ฝัง
- เผยแพร่เมื่อ 5 มิ.ย. 2024
- I translated and explain a clip from Bonchan's channel that I think will help a lot of intermediate players improve their ground game and footsies in Street Fighter 6.
Check out the original video here: • 「○○は不要」チャンボン老師による スト６基...
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Rushdown beats waiting to whiff punish, keepout beats rushdown, and waiting to whiff punish beats keepout -- that's how they teach it in Tekken.
You need to give your opponent a *reason* to throw out that crMK you're looking for -- which means you need to represent options that aren't just baiting.
Throwing paper over and over again waiting for your opponent to throw rock just isn't that smart. You need to mix some scissors in there to make rock an attractive option for them.
Couldn’t have said it better myself!
And yes, neutral is more or less the same in Tekken as any other fighting game so it’s def applicable here too
This is true on paper but in modern games is not possibile to beat rushdown with keepout. In Tekken 8 you can't keepout an heat dash, even in sf6 keepout a drive rush is not easy, if a neutral drive rush is covered by a fireball is quite impossibile on reaction. Said so Bonchan advice is even more important because the lesson in modern fighting game is...if you try to defend you are already in the way to be screwed
Yeah there's a fantastic video of I think Knee where he goes over this. Neutral is just rock paper scissors but more complex in the end.
Found it, it was Nobi, not knee!
th-cam.com/video/gZDkPzQxqXE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kGGmxbjavMl1H6Bn
This vid by krakatoa explaining it in gg terms is also great: th-cam.com/video/tjmnNbG0HAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=tRnIb-_VRgS6ULV4
And Sajam goes in-depth over the old gg doc: th-cam.com/video/bhkeXFusijo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kw9HyDTB5FoW0Fdh
Whiff punishing is very strong when you notice that your opponent like to preemptively whiff big buttons to stop you from getting in. For instance, I faced many Ryus that liked to use St hp buffer drive rush. That button has a ton of active frames and can convert to big damage. But it's also easy to whiff punish on reaction. That's when you focus a bit on whiff punishing imo.
Very true! That’s why awareness is a key part of being good
This is my biggest flaw. I feel like I always press 900 buttons less then my opponent. I mean it works most of the time but really good players just go ham on you. Its not just the case in streetfighter. I think newer fighting games all are going that road. Might have to rethink. Thanks for that video!
I feel I do this a lot too, especially since I main guile. I catch myself doing nothing way too often. Glad you found this useful!
Really this. In SFIV I had this terrible idea in my head that my passive way of playing was actually working and solid strategy. But I was constantly being destroyed by all other players willing to press more buttons and press me more often. It all got much worse in V and now in 6 I am starting to realize being passive most of the time just does not work long term.
@@AkibanaZerobeing passive isnt necessarily the problem, it’s adopting a playstyle that is inherently TOO risk adverse. Gotta take risks against players your skill or better
@@tmmlgaming5886 Indeed, that articulates my thoughts a bit better, cheers :)
I think it applies to older games too(well anything around the sf3 era i guess would be mosts cut off). You still need to move back and forth, fake out, make the opponent "do the thing". Our tools are just different.
Something to add to his advice is to think about what your opponents think you're trying to do and do whatever counters their response. That's what stops you from just being stupidly agressive.
Very true
Your first mistake is thinking that your opponents won't just unga bunga you
Good advice. I discovered this years ago with other fighting games, but it applies so much more to SF6 specifically. If you aren't pressing buttons, then chances are, your opponent is. (aka the only way to drop your opponents life bar is to press buttons)
And If he's not whiffing said buttons, that means you're blocking everything he's throwing at you (whether that be fireballs, normals, or a drive rush you aren't ready for) and you are the one losing drive gauge. Now his confidence is up because he feels like he's the one controlling the pace of the match, and if he doesn't feel like he's controlling it, he's at least breathing easy and doesn't feel any pressure. Too many dudes are busy playing SF6 like SFV essentially.
Couldn’t have staid it better myself
Even Punk, an all-time god of whiff punishes, mixes in neutral drive rush despite playing a character with a relatively bad raw DR.
If you're talking about Cammy she's a rushdown character so you have to get in there. Her walk speed makes up for a mediocre drive rush.
