Cant tell you how happy i am to hear you on here again Zack, all the other guys are wonderful but its just not quite right without you with them. I gotta say, as someone that has watched everything done on the site since it started, for some reason every time i see the factory in the build area, my brain just goes "where the hell did that thing come from?!" lol every time.. Thank you guys so much for this channel.
Hot staging does not promote rapid re-use. Hardware to Jettison the hot ring could well replace hot staging and serve as drive stage separation itself.
Another great episode. My guess for the location of the new launch mount is south of the tower because it's in the small strip of land for which SpaceX needed army corps of engineers approval to fill in. This would not be required if they planned on having the OLM east of the tower as a catch basin is the only infrastructure required in that area an even it would fit on their existing land. Another reason is that SpaceX's more recent strategy for shielding ground support equipment from launches seems to be putting everything behind the tower as seen at LC 39a and with the deluge tank farm on pad A. For an OLM south of the new tower basically all of the area of the suborbital tank farm as well as the newly filled in area is shielded and could house the ground support equipment while an OLM east of the tower would basically be at the center of the redeveloped area with only a tiny area west of the tower being shielded.
👍 Excellent show, all. I was told in chat that the HSR has a negligible impact on payload. I would think that 10 tons of lost payload would sting quite a bit.
The hot stage adds inertia to the top of the rocket, this makes it harder for the grid fins to change the angle of the booster. The hot stage was a retrofit and it’s likely they did not design the grid fins with enough control authority for the extra inertia. New booster will be lighter and the fins will be designed with enough control authority.
I doubt booster 11 is lighter than booster 10. So if SpaceX did jettison the hot ring for IFT-3 then obviously the problems the grid fins had with booster control were had nothing to do with the hot stage ring. But if the hot stage ring wasn't jettisoned on IFT-3 then doing so on IFT-4 might help. Yes by jettisoning the hot stage ring. Starship can't be considered fully reusable. Temporary problem hopefully. In order to not need to jettison the hot stage ring SpaceX will need likely multiple changes to the future booster design. Such as possibly a larger landing tank as you mentioned.
An underground tank farm could have some really great benefits in my opinion. When it comes to leaks, i had the same idea as Zack, just have it continually vacated which also allows you to have detectors on the out flow so you can keep a much closer eye on any leaks then you could in open air since 100% of the air around the tanks must pass through this. If there is a leak they could have CO2 on standby to fill the area making it safe, this would be much better imo then nitrogen since its heavier then both air and methane and therefore will shove it all out of the top and secure the tank area. This would also be an option for a passive setup, keep the entire farm filled with CO2, it wont come out since its heavier and make it a non combustible area at the same time.
The groundwatertable at that place is very high, only some feet under the terrain surface. So the hydrostatic uplift of any underground construction would be enormous, especially if the construction spans over some acres like the current orbital tank farm. The constructional efforts to compensate that uplift would be absurd.
Very hard to imagine why they would want more filtration in the tank. Surely, the tank is clean before being loaded with a pure fluid. Surely, what they want in the tank is more baffles to stop fluid sloshing as the vehicle experiences various accelerations.
It would be easy to modify the deluge plate to have a bolt on cover that gets replaced as it erodes. That would be easier to maintain then flame trench system like at Massies.
Per Kathy Lueders at the speech at Harlingen that all tours (they give tours to students too) will be postponed until after October when construction is not as pervasive. A tour right now will be out of date in weeks, I’m sure Elon will do one with Tim when starfactory and tower 2 is complete
1:47 An undergroung tank farm?. How about a pool tank farm. Have a large sunken pool like structure, with the tanks in. If a Boosrer RUD then debris will not penitrate the water, if it did, gas would burn on top of the water & not explode the tanks?.
Tinfoil hat time. What if spacex found a loophole for the small plot of land next to star factory that has been dragging on in court. If they fully surround it in buildings it becomes inaccessible and they can claim ownership somehow
2:31:54 so right now you have a tiny headertank with 3m diameter and then massive horizontal baffle plates that cover the entire 9m diameter and have relatively low functionality?so the next step is then to make the entire bottom of the lox tank the lox-header tank so that there is no more need for baffle plates?
