As a Steve main I’ve had this exact thought being the top tiers sometimes I sit there and ask wtf am I doing, yoshi has all this and I have…. bragging rights that I’m a hard low tier?
You said "Yoshi is difficult" in a video you posted 5-6 months ago. 😂 Now We not happy with legacy and generic tools? (Flash, df2, Spin & his one and only 10f string) What happened? 😆 Having a 72% win rate against Yoshi at TGS. I just wanna say: If you're getting hit by flash constantly, it means you can't stop mashing your flowcharts, forced mixups, and/or plus-on-block moves. To beat flash, all you have to do is actually learn the game and stop auto-piloting (in braindead mode). 1. Lab which of your strings can be flashed. 2. Delay or cancel your strings and flowcharts sometimes. 3. When you bait flash and he whiffs, you get a launch. Flash is -40/-44 on whiff and -15 on block. 4. Flash is nerfed compared to older games. RA has range and can beat Heat Burst/Power Crushes/Heat Smashes. After all, flash is a defensive tool with 0 range. Spin (which is nerfed now): His normal (SS) is trash-only better than Jack-8's and equal to the Bears'. Tons of moves that characters like Lili/Alisa can sidestep for free. Yoshi has to lose 8-18 HP to avoid. And because of the recovery, you can't punish everything like you would with a normal SS. Also, normal SS lets you sidestep and block. You can't do this with spin as it has longer recovery. And If Yoshi gets hit by a homing move while spinning, he loses HP on top of the 18 HP he already lost. 1,1: This character doesn't even have any other i10 strings! He doesn’t even have generic 1,2 jabs. 1,2 is -3 on HIT! 😂 1,2,1 is -16 with the third hit being high. He has no strings with lows in them, while other characters have mixup strings and i10 strings with up to 3 hits or more. Guard Break: 1 route can be avoided by holding back. 1 route can be avoided by recovery kick. 1 route you must stay down. If you stay down, Yoshi loses oki, and the total damage is lower than if he wall-carries you, which is why it’s rarely used in tourneys. This is the strongest iteration of Yoshi, but he still has many weaknesses compared to the actual top 5. Name one weakness for Jin-good luck. For a defensive character, Yoshi has a weak power crush. Other characters have: - Power Crush Heat engagers. - Safe Power Crush Heat engagers. Hwoarang has like 4 power crushes: One is hit-confirmable (& can go into stance). One is airborne, so you can't grab him. One is a safe high with fast recovery. Yoshi can't keep pressure applied. With very weak pokes, weak lows, and bad frames. Out of his 193 moves, only 3-4 are +oB, and they are slow-some are even minus on hit. No dick jab in 1SS. Weak WS punishment. Other characters can go into stances or forced mixups from fast, safe mids on block. or even lows. If anyone thinks Yoshi is top 1/top 2, go pick him up and let him carry you. Even Arslan Ash couldn’t get good results with him. He’s 100% not easy to pilot.
Nobody said he's easy to pilot , infact it was not mentioned in the video once , you honestly sound like you play against those blue ranks yoshimitsu i encounter , those that spam unlockables and b4 and 3 24/7 and flash , everybody has a high WR against those players because they suck at the game , either way you called the "main man" a guy who plays mishimas before u were born probably or at the time u were a baby a braindead man ?!! , not only you are disrespectful af you're trashing on a guy that plays areguably the hardest charchters in the game with dogshit strings and bad flowchart , characters that rely heavily on execution and fundamentals, comment truly represent the average yoshi mindest , if u play dragounouv and alisa and ling or any other top 5 , it's not the same as picking kazuya or lee or steve against yoshi , either way was gonna aregue about yoshi moves u discussed her and his oki "can be simply avoided" but you lost me when u said stop spamming your flowcharts against him , when in reality yoshi players all have a collective 56 def on average, it's actually funny , also says stop using flowcharts and auto piloting and then says , "flowchart sometimes" u sound like undercover yoshi crybabies that show on every video yoshi gets critisized on 😂
One thing is that He still has to be nerfed too much damage for the amount of tools we have, man. People want the wrong shit to be nerfed. (Although I have to agree that our oki is bullshit.) Another thing is I feel like people see him easy because of his combos, not the other shit we have to do. Just saying as a Yoshi main. Edit: Forgot about this. Nerf flash due him being able to punish safe moves.
@@seaweeds2895 Yeah i agree. But -8 moves are -8 moves. Wouldn't call them safe if there is a character that has moves faster than 10f We're just used to calling them safe because generally characters don't have moves that are faster than 10f. Like Xiaoyu b+1 and Yoshi. Still only works for specific moves where the opponent ends up too close to you. And i do agree it's super good.
So if i do a hatchet kick,then I want to use the frames I earned (ie BrAiNdEaD flowcharts)I should get punished for that?so I should just back up and let you do something after I risked getting punished?and you STILL have the ability to punish me If I want a follow up?seems fair to me😂you say try to pilot yoshi if he is so easy,go try and jet upper a wiffed flash, then get back to me 😂
Saying that Yoshi isn’t top 5 is severe downplay…he showed in the video that NSS his flash is a launcher. But it still functions as flash. Every thing you’ve explained might be true but him saying that you having these unique tools and doing loads of damage is still true. Your character plays his own game and the game he plays breaks the game which was held back by weak damage. That isn’t the case anymore. An I doubt most people who main him will continue after the nerfs IE DVJ mains
but it also doesn't beat all buttons like a rage art does. It varies from character to character, everyone should lab it and find their characters anti flash buttons. This way this matchup feels way less frustrating. It's mostly moves where the character stretches out his hitbox and keeps his hurtbox back. Good jabs, magic 4's, orbitals, powercrushes, even some throws, then you got very risky stuff like backswing blows for hard reads.
With dvj it's worse. If you enter mourning crow from uf1 on block, or heat smash you MUST go for punishable on block MC2 or MC2,2, because doing nothing makes you eat flash for some reason. And MC1 loses as well. At least now heat smash MC can be cancelled.
To everyone trying to argue why Yoshi isn't winning tournaments if he's so busted, have you considered tournament play isn't the only part of the game? I disagree with TMM quite a bit, but he's correct when he separates the game into four divisions: beginner, intermediate, high level, pro level. Pro level is so unbelievably miniscule in comparison to the rest of the playerbase, so stop hiding behind those players that you don't compare to to defend something. Akuma in T7 was busted af in tournaments, but you probably never had one blow you up like we would see on stage. Meanwhile, Marduk wasn't nearly as prevalent in tournaments, but he could delete 80% of your health off one launch; so was he busted? The answer is yes.
Facts. Tired of people trying to claim tournament this and tournament that when none of them or us are competing in tournaments. It’s irrelevant to what we’re talking about
Tournament play is the biggest part of the game. And the problem is, you guys aren't just saying Yoshi is strong, you are saying it's cheap, busted, almost like 'you can't lose if you play this cheap character'. So of course, people are going to constantly bring up the tournament charts.
My own take about this issue: tournament play is not the only part of the game, yes, but it is the most noticeable, the most prestigious, the most engaging, and the most part that got people's attention. yoshi is busted, yes. yoshi is among top 5 characters in T8, yes. but if he's not winning tournaments, he's not worthy to be nerfed.
@@TCGArsenal Such a dumb take. Just because they havent won a tournament doesnt mean that they dont need nerfs. Take DVJ for example, everyone called him stupid and requesting nerfs at the start of the game but he wasn't winning tournaments. Claudio is winning tournaments and yet we dont see any nerfs for him since people actually find him balanced. Lidia just won a recent tournament but she's considered mediocre/mid. You clearly dont know what you're talking about.
@@Darkknightrexx He is explaining how broken this character is I dont see him crying ,yoshi is so braindead you dont have to think when you play him ,you are mad cuz he called yoshi playstyle is so cheap
I seem to remember in TMM's character difficulty tier list video a few months ago, he was describing Yoshi's pressure as "fake" and getting caught in Yoshi's flash or oki set ups is basically your fault for getting hit by them and put Yoshi in Hard tier. I wonder if he has changed his mind in the last few months or if he still thinks Yoshi is a "hard" character but is strong nevertheless.
Schrödinger's Yoshi: Apparently he's way too busted to the point where he is a autopilot ez win character, but when you point out that his tournament representation is mid-tier they go "well duh, he's not easy to play so obviously pro players don't wanna play him".
I haven't had the opportunity to play Tekken 8 much since its release, but I agree as a Yoshi Main, this is a swing too far in the power scaling. I would like Yoshi to remain a top competitor, but with abilities and moves that are more honest. (Edit: 'top competitor' was a bit too much for what I meant to say. I guess all I meant was I want Yoshimitsu to be a viable pick for the players who enjoy his playstyle. I don't want him to feel like he can't do anything substantial against half the roster without significant luck is all.)
@@Crooked_Mantis I'd rather him be dishonest and have low dmg/wall carry then made into a high dmg but "honest" character. Right now he's completely busted
To be fair, characters like Yoshi, Jack and the bears are healthier for the game when they're bottom tier, they're gimmick characters and don't really play the same game as everyone else, and I'm saying this as someone who really likes playing Jack from time to time.
