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- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 27 ส.ค. 2024
- Tanks in Operation Bagration
With Steven Zaloga
Operation Bagration Week
• Operation Bagration
Part of our ongoing Eastern Front series on WW2TV
• Eastern Front Week
Also part of our 80th Anniversary Series
• 80th Anniversary Special
Operation Bagration, the 1944 summer campaign on the Russian Front, has been called “Hitler's Greatest Defeat.” The operation involved substantial tank and armored vehicles on both sides but the German forces were severely hampered by the transfer of dozens of Panzer divisions to France to repel an expected Allied invasion. Forced to make hard decisions, German tank forces in the central Belarus sector were weak compared to the heavy concentration of Panzers in northern Ukraine. The Red Army exploited this vulnerability, crushing Army Group Center, and pushing beyond the Soviet frontier into Poland and East Prussia. With this crucial victory secured, the Red Army conducted successive offensives beyond the Carpathian Mountains, arriving at the Vistula river in Poland, and forcing Romania to switch sides. The Red Army had embarked on a major tank modernization after the Kursk battles of 1943 and as a result, Operation Bagration saw the first widespread use of T-34-85 and IS-2 tanks as well as self-propelled guns. Germany’s Panther tank finally reached technical maturity in the summer of 1944 but small numbers weakened its battlefield impact, while other innovations such as the Tiger II heavy tank failed to leave their mark.
Steven J. Zaloga received his BA in History from Union College and his MA from Columbia University. He has worked as an analyst in the aerospace industry for four decades, covering missile systems and the international arms trade, and has served with the Institute for Defense Analyses, a federal think tank. He is the author of numerous books on military technology and history, including NVG 294 Allied Tanks in Normandy 1944 and NVG 283 American Guided Missiles of World War II. He currently lives in Maryland, USA.
Tanks in Operation Bagration 1944: The Demolition of Army Group Center by Steven J. Zaloga
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The Disaster of the DD Tanks on DDay - Omaha Beach (Amphibious Sherman Tanks)
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![ว้าว!ลุงบีมแบกทองมารับขวัญหลานกันยกบ้าน [cc] แดนแพทตี้ SS2 | EP.49 |](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/Osihq1OAs-4/mqdefault.jpg)
Back in the days when I used to buy books, anything from Mr Zaloga was a must have. Its good to have him back on the show.
The incredible Panzer density against the British Commonwealth in Caen was something I'd often heard of but never seen actually quantified. Never expected to get that nugget on an Eastern Front presentation. The whole presentation was fabulous - lots of fascinating data.
Really makes you realize a breakout really probably wouldn't have been possible without air supremacy. Also it may make more sense why Hitler and the OKR saw so much hope in keeping the beachheads bottled up. They probably thought that they were being extremely generous with resources to prevent a breakout. Rommel had experience fighting when the enemy has air supremacy due to northern africa.
Which would be signficant had Bluecoat not resulted in MORE opfor opposing Cobra than has the common wealth not done anything at all leading up to it
Don't let post war clean up fool you, sending your tanks in roman legion esc lines across open fields at a snails pace would be called fiction if it didn't happen, Somme 2.0 but even less forgivable
Steves presentation is outstanding, his knowledge, statistics etc. He talks and puts it over so easy to understand. Not reading off a script, to me he is a master in his field. Many thanks Steve and Woody
11:42 This chart really puts into the perspective the density of armour, in Caen it was like the equivalent of all the Panzer divisions crammed onto a football pitch as opposed to the East where German armour was a lot more spread out on a wide front.
Some notes on soviet units:
Cavalry divisions, unless formed from the Kossack people, were generally motorized, not horse transported by 1944
Another thing that needed to be clearly explained: A soviet mechanized corps had the same amount of tanks as a tank corps. The organizational difference was in a far greater amount of infantry. Some people might assume that they were similar to german panzergrenadier divisions with few tanks.
