Near COLLISION shortly after takeoff. American and Southwest avoided collision at Phoenix. Real ATC
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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 30 ก.ค. 2024
- THIS VIDEO IS A RECONSTRUCTION OF THE FOLLOWING SITUATION IN FLIGHT:
07-AUG-2023. An American Airlines Boeing 737-800 (B738), registration N305NX, performing flight AAL1388 / AA1388 from Phoenix Sky Harbor International Airport, AZ (USA) to New York John F. Kennedy International Airport, NY (USA) after departure from runway 26 at Phoenix started the left turn via the BROAK ONE DEPARTURE route but the air traffic controllers thought that they were proceeding via the FORPE ONE DEPARTURE route. At the same time a Southwest Airlines Boeing 737-700 (B737), registration N406WN, flight SWA2286 / WN2286, was climbing out of the runway 25R on the south side of the airfield. As the result AAL1388 turned into the flight path of SWA2286 and the pilots of Southwest Boeing 737 started the left turn to avoid conflicting traffic.
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Timestamps:
00:00 Description of situation
00:17 Airplanes are taking off. Initial climb out of Phoenix
01:17 American 1388 started the left turn. Near collision. Southwest 2286 is avoiding
02:27 Clear of conflict. Airplanes is continuing their routes
03:14 The flight crew of American explained their actions to Departure controller
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THE VALUE OF THIS VIDEO:
THE MAIN VALUE IS EDUCATION. This reconstruction will be useful for actual or future air traffic controllers and pilots, people who plan to connect life with aviation, who like aviation. With help of this video reconstruction you’ll learn how to use radiotelephony rules, Aviation English language and general English language (for people whose native language is not English) in situation in flight, which was shown. THE MAIN REASON I DO THIS IS TO HELP PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND EVERY EMERGENCY SITUATION, EVERY WORD AND EVERY MOVE OF AIRCRAFT.
SOURCES OF MATERIAL, LICENSES AND PERMISSIONS:
Source of communications - www.liveatc.net/ (I have a permission (Letter) for commercial use of radio communications from LiveATC.net).
Map, aerial pictures (License (ODbL) ©OpenStreetMap -www.openstreetmap.org/copyrig...) Permission for commercial use, royalty-free use.
Radar screen (In new versions of videos) - Made by author.
Text version of communication - Made by Author.
Video editing - Made by author.
HOW I DO VIDEOS:
1) I monitor media, airspace, looking for any non-standard, emergency and interesting situation.
2) I find communications of ATC unit for the period of time I need.
3) I take only phrases between air traffic controller and selected flight.
4) I find a flight path of selected aircraft.
5) I make an animation (early couple of videos don’t have animation) of flight path and aircraft, where the aircraft goes on his route.
6) When I edit video I put phrases of communications to specific points in video (in tandem with animation).
7) Together with my comments (voice and text) I edit and make a reconstruction of emergency, non-standard and interesting situation in flight.
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Im going to try the "im done with it" line next time I argue with the wife.
🤣🤣🤣
Exactly....
I tried that all the time when I was married, it never worked. 🤣
😂@@blastfromthepast1
@@blastfromthepast1 you must have been doing it wrong.
this is why local controllers still need to be verifying the first RNAV points or assigned headings on departure when doing takeoff clearances. this is EXACTLY why that process was created.
For sure, American 1388's takeoff clearance should have read RNAV to $$$ cleared for takeoff rwy 26 and that would have caught it.
ATC used to have us verify our first departure waypoint with the takeoff clearance. Most facilities have stopped the practice; this makes me wonder why.
Some airports still does that, I dont know why is mandatory, it should be for the controller to read: "Cleare for take off via XXX departure.."
Exactly what I was thinking.
LAX still does it
They are supposed to if departing both runways at the same time.
Yes. They HAVE to if they have parallel departures. Controllers fault for not doing that.