Flash is not the end all pressure tool TMM thinks it is. You, as the opponent, literally have to move into range for it to even reach in 1SS and if you do a move that DOES NOT extend your hurtbox into flash range then you can beat it clean by just doing your normal offense. I know TMM plays Mishima's 90% of the time so he probably gets ass-blasted because Mishima's gameplan is to force 50/50s by wavedashing in your face, thus extending your hurtbox into flash. Characters like Claudio are Yoshi's toughest match-ups because of his insane hit/hurtboxes. A good Yoshi will recognize when it's a good time to flash when they're on defense because you're so damn close to him. And if you're getting flashed after Yoshi does a string (ie 2,2 into flash), it's just a gimmick and easily baitable and punishable just like any other flowchart any other character can do.
Next patch: We have found that while yoshi is regarded as strong, he is functioning as intended. In light of this, we have decided to adjust devil jin again by reducing the damage of his launchers 😂
@@mirhamf2575 he's been doing this forever lol. Remember when some Nina destroyed his mental in T7 so he spent 3 days playing Nina shouting like a child "nina is so hard nina is so hard" and then made like 2 videos on why she is OP lol. TMM is a massive child regardless of whether he's sometimes correct.
The thing with Yoshi is a lot of bad players used to play him. It gave their ego an excuse fir being bad "oh well I lose because im on Yoshi hes so hard and tricky, etc, etc". But now they are dominating. They arent really sure why, they dont kniw enough to explain it. But in their mind, its not the character. Or they think they deserve jt. Its kinda funny honestly. This is the most broken character weve had since T5 Steve. Maybe worse honestly. If he isnt fixed youre gonna see him a lot more as pro pkayers start abusing with him.
As a Yoshi player, I remember hearing people complaining about how they 'nerfed' Flash and being bewildered at the outrage. Of course they had to make it not launch on normal hit; imagine the Yoshimitsu we would've had right now if they *didn't* nerf it, if this is the Yoshi we have now.
Actually we found out that the nerf to 1ss flash allowed us to use it as combo filler after basically every launcher, which added roughly 10 damage to every combo. If Flash always launched, Yoshis combo damage on average would go down. It was never a nerf, it was a buff in disguise.
I’m a king main and understand the complaints about king but some of this is just complaining. The window for flash is so quick that most yoshis I play don’t use it after a few misses. There’s a reason yoshi doesn’t make top of tournaments as much as other characters. There’s only 3 goated yoshis that make him look broken(eyemusician, sin, Kane&trench)
The reason doesnt make up top in tournaments coz yoshi players not good enough even with top 3 character. Let ma paint you a picture of tournament players. There is two types of players 1) Character loyalists, they play their character(s) despite current meta. All eddy or jack players for example are the ones who played em in tekken 7, its not meta characters to win tournaments. These type of players will not pick meta yoshi coz they play the character they like. 2) Meta players. Meta players like Arslan or Atif play top tier characters and switch em when meta changes for new meta characters. These kind of players usually pick most simple characters from top tier so they can learn em faster and switch to new one fast too. Yoshi is too complicated character to pick for meta player, so they pick easier to master (dragunov or nina for example). So these group of people will not pick yoshi too. By that simple logic the only players in tournaments that use yoshi is from first group aka character loyalists. Thats why there is not a lot of yhoshi players in tournaments despite it being top 5 in current meta.
I think discussion of his first class fundamental tools is equally important to understanding his t8 strength and why his t7 state was more justifiable. He still had many of these tools in t7 but wasnt such a complete package. T8 devs missed the mark.
I get why they'd want rage arts as a comeback mechanic so matches aren't over until they're over, but at this point now we have combos that do half life, recoverable health, heat to extend combos, and rage giving a damage increase, rage arts did not need to be in tekken 8, comebacks are always possible without them
Tekken was always a game where two or three mistakes would cost you a round. We have plenty of clutch comebacks even before rage. It was better because the player had to truly earn it.
I'd be fine if rage arts just acted like any other armored move and could be punished by your own rage art. That way if you have the read you can grab them, low interrupt or get at least a guaranteed punish on it if you're at awkward stage position.
They were never needed rage arts are a stupid mechanic rage damage is enough of a comeback mechanic on its own since they added heat they should've just removed it entirely.
There's a feature in practice mode to, without going to the pause menu and changing it manually, immediately reset the initial position of both characters to be towards the wall or against the wall, in case you didn't know. I don't the command in pc, but in ps5 it's press touch pad + X button + left/right arrow.
Maybe many of you don't think of it, but he have something what I call Yoshi's armor, if he gamble with high extension string, he ends in flying stance, you will get only float combo.
He was underrated in T7 as well. He had range , evaded a ton, and had all his unblockables. He might have been used in pro level but was certainly used in high level ranked.
I think giving him healing with NSS was a pretty WTF buff, even as a Yoshi main. I love soul stealer and how it's lore accurate, but I really didn't ask for it and could really do without it tbh.
Yeah, damage is higher than intended. Interestingly its a result of the flash nerf from Tekken 7 to Tekken 8. Players found very early on that you can dash flash after the vast majority of his launchers without really impacting your combo route, and get like an extra 10 damage due to its new behavior in 1ss.
The guard break trap can actually be countered pretty easialy, you just getup holding back, and it will miss for you to punish or you just stay grounded and take the hit.
Make the health gain for recoverable only... remove the tech trap and some oki options while lowering the damage a bit..., SOLVED the rest can stay (specially def options) to have it be strong and not kill the character and retain an identity
Risk of flash is eating a 70-120 damage combo (not taking into account extreme situations). Reward of flash is dealing a 50-90 damage combo. (again, excluding extreme situations). So, the risk/reward is quite insane indeed. What's more insane is that folks are still complaining about it.
@@Dr.Happy11That's a complete lie. Yoshi is the one doing 100 damage combos from a 6 frame unblockable. You very rarely launch flash and if you do it's with a low damage launcher such as hopkick. Flash is so quick you can't react to when it's actually vulnerable. 90 percent of the time it isn't launched , half the time it's not punished at all
@@shaghilathar3588 Have you not updated your game since like March or something? And the "rarely punished" argument is laughable past the Cavalry rank. It's like saying "I punish hellsweeps with ws4, please nerf harader-chan" and expect people to take you seriously.
@@Dr.Happy11 care to share your tekken ID? So if I can see anyone matched against you is pulling off this counter play that deal 70-120 dmg? Because I would really like to know
in 7:30 youre wrong, when yodhi has recoverable health he only recovers that, if what you said were true, the recoverable health treshold would have increased in your video example.
3:20 This is not guaranteed. You can stay on the ground and tank the guard break damage without the yoshi being able to extend the combo, or if you roll backwards the guard break will sometimes whiff depending on the timing of the yoshi.
Sword sweep is actually visually confirmable against a tech roll. There is no guess work, only reactions to when you should use sweep vs any other option. THAT'S the scary part about it.
Exactly, most of the noob Yoshifanboys downplaying him here doesn't even know that. The same applies to the counter play when people decide to stay grounded with his f1+2 which they can heatdash on reaction if they techroll to make it safe at +5... simply dumb.
Honestly I think there's definitely some tuning that needs to happen for Yoshi, but I really hope he stays just as strong. Out of all the characters to be busted he's gotta be the most interesting & entertaining.
Thanks for the video! Really glad to be able to learn all this stuff as a new player… Trying to play in blue ranks and get Tekken King and most of my matches are against Yoshi. As Steve the matchup is beyond frustrating
Lars is also a nightmare we cant do anything in our stances except den 3 whats the point when ur a stance character and all our best moves are locked in stances 😂
i accept that yoshi is strong as i was a yoshi main but he has his flaws too. i always feel like he is more susceptible to damage when compared to any other character in the game due to his stances. mostly he is always launched in his stances so the healing mechanism that yoshi has feel like its not a big deal when it comes to the damage i always think its always about how good you are with the character i am always ready to hear your opinions tho...
he does have weaknesses to be fair, it's just that the reward on his tools are too high if they nerf his damage as well as certain moves like 1,1 1+2 or hopknee he'd be solid a tier
He has some huge weaknesses to that the average player will never understand bc it is something they will never see. Yoshi can hardly deal with sidesteps. An opponent with good movement will shutdown Yoshis neutral completely. Out of his like 10 homing moves, only 3 of them are accessible in neutral, the rest locked behind stances. He is very very linear, but for literally the bottom 90% of the playerbase, they will never feel that bc the only xp they have with good movement is accidental.
@@Sicknificant1 ya sure poor Yoshi. My guy you should go teach most ignorant PRO players who say he is top 5 or even top 3 how to play the match up... these fanboys Yoshi mains smh
@@Sicknificant1f4 bro it can be ducked but it’s quick and shuts down SS yoshi is legit S tier and that’s okay let homie be strong af just don’t try to say he isn’t lol
Rage arts were balanced only because rage drives existed in T7. In T8 they’re just awful when combined with heat smashes. In T8 i should’t be punished by a rage drive absorbing my jab.