Will they use a crane to drop in a booster or sn to simulate a soft landing on the chop sticks? This way they can practice with multiple catches and upgrade what’s needs without blowing up the pad
No chance honestly, a crane means a person and they would never do that with a person near by. It also risks an absurdly expensive crane that isnt theirs. Also it wouldnt really teach them much of anything, the booster has to put itself into the position under its own power, that can only be tested with the real deal. They will just get some confidence it can do it then, well, do it.
How deep is the Gulf at the point 20 miles off shore? Way less that 70 meters deep. More like 30 meters deep. They can’t leave it there stuck in the mud.
I dont think they are forgetting those things honestly. Those upgrades are suppose to go towards upgrading the booster, not making it finally reach the sub par goal that would be todays performance if it didnt have all the extra weight.
Are they going to collect all that water from the new roof area at star ship factory, instead of trucking it in, did you see anything built to collect water when they were building it.
It all goes to a large discharge pipe leading straight out into the lowlands right behind the factory. Seems like a good idea though, but last time ive heard anything about catching rain water for use was this big ole legal nonsense. I dont know why its so heavily looked down on in the laws eyes.
Great to have Zack back as MC. Cannot wait for OLT2 (or OLT3 if you count the Cape) Truly frustrating to hear all the interruptions and poor audio associated with Lawrence. Hope that can be resolved before having him on future streams (made the conversational flow = Zack's vibe, almost impossible to follow at times).
In a way it would be cool to see when starship v2 is in a testing phase, that they do a test or two that will find the faults again. Like sn1, sn4. Tests to the extreme failure. Making all future ships 100% reliable no matter what. They have and are going to get all the data they need from the rest of v1 starships, f4-5-6 and 7
I completely agree that any new iteration needs to be tested thoroughly, but im not sure what you mean by SN1 and SN4? SN1 they just learned they didnt know how to weld domes, it wasnt a test to failure, just a failure. And SN4 was just a stuck valve which was dumping methane out until it found an ignition source.
@@Vatsyayana87 I get you, the idea was to test till failure but I doubt we’ll see that on the ground again and they did say something about using a newer material to build starships
@@Ch33ziTzsk8R A newer material? The stainless steel is a huge part of what makes it all possible. Do you recall what material? And where you heard that?
@@Vatsyayana87 I believe I heard it from nsf, it’s a newer steel they were testing and might use in future integrations but I’m not sure when we will see the first batch of new coils, less weight more strength.
As far as alignment direction for tower 2. It will be aligned like tower 1 with the vertices pointing in cardinal directions. NSEW. The face of tower 2 will be 135 degrees true. It appears that there will be no "legs" on launch table 2. "the best part is no part" and no more painting legs after every launch. A flame trench will be part of the launch table that will be at ground level or close to it and the SPMT will be able to drive onto the launch table with the booster and stage Zero. The booster and stage Zero will travel together from the build site and it will be plug and play at the tower for the launch. SpaceX will be able to swap stage Zero quickly after launch and relaunch if need be.
I and everyone else would like to know where you are getting this info? It sort of sounds like its just your idea of a perfect setup. I must say though, the mobile OLM doesnt make much sense to me. The entire idea of Starship revolves around them being able to catch the vehicles and immediately setting them directly back onto the launch pad. This will be happening in less then 10 minutes after launch. I suppose it could be possible that they have a pair of OLMs and whenever they feel its time to refurbish a booster they do the same on the OLM it came back on while bringing the new OLM and booster out for the next 10 or so launches. But ive never seen or heard anything to suggest anything of the sort. So is this something you have actual knowledge on (and can prove) or are you speaking guesses as facts which is the cardinal sin of comment sections?
I highly doubt that. The OLM is a massive, massive structure with so many systems baked into it that allows deleting systems from the booster itself. To have a traditional mobile launch pad like NASA uses would be a big set back and inefficient IMO. A ground based flame trench would need to be crazy deep as well. Painting legs is probably the easiest part of post launch activity so highly doubt they care about that enough to redesign the whole OLM.