@@antiscrub She's less rushdown than normal in 6 imo because her mixup game isn't very strong, she's might be the best footsie character though
It’s the way to play sf6
@@antiscrubi don’t think you can call Cammy a rush down character in SF6. Her mix up game is incredibly bad. Her mix up options are very easy to read and the risk/reward is never in her favor due to her low damage output and again her weak mix up options. She also can’t stick on you like glue like she could in other games. Characters like Rashid and Kimberly stick on you like glue far better. Also making her only plus button being a 10f heavy really goes against her being a rush down character. She hits you with 2-3 strikes and now shes pushed out and her turns over unless you do risky moves that aren’t in your favor. She’s really more of stubby short range footsie character with rush down elements.
Love this! Thanks for translating and sharing
And thank you for watching!
Please do more translated videos like this
I’ll try to post more of these when I find something really good!
This is a really interesting idea, as someone who came from Strive where it’s hard to whiff stuff all the time, it was internalized to me that taking up space is sort of a whiff punish. For me, playing neutral/spacing in a way that allows me to enforce a drive rush/mix situation is “winning neutral” im trying to up my whiff punish game atm but I also agree with Bonchan here, making someone block something is powerful even if it’s not as flashy as a whiff punish
There’s an interesting way of thinking, I never considered the guilty gear approach
Guilty Gear has a bit of a different neutral, it looks a bit different there. You usually don't whiff punish moves there as you said, but you are using the airspace to make your opponent whiff a button.
There's a great short document, Sajam also made a vid about it, that goes over how neutral rps plays in GG.
Far buttons usually get beaten by airdash, airdash gets beaten by reaction and 6P, and reactionary gameplay gets beaten by dashing up.
Found it, it was Nobi, not knee!
th-cam.com/video/gZDkPzQxqXE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kGGmxbjavMl1H6Bn
This vid by krakatoa explaining it in gg terms is also great: th-cam.com/video/tjmnNbG0HAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=tRnIb-_VRgS6ULV4
And Sajam goes in-depth over the old gg doc: th-cam.com/video/bhkeXFusijo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kw9HyDTB5FoW0Fdh
Definitely gave me alot to think about! Thanks for the break down!
Glad it was helpful!
Thank you so much for this! So happy we have you to provide English audience with these tips and tricks that are often lost in translation
Thank you so much!!
Thanks for the video was really good, was struggling with something this helped, should do more of these translating vids... daigo
Glad it helped! I’ll see what I can do
This is great. I noticed that my play style is very reactive, so I am currently in the process of being more proactive with safe pokes and whiff baiting. This video could not have come at a better time. You are carrying me through the ranks, Chris.
Let me know if you’re able to climb the ranks after this, I’d love to know!
Great video Chris!
Thanks! Really happy a lot of people enjoyed this one
Thank you as always ❤
No problem 😊
Whiff punishing is harder to do in SF6 because they made your 2mk for example, 7-8f start up. In SF4, 2mk is around 5-6f on average, even when the total frames of 2mk between the two games are about the same. Capcom purposefully made whiff punishing harder in modern SF series, or basically tried to nerf fundamental skills like reaction and execution skills. They tried to do the same in SF5 with input lag, but now they just straight up made the start up slower and recovery faster. Not to mention the freaking drive rush system that skips neutral and skips hit confirming. Capcom just want more randomness and less reactional play.
This is why Luke's 2mp was so good in season1. Only 21 total frames and has good range and disjointed hitbox. Pros like Chris Wong literally just spam 2mp in neutral while buffering drive rush. Its incredibly hard to whiff punish it on reaction, you are more likely to get whiff punished for trying to whiff punish it.
love this, thanks for translating. another point that i find myself in is that if you're laser focused on whiff punishing, the opponent will just jump in on you and you'll be too focused on the ground to properly anti air. you have to adapt to your opponent and thats what i struggle to do.
Good point!
Great stuff
Thanks!
thx for the videos, watching it gave me some ideas too like whiffing on purpose to bait the whiff punish
Good video!
Thanks!
Another reminder from the FGC heavens to be more proactive and less reactive. Thank you for this translation/breakdown!
Absolutely!
Good advice overall thanks for being the messenger
Thanks!
bonchan is 100% correct in the beginning of sf6 i was very guilty of waiting for the button all of the time. this game really is about kinda presenting everything in neutral and really having that wide mental stack. Knowing and understanding your options at ranges and stuff helps a TON.