I really miss rage drives. I wish they were the only way to use your rage - I really loathe the hyper armour on rage arts. And rage drives was more skilful to use, especially now that all rage arts are mids. Remember how some were highs and some were even low? All the character is slowly getting sucked out from Tekken. Heat smash should just have been another way to use rage. Maybe using heat engager/burst would lock you out of rage and would be limited to heat smash for that round. The heat bar would naturally go down like normally. This would give greater agency to players: "Do I wanna use heat as a temporary boost with heat drive/smash option or rage as a semi permanent boost with rage arts option". It would also remove the hesitation created by a potential rage arts if they used heat prior.
Healing in fighting games is usually pretty strong but the difference from good to really good is how much heath they get back Yoshi can get back so much health I didn't think it would be that much
Good to know that my main is strong right now! I'll still main him if/when he gets nerfed, though. Yoshi's wackiness is what make the character fun for me; I'm perfectly okay with him being reeled in balance-wise (and it seems like he might need it at the higher levels of play).
@@bladesofblood6 The point is that this version of Yoshi probably won't fly once good players start actually using him. Not that I care all that much since I don't even watch tournaments.
@@bladesofblood6He still takes skill to a degree unlike characters as strong as him and also Dragunov is stronger than him still, that’s why you see dragunovs more than yoshi on tournament
He's fine. Except his damage, it could probably be lowered by like 10. Oh and also the Guard break setup, its kinda bullshit. Oh and also we never asked for the healing on NSS moves, they could remove that and just give us the old meditation stance healing and we'd be happy with that. Also they should probably do something about the sideswitch F1+2 heat engage setup its kinda bonkers. Also maybe just make it so f1+2 isn't our pancake flip option considering its like... straight up better? CD1 could be our pancake flip option again, we really wouldn't mind.
This doesn't even consider the fact that NSS Flash is so good, he can use it to combo from a CH Jab. Unlike Hwoarang who has to fully commit to the string to CH launch, great Yoshi players will watch out for the CH hitspark and confirm, and you just got 10f Launched
I would love a video like this on strong characters like Nina, Ling, Alisa and Shaheen too! Understanding what makes characters strong and how some of them break the rules helps to understand the issues that hold back Tekken 8 from being the best game it can be. Specially with characters like Shaheen that are not particulary broken but super strong aswell. Also, understanding this stuff makes me a better player. Love this vid.
@@dohnaseek She's insanely strong but also a specialist character to the extreme. You can't use tournament placements as the sole metric for character strength since simplicity is a major factor for tournie players when making picks, main or pocket - to counteract tournie nerves, potential jetlag and the stress from being in a loud crowded environment causing suboptimal play. Easier to manage if youre not juggling a complex character's movelist. Considering how complex she can be, only those who have great familiarity with her would be likely to run her in a tournament, and she's always been a rare character, especially at the top level.
@@dohnaseekit doesn’t matter if Xiaoyu is in high tournament placements or not to prove that the character is busted. Are you in tournaments? No. Are we? No so that doesn’t matter for 99% of the player base. I have picked up Xiaoyu and played her a bit and sometimes get easier wins than I do with another character that I know a lot more cuz she’s that strong
@@carringtonfrayser6947 Since when has KIN parry become broken? lmao People will call every yoshi move broken nowadays without even knowing how these moves function
@@carringtonfrayser6947 Yeah, it is a launch for the opponent if they know to sidewalk the non-guaranteed parry followup. (though judging from this comment section, and frankly TMM himself, most don't have the slightest clue about any of Yoshi's tools) It's still quite useful against big fat moves, like Drag's CD4, but calling it broken is the overstatement of the century.
on every survey bamco did. i give them a question " how are you going to balance between jailing charcter vs non jailing character" as for now tekken have force 50/50, so jailing character will have another good tools. so nerf the jailing mechanic, i bet there will be a huge position switch in character usage. i hope you read this TMM & Bandai namco.
You forgot about: - nss standing 2ch being full launch on a lot of the cast - indian stance having range 4 keepout with the buffed 3~4 - d,df+4 going under mids - uf3 crushing highs and lows - the fact that sword sweep at the wall csn be done on reaction, its not a read - Kin f1 new sword move does 32 damage from nss, is safe and OTGs -ws4 randomly hitting FDFA - same with sword sweep, it randomly hits grounded - some of the best whiff recovery in the game (try whiff punishing fly f1+2 eith a launch) - yoshi is, I think, the only character whos df2 cant be punished by Jacks howl parry 4 There is definitely an argunent for Yoshi being top 1. Hes just harder execution than Drag, but the ceiling is higher imo
So, long story short, you get the troll character and try to upgrade him with a bit more damage and more complexity offensively, adding some much needed tools without losing his legacy set and, of course, you realize that *he's an immortal demonic ninja*
@@Ephringael right? I’m a yoshimitsu (kishin) main. A lot of ppl keep so much pressure with extremely cheesy tactics. but a flash is where the line gets drawn 😒
@@vinniegret4841 Or maybe im actually decent at the game? lol yall are so salty about 1 move when other characters literally spam plus on block the entire game
@@vinniegret4841where tf is that coming from? I was ruler rank in tekken 7 with Yoshi and that was considered respectable, so yea where tf is that coming from u sheep? Uhhh Yoshi cheap cuz mainman said so, and I'm a sheep so I'll just say what everyone is saying to be in the herd.
@@Kingkaindal It’s not a lot of fighting games have similar mechanics like street fighter with supers and ex moves TEKKEN players just are clueless about how most fighting games are structured
@blueeyeswhitekarin3267 you have to earn those specials, rage art is literally a get out of jail free card and heat is as well, you start the game off with heat strike one, in street fighter you have to actually build meter and use your specials accordingly, at the end of your health in SF you don't get rage plus a rage art to bail you out strike 2, big difference and not even comparable. And most special level 3 arts can be jumped and has way more counter play also they aren't traditionally 1 button moves you have to actually do motion inputs. Strike 3, you get 5 rounds of this bs back to back in tekken, in SF6 you'd be lucky to save up 2 special 3 level arts let alone having access to 5 of them and 5 heat smashes depending on how far the rounds go in the tekken match.
@@Kingkaindal Agreed. While I absolutely love launch punishing panic rage arts I eat them at the wall sometimes when I technically should be free to continue my combo but they sneak in the rage art they have been spamming since they got the glowing red indicator. Then we both have to watch a 15 second cinematic for me just to get up and kill them anyway. I hardly use them unless I am mid combo and think I can get better damage using it to extend vs my normal ender. Its a goofy mechanic in my opinion.
I'm a Yoshi main, and in my opinion ( not that anyone cares ): - you are right on the Kin trap, that should go away, give him less frames on the guardbreak so its not allowed to to B2-2 - the spinning- then counter is not how you are framing it, is almost always to far away to counter attack, so its not like Side step that you are in reach of everything, and in most situations you wouldn't hit after a couple spins... yes, it is very evasive to the point that some homing moves cannot hit him and maybe that is too much sometimes ( im ok to fix that ) , but you are trading health already, 3 spins is 28 health, so its like you are already hitting yourself and going back to neutral. - I dont know how to fix the unbreakable low on the wall. on every other situation the very low reach and recover time is enough to balance it, but at the wall , I really don't know whats the solution there ( the same goes to a lot of OKI situations with A LOT of characters, so if there is going to be a fix for this i would hope there is fix on everyone )
@7:45 "You probably haven't thought about it during matches..." "...he's gone from 10% health left to 50% health again" The copium exaggeration is wild. You probably haven't thought about it during a match because Yoshi's recoverable health gimmicks are TINY increases in health. 10% to 50% never happens, the opponent would literally be dead multiple times over lmfao Just reminds me how TTM thought Ling was OP in the beginning of the game and used to praise Yoshi for being a viable character now... And now this is his main thing to moan about and almost nothing has actually changed from then to now.
They’re tiny but they stack up it could be the difference between dying form another combo to living in another if you a fully optimal combo with as many heals as possible you can get like what a good 10hp in real recovery on top of doing all that damage and gaining white health, that’s ignoring any other health you gain off any other attacks you might land in a match
@@pranavjain8774 You don't get the lifesteal more than once in a single combo, so if he's lifestealing more than that in a single round it would imply the Yoshi is landing more than one sequence of combos. I'm sorry, the whining hate trains in this game community are pathetic and none of the raw data backs up the Yoshi hate talking points that everyone is parroting from a couple of sources. We get it, you hate playing against Flash even though it's always existed just because Yoshi is actually a viable option to pick in this game. He's not even top 5 by any actual metrics, just "vibes" from people who notoriously whine and bitch FOR A LIVING.
Seeing someone lay it all out and show just how absurd it is to fight Yoshimitsu is really gratifying. Like, I feel better about the fact that I really struggle with this matchup. Seems like everyone does! Because that’s how he is designed! Great…
Other crazy thing about Yoshi is if you play Reina agains him you are not able to use sentai stance because everything you try to do lose agains flash even if you don't do nothing.
Whatever they do I really hope they don't nerf his defensive options. As a newcomer player who loves defense (played T3 as a kid, don't really think that counts much haha) I love that Yoshi is the only character that makes spammers shake in fear.
You can power crush flash, you can orbital around flash, you can hit yoshimitsu before he uses flash if you can hit him before he has 6 frames of movement. Rage art beats all of those counters except the frame window, its not the same.