Incompetence. The starship can hover.. litterally easier to catch than it is to land a falcon 9 on a barge in the pitching sea when it's thrust is much greater than it's weight
Look at videos of starship hovering... It's a giant Watertower just floating in the air super slowly.. all you gotta do is tell it to go somewhere.. then have it stay there for a few seconds while some arms close around it. If they bump the rocket then whatever.. the engines will just gimbal to adjust.. as soon as the arms are in place make sure everything is just about to touch and shut the engines off.. you watch. Catching starship will become routine and boring like falcon 9 landings
Only the incompetent tell Spacex they cant do something. There is nothing at all to say it cant be done. Honestly nothing suggests it would even be that difficult once they learn how to fly these things more comprehensively.
Cant tell you how happy i am to hear you on here again Zack, all the other guys are wonderful but its just not quite right without you with them.
I gotta say, as someone that has watched everything done on the site since it started, for some reason every time i see the factory in the build area, my brain just goes "where the hell did that thing come from?!" lol every time..
Thank you guys so much for this channel.
Another Great Starbase Weekly RGV! Thank you so much!!!
Great show - welcome back Zack!
Almost 3 hours!? Yes please!
Way better than the other ones.
Quack
Great to have Zach on the show. Not dissing any of the usual crowd.
Hot staging does not promote rapid re-use.
Hardware to Jettison the hot ring could well replace hot staging and serve as drive stage separation itself.
Another great episode. My guess for the location of the new launch mount is south of the tower because it's in the small strip of land for which SpaceX needed army corps of engineers approval to fill in. This would not be required if they planned on having the OLM east of the tower as a catch basin is the only infrastructure required in that area an even it would fit on their existing land. Another reason is that SpaceX's more recent strategy for shielding ground support equipment from launches seems to be putting everything behind the tower as seen at LC 39a and with the deluge tank farm on pad A. For an OLM south of the new tower basically all of the area of the suborbital tank farm as well as the newly filled in area is shielded and could house the ground support equipment while an OLM east of the tower would basically be at the center of the redeveloped area with only a tiny area west of the tower being shielded.
This is so much less tedious at 1.5X and skipping the intro. Glad to have Zack back, much less video issues with "local control".
I always watch the video at 125%. Honestly I can't even tell it's faster.
👍 Excellent show, all. I was told in chat that the HSR has a negligible impact on payload. I would think that 10 tons of lost payload would sting quite a bit.
Enjoy these views and the knowledge in these videos
The hot stage adds inertia to the top of the rocket, this makes it harder for the grid fins to change the angle of the booster. The hot stage was a retrofit and it’s likely they did not design the grid fins with enough control authority for the extra inertia. New booster will be lighter and the fins will be designed with enough control authority.
In the V2 and V3 designs, the grid fins are lower down and the hot staging ring a more open structure. So grid fin instability confirmed.
I doubt booster 11 is lighter than booster 10. So if SpaceX did jettison the hot ring for IFT-3 then obviously the problems the grid fins had with booster control were had nothing to do with the hot stage ring. But if the hot stage ring wasn't jettisoned on IFT-3 then doing so on IFT-4 might help.
Yes by jettisoning the hot stage ring. Starship can't be considered fully reusable. Temporary problem hopefully.
In order to not need to jettison the hot stage ring SpaceX will need likely multiple changes to the future booster design. Such as possibly a larger landing tank as you mentioned.
An underground tank farm could have some really great benefits in my opinion.
When it comes to leaks, i had the same idea as Zack, just have it continually vacated which also allows you to have detectors on the out flow so you can keep a much closer eye on any leaks then you could in open air since 100% of the air around the tanks must pass through this.
If there is a leak they could have CO2 on standby to fill the area making it safe, this would be much better imo then nitrogen since its heavier then both air and methane and therefore will shove it all out of the top and secure the tank area.
This would also be an option for a passive setup, keep the entire farm filled with CO2, it wont come out since its heavier and make it a non combustible area at the same time.