Totally agree and I had the same issuebmyself
That's a really interesting, opposing idea. From listening to commentary, and watching top 8s, it is very easy to walk away with the impression that SF6 is mostly about whiff punishes. But, thinking on it (and thinking on matches from some of the SF greats), I can see where alternating approaches is also important.
More stuff for me to stew on.
Glad I (through bonchan) was able to give you a different perspective!
Good video, you just can't wait for your opponent to make a mistake if they have a solid gameplan and know well which options are risky.
Random observation but late SFV had a lot of instances in which both players would wait at mid range during footsies anticipating the other player make a mistake. Perhaps this is one of the reasons why Drive Rush was added, to have an option that defeats "waiting for a mistake" since dashing wasn't enough despite being very fast in V.
Might be wrong though.
I agree - remember when ppl called it sleep fighter 5? I think that DR was made to avoid that happening again.
I liked watching high lvl SFV tho
Good stuff, definitely applicable to many if not all fighting games.
Really had this issue in Granblue, I so desperately wanted them to make a mistake that I could dodge or whiff-punish that I had basically zero offense. At some point anti-airing everything is no longer enough. You gotta have to take risks to put yourself into a more advantageous situation, or you lose because you have less chances than your opponent to deal damage and get knockdowns.
There's also a great video with english subtitles from Knee I think it was where he talks over his gameplay how he switches constantly between: whiff-punish, mixup and safe pressure. If you only play one way, you aren't playing a fighting game but just a reaction checker.
Link me that video with knee of love to see it!
Found it, it was Nobi, not knee!
th-cam.com/video/gZDkPzQxqXE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kGGmxbjavMl1H6Bn
@@Chris_FFound it, it was Nobi, not knee!
th-cam.com/video/gZDkPzQxqXE/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kGGmxbjavMl1H6Bn
This vid by krakatoa explaining it in gg terms is also great: th-cam.com/video/tjmnNbG0HAw/w-d-xo.htmlsi=tRnIb-_VRgS6ULV4
And Sajam goes in-depth over the old gg doc: th-cam.com/video/bhkeXFusijo/w-d-xo.htmlsi=kw9HyDTB5FoW0Fdh
another great vid Chris thank you! one thing im really weak against is against the very passive players but when i try to DR and get in theyre very good at checking the DR so it leaves me back to playing neutral
I have two videos on dealing with passive players but I’m thinking of re-doing them bc they are pretty old
Really feel that when I am playing Ryu.
Felt this HUGE trying out Akuma
Thanks, I figured this is my biggest problem right now.
Happy to help!
This is great advice and also what i find myself doing too much. Need to find some offensive pressure but it's not easy with Manon....
thanks for translation. Do you think you can translate more of his "fundamentals lecture" as you called it or was that most of it?
A lot of the topics in that video are things I’ve already covered on my channel. I’ll keep an eye out for more topics I haven’t covered
nice like this type of video
Glad to hear that!
dont wait and take pictures :) thx for the lesson
Thx for watching!
I needed this. I'm a player whos stuck in the old days of just focusing on whiff punishing and doing less. Ive platued heavy in the master ranks and need to open up my mind.
It’s something I’m struggling with as well - but not for long!
Bonchan is my favorite Luke. His style is how I imagine myself playing in the future.
Bonchan is solid
Yes agree
I'm pretty sure Punk agrees with the same line of logic that Bonchan explains. Watching him on stream right now and he shit on a 1900 MR Luke, he commented the guy is actually decent but his entire gameplan is to just to react and whiff punish everything. He said the guy would be way better if he played more like Noahtheprodigy. As much as people like to hate Noah for playing hyper aggressive and burning out, the answer is somewhere in the middle. You have to create pressure; if you try to react/punish everything its easy for mental stack to become overwhelmed.
Couldn’t agree more. Trying to find that middle ground is one of the hardest parts of this game IMO
I’m a combo-monkey so my thinking is bad compared to my execution.
This is a lot to think about! Great video!
You can do it! Practice makes perfect after all
It makes a lot of sense. It you're waiting for your opponent to whiff, what reason do they have to whiff something
Exactly!!
The similarities between this and Tekken 8 is wild.
Most modern fighters are going this route IMO
Whiff punishing is 1/3 of the triangle, not that you wanna be overly strict about that but as a guideline.