You still have to stop your entire game plan just because the threat of them doing it is there.... yeah you can do that for flash but what if he doesn't flash?
@@justhit6673 Its no different to what if they orbital, I cant do a low, what if they do a high crush, I cant jab, what if they sidestep, I cant use this move. The problem isnt flash, the problem is his healing and damage. If he wins an interaction, you have to work harder. It's a move, you have options that beat it, use them.
Sidestep also can mess up flash quite a bit since it's much better if aligned. Most people just try to mash into him when they're plus, especially with slower moves because they're thinking "I'm plus, therefore they can't even jab my 15 frame move!" even though it makes them hug right into the flash range with the start up.
@@Mandolin_AU there was options to beat tracking heat smashes , drag wr2, lili flip mix, yet those got nerfed from the amount of complains from pros and casuals... there's way counter play so why didn't they use them instead of complaining ?
@@justhit6673 Qcf3 is not comparable here, its an oki tool for grounded opponents. Drag wr2 nerf wouldnt have been needed if his other tools werent so fucked in the +6 situation. As for tracking heatsmashes, they break through armour dude, flash doesn't. Flash is not the problem, it was stronger in t7 and noone complained then, hmm I wonder why, because its his damage and healing thats the problem. Personally I think the first way they should nerf him is make it he can only heal once per combo. Because currently he can easily do 3 or 4 heals per combo, sometimes more in certain situations.
"kin tech trap" or the guard break set up on wake up can be avoided if u back roll... It's a mix up where the fast version of the move hits your back roll but it can be tech rolled and the slower one that gives u guaranteed b2,2 on guard break can be back rolled...
@@AngeloArcana hop knee was even more busted in Tekken 5 and going into TT2. Yoshi hop Knee, Avoid the Puddle, and Df 4 have been that good forever. There’s just lots more favorable lows to actually punish. It’s probably something so old to him now that it’s not an issue. Doesn’t hurt that it feels like they increased all sword hit boxes too with unreal engine 5. I swear I was phasing through on every other game besides this one. They also needed the unblockable lows hit box. It use to hit so much farther. It can go through peoples leg now if I’m too far.
Been saying this since week one. Dude has a stance visually distinct stance that, depending on the move he does AFTER, changes its frame date when entering it. Never seen a Heisenberg level mixup until this
Damn he's so strong..... I hope they nerf Devil Jin next patch
Devil Jin is bottom tier, learn the match up.
@@JoshZaWarudoi think he was joking
he's being sarcastic , you dense Tekken nerd
@@JoshZaWarudowooooosh right over your head
Devil Jin players on their way to be the funniest in any tekken comment section😮💨
This is the payment Harada gave to the Soul Calibur community by confirming there won't be another SC sequel in our lifetime.
I still play Soul Calibur 6. They will make another one one day
Tekken 8 has been a big success
There’s no doubt in my mind that that there’ll be a new soul calibur
@@seanguinnme too bro. Sc6 is amazing & I still have hope for a new one. As well as for a new vf and doa
@versatilelord8893 are you hoping for the rapture too?
@@sebaschan-uwu can’t tell if you’re joking but I’m just gonna let you know that there is no such thing as a rapture
As a Steve player, seeing Yoshi's toolkit makes me question wtf i've been doing with my life.
you play steve tho that's respect
lmfaooo dude T8 is my first tekken I sank 500hrs in Steve as my first character I'm in awe of these toolkits
Tekken 7 yoshimitsu was weak lol
As someone who plays steve and yoshi it’s so bs man yoshi feels so much easier and free to play
As a Steve main I’ve had this exact thought being the top tiers sometimes I sit there and ask wtf am I doing, yoshi has all this and I have…. bragging rights that I’m a hard low tier?
Fighting Schizophrenic has done irreparable damage to MMSWE's psyche
u know theres like 900 daily yoshis on leader, right?
Y'know it was a joke, right?
You know when back there happened then, right?
@@SeriphanKnightyou know that one thing that does that thing, right?
@@hands-ongaming7180 you know he does the thing back there what happened though right?
You said "Yoshi is difficult" in a video you posted 5-6 months ago. 😂
Now We not happy with legacy and generic tools? (Flash, df2, Spin & his one and only 10f string)
What happened? 😆
Having a 72% win rate against Yoshi at TGS.
I just wanna say:
If you're getting hit by flash constantly, it means you can't stop mashing your flowcharts, forced mixups, and/or plus-on-block moves.
To beat flash, all you have to do is actually learn the game and stop auto-piloting (in braindead mode).
1. Lab which of your strings can be flashed.
2. Delay or cancel your strings and flowcharts sometimes.
3. When you bait flash and he whiffs, you get a launch. Flash is -40/-44 on whiff and -15 on block.
4. Flash is nerfed compared to older games.
RA has range and can beat Heat Burst/Power Crushes/Heat Smashes.
After all, flash is a defensive tool with 0 range.
Spin (which is nerfed now):
His normal (SS) is trash-only better than Jack-8's and equal to the Bears'.
Tons of moves that characters like Lili/Alisa can sidestep for free.
Yoshi has to lose 8-18 HP to avoid.
And because of the recovery, you can't punish everything like you would with a normal SS.
Also, normal SS lets you sidestep and block.
You can't do this with spin as it has longer recovery.
And If Yoshi gets hit by a homing move while spinning, he loses HP on top of the 18 HP he already lost.
1,1:
This character doesn't even have any other i10 strings!
He doesn’t even have generic 1,2 jabs.
1,2 is -3 on HIT! 😂
1,2,1 is -16 with the third hit being high.
He has no strings with lows in them, while other characters have mixup strings and i10 strings with up to 3 hits or more.
Guard Break:
1 route can be avoided by holding back.
1 route can be avoided by recovery kick.
1 route you must stay down.
If you stay down, Yoshi loses oki, and the total damage is lower than if he wall-carries you, which is why it’s rarely used in tourneys.
This is the strongest iteration of Yoshi, but he still has many weaknesses compared to the actual top 5.
Name one weakness for Jin-good luck.
For a defensive character, Yoshi has a weak power crush. Other characters have:
- Power Crush Heat engagers.
- Safe Power Crush Heat engagers.
Hwoarang has like 4 power crushes:
One is hit-confirmable (& can go into stance).
One is airborne, so you can't grab him.
One is a safe high with fast recovery.
Yoshi can't keep pressure applied.
With very weak pokes, weak lows, and bad frames.
Out of his 193 moves, only 3-4 are +oB, and they are slow-some are even minus on hit.
No dick jab in 1SS.
Weak WS punishment.
Other characters can go into stances or forced mixups from fast, safe mids on block. or even lows.
If anyone thinks Yoshi is top 1/top 2, go pick him up and let him carry you.
Even Arslan Ash couldn’t get good results with him.
He’s 100% not easy to pilot.
Nobody said he's easy to pilot , infact it was not mentioned in the video once , you honestly sound like you play against those blue ranks yoshimitsu i encounter , those that spam unlockables and b4 and 3 24/7 and flash , everybody has a high WR against those players because they suck at the game , either way you called the "main man" a guy who plays mishimas before u were born probably or at the time u were a baby a braindead man ?!! , not only you are disrespectful af you're trashing on a guy that plays areguably the hardest charchters in the game with dogshit strings and bad flowchart , characters that rely heavily on execution and fundamentals, comment truly represent the average yoshi mindest , if u play dragounouv and alisa and ling or any other top 5 , it's not the same as picking kazuya or lee or steve against yoshi , either way was gonna aregue about yoshi moves u discussed her and his oki "can be simply avoided" but you lost me when u said stop spamming your flowcharts against him , when in reality yoshi players all have a collective 56 def on average, it's actually funny , also says stop using flowcharts and auto piloting and then says , "flowchart sometimes" u sound like undercover yoshi crybabies that show on every video yoshi gets critisized on 😂
One thing is that He still has to be nerfed too much damage for the amount of tools we have, man. People want the wrong shit to be nerfed. (Although I have to agree that our oki is bullshit.)
Another thing is I feel like people see him easy because of his combos, not the other shit we have to do.
Just saying as a Yoshi main.
Edit: Forgot about this. Nerf flash due him being able to punish safe moves.
@@seaweeds2895 Yeah i agree.
But -8 moves are -8 moves.
Wouldn't call them safe if there is a character that has moves faster than 10f
We're just used to calling them safe because generally characters don't have moves that are faster than 10f.
Like Xiaoyu b+1 and Yoshi.
Still only works for specific moves where the opponent ends up too close to you.
And i do agree it's super good.
So if i do a hatchet kick,then I want to use the frames I earned (ie BrAiNdEaD flowcharts)I should get punished for that?so I should just back up and let you do something after I risked getting punished?and you STILL have the ability to punish me If I want a follow up?seems fair to me😂you say try to pilot yoshi if he is so easy,go try and jet upper a wiffed flash, then get back to me 😂
Saying that Yoshi isn’t top 5 is severe downplay…he showed in the video that NSS his flash is a launcher. But it still functions as flash. Every thing you’ve explained might be true but him saying that you having these unique tools and doing loads of damage is still true.
