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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 21 ก.ย. 2024
- Sonic hasn't really been a AAA franchise since Unleashed. But should we go back to that? Was that ever really the right direction for Sonic? I'm not sure.
It's easy to immediately react to this because as fans we want big ambitious Sonic games. But it is important to step back and look at the bigger picture too. And that's not to say we can't still have cool games. Like I said, SA2 would no longer be a AAA game. But if we got a new game with similar scope to that, I'd be pretty pleased.
This also extends from my personal feelings that most AAA games are very wasteful with their massive budgets. In many ways, I think AAA games serve little purpose these days. But that's a story for another time.
/ pariah695
ko-fi.com/pari...
Another reason why Sonic Frontiers sold so well was because it came out right in between the first and second movies so it attracted a lot of new fans,the game even had some animations directly inspired from the first movie
I am reporting Sega to the FTC for delisting Sonic Generations as anti-competitive and deceptive practices you guys need to consider it if you want to protect Sonic Generations this isn't a threat to Sega and Sonic Team it's an absolute promise as soon as I find out where to file the complaint.
@@TechnoMinded-qp5in The reason why they do this is because they want to avoid confusion with the new people that want to buy their son/daughter “the new shadow game”
@@TechnoMinded-qp5inI literally told YOU specifically on a different channel that you can still purchase Sonic Generations in future bundles, so why are you going around other videos causing problems?
@@TechnoMinded-qp5inYou can report them to the FTC if you like, but no one will take you seriously, and they'll let you know where your place is
@@Kanata_Satou It came out way after the second movie but whatever, true
They can barely do AA right. Why place the rung higher?
I guess the rung should be placed lower...
forces was A ☠☠
Because they want to make Sonic more popular in Japan (because Sonic frontiers wasn't enough and the movies flopped there) and they especially want to catch up Mario in order to exceed him in all domains (which seems pratically impossible now).
A lot of people will hate to hear this, but in most of the world, Sonic is an icon first, a videogame franchise second.
Also, to SEGA's credit the period after Unleashed they stopped pricing the games at 60, probably aware that none of those games were AAA.
Honestly Sonic not being Triple A might be a blessing in disguise, the exploding production costs make it really hard for Triple A games to make money unless they are popular "GOTY" esque contenders, which Sonic certaintly isnt
@papersonic9941 Sonic is an icon from the games. Stuff like Satam or Archie or whatever are not that popular and if anything got extra exposure thanks to the internet especially in meme land (see AoStH). The movies and Boom might have changed thisfrom being made in the current year but still.
Whatever, most triple A games are cinematic trash nowadays. Besides, Sonic IS a video game franchise, tf you talking about. It started with games, and is known more for games.
Sonic in its current state is a double-edged sword. As a brand it's incredibly iconic and has wide appeal, but its many blunders has become apart of its identity. Considering how much "06" and "Shadow the Edgehog" is used as buzzwords to this day, there's a good chance that a lot of people who know about Sonic also know that his games are usually a consistent mess. Even the Adventure series eventually got dragged into the mud with youtube commentary and playthroughs. And of course none of the bigger releases are making a dent in perception due to how polarizing the reception is. There's always a myriad of problems that leaves its own fanbase taking multiple stances on where the quality is. So it makes sense that the majority of people who know about Sonic also wouldn't have an interest in his games when he's typically seen as the laughing stock of the video game market
All of this is to say that if they were to take a step back and focus on smaller budget quality games, I don't think they'd be in that position for long. For starters, this would give them a chance to find their footing in terms of gameplay formula and overall direction (hopefully they go with momentum, the best one). But more importantly, creating several undeniably good games would shift the general perception of Sonic as a gaming franchise. You wouldn't need word of mouth to spread Sonic's popularity so much as it would be to let people know that they've finally found their footing and can produce games on par with what you would get in Nintendo. The popularity is there, just that you'd need to reinvigorate faith that the quality is there with no hiccups.
You brought up Elden Ring as being a much more successful and popular game, and that's a great example. Because Elden Ring has one difficulty setting that filters like 80% of the people who have bought the game. Its incredibly nuanced level and enemy design (as far as From fans will say) makes it stupid hard for anyone just trying to casually run through a world the same way they would in BOTW. Yet it's still popular, because this more niche game design has been around for over a decade, and instead of abandoning it in favor of making games with wider audience appeal, FromSoft stuck to their guns and ultimately ended up setting a trend
The massive success From has with their own gameplay style took about what? 13 years to reach. If Sonic went that route, like you said, I'd argue he could reach it in half that time.
@LexStormA It doesn't help that Sega of America tries to be hip and take part in memes namely the ones that mock the series.
@@galten7361as well as localization
They had their footing around 14 years ago, with the boost gameplay. From Unleashed to Generations they were improving in each new game, and casuals and critics were excited with a new Sonic game.
Then Sonic Team released Lost World, and Sega Sonic Boom. You cannot trust this brand for too long.
Mark my words, even if Shadow Generations is good, the next mainline will suck hard because the dev team will target a wider audience by stripping everything that makes Sonic iconic.
The development foundation isn't solid enough for that amount of money to be put in. SEGA/Sonic Team have been consistently incompetent despite flashes of real creativity and brilliance.
Despite having plenty of grievances with Nintendo, I can't deny that they seem to have a keen eye for talent, and a decently switched-on management that know when to allow a game to have extra development time etc. whereas "Sonic Team" doesn't seem to mean anything anymore; who are these people? Are they carried on from the previous games, and do you have one of the old-heads (like Nintendo's Miyamoto) watching over them? I doubt it. Then again they _kind of_ did that with Sonic 4, so who knows! Suffice to say Nintendo just have them completely beat in this regard, and it's sad. They should have made the Mania devs the new Sonic Team, contracted them for the foreseeable future, and gave them more creative freedom, whilst still being advised by member(s) of the original Sonic Team, if possible. That way you have a consistent team with a proven track record (even if it's just one game) of producing quality content, and that has the sole job of making this series the best it can be.
P.S when I say contract the Mania devs, I'm not implying they should only produce 2D, classic-style Sonic games. I'm sure the Mania team could make a 3D engine and come up with something special (Adventure 3, anyone?)
@@GuyDude-hk8uy cook
I think Sonic absolutely could be a AAA franchise. Sure it's a niche game with a high skill ceiling, but you know what else is? Devil May Cry. Soulsbourne. These games are both unique and challenging, encouraging lots of replay, but they sell like hot cakes. And Sonic COULD be there, BUT it won't happen overnight. The Sonic franchise suffers from a few big problems. One of them is a(n admittedly deserved) reputation for mediocre quality, but I think the biggest thing holding it back is lack of a cohesive vision. If you pick up a Mario game, you know what you're getting. You pick up a Devil May Cry game, you know what you're getting. But Sonic? One year he's running around a theme park collecting Teletubby squid things, another year he's a werewolf, another year he's a racing game with hover boards, another year he's Mario Galaxy, but, instead of planets, it's HEXAGONS. The series has no identity.
Add to that that Sonic and his supporting cast aren't even depicted consistently, and you further compound the problem. I can't think of a single other game series whose characters are so inconsistently portrayed. And it's not a trivial issue. People really attach themselves to characters, and they notice when they're off. Look at how fans completely flipped the table when Ninja Theory tried to reinvent Dante. And that was actually a solid game at its core. Your gameplay can be top notch, but if your characterization if off, then your game's reception is going to be mixed, at best.
In order for Sonic to get back the A-tier in gaming, SEGA would need to identify everything that makes Sonic iconic and fun and then uncompromisably deliver on that again and again until the series earned back its reputation.
In order to appeal to a wide audience, you could make it to where it's not that hard to complete the game and have a decent time, but to really unlock the game's full potential, you need to hone your skills. However, even this isn't necessary. The Soulsbourne, DMC, and DOOM franchises do not coddle players whatever, and yet they thrive. Because they know what they are, and they consistently deliver on that premise.