This might turn out to be partially the controllers fault. FAA Order 7110.65 dictates: "When conducting simultaneous parallel runway departures utilizing RNAV SIDs, advise aircraft of the initial fix/waypoint on the RNAV route...PHRASEOLOGY-RNAV to (fix/waypoint), RUNWAY (number), CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF. " Paragraph 5-8-2(d)
Might. We need to hear the prior instructions given.
As a non-pilot still grounded in common sense, WHY have 2 planes on parallel runways take off at SAME TIME?!? A minute or three difference between the two would prevent this problem!
@@brmam1385because it’s cool
@@brmam1385 The simple answer is volume of operations. One takeoff at a time with a 2 minute gap equals only 30 departures per hour. Some busy airports might be doing 120 departures per hour.
Hard to say who was in the wrong without hearing the prior instructions.
If pilot messes up it’s “I have a number for you”. If ATC messes up it’s “I’m done with it” 🤷♂️
I thought exactly the same thing.
What else could the ATC do? The controller was distinct. Life goes on.
To be fair that was the departure controller, they never gave clearance for that waypoint, they just had to clean up the mess
If they just staggered the takeoff departures just a little it would solve all this. It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to see when they cleared both aircraft for takeoff at exactly the same time there could be an issue.
There is NO way you know who was at fault. You need a number to call.
the ONE time PHX tries a parallel takeoff
Lol that was good
LMAOO true because I've never seen it happen
ATIS only said simultaneous appch in use...
No advisory regarding simultaneous departure🤔🤔.... 😅😅
For emergency dispatching 'I'm done with that' not only meant we were busy, but that someone was going to pull the tapes and the hammer was going to come down on someone (if it was a really big screw up, which didn't happen often).
I used to tell people that when I lived in Flower Mound, Texas, (Early 1990s), my house was directly beneath DFW Runways 35 and 36. Now that Google shows it all, you can literally lay a ruler on a map, and my house was dead center, but 13 miles North.
I was in my backyard pool one day, making leisurely backstrokes when I suddenly heard the sounds of 727 engines in full distress (I worked in Airfrieght for years, and I know very well the sounds of 727, DC-10, MD-11, and 747 engines). I opened my eyes, and there was a plane on the 35 takeoff that was turning West, and a 2nd jet that was on the 36, clearly trying to go East.
They were so perfectly timed (in a VERY bad way), that when I opened m eyes, the two aircraft made a perfect X, directly above me. If they had hit, I would never have made it out of my pool in time, to escape the crashing parts.
Just after takeoff or go-around on parallel runways is the scariest time to have a traffic conflict, because TCAS can't tell a plane to turn, it can't tell the lower plane to level off too close to the ground, and the higher plane can't climb any faster than they already are just after takeoff or go-around.
Bien vu
Indeed, exactly.
From the simulation they were above 1100' AGL so TCAS definitely should have been giving an RA to both airplanes.
@@lagentdunetnot a lot of room to move or directions to go, and the collision reporting system doesn’t work on the runway for a lot of reasons, one of which is the planes are expected to be close on the runway.
Also keep note that South Mountain which has numerous tall communication towers is directly south west of Sky Harbor. Both planes essentially looped around the mountain. So that’s sketchy to have to make a sudden left that early into the air for Southwest taking off from the southern side.
I am a railroad dispatcher and when we're curt with someone and the conversation is over we have "Copy, Control out" 😂
Never heard that. Are you European or Canadian?
Airports such as ATL and others Controllers will say ( N1234) confirm your first departure waypoint.
N1234: first waypoint “Fixxx”
Tower: N1234 RNAV “Fixxx” cleared for takeoff Rwy…
This is why we should verify first fix and/or dep procedure when take off clearance is issued.
I’m guessing that’s why lax tower issues/(confirms) the first fix on takeoff clearance
Or even just "runway heading after departure" and let the departure controller give them their left turn once they can see they are clear of traffic. Just trusting that both planes will do what they are supposed to do seems unnecessarily risky.
"Fedex XXXX, RNAV to Cheto, cleared for takeoff runway 18R"
They do exactly what you've said each time. At least in most places....