Finally, Just like the german StuG brigades, a soviet independent tank brigade was much smaller than a British brigade. They were almost always understrenght, with only 30-40 T34 or Sherman tanks, plus maybe 15-20 light T70 or Valentine tanks.
Additionally, regarding tank regiments vs brigades - the latter had some organic infantry (a battalion, so not a lot), while the latter might not have had anything at all. From what I recall, breakthrough regiments (heavy tanks) had a company of SMGs, not sure about “regular” ones.
An excellent job by Steve. The discussion about the density of armor on the Eastern & Western fronts was a real eye opener for me.
Yep, me too
I really got a sense of just how important the second front was to the Soviet war effort in 1944 with the comparison of percentages of AFVs committed by the Germans to both east and west fronts. One clearly sees how much the German Army was on the backfoot at this point of the war, but yet how deadly they were in the defensive. The importance of the STUG III and IV machines was also made clear. Great questions asked and answered.
While this isn't exclusively limited to just tanks, it still holds true for the armored forces of Germany in WW2. The western front saw German strategic reserves depleted, as the western German forces were already operating at minimal numbers. As the US and British armies began offensive actions, forces that would have been kept ready to reinforce weak sectors on the Eastern front were forced to deploy instead to the West, where the concentration of forces was notably weaker. As the Soviet offensives of '44 began gaining ground, it is not insignificant that many reserve forces that would have been used to bolster fledgling German positions were instead deployed to the West.
Where German reserve forces may have, relatively speaking, "halted" Soviet exploitation through the defensive line, they were instead forced to give ground or surrender as these reserve units would be stuck in the west until War's end.
Still remember the tiny diorama Steve Zaloga did of a destroyed T34 in braille scale, including all the interior and engine detail. A photo of it was in one of Shep Paine's books.
I always enjoy reading and listening to Zaloga and never fail to learn something new. For example, the lack of Panther tanks in Army Group Center in the summer of ´44 was startling to me.
Babe, wake up, WW2TV just posted
As always Steve Zaloga gives a fascinating and informative insight into his chosen subject, with little 'extras' like the concentration of AFV forces facing commonwealth forces at and around Caen. 👍👍👍
Steve is amazing with his data. Great stuff!
Wonderful presentation and discussion, thank you both.
31:24 I think we can all admit that the Jagdpanzer 38(t) was pretty damn adorable for an armored fighting vehicle.
cutebug would be better name than hetzer...
but hetzers gonna hetz!
Also important in the case of the T-34-85 is the addition of a 5th crew member, a loader. This allowed the commander to actually function as a commander.
Woody/Steve, Great presentation. Very interesting especially the Soviet side. Steve’s style of presentation made it very to follow. Thanks. Bob
I am unfortunately rater late to this, but there was a Hungarian Cavalry Division (1st Hussars) involved in the fighting around Baranovichi at the southern end of the offensive, who had with them an armored cavalry battalion, with roughly 50 "medium" tanks. Realistically speaking, apart from infantry support in a defensive posture (when you don't have to worry about enemy AT guns) they could probably only really deal with the Valentines mentioned by Steven, or something rather lightly armoured, like one of those SU-76s that may have gotten itself into a direct confrontation.
Surprisingly, a couple of these outdated tanks did survive the campaign, despite being involved in continuous fighting from Baranovichi all the way to Warsaw
is-2 was great doorknocker for bunkers and field fortification - and city houses if needed
Amazing show. Saved to watch when more sober. Watching now again. Thanks so much Woody & Steve. Great combo.
Another excellent show, Woody! Also nice to see Mr. Zaloga once again. (I have read several of his books from the good old days and highly recommend them to those who are interested in the European portion of the Second World War as well as the Cold War.)
I think the evolution of Soviet self-propelled guns and heavy tanks was one of the most important topics covered in this presentation. Their evolution makes a lot of sense, considering the kinds of constraints Soviet rifle division/corps commanders faced. Unlike the Allies or the Germans, the Soviets were not great in providing indirect artillery support for rifle units especially on the move. (This was extensively talked about in another show featuring Sasho Todorov.) This meant the Soviets needed something that could keep up with the marching riflemen while providing direct fire support.
