in the unused classroom (card castle) are essentially made of the things in that room. The same goes for the fountain in the computer lab, being made using mostly things on computers. This is more than likely because while yes, the fountains in the unused classroom and computer lab MOSTLY darkness, the fountains and their denizens also contain the energy of the location they were created in. This is why darkners turn to stone if they "aren't compatible" (having energy that opposes the energy in the area). Ralsei can go anywhere because he is made of pure darkness (and also its shown its possible to go to a different dark world without leaving the first one in chapter 1, when we go to the card world from ralsei's dark world).
kool
"(as opposed to those OTHER dark fountains, which are made of 50% darkness 50% polyester)" sounds like something Toby would actually write, good job.
Now THIS is a good theory, shining multiple lights on a connection you thought you already had a good understanding of and expanding on it with well detailed points. I was so focused on Noelle's relationship with Queen I hadn't even bothered to look at everyone else too deeply. Great video! (My boy Berdly will win your heart, just you wait.)
Thank you for the nice comment! I always like to look at things that don't get enough of a spotlight so I'm glad I'm shifting other peoples' attention, too!
(Also, no, he won't, he's too painfully unfunny and draining to watch for me to ever like him as a character lmao)
In snowgrave, i admire that as soon as berdly saw noelle, probably his best and only friend, possibly being hurt by "Kris's" (our) actions, he immediately sqaures up to beat the shit out of kris. For that he has about banna% of my respect
P.S. if you don't get it Google the atomic mass of potassium
Queen even goes 'In A Minute Dear' when replying to Berdly's pleads to save him
Ralsei is literally an exaggerated middle child
edit: Thanks for the likes!