Yes, They actually HAVE to do this if they are conducting parallel departures . Straight from the 7110.65
If you operate primarily from airports with this requirement, it may seem commonplace, but last year out of some 250 flights, I received this confirmation only twice.
We need to hear what went on before. If AA was initially issued 25R the BROAK was correct. If the Rwy changed or AA requested rge change the FORPE should have been issued.
Would be intreasting to go back and follow that AAL flight from delievery to take off and see where the error occured.
That frequency is unavailable. I tried to find the clearance.
@@YouCanSeeATC Unavailable to who?
@@justaguy427 The frequency is unavailabel on LiveATC
@@YouCanSeeATC Clearances aren't picked up over voice anyway. Done digitally at major airports.
That controller is affectionally known in KPHX as, "Mr. Happy."
PHX likes to cross their departures to the other side and I could see this happening. 25R is the preferred departure runway, but some heavy departures might ask for 26, which may have been the case for AA1388 going all the way to JFK. We don’t know what AA was filed for vs what was given in their digital clearance. I don’t trust flight aware to be correct either. So it could be either the AA pilots not having the correct SID, or the tower controller not verifying. Note that there are two different tower frequencies we are hearing. PHX has a north and south tower. Tower controllers should always read the first RNAV fix in their takeoff clearance as well. The departure controller had nothing to do with the mistake. He was rightfully so stressed out. His don’t with it comment was likely just to calm his nerves.
^this. PHX normally pushes departures to the south side in the evening on 25R and arrivals to 26 on the N side. The American wasn't a heavy either. Swiss cheese model from clearance to tower to departure.
You’re saying Phx towers have 2 seperate frequencies monitoring/talking to parelel departing aircraft AT THE SAME TIME?!? There goes any plan of mine to fly out of Phx in the future, because “it’s cheaper.” It’s also demonstrably deadlier!
@@brmam1385dozens of airports operate on multiple frequencies for tower for different parallel runways. This is completely normal as it would be too busy for one single frequency.
This was indeed another very close call. Thank you very much for picking it up!👍 Hopefully the Good Luck is not running out.
Crazy stuff
WOW !!!! that was close !!!
“I’m done with it”
Exactly the type of attitude we don’t need from ATC.
F-ck it, we'll do it live. I'll navigate it, and we'll do it live! F-ckin' thing SUCKS.
@@barryo5158 Yes and no. You have to be able to work past near-misses. Hashing it over on frequency when it's not his fault is not going to help him move on and keep working, especially when you're working a busy departure push.
Not the place and time to take or lay fault.
I said "attitude". @@amaurea3000
Denver , DFW still make you confirm the first fix on all RVAV departures
Being a former PHX resident as soon as I saw the graphic of the American and SWA I knew this was Sky Harbor going west.
Saw this on the news, scary! What's even scarier is verifying my family and I were on that Southwest flight.
😮
American likely had a departure change on their PDC and missed it during preflight.....Also the tower controller just cleared them for takeoff without saying the first fix on the SID. If he had said "RNAV WIVLA, RWY 26 cleared for takeoff", which is the first fix on the FORPE departure, the pilots should have realized they had the wrong departure programmed. Isn't the first time this has happened and honestly, won't be the last either.....
When it changes they usually communicate it to them on ground prior to taxi with a readback.
@@justaguy427not if the change was issued with their PDC.
Wow, so many weird commenters here....
1) There are TWO tower controllers. You can clearly hear two different voices.
2) It seems those two controllers do not coordinate departures, as to avoid simultaneous takeoffs. This is bad.
3) The American went in an unexpected direction after takeoff. This is bad.
4) Tower handling American should check every filed plan for American so that everyone knows what was Tower and what was American (dispatch) responsibility.
5) Departure had nothing to do with any of this. Stop nagging on Departure. Listen to the tapes - Tower hands off planes to Departure AFTER takeoff so you guys being mean to Departure are misinformed. Educate yourself.
Indeed, exactly.