@@genevievebertolet2909 W comment. I love how fans have this all figured out and can write these game document ass novels but Sonic Team still can't crack the code after decades LMAO. To be fair I think the series was solid in terms of almost all these things up until Shadow the Hedgehog (the game), that's when things markedly went off the rails in the areas you mentioned. The main series classic titles are solidified in vision and built off each other well to lay the foundation of the franchise. I believe the true 3D Sonic formula is a mixture between the best elements of Adventure 1, 2, and Heroes (while weeding out elements that hindered those titles).
I agree solely on the premise that another game with the scope of Adventure 2 is plenty.
Edit: Actually watched the video, yes I completely agree, if Penny's big breakaway was basically reskinned to be Sonic i'd have done gangbusters. If that charm and smaller scope optimized with gameplay first was done for Sonic we'd be so much better off than trying to hit the AAA market.
Smaller, more passionate teams handling the IP with care.
While I wouldn’t say that the success of the classic games was a fluke, what’s definitely true is their explosive popularity had everything to do with context. There was nothing on the market that looked or played like Sonic in 1991, it was a complete revelation for action games. By as early as 1994 tho, the entire genre had evolved *in response* to the new standard set by Sonic. Platformers had become more open, fluid and dynamic, with worlds that weren’t made up of slowly scrolling tiles anymore. Sonic 3 & Knuckles sold a fraction of what the first two games did, because in a market where you could play DKC, Super Metroid, Tiny Toon Adventures, Mega Man X, Rocket Knight Adventures, any number of Treasure games etc, Sonic wasn’t the only thing that stood out anymore with its smooth, dynamic action. It doesn’t surprise me at all that DK absolutely lapped Sonic that holiday season. And with a handful of tiny exceptions, Sonic has never come close to rocking the industry quite as hard purely with its game design ever since.
Exactly! I remembered of your video when you talked about the gaming response to Sonic 1 and it's apeal
3&K sold a fraction of what 1 and 2 did because it wasn’t a pack in title
1 and 2 came with the console
I honestly think Frontiers actually does provide something the competitors don’t offer after the dlc campaign was made.
@@lemon5000-tj6nv - People weren't just getting Sonic thrown in with their Mega Drives; they were buying the Mega Drive to *play Sonic.* He was quite literally selling the platform. Even if Sonic 3 was made a pack-in title at launch, I highly doubt it would've boosted its numbers much. Even Aladdin was considered more novel by that point.
It feels like Sonic's name and likeness are the only things that are still mainstream. Everything else is "oh, y'know, uhhh...IDK"
well sonics characters story music and speed based gameplay are all iconic
@OptimistoET The iconic Sonic characters are Sonic and Tails and Eggman with Shadow and Amy in 2nd tier with Metal a 3rd. Everyone else is niche.
@@galten7361 Right, Amy is more iconic than Knuckles
It’s sorta like PAC man to a degree. Everyone will recognize pac man, but will they play a game from the franchise. Probably not. At least it’s not a priority for them.
@@galten7361 No way is Shadow 2nd tier, he's almost more popular than Sonic himself.
Please forgive any spelling mistakes as English is not my native language.
Unless you're Mario, there's almost no demand for AAA 3D platformers. We have to accept this, nowadays people expect cinematic presentation and story from AAA games rather than gameplay. How many AAA games have gameplay mechanics that an indie game can't offer? AAA games just have visuals that indies can't offer. That's why I agree with what you said, how many people expect gameplay from Sonic? There are those who make ridiculous criticisms about Sonic like "I can't feel the speed in Sonic". Even most of those who like Frontiers like the fact that the game is an open world and has a cinematic presentation, not the Sonic game parts like cyberspace. I even saw a lot of people calling cyberspace parts most boring and uninteresting parts of the game.
Firstly, cyberspace controlled terribly and copied old level design, OF COURSE it was the most boring part of the game.
Secondly, "I can't feel the speed in Sonic" is a subjective opinion not a "ridiculous claim"
However, I do agree people just want visuals and which is why Sonic Frontiers did well with casuals.
Yep, only exceptions are crash n sane trilogy and spyro reignited which both sold 25 million and 10 million units each and that’s probably only cuz of nostalgia bait
Crash 4 sold a respectable 5 million yet was still seen as a flop by activision
@@AYTM1200I can't feel the speed in Sonic too.
All 'cause of being try hard botw + sotc + a bit of mgr;r.
Astro bot might sell well and that's not Mario
Cyberspace feels like a downgrade from the Generations/Unleashed gameplay formula
For a long time I was like “man why aren’t these new Sonic games as big and ambitious as they used to be, this sucks” but now that I’m older I see it for what it is and it’s just a matter of fact that Sonic games have not sold well in a long long time. Frontiers is the best selling 3D Sonic game, but it is kinda sad that it didn’t sell better considering just how massive an industry gaming has become. It sucks but Sonic the Hedgehog simply isn’t a household name in gaming anymore. The series has had too many blunders for that to be possible in this day and age. The only way Sonic could regain that status would be for a new 3D Sonic platformer on the level of or better than a new 3D Mario title, and even then it probably wouldn’t sell nearly as well as that new 3D Mario. Would I love to see a big 3D Sonic game that could go toe to toe with something like Mario Odyssey? Yeah of course I would, but I simply don’t think it’s in the cards.
Yeah, Sonic fans got to consider:
-This is not the 2000s, platformers are not the domiant genre right now. Lots of platformers ended or died out
-Sonic is not that big/popular in Japan
-Triple A Gaming exploding production costs makes it diffuclt for even well received games like 7 Rebirth to do well
I think you are being too pessimistic.
Since Sonic Frontiers came out, Sonic's popularity in Japan has been increasing significantly, AND the franchise has been put in a much better light than it has been during the 2010s.
Alongside that, the quality of the games has been increasing, and Sega has been investing heavily in Sonic, for all purposes Sonic is starting to grow again and becoming more popular has time goes on, if Sega keeps up improving and allowing the franchise to grow.
This may as well become a reality. The possibility is there and is reachable, as long as they don't fuck it up.
I have a feeling that Sonic's popularity has been artificially inflated since it's inception.
If you see sales charts of Sonic games, there's a noticeable drop from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2. Why? Because Sonic 1 was a bundle with the Genesis in the US. Sonic 2 had to be purchased on store. Sonic 3 and Knuckles sold rven less. Why Sonic 1 bundle sold so much? Because the Genesis was sold 50 dollars cheaper than the SNES. Parents wanted the cheaoer console for their kids.
There are many Sonic fans out there, but it always been a niche IP. I wouldn't be surprised if Crash, Spyro or even Rayman have more casual fans than Sonic.
10:05 It took 8 months for Sonic Mania to reach 1 million sales. Not a good show for a USD 20$ game that is tauted as "the best Sonic game ever". I think ever Superstars sold the same amount faster.
They just need to focus on consistently releasing fun high quality games and the Sonic name will truly mean something again. Just think about how interesting it would be for a Franchise that was once an Icon, turned laughing stock managed to once again become a titan of the industry, that in itself would draw in more people.
Sonic just needs to make actual good games. Not games with parts that are good, not games with ‘good ideas’, a concrete beginning-to-end good game.
Mario, Kirby and Crash Bandicoot can do it, why can’t Sonic?
They can and have been since 2020 started. You just don't want to accept that.
@@cristianovogt5586 nah hes right. I love frontiers but half of the game sucks
@@cristianovogt5586 Excuse me while I stop myself from laughing
@@cristianovogt5586 if you played a game that was just the puzzles and minigames from frontiers, would it be good?
What is "good" anymore? There's just way too much critics out there with scrambled expectations.
Sonic should have good games. AAA doesn't always mean quality. I don't think Nintendo fans refer to their games as AAA.
Some Nintendo games are AAA by definition, though. They’re published by a well-known publisher, Nintendo, and their high-profile games use a lot of resources and budget to make. The only reason why they don’t have budgets as high as other studios is because their games are generally more stylistic in nature. If stylistic games didn’t count, then Astro Bot shouldn’t be a AAA game by that logic, which it is considered one.
A game doesn’t need to be AAA to be good, but Nintendo does produce games that are still, by definition, AAA games. They do like to mix it up a lot, though, and don’t solely focus on AAA titles. I think Sonic should be the same way, where he has smaller-budget titles like Sonic Mania alongside larger productions like Sonic Frontiers.
