Do not get any education at New York University Tisch School of the Art. As long as the guy in black is Arts Professor at the university, there is no chance you will get fair education.
Exactly. These groups that they’re belittling are actually more influential than their most famous American groups. They just think they’re the center of the world when other countries have a wider audience.
The audacity of this "expert", especially that caucasian man, mansplaining and very condescending about something they clearly refuse to research beforehand. And some of them are "professor".
I don't understand this analysis... When talking to my 17 year old daughter, who is a proud "Senior ARMY" of BTS, the reasons are totally different one's. BTS covers so many different aspects and facettes which are not even touched in this summary. But maybe we in Germany see BTS in a more deeper way...
@@kimberlybuena1782 i agreed with you that bts is way beyond kpop. Because i watch korean drama for almost 20 years and i never a fan of kpop. Until i found bts 2 years ago when i was 38 years old and became their fan 😏.. As an asian people who are familiar with kpop, i don't like kpop. If bts is typical kpop group, they couldn't make me their fan for sure 😉
@@cikjem i listen to kpop since 2010, never stan a group but only BTS make me want to stan since 2017. Its all started with song first love... Omg.... Their music are amazing n meaningful!! They really once in a lifetime group!
i think he is forgetting that the BEST selling album in the WORLD 2020 right now is MOTS7 BTS album and just koreans buying is not possible and before you talk about a topic isnt it necessary to research? Do you even know the demographics of the fandom? more that 90% of BTS fandom is not korean more that 75% of us are all adults. If you want to talk on poc artist selling stadiums around the world pls do some basic research. Why BTS is not just successful but a phenomenon? POC ASIAN artist becoming a household name and dominating AMERICAN CHARTS is unheard of. Why? because industry doesn't support them. *They do not give radio plays even if there is demand, charting in HOT100 with just the sales with no BUNDLES, no LOLLIPOPS, no PAYOLA* TIMES has named BTS as the most INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE in the world. I think you are a self proclaimed expert if you do not know the shift in the music industry after the raise of BTS. Regardless of whether you like them or not, I think everyone would know their impact in the western industry unless of course you are ignorant or don't want to admit that a poc artist is selling better than most of the artist charting currently.
just to note. The video showed this interview happened in Feb 2020, right after MOTS came out. They hadn't experienced all of the milestones of the full year yet. Not excusing the lack of research prior to that month, but we can't fault them for not knowing everything we know about 2020 and BTS's increasing growth.
This Jeff dude needs to be fired or something he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. It’s not surprising though, how much western music critics like to downplay BTS’s success because they just can’t comprehend it.
So true. For example, his analogy relating the popularity of country music in the US to K-Pop is completely irrelevant because the markets for K-pop vs. C&W are radically different....small-town America and urban youth America are distinct cultures.
they are obsessed to look into it cmon now it's been years since their rise in the west and yet these people cannot accept that fact then leading to them doing this repetitive discourse that just leads to people shtting on the boys, again
@@thevirtualjonathan1284 El impacto que tuvo su musica fuera de Asia haciendo que BTS sea el numero uno de los grupos con mas visitas de yotube en sus videos y quedando de tercer lugar en la todos los cantantes
@NillyC agree...BTS are beyond Kpop. What I meant here, is that people listen to music they like, whether its in English or Korean. BTS success and followed by KPop success in US and the world, proofed that "music transcends languange". But this white men refuse to acknowledge that other language than english can be a mainstream. I hope you understand what I mean..
I felt like some of these “experts” were pretty biased and uninformed on how powerful and impactful K-pop & BTS*** has been to American GP. We need more experts who are more aware and not closed off in the language barrier. “Music transcends language.”
The way some big American established artist’s struggle to fill up a stadium and bts can do it in a heartbeat without even having to depend on English songs....Jeff you don’t know what you are talking about
@@jmvpams1380 Which can't obviously can't do. They can't even invade Israel without the risk of its capital and its other major cities were razed to the ground by Israel's nuclear bombs.
*BTS sells out Rose bowl multiple times and plans 5 concerts in a row there before quarantine, becomes first foreign artist to play stadium in Saudi Arabia* Out of reach older man: yeah, maybe asian Americans can fill Medison square garden.
Imagine trying to downplay the success and efforts of global acts like BTS who have had to overcome so many social barriers just to get an inkling of the recognition as their Western, English-speaking peers, even as they out-chart them and out-sell them. Western media constantly treats them as some artificial phenomenon that came out of no where when in reality, BTS are highly involved in their craft, participating in music production, composition, songwriting, and directing. A whole Harvard case study was dedicated to understanding their success. To reduce them as a fleeting moment is to dismiss their artistry, a blatant display of xenophobia and ignorance.
Also they're seven years into their career! Seven!! Even the briefest glance at their chart history worldwide and in the US shows that they've grown slowly and steadily. Even five minutes' research would tell you they write much of their own music. Another five minutes would confirm they aren't controlled manufactured puppets. Calling them a 'fleeting kpop phenomenon' at this point is seriously laughable.
@@naffy113 it's the misogyny. big groups of male fans are described as "excited" and "enthusiastic", whereas female fans are always described "hysterical", "obsessed" and "rabid". society just really hates young women and their interests. (BTS' fanbase is a lot more diverse than that obviously but misogyny is still mostly what it boils down to)
이 영상에서 흥미로운 건 인터뷰하는 사람들이 여성, 남성, 백인, 흑인 등으로 이루어져 있는데 여성/유색인종에서 남성/백인으로 갈 수록 케이팝에 대한 태도가 굉장히 배타적이라는 겁니다. 아니, 배타적 이전에 팩트체크조차도 안하는 것에 놀라울 뿐입니다. 특히 제프 라반이라는 사람.. 망언의 페스티벌 수준인데, 이 사람 말에 굳이 반박을 하자면 1. "인기를 끄는 것이 아닌 음악적 부분에 영향을 줘야" ㄴ이 말은 곧 앨비스 프레슬리나 마이클잭슨, 비틀즈같은 씬체인저 수준이 아니면 전부 의미가 없다는 말입니다. 대중음악 역사 통틀어 이런 사람이 몇이나 되나요? 과연 케이팝 가수들이 미국 국적의 백인들이었다면 이런 지나치게 높은 잣대를 들이댔을까요? 2. "케이팝은 좋아하는 사람들만 좋아한다" ㄴ한마디로 대중성이 없다는 말인데.. 이미 음악 뿐 아니라 대중문화 자체가 갈 수록 파편화 되고 매니악해지고 있습니다. 물론 이는 급변하고 있는 미디어 산업에 따른 것이고요. 현재 빌보드 차트에 있는 뮤지션들만 보더라도 과거와 같은 파급력은 없지요. 케이팝은 오히려 이러한 시대적 변화의 미래를 보여주는 사례입니다. 하지만 제프라는 사람은 이에 대한 인식이 전혀 없네요. 그냥 '너드 문화야!'라고 답을 정해놓은 것 아닌지요. 3. "수출할 품목이 적으니 문화를 수출한다" ㄴ대한민국은 인구 5000만, 소득 30000달러 이상의 나라입니다. 이런 나라가 수출 품목이 적고 내수가 받쳐주지 못해서 어쩔 수 없이 문화를 수출한다는 게 상식에 맞는 말인가요? 혹자는 90년대 후반 외환위기 때를 들먹이던데, 그 시절에도 소득 10000달러하던 나라였습니다. 당시엔 결코 적은 수준이 아니고요. 물론 그 시절 연예인들도 다 돈벌고 빌딩 샀습니다. 애초에 한류가 세계로 나아간 건 이 시절 몸집을 키운 엔터테인먼트 회사들에 의한 것이라는 걸 아셔야지요. 각설하고, 단도직입적으로 묻고 싶습니다. 미국, 일본, 영국을 제외하고 대한민국정도의 인구, 소득, 문화산업 규모를 갖춘 나라가 몇이나 되는지.. 이 나라들은 왜 해외에서 인기를 끌지 못하는지.. 자국의 문화산업에 투자하지 않는 나라는 없습니다. 한국의 투자 또한 그들과 다르지 않습니다. 단지 절벽에서 떨어지지 말라고 손잡이 만들어주고, 힘들 때 쉬어가라고 의자 몇 개 놔준 걸 마치 직접 업어서 산꼭대기에 데려다 준 것처럼 왜곡하면 안 됩니다. 4. "음악이 선굵지가 않아서 그룹으로만 경험하게 된다" ㄴ한마디로 '멜로디도 모호하고 전체적으로 기승전결이 없는 음악이다', '이 이유는 그룹으로 욱여넣기 위함이다' 라는 말인데.. 반헤일런, AC/DC, 에어로스미스.. 이 그룹들의 공통점이 뭔지 아시나요? 바로 한국에서 유독 인기가 없는 그룹들이라는 겁니다. 그렇다면 왜 인기가 없는지 아시나요? 바로 선굵지 않은, 모호한 멜로디 때문입니다. 그렇습니다. 불과 십 수년 전만해도 이러한 음악은 한국인들 취향이 아니었습니다. 세월이 흐르고 여러 다양한 것들을 받아들이며 변화해온 것일 뿐이죠. 참고로 제프 씨가 말한 특징들은 오히려 아메리칸 하드락의 특징입니다. 그렇다면 아메리칸 하드락은 케이팝보다 하등 나을 것 없는 그저 그런 음악일 겁니다. 그리고 솔로로는 경쟁력이 없는(그룹으로만 경험한다고 했으니), 곧 사라질 이미테이션일 뿐이죠. 근데 하드락이 하등한가요? 아니, 음악 장르에 우열이 있나요? 근데 제프씨는 바로 이런 당연한 것을 간과하고 있는 겁니다. 음악은 그저 음악일 뿐이고 스타일이 다를 뿐인데 이걸 자기가 정해놓은 정답에 끼워맞추니 무리수를 두는 것이지요. 5. "특정 타겟층에 맞게 만들어진 캐릭터일 뿐" ㄴ제프 씨의 인종차별적 인식에 방점을 찍는 망언이라고 봅니다. 그들이 기계인가요? 다 스스로 원해서 하는 일이고 그 일을 하기 위해서 수 년에 걸친 하드 트레이닝을 견딘 사람들입니다. 그리고 지금 이순간에도 자신만의 세계를 위해 끊임없이 연구하고 노력합니다. 그 결과물은 솔로활동 때 가감없이 보여주고 대중에게 평가를 받지요. 하나 묻고 싶습니다. 제프 씨의 기준이라면 그 옛날 모타운(케이팝의 하드트레이닝, 기획력 등 거의 모든 시스템은 모타운에게서 영감을 받은 것) 출신 뮤지션들도 캐릭터일 뿐이냐고.. 마이클잭슨도 마찬가지겠지요? 6. "미국 내의 한국계 200만 명" ㄴ이 부분에서 '하~'하고 탄식이 나왔습니다. 한마디로 한국계들이 사주는 거지 '진짜 미국인들'은 관심이 없다는 말인데.. 이건 간단하게 BTS 콘서트 영상의 관중들 얼굴을 보면 알 수 있지 않나요? 유치원생도 할 수 있는 일입니다.