According to FlightAware, AAL1388 was filed in the system to depart using the FORPE1 departure, which means this is likely pilot error. It is possible that the clearance delivery read the pilots the wrong departure, but since PHX has PDC, it's likely the pilots got the clearance electronically so an ATC error seems less likely. AAL1388 had been assigned the BROAK1 the day before this incident, as well as other times in the past, so it's likely that expectation bias played a role here.
It could also be a late TMU reroute which would update in FlightAware but if AAL already had their clearance, they may not have gotten the updated one.
You could be right.... but their departure waypoints are displayed right in front of them....Maybe they were originally going to depart from 25R or L and got switched to 26. We may never know....
The likelihood that the pilots made the error is very slim. These clearances are delivered electronically and typos are hard to do, unless there was a late change from TMU you or ATC. True data link, which is something that something that ATC has been waiting on for over 30 years, would help eliminate this. Both the controller's display and the aircraft displays would show the same thing.
Never flown into PHX but most others will give you cleared for take off 22L rnav “FORDZ” or 12L runway heading. Does PHX not do this ?
You realize that what flightaware shoes is what is filed, which is not the clearance that is received. They are separate and the flightaware one is not updated
Well for simultaneous departure I would rather assign initial divergent headings instead on relying on rnp procedures, or else delete all southbound Sids from the right runway…
On parallel departures, isn’t atc supposed to say Rnav (insert fix ) or direct (insert nav aid)?
I'm an amateur, but I think the heat of the situation justifies "you go that way and the other guy go the other way" so you can solve the immediate conflict, then clear it up as soon as things were stable.
Both incorrect… or at the very least atc tells both flights if the simultaneous departures even though atis probably said that
The rules are more complicated than that, and some of those rules rely on information not presented here, but most likely yes that should have been stated.
correct "RNAV to XXXX, clear take off RWY XX"
@@mijo3642 That is not always said on parallel departures, and if you're gonna quote phraseology get it right "RNAV to [FIX], Rwy [RWY] cleared for takeoff".
The AAL pilot saying “I’m done with it” & you could hear the near miss in his voice! What the hell?
Im guessing phoenix isn’t supposed to issue the first waypoint fix of rnav departures on takeoff clearance? I thought this was standard across the US and not just some airports.
It is in every place I fly out of....
They are supposed to if departing both runways. They don’t normally have simultaneous departures so it’s not normally needed.
They HAVE to do this for parallel departures. Tower controllers fault for not doing it
They normally do "RNAV to XXXX clear take off rwy XX". Especially with parallel rwys like LAX, SFO, PHX, BOS etc.
We are just one more incident away from two commercial airplanes colliding on the runway or a mid air. These incidents are exponentially increasing. We have new pilots and new ATC. Pilots out there please remain vigilant and verify ATC instructions. ATC out there please get your head in the game and increase your awareness especially when you have dual runway operations. I am of the opinion that that ATC should have a sterile cockpit rule like pilots where if they are plugged in and operating then no extraneous conversation, no cell phone usage, no distractions whatsoever. The FAA is going to get involved and start making more rules and regulations if the pilot and ATC community doesn't get their act together!
The takeoff clearance for American was wrong. They should have been told “rnav …(fix name) cleared for takeoff Rwy 26”. That would have stopped it right there. Simultaneously departing off 26 and 25R are rare. Normally it’s only 25R.
But the thing is...planes taking off 26 almost always turn right 🤔 I don't remember if it there was weather to the northeast that day
This has potential
At the rate these close calls are happening, we will have a midair soon. Scary stuff. The system is broke!
Not only the aviation one :)
The system is not broke. It works remarkably well. The government just needs to give the FAA the funding to hire more controllers and accelerate the work on full GPS navigation. Lack of controllers is the problem.