The groundwatertable at that place is very high, only some feet under the terrain surface. So the hydrostatic uplift of any underground construction would be enormous, especially if the construction spans over some acres like the current orbital tank farm. The constructional efforts to compensate that uplift would be absurd.
Very hard to imagine why they would want more filtration in the tank. Surely, the tank is clean before being loaded with a pure fluid. Surely, what they want in the tank is more baffles to stop fluid sloshing as the vehicle experiences various accelerations.
It would be easy to modify the deluge plate to have a bolt on cover that gets replaced as it erodes. That would be easier to maintain then flame trench system like at Massies.
i dont think we'll see an EDA tour any time soon. Tim said hes been trying to contact Elon but he's been very vague with timelines.
Per Kathy Lueders at the speech at Harlingen that all tours (they give tours to students too) will be postponed until after October when construction is not as pervasive. A tour right now will be out of date in weeks, I’m sure Elon will do one with Tim when starfactory and tower 2 is complete
If the filters are getting clogged, the fuel is too cold. Get rid of the the Hippos :-)
1:47 An undergroung tank farm?. How about a pool tank farm. Have a large sunken pool like structure, with the tanks in. If a Boosrer RUD then debris will not penitrate the water, if it did, gas would burn on top of the water & not explode the tanks?.
Pool and palm trees move underground for launch..... Thunderbirds are go
Tinfoil hat time. What if spacex found a loophole for the small plot of land next to star factory that has been dragging on in court. If they fully surround it in buildings it becomes inaccessible and they can claim ownership somehow
and i beleive second POM will have a part flame trench system to allow lower full stack height with version 3 ships
2:31:54 so right now you have a tiny headertank with 3m diameter and then massive horizontal baffle plates that cover the entire 9m diameter and have relatively low functionality?so the next step is then to make the entire bottom of the lox tank the lox-header tank so that there is no more need for baffle plates?
What makes you think there will be a "long delay" after flight 4 and 5 ? What is yr reasoning behind that?
If they move Hoppy ( God for bid)) they could put him in front of the office block, & use it as an Fire Tank system for Office block?
Will they use a crane to drop in a booster or sn to simulate a soft landing on the chop sticks?
This way they can practice with multiple catches and upgrade what’s needs without blowing up the pad
No chance honestly, a crane means a person and they would never do that with a person near by. It also risks an absurdly expensive crane that isnt theirs. Also it wouldnt really teach them much of anything, the booster has to put itself into the position under its own power, that can only be tested with the real deal.
They will just get some confidence it can do it then, well, do it.
How deep is the Gulf at the point 20 miles off shore? Way less that 70 meters deep. More like 30 meters deep. They can’t leave it there stuck in the mud.
That guys internet is awful. every time he spoke the audio cut out. lol
hey with heavy booster weigh changes you seam to forget differences in changing to electrix ramps from no oil hydro and tanks ,engine ramps pumps
I dont think they are forgetting those things honestly. Those upgrades are suppose to go towards upgrading the booster, not making it finally reach the sub par goal that would be todays performance if it didnt have all the extra weight.
Are they going to collect all that water from the new roof area at star ship factory, instead of trucking it in, did you see anything built to collect water when they were building it.
It all goes to a large discharge pipe leading straight out into the lowlands right behind the factory.
Seems like a good idea though, but last time ive heard anything about catching rain water for use was this big ole legal nonsense. I dont know why its so heavily looked down on in the laws eyes.
Wow, what a waste. I live in Australia, and we save as much water from roofs even in cities. What a waste.
@@Vatsyayana87 Are they allowed to use water from the Rio Grande for the deluge system at Massey‘s?
Every time "um" is said, drink. You will likely die.
Zack is back Yakidy Yak
don't look back
Great to have Zack back as MC. Cannot wait for OLT2 (or OLT3 if you count the Cape)
Truly frustrating to hear all the interruptions and poor audio associated with Lawrence. Hope that can be resolved before having him on future streams (made the conversational flow = Zack's vibe, almost impossible to follow at times).