I would be very happy for anything you translate... I guess that's obvious but I'm gonna say it lol
Thanks! I’m a bit worried about doing it too often bc I don’t want to become a translated guides channel, but I’ll try to put this kind of stuff out when I find something I think people need to hear!
resonates a lot with me, now I wonder if that's the reason I lose so much in the game. I have the mindset of playing by the book because I understand I should win if I do. but I can see the vision on his point there
I don’t mean this in a disrespectful way at all, but I think what bonchan is saying IS playing by the book. New game, new rules
i get were he's comming from, but at least in my region, most players at 1500 and up check drive rush.
I think the main idea is not to drive rush mindlessly, but to do it at timing and ranges where it isn’t easy to stuff
This is actually what’s making Blanka so strong. Looking to whiff punish on a character who’s neutral is all over the place.
And his reach is wild too
Does that mean we should focus on checking the Drive Rush instead of Whiff punish? Makes sense.
so true, whenever I get into a game trying to "learn" footsies in sf6. I find myself doing nothing at all. as soon as the opponents knows that Im playing passive, they immediately go ham on me. Blocking in this game is a huge disadvantage.
I’ve fallen victim to this myself too
so instead of trying to play solid you should play like you're in the casino no wonder noah the burnout does so well
I think a more balanced approach (mena, gachikun) is probably better for most players to aim for
yo if you speak japanese and can make videos like these “translating” these jp vids i think that’d be awesome to see more!
I do speak Japanese fluently. I want to make more of these, but at the same time, I don’t want to turn into a “translation” channel. I’ll try to do more of these when I find something I think is really worth sharing!
What is bonchans binds for his extra buttons?
Sorry I have no idea I just translated a video
It's ok what your extra button binds?
Everything I fundamentally learned in FGs is going out the window it seems
SF6 needs to be played differently
if you are not good at whiff punishing you should play for a while just concentrating on whiff punishing. Same with any other skill you are lacking. It will not be ideal way to play long term but will build muscle memory.
I think battle hub is GREAT for focusing on parts of your game that you want to develop
Ur the best chris, or is it brian
I’m Italian-Canadian thus my name cannot be Brian
Let's go gambling!!!!!!!!!
How do you get the translations? Do you speak japanese?
I’m fluent so I translated myself
Ahh so as Aki its good that I just fireball drive rush or just stab or stmk the whole day. I understand in terms of risk reward, probably why Mena and Angrybird are so dominant, those guys go in, only Nemo is weird to me, i wouldve thought he'd be dominant in this game but maybe it's a character thing
Same with guile, you can bypass that aspect of the game
@@Chris_F cause the problems, never get caught trying to solve them, how fgc of this game 🤣
"If you focus too much on whiff punishing youre not doing anything to them"
Ah, fundamental neutral rps strikes again!
Love it or hate it that’s the way this game is played
Did you learn Japanese for this?
Yes I spent the last 8 years working and living in Japan just to make this one video!
I'm that kinda player who likes keeping pressure on opponent's guard. However, the only character I'm affraid to do that is Guile, cause his EX DP comes easily and gives so much damages. As consequences, i let Guile players keeping pressure over me with sonic boom loops + drive rush.
Guile does an AMAZING job of shitting down neutral drive rush just bc he has booms
@@Chris_F Now, i managed to deal with Guile players with Manon. They get afraid of her once i get at leat 3 medals. 🤣
Green man go fast
Laughs in deejay
This is one of the weaker aspects of my game, even against “worse players” I’m still in the SFV mindset of let them do whatever they want that’s unsafe and then punish them.
Which isn’t necessarily a bad thing, but I’m not imposing my gameplan on my opponents enough.
Well, now you have something solid to work into your gameplay!
-be aggressive in neutral, use your drive rush+poke, dMK drive rush...
Manon players:🤡
I think they’re happy with the S2 changes or am I wrong?
@@Chris_F nope but it another topic. Just point out that Bonchan logic only works on agro shotos(ken,juri, luke etc).
Also they all still top tier.
Just wonna say this is not universal advice.
@@Chris_Fzangief is sad when enemy backdashing cause most of his medium amd heavy button when hit send enemy away amd he has to chase the dhalsim again :(
One of the reasons I dislike neutral drive rush. The tension of watching 2 players zone each other was really fun to see in older SF games and I miss it in 6.