@hgbugalou We can't waste money on saving lives in the sky via the FAA. Ukraine needs us to send more money and the illegals crossing the southern border need more money to be bused, housed, and fed on our dime. Get your priorities straight...sarc
@@carbonking53 your main problems are police, mass shootings and drug, not Ukraine 😅
@@carbonking53 Ehh... We aren't sending Ukraine cash, we are sending them weapons and in turn upgrading/refreshing ours at home. That seems like a good thing. Russia isn't our friend and never has been; they want to see the US weak so they can dominate. As far as the border goes, I am pretty sure a country with our GDP could handle both the FAA and it at the same time if we didn't allow rich people and politicians brainwash us with the red vs blue crap to the point we never get anything done.
These simultaneous take offs on parallel runways are asking for trouble. Can't they even delay one of them for 30 secs? That would eliminate conflict issues on takeoff. I guess the string of pearls beats caution every time.
Pilots get a number to call. ATC when they almost kill 350 people gets to say, "I'm done with it."
He didn't. Departure saved 350 people from a clearance error by either AAL or ground or clearance.
He saved hundreds of lives and you idiots are in here mad at him for it.
I wonder who screwed up. Clearance delivery or AAL1388?
That Phoenix Departure guy. No nonsense, get it done, move along. Like it.
Scary.
He's more than no nonsense, he sounds emotional, like he's angry at a child. Not great for a professional ATC.
@@ambiguatehe’s angry cause the tower didnt check the departure routes and handed him a deal lmao
Sounds like a typical northeast controller…
That departure controller needs an attitude adjustment
For real. I know the guy is stressed over what just happened, but he
needs to take it down a notch or three.
@@kamikaze6363"but SHE needs..."
@@AndrewBlacker-wr2ve 😆
@@muzzcovw7674 Just simple grammar.
I'm thinking it went past you too.
Sucks to be a bonehead.
Seems a pretty normal response to me given he nearly saw two passenger airliners collide.
Me thinks someone missed the revised segment in the PDC...
Ok boys and girls, I have my flight instructor hat on, “Look out the damn window before you roll into ANY turn”.
You don’t fly for an airline right? Are we supposed to do procedure turns before following a departures? And what about imc conditions? Can’t follow the damn sid, can’t see out of the window….
@@SC-dp1gv guess 10,000 hours most of it airline doesn’t qualify me. I’m not saying make a PT, I am sayin don’t just go on assumptions.
@@gregorypitts8093 Impressive. Are you doing the Monty Python strut? Do you wear your headset around the house?
@@RLTtizME ok don’t look out window
@@gregorypitts8093 Do you sit on the can with your headset on? You are a frisky little Flyboy.
Here go … again!
AAL1388 filed for FORPE1; if AAL1388 filed for BROAK1, would they have been given 25R instead of 26?
No RNAV fix off the runway? Might have captured the error.
The tower should Never give that answer. The reason to do paperwork is to figure out what almost killed hundreds of people so it doesn't happen again. If I was the pilot I would report this myself if the tower was only interested in getting angry at the pilot and cover him own but, he should have know the departure route. But regardless the problem needs to be investigated.
3:14 American was expecting a phone number...
3:32 min. yes.... it is the equivalent of "it wasn't me, it was broken when i got it"
At 2:04 you can hear one of the pilots go "Whoo!"
That was a tracon controller.
ATC told AA to make the left turn.
“I’m done with it” yet the controller was shitty towards the American pilots. It’s always small time Phoenix with the issues.
That controller was UNHAPPY!
His nickname is Mr. Happy.
I don't understand why everyone assumes the departure controller messed up and is somehow deflecting his guilt by being angry. This is in no way his error. This was likely pilot error flying the wrong departure instead of the one they were cleared to fly. Has nothing to do with the departure controller. He's pissed because they almost took out the SW jet. When you fly, controllers understandably get pissed when you make mistakes because their job is stressful as hell trying to keep everyone alive, so to me his reaction is totally understandable.