Jeff, you clearly didn’t do your research if you think the majority of fans buying tickets are Korean Americans. And they’re selling out tickets at stadiums. STADIUMS. No small feat. It really wouldn’t have been that hard to look a couple things up.
I'd like to point out how most (if not all) of the narritives and conclusions about kpop in this video is not true for BTS. I believe they have established an authentic relationship with their fans where they do not need to maintain a certain imagine (and Jimin drinking alcohol is nothing alarming to the fans since we're used to seeing bts drink pretty often) and this authenticity of BTS is deeply rooted in their music, the lyricism and production. Last but not the least, it's BTS phenomenon, and for someone to question it in the year 2020 is nothing but ridiculous, BTS are doing numbers that even mainstream American artists fail to, furthermore you have to acknowledge that a poc artist's road to success is harder (10 folds?) than a white, english speaking artist supported heavily by their label and radio
I honestly feel like it was a mistake to lump BTS into this whole discussion of Kpop because a lot of it doesn't apply to them. Even some of the statements made about Kpop I felt were generalizing too much, like how some companies do focus on marketing their group outside of Korea with a more "global" image with foreign members, but not all companies/groups do that. A lot of it, because of a lot of their uninformed opinions, came off as quite xenophobic....And lol the "some fans were shocked that he was drinking alcohol" now I know that they don't know anything and they're just talking on the little they saw >.>
I really applaud the two women at the end for the way they carried themselves in an informed, dignified way in the face of that self-righteous, xenophobic man who quiet frankly was displaying not only blatant ignorance but the very behaviour that will fuel the success of not only kpop artists but POC artists in western audiences overall. "People succeed when others are negative" ~Kim Seokjin (BTS 2017)
As a Korean I don’t completely disagree with him. Just because he doesn’t think BTS isn’t as popular as the others believe, does not make him a racist... These days every little thing makes u a racist. It’s low iq and toxic to have that mindset🙄
@@SKoreanKimchi nah, he definitely was trying to disregard BTS success and was being ethnocentric about it. I am a Korean too and the level of BTS and Korean Wave (Kpop, Kdramas, Food, etc…) is something else. I have been living in Southeast Asia and I have lived in Europe. The cultural influence Korea holds now is undeniable
This is the most misleading documentary/ video (or whatever you want to call it) I have ever seen. The fact that this ONE white person thinks that BTS' fandom is made up of Korean Americans is truly absurd. I am a Pakistani British and I am a fan because of the talent and their music. BTS Wembley concert was one of the most diverse concert to be ever held in the UK. And that concert was sold out within 3 hours with only less than a week notice and there were no empty seats, I witnessed this with my own eyes. This is such a huge deal. Even the biggest stars like Beyoncé and Rihanna had half of the stadium empty even though the concerts were supposedly sold out. And it took Taylor Swift, aka the biggest pop star, more than 7 MONTHS to sell out Wembley. And most of the so called Artist dont even sell music, the use mass radioplay, playlisting and heavy promotions deals to get on top of the charts. And literally sell bundles such as merchandise which is not music but it gets counted towards the digital sales. The only reason people get to know about new releases is through radioplay (payola), playlisting and promotions which BTS do not get or do (but still they out sell most of the Artist) because the are true Artists who love music for music and not for fame. Their album MOTS7 is the only pop album to go platium in the US in 2020 and is the 2nd most sold album in the US and the 1st most sold album worldwide. And yet this production guy had the audacity or should I say the caucasity to say they have no impact? This video is a shame to The New Yorker. Because you are literally let people in their 50s or above to speak for people who are significantly younger than them. They just lost all the respect I had for them.
You have to laugh at Jeff...or else berate him. All three ladies showed class in reacting to his very weak points. Let's give some criticism here to the show's producers who selected him and then didn't edit out his nonsense.
@@shirlylovenavid He even forgot the rest of the US population exists. There's actual data he can look up about their concerts' demographic if he wants to talk about it without sounding _that_ dumb. That was just straight up embarrassing. 😭
these so called "experts" need to do more research, the whole interview was biased and clearly ignorant... where's the facts and statistics though? why try to grp BTS with all other kpop artists?????? a simple phenomenon? "kpop doesnt need the US" ??? are you kidding me?
I don't see any problem with the statement that kpop doesn't need the us as she said, it is in terms of economic. That means even without the us market, kpop can do amazing with just China and Japan market as it is much bigger there. However, as gp in the us slowly becoming aware of kpop and eventually becoming fans especially with what we can see with BTS, the huge demand is there, hence the US market is being targeted as well.
BSB was put together, Nsync was put together, fifth harmony was put together, 1D was put together. The US pop industry is also very manufactured, despite Jeff pushing the tired narrative that the kpop industry is the only manufactured one and far less authentic. And he wants to talk about impacting all the music around you to be a true phenomenon...BTS's MOTS7 album went #1 in every single one of the largest music markets in the world: the US, Japan, the UK, germany, france, south Korea, canada, australia, brazil etc and I can go one and on. No other artist achieved that this year. Not Ariana or gaga or shawn mendes or bieber or anyone else. It's also the best selling album worldwide. Not even america's so-called sweetheart taylor swift could match their global sales. How could Bts not be a phenomenon? They went on a GLOBAL STADIUM TOUR last year, how many other american artists did that off the top of your head???? Bet you can't name even one. But that's not a phenomenon right? Only korean americans would be into them. Guess the world is only full of Asians packing stadiums then. English isn't even the first language in many countries yet you don't question why your american artists are welcomed and their music is enjoyed in other countries, but when it's Asians and bts and kpop we need to dissect it like a dead frog in a high school biology class. All the records their previous 3 #1 albums in the US broke (since I realize this video was done much earlier this year) no other american/non-american artist had been able to achieve that. Jeff really needs to update his music knowledge because clearly the world is passing him by while he's stuck in a time machine lost in the past.
@@pppLT19 I mentioned more recent groups since those are usually who they get compared with or to. But yes you are right about those older ones as well.
All I remember were fans telling the girl who was drinking and playing with jimin and his friend to not post him since he was on vacation if I’m remembering correctly
@@jessicalovett561 i wasn't army last year so I don't understand what the problem is. can u explain it to me pls, was because he was drinking with a girl like a date or something like that?