@@jadonh yeah I agree but the general public refers to those games as good more than AAA so it really is more about perspective
It's like that phrase if someone did a good job they don't know they did it at all. It's like how some people still think Sonic Mania is a indie game
@@RakoonCD Ah, if you’re going from public perspective, then I definitely agree with you. I’m not sure how Sonic could necessarily pull off a AAA-perceived game, though. It’s not a realistic-looking series most of the time, so I feel like it would be hard to have the public perceive his games that way. (Sonic Frontiers might’ve been the closest to that due to the style they chose.)
You’re right,just look at Concord lol
I definitely like the idea of more focused Sonic games.
Considering how I’ve seen Sonic outside of the games, stuff like the movies, Sonic Prime, and merchandise, Sonic as a brand sure feels like it has mass appeal. Walk down a toy isle in a super market and you’ll find just as much Sonic stuff as Mario or Minecraft. He’s one of those icons that has engrained itself in our culture.
So as long as that is the case, I think there could be a mass audience for at least Sonic as a character and brand. Now how much that translates to game sales, I’m not sure.
That's just because Sega loves to milk Sonic for merchandise these days. Certainly does reflect game sales or popularity.
The hedgehog definitely deserves a series of AAA games, to end this sense of "bad reputation" in games. No more mediocre games...
@@Mugen2024 Just because a game isn't AAA doesn't mean it's mediocre...did you even listen to the examples Pariah gave in this video?
@Pariah6950 I asked if you could write a fanfiction about your sonic rivals 2 rewrite.
@@Pariah6950If there's that many merchandise for Sonic, then it is because there's a demand. Here in Brazil I see often in the streets, kids love Sonic, not just the movie version of Sonic , but the game's version of the character.
So basically, quality over quantity
I like the majority of 3d sonic games but I won't lie that a ton of them try their best to justify their price a little too hard
It's a shame forces turned out the way it did because I think 40 dollars for sonic games is the perfect price range
I think the cheaper feeling of some of the 2010s sonic games really made people yearn for a high budget game again so going back would sound like an insult to them
Forces wasn't good so nah
@@pinhe4d321 do u even know what your talking about?
sonic is in this weird position where everyone knows who the character is and the franchise performs extremely well in every aspect except for the games. sonic is massively popular in extended media like comics and movies but the popularity of the extended media isn't translating over to the video game side, for whatever reason. only the hardcore sonic fans really know or care about them. it leads me to believe that the series has mass appeal, it's just that sonic team aren't capitalizing on the series properly.
People like Sonic as a character far more than they like Sonic as a videogame. That plus Sonic has a lot of historical value in general. But it doesn’t help that some of Sonic’s most known games are not seen in a good light. (Sonic 06, Sonic adventure 1&2, Sonic Unleashed)
@@nikkihedgedbro how the hell are sonic adventure 1&2 and unleashed not seen in a good light?
@@IslamHany-dg6xiI was refering to he complaints the games used to receive like the bugs, unfun treasure stages, werehog, stuff like that
I think sonic needs a good streak of games (AAA or not) with the polish and quality from gens and mania. Sure that the nostalgia factor of those games helped them to be more popular, but a new and good sonic game that doesn't rely on that can still get enough attention.
If we get many of that kind in a row maybe the casual who didn't care for sonic finally decides to try it because of all the good things he has been hearing. The increased sales or potential need for an AAA production will come by themselves after that
mans getting the most out of his frontiers footage possible, this is like the 4th video with mainly frontiers gameplay outside of reviews
I don't feel like there's anything a AAA experience would offer that a AA experience couldn't. Unless you're trying to completely revolutionize the gameplay formula ala Breath of the Wild--I don't see how you could justify the costs associated with a AAA production.
I personally believe this question is harder to answer than you think, I mean Sega HAD a triple A sonic game in the works Sonic boom rise of lyric, and instead of letting their newly hired developers finish what they started in the intended platforms they decided to make them cram that into a wiiU.
So yeah to answer the question I would like to see a triple A sonic game from a different studio but with the way Sega/sonic team handle the IP I doubt we will ever see it
Consider this: Sonic Frontiers has sold 3 million copies across 4 different platforms Xbox, PS, PC, Switch. Mario Odyssey sold nearly 30 million copies on Switch ALONE. Sonic is not as profitable as a typical Sonic fan wants to think. They are not on the same level and have not been for decades. 😂 It's SEGA's insistance on merchanising, and multimedia projects that are designed to give the impression that the franchise is bigger than it actually is.
Adding , looking on the history of video game sells. No Sonic game has ever touched Mario sells. From Sonic’s start to now. I agree with you on that.
Actually , I just looked it up, on the best selling video game franchises, Mario sits at 860 million copies.
With Sonic at 160 million copies. The numbers speak for themselves.
@@chi-wind8593 sonic games aren't that big but sonics identity is huge games like sonic dash and speed simulator show that the sonic has huge appeal. They just need to make 3 back to back mario level games
yeah, fuckin duh, of course *Mario* gets way more sales. It's *Mario.* Mario is Mr Video Games himself. Obviously Sonic isn't gonna sell nearly as well as the Mickey Mouse of Video Games. 3 million copies is still a *lot* of copies, y'know?
@@lol-gv7ox Horizon Zero Dawn sold 24 million copies as a new IP exclusive to the PS4. Days Gone (PS4) considered a flop, sold 8 million copies as a new IP exclusive to Playstation.
If the series wasn't that popular it wouldn't be a multimedia franchise in the first place. Besides most platformer games are niche.
This is definitely the most underrated sonictuber. People don’t like him because he’s honest about things
I don't think so its not like everyone else goes and lies in all their videos he's unscripted meaning he has less filter which is certainly true. i think its more so he comes at things from a different less common angle
Honestly I kinda hope Sonic Games never go AAA, most AAA games end up being incredibly boring and seem more concerned with pleasing the most people by dumbing down the game and making them as rail-roaded as possible rather than just making a fun game.
No lmao, AAA games are a horrible waste of money and time.
I don't care about how "big and shiny" the games are, as big budgets and whatever other bloat AAA games love to have almost always comes with the detriment of the games' quality.
do you actually play AAA games
@@rudenobu4954 yes, they're painfully mediocre at best and I'm not gonna pretend otherwise just because a bunch of people declare they're masterpieces and forget about them as soon as they play them.
@@Neawn-by5pi i agree 99% of the time, but elden ring tho…
@@Neawn-by5pi sorry i thought people loved games like mario odyssey, elden ring and astro bot
but dont you think it's kind of unfair to generalize a ton of games just because they're high budget?
@@rudenobu4954 a TON of AAA games are hot trash, don't you think it's weird to give them a lot of credits because of a few good ones?
I feel like if they ever did another AAA Sonic game, the actual fun part would be burried under a bunch of crap like minigames, puzzles, etc. to pad out the playtime, kinda like how it turned out with Unleashed with the Werehog and medal collecting.
also like frontiers lol
Why do people STILL hate on the Werehog in 2024?!?!
cause it's not good, the combat was shallow and boring and the platforming was servicable at best@t-bird6853
@@t-bird6853 Just needed an example.
The werehog is good but it was only there for sega to make more money. Tbh it’s just a generic brawler. The medal collecting is inexcusable
Nerdy, niche franchises are becoming big hits and punching above their weight all the time these days. Just off the top of my head... Pikmin 4 sold 3.5 million copies, equal to Sonic Frontiers. Metroid Dread sold over 3 million, and that was barely even a AA game. These games sold similar numbers to Sonic Frontiers and yet they are only on a single platform. The average consumer has heard of Sonic, but most of them have not heard of Pikmin or Metroid. Conventional wisdom tells us that these franchises are only enjoyed by nerds on the Internet. So how did they get so huge? Because Nintendo is confident in them and markets them well. Nintendo has a good reputation, which helps, but most of the success just comes from believing in these games. In fact, Sega themselves have done this very thing too - Persona 5 has sold over 7 million copies, something that would have been inconceivable only a decade ago. That's an even weirder and nerdier franchise than Pikmin and Metroid, and yet it's now an even bigger deal than both of them combined.