He should have given them a heading right away if it didn’t look right instead of trying to figure out what went wrong.
he will have to do paperwork thanks to the AA crew NOT following their clearance, same as the taxying in JFK, and it could have been an accident on his watch
@@mijo3642 How do you know they were not?? They could have been cleared on the BROAKE1 and not the forpe. That's why controllers are supposed to verify pilot's first fix when conducting paralel departures. RNAV to XXXXX runway 25R cleared for takeoff. Wonder who's fault it was
@@User-jj9it I just said all that ... learn to read eh?
@@mijo3642 No, you said that it was the Americans fault for not following directions lmao
The Wolf:
Get it straight, gentlemen: I'm not here to say please, I'm here to tell you what to do. And if self-preservation is an instinct that you possess, you'd better do it and do it quick. If my help's not appreciated, lots of luck, gentlemen. If I'm curt with you, it's because time is a factor here. I think fast, I talk fast, and I need you guys to act fast if you want to get out of this. So, pretty please, with sugar on top. I’m done with it.
Always love me some PF!
The controllers attitude is defined in Websters as someone who possibly Effed up and tries using anger to cover it up...
Could have been the clearance controllers fault not issuing a new clearance, could have been the tower controller who didn’t issue the new clearance. The departure controller obviously thought this guy was flying a different clearance because he asked him several times to verify he was on the Force departure. For all we know the American pilots could be lying, you don’t have all the facts. The controller is expecting one thing and sees something else and watches what could be a catastrophic loss of life unfolding in front of his eyes.
@@chrisstromberg6527 this is true. However he's supposed to be a professional. Professionals use the proper tone no matter what the situation. An urgent situation is the worst time to let your emotions get the best of you
His tone certainly wasn't great, but I doubt very much that this was his fault. He wouldn't be the one giving the clearances.
His tone was fine and he handled it right to correct “somebodies” screw up...Im a retired controller, when your voice inflection changes ...that gets the pilots attention, yes my emotion sometimes changed my inflection.
@@yankeeairpirate1799 It's his tone at the end that we're talking about. After the situation was resolved.
WAY too close no matter who is at fault. It proves that automation has eliminated the use of the wind screen! Crews have forgotten day one in a C172...see and avoid!!!
Why can’t they stagger parallel runway simultaneous take offs by just a few seconds and reduce the chances of this happening??
Hey, could you tower boys stop it? Thanks boo
TCAS not working ?
They get their departure and waypoints before even starting the engines. How did a 1st officer/calf/ and ground cont all mess up?
I believe it’s called a near miss.
Cocky air traffic controller and more than likely it was his fault.
Both plans released at the same time - not ideal
Controllers deserve a 45% pay increase not the people that screw on car doors😂
100% *air* traffic controller errors -- there were multiple. At KPHX they have a dedicated clearance delivery system in operation during the time of the incident. They were the ones who cleared the flight plans of both, which included the BROAK ONE for AAL1388. Both Tower and Departure *failed* to confirm the Departure route assigned to AAL1388, and when AAL1388 corrected Departure's mistake, Departure incorrectly handled the situation, which further exacerbated the incident.
Added to that, the Departure controller's gruff demeanor and refusal to address what happened, hints that the controller knew that he himself was in error. The FAA needs to step in here on this one.
If I were the captain of AAL1388, I'd file a formal report and complaint regarding this incident -- especially against the Departure controller. At the very least, the controller should be pulled from the rotation for a few weeks.
Lastly, this was not a near collision incident. The TCAS on the planes did not issue an Resolution Advisory (RA - a mandatory reportable event), which meant that a collision was not eminent. Instead, SWA most likely received a Traffic Advisory (TA), and performed a correction to stay clear of AAL.
I was wondering about his demeanor. I'm no pro at this, but I could understand "I just gotta get things stable then we'll get people to come back later and figure out what went wrong". In any event, I'm surprised that any takeoff from 26 would allow you to turn left -- just seems like an invitation for something to go wrong.
Wrong about ATC, they use PDC at PHX and neither local or departure is required to "verify" because the verification is automated and also printed on the strip. And departures especially not responsible at that point. Likely there was a TMU reroute that came in late after American received their clearance and didn't have a FRC note so American never got it. Controller error but not tower and not departure. (I was an FAA controller for 31 years).
could you please explain what the BROAK ONE is?