@@marielroman6717 he was out with friends, met some other people. They were all sitting at a table in al place that could look like a restaurant, not nightclub type place. Nothing unusual about it. korea has a strong drinking culture. Anyways those "other people" decided to film them having a good, slightly inebriated time and posted it. It was unfair to Jimin who was being funny and adorable overall, playing games. It was a violation. As expected, unfortunately many people saw this and reacted adversly towards Jimin.
I'm honestly so angry that videos like this even have to exist. there's so much freaking xenophobia and flat out racism around kpop it's unreal. I appreciate the few on this panel who knew what they were talking about, but the overall tone pushing kpop as manufactured, fake, and a fad is so disappointingly cliche and tired, especially if you are talking about bts. it's the same old gatekeeping rhetoric.
in the TIME magazine interview, right? i think so! more discussions about what k-pop is are definitely needed, especially on larger scales. so i guess this is a step.
And know for a fact that "international" is not "American". BTS have conquered the Korean scene, International scene INCLUDING America. Your debate has to include valid points not partial opinions. I'm honestly very much disappointed with this kind of discussion. Learn and do bit of research on Korean music next time .
Jeff, are you really that threatened by the success of Korean musicians that you’d do anything to diminish their impact? Don’t worry, no matter how much you try, they will still succeed above you. No one will remember your name but BTS will be remembered by millions of people around the world in history. Keep talking! No one cares.
BTS has taken off in America. No other Korean group has the impact of BTS, no other Korean group was able to sell out 15 stadiums in America also multiple stadiums in Brasil, Wembley, Paris, Saudi Arabia. BTS has also sky rocketed this year in Japan, which is the second important music market after US. That Jeff 'expert" dude is living under a rock. 90% of the audience of BTS concerts are not Asians or Koreans. Also, these people were interviewed back in February, so why is New Yorker releasing this video at the end of 2020, I wonder?? (Right after BTS has received a much deserved Grammy nom??)
Does that man realise that BTS penetrated music markets that even American musicians could only dream of. Map of the Soul is the most successful international album 2020 in my country. They beat every American Album. This man has to understand that America is not the only country in the world and that BTS are more successful worldwide than most American artists
Yeahh i want them react to BTS music too including b-sides with translations. I want to see their faces when they realized how much they missing out this amazing group with amazing artistry of their music!
It is sad that some of the "experts" chosen to discuss kpop truly knew nothing about the culture. As an ARMY i also find it not only insulting to BTS, but all kpop acts to say the time they take to have contact is purely just a "fan service." You constantly showed J Hope's moments shared with ARMY with zero context behind the posts calling it "fan service." One photo you showed was posted strictly to BTS's own fan page sharing with ARMY that Mickey (his dog) was getting older and he was worried/sad about it. That post is not something people would say is a "fan service". Also its sad that none of these "experts" spoke about lyrical impact. Just clumping all the songs into a "sounds exactly the same cant tell people apart" group. Ask any fan of any Kpop act and i am sure you would not hear that statement made, it also insults the musical talent of all kpop artists. Instead of showing kpop respect this honestly was often very insulting. Saying that they strive to be all the same clearly shows your extreme lack of journalistic research when many groups strive to show the differences of there members. Saying that fans are "buying" the idols? Do you even listen to yourselves?! Ms Choi was really the only one id listen to.
If you're going to do something like this again kindly get people that actually did their research, this was bathed in ignorance and such thinly veiled distaste for kpop in general.
7:32 The highlighted individual is not Chinese, yet she was singled out when the speaker spoke about Chinese members. This is a group with a Thai member.
I think they meant to highlight Lisa as a Thai member, but the person doing the editing mistook Jisoo for Lisa. Apparently they aren't familiar with Blackpink. 🤷♀️
OF COURSE it’s the middle age white man who has to down play BTS as having a “little success.” Of course it’s the middle age white man who has to make fun of what the female panelist is saying “omg, they were on Ellen?”
Why would you pick an "expert " like the Clive Davis guy whose company is in direct competition with kpop , particularly BTS?? Clearly his takes are full of bias lol
Gosh, I love the way Dr Chrystal Anderson put the smack down on that guy at the end - her point that, you know what, while there is prestige associated with making it big in the US, K-Pop does not need the US, the US is not the centre of the world was 🔥🔥🔥
International =/= American some people forget than bts was already selling out concert tickets in south america, europe, asia and the US before they were even invited to the bbmas back in 2017
For something labeled as "experts", that Jeff man saying that only BTS fans will like BTS is the most incorrect thing EVER. The fact that they're able to pull in fans simply by their live performances on award or TV shows, or by their speeches, or fancams...that's proof that just because this yt man doesn't like them, doesn't mean that so many other people haven't easily fallen in love with them over the years.
You are so right! I am an american adult who was not born a “fan.” I saw a performance and became a fan. Why act like there is a preordained limit to BTS’s fans. The number grows daily.
This Rabhan guy (whom I've never heard of by the way) talking about how BTS isn't a phenomenon when they have literally shaped and shifted how western artist have started to sell their albums/music... Now many of them are selling various albums, vinyls, and etc with different covers for increase in sells as well as inserting little photos as collectables (ie. like photocards that can be found in kpop albums). The only difference is that BTS has been able to sell music and not merch bundled with music to be able to attain their #1 on Hot100 and Top200. So yes they are a PHENOMENON (and not just a fad) that has been able to sustain themselves thru physical copies unlike their western counterparts whom rely heavily on streams and playlists. Additionally, he's statement saying that BTS can only sustain themselves successfully through the Asian-American market which is borderline derogatory/xenophobic towards them cause it alludes to that only Asian can like this type of music. I can assure you as a 26 year old Mexican-American women who was raised predominantly with Spanish speaking parents that I full heartedly love their music and what they invoke through their message. Just like Latin artists were once deemed outsiders in the music industry they have slowly broken down the walls built by white English speaking gatekeepers.
This was a very interesting discussion, the three women's points of view were pretty great. That being said, i disagree with everything Jeff Rabhan said.
that tisch guy came off as extremely condescending not only on the way he was talking out kpop and BTS’s success but also in the way he was talking and responding to some of the women in this interview. The sarcastic tone when talking about BTS’s interview on Ellen was so unnecessary.
Even in India, there are people who adore K Pop! It is truly a force to reckon with! Their power is not limited or constrained by a so - called "market"!
It's kinda hilarious how Jeff Rabhan needs a studio background and condescending tone to seem more authoritative. Anyways, I've been a kpop fan since 2008 and it's only getting more popular. Kpop's been internationally popular since the 90s with HOT, Shinhwa, etc. Kpop will continue to be popular until other countries produce better groups + better fan interaction (variety shows, etc).
2 things: 1) at 7:33 you guys highlighted Jisoo, but were talking about foreign members of kpop groups. As far as I know, Jisoo’s the ONLY member of blackpink who has never lived outside of Korea. 2) As a long time k-pop and history fan, I really loved watching this video. ESPECIALLY the parts when the commentators got into tiny disagreements. Also, loved how you guys pointed out at the end that America, until recently, hasn’t been the main target of Kpop’s reach. It’s been China and Japan.
Holy sh*t this one dude, I am laughcrying TT Has the success of BTS in the US hurt him in some personal way? It certainly feels that way.. Like was he also indicating that those 2m korean americans are the sole reason BTS are out selling and out performing most of their american counterparts on all those other US-charts? The math ain't mathing here bruh
I am pure indian and yes I do listen to BTS songs, jeff need to know more about BTS. Lmao he thinks only korean-american listens to BTS song!! He is totally wrong!! Who put him in this video?? He should be more professional
@@thevirtualjonathan1284 I just found out on Twitter that this interview was done in Feb🙃 I wonder what he has to say now that they got 3 #1 bb100 and grammy nom
Cause you know, someone with maybe a “little success” but no real impact gets to be named Entertainer of the Year by Time Magazine. And sell out stadiums across the globe. And have a million people tune in for their live online concert. Cause you know, it’s really only the Korean Americans who like them.
Mr. Rabhan is the best example for how entitled and racist the western music market is. I wish he would be open to educate himself, but he was quite obviously proud of his ignorance. Oh well.