Wehrmacht allocating so many AFVs to the West makes a lot of sense. Besides the issues like the size of the areas of operation and the availability of roads, it was one thing to take on typically leaner Soviet rifle divisions, but a different matter to take on US/Commonwealth infantry divisions which enjoyed significantly better organic and nonorganic support units by both the Soviet and the German standards.
So much information clearly presented by Steve Zaloga.
41:50 The ratio of t34/85 should not be considered rare in summner 1944, it was approaching or exceeding 50%, especially on the central front.
As an example, the 1st, 2nd, and 29th tank corps all had over 80% T34/85 tanks before bagration
8th had "Only" 60% T34/85, but that is because the other 30% were lend leased Shermans
Once taken into account lend lease dominated divisions, and independent brigades without t34/85, the ratio drops to the aforementioned 50%
While not as high on the central front, the 10th, 5th, and 5th guards had at least 50% of their strength as T34/85
This is from archival doccuments viewed on the Russian Pamyat "Memory of the People" digital archive
Fantastic discussion. Thank you gentlemen.
it is interesting how both germans and soviets found use for obsolete light tank chassiss in the marder/su-76 being quite similar in concept, even if actual usage was different (antitank versus infantry support)
I am somewhat sure soviets got the idea from captured stugs which are infantry support gun like su76.
Thanks
Thank you very much
Eastern front, always fascinating!
Excellent! Cannot wait to watch this one.
Thank you so much.
You're welcome!
Outstanding! Would like to see another video with the chieftain.
Great presentation. Nice one, Steve
Mr. ZALOGA..LEGEND !! BUY AND READ THE BOOKS FROM HIM IN THE EARLY 90'S, GOOD MAN !
👍👍👍Lovely! Military history royalty on one of the cult classics. I bet Steve's Bagration book has been on my shelf for nearly 30yrs - when all the old duffers were stuck on Normandy, the cool kids were doing Bagration. 🙂
18:50 ish. Being oriented towards defense is not why panzer divisions had more infantry than their western counterparts. The amount of infantry assigned to these divisions hadn't increased as the Germans went over to the defense, if anything it had decreased. The reason why German armored divisions had more infantry was because the Germans had virtually no motorized infantry outside of the armored divisions that could be called upon to quickly support the armor when necessary. The western allies on the other hand had plenty of transportation available to quickly move infantry that was not organic to their armored divisions when the situation required it.
Right - there were two infantry regiments per tank division at least from the beginning of Barbarossa iirc, so that wasn’t a late-war pivot
It's also that the German experience in the French campaign and preparing for the 1941 campaigns found that the pre-war Panzer Divisions had too many tanks to infantry. Hence the shift in 1940 (after France) to 2-3 panzer battalions, 4 motorised infantry battalions (in two regiments), an engineer, an anti-tank and an recon/motorcycle battalion.
They found that tanks needed infantry in the attack and that the 1935 style division was often unwieldy (similar to the motorised infantry divisions, which lost their third regiment in 1939). It was about force balance and as you said they invaded Russia and the Balkans with this arrangement.
TY 🙏🙏
Don't worry, I am just being picky. This is a really good presentation.
Lots of info. Great presentation.
Great presentation
Thank you!
Interesting that Valentine was seen as a light tank by the Russians, despite it's low speed
Thanks. Learned a lot.
Excellent..
Well. about reason to select 122 for IS-2 Steven is not quite correct. It was a set requirement for a gun to penetrate Pinter from a front from 1000 meters. And it was no effective enough 100mm projectile to do so at a time (later is)- it was a new caliber gun. So 122 was chosen as it did do that.
Same way he is not quite correct about Zis-3 gun. It was also main anti-tank gun of soviet army during the war. And Su-76 produced (same as light tanks) not a agricultural industry but auto industry. But that minor, idea is same.
Also when Steven saying "there is no good numbers" - I think he means pretty old mostly soviet era literature. I think those numbers much more available now.