Your character plays his own game and the game he plays breaks the game which was held back by weak damage. That isn’t the case anymore. An I doubt most people who main him will continue after the nerfs IE DVJ mains
It's worse than threat of a Rage Art, because Rage Art doesn't hit you if you were moving the moment it activates
but it also doesn't beat all buttons like a rage art does. It varies from character to character, everyone should lab it and find their characters anti flash buttons. This way this matchup feels way less frustrating. It's mostly moves where the character stretches out his hitbox and keeps his hurtbox back. Good jabs, magic 4's, orbitals, powercrushes, even some throws, then you got very risky stuff like backswing blows for hard reads.
With dvj it's worse. If you enter mourning crow from uf1 on block, or heat smash you MUST go for punishable on block MC2 or MC2,2, because doing nothing makes you eat flash for some reason. And MC1 loses as well.
At least now heat smash MC can be cancelled.
I got clipped by a flash during a sidestep.. I feel you
u cant cancel rage art with a low
Play Steve, enter lionheart, get flashed for doing any attack and for trying to cancel it.
So what you're trying to say is...we need to nerf Devil Jin?
Yes DVJ is so broken he makes others OD by proxy
At the very least remove his heat bar.
@@progsteor take away all his moves and give them to Jin.
frfr and make sure to buy the tekken battle pass
@@ChrisM-wv4gsmight as well just get rid of DVJ all together Jin already beated himself and just replace dvj with angel Jin now
To everyone trying to argue why Yoshi isn't winning tournaments if he's so busted, have you considered tournament play isn't the only part of the game?
I disagree with TMM quite a bit, but he's correct when he separates the game into four divisions: beginner, intermediate, high level, pro level. Pro level is so unbelievably miniscule in comparison to the rest of the playerbase, so stop hiding behind those players that you don't compare to to defend something.
Akuma in T7 was busted af in tournaments, but you probably never had one blow you up like we would see on stage.
Meanwhile, Marduk wasn't nearly as prevalent in tournaments, but he could delete 80% of your health off one launch; so was he busted?
The answer is yes.
100% agree with this statement
Facts. Tired of people trying to claim tournament this and tournament that when none of them or us are competing in tournaments. It’s irrelevant to what we’re talking about
Tournament play is the biggest part of the game. And the problem is, you guys aren't just saying Yoshi is strong, you are saying it's cheap, busted, almost like 'you can't lose if you play this cheap character'. So of course, people are going to constantly bring up the tournament charts.
My own take about this issue:
tournament play is not the only part of the game, yes, but it is the most noticeable, the most prestigious, the most engaging, and the most part that got people's attention.
yoshi is busted, yes.
yoshi is among top 5 characters in T8, yes.
but if he's not winning tournaments, he's not worthy to be nerfed.
@@TCGArsenal Such a dumb take. Just because they havent won a tournament doesnt mean that they dont need nerfs. Take DVJ for example, everyone called him stupid and requesting nerfs at the start of the game but he wasn't winning tournaments. Claudio is winning tournaments and yet we dont see any nerfs for him since people actually find him balanced. Lidia just won a recent tournament but she's considered mediocre/mid. You clearly dont know what you're talking about.
When your Guard Impact from Soul Calibur accidentally gets ported to tekken... again
The Yoshi situation in Tekken 8 is crazy.
Moist Critikal
MoistManC
pyrocynical is writing this down
its that popular guy, right?
The Moistman’s comment curse continues 😂
you don’t know what you just did mainman, the yoshi army are coming
They are already here
@@emilianovalle95 YOSHI MAINS ASSEMBLE
Fuck Yoshi Mains - with love Bryan mains@@ReGHeo
Tmm is a salty crybaby, imagine if he played a good yoshi player off cam 😂
@@Darkknightrexx He is explaining how broken this character is I dont see him crying ,yoshi is so braindead you dont have to think when you play him ,you are mad cuz he called yoshi playstyle is so cheap
i didnt even know yoshi healed non-grey health...
He been doing that.
@@Ghostkilla773 sow it is.
To be fair, he always had healing.
you must be new to Tekken
@@abura2980 not at all, just don’t care at all about the yoshi matchup
I seem to remember in TMM's character difficulty tier list video a few months ago, he was describing Yoshi's pressure as "fake" and getting caught in Yoshi's flash or oki set ups is basically your fault for getting hit by them and put Yoshi in Hard tier.
I wonder if he has changed his mind in the last few months or if he still thinks Yoshi is a "hard" character but is strong nevertheless.
Safe to say a full 30 minute breakdown of this character's advantages indicates that he has changed his mind
Getting owned by schizophrenic does that to u
Schrödinger's Yoshi: Apparently he's way too busted to the point where he is a autopilot ez win character, but when you point out that his tournament representation is mid-tier they go "well duh, he's not easy to play so obviously pro players don't wanna play him".
Yoshi is literally just "I don't respect you, your character, or your time."
I fully hear that, as a bryan player i kinda like fighting a yoshi because its always a "whats going on" type of fight but i hear you man
Based
In a stereotype asian accent: Hu's the jook karakter naowh?
@@laughingman7467 *raughs*
and it's always been like this, it's not new to tekken 8 lol
Please forgive my yoshi brethren downplaying. They simply do not want him to become garbage once again after years of suffering.
I haven't had the opportunity to play Tekken 8 much since its release, but I agree as a Yoshi Main, this is a swing too far in the power scaling. I would like Yoshi to remain a top competitor, but with abilities and moves that are more honest.
(Edit: 'top competitor' was a bit too much for what I meant to say. I guess all I meant was I want Yoshimitsu to be a viable pick for the players who enjoy his playstyle. I don't want him to feel like he can't do anything substantial against half the roster without significant luck is all.)
@@Crooked_Mantis I'd rather him be dishonest and have low dmg/wall carry then made into a high dmg but "honest" character. Right now he's completely busted
To be fair, characters like Yoshi, Jack and the bears are healthier for the game when they're bottom tier, they're gimmick characters and don't really play the same game as everyone else, and I'm saying this as someone who really likes playing Jack from time to time.
@@pedropenha2099yoshi main since tekken 5. I dont mind it at all too. Also the reason i like playing yoshi. It’s gimmicky
we'll still play him too, that's the sick part. Through sickness and through health. Since tekken 3, going strong.
Flash is not the end all pressure tool TMM thinks it is. You, as the opponent, literally have to move into range for it to even reach in 1SS and if you do a move that DOES NOT extend your hurtbox into flash range then you can beat it clean by just doing your normal offense. I know TMM plays Mishima's 90% of the time so he probably gets ass-blasted because Mishima's gameplan is to force 50/50s by wavedashing in your face, thus extending your hurtbox into flash. Characters like Claudio are Yoshi's toughest match-ups because of his insane hit/hurtboxes.
A good Yoshi will recognize when it's a good time to flash when they're on defense because you're so damn close to him. And if you're getting flashed after Yoshi does a string (ie 2,2 into flash), it's just a gimmick and easily baitable and punishable just like any other flowchart any other character can do.
Yoshi pros make him look overpowered that’s why mainman has PTSD now
Next patch:
We have found that while yoshi is regarded as strong, he is functioning as intended. In light of this, we have decided to adjust devil jin again by reducing the damage of his launchers 😂
I came to watch the broken parts of Yoshi, I left with new techniques to use as Yoshi
Thank you for helping to make my yoshimitsu even more annoying. You a real one.
This is a fucking tutorial on how to play yoshimitsu xD
shizo really did a number on this man
Which is why he is called schizophrenic69
schizophrenic69 and his consequences have been disastrous to mainman's mind
💯 this shit has me dying lol
bro got played so hard he made a video complaining about the character lmao
@@mirhamf2575zip it up when ur done
@@mirhamf2575 he's been doing this forever lol. Remember when some Nina destroyed his mental in T7 so he spent 3 days playing Nina shouting like a child "nina is so hard nina is so hard" and then made like 2 videos on why she is OP lol. TMM is a massive child regardless of whether he's sometimes correct.
Yoshi is over powered anyone who says otherwise is delusional and can't play for shit
The thing with Yoshi is a lot of bad players used to play him. It gave their ego an excuse fir being bad "oh well I lose because im on Yoshi hes so hard and tricky, etc, etc". But now they are dominating. They arent really sure why, they dont kniw enough to explain it. But in their mind, its not the character. Or they think they deserve jt. Its kinda funny honestly.
This is the most broken character weve had since T5 Steve. Maybe worse honestly. If he isnt fixed youre gonna see him a lot more as pro pkayers start abusing with him.
As a Yoshi player, I remember hearing people complaining about how they 'nerfed' Flash and being bewildered at the outrage. Of course they had to make it not launch on normal hit; imagine the Yoshimitsu we would've had right now if they *didn't* nerf it, if this is the Yoshi we have now.
Actually we found out that the nerf to 1ss flash allowed us to use it as combo filler after basically every launcher, which added roughly 10 damage to every combo. If Flash always launched, Yoshis combo damage on average would go down. It was never a nerf, it was a buff in disguise.