22:43 but i don't remember anyone saying anything about the alcohol?? Nobody had a problem with him drinking, that debate just straight up didn't happen lmao. It was about the invasion of privacy which sparked a discussion, or rather everyone just having enough of sasaengs. That's why it blew up a bit
Why is he so proud of his ignorance? I personally think being uninformed or ignorant on a subject is such a big thing, but if you're going to be so bitter and condescending when you yourself are SO SO IGNORANT is just disgusting
BTS are literally pulling all these massive PHYSICAL album sales in a DIGITAL world era. if that does not show how large their audience range is, I don't know what is. Let's be honest who would buy $35 album at this time? Let alone a $70 without bundles? But BTS is really slaying it with these pure sales not just in US but world-wide making it look effortless. Even the mainstream artists right now can't pull those numbers fr.
this is an absoulutely, disgustingly offensive video. how about americans stop trying to explain what kpop is through their own xenophobic lens and stop talking about people like they're goods to be manufactured and exported. these 'experts' should be ashamed.
something else these "experts" are missing out is that the audience is hungry for music that they can relate to and this also the reason why BTS stands out among kpop artists & western artists is because they go beyond the usual love themes in pop music or trashy themes in hiphop music. their sound may be pop, hiphop, edm, kpop or whatever but they speak of personal struggles, success, confusion, anxiety, love for their craft, loves for their fans and a vast variety of topics no artist has done. their music & their journey is not only about self-gain and that is touching their audience.
I may disagree with some of the opinions but THANK YOU to the New Yorker for having an intelligent, sincere, and diverse points of views. We really need more serious discourses like this on Kpop!
They sing and look like angels . They dance like the devil. Their lyrics address topics beside getting laid and getting high. They share a connection with their fans that western artists rarely have.
Jeff Rabhan is the current chair of the Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music at Tisch School at NYU.... wow, Please Educate Jeff Rabhan again.... He seems to just vomited on the institute's principles. Such bitter man. This is an expert? hahahaha very low bar... racist hypocrite.
"They are on Ellen?" The sarcasm and pettiness is really on brand with ya Jeff. Also other guy talked about PURITY of pop music and most being shown are white (or white passing) musicians. Very telling.
it has been interesting to see artists like taylor swift, jonas brothers, and shawn mendes alter their album packaging to have multiple versions and goodies as is traditionally done in kpop albums. many western artists have completely changed the way they interact with fans to mirror k-industry fan interactions/service. And concerts, i’ve seen so many western artists take a page out of the k-industry’s book when it comes to concert tech and format. in talking about the the western/ american perspective of what kpop is and what its impact it’s imperative to take an honest look at the gatekeeping, xenophobia, and racism that is rampant in the US music industry. There is a desire to label everything and put it in boxes, that’s why there is a whole other grammy awards just for latin artists. And every once in awhile the music industry will allow a latin song in through the gate, if they’re feeling frisky that day or as long as it has a feature with a western artist. it mirrors the way they kept rap out of the mainstream and weaponized media to demonize the genre until they could make money off it. the fact that despite that kpop has started to enter american consciousness, speaks to significant impact already
I gave the video a like even though Jeff doesn't really know what he's talking about because everyone else in the video were actual experts on the topic
Experts? These are just opinions. Funny how you release this now considering the Grammys are around the corner. Trying to diminish foreign artists because most American artists lack a change in music. Referring to it all sounds the same or has been done. Studies show majority of fan’s age is 20s to 50s and professionals. Not rabid. Would you consider my parents that are 70 rabid? I don’t think so. Furthermore the stadium’s would sell out across the US not just to a certain demographic. The fans of Kpop music are very diverse in age, color and gender. The messages and story lines within their music are a really interesting aspect as well.
9 minutes in and no mention of the role of Los Angeles and kyopos in LA, listening to hip hop and R&B and church music etc. When I think of early influences & origins there are ties with the diaspora, 1st and 2nd gen jemie kyopos, their language and cultural hybridities/fluidities, coming of age in US and playing a role in culture industries of SK in the 1990s. That, and the yoohaeksaeng studying abroad too.
The premise itself to put BTS into discussion in the same category as general kpop is already false. BTS stands on its own so ahead of umbrella term of kpop. BTS have intertwined storyline throughout their extensive discography, they’re heavily involved in writing lyrics & producing their songs, they deal with much deeper themes and reflections than most Kpop - social political economical issues, self love and mental health, etc. I appreciated all three women’s perspective. But it was ridiculously funny that two white males were so skeptical/incredulous of human connection through music and authenticity when it is obvious they never even looked into the world of BTS.
The Jeff dude (sorry I can’t consider him professional enough to think of any other title) having the audacity to say that Korean Americans buy their concert tickets and albums was the most absurd ignorant thing I’ve ever heard. I live in Los Angeles, heavily populated with Korean Americans, and none of my Korean American friends are BTS fans. Also none of my friends in Korea are BTS fans either. But I know many White and Latina ARMYs.
I just love all the things that this Jeff guy is saying. He's giving me all the motivation I need to buy more and more BTS music, every time I feel like it's too much, I'll remember my dear guy Jeff and I'll immediately buy some more. Thank you dear xenophobes of the music industry, you're making BTS even more successful day by day 💜.
The tisch guy conflates “ international “ with “ American “ audiences ... kpop is already International beyond American audiences
Do not get any education at New York University Tisch School of the Art. As long as the guy in black is Arts Professor at the university, there is no chance you will get fair education.
Exactly. These groups that they’re belittling are actually more influential than their most famous American groups. They just think they’re the center of the world when other countries have a wider audience.
The audacity of this "expert", especially that caucasian man, mansplaining and very condescending about something they clearly refuse to research beforehand. And some of them are "professor".
I don't understand this analysis... When talking to my 17 year old daughter, who is a proud "Senior ARMY" of BTS, the reasons are totally different one's. BTS covers so many different aspects and facettes which are not even touched in this summary. But maybe we in Germany see BTS in a more deeper way...
because bts is way beyond kpop. others see kpop as a fad, something that just comes and goes, but not bts
@@kimberlybuena1782 i agreed with you that bts is way beyond kpop. Because i watch korean drama for almost 20 years and i never a fan of kpop. Until i found bts 2 years ago when i was 38 years old and became their fan 😏.. As an asian people who are familiar with kpop, i don't like kpop. If bts is typical kpop group, they couldn't make me their fan for sure 😉
@@cikjem i listen to kpop since 2010, never stan a group but only BTS make me want to stan since 2017. Its all started with song first love... Omg.... Their music are amazing n meaningful!! They really once in a lifetime group!
They’ve never listened to bts’s music 😏
I would really love to listen to your daughter than this... it’s really poor and such a shame for “experts” being this close minded and ignorant :/
i think he is forgetting that the BEST selling album in the WORLD 2020 right now is MOTS7 BTS album and just koreans buying is not possible and before you talk about a topic isnt it necessary to research? Do you even know the demographics of the fandom? more that 90% of BTS fandom is not korean more that 75% of us are all adults. If you want to talk on poc artist selling stadiums around the world pls do some basic research.
Why BTS is not just successful but a phenomenon?
POC ASIAN artist becoming a household name and dominating AMERICAN CHARTS is unheard of.
Why? because industry doesn't support them. *They do not give radio plays even if there is demand, charting in HOT100 with just the sales with no BUNDLES, no LOLLIPOPS, no PAYOLA*
TIMES has named BTS as the most INFLUENTIAL PEOPLE in the world. I think you are a self proclaimed expert if you do not know the shift in the music industry after the raise of BTS. Regardless of whether you like them or not, I think everyone would know their impact in the western industry unless of course you are ignorant or don't want to admit that a poc artist is selling better than most of the artist charting currently.
mots7 is also the 2nd best selling album pure in his country
just to note. The video showed this interview happened in Feb 2020, right after MOTS came out. They hadn't experienced all of the milestones of the full year yet. Not excusing the lack of research prior to that month, but we can't fault them for not knowing everything we know about 2020 and BTS's increasing growth.
@@marzjmoon5601 wait but I saw a snippet of Dynamite, which came out in august ??
@@Catherin-mw2ow I'm talking about the interview parts. not the edits.
How can that man is so ignorant and proud of it? And he's a professor in NYU?
Right?? It have to be a joke...
he's not only a professor but the chair of his department
@@hyoyeonlee1164 Wow. He is so closed minded, arrogant and uninformed.
@@Theoanno7 absolutely, its really troubling that a lot of boards and departments are chaired by white men like him
@@hyoyeonlee1164 i really wonder why they waited till now to publish this if it was filmed back in Feb...
This Jeff dude needs to be fired or something he doesn’t know what he’s talking about. It’s not surprising though, how much western music critics like to downplay BTS’s success because they just can’t comprehend it.
So true. For example, his analogy relating the popularity of country music in the US to K-Pop is completely irrelevant because the markets for K-pop vs. C&W are radically different....small-town America and urban youth America are distinct cultures.
a lot of white americans are awfully intent on dissecting the reason behind bts’ success while at the same time completely disregarding their impact.
they are obsessed to look into it cmon now it's been years since their rise in the west and yet these people cannot accept that fact then leading to them doing this repetitive discourse that just leads to people shtting on the boys, again
What impact?