I miss that aspect too but watching people stuff DR on reaction gets me hype lately
Hmm, I really like the game but this aspect of it is a little disappointing. Simply making contact then canceling into Drive Rush and hope the opponent guesses wrong on the mix-up is a bit too much on the braindead side of things imo. One nerf I can think of that's still reasonable is to make it possible to Drive Rush cancel off of whiffed normals, as is already the case for light normals. Just expand it to medium and heavy normals too, so people actually need to at least hit confirm before getting insane amounts of pressure on you.
I'm also a little surprised they didn't increase the amount drive bars needed to do raw Drive Rush. 1 bar seems too little for the amount of pressure you get off of it. 3 seems a bit much, so I feel like 2 would have been the sweet spot.
This video perfectly articulates why i hate this game so much.
EVERY SINGLE THING leads to free pressure and its so advantageous to just always mash buttons and force block because of how offensive the mechanics are. You're rewarded more for constantly going in and not punished hard enough off jumping in this game. it feels similar to SF6 where offense is just king.
I really dont care if someone ex reversals me, they burned their drive gauge and im going to keep going back in because if i hit you its 40-60% and if you hit me with an ex its not a big payoff but if i punish that you eat punish counter damage. lol
I think it’s different from past street fighter games and that’s a good thing. I don’t want to play the same game for 10+ years
@@Chris_F It plays mlre similarly to 5 then to 4. SF this time around should have went back to sf2 feeling. Footsies and actual real character diversity.
Every character in this game plays the exact same and relies on the mechanics of drive feature. Its all crmk-drc, random drive rush in neutral, drive impact to combo, di wall splat to combo, every grappler awful drive rush, its the most watered down game ever.
Compare to sf4 and just play like Yun or Rolento. They both FEEL and execute VERY differently.
To me sf6 plays similar enough to sf5 where it feels similar in concept. Go in close range and hit buttons. Whiff punishing isnt as good, and punish counter feels identical to SF5 punishing a DP. Forgot the name for the mechanic i cared so little about that game lol.
Another issue is the "Big season 2 balance patch" didnt change how the game is played at ALL. Drive rush, the most important thing to change was basically untouched and DRCs are still super strong. They should have scaled more in damage like SF5s damage kept being reduced as time went on. The game plays the EXACT same still, but only now "Different characters are good at doing the things now"
Compare that to a game like SSF4 where turtle characters became meta or in Arcade Edition where dive kicking bevame meta.
Games uses to evolve and change with patches. Not with SF6. Its still the same lol
I see where you’re coming from, but I think the best thing about the street fighter series is that no game plays exactly like the others. I’m sure this pushes some older fans away, but it constantly brings new blood in which is HEALTHY for the competitive scene. I applaud the devs for always trying something new and different! The last thing I want is to play the same game for 10+ years
@@Chris_F The Drive impact system is nearly identical to SF4's Focus in every single way, except that its actually worse in every single way. lol.
It costs half gauge to cancel....but you cannot "fadc" special moves AND normals. in SF6 you can ONLY DRC normals.
Drive impact causes crumple...Focus Attack does the exact same thing and it doesnt cost gauge to do it.
Meter also doesnt replenish between rounds so you have to actually THINK about when and how to use gauge. It's not just given to you for standing there doing nothing. SF4 rewards meter management and knowing how and when to do something. SF6 gives it for free creating a YOLO experience.
I get SF6 tried to be "different" but all the game REALLY did was add green slime on the screen and give people a way to dash in fast to get + frames for no effort and made FADCS now advantageous on block and removed the execution barrier even more and increased damage. :-/
I'm sorry, but if you want low execution, thats fine, but just dont mix high dmg with low execution. They could have removed the "unique engine" crap and just made a new SF game with footsies and a 3 bar super gauge with a parry or custom combo option and just made a new age simplistic game that felt like old SF and it would have been awesome too.
Never forget when Alex Valle's Hugo annihilated Bonny's Sagat.
Great moments in FGC history
Bonchan also won Evo SF5
Basically what bonchan said is dont play neutral in this game , its not worth it . The game is designed around the RPS factor and 50/50 mixups so try to put your opponent in as much 50/50s as you possibly can . Makes sense , when you see Punk vs Mena for example , Punk always trying to play neutral while Mena puts him in 50/50 situations almost out of the gate .
there is no neutral in this game
Drive rush is such a trash mechanic