I’m a king main and understand the complaints about king but some of this is just complaining. The window for flash is so quick that most yoshis I play don’t use it after a few misses. There’s a reason yoshi doesn’t make top of tournaments as much as other characters. There’s only 3 goated yoshis that make him look broken(eyemusician, sin, Kane&trench)
This is what I'm saying.
He's strong if you play all day and main him but you can't pick him up over a weekend and be like " ya I'm so op now"
Thanks, good take. Never thought i would see a well reflected king player before your comment
The reason doesnt make up top in tournaments coz yoshi players not good enough even with top 3 character. Let ma paint you a picture of tournament players. There is two types of players 1) Character loyalists, they play their character(s) despite current meta. All eddy or jack players for example are the ones who played em in tekken 7, its not meta characters to win tournaments. These type of players will not pick meta yoshi coz they play the character they like. 2) Meta players. Meta players like Arslan or Atif play top tier characters and switch em when meta changes for new meta characters. These kind of players usually pick most simple characters from top tier so they can learn em faster and switch to new one fast too. Yoshi is too complicated character to pick for meta player, so they pick easier to master (dragunov or nina for example). So these group of people will not pick yoshi too. By that simple logic the only players in tournaments that use yoshi is from first group aka character loyalists. Thats why there is not a lot of yhoshi players in tournaments despite it being top 5 in current meta.
This is why arslan has a yoshi main on his team and is working with him to have a secondary yoshi
yeah that's not happening, he doesn't get any results with yoshi and he's been trying for months now
arslan tried to take him in locals and failed
Because they found out Yoshi ain't as easy as they thought lol
lol arslan likes the piss easy characters, he aint gonna have a good time with yoshi not like this
I think discussion of his first class fundamental tools is equally important to understanding his t8 strength and why his t7 state was more justifiable. He still had many of these tools in t7 but wasnt such a complete package. T8 devs missed the mark.
I honestly didnt understand what made yoshi so strong so i really appreciate the video
I get why they'd want rage arts as a comeback mechanic so matches aren't over until they're over, but at this point now we have combos that do half life, recoverable health, heat to extend combos, and rage giving a damage increase, rage arts did not need to be in tekken 8, comebacks are always possible without them
Tekken was always a game where two or three mistakes would cost you a round. We have plenty of clutch comebacks even before rage. It was better because the player had to truly earn it.
I'd be fine if rage arts just acted like any other armored move and could be punished by your own rage art. That way if you have the read you can grab them, low interrupt or get at least a guaranteed punish on it if you're at awkward stage position.
They were never needed rage arts are a stupid mechanic rage damage is enough of a comeback mechanic on its own since they added heat they should've just removed it entirely.
Been 20+ years of having him be bad to mid. Let me have this
Finally, lore accurate yoshimitsu
I hope yoshi wins a tournament
Has he ever actually won a major tournament?
@@TheGreatAustino idk
He already did. Sin won with Yoshi against KKokkoma's Dragunov at CrossOver.
There's a feature in practice mode to, without going to the pause menu and changing it manually, immediately reset the initial position of both characters to be towards the wall or against the wall, in case you didn't know. I don't the command in pc, but in ps5 it's press touch pad + X button + left/right arrow.
Maybe many of you don't think of it, but he have something what I call Yoshi's armor, if he gamble with high extension string, he ends in flying stance, you will get only float combo.
That's true. He can reduce incoming damage by being in DGF.
He has almost no moves that are + on block.
Every move is plus since you have flash
This is the same dude that caused the nerf to devil jin to oblivion so wouldnt be surprised if yoshi gets nerfed
Yoshi main here, no downplaying, Yoshi is straight BS, but feels so good after playing T7 yoshi. Flash go BRRRR
He was underrated in T7 as well. He had range , evaded a ton, and had all his unblockables. He might have been used in pro level but was certainly used in high level ranked.
bruh at least... an honest Yoshi main, my respect sir LMAO
I think giving him healing with NSS was a pretty WTF buff, even as a Yoshi main.
I love soul stealer and how it's lore accurate, but I really didn't ask for it and could really do without it tbh.
His flash when the game came out was hilariously OP lmao
what tekken 8 rank are you?
We are lucky most of Yoshi players have one digit IQ, so it's not completely lost
MainMan is still so mad over losing to Schizoprenic69 lollllllll
Remember when Bryan was the scariest at the wall lmao now i'm more scared when a yoshi,jin,nina... has me against the wall
Yeah, I've done RAs with yoshi with half my health bar gained back already, lol
This helped me learn a bit more about Yoshi's options and what to potentially keep in mind during a match. Thanks Mainman!
My personal opinion of Yoshi is that I don't like how he actually has good damage now, lol.
Yeah, damage is higher than intended. Interestingly its a result of the flash nerf from Tekken 7 to Tekken 8. Players found very early on that you can dash flash after the vast majority of his launchers without really impacting your combo route, and get like an extra 10 damage due to its new behavior in 1ss.
The guard break trap can actually be countered pretty easialy, you just getup holding back, and it will miss for you to punish or you just stay grounded and take the hit.
Make the health gain for recoverable only... remove the tech trap and some oki options while lowering the damage a bit..., SOLVED the rest can stay (specially def options) to have it be strong and not kill the character and retain an identity
Counter point Yoshi deserves one time at the top and with an outfit like this he extra deserves it
The risk versus reward of flash and spin is insane, but I'm sure Yoshi mains will say otherwise.
Risk of flash is eating a 70-120 damage combo (not taking into account extreme situations). Reward of flash is dealing a 50-90 damage combo. (again, excluding extreme situations).
So, the risk/reward is quite insane indeed. What's more insane is that folks are still complaining about it.
@@Dr.Happy11That's a complete lie. Yoshi is the one doing 100 damage combos from a 6 frame unblockable. You very rarely launch flash and if you do it's with a low damage launcher such as hopkick. Flash is so quick you can't react to when it's actually vulnerable. 90 percent of the time it isn't launched , half the time it's not punished at all
So that's why he's moonsault slayer main because of his cheapness
@@shaghilathar3588 Have you not updated your game since like March or something?
And the "rarely punished" argument is laughable past the Cavalry rank.
It's like saying "I punish hellsweeps with ws4, please nerf harader-chan" and expect people to take you seriously.
@@Dr.Happy11 care to share your tekken ID? So if I can see anyone matched against you is pulling off this counter play that deal 70-120 dmg? Because I would really like to know
in 7:30 youre wrong, when yodhi has recoverable health he only recovers that, if what you said were true, the recoverable health treshold would have increased in your video example.
I think rage art should be usable every round, but you can only land it once per match.
Wasn't that how MK handled their supers in the last game with Fatal Blow?
@@nybxcrotona
yep
being able to sit on it every round is the problem, though
3:20 This is not guaranteed. You can stay on the ground and tank the guard break damage without the yoshi being able to extend the combo, or if you roll backwards the guard break will sometimes whiff depending on the timing of the yoshi.
It's guaranteed in the sense that if you don't get the lucky back roll you'll have to eat damage either way.
Proud Yoshimitsu player since Tekken 2. TIME FOR REVENGE MOTHERFUCKERS
oh yeah yeah
Real
Let the man have flash
😂
thats the way, not turning a blind eye to the fact that your character is broken but a fk you to other players
Sword sweep is actually visually confirmable against a tech roll. There is no guess work, only reactions to when you should use sweep vs any other option. THAT'S the scary part about it.
Exactly, most of the noob Yoshifanboys downplaying him here doesn't even know that. The same applies to the counter play when people decide to stay grounded with his f1+2 which they can heatdash on reaction if they techroll to make it safe at +5... simply dumb.
They need to change it to 1 rage art per match not per round
That’s dumb
Honestly I think there's definitely some tuning that needs to happen for Yoshi, but I really hope he stays just as strong. Out of all the characters to be busted he's gotta be the most interesting & entertaining.
Don't forget the BS hopkick that crushes highs, lows and some mids!
Ok now that’s going too far I didn’t even know about that!
It has happened to me so many times….
this
bruh but remember he has "weaknesses" ROFL
@@vlastermaster hehehe
Thanks for the video! Really glad to be able to learn all this stuff as a new player…
Trying to play in blue ranks and get Tekken King and most of my matches are against Yoshi. As Steve the matchup is beyond frustrating
playing as steve vs mitsu is a nightmare.....
you can't even punish his flash properly and he can flash all your duck cancels.
Tell me about it. You can't even Lionheart against him, pain and suffering.
lol I have a tough time against Steve on Yoshi - any Steve who is patient usually makes it really hard for me.
Lars is also a nightmare we cant do anything in our stances except den 3 whats the point when ur a stance character and all our best moves are locked in stances 😂
i accept that yoshi is strong as i was a yoshi main
but he has his flaws too.
i always feel like he is more susceptible to damage when compared to any other character in the game due to his stances.
mostly he is always launched in his stances so the healing mechanism that yoshi has feel like its not a big deal
when it comes to the damage i always think its always about how good you are with the character
i am always ready to hear your opinions tho...
KaneAndTrench: umm askhually he has some weaknesses... ☝🤓
he does have weaknesses to be fair, it's just that the reward on his tools are too high
if they nerf his damage as well as certain moves like 1,1 1+2 or hopknee he'd be solid a tier
He has some huge weaknesses to that the average player will never understand bc it is something they will never see.