This comment has more likes than the video. 🤣🤣
@@thevirtualjonathan1284 El impacto que tuvo su musica fuera de Asia haciendo que BTS sea el numero uno de los grupos con mas visitas de yotube en sus videos y quedando de tercer lugar en la todos los cantantes
@@thevirtualjonathan1284 el impacto de BTS , se nota , porque al ver el titulo del video diciendo ¨kpop¨ ya todos sabíamos que iban a hablar de BTS
KPop artist, esp BTS: "music trancends languange"
This white men: "must speak english! Otherwise they are fake!"
@NillyC agree...BTS are beyond Kpop. What I meant here, is that people listen to music they like, whether its in English or Korean. BTS success and followed by KPop success in US and the world, proofed that "music transcends languange". But this white men refuse to acknowledge that other language than english can be a mainstream. I hope you understand what I mean..
Music has no language
I felt like some of these “experts” were pretty biased and uninformed on how powerful and impactful K-pop & BTS*** has been to American GP. We need more experts who are more aware and not closed off in the language barrier.
“Music transcends language.”
It was incredibly negatively biased and uninformed :/ I felt like there were way too many generalizations too...
YESSSSS!!!! They were extremely uninformed!
@@lilydragoneel4170 yes!!! clearly they have not paid attention to charts, awards & achievements. Clearly in denial
The way some big American established artist’s struggle to fill up a stadium and bts can do it in a heartbeat without even having to depend on English songs....Jeff you don’t know what you are talking about
"Educate yourself on the history and implications of systemic racism."
"American" is not equal to "international".
Unless the US annexed the entire planet
@@jmvpams1380 That's a meme out of HOI4 lol
So true!
@@jmvpams1380 Which can't obviously can't do. They can't even invade Israel without the risk of its capital and its other major cities were razed to the ground by Israel's nuclear bombs.
@@jmvpams1380 So EZZ
Some Americans think the world revolves around them ..
Don't they know that Hollywood and their entertainment industry now have to heavily depend on China lol
*BTS sells out Rose bowl multiple times and plans 5 concerts in a row there before quarantine, becomes first foreign artist to play stadium in Saudi Arabia*
Out of reach older man: yeah, maybe asian Americans can fill Medison square garden.
Imagine trying to downplay the success and efforts of global acts like BTS who have had to overcome so many social barriers just to get an inkling of the recognition as their Western, English-speaking peers, even as they out-chart them and out-sell them. Western media constantly treats them as some artificial phenomenon that came out of no where when in reality, BTS are highly involved in their craft, participating in music production, composition, songwriting, and directing. A whole Harvard case study was dedicated to understanding their success. To reduce them as a fleeting moment is to dismiss their artistry, a blatant display of xenophobia and ignorance.
Yaaaassssss!!!!!👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Also they're seven years into their career! Seven!! Even the briefest glance at their chart history worldwide and in the US shows that they've grown slowly and steadily. Even five minutes' research would tell you they write much of their own music. Another five minutes would confirm they aren't controlled manufactured puppets. Calling them a 'fleeting kpop phenomenon' at this point is seriously laughable.
BTS outselling all of the American Artist= "little success" 🙄
Not really. We don't buy CDs anymore
@@itsbeyondme5560 Korea has been way ahead of digital music contents; its the fan loyalty that keeps buying CDs
If that man calls fans rabid one more time... Until I get rabies, I should never hear that word describing me. lol
I don't understand why that word is continued to be used...
@@naffy113 it's the misogyny. big groups of male fans are described as "excited" and "enthusiastic", whereas female fans are always described "hysterical", "obsessed" and "rabid". society just really hates young women and their interests. (BTS' fanbase is a lot more diverse than that obviously but misogyny is still mostly what it boils down to)
I think you know he didn't mean to call you rabid specifically. Just the general fan-base of Kpop cause you know how bad it can get.
I think you know he didn't mean to call you rabid specifically. Just the general fan-base of Kpop cause you know how bad it can get.
이 영상에서 흥미로운 건 인터뷰하는 사람들이 여성, 남성, 백인, 흑인 등으로 이루어져 있는데 여성/유색인종에서 남성/백인으로 갈 수록 케이팝에 대한 태도가 굉장히 배타적이라는 겁니다. 아니, 배타적 이전에 팩트체크조차도 안하는 것에 놀라울 뿐입니다.
특히 제프 라반이라는 사람.. 망언의 페스티벌 수준인데, 이 사람 말에 굳이 반박을 하자면
1. "인기를 끄는 것이 아닌 음악적 부분에 영향을 줘야"
ㄴ이 말은 곧 앨비스 프레슬리나 마이클잭슨, 비틀즈같은 씬체인저 수준이 아니면 전부 의미가 없다는 말입니다. 대중음악 역사 통틀어 이런 사람이 몇이나 되나요? 과연 케이팝 가수들이 미국 국적의 백인들이었다면 이런 지나치게 높은 잣대를 들이댔을까요?
2. "케이팝은 좋아하는 사람들만 좋아한다"
ㄴ한마디로 대중성이 없다는 말인데.. 이미 음악 뿐 아니라 대중문화 자체가 갈 수록 파편화 되고 매니악해지고 있습니다. 물론 이는 급변하고 있는 미디어 산업에 따른 것이고요. 현재 빌보드 차트에 있는 뮤지션들만 보더라도 과거와 같은 파급력은 없지요. 케이팝은 오히려 이러한 시대적 변화의 미래를 보여주는 사례입니다. 하지만 제프라는 사람은 이에 대한 인식이 전혀 없네요. 그냥 '너드 문화야!'라고 답을 정해놓은 것 아닌지요.
3. "수출할 품목이 적으니 문화를 수출한다"
ㄴ대한민국은 인구 5000만, 소득 30000달러 이상의 나라입니다. 이런 나라가 수출 품목이 적고 내수가 받쳐주지 못해서 어쩔 수 없이 문화를 수출한다는 게 상식에 맞는 말인가요? 혹자는 90년대 후반 외환위기 때를 들먹이던데, 그 시절에도 소득 10000달러하던 나라였습니다. 당시엔 결코 적은 수준이 아니고요. 물론 그 시절 연예인들도 다 돈벌고 빌딩 샀습니다. 애초에 한류가 세계로 나아간 건 이 시절 몸집을 키운 엔터테인먼트 회사들에 의한 것이라는 걸 아셔야지요.
각설하고, 단도직입적으로 묻고 싶습니다. 미국, 일본, 영국을 제외하고 대한민국정도의 인구, 소득, 문화산업 규모를 갖춘 나라가 몇이나 되는지.. 이 나라들은 왜 해외에서 인기를 끌지 못하는지..
자국의 문화산업에 투자하지 않는 나라는 없습니다. 한국의 투자 또한 그들과 다르지 않습니다. 단지 절벽에서 떨어지지 말라고 손잡이 만들어주고, 힘들 때 쉬어가라고 의자 몇 개 놔준 걸 마치 직접 업어서 산꼭대기에 데려다 준 것처럼 왜곡하면 안 됩니다.
4. "음악이 선굵지가 않아서 그룹으로만 경험하게 된다"
ㄴ한마디로 '멜로디도 모호하고 전체적으로 기승전결이 없는 음악이다', '이 이유는 그룹으로 욱여넣기 위함이다' 라는 말인데.. 반헤일런, AC/DC, 에어로스미스.. 이 그룹들의 공통점이 뭔지 아시나요? 바로 한국에서 유독 인기가 없는 그룹들이라는 겁니다. 그렇다면 왜 인기가 없는지 아시나요? 바로 선굵지 않은, 모호한 멜로디 때문입니다. 그렇습니다. 불과 십 수년 전만해도 이러한 음악은 한국인들 취향이 아니었습니다. 세월이 흐르고 여러 다양한 것들을 받아들이며 변화해온 것일 뿐이죠.
참고로 제프 씨가 말한 특징들은 오히려 아메리칸 하드락의 특징입니다. 그렇다면 아메리칸 하드락은 케이팝보다 하등 나을 것 없는 그저 그런 음악일 겁니다. 그리고 솔로로는 경쟁력이 없는(그룹으로만 경험한다고 했으니), 곧 사라질 이미테이션일 뿐이죠. 근데 하드락이 하등한가요? 아니, 음악 장르에 우열이 있나요? 근데 제프씨는 바로 이런 당연한 것을 간과하고 있는 겁니다. 음악은 그저 음악일 뿐이고 스타일이 다를 뿐인데 이걸 자기가 정해놓은 정답에 끼워맞추니 무리수를 두는 것이지요.