This kind of success story could happen with Sonic. Again, it would be even easier, since Sonic already has brand recognition. Sonic Team just needs to reinvent itself and aim for being a trendsetter rather than a follower. Sega needs to put its weight behind its mascot and invest heavily in marketing. You could spice things up further if you wanted... give a hypothetical AAA game a radically different art style, poach some top talent from Nintendo or Sony's devs and use that in its marketing, maybe even make the game a next-gen launch title to drive up sales more. But at the end of the day, there just needs to be confidence behind these games before any growth can happen. Anything can be AAA if you do it right.
They also don't have any 3rd party devs for projects. DIMPS hasn't touched the series in a while and asuming arzest will be that is good but it could help to have smaller games inbetween
Because nowadays Sega mostly uses mobile games as smaller in between games to hold us over, and they lost the rights to the olympics
*maybe* next year we could see another racing spin off by sumo digital, it has been 5 years since tsr
@@lemon5000-tj6nv You do know that Sumo Digital was acquired by chinese company Tencent? So much for those spin-off racing games...
Sonic is a pretty household name at this point, for example in Lego stores there’s a dedicated section to Sonic almost as big as the Mario one, and having worked there I can confirm children are always so excited to look at that section. I think that Sonic is not really capturing all of its own audience that it has even right now as a franchise with its games If Sonic Team puts out more polished high quality games that get lots of big youtubers talking about them, I think that they can pull in way more sales. I agree that triple A games may not necessarily do that, but I’m confident if they step away from the boost formula and expand on Sonic’s platforming again it can reach astronomical levels of success thanks to its raw branding power and mass youtube coverage.
Sega's market cap is also much lower than Nintendo's.
Sega is one if the smallest big game publishers in Japan, they don't have the same resources like Capcom or Nintendo have.
And this reflects on their games. Like a Dragon, one of Sega's biggest IPs, is notorious for reusing assets in each new game.
Sega relied on their arcade business to generate profit for R&D in the home game devision. When the arcade business lost relevancy in the mid 90's because of the introduction of more powerful 3D consoles, they had less money to use. This is one of the causes of the premature death of the Dreamcast.
Sega still maintained a dedicated arcade presence in Japan up until COVID striked. The lockdowns accelerated the fall of the arcade market in Japan and Sega had to close many of their arcade centers shortly after.
But what about SegaSammy? They never really cared about Sega, they just gave them a roof. SegaSammy shot themselves in the foot in 2020 when they tried to expand their Pachinko business overseas, but this came with new laws regarding Pachinko machine inspections, which now take much longer. And Jaoan's declining population ctisis also is making their gambling business decline.
In recent years Sega seemingly has been taking steps to distance themselves from SegaSammy, with a total restructuring on how they manage their many divisions. They even have a new Sega of America CEO, which was one Dreamcast hardware dev back in the day.
I agree with Pariah's take that Sonic don't have a wide appeal as a vidoegame franchise. He never had. But I believe Sonic has a lot of potential as a multimedia franchise. Sonic always did better as a cartoon, comic books, toy, etc. And with the success of the movies and I think Sega wants Sonic IP to e multimedia first, and the games are just a mean to promote the brand. Essentially it is what Pokémon is to Nintendo.
We are entering the IP era of entertainment companies. Nintendo is collecting the fruits of decades of protecting their IPs now with the Mario movie, and the Nintendo theme park. If the vidoegame business were to crash or something, Nintendo is ready to pivot to a new business. I think Sega will be following suit. This is why there's this oush to revive many of their dormant IPs, with the "Power Surge" campaign.
Didn't read most of it but saying they don't have the funds is dumb af lmfao. They're going all in on super games that cost a fuck ton to make
Unfortunately Sonic is a niche market so there is no way it can have a AAA production value. Also, the dev team isn't very competent at making good Sonic games.
Now, however niche Sonic is in the West, is so much worse in Japan. Almost no one gets into Sonic or even knows about it, making me think that Sonic is fundamentally unappealing to the Japanese market.
Peharps Sega should add lolis to Sonic games, to make them more appealing to japanese players.
Jokes aside Sega has been trying to increase the appeal of the Sonic IP in Japan for quite a while. Recently Sonic Team compketed an Asia Tour to meet their fans in person and seens it was a success. They don't have a large Sonic fandom there, but they are a small dedicated fanbase that cannot be ignored.
They also been more active on japanese Social Media, making Q&A and skit videos with the VAs from the games (like the Twitter Takeovers, but everyone is in-character). There's the Sonic & Friends shorts for TikTok.
I've been looking more into japanese gaming TH-camrs, and there's quite a bit of Japanese Sonic Tubers with thousands of views, and general japanese gamers with Sonic videos with millions of views - further exposing Sonic to more people.
The release of Sonic Adventure DX and SA2 on japanese Steam recently also was a big success.
But I agree. Japan is dominated by Nintendo and smartphone games. This is why Sony abandoned that market.
But the core issue is that japanese Sonic fans don't care about classic stuff. They like the Sonic from the 2000's. Frontiers was a success in Japan because it appealed to japanese Sonic fans.
If sega had pushed Sonic as hard in Japan as they did in the west, Sonic would definitely be more popular. In the west sega of America pushed Sonic in multiple ways over a long period of time, long running comics, merchandise, multiple animated series, and strong marketing in general with the genesis and bundling Sonic for free alongside an iconic marketing campaign. Japan didn’t get half the stuff that Sonic fans got in the west. Sonic’s also known as a former rival to Mario in the west, which gives Sonic more credibility here. That’s not going to be the same case in Japan I would imagine.
I don’t think it’s the dev team being incompetent. It’s the dev team being choked up by members dropping in-and-out with the Sonic community themselves also struggling to make 3-d Sonic games until recently.
@@bluestar5812 The fact that Japan fans would look at Infinite and lift him up instead of mania says a lot.
I mean, I may be looking too ahead, but I feel like Sonic and Shadow Generations will perfectly prove your point. Making a small budget remaster of generations with basically Shadow DLC sounds like a recipe for success for a Sonic game. I mean, I'm not 100% sure, but perhaps it'll just feed into your point more.
It certainly could. I don't think it'll sell as much as Frontiers. But it could still be a success depending on its budget.
@@Pariah6950 That's what I kinda mean. It will sell well preportonally with the amount of money that was pumped into the project. I'm not sure if the prepotrions will beat out frontiers, but maybe
@@Pariah6950Tbf, I think Sonic Movie 3 alone will help its sales a lot in the long-run given the hype it's getting.
@@shinox7892 It’s the perfect Christmas game, so they don’t want parents to accidentally do something stupid by buying the original one on accident.
The thing is that platformers don't sell that much now a days
No one should have AAA games. No one deserves a punishment that cruel.
I've felt for some time that Sonic fans generally care a lot more about the characters (or just their general designs) than the gameplay. It's hard to convince anyone to try Sonic-likes that don't have the blue rat on the box.
What about the Spark games? There are 3 of them, the third has been ported to Switch recently. And Lake is currently working on his own racing game. So there is a market for these non-Sonic games, but only Lake figured the recipe for success.
@@bluestar5812 I haven’t managed to get anyone I know to play them.
@bluestar5812 they're OK. Haven't touched them since the initial playthroughs, same with Penny's big breakaway and rolling rascal really didnt do anything for me
I want insomniac games to make a sonic game, they'd cook so fucken hard!
I don’t think you’re right about why Frontiers succeeded. I think it moreso owes its success to the Sonic movies and Sonic Prime being huge with kids, so parents buying them more Sonic stuff
In general this video is stuck in the past a bit. Maybe in 2017, it’s accurate to say most people only know sonic as that mediocre game franchise. But today, most people know him as that popular movie with Jim Carrey, or that Netflix paw patrol show to keep the iPad kids distracted
I don't think I like the take that Sonic Frontiers' sales came from being a BOTW clone. To me, it feels rather obvious that a lot of it's sales came from it being Sonic, due to the 2 recent movies that came out. Those movies had pushed Sonic back into the public consciousness, at just the right time to get people interested in the new Sonic game. And with Genshin, I feel like that game does so much better because it's not only appealing to the Chinese market, it's also a *gacha game*, which makes tons of money.