And sorry, but Panzerschreck already in service already like for a year. Reality is that neither Panzerschreck nor Panzerfaust newer been a significant factor other then in urban combat.
Really good, Steve, but you keep saying '12 thousand' or '16 thousand' when I am sure you meant '1200' or '1600' with reference to tank numbers.
What he meant was actually 12 thousand I think.
Germany never had 12 thousand operational tanks@@Iolo1974
13:25 It should be noted that 4th and 5th Panzer were assigned almost full strength Panther battalions before being sent into combat.
At the same time, 8th panzer did not have its Panther battalion at the front.
I own several of Steve's books and copies of articles he wrote for different publications. Only 1 was a stiff, his "updated" M1 Abrams book from 2019.
"The Soviet equivalent of Overlord" - only on a much larger scale and with a far more destructive effect on the Nazi war machine.
What ocean did it cross?
@@UmHmm328 Overlord didm't cross an ocean; it crossed the English Channel.
@gnosticbrian3980
1. How'd the men and equipment first get near the English Channel.
2. The English Channel is probably just a little more water than the human mine sweepers crossed.
@@UmHmm328 The majority of the forces for the Normandy Invasion travelled from the southern coast of England about one-hundred miles across the English Channel to Normandy. The Mulberrys travelled from further afield in the UK.
The fighter cover flew from a variety of airbases in Southern England as did the tank busting Typhoons of the Second Tactical Air Force. Other kit was assembled in vehicle parks, ammo dumps etc near to the South Coast.
Bagration involved more than ten times as many men as Overlord.
@@gnosticbrian3980 What 100 miles of not very smooth water did Bagration’s Western supplied trucks drive over?
I'm only at minute 8, but it's definitely starting well
So, in that graph showing density pf tanks and afv vehicles in all front in 44, It was shocking to see the density of tanks so much higher in the British sector, like at least 4-5 tomes than other fronts.
But, doesn't that kassed density of tanks in such small sector makes it an easy target of both The superior allied air firce and the big guns of the navy amd flotilla stationed in protection of landing, infact it the reason Panzer counterattack failed to pushbthe beachhead into the sea back, but what I wanted to know, was Air power not taken into consideration by Germans when they knew Luftwaffe had nothing and Their massed tanks would get annihilated against Allied air power? Why would you mass so much tanks there? Sure, Romel wanted his tanks on beaches but Runstedat wanted to counterattack after the landing and not leave tanks on defense in beaches but both choices seem stupid because of air power.
Why didn't they focused more on building those concrete bunkers on high ground and manning them with elite troops instead of forced recruits from occupied countries? That for me seems a muchire viable idea to nullify the disadvantage in air power, were Germans stupid?
Where are they going to get elite troops from in 44? They just didn't have enough. The other point is, you don't waste elite troops in static positions. Their mobility and ability to dictate a battle on the ground is their best asset. With what guns in bunkers do on fixed lines, you don't need brilliant troops. The Atlantic wall was defeated by superior firepower
The eastern front is interesting as it is less covered and so new.
oh the tank master himself!
@1:09:00 Actually if you can make a program about the germans' defensive tactics it will be great...
Also, a program about the military geography of the bagration battlefield will be helpful. I have read that the region is full of swamps with a very limited number of communication axes. But nobody goes into further detail. (I am not talking about pripet marshes)
Check out yesterday's show with Philip Blood
@@WW2TV Oh ok.. I've seen it after I wrote this note.. Thanks...
no worries
Why did the Soviets suffer such heavy casualties during Bagration? The obvious answer is that the Germans were very capable, dangerous opponents even late in the war and in a very unfavorable situation like Bagration. Yet for some reason this can’t be said.
How does he get access to primary sources?
Steve lives very close to NARA and also used to have access to Russian archives
There is a ton of Red Army operational documents available only on Pamyat Naroda. And with the advances in text recognition/translation, it’s more accessible than ever even for those who don’t speak Russian. And by the way, all German NARA materials are now available online too in excellent quality!