5. "특정 타겟층에 맞게 만들어진 캐릭터일 뿐"
ㄴ제프 씨의 인종차별적 인식에 방점을 찍는 망언이라고 봅니다. 그들이 기계인가요? 다 스스로 원해서 하는 일이고 그 일을 하기 위해서 수 년에 걸친 하드 트레이닝을 견딘 사람들입니다. 그리고 지금 이순간에도 자신만의 세계를 위해 끊임없이 연구하고 노력합니다. 그 결과물은 솔로활동 때 가감없이 보여주고 대중에게 평가를 받지요.
하나 묻고 싶습니다. 제프 씨의 기준이라면 그 옛날 모타운(케이팝의 하드트레이닝, 기획력 등 거의 모든 시스템은 모타운에게서 영감을 받은 것) 출신 뮤지션들도 캐릭터일 뿐이냐고.. 마이클잭슨도 마찬가지겠지요?
6. "미국 내의 한국계 200만 명"
ㄴ이 부분에서 '하~'하고 탄식이 나왔습니다. 한마디로 한국계들이 사주는 거지 '진짜 미국인들'은 관심이 없다는 말인데.. 이건 간단하게 BTS 콘서트 영상의 관중들 얼굴을 보면 알 수 있지 않나요? 유치원생도 할 수 있는 일입니다.
@dkskqkek1 - 너무 감사합니다! 🙏🏻 Thank you so much for your eloquent & detailed comment.
많이 배우신 분... 나도 이런 생각이 들었지만 가독성 있게 잘 풀어내시네
The nerve of Jeff and Simon to serve their xenophobia as critique. Hilarious. Not surprising. Very typical.
Jeff, you clearly didn’t do your research if you think the majority of fans buying tickets are Korean Americans. And they’re selling out tickets at stadiums. STADIUMS. No small feat. It really wouldn’t have been that hard to look a couple things up.
Also they should have known that BTS concerts sell out moments after ticket sells are available.
The dude in black just excudes ignorance and a pure xenophobic mindset
god again the group project agenda concerning bts' sucess.. i'm annoyed
I'd like to point out how most (if not all) of the narritives and conclusions about kpop in this video is not true for BTS. I believe they have established an authentic relationship with their fans where they do not need to maintain a certain imagine (and Jimin drinking alcohol is nothing alarming to the fans since we're used to seeing bts drink pretty often) and this authenticity of BTS is deeply rooted in their music, the lyricism and production. Last but not the least, it's BTS phenomenon, and for someone to question it in the year 2020 is nothing but ridiculous, BTS are doing numbers that even mainstream American artists fail to, furthermore you have to acknowledge that a poc artist's road to success is harder (10 folds?) than a white, english speaking artist supported heavily by their label and radio
i was about to say whooo was shocked by jimin drinking in paris when theyve actually been drinking on screen since 2017 and if not before???
@@sweeto04 please jungkook even drunk in vlive lol 😂😂
@@snisa92 Night apple is poison apple, but yeah we're all completely shocked by the fact that they drink alcohol :D :D
I was heavily confused by a lot of what they were saying, and I really think it's bc I'm not really a fan of any earlier or later kpop groups...
I honestly feel like it was a mistake to lump BTS into this whole discussion of Kpop because a lot of it doesn't apply to them. Even some of the statements made about Kpop I felt were generalizing too much, like how some companies do focus on marketing their group outside of Korea with a more "global" image with foreign members, but not all companies/groups do that. A lot of it, because of a lot of their uninformed opinions, came off as quite xenophobic....And lol the "some fans were shocked that he was drinking alcohol" now I know that they don't know anything and they're just talking on the little they saw >.>
An example of someone who doesnt know how to do a proper research and use "Dude, trust me" as his resources...Tisch guy please do your research...
I really applaud the two women at the end for the way they carried themselves in an informed, dignified way in the face of that self-righteous, xenophobic man who quiet frankly was displaying not only blatant ignorance but the very behaviour that will fuel the success of not only kpop artists but POC artists in western audiences overall. "People succeed when others are negative" ~Kim Seokjin (BTS 2017)
As a Korean I don’t completely disagree with him. Just because he doesn’t think BTS isn’t as popular as the others believe, does not make him a racist...
These days every little thing makes u a racist. It’s low iq and toxic to have that mindset🙄
@@SKoreanKimchi nah, he definitely was trying to disregard BTS success and was being ethnocentric about it. I am a Korean too and the level of BTS and Korean Wave (Kpop, Kdramas, Food, etc…) is something else. I have been living in Southeast Asia and I have lived in Europe. The cultural influence Korea holds now is undeniable
I find it ironic for the Western music industry to question the authenticity of k-pop when their own industry is full of fakes.
This is the most misleading documentary/ video (or whatever you want to call it) I have ever seen. The fact that this ONE white person thinks that BTS' fandom is made up of Korean Americans is truly absurd. I am a Pakistani British and I am a fan because of the talent and their music.
BTS Wembley concert was one of the most diverse concert to be ever held in the UK. And that concert was sold out within 3 hours with only less than a week notice and there were no empty seats, I witnessed this with my own eyes. This is such a huge deal. Even the biggest stars like Beyoncé and Rihanna had half of the stadium empty even though the concerts were supposedly sold out. And it took Taylor Swift, aka the biggest pop star, more than 7 MONTHS to sell out Wembley.
And most of the so called Artist dont even sell music, the use mass radioplay, playlisting and heavy promotions deals to get on top of the charts. And literally sell bundles such as merchandise which is not music but it gets counted towards the digital sales.
The only reason people get to know about new releases is through radioplay (payola), playlisting and promotions which BTS do not get or do (but still they out sell most of the Artist) because the are true Artists who love music for music and not for fame.
Their album MOTS7 is the only pop album to go platium in the US in 2020 and is the 2nd most sold album in the US and the 1st most sold album worldwide.
And yet this production guy had the audacity or should I say the caucasity to say they have no impact?
This video is a shame to The New Yorker. Because you are literally let people in their 50s or above to speak for people who are significantly younger than them.
They just lost all the respect I had for them.
All the ladies here are really cool especially Stephanie Choi , I loved the way she asked " what is real " to Jeff 👍 Also the way she laughed at him 👍
You have to laugh at Jeff...or else berate him. All three ladies showed class in reacting to his very weak points. Let's give some criticism here to the show's producers who selected him and then didn't edit out his nonsense.
Dude, assuming BTS need Korean-Americans to sell out in the US... that's embarrassing... who's gonna tell him?
They forgot the rest of the world exist 😂😂😂💅💅
@@shirlylovenavid He even forgot the rest of the US population exists. There's actual data he can look up about their concerts' demographic if he wants to talk about it without sounding _that_ dumb. That was just straight up embarrassing. 😭
these so called "experts" need to do more research, the whole interview was biased and clearly ignorant... where's the facts and statistics though? why try to grp BTS with all other kpop artists?????? a simple phenomenon? "kpop doesnt need the US" ??? are you kidding me?
I don't see any problem with the statement that kpop doesn't need the us as she said, it is in terms of economic. That means even without the us market, kpop can do amazing with just China and Japan market as it is much bigger there. However, as gp in the us slowly becoming aware of kpop and eventually becoming fans especially with what we can see with BTS, the huge demand is there, hence the US market is being targeted as well.
BSB was put together, Nsync was put together, fifth harmony was put together, 1D was put together. The US pop industry is also very manufactured, despite Jeff pushing the tired narrative that the kpop industry is the only manufactured one and far less authentic. And he wants to talk about impacting all the music around you to be a true phenomenon...BTS's MOTS7 album went #1 in every single one of the largest music markets in the world: the US, Japan, the UK, germany, france, south Korea, canada, australia, brazil etc and I can go one and on. No other artist achieved that this year. Not Ariana or gaga or shawn mendes or bieber or anyone else. It's also the best selling album worldwide. Not even america's so-called sweetheart taylor swift could match their global sales. How could Bts not be a phenomenon? They went on a GLOBAL STADIUM TOUR last year, how many other american artists did that off the top of your head???? Bet you can't name even one. But that's not a phenomenon right? Only korean americans would be into them. Guess the world is only full of Asians packing stadiums then. English isn't even the first language in many countries yet you don't question why your american artists are welcomed and their music is enjoyed in other countries, but when it's Asians and bts and kpop we need to dissect it like a dead frog in a high school biology class. All the records their previous 3 #1 albums in the US broke (since I realize this video was done much earlier this year) no other american/non-american artist had been able to achieve that. Jeff really needs to update his music knowledge because clearly the world is passing him by while he's stuck in a time machine lost in the past.