Sonic Frontiers sold well because it was a kids game for a franchise that had recently gotten a big Roblox game, a show on Netflix, and two whole ass movies. Tons of kids had it at the forefront of their minds. Hell, the entire reason Shadow Generations was made is because they're making a movie about Shadow.
Like, I feel like Sonic should have big budget games, but obviously they shouldn't *only* have big budget games. The model they're showing, where in between games, they'll release smaller games like Shadow Generations, is a good idea.
Though I feel like there's two different *kinds* of AAA games.
There's the kind of AAA game where 3 million copies is a huge success, like Sonic Frontiers. A big budget game that isn't *ridiculous.
Then there's the kind of AAA game where 3 million copies is a "ough fuck, we'll never recover from this", like Spider-Man 2 or Final Fantasy XVI. Clearly, Sonic should be the former, not the latter. Though he is saved from this sort of budget bloat by being for the Switch instead of trying to use all the graphics on the PS5.
@@lol-gv7ox it’s cuz frontiers isn’t AAA, it’s AA it’s a midsized game
@@lemon5000-tj6nv It's 60 bucks, that's AAA. It's big, just not "hundred million dollar budget" big.
@@lemon5000-tj6nv An AAA game is a high-budget, high-profile game released by a major publisher. I'd consider Frontiers a big game, especially because the developers literally described it as a "final gamble on big 3d sonic games"
@@lol-gv7oxWait. So superstars was a massive success? What a plot twist.
One thing is for sure, I don't think Sega would go so insane to create Sonic game that would cost in budget of $400,000,000.
BTW that's how much Concord cost, the game that was 8 years in the making and Sony wasted all of that money just in 16 days after taking the game offline. That should put people think twice of whatever we REALLY need triple A Sonic game even if Sega's budget for the game is in moderate size + marketing and it still cannot gain back good amount of profit from sales.
Appeal and popularity is such a joke. We live in a world where cringe brain rot is popular just because 2020 kids are gullible.
I feel like it’s as simple as them adjusting the cost of development to the scale of frontiers success as the new benchmark in terms of revenue in hopes of it making more money or at least breaking even.
i was just going to bed but thanks I guess 🙄
HOW IS THIS 14 HOURS AGO?!
Because he's a member so he gets videos early
@@HomieN09 no pariah just uploads his videos early on patreon (for free btw)
@@superiornas8883 but you have that mask in your name tho?
@@HomieN09 I didn't see the video early on youtube
The sonic movies have more pull than the games
Agreed. Sega would be in a tough spot right now without the film’s goodwill. No way we could get a whole year of shadow otherwise. lol
As I've heard from a Sonic Artist, most Sonic Fans, don't really play many Sonic games.
I think a AAA Sonic game wont really sell very well, in any big case, there are many factors.
Maybe sonic should have good games but that’s just me
Well that’s just having unrealistic expectations 😂
@@galacticspecter4364 maybe if it was 2014 or 2017 i'd agree, but after frontiers, and now shadow gens i think you're hating.
I think alot of the notion of wanting a AAA Sonic games comes from alot of fans wanting to feel validated in liking Sonic and that a game can be seen as a good game in itself rather than just a good *Sonic* game. While I get that, and I'd also love to see a Sonic game that can get score average above 7/10's, I feel that notion steems from being traumatized by Sonic's laughing stock status that was further perpetuated by influencers taking advantage of the hit-and-miss quality to mock people who like the franchise, especially after how Boom crashed and burned. Plus, Forces being a disappointment to many is what only further that drive to wanting Sonic games to immediately match the quality of titles like Super Mario Odyssey.
Realistically, I don't think Sonic will really get to that level again. Sure, its more mainstream now thanks to the Paramount movies alongside Sega and Sonic Team being better about consistency in good quality and brand image. But I think the moment Sega left the console market due to a string of failures that accumulated with the Dreamcast, Sonic's triple A status also left. It's not a franchise made to try to sell consoles or win awards. Really, I think as long as they're addressing criticisms properly to help further improve the franchise in a way that does pleases their audiences, it shouldn't be that upsetting if a game doesn't get a 9 or 10 from critics. What really matters is that people enjoy them and that Sega and Sonic Team use feedback to properly improve whatever will come out in the future. For me as a longtime Sonic fan, I think I'm content with that. Not like Sega and Sonic Team will never try to raise the bar, especially since Sonic X Shadow Generations does seem to be really taking the feedback from Colors Ultimate, Origins, and Frontiers properly.
Nah, you are just being way too pessimistic.
You pretty much summed it up perfectly
I’d argue that, besides the open-world Zeldas, Nintendo doesn’t even make AAA games anymore. They aren’t competing with fidelity on-par with Call of Duty or The Last of Us. Because AAA games aren’t sustainable anymore.
As for Sonic games at least being on-par with Nintendo releases, well, Sega Sammy has proven that they prefer making games quick and cheap over making them good.
on the thing you were saying about why the classics had success despite the series’s niche appeal-i feel like this is connected to the whole “2D sonic isn’t actually about speed, it’s about platforming and exploration” thing, and i wonder if that kind of perception is why those games even have that mass appeal to begin with
i honestly dont care about the 'budget' of the game, so far alot of sonic games have had sych outstanding concepts (colors, forces, even lost world to an extent, and frontiers)
i just want Sonic Team to be treated better by sega, i hear so many horrifying development stories for games that are functionally terrible (like heroes or 06)
game Development takes time, and shouldnt be rushed, which is what sonic games have been doing for so long
so in summary, give them time to develop the idea, and execute it well. And treat the devs better
also sorry if everything I said was stupid
Frontiers took 5 years ,yes actual development started in 2019 but it was still sonic team’s choice to spend 2 years just in research department and not sure what to do ,sega is horrible sometimes but there’s a reason why sonic is the only inconsistent franchise from sega ,sonic team is just a victim of circumstances whether was it being rushed or poor choices or just spending the time and budget in something they’ll just scrap ,sonic frontiers (or ranges as a code name) didn’t start as an open world
@@2ndspringtube708you have to put into consideration covid happened though
@@Superdude-rd2gs scrapped projects were still scrapped ,and 2022 was a perfect release date alongside the movie ,I doubt it’ll sell as well if it was delayed again
Segas biggest issue is taking things with from franchises by not understanding why it was so successful. Theres nothing wrong with taking inspirations but you need to be true to Sonic as well.
Im more than down with getting a AAA sonic experience but Sega needs to get a solid successful games before doing AAA
It does feel like Sonic ever since like the 2000s has always been chasing trends instead of sticking to what made it famous. Biggest example of this is the Warehog, pretty clearly taking after God of War, and when Spyro and Crash already made their GOW clones.
@@theimpersonator7086 Ironically, the spinoffs were more imaginative than the mainline titles in the 2000s. Sonic Rush was influential with the boost formula and Riders' unique take on a mascot racer. (Too bad the latter suffered from Sonic Team not giving players a clear tutorial on how to play)
@@Zhawn7 Yeah, the Sonic spinoffs in the 2000s were very high quality for the most part. Like Sonic Advance does a really good job of recreating the Classic Sonic feel
No idea, they’ve yet to release one in over a decade
To say that sonic has little appeal when it’s been on a downward trajectory since (arguably) 2014 with rise of lyric and even earlier if you REALLY wanna go down the dark ages, but the series has withstood the very worst commercially and critically and managed to bounce back after, honestly speaking, irrelevancy with 3 blockbuster movies and a decently acclaimed game after many MANY years of dry content and fans and newcomers recognise Sonic, sure, you can make an argument that the reason it even manage to bounce back to relevancy was because of a design changed, but it was because of the reception of the general public (mostly) that it even got changed, not really sonic fans, like please, let’s not say that the sonic IP has ‘niche’ appeal in 2024, c’mon man…
Fr. What was he talking about the Sonic brand isn't that popular if it wasn't this popular it would have a movie, an animated series and comics if it wasn't a popular brand.