@@1ytcommenterIt’s a specific path you’re supposed to follow as you take off and leave the area. It is comprised of navigation points and altitudes. So instead of ATC having to tell pilots every turn and altitude, the pilots simply fly the pre-designated departure path.
They were assigned the FORPE1. The pilots messed up.
AAL1388, 7 Aug 2023: FORPE1 MAXXO KA33W KA36Y KK39A KK42E SGF KK48K KI51M GIIBS HIDON G42 PSYKO Q71 PSB J49 MAGIO J70 LVZ LENDY8
I wish captains had the authority to tell ATC: "stby to copy a number I will give you! "
Why wouldn't flights on parallel runways have the takeoff times spread out by at least a minute............seems like an accident waiting to happen
When ATC f@rkup they BLAME some1 else but when the Pilot does messed up I have a Numbers for U to copy. IT'S WASN'T ME BY SHAGGY!!!ATC work with pilot hand in hand, the Pilot should say to ATC I have number 4U to copy. "I'M DONE WITH IT"!!!
“I’m done with it” sounds like someone who is guilty
Departure wouldn't have given them the clearance, so I don't see how it could be his fault.
You have no idea what you're talking about
It was a joke. Based on his attitude.
Sounds to me more like he has the same question(s) and he's ending the conversation before saying something he shouldn't.
@@Dfknascar24 It could also mean (I'm an amateur so I could be wrong) "well, it's in the past. The situation is stable, and It'll be someone else's job later to figure out what went wrong, but for the time being, we have to move focus to the next flights in the queue."
These just keep happening more and more, we are overdue for a major incident and unfortunately loss of life, Tombstone mentality is the code they live by.
are they happening more than before? or does it SEEM like its happening more?
@@soccerguy2433 Well considering the FAA said it has seen a 25% increase in the last 10 years I would say it does not just SEEM like it…… 300 incidents just in the last 12 months, what do you think.
Completely agree. In particular, the American practice of clearing aircraft to land on runways and then issuing takeoff clearances to aircraft ON THE SAME RUNWAY is going to result in another Tenerife sooner or later.
Sounds like someone is going to be sweating after a clearance review
I'm done with it? Ummm, no you're not.
First off that was scary to listen to. Second, wow, the controlled seemed like a total jerk after the fact. Next time ATC gives a pilot a number, they should just say, "I'm done with it."
The controller has other planes to work. He's done with it because he still has things to do. If AAL or SWA choose to call later, they won't be talking to him regardless, they'll be talking to the supervisor. The controller will file a safety report and possibly get a tape review if QC decides he did something wrong. (And at least from this recording, he didn't. The error occurred between AAL and either ground or clearance.)
So yeah, he's done with it. And he handled this like a pro.
Wtf is going on at sky harbor
I don't suppose anyone actually still looks outside the cockpit to make sure the turn is clear before turning?
I always did like the airports that want you to confirm the first RNAV fix on your departure in your takeoff clearance.
That would have possibly fixed this before it happened.
Airline pilots should be required to have 20 hours a year as PIC of a single engine with no glass cockpit. My son is an airline pilot who flys an Aeronca with no electrical system several times a month. IT MAKES HIM A SAFER AND BETTER PILOT. These guys who grew up on glass are going to kill a lot of people.
No possible pilot deviation call?
To who? The American pilot confirmed the departure they were "meant" to fly. Not withstanding this, they were less than a mile apart. The departure controller was on his game here. This should not be a possible pilot deviation, but more of an NTSB investigation.
That's the "someone else will deal with it" part of what the controller said.
Our lives, in their hands, every single time. We sure are a trusting bunch aren't we? Ya, ya, ya, I know that driving my car to work is far more dangerous.
Would TCAS had altered both aircrews? Thanks
No. TCAS is unable to work at such low altitude and TCAS also cannot command a turn, only climb and sink.