Not just those, Jackson 5, the supremes, temptations, have been created under the exact same formula
@@pppLT19 I mentioned more recent groups since those are usually who they get compared with or to. But yes you are right about those older ones as well.
Seriously, Jeff? This 64yo US ARMY is ashamed of your ignorance
I don’t remember Jimin drinking a beer ever being a scandal. They drink alcohol on camera all the time???
All I remember were fans telling the girl who was drinking and playing with jimin and his friend to not post him since he was on vacation if I’m remembering correctly
@@jessicalovett561 i wasn't army last year so I don't understand what the problem is. can u explain it to me pls, was because he was drinking with a girl like a date or something like that?
@@marielroman6717 he was out with friends, met some other people. They were all sitting at a table in al place that could look like a restaurant, not nightclub type place. Nothing unusual about it. korea has a strong drinking culture. Anyways those "other people" decided to film them having a good, slightly inebriated time and posted it. It was unfair to Jimin who was being funny and adorable overall, playing games. It was a violation. As expected, unfortunately many people saw this and reacted adversly towards Jimin.
I'm honestly so angry that videos like this even have to exist. there's so much freaking xenophobia and flat out racism around kpop it's unreal. I appreciate the few on this panel who knew what they were talking about, but the overall tone pushing kpop as manufactured, fake, and a fad is so disappointingly cliche and tired, especially if you are talking about bts. it's the same old gatekeeping rhetoric.
The difference of BTS impact in the US compared to the whole KPOP is so huge by thousand and thousand miles.
Is this what Namjoon was referring to... debate about what is Kpop?
Huh?
in the TIME magazine interview, right? i think so! more discussions about what k-pop is are definitely needed, especially on larger scales. so i guess this is a step.
I love how RM n BTS become more bold in US interviews.
Jeff is embarrassing. He's a great example of ignorance meeting arrogance.
BTS broke barrier but not KPOP, they are not all of KPOP that's my stand on this. I enjoy this discussion very much so.
exactly
Lmao this white dude talking about how bts have no true impact while he’s here in a meeting discussing them,,,, ok.
And know for a fact that "international" is not "American". BTS have conquered the Korean scene, International scene INCLUDING America. Your debate has to include valid points not partial opinions. I'm honestly very much disappointed with this kind of discussion. Learn and do bit of research on Korean music next time .
Jeff, are you really that threatened by the success of Korean musicians that you’d do anything to diminish their impact? Don’t worry, no matter how much you try, they will still succeed above you. No one will remember your name but BTS will be remembered by millions of people around the world in history. Keep talking! No one cares.
BTS has taken off in America. No other Korean group has the impact of BTS, no other Korean group was able to sell out 15 stadiums in America also multiple stadiums in Brasil, Wembley, Paris, Saudi Arabia. BTS has also sky rocketed this year in Japan, which is the second important music market after US. That Jeff 'expert" dude is living under a rock. 90% of the audience of BTS concerts are not Asians or Koreans. Also, these people were interviewed back in February, so why is New Yorker releasing this video at the end of 2020, I wonder?? (Right after BTS has received a much deserved Grammy nom??)
Good question!
Does that man realise that BTS penetrated music markets that even American musicians could only dream of. Map of the Soul is the most successful international album 2020 in my country. They beat every American Album. This man has to understand that America is not the only country in the world and that BTS are more successful worldwide than most American artists
I would like to see the same panel discussing exclusively about BTS popularity, success and musicality
Yeahh i want them react to BTS music too including b-sides with translations. I want to see their faces when they realized how much they missing out this amazing group with amazing artistry of their music!
It is sad that some of the "experts" chosen to discuss kpop truly knew nothing about the culture. As an ARMY i also find it not only insulting to BTS, but all kpop acts to say the time they take to have contact is purely just a "fan service." You constantly showed J Hope's moments shared with ARMY with zero context behind the posts calling it "fan service." One photo you showed was posted strictly to BTS's own fan page sharing with ARMY that Mickey (his dog) was getting older and he was worried/sad about it. That post is not something people would say is a "fan service". Also its sad that none of these "experts" spoke about lyrical impact. Just clumping all the songs into a "sounds exactly the same cant tell people apart" group. Ask any fan of any Kpop act and i am sure you would not hear that statement made, it also insults the musical talent of all kpop artists. Instead of showing kpop respect this honestly was often very insulting. Saying that they strive to be all the same clearly shows your extreme lack of journalistic research when many groups strive to show the differences of there members. Saying that fans are "buying" the idols? Do you even listen to yourselves?! Ms Choi was really the only one id listen to.
If you're going to do something like this again kindly get people that actually did their research, this was bathed in ignorance and such thinly veiled distaste for kpop in general.
I actually liked the Asian woman and Black woman
for me the rest of the experts were actually amazing except that man in black he's so in denial
22:53 he's a grown man, we have seen them drink alcohol multiple times before, why would that ever be a problem for anyone?
7:32 The highlighted individual is not Chinese, yet she was singled out when the speaker spoke about Chinese members. This is a group with a Thai member.
I think they meant to highlight Lisa as a Thai member, but the person doing the editing mistook Jisoo for Lisa. Apparently they aren't familiar with Blackpink. 🤷♀️
@@ot7fam896 jisoo isnt Chinese either. Jennie is
@@WE__BTS Jennie isn't Chinese. She's Korean.
OF COURSE it’s the middle age white man who has to down play BTS as having a “little success.” Of course it’s the middle age white man who has to make fun of what the female panelist is saying “omg, they were on Ellen?”
Why would you pick an "expert " like the Clive Davis guy whose company is in direct competition with kpop , particularly BTS?? Clearly his takes are full of bias lol
Gosh, I love the way Dr Chrystal Anderson put the smack down on that guy at the end - her point that, you know what, while there is prestige associated with making it big in the US, K-Pop does not need the US, the US is not the centre of the world was 🔥🔥🔥
International =/= American
some people forget than bts was already selling out concert tickets in south america, europe, asia and the US before they were even invited to the bbmas back in 2017
For something labeled as "experts", that Jeff man saying that only BTS fans will like BTS is the most incorrect thing EVER. The fact that they're able to pull in fans simply by their live performances on award or TV shows, or by their speeches, or fancams...that's proof that just because this yt man doesn't like them, doesn't mean that so many other people haven't easily fallen in love with them over the years.
You are so right! I am an american adult who was not born a “fan.” I saw a performance and became a fan. Why act like there is a preordained limit to BTS’s fans. The number grows daily.
This Rabhan guy (whom I've never heard of by the way) talking about how BTS isn't a phenomenon when they have literally shaped and shifted how western artist have started to sell their albums/music... Now many of them are selling various albums, vinyls, and etc with different covers for increase in sells as well as inserting little photos as collectables (ie. like photocards that can be found in kpop albums). The only difference is that BTS has been able to sell music and not merch bundled with music to be able to attain their #1 on Hot100 and Top200. So yes they are a PHENOMENON (and not just a fad) that has been able to sustain themselves thru physical copies unlike their western counterparts whom rely heavily on streams and playlists.
Additionally, he's statement saying that BTS can only sustain themselves successfully through the Asian-American market which is borderline derogatory/xenophobic towards them cause it alludes to that only Asian can like this type of music. I can assure you as a 26 year old Mexican-American women who was raised predominantly with Spanish speaking parents that I full heartedly love their music and what they invoke through their message. Just like Latin artists were once deemed outsiders in the music industry they have slowly broken down the walls built by white English speaking gatekeepers.
So basically the kpop industry is like the American music industry... but in another language.
This was a very interesting discussion, the three women's points of view were pretty great. That being said, i disagree with everything Jeff Rabhan said.
This discussion just confirmed that BTS can't be considered Kpop anymore since they are an exception to 90% of the arguments presented here.
that tisch guy came off as extremely condescending not only on the way he was talking out kpop and BTS’s success but also in the way he was talking and responding to some of the women in this interview. The sarcastic tone when talking about BTS’s interview on Ellen was so unnecessary.
This is so cringe-worthy and out of touch that it’s painful.
I'm not even a kpop fan but jeff fits the boomer stereotype perfectly
Wanna check how many "international" (read: American) artists chart as high as BTS over here in Europe, experts? We're also "the West", right?
Even in India, there are people who adore K Pop! It is truly a force to reckon with! Their power is not limited or constrained by a so - called "market"!
My favourite part of this vid... that Asian woman's laugh at Jeff's comment of bts selling stadiums because of 2M Korean American. 😊
It's kinda hilarious how Jeff Rabhan needs a studio background and condescending tone to seem more authoritative. Anyways, I've been a kpop fan since 2008 and it's only getting more popular. Kpop's been internationally popular since the 90s with HOT, Shinhwa, etc. Kpop will continue to be popular until other countries produce better groups + better fan interaction (variety shows, etc).