I think he's talking about the actual gameplay of the games. not sonic as a character.
@@superiornas8883he talked about the IP as a whole and then used gameplay as a poor example/reference while ignoring EVERYTHING ELSE within the series
Sonic 4 Episode 3 will be AAAA
Sonic speed simulator is a hugely popular Roblox game and that’s a pure sonic game. People love the sonic IP games like sonic dash have huge amount of downloads because kids love sonic. Prime was very popular on Netflix because kids love looking at sonic. Movie sonic made loads of money because people love sonic. The sonic IP has a lot of pull sega just aren’t capitalising on it with good games. I think the new shadow gens bundle will beat frontiers because it looks like it’ll be a very solid game with good marketing
I don’t think it’ll beat it in sales but probably more popular with fans
Got any stats for that?
Shadow Gens looks solid?
This is something I've been discussing on Sonic groups on Discord, the possibility that the majority of the new Sonic fans (kids and teenagers) are not interacting with the old guard of Sonic fandom and they have isolated themselves in their own bubble, with their own culture.
There's a saying that Sonic fans are adults of 30 or so years old; but I think there is a lot of Sonic fans on places like TikTok and Roblox. Mostly kids that are too young to remember all the drama from 2000's Sonic or be into Sonic discussion. Those are the kids that grew up with the Sonic movies, maybe the IDW Comics, but mostly with Sonix fan games madr in Roblox or FNF Sonic mods.
Some time ago I visited a friend I haven't seen in a long time, and met his little brother who grew up playing smartphone games and have zero interest in console snd PCs - his older brother has a gaming PC with Elden Ring, GTA V, and other cool games.
I saw he was playing a Sonic Roblox game that was essentially Sonic MegaMix, with a bunch of Classic Sonic levels and secrets. I recognized a lot of stages a tracks, like Rusty Ruins Zone etc. My friend says he plays this game a lot.
And like you said, when I visited Sonic Speed Simulator had a lot active players.
We'll see the effect when this new generation of Sonic fans are old enough to have their own money to buy games. But something tells me they will stick with freemium mobile games.
@@keithflippers4429 500 million downloads since 2021 for sonic dash. sonic prime has 165 million hours of watch time. sonic speed simulator has 1 billion visits and over 1 mil likes
While i dont necessarily agree with you for the first half of the video, specifically on the marketing stuff, I do agree that if Sonic Team actually focused more on making more smaller, tight knit experiences that arent trying all these crazy things that arent sonic. Then maybe that would be better for the series.
Sonic team has a history of rushing development either due to a lack of budget or time constraints, and they are STILL making the same mistakes even now. Maybe if they planned ahead knowing they dont have a lot of time, then maybe that would help. But then again im not in the gaming industry, so who knows what the actual problem is.
3d platformers are niche at best unless your name is Mario. Sonic games are some of the only double a games left
8:38 Yeah, I've been thinking along these lines for some years now. I remember I made a comment on someone's video regarding a game called Rollin' Rascal and how it was trying to basically be a more polished SA2-esque experience, and while I liked what was there in the demo for the game (for the most part, that is; i've got serious criticisms still), I took issue with the fact that the game felt like it was basically just trying to be Sonic (or more specifically, a Sonic fan game from the same developer) with a fresh coat of paint, and that immediately made me worry for the game's success. And the reason is simple: Sonic is niche, and most people who play Sonic, don't just do it for the gameplay, especially not the kind that Rolling Rascal is trying to offer. Without the extra stuff, like the characters, the art-style, the lore, etc., I kind of worry for games that basically just try to be "Sonic but better".
And that's not even getting into the fact that 3D platformers in general are a dying breed, with there basically needing to be some kind of marketing gimmick most of the time for people to even pay attention to it. You have to do more than just be "Sonic but the way I wanted/imagine it" to make a decent profit.
They arent tryna be sonic but better tho lol
I don't think Frontiers being a BOTW ripoff is the only factor for it selling well. If anything, I'd argue it's two other factors. For one thing, the Sonic movies increased Sonic's popularity substantially with how much they grossed & how many people enjoyed them. Second, the Adventure & Dark Age games were getting much more attention & love at the time, & a game similar to those in style & story; & similar to Adventure in terms of open ended level design was in HIGH demand. Frontiers appealed on all those fronts. It had the same big crazy anime story that people loved from the Adventure & Dark Age games, & because it was open world-esque, it had even more open ended design than Adventure 1. Sonic does legitimately have an appeal to general audiences, & a lot of that comes from the 2000s games. People like that stuff. Those big ridiculous stories & stakes, those cool anime moments, & the creative gameplay.
Also, I never really liked the discussion of if Sonic should be AAA or not. Because, why does that matter? Who cares if something is AAA. What about the actual...quality? I would consider Sonic Generations a masterpiece & that game definitely isn't AAA. Even in terms of business, there's really no need to. Like you said, it is riskier with the bigger budgets, but that's even moreso for Sonic. Sonic games have more development resources put into them because of Sonic's speed. Levels need to be bigger than your average platformer, AND they need the multiple pathways on top of that. Putting AAA status on top of that would strain the budget even more. A smaller Sonic game is not only less risky, but it still does have the chance of selling really well. Sonic is one of the most recognizable brands out there. A Sonic game is bound to get at least some atrention just because it's Sonic. If a new Sonic game is super appealing to people by taking inspiration from the 2000s game, and/or just looking super cool overall, it's bound to get even more attention. At that point, there is no reason to try & reach AAA status.
The thing is…Sonic CAN be in a position to sell like Mario and other AAA games. The shifts that would need to be made aren’t difficult to identify and execute…but Sega/Sonic Team just fumbles the ball every time because THEY…somehow…don’t know what to do, or don’t want to do it.
Their audience has been vocal about what they want for decades. Sega doesn’t wanna deliver. People move along.
People kept saying they didn’t want to be forced to play alternate gameplay genres since 2001. Sonic Team didn’t deliver that until 9 years later.
People wanted Sonic to go back to his roots after all the blunders. Sonic Team/Dimps made something people did not want in 2010. It took Sega 7 years after that to deliver.
People wanted other playable characters in 3D games that play like Sonic since…idk forever…since the early 2010s? It took them roughly 13 years to deliver that! (No we don’t count Boom)
People to this day keep asking for Chao. Something I legit believe could’ve been a competitor to Pokemon had they struck when the iron was hot…Iizuka keeps saying no.
People waiting for Adventure 3…good luck with that.
People waiting for an Unleashed re-release…good luck with that.
They want to do what they want to do until people don’t care, the moneys dried up, or optics are bad. That’s when we get stuff like Generations, Colors, Mania, even Unleashed to a degree.
When Sega has a fire lit under them, we get stuff like the Dreamcast. Hopefully Sonic’s situation doesn’t end up like that
So because Sega didn't heed to the constant whining of the very small group of adventure fanboys they've "failed".
What a great and accurate analysis.
So wanting other playable characters, going back to Sonic’s roots, and wanting an Unleashed re-release are demands of Adventure fans? Nice try. Actually read.
These are requests from many audiences over the decades that Sega/Sonic Team never addressed or keep dodging. You don’t cater to your audience and they’ll find fun some place else.
@@TheJmack90 90% is basically telling sega they deserve to fail because they didn't listen to the adventure fanboys just because you added in 1 or 2 other requests from other eras doesn't invalidate my point.
Sega will survive and can even thrive with or without listening to these requests.
Correct, the last decade was a perfect example of this;
They failed the continue and build upon the momentum that colours, gens and the all stars games had back then by unnecessarily changing things up for no reason
They ditched the boost for lost world even tho the boost was the winning formula at the time, and the general consensus after gens was pretty much just take the modern stages and make a new game with fully original levels
Then we had boom, a sub series that nobody asked for when they should’ve just made a show that puts attention the main brand like they did with X and the Dic shows
We also had an unnecessary exclusivity deal to Nintendo even tho sonic was also selling well on PlayStation and Xbox
Then Boom flopped and made Sega loose billions and perform mass layoffs, which in turn cause the games to become budget titles
They eventually got the idea of what ppl wanted with forces, but it was an extremely mediocre budget title that came out at the worst time for a game like that, so that game didn’t do very well
Mania was the exception to the norm for all of this
We then had TSR which got rid of all the crossover stuff and died the same week it came out
They now have another chance to build on the momentum they got going after the success of the movies and frontiers, to me the next open zone game will be proof to see if Sega is actually locking in with the games like they came to be
@@lemon5000-tj6nv You get it. Shadow Gens looks like it’s one of those rare occasions where they’re cooking. After that it’s the roll of the dice.