Yoshi can hardly deal with sidesteps. An opponent with good movement will shutdown Yoshis neutral completely. Out of his like 10 homing moves, only 3 of them are accessible in neutral, the rest locked behind stances.
He is very very linear, but for literally the bottom 90% of the playerbase, they will never feel that bc the only xp they have with good movement is accidental.
Hmm do I listen to a professional tekken player that has played Yoshimitsu for literal years or random people that cry like you.
@@Sicknificant1 ya sure poor Yoshi. My guy you should go teach most ignorant PRO players who say he is top 5 or even top 3 how to play the match up... these fanboys Yoshi mains smh
@@Sicknificant1f4 bro it can be ducked but it’s quick and shuts down SS yoshi is legit S tier and that’s okay let homie be strong af just don’t try to say he isn’t lol
Thanks for the video, I am a Tekken newcomer and this will help me improve my Yoshi Game.
Rage arts were balanced only because rage drives existed in T7. In T8 they’re just awful when combined with heat smashes. In T8 i should’t be punished by a rage drive absorbing my jab.
I really miss rage drives. I wish they were the only way to use your rage - I really loathe the hyper armour on rage arts. And rage drives was more skilful to use, especially now that all rage arts are mids. Remember how some were highs and some were even low? All the character is slowly getting sucked out from Tekken. Heat smash should just have been another way to use rage. Maybe using heat engager/burst would lock you out of rage and would be limited to heat smash for that round. The heat bar would naturally go down like normally. This would give greater agency to players: "Do I wanna use heat as a temporary boost with heat drive/smash option or rage as a semi permanent boost with rage arts option". It would also remove the hesitation created by a potential rage arts if they used heat prior.
Healing in fighting games is usually pretty strong but the difference from good to really good is how much heath they get back
Yoshi can get back so much health I didn't think it would be that much
Good to know that my main is strong right now! I'll still main him if/when he gets nerfed, though. Yoshi's wackiness is what make the character fun for me; I'm perfectly okay with him being reeled in balance-wise (and it seems like he might need it at the higher levels of play).
Yea all that evidence of yoshi dominating tournaments oh wait
@@bladesofblood6 The point is that this version of Yoshi probably won't fly once good players start actually using him. Not that I care all that much since I don't even watch tournaments.
@@DiscoCokkroach There's been plenty of time to pick up yoshi especially with all the "yoshi op" hype discourse. Still no one does it
@@bladesofblood6 Okay.
@@bladesofblood6He still takes skill to a degree unlike characters as strong as him and also Dragunov is stronger than him still, that’s why you see dragunovs more than yoshi on tournament
Damn this video was entertaining asf, please make more on other characters either about them being broken or not good at all
There’s not many characters that are bad tbh
Here come the yoshi mains saying he’s fine
He's fine. Except his damage, it could probably be lowered by like 10. Oh and also the Guard break setup, its kinda bullshit. Oh and also we never asked for the healing on NSS moves, they could remove that and just give us the old meditation stance healing and we'd be happy with that. Also they should probably do something about the sideswitch F1+2 heat engage setup its kinda bonkers. Also maybe just make it so f1+2 isn't our pancake flip option considering its like... straight up better? CD1 could be our pancake flip option again, we really wouldn't mind.
@@Ephringael I’m not reading this long ass comment. Your character is for clowns & you know it.
@@masterpiece4975 its literally a list of things I'd be happy if they changed you dingus.
@@Ephringaelu r a clown do u know that?
@@ICEMAN-Z8 Another shining example of the communities finest minds!
Thanks for putting it on youtube, buddy
They'll watch this and nerf Steve zafina asuka or buff drag or heihachi.
Ah, yes. Another succulent nerf to Devil Jin.
Buff to morning crow or some other bs gimmicks @@Someone_Somewhere7
@@Someone_Somewhere7he was buffed
buff steve. asuka and zafani are fine they are cheesy and cheap. nerf drag, heihachi aint even strong right now
This doesn't even consider the fact that NSS Flash is so good, he can use it to combo from a CH Jab. Unlike Hwoarang who has to fully commit to the string to CH launch, great Yoshi players will watch out for the CH hitspark and confirm, and you just got 10f Launched
Hwo can also hit confirm from both db4 and his RFF jab, but nice try cheeky lil one.
Db4 CH-confirm might be one of the easiest in the whole game.
I would love a video like this on strong characters like Nina, Ling, Alisa and Shaheen too! Understanding what makes characters strong and how some of them break the rules helps to understand the issues that hold back Tekken 8 from being the best game it can be. Specially with characters like Shaheen that are not particulary broken but super strong aswell. Also, understanding this stuff makes me a better player.
Love this vid.
i mean clearly ling isnt that strong when she didnt have any successful tournament run compared to nina, alisa, shaheen
@@dohnaseekshe’s a lot harder than those characters
@@dohnaseek She's insanely strong but also a specialist character to the extreme. You can't use tournament placements as the sole metric for character strength since simplicity is a major factor for tournie players when making picks, main or pocket - to counteract tournie nerves, potential jetlag and the stress from being in a loud crowded environment causing suboptimal play. Easier to manage if youre not juggling a complex character's movelist.
Considering how complex she can be, only those who have great familiarity with her would be likely to run her in a tournament, and she's always been a rare character, especially at the top level.
@@dohnaseekplenty of Nina’s and shaheen and Lings in top 8
@@dohnaseekit doesn’t matter if Xiaoyu is in high tournament placements or not to prove that the character is busted. Are you in tournaments? No. Are we? No so that doesn’t matter for 99% of the player base. I have picked up Xiaoyu and played her a bit and sometimes get easier wins than I do with another character that I know a lot more cuz she’s that strong
@20:46 yes. Because its not a parry, its an attack. Yoshi does have a broken parry, its not flash, 1+2 just frame on hit is his parry.
@@carringtonfrayser6947 Since when has KIN parry become broken? lmao
People will call every yoshi move broken nowadays without even knowing how these moves function
Damn so he can parry with just one button (just macro the 1+2 input on one button)
@@sebastianmoscoso9404 Yeah. That what I do. Pisses Steve and Kaz mains off to no end.
@@Dr.Happy11 Its a launcher. I get a full combo for free when I land it. I actually main Yoshi.
@@carringtonfrayser6947 Yeah, it is a launch for the opponent if they know to sidewalk the non-guaranteed parry followup. (though judging from this comment section, and frankly TMM himself, most don't have the slightest clue about any of Yoshi's tools)
It's still quite useful against big fat moves, like Drag's CD4, but calling it broken is the overstatement of the century.
When a character is weak ppl complain. When a character is strong ppl complain. Goid grief.
on every survey bamco did.
i give them a question " how are you going to balance between jailing charcter vs non jailing character"
as for now tekken have force 50/50, so jailing character will have another good tools.
so nerf the jailing mechanic, i bet there will be a huge position switch in character usage.
i hope you read this TMM & Bandai namco.
until yoshi tops or dominate major event like EVO, I say let him have what he has now~!
With new patch you can manipulate health bars in training. It’s in practice settings right under the heat settings
You forgot about:
- nss standing 2ch being full launch on a lot of the cast
- indian stance having range 4 keepout with the buffed 3~4
- d,df+4 going under mids
- uf3 crushing highs and lows
- the fact that sword sweep at the wall csn be done on reaction, its not a read
- Kin f1 new sword move does 32 damage from nss, is safe and OTGs
-ws4 randomly hitting FDFA
- same with sword sweep, it randomly hits grounded
- some of the best whiff recovery in the game (try whiff punishing fly f1+2 eith a launch) - yoshi is, I think, the only character whos df2 cant be punished by Jacks howl parry 4
There is definitely an argunent for Yoshi being top 1. Hes just harder execution than Drag, but the ceiling is higher imo
Currently, Yoshi is good. I think that can improve him by giving his sword sweep more range, and allowing his poison breath to hit mid also.
So, long story short, you get the troll character and try to upgrade him with a bit more damage and more complexity offensively, adding some much needed tools without losing his legacy set and, of course, you realize that *he's an immortal demonic ninja*
😎
Not to mention his hopkick also beats jabs.
We need a new tierlist!!! Would love to see who dropped and raised after these new buffs/nerfs
It is still young lol. New patch note come out few week ago. Lot of people still unsure about heihachi being strong or weak.
@@danishiqbal2963 well based on tmm comments on his stream hours ago he commented kazuya is better and reina is "super heihachi"
@@dohnaseek He's idiotic and biased. Reina sucks so bad
Holy hell I thought I was just bad whenever I got hit by at low at the wall, I didn't realize it was guaranteed on techroll
You’re reach so hard with that flash claim. It’s not hard to bait ppl to do it and block or make them whiff.
Literally get baited all the time. Sometimes I don't even get baited the voice in my head just shouts 1+4 and I press it out of range and die.
@@Ephringael right? I’m a yoshimitsu (kishin) main. A lot of ppl keep so much pressure with extremely cheesy tactics. but a flash is where the line gets drawn 😒
@@10FN0N3 Sometimes i think your ranks are a confirmation for a nerf. You shouldnt be where you are with that braindamage of yours.