2 things: 1) at 7:33 you guys highlighted Jisoo, but were talking about foreign members of kpop groups. As far as I know, Jisoo’s the ONLY member of blackpink who has never lived outside of Korea.
2) As a long time k-pop and history fan, I really loved watching this video. ESPECIALLY the parts when the commentators got into tiny disagreements. Also, loved how you guys pointed out at the end that America, until recently, hasn’t been the main target of Kpop’s reach. It’s been China and Japan.
The New Yorker - at minute 12:13 the subtitles incorrectly state Jimin when the speaker actually says Seokjin. Thank you!
do you do an analysis for every pop act that rises to success or is this treatment reserved only to non american artists?
Holy sh*t this one dude, I am laughcrying TT Has the success of BTS in the US hurt him in some personal way? It certainly feels that way.. Like was he also indicating that those 2m korean americans are the sole reason BTS are out selling and out performing most of their american counterparts on all those other US-charts? The math ain't mathing here bruh
I am pure indian and yes I do listen to BTS songs, jeff need to know more about BTS. Lmao he thinks only korean-american listens to BTS song!! He is totally wrong!! Who put him in this video?? He should be more professional
Why is Jeff so sour on K-pop? lol
BTS and BLACKPINK are not on his list of Money for old rope.
@@robertkim7925
Wrong. Kpop has this fake persona that americans won't buy. Too fake
@@itsbeyondme5560 the u.s. loves fake, constructed artists. Dont be daft.
@@thevirtualjonathan1284
No we don't.
@@thevirtualjonathan1284 I just found out on Twitter that this interview was done in Feb🙃 I wonder what he has to say now that they got 3 #1 bb100 and grammy nom
Cause you know, someone with maybe a “little success” but no real impact gets to be named Entertainer of the Year by Time Magazine. And sell out stadiums across the globe. And have a million people tune in for their live online concert. Cause you know, it’s really only the Korean Americans who like them.
Mr. Rabhan is the best example for how entitled and racist the western music market is. I wish he would be open to educate himself, but he was quite obviously proud of his ignorance. Oh well.
All non-Korean Americans who love and will continue to love BTS, please show your presence.
👇🏼👇🏼👇🏼
22:43 but i don't remember anyone saying anything about the alcohol?? Nobody had a problem with him drinking, that debate just straight up didn't happen lmao. It was about the invasion of privacy which sparked a discussion, or rather everyone just having enough of sasaengs. That's why it blew up a bit
In short they're scared of BTS achievements and success.
No one is doing like them.
Saying the world biggest group has no impact is just embarrassing.
Why is he so proud of his ignorance? I personally think being uninformed or ignorant on a subject is such a big thing, but if you're going to be so bitter and condescending when you yourself are SO SO IGNORANT is just disgusting
BTS are literally pulling all these massive PHYSICAL album sales in a DIGITAL world era. if that does not show how large their audience range is, I don't know what is. Let's be honest who would buy $35 album at this time? Let alone a $70 without bundles? But BTS is really slaying it with these pure sales not just in US but world-wide making it look effortless. Even the mainstream artists right now can't pull those numbers fr.
the lady said it, kpop does not really need America. I'm American but they consider America as not a priority, but just like "why not?"
The audacity of some of these 'experts'...
😂😂😂😭 So I guess I am not a black ARMY any more. I am a korean American. So is my other black friends
Jeff is really, really behind the times....He missed the full sold out stadium tour huh?
this is an absoulutely, disgustingly offensive video. how about americans stop trying to explain what kpop is through their own xenophobic lens and stop talking about people like they're goods to be manufactured and exported. these 'experts' should be ashamed.
LOL the CAUCASITY
U right!
Hmm.. the guy in the black needs to do more research. For a professor he seems stup*d
"Kpop does not need the United States" that could have been the entire video.
This Jeff person sound very uneducated and extremely condescending. Very close minded. He is not expert.
something else these "experts" are missing out is that the audience is hungry for music that they can relate to and this also the reason why BTS stands out among kpop artists & western artists is because they go beyond the usual love themes in pop music or trashy themes in hiphop music. their sound may be pop, hiphop, edm, kpop or whatever but they speak of personal struggles, success, confusion, anxiety, love for their craft, loves for their fans and a vast variety of topics no artist has done. their music & their journey is not only about self-gain and that is touching their audience.
I may disagree with some of the opinions but THANK YOU to the New Yorker for having an intelligent, sincere, and diverse points of views. We really need more serious discourses like this on Kpop!
His comments towards the end about the phenomenon makes me laugh..he still don't get it. Who's gonna tell him.
They sing and look like angels . They dance like the devil. Their lyrics address topics beside getting laid and getting high. They share a connection with their fans that western artists rarely have.
Honestly I’m disappointed in the choice of some of these “ experts”
Jeff Rabhan is the current chair of the Clive Davis Institute of Recorded Music at Tisch School at NYU.... wow, Please Educate Jeff Rabhan again.... He seems to just vomited on the institute's principles. Such bitter man. This is an expert? hahahaha very low bar... racist hypocrite.
Maybe he has Alzhiemers and his brain is stuck in the ancient past??? Or he could just be a hateful old man with no talent of his own.
"They are on Ellen?" The sarcasm and pettiness is really on brand with ya Jeff.
Also other guy talked about PURITY of pop music and most being shown are white (or white passing) musicians. Very telling.
How come he become a professor? Hahaha..where did you buy the title, sir?
it has been interesting to see artists like taylor swift, jonas brothers, and shawn mendes alter their album packaging to have multiple versions and goodies as is traditionally done in kpop albums. many western artists have completely changed the way they interact with fans to mirror k-industry fan interactions/service. And concerts, i’ve seen so many western artists take a page out of the k-industry’s book when it comes to concert tech and format. in talking about the the western/ american perspective of what kpop is and what its impact it’s imperative to take an honest look at the gatekeeping, xenophobia, and racism that is rampant in the US music industry. There is a desire to label everything and put it in boxes, that’s why there is a whole other grammy awards just for latin artists. And every once in awhile the music industry will allow a latin song in through the gate, if they’re feeling frisky that day or as long as it has a feature with a western artist. it mirrors the way they kept rap out of the mainstream and weaponized media to demonize the genre until they could make money off it. the fact that despite that kpop has started to enter american consciousness, speaks to significant impact already
I gave the video a like even though Jeff doesn't really know what he's talking about because everyone else in the video were actual experts on the topic
Experts? These are just opinions. Funny how you release this now considering the Grammys are around the corner. Trying to diminish foreign artists because most American artists lack a change in music. Referring to it all sounds the same or has been done. Studies show majority of fan’s age is 20s to 50s and professionals. Not rabid. Would you consider my parents that are 70 rabid? I don’t think so. Furthermore the stadium’s would sell out across the US not just to a certain demographic. The fans of Kpop music are very diverse in age, color and gender. The messages and story lines within their music are a really interesting aspect as well.
9 minutes in and no mention of the role of Los Angeles and kyopos in LA, listening to hip hop and R&B and church music etc. When I think of early influences & origins there are ties with the diaspora, 1st and 2nd gen jemie kyopos, their language and cultural hybridities/fluidities, coming of age in US and playing a role in culture industries of SK in the 1990s. That, and the yoohaeksaeng studying abroad too.
that dude is the embodiment of xenophobia in the music industry today.
The premise itself to put BTS into discussion in the same category as general kpop is already false. BTS stands on its own so ahead of umbrella term of kpop.
BTS have intertwined storyline throughout their extensive discography, they’re heavily involved in writing lyrics & producing their songs, they deal with much deeper themes and reflections than most Kpop - social political economical issues, self love and mental health, etc.
I appreciated all three women’s perspective. But it was ridiculously funny that two white males were so skeptical/incredulous of human connection through music and authenticity when it is obvious they never even looked into the world of BTS.
The Jeff dude (sorry I can’t consider him professional enough to think of any other title) having the audacity to say that Korean Americans buy their concert tickets and albums was the most absurd ignorant thing I’ve ever heard. I live in Los Angeles, heavily populated with Korean Americans, and none of my Korean American friends are BTS fans. Also none of my friends in Korea are BTS fans either. But I know many White and Latina ARMYs.
I just love all the things that this Jeff guy is saying. He's giving me all the motivation I need to buy more and more BTS music, every time I feel like it's too much, I'll remember my dear guy Jeff and I'll immediately buy some more.
Thank you dear xenophobes of the music industry, you're making BTS even more successful day by day 💜.