@@NicolaW72 Thank you. Again technology doesn't always = safety, as often is misleadingly advertised.
TCAS can't tell the lower plane to level off too close to the ground, and the higher plane can't climb any faster than they already are just after takeoff or go-around. Assuming it's even turned ON at this point, it is usually disabled (and on short final landing) for precisely this reason. Might even automatically disable itself at low altitudes for all I know.
@@byronharano2391 Indeed, exactly.
@@xheralt Limitations of technology and an over reliance on electronics for safe flight. Our aircrews awareness is the primary link in safe flight. Thank you 😊
TCAS?????
Not available below 1000 feet and and not able to command a turn.
why do I even file a flight plan? doesn't their computer system show them what departure i'm doing? Does it visually display them?
Yes. But it’s more complicated than that.
What a failure on ATC side of things. See conflict, instead of reacting, making sure it's up to the crews to provide separation. Yuck!
Why does tower handoff before the start of the turn? Standard practice in many non US operating procedures.
I’m done with it.
where's the POSSIBLE PILOT DEVIATION, ADVISE YOU CONTACT (facility) AT (telephone number - standard call i was waiting at the end? controller sounds pissed off at the end!
It's ICAO standard. Announce your SID and altitude on initial contact with departure. Pilots get lazy flying domestic.
Ok buddy does this look like europe to you? this is the usa. FAA rules.
@@User-jj9iteven in the USA, you should verify the SID upon contact with departure.
@@saxmanb777 No it's not. ATC has it on their radar
What is standard is to say your heading on departure if you are given one for departure. Not for a sid, you don't have to
@@User-jj9it might want to brush up on your procedures a little bit then. On initial contact, read back current altitude, climbing via on the yyyyy7 departure. I’ll even give you a link. www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2014/mar/nbaa-pilot-briefing-climb-via-descend-via-speed-adjustments-1.01-20140220.pdf
Too close
When the local controller simultaneously shoot two pieces of metal down parallel runways at the same time.... it's paramount and absolutely essential that they know exactly where these two occupied warm bloodied body missiles are headed to end up in a finite period of time.
Just saying..... 👨🏽✈️✈🌍👺🥇
🤓
I'm not sure why they didn't tell both pilots about the simultaneous departures. The American pilots would have had a chance to realise that turning left couldn't be the right departure if they had known there was another plane taking off on their left.
@@thomasdalton1508 Its in the atis
They were cleared the right departure not the forpe departure as atc said, atc messed up here, you can go read about it
They are two different frequencies for the tower, north and south. The voices are different.
Staggering departures on parallel runways should be the standard practice.
Nasty one, controller needed a bathroom break after that call.
Controller needs to be FIRED -- after that one.
@@warrenholmes3311 No, this isn't the controller's fault. The AAL clearly had missed a revision to their clearance somewhere along the way.
Only in America, you say.
Forpe and Broak can be thought to sound similar.
Sure, just like "turd" and "Jello"...
Why isn't ATC required to confirm RNAV departures?
'I'm Done With It' ................ scary AF.
Two airplanes taking off at the same time, heading the same direction... why is this allowed? Seems like the most basic of things to fix
Departing at the same time is quite normal all over the world.
I’m done with = I f’d up
He didn’t f up.
Well, the answer is with clearance delivery.
If they filed for and received a clearance for one departure procedure, but the controller assumed that they were on another departure procedure,… then yes,… the controller f’d up!
I guarantee you that with a situation as egregious as a “loss of separation” event and TR, if it were a pilot deviation, they would have given the number and called ops.
This is a miscommunication between north and south tower controllers and assumptions made.
If the departure procedure were not available for a given runway, that would and should have been corrected in the clearance.
@@saxmanb777
I love the wasted time bickering about what departure AA should’ve been on as opposed to just giving them a fucking heading.
Do to some last minute maneuvering by Southwest Arline’s the rumored merger started by American Airlines failed to go through.
HOLLY TITS THAT WAS INTENSE!