@@vinniegret4841 Or maybe im actually decent at the game? lol yall are so salty about 1 move when other characters literally spam plus on block the entire game
@@vinniegret4841where tf is that coming from? I was ruler rank in tekken 7 with Yoshi and that was considered respectable, so yea where tf is that coming from u sheep? Uhhh Yoshi cheap cuz mainman said so, and I'm a sheep so I'll just say what everyone is saying to be in the herd.
Yoshi was definately the hardest matchup for me on my way to blue ranks with Heihachi.
Rage art is even worse now because when paired with Heat Smash, everyone basically has two super moves that take no effort to achieve.
R3t4rded Tekken.
Because here at Banco we know you are r3t4rd 😘
that's the real problem with the game. it's way too much
@@Kingkaindal
It’s not a lot of fighting games have similar mechanics like street fighter with supers and ex moves TEKKEN players just are clueless about how most fighting games are structured
@blueeyeswhitekarin3267 you have to earn those specials, rage art is literally a get out of jail free card and heat is as well, you start the game off with heat strike one, in street fighter you have to actually build meter and use your specials accordingly, at the end of your health in SF you don't get rage plus a rage art to bail you out strike 2, big difference and not even comparable.
And most special level 3 arts can be jumped and has way more counter play also they aren't traditionally 1 button moves you have to actually do motion inputs.
Strike 3, you get 5 rounds of this bs back to back in tekken, in SF6 you'd be lucky to save up 2 special 3 level arts let alone having access to 5 of them and 5 heat smashes depending on how far the rounds go in the tekken match.
@@Kingkaindal Agreed. While I absolutely love launch punishing panic rage arts I eat them at the wall sometimes when I technically should be free to continue my combo but they sneak in the rage art they have been spamming since they got the glowing red indicator. Then we both have to watch a 15 second cinematic for me just to get up and kill them anyway. I hardly use them unless I am mid combo and think I can get better damage using it to extend vs my normal ender. Its a goofy mechanic in my opinion.
I'm a Yoshi main, and in my opinion ( not that anyone cares ):
- you are right on the Kin trap, that should go away, give him less frames on the guardbreak so its not allowed to to B2-2
- the spinning- then counter is not how you are framing it, is almost always to far away to counter attack, so its not like Side step that you are in reach of everything, and in most situations you wouldn't hit after a couple spins... yes, it is very evasive to the point that some homing moves cannot hit him and maybe that is too much sometimes ( im ok to fix that ) , but you are trading health already, 3 spins is 28 health, so its like you are already hitting yourself and going back to neutral.
- I dont know how to fix the unbreakable low on the wall. on every other situation the very low reach and recover time is enough to balance it, but at the wall , I really don't know whats the solution there ( the same goes to a lot of OKI situations with A LOT of characters, so if there is going to be a fix for this i would hope there is fix on everyone )
@7:45 "You probably haven't thought about it during matches..." "...he's gone from 10% health left to 50% health again"
The copium exaggeration is wild. You probably haven't thought about it during a match because Yoshi's recoverable health gimmicks are TINY increases in health. 10% to 50% never happens, the opponent would literally be dead multiple times over lmfao
Just reminds me how TTM thought Ling was OP in the beginning of the game and used to praise Yoshi for being a viable character now... And now this is his main thing to moan about and almost nothing has actually changed from then to now.
You can literally see him recover about 30 percent health in that interaction, why are Yoshi players coping so hard about their broken character?
They’re tiny but they stack up it could be the difference between dying form another combo to living in another if you a fully optimal combo with as many heals as possible you can get like what a good 10hp in real recovery on top of doing all that damage and gaining white health, that’s ignoring any other health you gain off any other attacks you might land in a match
@@pranavjain8774 You don't get the lifesteal more than once in a single combo, so if he's lifestealing more than that in a single round it would imply the Yoshi is landing more than one sequence of combos.
I'm sorry, the whining hate trains in this game community are pathetic and none of the raw data backs up the Yoshi hate talking points that everyone is parroting from a couple of sources. We get it, you hate playing against Flash even though it's always existed just because Yoshi is actually a viable option to pick in this game. He's not even top 5 by any actual metrics, just "vibes" from people who notoriously whine and bitch FOR A LIVING.
Ling is kinda OP but he did exaggerate the recoverable health
Seeing someone lay it all out and show just how absurd it is to fight Yoshimitsu is really gratifying. Like, I feel better about the fact that I really struggle with this matchup. Seems like everyone does! Because that’s how he is designed! Great…
Personally I just can’t be mad about Yoshi. Flash has always been in the game and Yoshi was trash from 1994-2024. He deserves this
Other crazy thing about Yoshi is if you play Reina agains him you are not able to use sentai stance because everything you try to do lose agains flash even if you don't do nothing.
And yoshi players will still say he’s not broken 😂
must be years of yoshi conditioning. He's been bad in so many tekken games that the reflex kicks in
He’s not broken. lol
You watched 1 minute before commenting...
He’s not lol
@@erk489regenerating your health during a combo (not grey health) alone is broken with that crazy combo damage and carry
Whatever they do I really hope they don't nerf his defensive options. As a newcomer player who loves defense (played T3 as a kid, don't really think that counts much haha) I love that Yoshi is the only character that makes spammers shake in fear.
Excited about this one - just going through 2nd blue at least 70% of opponents are hwoarang and yoshi... so annoying
And the other 30% are Dragunov and Jin...
@@connorsutton8745 i would agree - but funny enough i only had like two dragunovs the whole week ^^
@@connorsutton8745 i rarely see dragunov tbh, i'd rather see him over characters like yoshimitsu or king
I especially love the flash on Leroy, when in situations near the wall, the flash beats all options after the i10 punish 123.
fair and balanced
You can power crush flash, you can orbital around flash, you can hit yoshimitsu before he uses flash if you can hit him before he has 6 frames of movement. Rage art beats all of those counters except the frame window, its not the same.
You still have to stop your entire game plan just because the threat of them doing it is there.... yeah you can do that for flash but what if he doesn't flash?
@@justhit6673 Its no different to what if they orbital, I cant do a low, what if they do a high crush, I cant jab, what if they sidestep, I cant use this move. The problem isnt flash, the problem is his healing and damage. If he wins an interaction, you have to work harder. It's a move, you have options that beat it, use them.
Sidestep also can mess up flash quite a bit since it's much better if aligned. Most people just try to mash into him when they're plus, especially with slower moves because they're thinking "I'm plus, therefore they can't even jab my 15 frame move!" even though it makes them hug right into the flash range with the start up.
@@Mandolin_AU there was options to beat tracking heat smashes , drag wr2, lili flip mix, yet those got nerfed from the amount of complains from pros and casuals... there's way counter play so why didn't they use them instead of complaining ?
@@justhit6673 Qcf3 is not comparable here, its an oki tool for grounded opponents. Drag wr2 nerf wouldnt have been needed if his other tools werent so fucked in the +6 situation. As for tracking heatsmashes, they break through armour dude, flash doesn't.
Flash is not the problem, it was stronger in t7 and noone complained then, hmm I wonder why, because its his damage and healing thats the problem. Personally I think the first way they should nerf him is make it he can only heal once per combo. Because currently he can easily do 3 or 4 heals per combo, sometimes more in certain situations.
"kin tech trap" or the guard break set up on wake up can be avoided if u back roll... It's a mix up where the fast version of the move hits your back roll but it can be tech rolled and the slower one that gives u guaranteed b2,2 on guard break can be back rolled...
I have made a video on it
th-cam.com/video/WB84zGSBF3s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=u4iXkb_kbp_9zCg6
I have made a video on it
th-cam.com/video/WB84zGSBF3s/w-d-xo.htmlsi=u4iXkb_kbp_9zCg6
He's mad because some yohsi player was trolling him and making him look like a noob.
All characters are broken AF. especially dragunov & nina
Yoshi is top tier in everyones tier list
The actual broken character would be King
I feel even better never rematching Yoshi player.
noob here - would you consider having your inputs on screen?
How come no one really talks about how yoshis hop kick UF4 somehow crushes some mids almost like old school lightning screw.
I'm shocked he didn't talk about Yoshi's hopknee and its evasion while going over the df2. That move is basically invincible.
I always seem to get blasted for using it. Skill issue I guess. =(
@@AngeloArcana hop knee was even more busted in Tekken 5 and going into TT2.
Yoshi hop Knee, Avoid the Puddle, and Df 4 have been that good forever. There’s just lots more favorable lows to actually punish. It’s probably something so old to him now that it’s not an issue.
Doesn’t hurt that it feels like they increased all sword hit boxes too with unreal engine 5.
I swear I was phasing through on every other game besides this one.
They also needed the unblockable lows hit box. It use to hit so much farther. It can go through peoples leg now if I’m too far.
He's not the only character that can heal permanent health. Heihachi also can do that in heat, he's stance parry heals him a lot
the key words there are ‘in heat’ and ‘stance parry’
Been saying this since week one. Dude has a stance visually distinct stance that, depending on the move he does AFTER, changes its frame date when entering it. Never seen a Heisenberg level mixup until this
Could you translate that to English?
@@Dr.Happy11skibidi toilet