In a way, the Sonic franchise getting demoted to the "B/C tier" games category could be the best thing for the series as you said they've not been the biggest sellers in years (despite Frontiers being the best selling 3D Sonic game as a result of aping BOTW) where it can carve it's own niche and perhaps thrive in a indie game environment where there's less money and resouces as well as more restrictions where such smaller Sonic titles could invariably build a strong devoted audience through word of mouth and interest as well as being a decades old brand. I'd probably figure something like Sonic Dream Team but with more refinement and considerable depth (and being multi platform than just an apple arcade exclusive) would personally be an ideal starting point particularly with modern indie 3D platformers. Especially against the recent troubled issues within the AAA gaming industry, such a downscale could allow the franchise to find itself and maybe recement a new reputation through soild quality and engagement where it can truly succeed on it's own terms rather than trying to recapture the days of when it competited against Mario during the first half of the 1990s. Maybe, Sonic was never meant to be as big as Mario but it can be something smaller and be truer to itself. Who knows?
Sonic frontiers oddly is a brand that could easily go beyond BOTW simply because Sonic has a better idea of developing an open world by making it an amusement park, from bottom to top, with cool and stylish enemies. It just needs a lot more waifus, Shadow, and Infinite to cash in the waifu/husbando bucks.
More focused and affordable AA games would definitely be a good idea, I've really enjoyed colors and even parts of forces easier and quicker than frontiers
It sounds more like your issue is with Sonic chasing AAA trends than it being Sonic being AAA at all. If you just make a true and pure Sonic game with an AAA production value, maybe a little less, it'd be good.
When I saw the title.... Honestly it made me think not JUST about Sonic, but then 3D platformers in general.
I look at all the platformers that came out, how so many were actively made by bigger companies and had backing.
Crash 4, the Spyro Trilogy remake, Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart...
I would love a Sonic game with a budget to really make the game with such a scope, but REALISTICALLY, I couldn't see it do anything other than underperform, sadly.
I want Sonic to succeed, I want Sonic to be a household name again in spite of the history it's had. I would love to see a scenario with a bigger Sonic title that would make even the most basic Gaming Journalist move on from Sonic 06 rather than Sonic 06 staying as the eternal checkbox of every interview or critic review script, but I also need to be realistic about my viewpoint.
Ratchet & Clank: Rift Apart was awesome, and absolutely deserves praise, but the numbers don't lie. It didn't make its money back and Insomniac ended up not breaking even.
I can't see a big budget Sonic game really meeting that kind of expectation, much as I simply wish expectations from these companies would be tempered, but that's the world we live in.
Ideally, I do think Sonic should first finally fully focus on just guaranteeing that the games are consistently good time after time and that there isn't always that taking the word of someone saying it's a good game with a grain of salt. Once it does that, then the AAA talk can happen again, if it would still be necessary to have that talk once more.
Do most parents still buy their kids Sonic games nowadays, like Sonic Heroes might've? Especially given the series' somewhat poor reputation.
…yes? Parents don’t give a shit about IGN reviews from 2 decades ago, they just know their kids love the movies, Netflix shows and Apple Arcade games
It ain't the force it used to be. I guess some kids play Sonic mobile games
I feel like your outlook on this is just a bit too pessimistic at its very foundation :/
It’s not about imitating it can also be about trying new things - that when meshed with familiar Sonic elements could be very appealing and uniquely fun.
No matter what, Sonic Team will always be ambitious. I don't think thats changing anytime soon. And SEGA always want money. You have to realize that companies nowadays want money.
Nowadays? When didn't companies wanted money? It's literally the reason they exist, they're not ONGs. They give a service for money lol.
And why is being ambitious something that should change? It isn't bad. If SEGA wasn't ambicious Sonic wouldn't even exist, 'cause remember, Sonic's reason to be made was for SEGA to be able to compete with Mario.
I have to wholeheartedly agree with you man. Very good points. Random recommendation, a sonic game it is not but you love fast paced movement, fun gameplay, and time attack. So if you have never played it I recommend Katana Zero.
This is something I've been thinking about, too. Sonic is a niche franchise. Nobody talks about Sonic except for total nerds. The reason why the 2010s were so awful was because Sonic Team was chasing mainstream success instead of appealing to their niche audience. They tried and failed time and time again until it worked with Frontiers.
Now that they have money, Im hoping theyll take some bold chances again.
oh yeah, that way it can have
-battlepass
-forced walking sections that grind the pace to a halt
-incredible graphics and fidelity with super realistic artstyle that is uncomfortable to look at
Sonic Unleashed was and will forever be the one and only AAA game, the graphics were there, the cgi cutscenes were there, the story was there, everything was there. Its a shame it didnt sell as well and the reviews were horreoundous
Sonic adventure? adventure 2?06? Heroes and shadow the hedgehog are those games cheap
@@aymenjbaili Yes those games are cheap. AAA games back then aren't the same as they are now. For example Spiderman 2 for PS5 costed nearly 300 million dollars to produce. Triple A games really only came into existence when games went HD (360, PS3)
@@utopiasonline I am arguing from the perspective of its time also games sell more than before then I think it's a fair comparison
@@utopiasonline is breath of the wild and odyssey triple A I don't care about western games from big companies
@@aymenjbaili Breath of the Wild and Tears of the Kingdom are definetly triple A, each of them were in development for 6 years. Odyssey is debatable but I'd say it's pretty close to being triple A it's a graphical leap from 3D World, has fully animated cutscenes, cosmetics, 17 kingdoms, and is overall a polished game.
They did do this. The 2010 games weren't AAA games. They were $40 small budget games. But the reason why they switched was cuz they weren't received well. Colours and gens were good, but others like lost world, boom, forces, and TSR didn't do well
Forces did do well. Selling more copies than Mania. Superstars also sold more copies than Mania.
Do u ever have plans of reviewing the big sonic fan games for example like sonic robo blast 2
Considering the quality and success of some Sonic fan games, in the fan community at least, I agree Sonic doesn't need to be Triple A.
sonic is doing just fine
I think Sonic should focus on making consistently good games before attempting Triple-A projects. If we're still fumbling the basics, what good is increasing the scale of everything?
more than anything, I still don't understand why the Sonic team continues to look for the perfect formula for Sonic, which according to them will be able to erase years of mediocrity and stupid decisions.
The fact that they aren't wasting any time making a Sonic Frontiers 2 makes me realize that they probably want to make this style of gameplay the basis for all future Sonic games, and this way of doing things has always made me angry.
a person who loved Frontiers probably won't appreciate the classic 2D games and vice versa.
the dramatic thing is that this reasoning can be applied to practically every game in the saga, confusing the public who still today has not received a clear definition of what a Sonic game is, and this is a big problem. in my opinion the right thing to do at the moment is not so much to dig an indie niche for the franchise, but rather to learn to respect your fans and raise the quality of the games.
Why not turn Frontiers into its own series where we explore the concept of Sonic in Open Word?
why not hire talented fans and have them produce new classic 2d games?
why not dust off the Rush series or The Storybook series? and the other characters?
why not make little games dedicated just to them?
with this new mindset, Sonic could become much more than a good AAA game.
I think sonic should try being a AAA game some time again since it hasn't been since Sonic fricking Unleashed. You can be a good but small focused AAA game like Astrobot.
your insistence that frontiers is a botw clone has been flawed from inception, and taking it to the conclusion that sonic frontiers is competing with elden ring is genuinely absurd
I legit don’t even get it because Frontiers was clearly an under budget game that takes a lot more from Shadow of the Colossus, Metal Gear Rising, Mario Odyssey, and even those games such as “get over it”.