In a way it would be cool to see when starship v2 is in a testing phase, that they do a test or two that will find the faults again. Like sn1, sn4. Tests to the extreme failure. Making all future ships 100% reliable no matter what. They have and are going to get all the data they need from the rest of v1 starships, f4-5-6 and 7
I completely agree that any new iteration needs to be tested thoroughly, but im not sure what you mean by SN1 and SN4? SN1 they just learned they didnt know how to weld domes, it wasnt a test to failure, just a failure. And SN4 was just a stuck valve which was dumping methane out until it found an ignition source.
@@Vatsyayana87 I get you, the idea was to test till failure but I doubt we’ll see that on the ground again and they did say something about using a newer material to build starships
@@Ch33ziTzsk8R A newer material? The stainless steel is a huge part of what makes it all possible. Do you recall what material? And where you heard that?
@@Vatsyayana87 I believe I heard it from nsf, it’s a newer steel they were testing and might use in future integrations but I’m not sure when we will see the first batch of new coils, less weight more strength.
Elon mentioned it in a tweet that they have developed a new steel alloy much stronger than the current.@Vatsyayana87
That flame trench with Ship. Can SpaceX also use it for Booster static fire?
They (most likely) won’t
No 33 raptor engines would destroy the ship test stand
A booster would eventually destroy the setup.
Only the OLMs can handle a booster getting spicy.
they dont need to if you have a launch pad.
As far as alignment direction for tower 2. It will be aligned like tower 1 with the vertices pointing in cardinal directions. NSEW. The face of tower 2 will be 135 degrees true. It appears that there will be no "legs" on launch table 2. "the best part is no part" and no more painting legs after every launch. A flame trench will be part of the launch table that will be at ground level or close to it and the SPMT will be able to drive onto the launch table with the booster and stage Zero. The booster and stage Zero will travel together from the build site and it will be plug and play at the tower for the launch. SpaceX will be able to swap stage Zero quickly after launch and relaunch if need be.
I and everyone else would like to know where you are getting this info? It sort of sounds like its just your idea of a perfect setup.
I must say though, the mobile OLM doesnt make much sense to me. The entire idea of Starship revolves around them being able to catch the vehicles and immediately setting them directly back onto the launch pad. This will be happening in less then 10 minutes after launch.
I suppose it could be possible that they have a pair of OLMs and whenever they feel its time to refurbish a booster they do the same on the OLM it came back on while bringing the new OLM and booster out for the next 10 or so launches.
But ive never seen or heard anything to suggest anything of the sort.
So is this something you have actual knowledge on (and can prove) or are you speaking guesses as facts which is the cardinal sin of comment sections?
I highly doubt that. The OLM is a massive, massive structure with so many systems baked into it that allows deleting systems from the booster itself. To have a traditional mobile launch pad like NASA uses would be a big set back and inefficient IMO. A ground based flame trench would need to be crazy deep as well. Painting legs is probably the easiest part of post launch activity so highly doubt they care about that enough to redesign the whole OLM.
👍👍👍🇮🇳
Uhm uhm uhm
Yep
you pop tarts are burnt up if you think they are going to catch anything out of the air.
Incompetence. The starship can hover.. litterally easier to catch than it is to land a falcon 9 on a barge in the pitching sea when it's thrust is much greater than it's weight
Look at videos of starship hovering... It's a giant Watertower just floating in the air super slowly.. all you gotta do is tell it to go somewhere.. then have it stay there for a few seconds while some arms close around it. If they bump the rocket then whatever.. the engines will just gimbal to adjust.. as soon as the arms are in place make sure everything is just about to touch and shut the engines off..
you watch. Catching starship will become routine and boring like falcon 9 landings
@@KamalaChameleon ish but yeah.
Only the incompetent tell Spacex they cant do something. There is nothing at all to say it cant be done. Honestly nothing suggests it would even be that difficult once they learn how to fly these things more comprehensively.
Let's revisit this post in 5 years.
Why are the commentators talking over each other? very disconcerting! Get with it - you guys are better than that !