I'm note sure all NARA German documents are online, but yes lots are
@@WW2TV thanks for the correction, I got too excited - with divisions, corps and armies there is quite a lot to peruse :) There is also a project that publishes German documents captured by Red Army, it’s obviously not as comprehensive of a list as what NARA has, but it may fill some of NARA’s gaps.
❤
It is defencive, so, they have "assault" guns.
Quite.
Sorry, Steve, you are right behind schedule with your statement about Panzer Lehr, as they were already in Normandy by june 1944, fighting with the allies from the 8th of june onwards...
Saying panzer lehr was in the west by november/december 1944, comes 5 month short...
You misheard, he literally said: Here's a photo of Panzer Lehr in Hungary of the spring of 44, but by the summer of 1994 they've been moved west.
Before you judge, please check you heard correctly
@@WW2TV you are right, my excuses to Mr. Zaloga, but unfortunately he spoke rather unclear. I had to re - watch several times at excepional high volume to get it.
But i don't like your unnecessary rude tone!
I am not judging, but you seem to do.
When i reply i do check thoroughly!
And strictly speaking i am right, as Panzer Lehr went into combat on june 8th, which isn't summer... And as Panzer Lehr was sent to the west/to france between 1st and 6th of may, it isn't summer either.
To say Panzer Lehr was in the west by summer sounds like a tautology.
On the other hand i cannot understand why Mr. Zaloga mentiones the 1st and 2nd SS Panzerdivisions, Panzer Lehr, 9th and 10th SS Panzer Divisions very prominent for their deployment to Normandy, which all had at least a distance of 50 km (Panzer Lehr) to bridge or had to be moved from the east after D - Day (10th SS Panzerdiv Hohenstauffen), but doesn't mention the 2nd Panzerdivision at all which was so close to the landings, it was in battle from the 6th of june...!?
2nd PD was a rather prominent unit with several outstanding achievements, like to be one of the first units to reach the channel in 1940, one of the farthest to moscow, enabled 2nd and 10th SS PD to escape the Falaise Pocket and was the most western unit during the battle of the bulge...
Not a unit to be completely overlooked.
I was not rude, I said please. BTW June is definitely summer where I'm from.
Also, please understand that 75% of first-time commenters on WW2TV are negative. People are much quicker to say what they don't like or disagree with, than tio say something positive.
Sorry to correct you, Steven, but you are counting the german tanks to high by a factor of 1000! It is 12 hundret, not 12 thhoutand and so on...
It is the surprising fact, the germans had so few tanks at all...
The slides were correct, Steve just misspoke - it happens sometimes
Germany engineering
What about it? Good, bad?
Sorry Paul. Just too technical. Couldn't understand a lot of the content.
Ah well, you can't please everyone, but you should give it a try. It covers the types of tanks each side used, what the concentrations on each front were and the losses etc. I don't think it was hard to follow
@WW2TV More of the in depth Zaloga type videos. If Peter Brown just found out when D-Day happened or what the East Front was, find a more beginner channel. 1 hr videos that cover huge tracts of WW2 are horrendous.
...ask the weather men, when summer is to start! - It is always around june 21st - sometime 20st, sometimes 22nd. Never june 6th, or june 8th and never, never may 6th! And i am sure this applies to scientists all around the globe. You can't change the planets.
So, this discussion is about summer in the ETO, which Normandy is part of yes? Where summer falls elsewhere on the globe is irrelevant. Thus Panzer Lehr were moved to Normandy in the European summer, which as defined by the UK Met Office is as follows:
Meteorological summer will always begin on 1 June; ending on 31 August.
The meteorological seasons consist of splitting the seasons into four periods made up of three months each. These seasons are split to coincide with our Gregorian calendar, making it easier for meteorological observing and forecasting to compare seasonal and monthly statistics.
The seasons are defined as spring (March, April, May), summer (June, July, August), autumn (September, October, November) and winter (December, January, February).
Case closed