Is there any mario game that would actually qualify as triple a? None of them come off as particularly high budget, at least compared to proper triple a games.
If SEGA can match the quality and enjoyability standards of Nintendo’s best modern AAA titles (Mario Odyssey, Breath Of The Wild, Mario Wonder), then yes, though that entirely depends on SEGA viewing the franchise not of a mascot series they can just cheaply outsource other studios to work on, but instead one that needs and deserves to be on-par with Mario and Zelda in terms of consistent quality output.
if you're reading this, play Freedom Planet 2
No.
Personally I think the gaming side of franchise needs a hard reset. If the people making the games can barely make a AA game like Forces or Frontiers maybe it's time to consider scaling everything back. A simpler more stylized art style, more focused level design, maybe even a return to 2D if need be.
I'd also like the continuity to be completely rebooted at this point. There have been too many cooks in the kitchen and nothing makes sense anymore and haven't made sense for over a decade at this point.
And to anyone who thinks a complete reboot is overboard and thinks a soft reboot would be better... You do realize that 06, Unleashed, Colors, Forces, and Frontiers were all soft reboots and are the exact reason why everything is so screwy. I just feel like they need to start over at this point.
While I personally wouldn’t have a problem with this direction might even be a little curious to see what they do ,you do realise that this decision would cause controversy and backlash ?
@@2ndspringtube708 At this point anything is going to cause some controversy. Although if my hypothetical happened (and it ended up being good) I feel like most would forgive the drastic changes.
I feel like a reboot has a lot of potential. Personally though, I wouldn't want anything like Boom or the live action movies. Just a new universe sorta similar to the old one where we can have a fresh start again and try some new ideas.
Forces was a soft reboot?
@@isaacfields7923 not as much as wiping out all of thier favourite sonic games for a new reboot ,that would be a huge contervsay even if it was good ,especially after how most of sonic fans are alright with frontiers story and the lore currently,for me I think their best option is just like what they did early on,not really having a continuity or something,every game having its own bubble fully
I think it also has to do with platformers in general not being as huge as they were, nowadays they seem to be more of a niche thing unless it's a Nintendo IP like Mario or Donkey Kong. Astro Bot was released recently, it was critically acclaimed, everyone who played that game loved it, but apparently it's not selling very well.
really? i looked up its sales and all the headlines are saying that astro bot is doing pretty good sales wise, apparently it’s the fastest selling platformer from the last 10 years that isn’t mario. that’s especially impressive considering games like the n sane trilogy came out in that period and did incredibly well. it’s apparently at #2 in the sales charts everywhere, only being beaten by nba 2k25 (which always does crazy numbers) and space marines 2 (warhammer is an established franchise with a lot of fans) depending on what country you’re looking at
@@Shrekinspace It's confusing, some headlines are saying Astro Bot is selling well, others claim it's not doing so hot. I remember seeing a tweet from Chris Dring saying its sales "aren't huge" and that it sold less than Ratchet & Clank Rift Apart. I hope it's actually selling well cause it could bring a ressurgence in platformers.
@@CanalDoRyu i think that might have changed because i’ve seen that it’s selling better than rift apart. probably started out selling less but word of mouth has increased sales
Huh, maybe Sonic was never AAA. It always did well with a small team making AA games and making AAA money.
unleashed felt triple aaa
@@Safalmao 06 and Unleashed might have been the only time they went AAA.
@@HyperSonic1999orJTH frontiers, was close but didn't feel triple a, looked like it tho.
I totally agree with you, they can make a sonic unleashed (daytime) game with 9-10 levels, missions that take place in pieces of the levels and sell it for 40$.
Oh so there's 1/5 of the playerbase who doesn't like boost gameplay? That's fine then, just make another game focused only on 2d or only in platforming, don't try to shove in every single sonic style in a 3A game, just... yknow, make more games xD
I mean like... there's not too much games that don't take things from other games now a days, look at cyberpunk, god of war, spider man. They have their things, but they take some characteristics from other games. So why Sonic can't do the same and put his unique things ? ( 'cause, cyberpunk is basically a GTA but in 2077, and with is own things, Spider Man is a open world game, but with Spider Man there, like, what sells a open world Sonic game is that it's a open world Sonic game, and the same thing happen with spider man. it's a open world Spider Man game, that's what turns the game unique)
So a Sonic game can’t be marketed just as a Sonic game while Shadow can?
Allegedly.
We'll see how well Shadow Gens does. I am pretty certain it won't sell nearly as well as Frontiers.
Shadow also can't. Sonic X Shadow Generations is clearly a low budget movie tie-in game.
@@joe_mama__ fot a low buget game SHI LOOKS GOOD
@@JtMz-e8v you don't need a high budget in order to make a good game. Indie games are a good example of that.
Sonic unleashed and frontiers and o6 are in my heart
Well I guess I can feel less weird or bad for having similar feelings. For a long time I have said that this idea of that Sonic needs to be "held to the standard of games like Mario or Zelda rather than taken on its own merits for what it is is an attitude that is sabotaging the series rather than helping it. At their core, Sonic games are not mass appeal type games. They are a niche within a genre that itself is already not the most popular anymore in this day and age, and as a result, Sonic is mostly pushed for branding factors rather than the core gameplay elements.
That said, there is probably an argument to be made that this was always the case.
Sonic is hardly the only brand with similar issues either. I personally wouldn't mind we treat Sonic as, at best, a AA level series for the time being if I'm being honest and worry about whether or not it reaches "AAA" level when or if it ever reaches such a thing, assuming we even want that given my overall issues with the AAA and now AAAA development culture as is.
I'll give you a short answer and a short answer only.
No.
I think you're wrong when you say sonic frontiers popularity is because it was a botw rip off it sold well cuz it came after sonic movie 1 its recent peak with general audiences. If sonic can make 3 back to back great games they could easily break 10 mil downloads because sonic is iconic
I mean games like Astrobot have shown that you don’t need tons of money put into a game and how platformers can still be popular
I feel like story book game remakes would do well as AAA games especially black knight, if you switch between like a souls like fast paced combat then to speed and maybe a mix of both
Sega said mania’s current sales are comparable to that same years crash N-same trilogy (and that game sold 20 million copies) so it’s safe to say mania over the years made it to the 10 million mark through sales and bundles
Im not done with the video but i feel the need to chime in abt that Freedom Planet 2 segment. I quite frankly just think that game had a bad marketing cycle on top of the development taking this long after the announcement. I saw many ppl suprised it was even out back when it released. Same thing with PBB which shadow dropped tho ur theory applies much more to that game i feel
I just wish they would give sonic the same effort that Yakuza gets. The company clearly treats sonic more like crap than some of their other IPs which really is a shame
so what they did with Gens and Colors basically? something like that?
Yeah. Or even Shadow Gens seems to be in the right ballpark. But we know that there is a much bigger game coming in the sequel to Frontiers. That one, I'm more skeptical about.
Hmm I don't really get what ur trying to say sonic has already been doing this for years. Games like gens, secret rings, black knight, forces, mania are all small focused sonic games definitely not triple A. Its only after they trusted sonic with a slightly bigger budget for sonic frontiers that they got rewarded with a well selling sonic game
This all just stems out of sega and sonic team's incompetence. Just look at Mario, realistically, a fat italian plumber isn't really that appealing. The reason Mario games sell well it's because the games are good, and they have been ever since the NES.
If Sega actually gave a fuck and gave Sonic team enough time and resources back in the 06 era, we would be telling an entire different story, in that universe, Sonic games have always been good, and they have always sold well. You just can't expect a franchise that has made so many mistakes to still be seen as good and selling as well as before.
Realistically, how many people didn't play frontiers because they heard about how bad is sonic forces? How many people didn't play frontiers because they heard about sonic boom? Sonic 06? Hell, even the good games like the adventure ones and unleashed have a really bad reputation because all of these bad games and bad decisions surround them.
Sonic has enough appeal to sell even better than mario, but when people have been told again and again and again that sonic sucks, they start to believe it.
Sonic games don't need to be AAA, but they could be.
Yes